Sikozu
Pro Adventurer
- AKA
- Sylphide
What are we to make about the fact that Zack is cherished second only to Aerith in AC, but in ACC he ranks last in Cloud's "I Cherish..." list?
The Love Triangle Debate thread of KNEEL BEFORE ZOD OR SUFFER HIS WRATH (ignore the opening posts at your peril) (Round 6)
- Thread starter Max Payne
- Start date
- Status
What are we to make about the fact that Zack is cherished second only to Aerith in AC, but in ACC he ranks last in Cloud's "I Cherish..." list?
Kittie
General Eccentric
- AKA
- The Iron Witch
That's an excellent point, Sikozu. I've thought about the changes made to that scene from AC to ACC myself, and I truly believe that moving Zack to the end was done so in order to bridge his conversation with Cloud. I don't think the changes necessarily show anything about Cloud's cherishing one person above another. I actually like the revision, in a way.
But, yes, I would like to know other people's thoughts about this.
robotwarui
kraplach
- AKA
- badrobot
It's not order, it's number of frames...
"Tell me what you cherish most... Give me the pleasure of taking it away..."
4 frames - Aerith
4 frames - Aerith flying in (a cut-in real time to show she is on her way to help?)
4 frames - Tifa
4 frames - Marlene
4 frames - Denzel
12 frames - Zack
Cloud loves Zack times 12 - and he saved the best for last
"Tell me what you cherish most... Give me the pleasure of taking it away..."
4 frames - Aerith
4 frames - Aerith flying in (a cut-in real time to show she is on her way to help?)
4 frames - Tifa
4 frames - Marlene
4 frames - Denzel
12 frames - Zack
Cloud loves Zack times 12 - and he saved the best for last
jazzflower92
Pro Adventurer
- AKA
- The Girl With A Strong Opinion
Dashell
SMILE!
- AKA
- Sonique, Quexinos, Pinkie Pie, Derpy Hooves
Oh we're back in "Cloud loves Marlene more than Denzel" territory again I see...
also what's this about Cloud and Tifa not sharing anything with the other romantic couples?
c/p from Danseru's tumblr (too lazy to copy over images though)
------
The disputed Highwind scene has been embedded in Cloud and Tifa’s profiles where it’s said they communicated their feelings and find them to match, (this is also implied to have sexual undertones) and the For The One I Love Page confirmed to be romantic. Many argues that this can also be merely friendship because it is affected by player choice “optional” and depending on how you play the game the romantic outcome may not be what you get. Many don’t think that despite the FTOIL page but then it turns out a lot canonical FF couples also share this “friendship moment.”
Here are the FFVII quotes without mentioning the player option at all, just saying plainly what happened to Cloud and Tifa before the final battle, there are no “ifs,” just statements:
(FFVII Ultimania Omega, pg. 15; Cloud’s profile)
最終決戦を前に一時解散を宣言し、飛空艇に残ったティファと想いを通わせる。
“Declares that the team should dissolve in the final hours before the final battle, and communicates his feelings together with Tifa, who remains behind at the airship with him.”
(FFVII Ultimania Omega, pg. 27; Tifa’s profile)
クラウドの提案で一時解散することになるが、飛空艇に残り、クラウドと想いを通わせる。
“When Cloud proposes that the group separates temporarily, she remains behind at the airship and communicates her feelings together with Cloud. “
(Crisis Core Ultimania, pg. 33; Tifa’s profile)
クラウドとは物語の終盤に想いを通わせ、「AC」「DC」の時代は一緒に暮らしている。
“She communicates her feelings together with Cloud in the final stages of the story, and in AC and DC they live together.”
Take note of those bolded kanji. The grammatical explanation will be at the bottom of this post. But let’s just say the reason why the end characters are る and せ is because of politeness and tenses but the meaning are the same.
Locke and Celes
image
(not the actual source text but the picture in the “For the One I Love” page)
Note this is also a optional scene, but for some reason no one seem to nitpick it.
「VI」すれちがいの果てに
帝国の将軍と反帝国組織の一員　—　お互いの立場ゆえにすれちがっていたセリスとロックは、長い期間を経てようやく想いを通わせた。
The imperial general and the anti-empire organization member — Celes and Locke’s relation to one another is like ships passing in the night; it’s a long period before they get to communicate their feelings completely.
FF 20th AU “For the One I Love”
Squall and Rinoa
image
ティンバー独立を目指すレジスタンス「森のフクロウ」に身を置く、 人なつっこくて快活な少女。 SeeDとして派遣されたスコールたちと行動をともにし、 自身の当初の目的ではない魔女討伐作戦にも協力。 戦いのさなかイデアから魔女の力を継承してしまい、 自分が世界中の人々の敵となることに恐れを抱くが、 想いを通わせたスコールに守られつつ アルティミシアに立ち向かう。
“A friendly and cheerful young woman, part of the resistance group called the Forest Owls, whose goal is the liberation of Timber. She joins in Squall and co.’s activities when they are dispatched by SeeD, and also participates in the witch assassination plot, which she wasn’t supposed to be involved with. During a battle, she inherits the powers of a witch from Edea; she begins to fear that she will become an enemy of the whole world, but Squall communicates his feelings to her and battles Ultimecia to protect her.”
FF 25th AU Vol. 2
Steiner and Beatrix
image
恋のはじまりはカンちがいから
ベアトリクスにとってスタイナーはただ一度敗北を喫した相手であり、双方ともに対抗意識を燃やしていた。だが、エーコのラブレターを互いが互いに宛てたものだとカンちがい して以来、ふたりは意識し合うようになり、エンディングで想いを通わせる。
A Love That Started With A Misunderstanding
To Beatrix, Steiner is the one opponent who has defeated her, and they both harbour a rivalry towards each other. But after mistaking Eiko’s love letter for one sent to them from each other, they start to take notice of one another and in the ending make their feelings known.
FF 25th AU Vol. 2
-
Then there is another variation of the quote found in other pairs as well.
Zell and Pigtailed Girl
image
Note this scene is also optional, the whole quest with her actually, but now the Ultimania tells it happened.
三つ編みの図書委員とのロマンス
教師陣からは問題児あつかいされているものの、生徒やバラムの人々からの人気はそこそこ。なかでも三つ編みの図書委員には好意を持たれており、やがて彼女から想いを打ち明 けられる。
Romance with the Library Committee Member With Braids
Despite being seen as a trouble maker by the faculty, he is fairly popular with the students and people of Balamb. In particular the member of the library committee with the braided hair likes him, and eventually she reveals her feelings to him.
FF 25th AU Vol. 2
Even if it was Pigtailed girl revealing her feelings to him, this is the same quote used for Cloud and Tifa towards each other. Then here:
Tidus and Yuna
image
FFX UO pg. 60
——
At the mysterious spring that glitters like the stars, the two kiss and embrace many times, confirming their feelings for one another.
Japanese text:
星をのようにきらめく神秘の泉のなで、ふたりは、(互いの想い
を確かめ合うかのように幾度も抱擁し、唇を重ねた。
Take note of the part with parenthesis part in Tidus and Yuna and spot them in the following quotes I would give. And note they were kissing and embracing here (duh Macalania Spring) and oddly, this is the same quote used for Cloud and Tifa’s “friendship moment.” Is SE trolling us? XD
(FFVII 10th Anniversary Ultimania, pg. 118; pg. 120 in the Revised Edition; story summary)
残ったクラウドとティファは、(互いへの想いを打ち明け、確かめ合う。
“Cloud and Tifa, who remain, reveal their feelings for each other together.”
(FF 20th Anniversary Ultimania File 2: Scenario, pg. 232; main body of FFVII’s story summary)
そして、ふたり、きりになったクラウドとティファは、残された最後の時間で(互いの想いを打ち明け合う。
“And when Cloud and Tifa remain behind alone, in their final hours, together they disclose their feelings for each other.”
(FFVII Ultimania Omega, pg. 198; story summary)
大切な人の待つ場所へと仲間が散っていき、ふたりきりになたクラドとティファ。残された最後の時間でお(互いの想いを打ち明け、そして……。
“When their companions disperse to the places where people important to them await, Cloud and Tifa are the only two to remain behind. They reveal their mutual feelings in their final hours, and…….”
And did you guys notice that..
These are like almost everyone listed in the For the One I Love Page page? (And I’m talking about the named people not the pictures. And sorry Zell, you’re not there.)
And also, all of the canon couples in FF share just like one quote for their feelings communicated but then Cloud and Tifa has like seven quotes for it not mentioning optionality at all and various other references like Tifa’s “Words aren’t the only way…” quote in her trading card and Dissidia (and possibly, and hopefully, theatrhythm.)
There you go folks, SE uses the same words for all of these wonderful pairs. They should be telling us something
Bottomline: Cloud and Tifa had a revelation of feelings for each other the same way Squall/Rinoa, Celes/Locke, Steinex/Beatrix, Pigtailed girl to Zell and Tidus/Yuna have one in their romantic moments.
Translation notes:
思いを通わせ
used as a conjunction (used more in written and formal language in my experience). you take the stem of the verb you would use to conjugate the ‘polite/masu form’ of the verb (通わせる becomes 通わせます and drop the ending.
examples from other quotes in this thread:
SeeDとして派遣されたスコールたちと行動をともにし、 自身の当初の目的ではない魔女討伐作戦にも協力。 戦いのさなかイデアから魔女の力を継承してしまい、 自分が世界中の人々の敵となることに恐れを抱くが、 想いを通わせたスコールに守られつつ アルティミシアに立ち向かう。
し　＝　する　＝　し・ます
しまい　＝　しまう　＝　しまい・ます
星のようにきらめく神秘の泉のなで、ふたりは、互いの想いを確かめ合うかのように幾度も抱擁し、唇を重ねた。
し　＝　する　＝　し・ます
残ったクラウドとティファは、互いへの想いを打ち明け、確かめ合う。
打ち明け　＝　打ち明ける　＝　打ち明け・ます
思いを通わせた
i don’t really have a big explanation for this, it’s just the past tense. here it’s modifying スコール, while talking about how rinoa is protected by him. he has already communicated his feelings at this point.
想いを通わせたスコールに守られつつ アルティミシアに立ち向かう
想いを通わせる
if you look at most of these quotes, they use this tense. i can’t give an official reason why, it just happens. perhaps because it gives a more immediate nuance, like you’re talking from point of view of the time the event is happening. you’re in the present, so it feels like you’re talking stuff as if it’s going on now.
by Hitoshura/Claudia Wolf
Thanks to Tres/SoS, Quexinos and Hitoshura for the translations! If you have issues with the translation debate with this fella in the Lifestream forums. This post will not discuss itself except for minor clarifications. The Squinoa quote is by Tresdias/Hawkeye in that thread. The rest, I’m not sure who did them exactly but they will be able to explain it in the forums!
Again, if you have issues with the translations, debate in the forums!
Further proof that the phrases are romantic: http://danseru-kun.tumblr.com/post/...cult-was-it-for-cloud-to-confirm-his-feelings
also what's this about Cloud and Tifa not sharing anything with the other romantic couples?
c/p from Danseru's tumblr (too lazy to copy over images though)
------
The disputed Highwind scene has been embedded in Cloud and Tifa’s profiles where it’s said they communicated their feelings and find them to match, (this is also implied to have sexual undertones) and the For The One I Love Page confirmed to be romantic. Many argues that this can also be merely friendship because it is affected by player choice “optional” and depending on how you play the game the romantic outcome may not be what you get. Many don’t think that despite the FTOIL page but then it turns out a lot canonical FF couples also share this “friendship moment.”
Here are the FFVII quotes without mentioning the player option at all, just saying plainly what happened to Cloud and Tifa before the final battle, there are no “ifs,” just statements:
(FFVII Ultimania Omega, pg. 15; Cloud’s profile)
最終決戦を前に一時解散を宣言し、飛空艇に残ったティファと想いを通わせる。
“Declares that the team should dissolve in the final hours before the final battle, and communicates his feelings together with Tifa, who remains behind at the airship with him.”
(FFVII Ultimania Omega, pg. 27; Tifa’s profile)
クラウドの提案で一時解散することになるが、飛空艇に残り、クラウドと想いを通わせる。
“When Cloud proposes that the group separates temporarily, she remains behind at the airship and communicates her feelings together with Cloud. “
(Crisis Core Ultimania, pg. 33; Tifa’s profile)
クラウドとは物語の終盤に想いを通わせ、「AC」「DC」の時代は一緒に暮らしている。
“She communicates her feelings together with Cloud in the final stages of the story, and in AC and DC they live together.”
Take note of those bolded kanji. The grammatical explanation will be at the bottom of this post. But let’s just say the reason why the end characters are る and せ is because of politeness and tenses but the meaning are the same.
Locke and Celes
image
(not the actual source text but the picture in the “For the One I Love” page)
Note this is also a optional scene, but for some reason no one seem to nitpick it.
「VI」すれちがいの果てに
帝国の将軍と反帝国組織の一員　—　お互いの立場ゆえにすれちがっていたセリスとロックは、長い期間を経てようやく想いを通わせた。
The imperial general and the anti-empire organization member — Celes and Locke’s relation to one another is like ships passing in the night; it’s a long period before they get to communicate their feelings completely.
FF 20th AU “For the One I Love”
Squall and Rinoa
image
ティンバー独立を目指すレジスタンス「森のフクロウ」に身を置く、 人なつっこくて快活な少女。 SeeDとして派遣されたスコールたちと行動をともにし、 自身の当初の目的ではない魔女討伐作戦にも協力。 戦いのさなかイデアから魔女の力を継承してしまい、 自分が世界中の人々の敵となることに恐れを抱くが、 想いを通わせたスコールに守られつつ アルティミシアに立ち向かう。
“A friendly and cheerful young woman, part of the resistance group called the Forest Owls, whose goal is the liberation of Timber. She joins in Squall and co.’s activities when they are dispatched by SeeD, and also participates in the witch assassination plot, which she wasn’t supposed to be involved with. During a battle, she inherits the powers of a witch from Edea; she begins to fear that she will become an enemy of the whole world, but Squall communicates his feelings to her and battles Ultimecia to protect her.”
FF 25th AU Vol. 2
Steiner and Beatrix
image
恋のはじまりはカンちがいから
ベアトリクスにとってスタイナーはただ一度敗北を喫した相手であり、双方ともに対抗意識を燃やしていた。だが、エーコのラブレターを互いが互いに宛てたものだとカンちがい して以来、ふたりは意識し合うようになり、エンディングで想いを通わせる。
A Love That Started With A Misunderstanding
To Beatrix, Steiner is the one opponent who has defeated her, and they both harbour a rivalry towards each other. But after mistaking Eiko’s love letter for one sent to them from each other, they start to take notice of one another and in the ending make their feelings known.
FF 25th AU Vol. 2
-
Then there is another variation of the quote found in other pairs as well.
Zell and Pigtailed Girl
image
Note this scene is also optional, the whole quest with her actually, but now the Ultimania tells it happened.
三つ編みの図書委員とのロマンス
教師陣からは問題児あつかいされているものの、生徒やバラムの人々からの人気はそこそこ。なかでも三つ編みの図書委員には好意を持たれており、やがて彼女から想いを打ち明 けられる。
Romance with the Library Committee Member With Braids
Despite being seen as a trouble maker by the faculty, he is fairly popular with the students and people of Balamb. In particular the member of the library committee with the braided hair likes him, and eventually she reveals her feelings to him.
FF 25th AU Vol. 2
Even if it was Pigtailed girl revealing her feelings to him, this is the same quote used for Cloud and Tifa towards each other. Then here:
Tidus and Yuna
image
FFX UO pg. 60
——
At the mysterious spring that glitters like the stars, the two kiss and embrace many times, confirming their feelings for one another.
Japanese text:
星をのようにきらめく神秘の泉のなで、ふたりは、(互いの想い
を確かめ合うかのように幾度も抱擁し、唇を重ねた。Take note of the part with parenthesis part in Tidus and Yuna and spot them in the following quotes I would give. And note they were kissing and embracing here (duh Macalania Spring) and oddly, this is the same quote used for Cloud and Tifa’s “friendship moment.” Is SE trolling us? XD
(FFVII 10th Anniversary Ultimania, pg. 118; pg. 120 in the Revised Edition; story summary)
残ったクラウドとティファは、(互いへの想い
を打ち明け、確かめ合う。“Cloud and Tifa, who remain, reveal their feelings for each other together.”
(FF 20th Anniversary Ultimania File 2: Scenario, pg. 232; main body of FFVII’s story summary)
そして、ふたり、きりになったクラウドとティファは、残された最後の時間で(互いの想い
を打ち明け合う。“And when Cloud and Tifa remain behind alone, in their final hours, together they disclose their feelings for each other.”
(FFVII Ultimania Omega, pg. 198; story summary)
大切な人の待つ場所へと仲間が散っていき、ふたりきりになたクラドとティファ。残された最後の時間でお(互いの想い
を打ち明け、そして……。“When their companions disperse to the places where people important to them await, Cloud and Tifa are the only two to remain behind. They reveal their mutual feelings in their final hours, and…….”
And did you guys notice that..
These are like almost everyone listed in the For the One I Love Page page? (And I’m talking about the named people not the pictures. And sorry Zell, you’re not there.)
And also, all of the canon couples in FF share just like one quote for their feelings communicated but then Cloud and Tifa has like seven quotes for it not mentioning optionality at all and various other references like Tifa’s “Words aren’t the only way…” quote in her trading card and Dissidia (and possibly, and hopefully, theatrhythm.)
There you go folks, SE uses the same words for all of these wonderful pairs. They should be telling us something
Bottomline: Cloud and Tifa had a revelation of feelings for each other the same way Squall/Rinoa, Celes/Locke, Steinex/Beatrix, Pigtailed girl to Zell and Tidus/Yuna have one in their romantic moments.
Translation notes:
思いを通わせ
used as a conjunction (used more in written and formal language in my experience). you take the stem of the verb you would use to conjugate the ‘polite/masu form’ of the verb (通わせる becomes 通わせます
and drop the ending.examples from other quotes in this thread:
SeeDとして派遣されたスコールたちと行動をともにし、 自身の当初の目的ではない魔女討伐作戦にも協力。 戦いのさなかイデアから魔女の力を継承してしまい、 自分が世界中の人々の敵となることに恐れを抱くが、 想いを通わせたスコールに守られつつ アルティミシアに立ち向かう。
し　＝　する　＝　し・ます
しまい　＝　しまう　＝　しまい・ます
星のようにきらめく神秘の泉のなで、ふたりは、互いの想いを確かめ合うかのように幾度も抱擁し、唇を重ねた。
し　＝　する　＝　し・ます
残ったクラウドとティファは、互いへの想いを打ち明け、確かめ合う。
打ち明け　＝　打ち明ける　＝　打ち明け・ます
思いを通わせた
i don’t really have a big explanation for this, it’s just the past tense. here it’s modifying スコール, while talking about how rinoa is protected by him. he has already communicated his feelings at this point.
想いを通わせたスコールに守られつつ アルティミシアに立ち向かう
想いを通わせる
if you look at most of these quotes, they use this tense. i can’t give an official reason why, it just happens. perhaps because it gives a more immediate nuance, like you’re talking from point of view of the time the event is happening. you’re in the present, so it feels like you’re talking stuff as if it’s going on now.
by Hitoshura/Claudia Wolf
Thanks to Tres/SoS, Quexinos and Hitoshura for the translations! If you have issues with the translation debate with this fella in the Lifestream forums. This post will not discuss itself except for minor clarifications. The Squinoa quote is by Tresdias/Hawkeye in that thread. The rest, I’m not sure who did them exactly but they will be able to explain it in the forums!
Again, if you have issues with the translations, debate in the forums!
Further proof that the phrases are romantic: http://danseru-kun.tumblr.com/post/...cult-was-it-for-cloud-to-confirm-his-feelings
I actually prefer Hawkeye's interpretation that the "room" actually refers to the living space, hence the absence of possessive. This is less because I absolutely want to see Cloud and Tifa sharing the same bed engraved in canon, and more because I wish to preserve at least some dignity for my favorite characters in the overall crap-fest that is the Compilation.
Well, to be fair, have you heard of a French seaman sinking anything else than his own ship?They don’t get their idyllically happy ending, and therefore attack the character “responsible” for sinking their ship. (Even though said character was an accomplished sailor of the French navy.)
I don't know much about the Phantom of the Opera, but to me it seems like the romantic elements are much more in the forefront than in FF7. I find it more understandable that the fans would constantly argue whether the heroine lives happily ever after with her boyfriend, or spend the rest of her life cheating him emotionally with the creepy guy who killed himself over her. That doesn't make the canon-warping or the pandering adaptations any more excusable, though.
Do any of you guys seriously believe that the order in which Cloud thinks of the people he cherishes actually matter in any way? Or even the number of frames? Because that's just silly. Aerith has to be first, because Sephy is taunting Cloud about her death, but other than that...
Now that I posted what I have in my heart about this whole mess (see? I'm holding FF7 in my heart. I must be in deep romantic love with it
), and since I don't really care about what happens the Compilation or what the big names have to say about it, I don't think I have anything left to say that is actually relevant to this thread. Kudos to those who do care, though, I don't know how you guys find the patience to debate the same issues for 300+ pages.If I have one last thing to say... well, I'm not a shipper, or at least not in the conventional meaning of the term. I'm way more interested in the depth relationships can add to the characters involved and to the narrative at large, rather than their eventual accomplishment after the end of the story proper. Story dynamics first, warm and fuzzy feelings second, gossipy "did they, will they, won't they" dead last. That may be the reason why I don't really mind when canon contradicts me, as long as it doesn't do so in a way that insults my intelligence. Actually, some of my "favorite" "pairings" contradict not just canon, but each other.
To take a very relevant example: I actually like any combination of Cloud, Tifa, Aerith and (to a slightly lesser extent) Zack. I think they each have, or would have very interesting dynamics in a close relationship, whether platonic or romantic. Sure, I hold a special interest in Tifa x Cloud, but I wouldn't be so intent on hooking them together in canon, after the end of either the OG or the Compilation if they weren't the only ones still available at that point. For the other pairings, we can always revisit scenes where both characters were alive and susceptible to interact, and then there are "What ifs", crossovers and other alternate universes
I can't be the only one who thinks this way. Why does it all matter so much? Why do people feel so threatened when their favorite ship is invalidated by later canon elements (even later events in the same game!) or Word of God? Anyone can appropriate a story as their own, but we still need to speak the same language in order to explain the story to others and to speak about it between us. Heh, if it was simple as that, this thread wouldn't have 5000 replies to it, would it...
Junko Enoshima
Banned
Alright this is going to be a very long post by me! I'm going to post my views on those supposed CT quotes and maybe add in some other stuff so here it goes.
About Cloud and Tifa fighting:
I don't think it's that most Clerith shippers think that because Cloud and Tifa fight, they are dysfunctional and can't work out, but it's the WAY that they fight that leads people to believe that. Obviously we all accept that no relationship is perfect, and a relationship without dynamics is boring as hell. It's the way that Cloud and Tifa handle their issues that causes at least me to believe they don't work well as a romantic pair. First hand Cloud and Tifa's issues start long in their past and carry onto their present. It takes all the way until the lifestream scene and the highwind scene to work those problems from their past out. However there are still issues they need to work on. Tifa is still getting jealous over Aerith - and she's passed away by now. To me that says something abou their relationship. If Tifa is still insecure and jealous about her relationship to Cloud and is saying things like: "Which is it, a memory or us" and "Do you love me?" I feel they haven't stepped up to a romantic level. It appears one sided, Tifa loves Cloud but he isn't returning it and he isn't letting go of Aerith. They not only fight because Cloud is chasing Aerith still after her death, but because he is hiding his feelings and running from her and the family. This causes Tifa to lash out at him (and with good reason a that). She doesn't have the gentle and guiding hand that Aerith has her way of dealing with situations is much different than how Aerith would have handled things. So the reasons why I think Cloud and Tifa are dysfunctional in a romantic relationship?
1. They have not worked out all of their issues as *friends* nor have they returned mutual feelings of love.
2. Cloud runs away from his problems
3. Tifa is still jealous and unsure of Cloud's feelings
4. Tifa is brash with her words, Aerith is gentle but blunt
5. Cloud is still chasing after Aerith and feeling as strongly for her even after she dies
6. It is said Aerith lives on in Cloud's mind and heart and won't ever leave.
7. Tifa is always referenced as a child hood friend and nothing more.
To Murdim::
Your opinion is fine and good but it is said that Cloud and Aerith start developing 'their world' together and Tifa is jealous they have a relationship that's DIFFERENT than she and Cloud's. Cloud also proves to care for and want to protect/make promises to Aerith. If the real Cloud never knew Aerith, why the hell would he have bonded with her, what would Tifa have to be jealous of, and why would he even be so upset that he lost her? Obviously the real Cloud knew and loved her otherwise he wouldn't be so heavily effected, he wouldn't have created a bond that stays in his mind and heart forever. Not to mention that Aerith saw through to the real Cloud and was able to say the words that would effect him greatly when she appears to him in his dreams. Cloud also mentions he feels Aerith's presence in his soul during the game so I think there's more to it then just a budding relationship that never got a chance to develop. I think it's more comparable to Zack and Aerith. It was described as a sudden crush where Aerith grew to sincerely love him and then it was ripped away from her in a tragedy. This is the same thing except this time it is Aerith that is torn away. It is a tragic romance. The only difference is that Aerith can actually appear to Cloud now and speak with him. If Zack was able to do that with Aerith maybe then she would have been able to keep on loving him romantically. Aerith also makes CLEAR statements she has moved on from Zack including her letter. Never was there a statement that Cloud had moved on from Aerith or that any of his feelings for her faded in any way.
@Danseru::
Cloud's untreated illness: Geostigma
lol
He runs from this problem and hides it from Tifa. It only causes more problems. He seeks out Aerith to find comfort, not Tifa. I think many people take this as an extremely big clue.
@I am not me:
Advent Children Complete does not ERASE the events of Advent Children. It only adds things.
I thought this was explained. Aerith is jealous Tifa gets to live on earth with Cloud. Tifa is actually jealous of Cloud and Aerith's RELATIONSHIP and Cloud's FEELINGS TOWARDS AERITH. huge difference.
Now here's the longest part, the response to Danseru-kun's CT quotes:
This was in the past. In the past it has only been referred to as a crush unlike the ZA relationship which actually said Zack and Aerith were in a relationship and they were sincerely in love. In fact Aerith is called Zack's girlfriend. None of this exists for Cloud and Tifa and if they confirmed their 'mutual' feelings of 'love' why is Tifa stilled referred to as his childhood friend? I think Cloud revealing how he really felt in the past, does not change the future. Finding the truth about the past does not erase the present.
The difference being he wants to stay true to this promise because it's important to him. Promises are important and shouldn't be broken but the fact is he often breaks the promise to protect Tifa and feels terrible about it each time. What's different is that it does not state that Tifa herself is forever in his heart, but simply his vow to her. Aerith is said to be engraved into Cloud's heart - not her words, not his promise to her, but Aerith HERSELF and everything she is.
They became aware of the truth of their child hood and where they stand in the present. It never says anything about love. They were completely honest with one another in what they believed was their final moments and they spent those moments together. I can see how people can take it romantically but for myself I do not see it as Aerith is still a big part of Cloud's being. Cloud revealed in the past he honestly crushed on Tifa. Tifa revealed she had a fondness for him too. They revealed that in the present they would be there for one another. Love is never mentioned even once.
I'd like to note that Cloud and Aerith can also be compared to many couples in the exact same way. That is why this debate even exists.
If in case of Tifa "kind of different" means love to some of you, then why is he saying that? I thought they already confirmed their feelings during the Highwind scene so why would he be saying that? I always felt they've grown stronger as friends in their relationship. I don't deny that Cloud and Tifa have a family but when she is referred to as a Mother and Cloud as a 'big kid' I am not feeling the love connection. Also Cid can make jokes about Tifa and Cloud, Marlene can say Aerith and Cloud are in love, but outside views do not change the truth of anything
Cloud opened his heart completely to Tifa yes because he revealed his secret feelings, his past, everything. Because they were child hood friends he was able to reveal this all to her Tifa is in fact the key to him discovering it all. I don't think that is neccessarily romantic. :I
It never says who Tifa is a sweetheart TO btw. I feel this is generally speaking, Tifa is like all of these things.
Interesting about the Kingdom Hearts thing where it says Tifa is not a tangible human being. If she exists as light, how can she be with Cloud? She will just dissipate just like Sephiroth when Cloud finally defeats him and then Cloud will return to Aerith.
About Cloud and Tifa fighting:
I don't think it's that most Clerith shippers think that because Cloud and Tifa fight, they are dysfunctional and can't work out, but it's the WAY that they fight that leads people to believe that. Obviously we all accept that no relationship is perfect, and a relationship without dynamics is boring as hell. It's the way that Cloud and Tifa handle their issues that causes at least me to believe they don't work well as a romantic pair. First hand Cloud and Tifa's issues start long in their past and carry onto their present. It takes all the way until the lifestream scene and the highwind scene to work those problems from their past out. However there are still issues they need to work on. Tifa is still getting jealous over Aerith - and she's passed away by now. To me that says something abou their relationship. If Tifa is still insecure and jealous about her relationship to Cloud and is saying things like: "Which is it, a memory or us" and "Do you love me?" I feel they haven't stepped up to a romantic level. It appears one sided, Tifa loves Cloud but he isn't returning it and he isn't letting go of Aerith. They not only fight because Cloud is chasing Aerith still after her death, but because he is hiding his feelings and running from her and the family. This causes Tifa to lash out at him (and with good reason a that). She doesn't have the gentle and guiding hand that Aerith has her way of dealing with situations is much different than how Aerith would have handled things. So the reasons why I think Cloud and Tifa are dysfunctional in a romantic relationship?
1. They have not worked out all of their issues as *friends* nor have they returned mutual feelings of love.
2. Cloud runs away from his problems
3. Tifa is still jealous and unsure of Cloud's feelings
4. Tifa is brash with her words, Aerith is gentle but blunt
5. Cloud is still chasing after Aerith and feeling as strongly for her even after she dies
6. It is said Aerith lives on in Cloud's mind and heart and won't ever leave.
7. Tifa is always referenced as a child hood friend and nothing more.
To Murdim::
Your opinion is fine and good but it is said that Cloud and Aerith start developing 'their world' together and Tifa is jealous they have a relationship that's DIFFERENT than she and Cloud's. Cloud also proves to care for and want to protect/make promises to Aerith. If the real Cloud never knew Aerith, why the hell would he have bonded with her, what would Tifa have to be jealous of, and why would he even be so upset that he lost her? Obviously the real Cloud knew and loved her otherwise he wouldn't be so heavily effected, he wouldn't have created a bond that stays in his mind and heart forever. Not to mention that Aerith saw through to the real Cloud and was able to say the words that would effect him greatly when she appears to him in his dreams. Cloud also mentions he feels Aerith's presence in his soul during the game so I think there's more to it then just a budding relationship that never got a chance to develop. I think it's more comparable to Zack and Aerith. It was described as a sudden crush where Aerith grew to sincerely love him and then it was ripped away from her in a tragedy. This is the same thing except this time it is Aerith that is torn away. It is a tragic romance. The only difference is that Aerith can actually appear to Cloud now and speak with him. If Zack was able to do that with Aerith maybe then she would have been able to keep on loving him romantically. Aerith also makes CLEAR statements she has moved on from Zack including her letter. Never was there a statement that Cloud had moved on from Aerith or that any of his feelings for her faded in any way.
@Danseru::
Cloud's untreated illness: Geostigma
lol
He runs from this problem and hides it from Tifa. It only causes more problems. He seeks out Aerith to find comfort, not Tifa. I think many people take this as an extremely big clue.
@I am not me:
Advent Children Complete does not ERASE the events of Advent Children. It only adds things.
I thought this was explained. Aerith is jealous Tifa gets to live on earth with Cloud. Tifa is actually jealous of Cloud and Aerith's RELATIONSHIP and Cloud's FEELINGS TOWARDS AERITH. huge difference.
Now here's the longest part, the response to Danseru-kun's CT quotes:
This was in the past. In the past it has only been referred to as a crush unlike the ZA relationship which actually said Zack and Aerith were in a relationship and they were sincerely in love. In fact Aerith is called Zack's girlfriend. None of this exists for Cloud and Tifa and if they confirmed their 'mutual' feelings of 'love' why is Tifa stilled referred to as his childhood friend? I think Cloud revealing how he really felt in the past, does not change the future. Finding the truth about the past does not erase the present.
The difference being he wants to stay true to this promise because it's important to him. Promises are important and shouldn't be broken but the fact is he often breaks the promise to protect Tifa and feels terrible about it each time. What's different is that it does not state that Tifa herself is forever in his heart, but simply his vow to her. Aerith is said to be engraved into Cloud's heart - not her words, not his promise to her, but Aerith HERSELF and everything she is.
They became aware of the truth of their child hood and where they stand in the present. It never says anything about love. They were completely honest with one another in what they believed was their final moments and they spent those moments together. I can see how people can take it romantically but for myself I do not see it as Aerith is still a big part of Cloud's being. Cloud revealed in the past he honestly crushed on Tifa. Tifa revealed she had a fondness for him too. They revealed that in the present they would be there for one another. Love is never mentioned even once.
I'd like to note that Cloud and Aerith can also be compared to many couples in the exact same way. That is why this debate even exists.
If in case of Tifa "kind of different" means love to some of you, then why is he saying that? I thought they already confirmed their feelings during the Highwind scene so why would he be saying that? I always felt they've grown stronger as friends in their relationship. I don't deny that Cloud and Tifa have a family but when she is referred to as a Mother and Cloud as a 'big kid' I am not feeling the love connection. Also Cid can make jokes about Tifa and Cloud, Marlene can say Aerith and Cloud are in love, but outside views do not change the truth of anything
Cloud opened his heart completely to Tifa yes because he revealed his secret feelings, his past, everything. Because they were child hood friends he was able to reveal this all to her Tifa is in fact the key to him discovering it all. I don't think that is neccessarily romantic. :I
It never says who Tifa is a sweetheart TO btw. I feel this is generally speaking, Tifa is like all of these things.
Interesting about the Kingdom Hearts thing where it says Tifa is not a tangible human being. If she exists as light, how can she be with Cloud? She will just dissipate just like Sephiroth when Cloud finally defeats him and then Cloud will return to Aerith.
BlankBeat
Pro Adventurer
In the original quote Nomura says he was "frequently asked" by fans about the nature of Cloud and Tifa's relationship. To me, this suggests he was faced with a constant barrage of questions regarding Cloud and Tifa's relationship. Therefore, his answer tells us he either "doesn't know" or "doesn't care" about Cloud and Tifa's relationship. To me, if there was a definitive answer he would tell us in order to put an end to fans asking about the nature of their relationship. However, since there isn't a definitive answer, he isn't able to give us one.Hawkeye said:
No. But as I've said before -- Cloud and Tifa are more than friends but less than lovers. None of the scenes you provided firmly establish Cloud and Tifa as romantic lovers only. There's no kiss between them. There's no "I love you". There's no scene where they are sleeping in the same bed, etc.Hawkeye said:
Furthermore, none of the scenes you provided are even remotely close to how SE portrays other canon Final Fantasy couples.
That quote doesn't prove Cloud and Tifa are in a romantic relationship. What it does prove is that there is a premise that things "aren't gong well" between Cloud and Tifa.Hawkeye said:
The way I read Nojima's quote, is that Cloud and Tifa were never able to take that next step and become lovers despite the HAHW scene taking place BECAUSE things "aren't going well" between them. They will forever be in this limbo stage where they are more than friends but less than lovers.
The premise from Nojima that things "aren't going well" between Cloud and Tifa, suggests that they were never able to take what happened during the HAHW scene and turn it into a romantic relationship. Nojima's premise is reinforced by the fact that we see nothing that unequivocally moves them from friends to lovers after the HAHW scene takes place.
Nojima's quote also establishes the idea that "perhaps things would have gone well with Aerith".
And the final idea it establishes is that even Marlene and Denzel might not be enough to help Cloud and Tifa work through their problems -- which suggests their problems might be too big to fix.
I disagree. Cloud and Aerith share a canon date together at Golden Saucer. To me, the Golden Saucer date is proof that mutual romantic feelings exist between Cloud and Aerith.Hawkeye said:
Most Final Fantasy couples are not shown going on such an extravagant date that takes up a fairly large portion of gameplay.
Cloud and Aerith's date is also supported by SE calling Cloud Aerith's "koibito," the "hero wavering between two heroines" quote, and because they refer to Aerith as a "love rival".
I'm fairly certain both of your examples occur in both the LAHW scene and the HAHW scene. Since both of your examples occur in both versions, there is no proof that they show mutual romantic feelings.Hawkeye said:
OK. Point taken. SE does show Cloud holding hands with his comrades in situations where it is a matter of life or death.Hawkeye said:
But aside from life or death situations, holding hands is commonly associated with romantic couples and is not something people typically do, aside from little girls playing or parents holding their child's hand when crossing a street (Cloud and Aerith do not fall under either of these categories). Therefore, the only type of category Cloud and Aerith fall under where holding hands is a typical behavior is the romantic kind.
Given Cloud and Aerith's relationship, it is obvious that the scene where they are shown holding hands is to be viewed romantically.
Cloud and Tifa do not have any physical contact that is as romantic as Cloud and Aerith holding hands. I maintain that SE showing Cloud and Aerith holding hands is the most obvious piece of romantic imagery we've seen Cloud exhibit between either Aerith or Tifa.
I'd love to read the quote where Aerith expresses jealously over Tifa in Maiden. I'm genuinely interested in reading this quote and comparing it to the instances Tifa has been jealous of.Hawkeye said:
Obviously all of these relationships are not exactly the same as one another. But the overall point I'm making is that SE has shown us characters that have continued to love someone *romantically* beyond death.Hawkeye said:
Quote? I'd love to analyze it.Hawkeye said:
But Cloud and Aerith are shown having a spiritual connection in AC. SE refers to Cloud's Promised Land as being Aerith's Church, the place where he shares a spiritual connection with Aerith. To me, this suggests they are continuing a relationship despite her being dead.Hawkeye said:
I've seen numerous translations that confirm the translation I gave. This is yet another disagreement over a translation that has no official translation.Hawkeye said:
But the way in which Aerith lives on inside of Cloud is unique and different than the ways she lives on inside of everyone else. Cloud and Aerith are the only two shown to have a strong spiritual connection in AC, which suggests that her consciousness lives on inside of Cloud in a much more powerful way. Cloud is able to share a spiritual connection with Aerith that no one else is able to share with her.Hawkeye said:
Sure, she lives on inside of everyone. But the way in which she lives on inside of Cloud is different and more powerful, as shown by the spiritual connection we see between them in AC.Hawkeye said:
Until we see Cloud and Tifa sleeping together, it seems only logical to assume Cloud sleeps in the bed/cot found in the four walls that is considered his own personal space.Hawkeye said:
Tifa calls it a room. And it only makes logical sense she would be referring to Cloud's personal room that has a bed/cot in it.Hawkeye said:
What could Cloud get out of protecting her, though? A date. That implies he was instantly attracted to Aerith romantically. And the fact that Cloud wants to continue protecting her long after their initial meeting further confirms these romantic feelings, especially under the context of how SE has described their relationship (Cloud is Aerith's "koibito").Hawkeye said:
I never said romance has a monopoly on the word "heart" in Japanese. But the word "heart" does have romantic connotations in Japanese culture, even if these connotations aren't as strong as they are in the United States.Hawkeye said:
But my point is that we must apply these quotes to the context of Cloud and Aerith's relationship.
If you can't apply the terms "Engraved in his heart" and "Wish in his heart" to the context of Cloud and Aerith's romantic relationship, it appears as though you are in denial about what these two quotes mean as it pertains to the romantic relationship that has been established between Cloud and Aerith by SE.
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robotwarui
kraplach
- AKA
- badrobot
Because some people NEED their ship to win.
It may be related to maintaining a belief ideal or hope for their own life. Something psychological. I volunteer myself first.
(stuff I wrote in a PM months ago)
Long story short,
A couple years ago I decided to play through FFVII, since I didn't finish it in 1997.
Later, a fan illustration of Tifa and Cloud made my heavy heart jump and then it felt light.
It stirred up something in me as I reflected on a past relationship
[….]
[it] left me with bittersweet feelings and by the next day my heart was light and it made me feel like I want to fall in love again.
So, in ways I can’t analyze, it helped me get over my past failed relationship and have hope for the future. If they can win, I no longer need to make a dead horse win. I have hope for something so much sweeter like the feelings they evoked from me, from my robot/Vulcan-like self.
So in a way, one could say I needed Cloud and Tifa to be cannon.
I'm good now, I just still love the pairing.
And then maybe there can be an ugly manifestation of such a need
(from an old high school essay)
I see this (unnamed?) psychological phenomenon at work: the one where someone or some group, in the midst of other facts and information, will push and rationalize and do whatever it takes to make themselves be right, to others and themselves, even if it involves bending/breaking the rules, abandoning certain principles, trashing or shutting down opposition; they will create ways to make it right, and/or to make sure they (and others) can't be wrong or bad. People will do this to fulfill a psychological need. It can happen on the larger scale like with politics.
Just for fun, anybody who ships, ask yourself why?
(It doesn't have to be deep. Maybe you just really enjoy debate.)
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Strangelove
AI Researcher
- AKA
- hitoshura
Aren't each of Cloud and Aerith's hand holding scenes life-and-death situations? (End of the original game where Cloud is brought back to reality, and in AC where she helps him in the same way everyone else has helped him to defeat Bahamut Shin.)
Kittie
General Eccentric
- AKA
- The Iron Witch
I don't know much about the Phantom of the Opera, but to me it seems like the romantic elements are much more in the forefront than in FF7. I find it more understandable that the fans would constantly argue whether the heroine lives happily ever after with her boyfriend, or spend the rest of her life cheating him emotionally with the creepy guy who killed himself over her. That doesn't make the canon-warping or the pandering adaptations any more excusable, though.
You know, oddly enough, I don’t think I’ve ever heard that about the French and their ships. I’d best not tell that to any Erik/Christine shippers; they might use it as cannon fodder against Raoul, even though Erik is also French. Christine is the only outlier of the trio since she’s Swedish, but I’m digressing.
But, yes, you’re indeed right about the story's romantic elements. The Phantom of the Opera’s plot is mainly driven by a love triangle, even though it’s partially written as a mystery/suspense/horror story as well. The correlation I’ve drawn between it and FFVII is that their respective fandoms have sometimes gotten out of hand with shipping and a need to establish canon. Character bashing is also bad on both sides, which is something else both fandoms unfortunately have in common. 
I also agree with you here. I like a lot of crack!ships and whatnot personally. Establishing canon is nice and everything, but I’m also fine if it isn’t. I’m actually fine about shipping a semi-platonic foursome with Cloud, Tifa, Zack, and Aerith. I’ll even add good old Sephy into the mix, simply for laughs and giggles!
<- How this cannot be a good thing is beyond me, really. :/But robotwarui sums it up perfectly in her response. Shipping was certainly a big thing when I was a teenager; it in part helped me get through high school, especially since I wasn’t rolling with a very social crowd in those days. However, I believe it can be taken to an extreme, and that can be bad for, not only the individual who ships whatever pairing, but for everyone involved. I think it can be dangerous for that kind of thing to consume a person’s life, and that’s why it’s always best to take a step back from that particular interest and appreciate other things in life. That’s my philosophy on shipping: it can be both good and bad, but it’s always for the best to realize the more important things, whatever they may be, and never take them for granted. Okay, I’m done waxing philosophical now.
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Unlucky
WHERE HAVE YOU BEEN
I dunno, I've called myself a shipper before, but I'm not really sure if you can call it 'shipping'..
When I first played the game (it wasn't in 1997 but perhaps a few years after that, since I was still young), I was really rooting for Clerith. I enjoyed each time I get to pick my dialogue in favor of it, I was furious that Aerith was killed, blah blah. I just preferred Aerith over Tifa that time, what with her being the pretty main heroine. If I had discovered the internetz around that time I can honestly imagine myself jumping at anyone who'll argue that the lifestream sequence is a big Cloti reveal, because somehow I've convinced myself that Clerith was meant to be.
I got over that afterwards, and by the time Advent Children came, I was like, "So.. he ended up with Tifa? Ok". I replayed the game, and realized there wasn't really anything suggesting my first notion that Clerith was 'meant to be'.
I also realized that I'm still very much emotionally attached to the game, but not so much to the romantic subplot in it.
And I just appreciated Cloti for what it is. I like the pairing, and I became more appreciative of Tifa's character. I dunno if you can call that shipping. I just happened to agree with the canon and enjoy the pairing, so I certainly don't feel that my 'ship' has won some shipping war.
null
Mr. Thou
- AKA
- null
Yeah, I've yet to see anyone on the CxT side argue that Tifa reaching for Cloud before he falls down into the Sector 5 church is romantic
Well it kind of is, at least for Tifa.
She might have jumped after him if Barret weren't holding her back.I was writing a longer answer, then Firefox decided to crash on me for the first time in months.
It's just that, while canon is very important in order not to misrepresent the story, I don't feel it should restrict what people are allowed to enjoy. Squeenix could turn their coat and make Clerith canon, it wouldn't change anything to the legitimacy of anyone's favorite ship. Death of the author, and all that jazz.
And since I am just repeating myself from my previous posts when I'm not just OT, and most of my initial post was rambling anyway, I think I'm done with the LTD!
The problem is not with our seafaring, just with our military navy. It's been a joke since the 19th century, with the Charles de Gaulle aircraft carrier as its punchline. The verb "saborder" (to scuttle) is much more commonly used in French than its English counterpart. Coincidence? I think not.
I can completely get behind that. Sorry if I sounded heartless with my snobby "I'm not a shipper" and "I don't care about canon" and "fuzzy feels don't matter vs. relationship dynamics". What you descibed is one of many reasons I love Cloti so much.
It's just that, while canon is very important in order not to misrepresent the story, I don't feel it should restrict what people are allowed to enjoy. Squeenix could turn their coat and make Clerith canon, it wouldn't change anything to the legitimacy of anyone's favorite ship. Death of the author, and all that jazz.
And since I am just repeating myself from my previous posts when I'm not just OT, and most of my initial post was rambling anyway, I think I'm done with the LTD!
null
Mr. Thou
- AKA
- null
I've been repeating myself and going off topic for seven years.
You can check out anytime you like / but you can never lee-eee-ave
The Twilight Mexican
Ex-SeeD-ingly good
- AKA
- TresDias
The "memory or us" line wasn't about Aerith. At that moment, Tifa didn't give a crap who Cloud wanted to bang.
The line in Japanese isn't even "Which is it, a memory or us?" She asked him "Did we lose to our memories?" She's asking him if the past is more than they can overcome. If he's going to let the fear of failing again cripple him so hard he won't even try to save the kids who need him right at that moment.
She's not asking about romance. She's trying to save the kids.
Junko said:
Cloud and Tifa's creators disagree with your assessment of how she deals with Cloud. Nomura on pg. 20 of the Reunion Files:
“Tifa is a strong woman. She doesn’t like what Cloud is doing,
but instead of lecturing him about every little thing, she’s
been waiting for him to realize for himself what his actions
are doing. She’s remarkably strong, not only emotionally,
but physically as well. I think that using words to help lead
Cloud to his own conclusions, instead of constant lecture,
is a defining quality of Tifa’s personality.”
According to Nomura, Tifa deals with Cloud without nagging him and in a constructive fashion. Anything fans have read into it differently is simply wrong.
That indicates exactly the opposite of Tifa being "brash with her words."
And how is someone "gentle but blunt"?
Junko said:
Am I going to get an answer about whose koibito she is then?
Junko said:
You'd have a point if Cloud were looking to Aerith for comfort. He isn't.
His comfort is his home and family, where's he happy. But that's something which he believes he doesn't deserve. He's denying himself comfort, not seeking it. He's accepted that he has failed his family and doesn't deserve them, so he removes himself from their presence. He's unworthy. A burden. A failure.
That's what he believes.
He goes to the church to ask for forgiveness before death takes him. He's not there because he's happy there.
Junko said:
You know that's not true. Look at Cloud and Sephiroth's battle again, then say this with a straight face. A good bit was erased, and that includes Aerith in the flower field during the credits.
No matter how many times you watch Advent Children Complete, you will not see her there.
Junko said:
So Tifa is jealous of Aerith's relationship with Cloud while Aerith is jealous that Tifa can continue to have a relationship with Cloud since she herself cannot?
Please think that over.
Junko said:
The word is "koibito," not "sweetheart." You're familiar enough with the LTD to know that word's meanings.
Nomura only says that she is like a mother. Is she only "like" an ally in battle and not really one of those as well?
The quote is "like a mother, is an ally in battle, and is a koibito." The grammar could not be more clear.
Junko said:
I don't know of anyone who claims that Cloud and Tifa could have a romantic relationship in the Kingdom Hearts universe. It's typically those arguing CxA as canon who push for the notion that being someone's light is an inherently romantic thing.
As you said, Tifa would vanish just like Sephiroth once Cloud resolves his
inner conflict. They would both return to their place within Cloud.
Thanks for not replying to the primary point I made: "And maybe it has been [settled]? Do you have any evidence that he's been asked about it since the fall of 2005?"
Blank said:
Unlike Aerith, I guess?
Blank said:
Unlike Aerith, I guess?
And SE describes Cloud and Tifa's moments of great confession in identical wording to other canon Final Fantasy couples.
Blank said:
Were the date alone proof enough of that, it would prove the same with Tifa, Yuffie and Barret, wouldn't it?
Not that I'm challenging Cloud having feelings for her. He does. I'm challenging the reasoning behind your claim.
Blank said:
What you said is that there is no dialogue between them similar to other canon couples. I pointed some out to you. Whatever tangent you've gone off on now has nothing to do with the point we were discussing.
Blank said:
You do recall that both hand reach scenes with Cloud and Aerith were life-and-death situations, yes? One of them being, in fact, the same life-and-death situation where all of his friends gave him a boost?
You're talking like they were taking a stroll in the park. This is daft.
Blank said:
Yeah, when you misrepresent the nature of the hand holding and ignore Cloud and Tifa sleeping next to each other after a physically intimate evening.
Blank said:
----
Both were enveloped in mako as they sank into the Planet.
Cloud's second time; Tifa's first experience.
Aerith bet everything on this one chance.
She eagerly turned her attention to Tifa, whose mind was
being overwhelmed in the highly concentrated mako. Aerith
guided her consciousness into Cloud's closed mind.
In truth, she wanted to do it herself. However, Aerith could
not play this role. Therefore, she entrusted it to Tifa. She
entrusted Tifa with all the feelings she had for Cloud in her
own heart. To the person who would "live" together with
Cloud ...
And Tifa succeeded. Comparing her memories with Cloud's
memories, she looked for those things only the real Cloud
could know. This serving as proof, the closed door was
opened. She released the memories that were firmly locked
up in the bottom of his heart; he didn't get to be a SOLDIER,
but due to an ability from Jenova he had been imbued with,
Cloud, an ordinary soldier, copied the traits of his best friend,
Zack. She restored him to his natural personality rather than
the fake one he had created to maintain his sense of self.
"You did it, Tifa. Thank you ... I'm a bit jealous of you, but
look after Cloud ― and the upper world too, please."
Aerith watched as they returned to the surface with Tifa
pulled up against Cloud, who was back to his senses. She
smiled like an affectionate mother, though.
Japanese text:
ふたりは魔晄に包まれ、星の内部へと落ちてくる。クラウドは再び、ティファは初めての体験として。
この千載一遇のチャンスに、エアリスはすべてを賭けた。
高濃度の魔晄に浸かって混乱するティファに、エアリスは懸命に語りかける。その意識を、クラウドの閉ざされた心の中へと誘導してやる。
本当なら、自分自身がやりたかったこと。けれどその役割はエアリスには果たせない。だから彼女はティファに託す。ティファの中にある、クラウドを想心にすべてを委ねる。彼とともに、゛生きて゛いく者に――。
そして、ティファにやり遂げる。クラウドの記憶と自分の思い出を照合し、本当のクラウドにしか知り得ないはずのことを探り当てる。それが証明となって、閉じた扉は開かれた。ソルジャーにはなれず、植えつけられたジェノバの能力で親友ザックスのくせを複製した一兵士クラウドを、強固な殼に守られた記憶の奥底から引き揚げる。自我を保つために彼自身が創り上げたフェイクではない、本来あるべき人格へと再生させる。
「やったね、ティファ。ありがとう……ちょっとだけ妬けちゃうけど、クラウドのこと――それから上の世界のこと、頼むね」
正気を取り戻したクラウドに、ティファが寄り添って地上に戻っていくのをエアリスは見届ける。慈母のように、微笑みながら。
Source scan:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v132/Squall_of_Seed/
aerithblessing_zps084fc133.jpg
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Blank said:
And that's up for debate? That's not an issue.
What is at issue are the much grander claims you've been making that you need to substantiate: That Cloud and Aerith not only can continue a romantic relationship, but that they do.
Right now you've got to deal with there being no contact between them for the two years prior to Advent Children (Case of the Lifestream White makes that abundantly clear), and then Aerith being said to go back where she belongs -- i.e. the Lifestream -- after Advent Children (10th Anniversary Ultimania).
Blank said:
pg. 577 of the FFVII Ultimania Omega
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And she watched as the shadowy figures looked at her from the hazy world on the other side (the world of living things was already another world to her).
Japanese text:
そして、その向こうに霞む他界から（生けるものの世界は彼女にとってすでに他界なのだ）自分を見っめる人影を。
Source scans:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v132/Squall_of_Seed/ffviiuo577_zpsaf3a40ae.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v132/Squall_of_Seed/ffviiuo577-2_zps4f616afe.jpg
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pg. 578 of the FFVII Ultimania Omega
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The people she had been close to, such as her adoptive mother, Elmyra, and the comrades she had journeyed with to save the Planet; as well as the people she knew only a little, and those she may have met in the future, but would now never see ― the truth was that she could no longer associate with "living people."
Japanese text:
星を救うために一緒に旅をした仲間からたちや、彼女の面倒を15年も見てくれた育ての母エルミナをはじめとする近しい人たち、そしてわずかでも関わりを持った人々に、未来に出会うことがあったのかも知れない、今はまだ見知れぬ人々――もう彼らと゛生きた人間゛として触れ合えないのは事実だからだ。
Source scans:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v132/Squall_of_Seed/withtheliving1_zps64352df4.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v132/Squall_of_Seed/withtheliving2_zpsefd19934.jpg
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Blank said:
That last part is you editorializing, not what SE actually said.
And if Aerith was living in Cloud's body, why would the church be where he has a connection with her rather than, ya know, anywhere?
Blank said:
You're going to have to do way better than that when the same page you're selectively referencing says she leaves.
Blank said:
Then you have been misled. I've placed the proof in front of your eyes. The line does not identify Cloud specifically; it identifies 生きている人 -- "living people," "those who are living," "living persons," etc. If you refuse to so much as open a single damned online translator (those be links; click them), then that is your problem, not mine.
Blank said:
You're making all of this up. You're stating things as fact for which you have no evidence -- claims which are soundly trounced by the source material you cite.
Aerith has spiritual connections to both Marlene and Tifa as well, both of whom sense her. Cloud's not even unique in being able to see her! Kadaj sees her, as do a couple of random children in the church.
Not only that, but Zack appears to Cloud just like Aerith.
There is nothing unique about this between Cloud and Aerith. Like Nomura said, Cloud sees Aerith because the dead live on through those who still live.
Blank said:
It only seems logical to assume the man has an actual bedroom.
Blank said:
Which is within the living space/apartment ("room") behind the business side of the building.
Blank said:
Attraction and romantic feelings aren't the same thing. I've been on dates with women I was attracted to but didn't have what I would call "romantic feelings" for. I've had sex with many of the same.
Again, he does have romantic feelings for her, but there is zero reason to believe he had any at the time of the agreement.
Not that I know why we're even debating this. But you brought it up and I disagree.
Blank said:
It appears you're deciding all on your own what they mean, while selectively ignoring them when the same shit gets used for Tifa. Once again, take "wish in his heart" as romantic if you want, but have you to do the same for "engraved in his heart" with the promise to Tifa. They both use "mune." You can't have one without the other.
Dashell
SMILE!
- AKA
- Sonique, Quexinos, Pinkie Pie, Derpy Hooves
Hell I'll even do it for you. Here's the text:
死んでも意識というものがいつまでも残っている
クラウドがACの本編中に何度もエアリスの姿を見ているんですけど、その意識を、死んだ人の命を感じているから見えているというか
そこにその意識があると言うよりは、生きている人の中にその意識があるからそこに見えているというか。
google said:
excite said:
bing said:
and for good measure:
Babelfish said:
I don't have anything else to add, I just wanted to see the funny translations.
Roger
He/him
- AKA
- Minato
So? Perhaps doesn't say much, he doesn't consider it probably or likely, just "perhaps". If Tifa was dead we could've gotten the same line.
OMG Cloud and Denzel were DYING at the end of Case of Tifa. It wasn't just about their relationship. How many times do I have to point this out?!
You can have a canon date with anyone in the Golden Saucer. You show me where Nojima or anyone says "Aerith's date happened, not Tifa's."
I'd have to say Squall and Rinoa, Zidane and Garnet and Yuna and Tidus spent equivalent if not more one-on-one time together actually.
Marlene and Tifa are also shown to sense Aerith's presence in AC. And Aerith's Church is the place he visited and was staying at. We aren't shown him sharing anything with Aerith there prior to AC.
No she does not. She lives on in the Lifestream. Place, quite seperate from Cloud where she the entire time prior to AC was doing things without being aware of any connection happening between her and Cloud. She made contact with him to save the world.
What part of this
Gives you the idea that Aerith is concurrently maintaining a active romantic relationship with Cloud?
Cloud wanting to continue protecting her confirms romantic feelings? Aren't there a couple of other partymembers he continues to protect LOOOOOOONG after Barret gave him his paycheck?
Splintered
unsavory tart
Haven't finished reading everything but
Cloud is running away, he's turning his back on his kids which at this moment are in Mortal Peril. He's scared he'd let them down, he's scared they'll die, so he won't fight. This is despite one of them beating the crap out of Tifa, making it so that he's probably the only one strong enough to take them down.
Tifa's not talking about who Cloud is fapping to at night, she's asking him not to become a victim of his own fears, she's asking him not to walk away from someone that really needs him because he can't get over his past failures. She's asking him not to turn people away that will help him.
Even Reno and Rude tell him to go. And Reno and Rude did things like mass killings.
It makes little sense considering she doesn't actually want him to let go of his memories. Why would Tifa wear a pink ribbon if she wants to forget Aerith? Why would she smile and say "thank you" to Aerith. In CoT, Tifa doesn't tell him to stop going to the church, she's asking him to let them go together. When Tifa says that Denzel wasn't brought to him, it was brought to their home, Cloud smiles. Tifa loved Aerith as a friend, she knows she's important to Cloud.
What Tifa wanted, however, was not to be so consumed with fear, anxiety, depression, and forced loneliness to the point it would have created another tragedy.
Because it would have.
THANK FUCK MAN. The way LTD people treat this line is the reason why it needs to be reinforced that the main point of AC isn't romantic, otherwise they construct basic conversations about "ME OR HERRRr"
Cloud is running away, he's turning his back on his kids which at this moment are in Mortal Peril. He's scared he'd let them down, he's scared they'll die, so he won't fight. This is despite one of them beating the crap out of Tifa, making it so that he's probably the only one strong enough to take them down.
Tifa's not talking about who Cloud is fapping to at night, she's asking him not to become a victim of his own fears, she's asking him not to walk away from someone that really needs him because he can't get over his past failures. She's asking him not to turn people away that will help him.
Even Reno and Rude tell him to go. And Reno and Rude did things like mass killings.
It makes little sense considering she doesn't actually want him to let go of his memories. Why would Tifa wear a pink ribbon if she wants to forget Aerith? Why would she smile and say "thank you" to Aerith. In CoT, Tifa doesn't tell him to stop going to the church, she's asking him to let them go together. When Tifa says that Denzel wasn't brought to him, it was brought to their home, Cloud smiles. Tifa loved Aerith as a friend, she knows she's important to Cloud.
What Tifa wanted, however, was not to be so consumed with fear, anxiety, depression, and forced loneliness to the point it would have created another tragedy.
Because it would have.
Master Bates
Do you enjoy your life?
- AKA
- Mr. Koiwai
Yeah, I've yet to see anyone on the CxT side argue that Tifa reaching for Cloud before he falls down into the Sector 5 church is romantic
It's romantic. There.
Deal with it.
Sorry for the spam. The thread's just getting too serious.
Ryushikaze
Deus Admiral Parsimonious, PHD, DDS, MD, JD, OBE
- AKA
- Tim, Ryu
Yes, but that's more to the context of her basically flinging herself to catch him, rather than just the reach, plus the mirror action of Cloud failing to save her from falling when they were kids compared to her failing to save him now, which actually finally culminates in the end of the game with him finally successfully saving her from falling at the last second.
Also, wow, go and have a social life and this thing explodes.
Mostly with "There's not enough evidence to show Cloud and Tifa are a couple despite living together, but there totally is enough to prove Cloud and Aerith have one despite her never talking with him after she died until the movie and then leaving immediately afterwards. Totally. I swear. I have it. Stop demanding I show it to you! It's there! Besides, you can't prove Cloud and Tifa anyways!"
Seriouly, again, if we can figure out that Lifestream white's "Woman" is actually Aerith, we can figure out who Tifa is the lover or beloved of.
Hint: It's Cloud.
Also, wow, go and have a social life and this thing explodes.
Mostly with "There's not enough evidence to show Cloud and Tifa are a couple despite living together, but there totally is enough to prove Cloud and Aerith have one despite her never talking with him after she died until the movie and then leaving immediately afterwards. Totally. I swear. I have it. Stop demanding I show it to you! It's there! Besides, you can't prove Cloud and Tifa anyways!"
Seriouly, again, if we can figure out that Lifestream white's "Woman" is actually Aerith, we can figure out who Tifa is the lover or beloved of.
Hint: It's Cloud.
Kermitu Kleric Katie
KULT OF KERMITU
Earlier in this thread I remember someone saying there is hypocrisy on both sides of the LTD after I pointed out how hypocritical many cleriths can be, but I'm going to have to disagree. I have yet to see any clotis be hypocritical. If someone can show me an example of a cloti being hypocritical, I will retract my statement. But as of yet, I've only seen hypocrisy on the clerith side.
Dashell
SMILE!
- AKA
- Sonique, Quexinos, Pinkie Pie, Derpy Hooves
Can you please stop posting shit like this? It's extremely annoying. This is not the bash what you think Cleritths are thread. If you have nothing to add, don't reply
- Status