The Love Triangle Debate thread of KNEEL BEFORE ZOD OR SUFFER HIS WRATH (ignore the opening posts at your peril) (Round 6)

[The Twilight Mexican]

So, I'm going to make a comment here that I know won't inspire universal agreement: At this point, I fully accept Aerith's date as canon.

One could maybe argue its use in the Ultimania Omega's Story playback as a "placeholder" or some such thing. One could contend that it being the default date in the event of a tie isn't enough. But the preferential treatment it receives is undeniable, and now that we have a direct statement that "the promised date is fulfilled," I don't see any other counterargument.

 

[Danseru-kun]

I've always take Aerith's date as the date that makes most sense anyway.

Now the argument that will come after that is that because it's pictured in the FTOIL page it must be canon as well. Again, I find it hilarious if people will insist the date is canon therefore the FTOIL makes Clerith canon but the HAHW is not so Cloti is not canon.

@Quex
Do the poast in tumblah

 

[Vendel]

So, I'm going to make a comment here that I know won't inspire universal agreement: At this point, I fully accept Aerith's date as canon.

One could maybe argue its use in the Ultimania Omega's Story playback as a "placeholder" or some such thing. One could contend that it being the default date in the event of a tie isn't enough. But the preferential treatment it receives is undeniable, and now that we have a direct statement that "the promised date is fulfilled," I don't see any other counterargument.

Ha.....you get some playing cards and suddenly your world starts changing? When did those come out again? And what information has been released since then which doesn't bother to specify a date?

It's funny that we have caught yet another clerith mangling of a quote. Just leave it at that.

 

[Ryushikaze]

So, I'm going to make a comment here that I know won't inspire universal agreement: At this point, I fully accept Aerith's date as canon.

One could maybe argue its use in the Ultimania Omega's Story playback as a "placeholder" or some such thing. One could contend that it being the default date in the event of a tie isn't enough. But the preferential treatment it receives is undeniable, and now that we have a direct statement that "the promised date is fulfilled," I don't see any other counterargument.

Knock yourself out. I just generally assume they all happen because all of them are given time at some point or another, and, well, the music definitely fits one more than the other.
I kind think you lose something by cutting any of them out, and Cloud going on the gondola four times does not inherently cause any contradictions for the timeline (The four visits to the square, maybe), like some other instances of variable scenes would.

 

[Kittie]

So, I'm going to make a comment here that I know won't inspire universal agreement: At this point, I fully accept Aerith's date as canon.

One could maybe argue its use in the Ultimania Omega's Story playback as a "placeholder" or some such thing. One could contend that it being the default date in the event of a tie isn't enough. But the preferential treatment it receives is undeniable, and now that we have a direct statement that "the promised date is fulfilled," I don't see any other counterargument.

I believe you're right, Tres. Looking back on it now, I also agree with the Clerith date being canon. In a way, it ties in very fittingly with Cloud’s “I think I can meet her there” line. I’ve considered the possibility before, but now I can’t help but take it that he meant that Aerith could finally meet the real Cloud and not the pseudo-persona one from the first disc. Compilation-wise, I’m not for sure if this still ties in with the OG, but the connection from the OG can still be interpreted here.

I've always take Aerith's date as the date that makes most sense anyway.

Now the argument that will come after that is that because it's pictured in the FTOIL page it must be canon as well. Again, I find it hilarious if people will insist the date is canon therefore the FTOIL makes Clerith canon but the HAHW is not so Cloti is not canon.

And I’m afraid that will be the inevitable outcome, Danseru-kun. I imagine that some will ignore SE's confirmation of the "favor" Cloud and Tifa share with each other during the HAHW scene, and just focus on the Clerith date being canon. Why can't both just simply be accepted as canon? Is it really so terrible for both to be? (Sighs.)

 

[Ryushikaze]

I believe you're right, Tres. Looking back on it now, I also agree with the Clerith date being canon. In a way, it ties in very fittingly with Cloud’s “I think I can meet her there” line. I’ve considered the possibility before, but now I can’t help but take it that he meant that Aerith could finally meet the real Cloud and not the pseudo-persona one from the first disc. Compilation-wise, I’m not for sure if this still ties in with the OG, but the connection from the OG can still be interpreted here.


And I’m afraid that will be the inevitable outcome, Danseru-kun. I imagine that some will ignore SE's confirmation of the "favor" Cloud and Tifa share with each other during the HAHW scene, and just focus on the Clerith date being canon. Why can't both just simply be accepted as canon? Is it really so terrible for both to be? (Sighs.)

No. Just for the one that confirms C/T. It's like C/T being confirmed would bring about the end of all existence the way some people fight against it so ferociously.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I believe you're right, Tres. Looking back on it now, I also agree with the Clerith date being canon. In a way, it ties in very fittingly with Cloud’s “I think I can meet her there” line. I’ve considered the possibility before, but now I can’t help but take it that he meant that Aerith could finally meet the real Cloud and not the pseudo-persona one from the first disc. Compilation-wise, I’m not for sure if this still ties in with the OG, but the connection from the OG can still be interpreted here.

You know, I have never heard that suggestion before, but I love it. It actually makes a great deal of sense. Both of them used the same term for meeting (&#20250, and you know that had to be deliberate. The line in the ending could have easily been written a different way -- this seems especially apparent in light of the new Ultimania showing us that those lines Cloud and Tifa exchange were originally going to be very different.

Ha.....you get some playing cards and suddenly your world starts changing? When did those come out again? And what information has been released since then which doesn't bother to specify a date?

It's funny that we have caught yet another clerith mangling of a quote. Just leave it at that.

I believe the cards (which aren't part of a card game, by the way, so not playing cards) came out in 2001. And, yeah, other stuff has actually come out since then that shows the date with Aerith receiving preferential treatment (e.g. Story Playback sections in Ultimanias).

In any case, these cards aren't "changing my world," as you put it. I've been of the opinion that the Aerith date is clearly SE's preference for a long time now. It's just nice to have a direct statement to the effect that a particular date took place. Keeping in mind the same card set states that the High Affection Highwind scene happened.

Knock yourself out. I just generally assume they all happen because all of them are given time at some point or another, and, well, the music definitely fits one more than the other.
I kind think you lose something by cutting any of them out, and Cloud going on the gondola four times does not inherently cause any contradictions for the timeline (The four visits to the square, maybe), like some other instances of variable scenes would.

They contradict one another in that all of them couldn't have been the 100th couple at Event Square, yes. While the gondola rides have no contradiction between one another, all those rides are preceded by visiting the Event Square and succeeded by catching Cait Sith passing the Keystone off to Tseng.

 

[Ryushikaze]

They contradict one another in that all of them couldn't have been the 100th couple at Event Square, yes. While the gondola rides have no contradiction between one another, all those rides are preceded by visiting the Event Square and succeeded by catching Cait Sith passing the Keystone off to Tseng.

Yeah, you can't have the whole of the sequence four times, but Cloud getting called out of his room and being forced to ride the gondola four times could happen, and that's the part I assume did.
Though, it is possible they all could have been the 100th couple, so long as it was each 100th couple or every couple was the 100th or something equally screwy. I've seen such gimmicks employed at parks before.
Also, I'm imagining a almost slapstick sequence where Cait Sith hands off the stone three times only for Cloud to get it back and tell him not to do it again before finally just no longer giving a shit during his final 'date' with Barret.

But yeah Cloud going on four Gondola rides, that's different than having a continuity in which Vincent does and does not come along to the fight with Hojo. That's an inherent contradiction of itself.

And none of that is to say I don't think Aerith's date works best for the narrative, it does. It's just the rest of the dates work so well for character development it's a damn shame to lose any of them. Especially Barret's

 

[Danseru-kun]

And I’m afraid that will be the inevitable outcome, Danseru-kun. I imagine that some will ignore SE's confirmation of the "favor" Cloud and Tifa share with each other during the HAHW scene, and just focus on the Clerith date being canon. Why can't both just simply be accepted as canon? Is it really so terrible for both to be? (Sighs.)

Just to be clear, I'm not yet fully convinced that the Aerith date is canon, it's pretty close though. Even though it receives preferential treatment, the same Ultimanias point out to other versions and the FTOIL didn't give it the same treatment as the HAHW scene. I find it as SE keeping the date game to have a non-canon outcome.

I'll take it like the SaberxShirou (Fate) pairing in the Fate franchise. Technically it's just as canon as ShirouxSakura (HF) and ShirouxRin (UBW) but the franchise has an obvious bias to Saber being the main heroine/love interest. The Fate route can be the canon one but it's not definite.

Cloud being picked by Don has a preferential treatment too as far as I know.

 

[supergumbo]

Just to be clear, I'm not yet fully convinced that the Aerith date is canon, it's pretty close though. Even though it receives preferential treatment, the same Ultimanias point out to other versions and the FTOIL didn't give it the same treatment as the HAHW scene. I find it as SE keeping the date game to have a non-canon outcome.

I'll take it like the SaberxShirou (Fate) pairing in the Fate franchise. Technically it's just as canon as ShirouxSakura (HF) and ShirouxRin (UBW) but the franchise has an obvious bias to Saber being the main heroine/love interest. The Fate route can be the canon one but it's not definite.

Cloud being picked by Don has a preferential treatment too as far as I know.

I agree. The Aerith date may have preferential treatment, but the FTOIL page also explicitly states that it is up to Cloud's actions (Aerith's name was not even mentioned). In the memorial scenes, all four of the candidates have their date. SE, as far as they are concerned, are still keeping the Gold Saucer date as something optional. If people are going back to the cards as to "confirm" the Aerith date as canon, then people by the same token can go back to Ultimania Omega and say Cloud's response to Marlene was optional. As far as I'm concerned, Cloud's date with Barret is "canon" because it's the hardest one to get.

 

[Kittie]

Just to be clear, I'm not yet fully convinced that the Aerith date is canon, it's pretty close though. Even though it receives preferential treatment, the same Ultimanias point out to other versions and the FTOIL didn't give it the same treatment as the HAHW scene. I find it as SE keeping the date game to have a non-canon outcome.

I'll take it like the SaberxShirou (Fate) pairing in the Fate franchise. Technically it's just as canon as ShirouxSakura (HF) and ShirouxRin (UBW) but the franchise has an obvious bias to Saber being the main heroine/love interest. The Fate route can be the canon one but it's not definite.

Cloud being picked by Don has a preferential treatment too as far as I know.

I can see where you're coming from on SE keeping the dates ambiguous with all of them being mentioned in the Ultimanias, Danseru-kun. My headcanon still says that all of them happened, because I simply love the Barret and Yuffie dates. Tifa's date certainly fits with "Interrupted by Fireworks" playing during the Gondola ride, just as Aerith's works with the bargain she makes with Cloud at the beginning of the game. They can all fit into the game, certainly, especially Tifa and Aerith's. At this point, though, I believe Aerith's date fits the storyline best, but I am still rather partial to the other dates, especially Tifa's.

And, yes, if SE gave us official confirmation on Little Miss Cloud being picked by Don Corneo, I would be so incredibly happy!

 

[Danseru-kun]

All the gondola rides can happen because I think you can still take your party members in there at some point in the game (am I right?) I agree with Ryu that the 100th's couple tactic can be used by the park.

Again, Aerith's date makes more sense, but it doesn't get a preferential treatment like the HAHW scene.

 

[robotwarui]

So, I'm going to make a comment here that I know won't inspire universal agreement: At this point, I fully accept Aerith's date as canon.

I agree, not necessarily because of the Ultimanias, but because Aeris' date is more important to the narrative.
If FFVII were a movie, the other dates would be on the cutting room floor, possibly just shown for fun during the credits. Maybe Tifa's date dialogue would be written in somewhere else "Cloud, I... " if they had to, if there wasn't already enough in there to show the audience how she feels for him.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Good points all around. I guess I'm convinced, but I can see why there's still wiggle room.

 

[supergumbo]

And as an addendum to Marlene's memorial, just to add some more fuel to the LTD (because why not), the scene is under Marlene's perspective. It is about Marlene's good perspective to the feelings of both females (Aerith and Tifa) involved. Her "I won't tell Tifa!" response merely indicates her understanding that Tifa can be hurt (going back to her sharp intuition on women) and this is on the condition Cloud says "let's hope so". It doesn't make a direct statement on who Cloud favors (that statement is under Tifa's memorial btw).

Good points all around. I guess I'm convinced, but I can see why there's still wiggle room.

Hey, if SE ever made a FFVII movie, I fully agree Aerith's date will be the one to be used. It's just that when a portion of the game is so heavily interactive and influenced by players' decisions, it can be hard to pin-point whether any one event is truly canon. That is unless they make it canon by directly saying so.

 

[JayM]

Post it to tumblr! LET THE WAR BEGIN ANEW, haha... If you want to use my translation you can, or if you or anyone else would like to re-translate that is also fine. If you want to use mine tho, I'd like to polish it just a little bit if that's okay.

Is Faint Memories okay? Like the original translation used?

I think so, though with what hito said in the post right after yours, there's probably a better way to phrase it in English that gets the nuance across...I'm just not sure what it might be. Maybe something with echoes... Anyway faint memories is close enough that it shouldn't cause too much controversy. She said naively.

Personally I lean towards the Aerith date as canon too, but I kinda like the idea of all four being canon, if for no other reason than Barret's date is by far my favorite and I agree that it'd be a shame for it to fall by the wayside.

What I wanted to say earlier about Cloud re: Aeris on Disc 1 - we've sort of discussed this before, IIRC, wayyyy back last year or whenever - but she has a significance beyond just being a girl that he may/may not be interested in. She's also The Hero's Girlfriend, both literally as Zack's ex and figuratively in the way that she first appears to Cloud - a healer, a caretaker, and someone to be protected. Regardless of where you fall on the shipping line, Aeris supports the illusion of Cloud's "hero" identity much more than Tifa, who is very physically capable and remembers Cloud when he was a weak little outcast. I think it's easy to read Disc 1 Cloud as preferring Aeris for this reason alone, outside of any chemistry or "world of their own."

Thoughts?

 

[Danseru-kun]

^

I posted it before as my post FFVII assessment some months ago. I think Aerith ending up with Cloud is all part of the illusion. He's the cocky hero and she's the "damsel."

The moment Cloud fell into her church and they escaped Reno, there is an instant chemistry between them that I didn’t see with Tifa. It’s like Aerith, the pretty girl in pink was the obvious love interest while Tifa is the supporting pretty tough girl that will be friendzoned. And it is true that meeting Aerith does send Cloud and the party into a series of events that will set their path for the entire game.

Aerith, being also the flirty very forward woman was scoring points with Cloud while Tifa was just there trying to aid him in whatever way she can. It’s also a bonus that Aerith was the last Cetra and Cloud resembled her first love thus setting new mysteries and plot advancement. What match can a childhood friend who has no special bloodline like Tifa to a heroine like Aerith who has a much grander role? Moreover, Aerith’s date was the default one.

When Tifa was just there being with Cloud, Aerith was separated from him when she went to the Forgotten Capital. This sets up a “man chasing a woman” feel to the game, especially when Cloud was running towards her in their dream.

Now when Cloud was supposed to reunite with Aerith the next step in the formula is ta love confession but then she was murdered. To many people, this is a classic romance cut short by evil.

I saw things differently. I think Aerith’s death was part of shattering the illusion. Aerith, the girl in the dress, the healer, the destined one was not just meant to be merely the love of the hero. She was to symbolize the harshness and realism of death and yet she would be a heroine that would triumph over evil because she was able to accomplish her mission. Despite this Aerith was able to see the real Cloud, she was able to love the real him under the illusion but she did not live long enough for her to see him come out of his shell. But when she could not be with him in life, her spirit continued to watch over him. It seems that when illusions can’t get in Aerith’s way, death can’t stop her also.

On Cloud’s part, the cocky hero was just an illusion formed from his best friend that was Aerith’s first love. I think the illusion that Aerith would be alive and together with Cloud comes with the shattering of the illusionary Cloud. He was nobody, probably just a clone, his memories of being a great SOLDIER were false and he’s lost his sense of himself.

Then Tifa comes in. True she does not possess the appearance of a healer like Aerith and was a fighter but she was the one who wanted to support Cloud and be by his side. So again, this is another illusion shattered. Tifa wasn’t just an action girl that is an accessory, she was to support Cloud not in combat alone but in finding his true self. She’s not meant for something that of a grand scale like Aerith’s role, but her role is a small, tender and intimate one with Cloud in the Lifestream when they shared bared their souls together.

Also, she was always there for Cloud from the beginning to the end, when he’s weak and when he’s strong, juxtaposing the fact that Cloud was the one who promised to help her when she’s a pinch. She wanted to be the damsel but she fought right beside him. She believed that he could be someone great way before anybody thought he could be. And she did get her wish and Cloud was also able to fulfill his promise to her.

Also, the real Cloud was just like her; extraordinary people from a simple background. The real Cloud wasn’t an accomplished SOLDIER but a country boy wanting impress a girl but failed. they were ordinary people who were victimized by Shinra and was forced to fight on because of what happened to them. Yet this simple, supposedly unimpressive but real Cloud was actually stronger than his illusion, defeating Sephiroth as he is.

 

[Selphie Tilmitt]

Or ... people could go back to earlier materials to show alternative options for the Highwind scene Let's not Let's not do the whole thing where people don't accept different sources for information/validity to the extent some don't accept a specific source with information supporting their pairing in it because there's information supporting the other pairing there too either

Ok, Hawkeye said something about the Cloud and Aerith date in an Ultimania Omega or something but I'm not sure/don't remember the details of that exactly/what that entails? I had a quick look with search elsewheres but I'm not sure if I found the right thing, since there are so many Ultimanias and such it's hard to keep track of them sometimes I think I did find this -

http://i49.tinypic.com/20go6k2.jpg *waves @ Cloud/Tifa promise/well scene too* Ok the Ultimanias, the cards are official Square Enix stuffs, what about Dismantled, does that work with/from the source materials as well or? I read it references the Cloud and Aerith date in a sort of story playback form as well where Aerith says something about enjoying the date and the view from the Gongola or something, and earlier in the story she says something about two dates or something. Do you have Dismantleds Hawkeye? If so is there any Cloud/Tifa stuffs in there as well? I'm genuinely curious since if there is I haven't seen it, where when/I wouldn't and if there is it should be bandied about and ... nvm ninjad!

 

[Danseru-kun]

Or ... people could go back to earlier materials to show alternative options for the Highwind scene Let's not Let's not do the whole thing where people don't accept different sources for information/validity to the extent some don't accept a specific source with information supporting their pairing in it because there's information supporting the other pairing there too either

Of course, all information should be dealt with the same standards bit we should look at how this is presented. The HW scene and date has different treatments.

The HW scene has never featured its LA version all by itself. Whenever the scene mentioned, it's usually the HA version exclusively. The LA version had only been mentioned three times and its always indicated right after the HA version. The HA version however has been referenced exclusively in the Ultimanias by around 8 times already.

The Aerith date has more references than any other date, but the same Ultimanias write as if the other dates had happened, putting them all in the character profiles or listing them all with equal treatment. Different versions of the date are featured separately in different pages.

As for other references, Tifa's "Word's aren't the only way" is twice mentioned in Dissidia and in her playing card, and quite possibly, that's why I'm begging people to purchase Tifa, in her Theatrhythm lines. Aerith's "I want to meet you line" is referenced in her card and in Theatrhythm and her date is in Dismantled (which I don't consider canon because of contradictions with CC.)

There is an argument that Dismantled also points out to the HAHW scene because Cloud's internal monologue says this: "Moreover, I have Tifa at my side. I am not fighting alone, Tifa has taught me this."

Then look at here:

Cloud "I dunno... But... Whether they can or not, we still have to do what we can. And believe in ourselves.. I’ll find the answer some day, as long as I keep trying.”

"I dunno... But... Whether they are or not, we still have to do what we can. And believe in ourselves... Someday we'll find the answer. Right, Tifa? That's what I learned from you when I was in the Lifestream."

I think to say fairly early on, the Aerith date had more references, but the most recent Ultimanias released spammed us with the HAHW confirmations especially the FTOIL but it didn't give the Aerith date the same boost.

Again, I think SE is biased to the Aerith date over all other dates, but it's doesn't have the same bias in the HAHW scene. Of course again, this is not about what gets the more quotes or attention, it's about how the information is presented. Unless the Aerith date is mentioned exclusively in a guidebook, I can't fully agree that its canon.

 

[Splintered]

Yeah, but the date isn't just given "one or two mentions," it's usually the one referenced. There can be some variability, but for all intents and purposes, it's treated much differently from the other dates.

That and I'm pretty sure there are some ulti quotes that specifically state that Aerith knew something was wrong with Cloud. And the only real reference you get from that is the date, where she specifically mentions "I want to meet the real you." It has real implications, as oppose to Tifa's date since we know pretty much throughout the game that the girl can't spit it out, and while both Barret and Yuffie's date are played more for laughs and isn't really mentioned again.

Meh, it just makes much more sense to me if the date was canon.

 

[supergumbo]

Yeah, but the date isn't just given "one or two mentions," it's usually the one referenced. There can be some variability, but for all intents and purposes, it's treated much differently from the other dates.

That and I'm pretty sure there are some ulti quotes that specifically state that Aerith knew something was wrong with Cloud. And the only real reference you get from that is the date, where she specifically mentions "I want to meet the real you." It has real implications, as oppose to Tifa's date since we know pretty much throughout the game that the girl can't spit it out, and while both Barret and Yuffie's date are played more for laughs and isn't really mentioned again.

Meh, it just makes much more sense to me if the date was canon.

I think the Barret date works out because it shows Cloud as a complete dunce when it comes to women. But Aerith's date does have the most significance in terms of the storyline, I agree.

EDIT: Ah, I forgot, that event comes after the date. Sorry, I got my timelines messed up.

 

[Ryushikaze]

This has been niggling at my brain for about a day, so correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the same set of collectable cards which references the Aerith date also reference Tifa's 'Words aren't the only way' line?

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Indeed. It's this card:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v132/Squall_of_Seed/FFArtMuseumTifa.jpg

 

[Danseru-kun]

What does Tifa's card say? :3

Pweeaasee ^^,

BTW some people in tumblr are not seriously accepting the card as the proof of Aerith's date... we know why

They still argue that Dismantled canonizes the date, even if it's contradictory to Crisis Core.

 

[Dashell]

Me when I saw that:

But as I've said before, the card itself doesn't make the date canon, it's a bunch of things all together. I should have said "MORE PROOF" instead of just "proof"

I translated Tifa's card earlier. Copy/Past:

This is from those Final Fantasy art collection cards. I redid Tifa's and I think it's sweet:

ティファは固く口を閉ざす… アバランチのメンバーとしてクラウドと再会した彼女は、 ５年前のニブルへイム事件の時からのクラウドの変貌に疑問を抱く。 クラウドへの幼なじみを超えた複雑な想いは、 クラウドの持つ内面的なトラウマを解きほぐしていく…。 それは、 攸女自身の過去への旅でもあった…

Tifa keeps her mouth shut tight. As a member of AVALANCHE she was reunited with Cloud. She holds doubts about his transformation after the Nibelhiem incident 5 years ago. Her complicated feelings for Cloud that exceeded childhood friendship unravel the internal trauma Cloud possesses. That was also a journey into her own past...

"You really, really are..... you... right?"
She asks Cloud when surrounded by Cosmo Candle.

"Cloud... Words aren't the only thing that tell people what you're thinking..."
Said to Cloud, when the two are left alone the night before the final battle

I wanna point something out here to. クラウドの持つ内面的なトラウマを解きほぐしていく

解きほぐして - that whole thing is the unravel part of the verb (which can also mean to relax someone). It ends in て which is te. And the next part is いく which is iku. When a verb ends in its te forum and iku follows it takes off from the present or another point in time and goes into the future. (SOURCE) In other words, her complicated feelings that exceed childhood friendship which we all know is that of love not only helped Cloud in the lifestream but also go into the future and unravel his trauma there.

So these feelings are pretty damn important to Cloud then AND in the future to unravel all his trauma