The Love Triangle Debate thread of KNEEL BEFORE ZOD OR SUFFER HIS WRATH (ignore the opening posts at your peril) (Round 6)

[null]

Quick show of hands: anyone's mind changed yet?

Lurkers feel free to chime in here

 

[Strangelove]

mine has changed into stupefied mush, does that count?

 

[Kermitu Kleric Katie]

Y'know, I once managed to convert a neutral(who preferred cloti, but thought it was up to interpretation) to the side that thinks cloti is canon over at GameFAQs.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

...and why won't he ever forget these things?

...could it possibly have to do with the feelings he has...?

Well, that's not a shady attempt to dodge the point at all.

Of course it has to deal with his feelings -- except where Tifa's concerned, amirite folks?

The English translation translates it to exactly what the phrase means... "engraved in the heart" means to never forget. I'm pretty sure you've been told this.

He has. He just doesn't care.

Same with how Tifa's promise is etched in his heart... it means he'll never forget it...

More to the point, the same verb for "etched"/"engraved" was used in both cases, so let's not hear any more of that "an etching isn't as deep as an engraving!" nonsense.

and you left out angeal/zack, the most romantic handreaching scene of all time. glorious white light, jpop ballad playing, angels and stuff leading zack to paradise

gay paradise am i right

My bad, yo! I left out the most important one.

I also just checked to refresh my memory, and XIII-2 has two separate hand-reach sequences for Noel and Serah where they actually make physical contact and in non-life threatening situations.

In the same game, there's also two hand-reach scenes between Serah and her sister (granted, it's not really Lightning on either occasion). Serah's not just a slut. She's a kinky slut! I like.

Guess Snow is out of the picture, huh?

Okay, so updated list with detailed breakdown:

-Sora and Kairi (x2); physical contact on both occasions; mutual extension on both occasions; non-life threatening both times
-Sora and Riku (x3); no contact; mutual extension all three times; metaphorical opening sequence first two times; both being swallowed by Darkness third time
-Celes and Locke (x2); physical contact on both occasions; mutual extension on both occasions; life threatening both times
-Angeal and Zack; "physical contact"; mutual extension; both parties already dead
-Barret and Dyne; physical contact; mutual extension; life threatening
-Cloud and Aerith (x2); contact one time; mutual extension both times; life threatening both times
-Cloud and Tifa (x3); contact on third occasion; extension only by Tifa on first two occasions (Cloud was unable to extend his hand either time); mutual extension on third occasion; life threatening each time
-Cloud and Barret; physical contact; mutual extension; life threatening
-Cloud and Vincent; physical contact; mutual extension; life threatening
-Aerith and Kadaj; "physical contact"; mutual extension; both parties already dead
-Squall and Rinoa; no contact; extension only by Rinoa; life threatening
-Tidus and Yuna; physical contact; mutual extension; non-life threatening
-Tidus and Jecht; "physical contact"; mutual extension; both parties already dead
-Snow and Serah; physical contact; mutual extension; life threatening
-Snow and Nora; physical contact; extension only by Snow; life threatening
-Snow and Fang/Vanille; no contact; extension only by Snow; life threatening
-Noel and Serah (x2); physical contact both times; mutual extension; non-life threatening both times
-Lightning and Serah (x2); physical contact one time; mutual extension one time; non-life threatening both times (though Serah was trapped in a dream world and this phantom wasn't really Lightning)

From where I'm sitting, hand-reaches mean jack shit.

And the fact that a breakdown of something like this is even necessary just demonstrates how asinine this has all gotten. BlankBeat, you're really reaching (haha!).

 

[Kermitu Kleric Katie]

Oh Tres, you so punny. :cloti::clerith: I must say, I love these smilies.

 

[Strangelove]

Sora and Riku actually have a second, real hand reaching scene during the first game (on Destiny Island during the storm, Riku reaches his hand out to Sora before disappearing into darkness).

 

[Danseru-kun]

Nomura's first quote is addressing the 2 years after FFVII. During the two years after FFVII, the status of their relationship is unclear because in the beginning of CoT things seemed to be going well between them, but towards the end of CoT, things seemed to be going downhill. Therefore, the 2 years after FFVII the status of their relationship is unknown. The HAHW scene does not necessarily lead to a *romantic* relationship because nothing unequivocally moves them from friends to lovers during CoT.

Nomura's second quote is addressing AC, when the "truth" of their relationship finally becomes clear. Nomura does not tell us what this "truth" is, therefore it is left up to interpretation. The truth that I see is that Cloud and Tifa are incompatible together and will never work out.
-This is supported by Nojima's premise that thing's "aren't going well" between them.
-This is supported by Nojima not knowing if even Denzel and Marlene will be enough to help them sort through their problems.
-This is supported by Tifa not knowing if Cloud loves her.
-This is supported by the "maternal bond" Tifa feels toward Cloud that drives him away and causes him to stop speaking to her.
-This is supported by Tifa's jealously she feels toward Cloud visiting Aerith's Church.

Nomura's two quotes are addressing two different time periods. The "truth" of their relationship wasn't clear until AC, when we finally see the complete breakdown of their relationship.

*still working on my all encompassing response*

Ignored this post I made a while ago:

In the past you’ve always looked after me, you [Marlene,] Denzel and Tifa. You were there whenever I needed you. Now it’s my turn
.- Cloud in ACC

This is Cloud's words. He knows better than any of us.

Oh, I just remembered. I wanted to write Cloud as a person, seen through Tifa’s eyes. But he really isn’t the type to open up (laughs). ~Nojima, interview about On the Way to a Smile

Tifa, who from 2 years ago has been the only one Cloud opened his heart to. Now he has closed off his heart even from her. ~AC Prologue Book

Tifa is a strong woman. She doesn’t like what Cloud is doing, but instead of lecturing him about every little thing, she’s been waiting for him to realize for himself what his actions are doing. She’s remarkably strong, not only emotionally, but physically as well. I think that using words to help lead Cloud to his own conclusions, instead of constant lecture, is a defining quality of Tifa’s personality. -Nomura page 20. Reunion Files


Apart from being Cloud’s childhood friend, she is also the woman who understands him all too well and devotedly supports the mentally-weak side of him. FFVII 10thAnniversary Ultimania Tifa Lockhart Character Profile p 42-47

With the support of former allies and Tifa, an important woman to him and now also part of his family, Cloud regains the courage to move forward. - Cloud Strife Profile FFVII10th AU

Note some of these quotes are talking about AC. These are facts.

Tifa's "so that's what am mother feels like" doesn't need to refer to Cloud, it's because she's the mother of the family. And heck sometimes I and my own mother feel motherly to my own dad because he acts like kids, spending too much on motorbike and gadgets, eating sweets even my dad has diabetes and I have to stop him. Having maternal feelings does not other bonds you have. My dad is still my dad and my mom's koibito just like what Cloud is to Tifa and vice versa despite maternal feelings.

My friend never talked to me because she got jealous of my friendship with her boyfriend, which is a guy who shared many interests with me. Does that mean me and her boyfriend love each other?

You keep on ignoring facts and insisting your opinions as valid arguments. You ignore the fact that "do you love me" is asked between couples in a healthy relationship. You ignore the fact that jealously does not prove romance.

'Kay guys sorry I can't help it. Gotta exit again.

 

[Dashell]

...and why won't he ever forget these things?

...could it possibly have to do with the feelings he has...?

So you're not going to answer my question?

 

[OneWingedDemon]

Sora and Riku actually have a second, real hand reaching scene during the first game (on Destiny Island during the storm, Riku reaches his hand out to Sora before disappearing into darkness).

They also stand/fight back to back

...and why won't he ever forget these things?

What things? Aeris? You want him to forget the chick he beat up and then watched as she was murdered in front of him? And who then later saved all of their asses? Gee, I can't think of a reason he'd even remember her.

It's not like the man has fond flashbacks of their date or something in AC, the movie supposedly all about how miserable Cloud is with Tifa and how much more Aeris understands him. I mean, at least Zack gets some other memories, but the only thing we get for Aeris are her damn death scenes, because all that SE want to foreground is fucking guilt.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Sora and Riku actually have a second, real hand reaching scene during the first game (on Destiny Island during the storm, Riku reaches his hand out to Sora before disappearing into darkness).

Thanks for that. I'll edit it onto the list.

 

[Ryushikaze]

They also stand/fight back to back

What things? Aeris? You want him to forget the chick he beat up and then watched as she was murdered in front of him? And who then later saved all of their asses? Gee, I can't think of a reason he'd even remember her.

It's not like the man has fond flashbacks of their date or something in AC, the movie supposedly all about how miserable Cloud is with Tifa and how much more Aeris understands him. I mean, at least Zack gets some other memories, but the only thing we get for Aeris are her damn death scenes, because all that SE want to foreground is fucking guilt.

Not only that, but we get that same death scene specifically contrasted with Cloud about to Tifa, spurring him to save her heroically, at the same time Zack's death scene is contrasted with his adopted son about to die spurring Cloud to save him spectacularly too. Cloud remembers letting Aerith die as a failure he can't repeat, same as he does Zack's.

He's lost people before. He's not going to lose any more. That's pretty much what the Flashbacks to dead people MEAN in Advent Children. "I feel guilt for failing you, please forgive me." Or "My inaction led to your death. NOT AGAIN."

There's really jack else in there.

 

[Kittie]

My word. This thread has practically exploded since I've been away on spring break. :\ I've caught up on the last several pages of discussion, and I feel that a lot of points have already been well addressed by Que and everyone else, but I will weigh in on Tifa's "Do you love me?" question to Cloud from Case of Tifa.

I believe Danseru, Someone Named Octo, and a few others have explained this very well already. Edit: I actually second their thoughts regarding it since I've even asked my own boyfriend that question. It's very human to have insecurities about a relationship. It's also very human to be uncertain, when it comes to matters of the heart. It happens. I've never once thought that my relationship with my boyfriend was dysfunctional because of it. I'd honestly be surprised if a person in a relationship didn't ask their significant other that question at some point. I can't even understand how this quote is made to prove that Cloud and Tifa aren't in a relationship since it rather implies the opposite. The girl has insecurities, yes. Given the circumstances surrounding Cloud after delivering Elmyra's bouquet of flowers to Aerith's grave, it actually makes sense for her to ask him that question. He’s closing himself off, even to her—as stated by SE in the AC prologue book.

As for the whole maternal feeling thing, that's actually mentioned before the "Do you love me?" segment, so that really makes no sense whatsoever for Tifa to simply want to be Cloud's mother and then lover at the same time. Just take a look at what’s said before that:

Tifa burst out in laughter. Cloud went on about how he got paid a little for delivering items. He explained to her how he felt guilty spending it all on the modifications for the bike. Tifa thought he was just like a kid. It may have been a little sad that Cloud had found another world that I didn’t know about but, the fact that his world was expanding was a welcoming thought. Yes, it was similar to the feelings a mother would have. Tifa walked Cloud outside, enjoying the new feeling that was welling up inside her.

The guy is acting almost like a kid, hence the comparison of Tifa to a mother. The “similar” in that specific sentence, by the way, is important. It's just a comparison, very much like a simile or a metaphor. It’s not to be taken literally.

The important part in the above quotation is Tifa’s POV. She doesn’t once express her enjoying the prospect of simply being his mother; she’s glad that his world is expanding, that he’s getting out and meeting people and being social, etc., etc., etc. As such, it makes sense for her to be happy that he’s going out and doing things on his own. That happens when children begin to grow up and leave home. Their world expands beyond that of the family. Tifa sees this with Cloud, and her feelings on the matter don’t necessarily mean that she wants to only be his mother—in fact the following “Do you love me?” rather emphasizes the opposite. On a side note, Aerith is mentioned to smile “like an affectionate mother” when Cloud and Tifa depart from the Lifestream in Maiden. The whole "love rival" thing in the 10th Anniversary Ultimania also goes against the notion of this mother argument. Again, I fail to understand why this whole mother thing is used as evidence for either side. It's established that both women love Cloud; no more, and certainly no less. Maybe I've been away from the forums for too long. Four days is an awfully long time, methinks!

 

[Unlucky]

So you're not going to answer my question?

You are not 'harassing' him enough

 

[JayM]

Just chiming in to agree that, since the party line over on CxA now is that fan translations aren't to be used even when they're just being used to clarify the official one, I really want to know why that "engraved in his heart" BS is still getting tossed around.

Harass harass harass.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Seriously? They aren't accepting any translations that someone wasn't paid by Square or Sony to do?

This has to be the most depserate attempt at defeating reality yet.

I don't think it's going to stick. Honestly, I really don't. There's no way whoever came up with that talking point considered the implications of it, or at least they will inevitably fail to stand by them.

It would mean no more Ultimania quotes. Ever. Not one. No "love rivals" quote. No "Cloud told Marlene he hopes Tifa likes him" quote (you guys are welcome for that one, by the way ). No "there might still be hope for Cait Sith's wedding prediction" nonsense.

No raped "undying feeling" quote.
No "Nomura hasn't got a clue about Cloti" quote.
No "Nojima said things might have gone better with Aerith."
No "Aerith is engraved in Cloud's heart."
No Case of the Lifestream White "koibito" quote.

Really, they're prepared to throw all that away? I don't believe it for one second.

How would that even benefit their preferred version of reality? So the "communicated their feelings" quotes are gone. Big deal. The Official Crisis Core Strategy Guide still says the High Affection Highwind scene happened. The Reunion Files still has an official English translation, as does Case of Tifa.

At best, they'd pick up Tifa telling Cloud to drink in "his room" (his office still gets called his office twice in the official translation, though) and Aerith's consciousness living inside of Cloud. Woohoo?

And I guess they could pretend Cloud wasn't actually looking for Sephiroth in Kingdom Hearts for a few more months until the HD upgrade of Final Mix gets released with an official English translation.

They'll still have all of Nojima's quotes from the Reunion Files to contend with, Nomura calling her someone's sweetheart, Cloud and Tifa living together, as well as an invitation to Cid to say something that implies a romantic relationship -- something like Tifa wearing the pants in their relationship (which isn't what he actually says in Japanese, but you can't trust me since I'm just a biased, uneducated fan ).

What a laughable feat of desperation.

 

[Splintered]

I think what was meant to say was not that they don't take non official quotes, but since there was no official quote given, they are allowed to pick the fan translation that feels right to them.

But I don't think it's right to ignore Tres's huge ass post dissecting the quote piece by piece. Any translator showing exactly how the sentence is constructed should be given weight, and it's probably the only constructive thing to come out of this mess.

If a translator says "There is no comparison" and another says "there is a comparison" and you have no knowledge of the translators qualifications/previous translations than yeah. I get it. And I favor Tres and Hito and you obviously favor your own translator.

If a translator has shown broken down the entire sentence, shown you the lack of any words that denotes comparison, broken down the rules of Japanese grammar that even I can understand, and presented why his/her translation would be more accurate... then why ignore it?

 

[OneWingedDemon]

Is this a bad time to bring up Wacdonalds and bito = slang for hito and whatever the fuck?

 

[JayM]

Seriously? They aren't accepting any translations that someone wasn't paid by Square or Sony to do?

Ah no bad phrasing on my part. In cases where there is no existing "official" translation, fan translations are fair game.

But where there is an official English version, the official English version is all that can be looked at, because if SE wanted it to be clearer they would've made it clearer or something IDEK that's basically why I don't even go there anymore.

At the risk of an infraction for bringing up specific stuff said over there, it actually came up in the context of the Reunion Files quote about Tifa being a sweetheart. She's "like" a sweetheart. Because even though the Japanese is not ambiguous at all, the English is, and SE's translator obviously has the LTD at the forefront of his/her mind and meant it to be that way.

If a translator has shown broken down the entire sentence, shown you the lack of any words that denotes comparison, broken down the rules of Japanese grammar that even I can understand, and presented why his/her translation would be more accurate... then why ignore it?

And that is why I like TLS better.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Is this a bad time to bring up Wacdonalds and bito = slang for hito and whatever the fuck?

It is NEVER a bad time to bring up Wacdonalds and Hitobito shennanigans.

 

[null]

What does Cid say if not wearing the pants...?

 

[Dashell]

If a translator has shown broken down the entire sentence, shown you the lack of any words that denotes comparison, broken down the rules of Japanese grammar that even I can understand, and presented why his/her translation would be more accurate... then why ignore it?

Because it's Cloti!





And okay fine, fan translations are out... so Aerith is no longer engraved in Cloud's heart... awesome

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

What does Cid say if not wearing the pants...?

He basically says "In the end, the women are the strong ones."

I don't have the Japanese text on me right this minute because I'm at the store posting from my phone, but if anybody needs it badly, I'll get it later.

 

[Ryushikaze]

He basically says "In the end, the women are the strong ones."

I don't have the Japanese text on me right this minute because I'm at the store posting from my phone, but if anybody needs it badly, I'll get it later.

Still, the unspoken implication that it's the same for him and Sierra remains.

 

[Selphie Tilmitt]

Where confusion enters is also partly due to what someone means by "CxA." Mutual feelings that never got addressed?

Something like this

Established relationship prior to death?

I like to think so To an extent yes, it was something that was in the/a process but hadn't reached the level/stage of people in relationship/something that was consummated as lovers or those who are/have/had been in a relationship for years.

Ever developing relationship after death?

In AUs/cameos?

One of those at the exclusion of Cloud and Tifa also having mutual feelings/CxT otherwise being canon too in some way, shape or form?

Nah.

 

[Roger]

You guys went through a lot in a one night.

Tetsuya Nomura: What kind of question is that? I've never thought about it. Honestly, I don't care who loves whom.

I'm sorry BlankBeat but unless there is a very different translation for all this that is not so general, you cannot screw this around to ONLY apply to the two years between FFVII and AC. The Director of AC doesn't care who loves whom, and has NEVER thought about it.