The Love Triangle Debate thread of KNEEL BEFORE ZOD OR SUFFER HIS WRATH (ignore the opening posts at your peril) (Round 6)

[Kittie]

I don't normally get into the LTD, simply because of the ugliness it inspires in some people, but I have to say that I'm personally glad that Marlene's memorial words suggest that Cloud at least shows an interest in Aerith at that point in the game. That really harks back to the quote of Kitase liking the idea of the hero wavering between the two heroines who are both vying for his heart. Love triangles certainly have a tendency to do that; although, for Cloud's part, I believe he stops wavering by the Lifestream event.

I understand that his conversation with Marlene has an optional outcome, but if the "I won't tell Tifa!" response is considered "canon," would it also suggest that the much dreaded HAHW scene is canon, too, since it's referenced in the same Ultimania, and isn't mentioned as having a variation for that scene? Of course, I'm sure that some will argue the latter still being optional, and is left entirely open to interpretation.

But thanks for this awesome translation, Tres; it's a good thing to help cap this idea on the "only girl" Cloud preferred business.

 

[Dashell]

まわす literally means "to turn," but it can be used to mean things like "to give" or "to tell" -- basically, "to present."

Okay I think I gotcha... I was wondering if it was "put to good use" or anything like that since that's apparently a definition. That makes sense though, I like your explanation better XD

i think people are going to believe the things they want to and doubt the ones that don't fit with their views. not that it's limited to one side, it just seems that one is more prominently vocal in their disagreement. (or maybe you don't notice when you're only on one 'side', idk)

TBH I always double check everything to form my own opinion It's just easier that way.


So anyway...

in B4 vendel

 

[Splintered]

You know that Tres guy? He's fucking fishy and obviously corrupt. He's only been translating for the fandom a couple of years and wrote a whole bunch of non LTD related articles long before TLS. None of that matters, because he obviously isn't as good as a translator as MINE.

Oh wait, is that a translation for my otp, it's perfect!<3

Nevermind that it was one line in an entire host of other translations done. Isn't it funny that credibility is only derived from that one quote, but there a couple of other dozen quotes someone could have checked? Why not double check his quote on Necron? Not unless, credibility only matters when it comes to LTD stuff. Hurr,

 

[Danseru-kun]

Now I have to post that juicy Clerith info in tumlbr ^^, Of course I will put the lovely:

translated by TresDias from thelifestream forums

Well I predict the possible bastardization of this line is that because the word koui is found in the sentence, IT MUST BE TWO SIDED

 

[Splintered]

Man, Tifa will be so jealous that Aerith and Cloud are going to be business partners.

Has it been too long to make that joke?

Well I predict the possible bastardization of this line is that because the word koui is found in the sentence, IT MUST BE TWO SIDED

Isn't the fact that he said "Let's hope so" signify that on some level, the attraction is returned?

 

[Dashell]

Or maybe, JUST MAYBE, Cloud was answering the irritating questions of a child in a manner that many adults choose to use when they aren’t really interested in what the child is actually saying.

I don’t know. Let’s hope so.

I can’t tell you how many times I’ve heard variants of both sentences, sometimes even used together, when I asked my mother/father/teacher/aunt/whoever a question that they didn’t care enough to answer.

Psst. C’mere. Let me remind you of something: Cloud is a dick.

Not a bad person, before you go off on your butthurt fan rage rebuttal, but he was a dickhead. He gave short answers when he chose to answer at all, he was evasive, he was callous, he acted like the people around him were idiots. He got over it, but for much of the game, he was an outright ass.

I just have a REALLY fucking hard time believing that this guy was so involved with a conversation with a four year old girl that he was going to give her heartfelt answers either way. Take off the shipping glasses for ten minutes and look at the fucking game you all say you played.

Cloud. The guy we controlled for so many hours. That guy. Blonde hair, big sword. That one? Remember him?

Okay.

Now.

Would that guy really give a flying fuck what a child thought of him? Would that guy really give enough consideration to her words that he would carefully construct his answers to show his potential affection for a woman that he knew for only a few days?

Or would he just say “I don’t know.” or “I hope so.” to get her to shove off and leave him the fuck alone?

 

[supergumbo]

I don't normally get into the LTD, simply because of the ugliness it inspires in some people, but I have to say that I'm personally glad that Marlene's memorial words suggest that Cloud at least shows an interest in Aerith at that point in the game. That really harks back to the quote of Kitase liking the idea of the hero wavering between the two heroines who are both vying for his heart. Love triangles certainly have a tendency to do that; although, for Cloud's part, I believe he stops wavering by the Lifestream event.

I understand that his conversation with Marlene has an optional outcome, but if the "I won't tell Tifa!" response is considered "canon," would it also suggest that the much dreaded HAHW scene is canon, too, since it's referenced in the same Ultimania, and isn't mentioned as having a variation for that scene? Of course, I'm sure that some will argue the latter still being optional, and is left entirely open to interpretation.

But thanks for this awesome translation, Tres; it's a good thing to help cap this idea on the "only girl" Cloud preferred business.

Agreed. Let's step back and put ourselves in Cloud's shoes for a moment. Cloud is still a single guy, a bachelor for all purposes. He's with his supremely hot, beautiful childhood friend he's been crushing on for years (made canon in Ultimania) but cannot find the guts to tell her how he feels. Then he meets this very cute, pretty, bubbly, flirty girl who straight off the bat asks him out, shows a vested interest in him, and probably smells like flowers. He is at a great ease in talking to her, unlike his hot crush whom he can barely look straight in the eye. Remember, Cloud has no idea how strongly Tifa feels for him, unlike us players who can clearly see it through the fourth wall.

At that point in the game, which guy wouldn't be conflicted? Which guy's heart wouldn't waver with the new options that are just now presented? If people can take off their shipper goggles for a moment, this becomes very easy to see. Also, remember that Cloud was still in his messed up SOLDIER persona state, he didn't have a clear identity of who he was.

Good thing for Tifa is that she does manage to win out (again, evidenced by canon). Common sense says there was no way Square(Enix) would leave one of their favorite characters hanging like that (even Cleriths have to admit SE LOVES Tifa). IMO, I feel as if the Clerith ship took one step forward but two steps back. If they are accepting the Marlene Memorial Scene as canon, then they are by the same token admitting everything else about Tifa is canon. Like Splintered says, talk about a catch-22.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

supergumbo: Very well said.

Splintered, Danseru: <3 -- also, no, that joke has not expired yet, Splint.

Que: Who the hell said that? Christ, come on now. This doesn't usually have to be said, but give Clerith its due. It's not like there was no basis whatsoever given to the notion by the game developers.

I mean, goddamn. Cloud's a dick early on, but he's started loosening up by that point. He's just apologized to Elmyra for Aerith being taken and resolved to go after her. Some people he fought beside just died. Tifa and Barret are in some mix of devastation over Sector 7/Jessie and co., but relief as well that Marlene is okay.

And Cloud is going to be a dick to the little kid in the midst of all these other heartfelt, genuine emotions -- when she's talking to him about the person he is about to risk his life to save. Yeah, I really hope this person is kidding.

 

[Kittie]

Agreed. Let's step back and put ourselves in Cloud's shoes for a moment. Cloud is still a single guy, a bachelor for all purposes. He's with his supremely hot, beautiful childhood friend he's been crushing on for years (made canon in Ultimania) but cannot find the guts to tell her how he feels. Then he meets this very cute, pretty, bubbly, flirty girl who straight off the bat asks him out, shows a vested interest in him, and probably smells like flowers. He is at a great ease in talking to her, unlike his hot crush whom he can barely look straight in the eye. Remember, Cloud has no idea how strongly Tifa feels for him, unlike us players who can clearly see it through the fourth wall.

At that point in the game, which guy wouldn't be conflicted? Which guy's heart wouldn't waver with the new options that are just now presented? If people can take off their shipper goggles for a moment, this becomes very easy to see. Also, remember that Cloud was still in his messed up SOLDIER persona state, he didn't have a clear identity of who he was.

Good thing for Tifa is that she does manage to win out (again, evidenced by canon). Common sense says there was no way Square(Enix) would leave one of their favorite characters hanging like that (even Cleriths have to admit SE LOVES Tifa). IMO, I feel as if the Clerith ship took one step forward but two steps back. If they are accepting the Marlene Memorial Scene as canon, then they are by the same token admitting everything else about Tifa is canon. Like Splintered says, talk about a catch-22.

I couldn't have said it better myself, supergumbo, truly. We really do need to keep in mind that someone like Cloud was really messed up in the head on the first disc, and also for part of the second, not to mention he was clearly lacking in the self-confidence department. :\

Really, though, almost anyone in his position would certainly appreciate the kind of attention someone like Aerith gave him. There's a reason for why she's so dear to him, even after he finally manages to put himself back together again. And with this new commentary on Cloud and Tifa holding favor for each other for years, it also adds to his never letting go of his feelings for Tifa, either. He obviously cared for both women and always will, though it may now be in different ways.

And Splintered's absolutely right about the Catch-22. Anything involving the LTD usually is.

But, yes, I do believe we have a clear-cut answer on the LTD, not only because of the 25th Anniversary Ultimania, but also with the OG and the Compilation in general. The beginning of Case of Tifa is quite indicative, in regards to Cloud's feelings for Tifa, and with ACC...Aerith had the chance to keep Cloud in the Lifestream with her, but what does she do? She sends him back to live his life with those who care for him.

Either way, Cloud is one lucky fellow, to have two such wonderful women who care for him so deeply.

 

[Vendel]

If they are accepting the Marlene Memorial Scene as canon, then they are by the same token admitting everything else about Tifa is canon. Like Splintered says, talk about a catch-22.

You must be new here.

I have already seen "TLS (that means all of us I guess) ARE biased. And the childhood feelings quote is wrong because of that bias. But this one is right."

Welcome to delusional shipper 101.



BTW have any of you read "The Clerith Bible" yet? Very moving.

 

[supergumbo]

You must be new here.

I have already seen "TLS (that means all of us I guess) ARE biased. And the childhood feelings quote is wrong because of that bias. But this one is right."

Welcome to delusional shipper 101.



BTW have any of you read "The Clerith Bible" yet? Very moving.

Then the answer is simple: Tell them to shove it.

 

[Dashell]

And Cloud is going to be a dick to the little kid in the midst of all these other heartfelt, genuine emotions -- when she's talking to him about the person he is about to risk his life to save. Yeah, I really hope this person is kidding.

Marlene: I think Aerith likes you
Cloud: Shut the FUCK up!

No but really... yeah... wtf on that for sure.

 

[Danseru-kun]

Man, Tifa will be so jealous that Aerith and Cloud are going to be business partners.

Has it been too long to make that joke?


Isn't the fact that he said "Let's hope so" signify that on some level, the attraction is returned?

I'm talking about simply taking "koui" and ignoring the context of the whole sentence. It happened in "taisetsuna."

Though I agree that at some degree it may show the feelings reciprocated, I dunno personally I've said that to others a lot of times even if I have no genuine attraction to person who likes me.

 

[Dashell]

Though I agree that at some degree it may show the feelings reciprocated, I dunno personally I've said that to others a lot of times even if I have no genuine attraction to person who likes me.

Or... and I'm just gonna throw this out there... Cloud legitimately had feelings for Aerith

 

[Danseru-kun]

Or... and I'm just gonna throw this out there... Cloud legitimately had feelings for Aerith

I think the fact a lot of people are dedicated to that ship for many years points out that there is indeed something. But like the case of Cloti, different people just see different things.

Tbh I still stick to the "Cloud's feelings for Aerith is a mystery" headcanon. I'm not going to outright say that he did have feelings for her, nor I'm going to hold the view that he never had romantic feelings. I still hold that Cloud is horribly messed up in Disc 1 that even though he can love people, the extent of his flirtations/advances may be because of his new persona.

Anyway Clerith being canon is like Reeve/Rufus being canon to me; it wouldn't affect anything I see in Cloti.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Honestly, I'm glad to have a detail like this translated. Both because the degree of devotion certain parties have held onto for the very idea of this pairing warrants some measure of validation beyond just Kitase's comment about Cloud wavering (i.e. a specific scene that can be pointed to for confirmation), and because it's simply preposterous to think Cloud wouldn't have been interested, regardless of his feelings for Tifa.

In any case, with regard to how things shaped up in the end, it is rather telling that Cloud's profile in the book has a scene focusing on the birth of his love for Tifa, her profile details the revelation of their long-held mutual feelings -- and meanwhile, the most Clerithy comment in the book is in Marlene's profile of all places. Not that it isn't a valuable observation, but it all really does speak to what understanding they would like you to walk away with.

 

[Dashell]

How big is Marlene's profile? I know I haven't finished Cait Sith's yet but... I'll totally do that one as well

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Two paragraphs -- one of which I've already shared.

 

[Selphie Tilmitt]

Yes, Cloud is such a dick, that ass. He stayed behind to help Avalanche after Tifa reminded him of the promise, he told Barret to look after/take care of Tifa, he apologised to Aerith for falling on her flowers, he agreed to look after/take care of Aerith as her bodyguard (nodding for the offer of one date! ) , he laughed/smiled/teased/bantered with Aerith exchanging friendly banter with her, he heeded Elmyra's warning about not hurting Aerith and tried to leave without her so she wouldn't be put into anymore danger, he expressed interest in Aerith's past at the park, he goes to rescue Tifa at Wallmarket, he entertains Aerith's silly games in Wall Market and listens to what she has to say/takes her opinion into account on the best way to save Tifa, he dresses as a girl to save Tifa, he lost in it Sector 6 after Aerith was kidnapped, he storms a megalith corperation/super power with the others to rescue Aerith and stuffs, that being one of the main reasons, he gets Barret/Tifa to take Aerith some place safe while he and the remaining others fight the monster to protect Aerith and stuff, more banter between Cloud/Aerith and Cloud/Tifa in the Shinra cells, he shows concern over Aerith and Tifa at Cosmo Canyon, sitting down and questioning them and trying to reassure them and stuff (the only two he does so for! Well I think he might sit down for RedXIII or/and Barret as well actually, just to listen but he doesn't seem worried or try to question/reassure them like he does with the girls or something!), he asks Aerith if she's crying/goes to see if she's ok in the Temple of the Ancients when they find Tseng, he tries frantically to chase after Aerith in his dream, he embraces Aerith close to him when she dies and goes on about her emotions, what they are supposed to do now, he gently lays her to rest in the water, he reassures Tifa over the Illussion of Nibelheim, about her and her words being important to him, he rescues Tifa from falling off the cliff, etc, etc and all the stuff I might have forgotten on what he does for the girls and stuff I mean what an ass really, that dick

Thank you very much for the translation Hawkeye, much appreciated

Spoiler

 

[supergumbo]

Or... and I'm just gonna throw this out there... Cloud legitimately had feelings for Aerith

I agree with you, I really do think he did. But I do see where Danseru is coming from. I know I've said similar things for girls I found cute and was friends with but that I wasn't totally into. It was more of an ego thing, I liked the idea of them warming up to me and liking me haha. Looking at it more clearly today, it is a bit vague on how Cloud himself truly felt, and unless it specifically says how he felt, it's going to be up to interpretation. That's how the LTD works unfortunately . But I have no qualms with people using it as evidence that Cloud had feelings for Aerith. With how close and touchy they got, it seems a bit abnormal to me that the emotions there was not anything more than friendship.

 

[supergumbo]

Two paragraphs -- one of which I've already shared.

And it took Marlene, a 4 yr old, to have greater insight into a Clerith perspective. If only Tifa knew..

 

[Ryushikaze]

I don't think the Marlene quote tells us much about the situation that wasn't already really obvious. Cloud is a heterosexual male. He is attracted to Aerith, and would like her to be interested in him, even if he's not really all that interested in pursuing her, which he really isn't.

 

[Vendel]

So how many Aerith points is "I hope so" worth? Surly more than the time Cloud said only Tifa's opinion maters.

And the little issue we have here is that many of Cloud's actions on the first disk are suspect. The more cocky/arrogant an action seems the less Cloud like it actually is.

Cloud as former soldier who is clearly not emulating Zack in some way, would say "I hope so" or "next to you who wouldn't" or accept a date a payment. The real Cloud has a little more trouble with things like that.

Clearly his brain had trouble processing that type of information pre-lifestream. The man is officially oblivious.

Keeping that in mind this information tells us very little about what Cloud's actual interest level in Aerith was.

Someone come get me when we hear Cloud holds "favor" for Aerith.

 

[Selphie Tilmitt]

Hey Cait Sith's a Clerith too in OG!

Also this is the four year old who somehow manages to manage/keep bar in FFVII's bizarre upside world From the looks of it she certainly mixes drinks better than I can/some people could anyway

Mostly agree with what Hawkeye, Que, etc have been saying here but a fair bit of what supergumbo, Danseru, etc have been saying as well

Spoiler

Like I don't think it interferes with the Highwind scene, the Lifestream scene, etc, Cloud and Tifa , though I do think Cloud having genuine feelings for Aerith makes a lot of other stuffs make more sense (like why didn't he say No UUUUU! the times Aerith brought up the date, when Aerith asked about their compatability, and Cait Sith gave a positive response and such), Tifa having complicated feelings and such for Aerith as another woman and such, over the special bond Cloud had for Aerith that was different from her own then, Cloud's your stupid plan/destroying the world doesn't mean a thing, Aerith is gone, what about us/we thing where he was taking about himself and Aerith, and so on I guess it makes the kiobito thing from CoLW and the engraved in heart/feels Aerith in his heart/kokoro thing also make more sense maybe and the kare/kajono thing too if they kind of were/did/sort of/were dating !? YNM/YMMV

Also makes sense with Cloud's I remember Aerith a lot and Aerith I'll do the rest, and we have to set Aerith's smile free, I mean he remembers stuffs like her smile later so, I think I mean with remembering Aerith but not interfering with Cloud/Tifa.

By the way "Let's mosey"

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

The point, Ven, is that some persona of Cloud's ("Composite Cloud," if you will) can be verified to have had an interest in Aerith. Obviously the memory-recovered Cloud's feelings will be forever mystified, probably even to him, but I don't think trying to prove anything like this about him at that point should be on anyone's docket -- we were deliberately not given that information.