The Love Triangle Debate thread of KNEEL BEFORE ZOD OR SUFFER HIS WRATH (ignore the opening posts at your peril) (Round 6)

[Vendel]

The point, Ven, is that some persona of Cloud's ("Composite Cloud," if you will) can be verified to have had an interest in Aerith.

So Cloud has in interest in Aerith having an interest in him. But he is not interested enough to pick up her interest when she is telling him she has interest?

How interesting.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Not really. He had an interest in Tifa having an interest in him as well, but he sure didn't pick up on that until she said "Do me, Chocobo Head."

 

[Octo]

I'm not a heterosexual male, but I thought it was common knowledge that hetrosexual males consider pretty much all females as potential mates yes? With the exception of say....Queen Brahne or something. Like I'm pretty sure Reeve would totally do Scarlet despite him claiming to 'really hate that broad' /sexism

Anyway I think its pretty clear Cloud was attracted to Aerith, though to what extent I dunno. They didn't have enough time together to find out, and his mind was on other things. But I thought the whole angle of OUR LTD here on TLS was about establishing facts and drawing conclusions from that. Rather than shoulda/woulda/coulda/opinion stuff.

 

[Jiro]

I don't know if I support that theory of yours xD I think a lot of people are attractive but it's not like I have this ever changing list of "potential mates" xD

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I agree with the theory.

Not in a lifelong partner sense, but in a hit-it-and-quit-it kind of way.

 

[robotwarui]

what about us/we thing where he was taking about himself and Aerith,

is that so? if so, i didn't know. i thought he was talking about his (& her) comrades? guess i really didn't think about that. or did i read that wrong?

 

[Ryushikaze]

The theory's incomplete, since it's only considering men's actions, and not women's actions doing the same.

And yeah, there's nothing to suggest Cloud's interest went much beyond ego boost and/or hit it and quit it style interest, if that.

Also, Robotwarui, I always read it as 'we, the living' myself.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Being honest here, I've never understood the reading of it as being about himself and Aerith. If that were the case, he's already answered his own question (i.e. "Aerith will no longer laugh, cry, etc.") -- "we" aren't supposed to do anything, Cloud, since one of "we" won't be doing anything ever again, by your own remarks.

 

[Dashell]

I'm really surprised at some of you here I mean... don't you remember how ridiculous we thought it was when cetain Cleriths said, "Cloud was only intersected in Tifa cause he's a guy/she had boobs" and now you're saying the same about his favor for Aerith?

No, he held favor in Aerith because he was genuinely interested because there was a love triangle going on there. And Aerith deserves more than that IMO. Cloud liked her, it just didn't get too far because she died and he hadn't discovered his true self yet... if none of that had happened, who knows who he would have ended up with. That's really all there is to it

 

[I Am Not Me]

There's a difference between saying a man is interested in a woman because she has huge boobs and saying a man is interested in a woman because he's a man.

Most the things being said here about Cloud being interested in Aerith as a man is the latter.

 

[Shadowfox]

I'm really surprised at some of you here I mean... don't you remember how ridiculous we thought it was when cetain Cleriths said, "Cloud was only intersected in Tifa cause he's a guy/she had boobs" and now you're saying the same about his favor for Aerith?

I thought that claim supposed to be how they were trying to explain Cloud's continued presence in the Seventh Heaven after the game? And the objection to it was because we're told that his feelings for her went beyond skin/boob-deep.

No, he held favor in Aerith because he was genuinely interested because there was a love triangle going on there. And Aerith deserves more than that IMO. Cloud liked her, it just didn't get too far because she died and he hadn't discovered his true self yet... if none of that had happened, who knows who he would have ended up with. That's really all there is to it

I mostly agree with this.

I'm of the opinion that Cloud in disk 1 indicating some interest in the girls' feelings is notable, but I wouldn't take it as a sign that he's actually going to start a romantic relationship with either of them because disk 1 Cloud is... well, (1) he's oblivious, and (2) he's got mental issues.

(Also, in the battle for Cloud's attention, they'd be going up against Sephiroth, and we all know that when that happens, Sephiroth automatically wins.)

 

[Dashell]

Alright so Imma post this here:

I’m currently looking for any Clerith or Clotis who are not camera shy (preferably ones who think the couple they like is the intended couple), and have access to a camera, to assist me with a project. Send me a message if you are interested. I’d like to get about 5 of each but I’m thinking it’ll end up more like 3 or so. Lemme know, thanks.

I’m also looking for people who think neither pairing is canon or intended.

 

[Selphie Tilmitt]

Good luck Que!

Spoiler

I don't really fit into either of those groups as a hybrid/the weird one who thinks both pairings are canon Also my technology is like 10+ years out of date Seriously my phone is like one of those old flip phone things. Also yes I am kind of camera shy, my hearing difficulties don't really help with stuff like that for communicating with people Unless this isn't actually for livecam, wait I don't know why I thought it was now, but just for taking pics of stuff?(I kind of have low self esteem/confidence there too but)

Hawkeye, I know what you mean but since Cloud was distraught at the time I think he probably wasn't thinking of making any sense, just babbling/bursting out words on whatever was at the front of his mind at the time I always read it as what are we going to do/what about us, well we can't do anything because you're gone or perhaps there can be no more us in this material word, (and thus Cloud's pain) that was the tragedy of it for me but yeah Since he'd a) just told Sephiroth his stupid plan/destroying the world didn't mean a thing b) He changed the subject from Sephiroth's stupid plan/the world to Aerith c) He draws Aerith close to him and embraces/cradles/holds/w/e as he says those words the we/us and the what about my pain thing It didn't make sense to me for Cloud to randomly bring Avalanche/saving the world into it when he'd just told Sephiroth the stupid plan of destroying the world didn't mean a thing and had changed the subject to Aerith but. I honestly don't think Cloud cared/gave a jack about the world or what anybody else was going to do/might feel just about what happened to Aerith and his pain/feelings at the time.

Anyway the Japanese text doesn't suggest he's talking about anyone other than himself or Aerith and/or anything other than the personal/informal/intimate style of speech, I posted it earlier, I'll see if I can find it again

Edit -

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/40/aerithone.png/

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/17/aerithfour.png/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hsTgX9njgpE

俺達は……どうしたらいい？この痛みはどうしたらいい？
ore tachiha dou shitara kono iitami ha dou shitara

"I/We/Us....What should/do I/we do?"


Square Enix/English translation " What about us ... What are WE supposed to do? What about my pain"

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Que, message me about whatever it is you're doing. I'm not shy.

Anyway the Japanese text doesn't suggest he's talking about anyone other than himself or Aerith, I posted it earlier, I'll see if I can find it again

俺たちは……どうしたらいい？
(Oretachi ha ... doushitaraii?)

"Oretachi" is simply Cloud's personal pronoun of choice for "I" (ore) + "tachi" (basically: "and more"), so it just means "we." Who the "we" in this sentence is referring to is unclear from the word choice alone. There's nothing about it to indicate whether he means himself and Aerith or himself and the rest of AVALANCHE.

I don't believe any of the Ultimanias quote him on this and explain the sentence, but I will double check.

 

[Kittie]

Okay, so with Marlene's page, we have a possible suggestion of Cloud liking Aerith, but I'm wondering if there is anything in Aerith's profile or even Cloud's that might also suggest anything Clerith-related. It seems more reasonable to me to look in their profiles and find something significant there, than only in Marlene's. This is really beginning to make me wonder now. If this kind of information is found only in Marlene's profile, then what does that leave us with?

 

[Selphie Tilmitt]

Thanks Hawkeye

Hmmm, so it definitely means Cloud is talking in a personal sense/on a personal level on some level with the "personal/informal" I/Ore himself but doesn't confirm himself and who/what? Either way he's taking it personal? Well either way whether it's a personal we as in Cloud/Aerith or a personal Cloud/Avalanche or Cloud/Aerith/Avalanche, I still think it was about Aerith/Aerith's death at the time and not about saving the world or anything since Cloud had just told Sephiroth his stupid plan to destroy the world didn't mean a thing, Meteor hadn't been summoned yet, Cloud and the others didn't know about Holy/the true purpose of the White Materia, at the time. Well obviously Aerith/Aerith's dying would mean a lot to the others too in itself but, ok now I'm confused

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

By "personal pronoun of choice," I mean that's how he refers to himself: ore. Some characters use "watashi," some use "boku," some use "ore," etc. Cloud always uses "ore," Tifa and Aerith always use the more formal "watashi," and so on and so forth.

 

[Ryushikaze]

I'm really surprised at some of you here I mean... don't you remember how ridiculous we thought it was when cetain Cleriths said, "Cloud was only intersected in Tifa cause he's a guy/she had boobs" and now you're saying the same about his favor for Aerith?

No. It's not 'just because he's a guy.' It's normal human- not just male- behavior to be be attracted to other people and consider them as potential (business) partners, without seriously intending to pursue it. There was something there in Aerith that would have attracted Cloud's attention (Her keen ability to gouge people on flower prices, perhaps?), but there's no evidence of anything more serious.

No, he held favor in Aerith because he was genuinely interested because there was a love triangle going on there.

Wrong, wrong and wrong.
Wrong because we still don't have HIS favor for HER stated. Just a quick reply that he hopes she is, which, yes, can be taken for 'favor' of the sort we're discussing, but isn't necessarily. And 'genuinely interested' is so vague and mealy mouthed here. What do you mean by 'genuinely interested?'
Wrong because a love triangle DOES NOT REQUIRE COMMON MUTUAL INTEREST ON ALL POINTS. Yes, it can, but there being a love triangle cannot in and of itself prove that there is.

And Aerith deserves more than that IMO. Cloud liked her, it just didn't get too far because she died and he hadn't discovered his true self yet... if none of that had happened, who knows who he would have ended up with. That's really all there is to it

Probably still Tifa, since A: Cloud's wanted her since before his balls dropped, B: She'd still be instrumental in returning Cloud to his real self, and C: Aerith can be a bitch, but she's not one. I'm pretty sure she'd let the two of them be together (In business).
And made suggest the occasional joint economic venture, if you get my drift.

 

[Sikozu]

Cloud's 'we' referring to himself and Aerith doesn't make enough sense to me. One reason is that Aerith is dead, and although he could have said it because he was distraught/his mind hadn't processed what had happened yet, he'd just acknowledged that Aerith is 'gone' a little bit before.

The other reason is Cloud apparently being clueless about both ladies' feelings for him(the picture that accompanies this quote is a picture of Cloud on one of the dates, so I guess that means he was still none the wiser at that point? He was definitely oblivious on the date with Aerith, and I think that's as close as she came to a confession), so it seems like a big jump from that to Cloud talking about them like they were a couple with plans for the future, because taking it that way implies there was an understanding between them.

I'm open to other possibilities, but I really believe he meant himself and the rest of his comrades. I don't think mentioning them takes anything away from Cloud's personal grief for her, the "Aerith will no longer cry, laugh or get angry" and the tingles/dry mouth/burning eyes tells me enough(the "no longer" part still makes me tear up even after so many times playing through the game).

 

[Kittie]

Cloud's 'we' referring to himself and Aerith doesn't make enough sense to me. One reason is that Aerith is dead, and although he could have said it because he was distraught/his mind hadn't processed what had happened yet, he'd just acknowledged that Aerith is 'gone' a little bit before.

The other reason is Cloud apparently being clueless about both ladies' feelings for him(the picture that accompanies this quote is a picture of Cloud on one of the dates, so I guess that means he was still none the wiser at that point? He was definitely oblivious on the date with Aerith, and I think that's as close as she came to a confession), so it seems like a big jump from that to Cloud talking about them like they were a couple with plans for the future, because taking it that way implies there was an understanding between them.

I'm open to other possibilities, but I really believe he meant himself and the rest of his comrades. I don't think mentioning them takes anything away from Cloud's personal grief for her, the "Aerith will no longer cry, laugh or get angry" and the tingles/dry mouth/burning eyes tells me enough(the "no longer" part still makes me tear up even after so many times playing through the game).

I also agree with this assessment, Sikozu. I've long thought that the "we" was about him and the rest of the group. I didn't really take him as meaning just himself or him and Aerith. I just watched the scene again, and I noticed, at least in the English version, that the "we" is in caps. Judging by that, as well as his conversation with Sephiroth, he's clearly emphasizing that word. I don't think it's a cover for his own feelings since he goes on to mention his own pain. I believe he really means everyone there. Of course, I could be wrong, since Cloud is...well...Cloud. I honestly don't think I'd want to analyze what goes on inside of his head. At least not until the Lifestream event.

 

[JayM]

Ryu, I don't think it weakens the CloTi argument to acknowledge that Cloud might've had feelings for Aeris. I mean - we have the creators' statement that he was oblivious to the ladies' feelings for him. It would've been very easy for them to also point out that he DIDN'T have feelings for anyone but Tifa; they haven't done so.

Which doesn't by itself indicate he must've had feelings for Aeris - I'm well-aware of the logical fallacy there - but I think, with the lack of any such remark, it's not difficult or incorrect to read the Marlene bit as Clerith-y.

But I'm not sure if you were actually arguing with that reading or just with the particular phrasing Que used so er. Imma shut up now.

(Also, in the battle for Cloud's attention, they'd be going up against Sephiroth, and we all know that when that happens, Sephiroth automatically wins.)

And that right there is why I ship C/S way the hell harder than C/A or C/T, mindfucky foeyay be damned. THAT ship I will write goddamn essays on.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Ryu, I don't think it weakens the CloTi argument to acknowledge that Cloud might've had feelings for Aeris. I mean - we have the creators' statement that he was oblivious to the ladies' feelings for him. It would've been very easy for them to also point out that he DIDN'T have feelings for anyone but Tifa; they haven't done so.

Which doesn't by itself indicate he must've had feelings for Aeris - I'm well-aware of the logical fallacy there - but I think, with the lack of any such remark, it's not difficult or incorrect to read the Marlene bit as Clerith-y.

But I'm not sure if you were actually arguing with that reading or just with the particular phrasing Que used so er. Imma shut up now.

Specifically, with the logic she used. While I'm not opposed to the idea that there was a bit more there than just standard interest, Quex was leaping to conclusions, small though they were. Specifically, I was getting on her case for reversing the 'favor' that was stated (Aerith's for Cloud became Cloud's for Aerith, which is not stated. Inferred possibly, not stated.) and for arguing that the love triangle is in and of itself evidence of interest from Cloud towards both parties which it is not and which bugs me to no end because A: If it was, we wouldn't fucking need to have this discussion B: it ignores every other iteration of love triangles and polygons and polyhedrals out there, and C: It far too often leads to the bizarre doublethink of 'It being a love triangle proves he was interested in both Women, except he wasn't interested in Tifa because XYZ.'
So, rather than arguing with the reading, as such, I'm arguing with the path that lead to that reading. I'm a pedant. It's what I do.

And that right there is why I ship C/S way the hell harder than C/A or C/T, mindfucky foeyay be damned. THAT ship I will write goddamn essays on.

Yes, yes, but prettyboy buggery is essentially ship bait. (When hunting for extreme ships, is the line to utter 'we're gonna need a bigger shark?)

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

I was getting on her case for reversing the 'favor' that was stated (Aerith's for Cloud became Cloud's for Aerith, which is not stated. Inferred possibly, not stated.) and for arguing that the love triangle is in and of itself evidence of interest from Cloud towards both parties which it is not and which bugs me to no end

I noticed this, and my first thought was "didn't we mock Anastar for using the fact that a love triangle exists as proof that said triangle has never been resolved?"

 

[Dashell]

Just a quick reply that he hopes she is, which, yes, can be taken for 'favor' of the sort we're discussing, but isn't necessarily. And 'genuinely interested' is so vague and mealy mouthed here. What do you mean by 'genuinely interested?.

What else could it mean if it doesn't mean that he was interested too?

As for genuinely... I might have used the wrong word. Legitimately?.. He had interest in her for real...? The feelings weren't fake or for the wrong reasons?... I guess is what I'm trying to get across here.

Wrong because a love triangle DOES NOT REQUIRE COMMON MUTUAL INTEREST ON ALL POINTS. Yes, it can, but there being a love triangle cannot in and of itself prove that there is.

But when you have a love triangle where the male is said to have wavered between the two females and is saying he hopes the one likes her... I think that counts in this case, doesn't it?

 

[Ryushikaze]

What else could it mean if it doesn't mean that he was interested too?

A considerably lesser form of interest than is being assumed. I say this not to be a dick (fun though it might be) but to make sure that your arguments are well formed.

As for genuinely... I might have used the wrong word. Legitimately?.. He had interest in her for real...? The feelings weren't fake or for the wrong reasons?... I guess is what I'm trying to get across here.[/quote]

I'm just curious then how 'legitimate' means anything substantial in this situation. Even feelings of wanting to be wanted by a woman you don't intend on pursuing are 'legitimate' in that sense.

But when you have a love triangle where the male is said to have wavered between the two females and is saying he hopes the one likes her... I think that counts in this case, doesn't it?

Which is why I said I was taking umbrage with your path, not your conclusion. We know that there is SOME form of interest in Aerith from Cloud, but the intensity and nature remains vague. It could be as simple as 'nice butt' or as complex as 'If I strike out with Tifa, Aerith would be a good shoulder to cry on' or even 'Must resist urge to pull the Archie'

Building a case needs to be done on something a little more substantial than just 'It's a love triangle.'
So get to it.