The Love Triangle Debate thread of KNEEL BEFORE ZOD OR SUFFER HIS WRATH (ignore the opening posts at your peril) (Round 6)

[Danseru-kun]

If anybody knows the guys who wrote the LTD part, please contact! I'm really curious about the ideal woman part. I don't know anything about that, I doubt we'll find a real quote though ....

 

[OneWingedDemon]

Is this what you're talking about? http://tifa.nu/tifa/original/original.php?z=love02
That shit about Nomura can be seen throughout his work. People have been joking about this for ages.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I've e-mailed the author of that article to ask if he can provide us with an actual quote. I'm not expecting this rumor to be verified, though.

 

[Dashell]

I really want to see the quote where he mentions Tifa to be designed as the ideal girl for Cloud. That sounds pretty big as far as the LTD goes but it's the first time I've heard of this.

You know... I think I remember a quote that was like... you know Cloud was her knight in shining armor and Cloud was HER ideal love... but it turned out to be just something from a website that people picked up on

As far as I know a quote saying Tifa was Cloud's ideal doesn't exist

EDIT
OH there's another page...
Silly me... but yeah I don't think that quote exists either and this was the same one that had that KH quote that got butchered to hell and back 10 times over XD

Pretty sure it's just the author's thoughts there.

 

[supergumbo]

Is this what you're talking about? http://tifa.nu/tifa/original/original.php?z=love02
That shit about Nomura can be seen throughout his work. People have been joking about this for ages.

I've no doubt Nomura replicates a certain themautic style to his female characters, but this whole Tifa was Cloud's ideal woman and Aerith wasn't sounds a bit hokey pokey to me.

 

[Dashell]

Personally I think that's BS, Cloud and Aerith compliment each other very well. In a way that Cloud and Tifa can't and don't. Aerith can seem to bring out Cloud's emotions very well and read him while Tifa is more confused by it than anything.

Of course I love Cloud and Tifa but it just seems like Cloud and Aerith has something that C/T don't.

 

[Danseru-kun]

Personally I think that's BS, Cloud and Aerith compliment each other very well. In a way that Cloud and Tifa can't and don't. Aerith can seem to bring out Cloud's emotions very well and read him while Tifa is more confused by it than anything.

Of course I love Cloud and Tifa but it just seems like Cloud and Aerith has something that C/T don't.

IMO its Aerith herself, not really the combination. Aerith plays with Zack's flirtations and they're alike in that aspect, although IMO Aerith is better than it than Zack LOL.

As for Tifa, whoever the man is, she'll be the motherly and demure woman she is, just like how Aerith is the playful one.

Also, I dunno I have male friends who bring out my real personality rather than the person I really admired back in highschool. Compatibility is cool and all but at the end love is love.

 

[supergumbo]

Personally I think that's BS, Cloud and Aerith compliment each other very well. In a way that Cloud and Tifa can't and don't. Aerith can seem to bring out Cloud's emotions very well and read him while Tifa is more confused by it than anything.

Of course I love Cloud and Tifa but it just seems like Cloud and Aerith has something that C/T don't.

To be fair, the article talked more about Aerith's role and physical appearance to not be "ideal" for Cloud. She is only around for a short period of time before she kicks the bucket. And the appearance part is more due to personal preference if anything. I'm not saying it's true Nomura said that, but it doesn't exactly go into anything regarding compatibility.

Also, I felt Aerith read Cloud quite well due to Zack's personality, and Cloud responded accordingly due to his memories. Tifa was confused because this Cloud wasn't the Cloud she knew, he was a mishmash of memories being controlled by Jenova's consciousness.

Cloud and Aerith certainly have something C/T quite don't, but Cloud and Tifa also have a connection C/A doesn't. By the end of the game, Tifa knew more about Cloud than anybody. When they were in the lifestream, when Cloud was at his worst, his heart called out to Tifa, not Aerith. This was even after Aerith's tragic passing. Love is love. It reminds me of that "How I Met Your Mother" episode. Love brings compatibility from a 70% to a 100%, and is something that is not replicated. In the end, both women played a role in Cloud's development in different ways, but they were both deep and important nonetheless.

 

[Danseru-kun]

^

Nice post gumbo, so agree.

This remind me of arguments where Tifa's "incompatibility" is proven by Advent Children and that Aerith is who Cloud needed. But when we look at it, is that when Aerith was alive, she was with a confident Cloud living in a different persona. It was only after that she died where his false identity began to crumble away.

Tifa had to deal with him recalling the Nibelheim burning when he wasn't there, she had to deal with his mental breakdowns in the Northern Cave up to the Lifestream event and his PTSD and Geostigma in Advent Children. Aerith wasn't exactly with Cloud at any of this. She may be watching him, but at the end her burden is the whole planet.

Aerith had to deal with planet issues and Meteor and stuff, Tifa had it as hard with Cloud's mental issues.

 

[Vendel]

Personally I think that's BS, Cloud and Aerith compliment each other very well. In a way that Cloud and Tifa can't and don't. Aerith can seem to bring out Cloud's emotions very well and read him while Tifa is more confused by it than anything.

Of course I love Cloud and Tifa but it just seems like Cloud and Aerith has something that C/T don't.

Oh Aerith can read Cloud very well. Which is why it took her two weeks of being around him constantly to stop seeing her dead boyfriend in him.

Then again she was waiting for him when he sneaked out of her house. So that has to count for something.

 

[Kittie]

Aerith had to deal with planet issues and Meteor and stuff, Tifa had it as hard with Cloud's mental issues.

Exactly this. Granted, that Aerith would've probably been just as good as Tifa for Cloud, her role was much larger than that of a love interest. Even upon her death, she still had yet to meet the real Cloud; and while we'll probably never know what would've happened if she had, like Zack, she's still someone who left quite an impact on his life. I try to always bear in mind that FFVII is more than just a love story. Its elements of family, sacrifice, and friendship are really quite beautiful, even without the romantic subplot.

 

[Dashell]

Cloud and Aerith certainly have something C/T quite don't, but Cloud and Tifa also have a connection C/A doesn't. By the end of the game, Tifa knew more about Cloud than anybody. When they were in the lifestream, when Cloud was at his worst, his heart called out to Tifa, not Aerith. This was even after Aerith's tragic passing. Love is love. It reminds me of that "How I Met Your Mother" episode. Love brings compatibility from a 70% to a 100%, and is something that is not replicated. In the end, both women played a role in Cloud's development in different ways, but they were both deep and important nonetheless.

True but none of this invalidates my statement

 

[Vendel]

True but none of this invalidates my statement

The game itself does a fine job of that.

 

[Dashell]

They seem to get along fine to me... ohthatsrightitwaszacloudmybad

 

[OneWingedDemon]

The article doesn't say that, hypothetically, Aeris and Cloud wouldn't work or that she would be bad for him. Only that Nomura likes a certain type and designed his women and men accordingly.

Also, Nomura again says Cloud and Tifa were made to complement each other in AC (specifically those two characters and they took great pains to do so), looks and otherwise, I see nothing extraordinary about the claim.

EDIT:

but this whole Tifa was Cloud's ideal woman and Aerith wasn't sounds a bit hokey pokey to me.

It's a bit hard to discuss Cloud's preferences and what he considers ideal, when he's been obsessed with only Tifa since before his balls dropped. That's pretty much the only statement I need.

 

[Vendel]

Okay because I have not really seen this addressed.

Personally I think that's BS, Cloud and Aerith compliment each other very well. In a way that Cloud and Tifa can't and don't. Aerith can seem to bring out Cloud's emotions very well and read him while Tifa is more confused by it than anything.

Of course I love Cloud and Tifa but it just seems like Cloud and Aerith has something that C/T don't.

Q what exactly about Cloud and Aerith's interactions give you the impression that they compliment each other in a way that C/T "can't and don't"?

Is it when Cloud was acting like the confident mercenary EX-SOLDIER? Was it when he was running away from her in the middle of the night to get back to Tifa? Was it when he humiliated himself to save Tifa in Wall market? Was it when he slapped the shit out of her in the Temple of the Ancients? Was it when she was bringing up her dead boyfriend every 5 minutes?

And funny you say she can read him while Tifa can't when it was the fact that Tifa knew immediately something was wrong with Cloud when she met him for the first time. It took Aerith the better part of the time they were together to admit that.

Why don't we see what the 10th Anv Ult says?

Tifa's Profile

- Apart from being Cloud’s childhood friend, she is also the woman who understands him all too well and devotedly supports the mentally-weak side of him.

- She was reunited with Cloud during one of AVALANCHE’s activities, and invited him to join the organization in order to watch over him after finding many strange aspects in his speech and behavior.

- Out of goodwill for Cloud, she didn’t voice out her personal thoughts. There, her suspicions about Cloud, whose strange speech and conduct conflicted with facts from the past, also.
(Vendel note- The same speech and conduct which attracted Aerith)


How about Aerith?

- Even though Aerith perceived that Cloud had lost sight of his true self, she still has great affection for him. As an Ancient, Aerith had planned to accomplish the mission. On the one hand, her last concern is Cloud.
(Vendel note - She manged to figure this out after he lost his mind and beat the shit out of her)




I could go on. But you get my point.

 

[Selphie Tilmitt]

That's really not fair. Aerith was trying to find out all about Cloud from the beginning i.e from early on like the time she was asking Marlene all about Cloud, the times she spent talking with Tifa during party splits, etc. I dunno, I just never got the impression that when Aerith said "but you're different, things are different now" that she was practically just discovering it there and then. As a naturally curious and inquisitive persona she was doing her best to find out as much of the truth as she could from the start. There was that time in the mural room in the Temple of the Ancients where she knew something was wrong and didn't seem phased by it/reassured Cloud too.

Ummm, also Elmyra -asks- Cloud to leave without Aerith you know, since she didn't want Aerith to get hurt again. Whatever that scene was about though it wasn't about Cloud just ditching Aerith as soon as possible because he didn't care about her or anything like some might like to think.

Elmyra
"That glow in your eyes... you're from SOLDIER, right?"

Cloud
"Yeah. Rather I used to be..."

Elmyra
".... I don't know how to say this, but..."
"Would you please leave here, tonight?" Without telling Aerith."

Actually wait think there might be something in the Ultimanias as well, about Elmyra's request to Cloud, I see their names mentioned in her profile.

Also let's just have a look at the script again -

"This is the mansion of Don Corneo, the most powerful man in
Wall Market."
"Look, the Don's not into men. So don't let me catch you around
here again..."
"Hey, and you got another cute one with you!"

(Aerith pulls Cloud aside.)

Aerith
"Hey, this looks like the Don's mansion. I'll go take a look."
"I'll tell Tifa about you."

Cloud
"No!! You can't!!"

Aerith
"Why?"

Cloud
"You DO know... what kind of... place this is, don't you?"

Aerith
"Then, what am I supposed to do? You want to go in with me?"

Cloud
"Well being a man, that'll be pretty hard. Besides if I bust in
there, it'll cause too much commotion."

(Aerith is giggling.)

Cloud
"But, I just can't let you go in alone... Oh, man......"
"First, we'll need to find out if Tifa's alright...."
"What's so funny, Aerith?"

Aerith
"Cloud, why don't you dress up like a girl? It's the only way."

Cloud
"WHAT!?"

(Aerith speaks to the doorman.)

Aerith
"Just wait. I've got a cute friend I want to bring."

Cloud
"Aerith! I can't....."

Aerith
"You ARE worried about Tifa, aren't you? Then come on, hurry!"

Cloud was worried about/showed concern for Aerith too. Not wanting to let her go in there alone and all/worried about what might happen to her in that kind of place. Don't forget the whole dress like a girl deal was Aerith's entire idea/she encouraged him into it. It's not like Cloud had the idea himself/came up with the idea to and was very keen to dress up like a girl. Let's give her credit where credit's due. Of course I've also seen others at the opposite extremes saying really it was Aerith that Cloud dressed up like a girl for because it was her plan and she'd been planning to go into the Don's mansion alone before if he didn't go along with it so he did it because it was her plan, to keep her happy and keep her safe because he'd showed concern over her safety there, but really no he didn't just do it for her, for one or the other, he did it for -both- of them. Of course Cloud was worried/concerned about/wanted to get back to Tifa as soon as possible at those times but it wasn't like he was all I couldn't care less about this Aerith chick, let's ditch her as soon as possible! or something either sorry

 

[Vendel]

That's really not fair.

I find it nonsensical when I see this praise lavished upon this supposed great connection Cloud and Aerith had. They had a connection yes. But to build it into something it wasn't? Meh.

Add in Q stating that Aerith compliments Cloud better than Tifa and understands him better? Sorry if you think my response was "unfair". But I was being nice.

 

[Splintered]

Add in Q stating that Aerith compliments Cloud better than Tifa and understands him better? Sorry if you think my response was "unfair". But I was being nice.

Maybe I just skimmed that piece, but she didn't say that? She said she compliments him in a way Tifa and Cloud don't and that's true. She's not saying its "better" she's saying its different. And that makes sense.

Aerith is naturally outgoing and straightforward, and she brings out a more emotive Cloud, who was somewhat of a onenote at the beginning of the game, at least in my opinion. Meanwhile Tifa struggles with communication and bottles issues up, but she also is a strong emotional support base and has the patience of a saint. And that's what Cloud needed for the lifestream and the years when they were rebuilding their life.

It feels like "It's not real Cloud so it doesn't count" is just the goto answer for anytime people bring about the fact that Cloud and Aerith did have really good chemistry, did look like they were mutually interested, and are some of the most important people in each others life. It's important to understand that they are not the only important people in each others lives like some shippers claim, but it's still there. Cloud was confused at the time but it doesn't negate the relationship between the two, and it's not as simple is "well she's an attractive gurl ofc he wants to tap it."

There's a reason why Aerith evokes a really strong emotional reaction to Cloud. And it happens with Zack to, but Zack's relationship wasn't mired with strong romantic tension (Well, unless you are a Clacker I guess). And there's a reason why they pop up connected in various unrelated games, and I'm not going ERMGAGODCANON, but it shows Square understands there is a connection there that means something, both to the characters and maybe the viewers.

Cloud loving Tifa doesn't mean that what he had with Aerith was fleeting (dat word) or was insignificant. Even if you argue that it wasn't romantic despite, you know, the romantic tension- doesn't mean it was quite powerful in terms of the story and characterization.

 

[Vendel]

Maybe I just skimmed that piece, but she didn't say that? She said she compliments him in a way Tifa and Cloud don't and that's true. She's not saying its "better" she's saying its different. And that makes sense.

I'm not sure what "C/A compliment each other very well in a way that C/T can't and don't, Aerith can read him and bring out his emotions while Tifa is confused and C/A have something C/T don't" that confuses you?

The meaning seems very clear to me.

And there's a reason why they pop up connected in various unrelated games, and I'm not going ERMGAGODCANON, but it shows Square understands there is a connection there that means something, both to the characters and maybe the viewers.

And maybe the viewers?

*sigh* alright someone bring me the disk art for that board game. Time to start seeing who is connected to whom again.

 

[Dashell]

It feels like "It's not real Cloud so it doesn't count" is just the goto answer for anytime people bring about the fact that Cloud and Aerith did have really good chemistry, did look like they were mutually interested, and are some of the most important people in each others life. It's important to understand that they are not the only important people in each others lives like some shippers claim, but it's still there. Cloud was confused at the time but it doesn't negate the relationship between the two, and it's not as simple is "well she's an attractive gurl ofc he wants to tap it."

You are my hero!

I'm not sure what "C/A compliment each other very well in a way that C/T can't and don't, Aerith can read him and bring out his emotions while Tifa is confused and C/A have something C/T don't" that confuses you?

It's exactly as Splintered said, they compliment each other in a way that C/T do not. I'm not saying it's better or worse, it's just different.

 

[Ryushikaze]

If we're on about special bonds between Aerith and other people, let's not forget that Aerith had just as big a bond with Tifa.

And that it too could probably, but poorly, be said that Aerith and Tifa 'compliment each other in a way C/T can't and don't.'

I will, however, say that 'can bring out his emotions while Tifa is confused' is utter pillock. Tifa's already brought out emotions in headscrewed Cloud before Aerith properly enters the picture. Aerith is just very good at getting people to open up. She does it to a lot of people, Tifa included. It's ironic, given Aerith's quite close mouthed about a lot of her issues herself, but I digress.

And yes, there's a connection between Cloud and Aerith. There's also one between Aerith and Tifa and Cloud and Zack. All of these are different connections. They all have things the others don't. For one such example, contrary to the protestations of the Clackers, Cloud wants to date Tifa, but not Zack. He, however, does not try to live up to the example set by Tifa, regardless of how much he respects her. He does for Zack.

 

[Dashell]

I'm not dismissing ANY of those connections or trying to downplay them.

I will, however, say that 'can bring out his emotions while Tifa is confused' is utter pillock.

I'm talking about in AC/C when it seemed like to me, she didn't really know how to deal with how Cloud was acting and was hiding her own emotions for the kids' sakes. I'm talking about the few complexities that make her uneasy... I think Aerith has a different way of dealing with those.

Tifa's already brought out emotions in headscrewed Cloud before Aerith properly enters the picture. Aerith is just very good at getting people to open up. She does it to a lot of people, Tifa included. It's ironic, given Aerith's quite close mouthed about a lot of her issues herself, but I digress.

Which is why I feel Aerith and Cloud compliment each other... cause Aerith is good at that stuff

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Vendel is definitely right that Tifa understands Cloud best. Aerith may have been able to bring out something in him that Tifa didn't while she was alive and he was messed up, but Tifa also incites more emotional, expressive and jovial behavior from him in Case of Tifa.

And, again, in terms of who knows him better, that's Tifa. We've been given direct statements to that effect.

That said, I agree with all of Mow's points in her last post. Cloud never demonstrates a lack of concern for Aerith, nor a desire for her to just go away. The only occasions where he tries excluding her involve concern for her (the Don's place) or honoring her mother's request (slipping out in the middle of the night).
----





On another topic of disagreement, I think the reason the Sanctuary of Amusement card has made such an impression on me is that it further cemented a period of several years where the Aerith date was unquestionably canon.

For almost nine years after the game was released, there was nothing more to go off of than the monologues from the Kaitai Shinsho The Complete (those diary-like entries Benny Matsuyama wrote), the Memorial Album script and the Art Museum card collection. Two of those explicitly identify Aerith's date as the one that happened, and the third presents it alongside Tifa and Yuffie's.

I'm not so much seeing the card as a magic bullet that super cedes later material, but as something that, perhaps, gives that later material vital context. Knowing of this prior canon status on the basis of something other than Benny's work -- the canonicity of which later came into question -- paints a much different picture of things in my mind.

The Ultimania Omega (published September 9, 2005) suddenly looks less ambiguous due to its use of only Aerith's date in the screenshots from the extensive Story Playback section. Rather than these images simply serving as possible placeholders because "they had to put something there," they now appear to be upholding the established canon.

Thus, it becomes a situation where ambiguity wasn't really entered into the mix until the FF 20th Anniversary Ultimanias, the first of which wasn't published until January 31, 2008 -- 11 years to the day after FFVII was released! And even then, Aerith's date is the "placeholder" for the date's entry on the "For the One I Love" page in File 2: Scenario, and seems to be the main date presented in the Story Playback of VII from the same book; the other dates are actually under the "Deviation" heading.

This makes the 25th Memorial Ultimania Vol. 2's equal presentation of the dates appear much less ambiguous.

I'm still calling it: Aerith's date is canon. Maybe one can reason that at least all the gondola rides took place (I don't see it myself), but Aerith's date definitely happened.

 

[Fairheartstrife]

I'm not dismissing ANY of those connections or trying to downplay them.



I'm talking about in AC/C when it seemed like to me, she didn't really know how to deal with how Cloud was acting and was hiding her own emotions for the kids' sakes. I'm talking about the few complexities that make her uneasy... I think Aerith has a different way of dealing with those.

I think Tifa was dealing with Cloud just fine in in AC/C. She's not his mother, nor did she act like it, but when he needed a push, she gave it. Cloud needs to work through his emotional bullshit on his own, not have someone hand hold him through it all. And given how Aerith reacted to Barret's situation in game I really don't think she would know how to deal with an emotional breakdown from anyone else, tbh, given her own issues. Not saying she didn't compliment Cloud, because I think she did. I think there was a genuine connection between the two. I also think that long term they wouldn't work, and that connection or none, his heart has always been Tifa's.

also, ps. I'm not dead.