The Love Triangle Debate thread of KNEEL BEFORE ZOD OR SUFFER HIS WRATH (ignore the opening posts at your peril) (Round 6)

[ClerithRaven]

Wait, wut? If it wasn't needed then why did you ask for it? Genuinely confused here, especially since Tres only took the time to get this posted due to your sincere request for it.

I did not need his detailed explanation. I was wondering how being BlankBeat was being dishonest when it came to the quote and the translation he had. The explanation is for BlankBeat then to address, and not mine. I just called the attention of the one who had another translation to see how BlankBeat became dishonest. Get it?

Just clarifying.

 

[Junko Enoshima]

The "memory or us" line wasn't about Aerith. At that moment, Tifa didn't give a crap who Cloud wanted to bang.

The line in Japanese isn't even "Which is it, a memory or us?" She asked him "Did we lose to our memories?" She's asking him if the past is more than they can overcome. If he's going to let the fear of failing again cripple him so hard he won't even try to save the kids who need him right at that moment.

She's not asking about romance. She's trying to save the kids.

I think that yes she is speaking about those other things, but one of the things in Cloud's past is also Aerith. She has complicated feelings about Cloud and Aerith's relationship even though Aerith has passed on. While all of these other things are included, Aerith is included in this line as well as he is still wanting to meet her and be near to her even though she's a spirit now. At least that's my interpretation of things.
Moving onto the quote you posted about Tifa? That is what I mean. Tifa is strong with the way she acts. Which is why I say she is less gentle than Aerith would be about the way she phrases things. For instance Tifa says: You think you've got it so damn hard! While when we see Aerith she teases Cloud saying things like "Isn't it time you did the forgiving?" and "By whom?" And the tone of her voice suggests that she is being light hearted and playful. Gentle, but to the point. Tifa on the other hand is forceful. While she lets Cloud form his own conclusion she speaks to him in a very different way. That's all I'm saying.

Am I going to get an answer about whose koibito she is then?

Not from me you are not lol. It's not up to me to say? I feel like the quote is a general statement. That she is like all of those things rather than that she is definitely all of these things to someone. And I also said earlier I would refuse to comment on anything relating to the word koibito But I'm sure plenty of other Clerith fans will tell you otherwise lol.
When you say Cloud isn't looking to Aerith for comfort? I don't find that to be true at all! Of course he finds comfort within his family, but he seeks comfort from Aerith as well which is why I think he stayed in her church. Not only because he wanted her forgiveness and to connect with her, but because he misses her and wants to be near to her. Which is why I think he also keeps flowers on his desk and goes to the Forgotten City and also is seen going through the flowerfields in the credits.
As for ACC erasing events in AC: Yes it does change events but it mostly is just adding to what was vague in AC. If they removed Aerith's image from the end credits it is fine because those flowers are still made to represent Aerith. Those flowers are said to be the same as the ones seen in her church.

So Tifa is jealous of Aerith's relationship with Cloud while Aerith is jealous that Tifa can continue to have a relationship with Cloud since she herself cannot?

No... I think everyone is misunderstanding. Aerith was NOT jealous of Cloud and Tifa's relationship. She was jealous that Tifa is alive and living with Cloud. Aerith wants to be alive and living with Cloud too, but she can't be. Aerith is jealous of the fact she isn't alive and near Cloud. Tifa is actually jealous of the bond that Cloud and Aerith formed, even after Aerith's death. I hope that makes more sense?

Also on another note? I'm not sure why some of you need to point out "It's not about who Cloud is fucking" as if relationships have to be purely physical or that we're making it out that romance is the most important thing in the FFVII universe or in Cloud's heart. That's just putting words into people's mouths that don't exist and well I hate to say it but it's kind of annoying because I haven't said any of those things not once.

sorry but how is this a smile? Lol. He looks perplexed if anything. The other one I will give you though it's a clear smile.

she seems to put personal feelings before logic and reason

I find this sort of offensive for multiple reasons. I guesss to start off because you don't know me and you have no right to make such a bold statement to say that my personal feelings are not logical or reasonable. /: It's true that Clerith is my favorite ship because it's a very emotional one to me and I'm not afraid to put how I feel about it out there. But I will never tell someone they are wrong for how they feel as well. yes I offer up my opposing view but just because you disagree does not mean it is not based around logic and reason. Okay? illogical and irrational to me is the type of stuff you were posting yourself earlier.

I want to say that Cloud and Aerith's hand reach scenes are more focused on that any other two characters in FFVII. While Cloud and Tifa do reach out to one another and Cloud is held up by all of his friends, it clearly focuses on Aerith in the end and their hands finally meeting as they were supposed to do at the end of FFVII.

Or maybe she just wanted to hear him say it Don't women love to hear that they're loved, even when they know that they are? Idk just a thought

Lol if I were in a relationship and I wanted to be told I was loved I would just say "I love you." If there's no reason for doubt than my significant other would simply respond with: "I love you too". And if she wanted to hear simply that, why did she change it to "Do you love Marlene?" It's like she wanted to hide the fact that she asked. What is she afraid of?

Sora and Riku actually have a second, real hand reaching scene during the first game (on Destiny Island during the storm, Riku reaches his hand out to Sora before disappearing into darkness).

What would happen if I told you all I believe Sora and Riku is canon? I don't even like Kairi lol. I would consider their hand reach scenes romantic no lies here!

 

[Kermitu Kleric Katie]

The reason I say that is because you often say things like "I think" or "I feel". I can see how you might take offense to it, but I didn't mean for it to be.

EDIT: Also, I never said you weren't logical or reasonable. In fact you're much moar logical and reasonable than a lot of other cleriths I've encountered. I just said that you tend to put personal thoughts and feelings before logic and reason. It's a very common flaw among humans and probably everyone has done it at some point. I've probably done it before even, I'll admit. No need to take offense.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I think that yes she is speaking about those other things, but one of the things in Cloud's past is also Aerith. She has complicated feelings about Cloud and Aerith's relationship even though Aerith has passed on. While all of these other things are included, Aerith is included in this line as well as he is still wanting to meet her and be near to her even though she's a spirit now. At least that's my interpretation of things.

Then you have an extremely low -- to the point of character assassination, I'd say -- opinion of Tifa. Do you really think she was as concerned at that moment with Cloud's romantic feelings as she was for the safety of the kids who had been taken by people more powerful than even her?

Moving onto the quote you posted about Tifa? That is what I mean. Tifa is strong with the way she acts. Which is why I say she is less gentle than Aerith would be about the way she phrases things. For instance Tifa says: You think you've got it so damn hard! While when we see Aerith she teases Cloud saying things like "Isn't it time you did the forgiving?" and "By whom?" And the tone of her voice suggests that she is being light hearted and playful. Gentle, but to the point. Tifa on the other hand is forceful. While she lets Cloud form his own conclusion she speaks to him in a very different way. That's all I'm saying.

Tifa kept mostly silent for the duration of Cloud's mopey shenanigans. Now she's letting out all the frustrations that have built up in that time, and she's entitled to it. Cloud deserves every word she lays on him and so much more. He's being an utter putz.

I also have to say that I really dislike this idea that gets pushed for -- based on this one scene, mind you -- that Tifa is bitchy while Aerith is a honey-tongued angel. Nevermind that Tifa used plenty of gentle words with Cloud in Case of Tifa when they discussed Cloud's secret deliveries, Aerith, Denzel and guilt.

Aerith is not any such thing. She has always been the assertive, forceful, honest one while Tifa is the shy, introverted and insecure one.

This is not an attack on Aerith. It's who she is. It's part of why she's a good character. She isn't perfect. She's flawed like everybody else in the cast. She's stubborn, a little bit selfish at times and seriously lacking in social tact. She says harsh and inappropriate things often enough.

She rips off the guys standing outside the Honey Bee Inn that she sells flowers to. She handles arrival at the Gold Saucer in an entirely insensitive manner to Barret's feelings. She's brusque with Tseng -- another person she cares about -- even as he's bleeding out, then cries for him.

That's just how she is.

If Aerith was pissed at Cloud being a mopey dick, she'd be the first to say something about it. She wouldn't hold it in for forever and a day like Tifa.

Neither approach is necessarily better than the other, but Aerith would have gotten harsh with him and a lot sooner than Tifa.

You really can't use her taking a gentle tone with him for a few lines in Advent Children as completely overwriting the stubborn, assertive character we got to know in FFVII. For that matter, she does quote Tifa's "zuruzuru zuruzuru" criticism to tell him to stop dragging the past around with him, but being a tad nicer than Tifa on this occasion doesn't suddenly reverse their personalities.

She's the one he feels most guilty over and is the one he's seeking forgiveness from. It wouldn't really make sense for her to go "cry moar, Nancy lol" in that situation.

Not from me you are not lol. It's not up to me to say? I feel like the quote is a general statement. That she is like all of those things rather than that she is definitely all of these things to someone.

One can not be "like" an ally in battle. How does that make the slightest sense to you? She literally is that.

And, again, the Japanese construction of the sentence could not be any clearer. This has been explained to you. Nomura says that she is like a mother, and is also a koibito and an ally in battle. "You no" is "like"; he applies this only to being a mother, with each clause about what she is or is like having its own close of "demo ari" or "demo aru" (think of them as semi-colons and a period).

Also again, being a koibito requires that someone desire you. That's what the word means ("desired person").

You know these things to be fact. Why are you pretending otherwise?

And I also said earlier I would refuse to comment on anything relating to the word koibito

Well, I won't be letting you off the book. It's there. Address it or concede that you have no debunking.

When you say Cloud isn't looking to Aerith for comfort? I don't find that to be true at all! Of course he finds comfort within his family, but he seeks comfort from Aerith as well which is why I think he stayed in her church. Not only because he wanted her forgiveness and to connect with her, but because he misses her and wants to be near to her. Which is why I think he also keeps flowers on his desk and goes to the Forgotten City and also is seen going through the flowerfields in the credits.

Fair enough.

So long as we're on the same page that Cloud isn't running from the miserable world of living with Tifa and the kids to the only safe haven he has in all the world, as the matter is so often misrepresented.

As for ACC erasing events in AC: Yes it does change events but it mostly is just adding to what was vague in AC. If they removed Aerith's image from the end credits it is fine because those flowers are still made to represent Aerith. Those flowers are said to be the same as the ones seen in her church.

Sure, I don't disagree that they included the imagery of the flowers as a reminder that Aerith is always with him.

As long as we don't venture into "meeting in the flower fields for spirit sex" territory, it's all good with me on this end.

No... I think everyone is misunderstanding. Aerith was NOT jealous of Cloud and Tifa's relationship. She was jealous that Tifa is alive and living with Cloud. Aerith wants to be alive and living with Cloud too, but she can't be. Aerith is jealous of the fact she isn't alive and near Cloud. Tifa is actually jealous of the bond that Cloud and Aerith formed, even after Aerith's death. I hope that makes more sense?

That's a better way of wording it, yes, but -- as you noted yourself here -- Aerith can no longer have that sort of relationship with Cloud. Tifa has no reason to be jealous of a relationship between them like you said earlier.

A bond, fine, sure. They had a different bond. One where Aerith could freely say what was on her mind and all be well. But there's no longer an active relationship there. It's not like she has to worry that Cloud is stepping out in the middle of the night for a tryst with a ghost.

Lol if I were in a relationship and I wanted to be told I was loved I would just say "I love you." If there's no reason for doubt than my significant other would simply respond with: "I love you too".

The problem here is that you're conflating having doubt with there being a reason to have doubt. As someone who was faithful in a five-and-a-half-year relationship with a woman who never trusted me (and it was because of issues with herself thinking no one could love her), let me just say that your assessment doesn't reflect the reality of human nature. If you knew half of what I did for that woman's benefit, you'd probably double-take that she could even ask me that question, yet I was still asked that question plenty of times.

Usually after being cussed out and accused of cavorting with other women.

People get insecure. Some people always are insecure and have doubt, no matter what. That's the kind of person Tifa is.

 

[Ryushikaze]

I think that yes she is speaking about those other things, but one of the things in Cloud's past is also Aerith. She has complicated feelings about Cloud and Aerith's relationship even though Aerith has passed on. While all of these other things are included, Aerith is included in this line as well as he is still wanting to meet her and be near to her even though she's a spirit now. At least that's my interpretation of things.

The problem is, that interpretation is entirely at odds with what Cloud himself and the creators have said. What Cloud wants from Aerith is forgiveness for his sins. He wants her to free him from his guilt, not to spend time with her.

Moving onto the quote you posted about Tifa? That is what I mean. Tifa is strong with the way she acts. Which is why I say she is less gentle than Aerith would be about the way she phrases things. For instance Tifa says: You think you've got it so damn hard! While when we see Aerith she teases Cloud saying things like "Isn't it time you did the forgiving?" and "By whom?" And the tone of her voice suggests that she is being light hearted and playful. Gentle, but to the point. Tifa on the other hand is forceful. While she lets Cloud form his own conclusion she speaks to him in a very different way. That's all I'm saying.

Tifa tells Cloud directly because that's what he needed at that moment. Not because she's less gentle than Aerith. And while what Aerith said to Cloud was also what he needed to hear, one could also see it as being cruel, asking him who he wants forgiveness from when the answer is obvious.

Not from me you are not lol. It's not up to me to say? I feel like the quote is a general statement. That she is like all of those things rather than that she is definitely all of these things to someone. And I also said earlier I would refuse to comment on anything relating to the word koibito But I'm sure plenty of other Clerith fans will tell you otherwise lol.

Well, newsflash- you failed in not saying. One cannot be like an ally in battle, and being like a lover is equally mealy mouthed and b

When you say Cloud isn't looking to Aerith for comfort? I don't find that to be true at all! Of course he finds comfort within his family, but he seeks comfort from Aerith as well which is why I think he stayed in her church. Not only because he wanted her forgiveness and to connect with her, but because he misses her and wants to be near to her. Which is why I think he also keeps flowers on his desk and goes to the Forgotten City and also is seen going through the flowerfields in the credits.

Cloud is DRIVING HOME in the credits. He now has flowers on his desk in the post credits because yes, he does honor Zack and Aerith's memory through the flowers. You are inventing him 'missing her and wanting to be near her' out of whole cloth.
Let me ask you. Does Cloud at the start of ACC seem to have ANY comfort? At all? At Zack's grave? At the church? Answer honestly.

As for ACC erasing events in AC: Yes it does change events but it mostly is just adding to what was vague in AC. If they removed Aerith's image from the end credits it is fine because those flowers are still made to represent Aerith. Those flowers are said to be the same as the ones seen in her church.

And Cloud is still driving home to spend time with Tifa and the kids and to take Denzel to Zack's grave.

No... I think everyone is misunderstanding. Aerith was NOT jealous of Cloud and Tifa's relationship. She was jealous that Tifa is alive and living with Cloud.

Aerith is Jealous that Tifa gets to live together with Cloud. Not that Tifa is alive, that Tifa gets to be together with Cloud and she doesn't.

Aerith wants to be alive and living with Cloud too, but she can't be. Aerith is jealous of the fact she isn't alive and near Cloud. Tifa is actually jealous of the bond that Cloud and Aerith formed, even after Aerith's death. I hope that makes more sense?

No, because Tifa isn't JEALOUS after Aerith's death. She's WORRIED.

Also on another note? I'm not sure why some of you need to point out "It's not about who Cloud is fucking" as if relationships have to be purely physical or that we're making it out that romance is the most important thing in the FFVII universe or in Cloud's heart. That's just putting words into people's mouths that don't exist and well I hate to say it but it's kind of annoying because I haven't said any of those things not once.

Nor has anyone in at leas the last several pages, at least as far as I can determine, speaking of putting words in people's mouths.
And it's technically wrong, anyways. It IS about who Cloud is fucking. Partly, at least. We are dealing with a red blooded male and the two attractive women who both want him. To pretend that there would be no sexual action would be quite silly. Well, it might be silly in the pairing where he ends up with a discorporeal spirit, but my point is that Cloud is a man with a sex drive. Sex while not a primary concern, is a subset of the whole shebang.

sorry but how is this a smile? Lol. He looks perplexed if anything. The other one I will give you though it's a clear smile.

That is a bad capture of the smile, which does go by quickly, but which is clearly visible as Cloud and Tifa have their moment together during the rise.

I find this sort of offensive for multiple reasons. I guesss to start off because you don't know me and you have no right to make such a bold statement to say that my personal feelings are not logical or reasonable.

We have every right, actually. It might be rude, but we have the right to say it, especially if we believe it to be true.

/: It's true that Clerith is my favorite ship because it's a very emotional one to me and I'm not afraid to put how I feel about it out there. But I will never tell someone they are wrong for how they feel as well.

You are not wrong because of how you feel. You are wrong- or would be wrong, to make this hypothetical- because you allow how you feel and what you want to dictate what you view as truth, rather than determining truth through objective means.

yes I offer up my opposing view but just because you disagree does not mean it is not based around logic and reason. Okay? illogical and irrational to me is the type of stuff you were posting yourself earlier.

Could you elaborate on how the things said by the posters in this thread are illogical and irrational?
Also, I understand you're getting offended, but please consider that it is not that we consider such things irrational because we disagree, but that we disagree because we see them as irrational.

I want to say that Cloud and Aerith's hand reach scenes are more focused on that any other two characters in FFVII. While Cloud and Tifa do reach out to one another and Cloud is held up by all of his friends, it clearly focuses on Aerith in the end and their hands finally meeting as they were supposed to do at the end of FFVII.

It got a focus because she's dead and the final push. It's an Uncle Ben Moment. When the dead affect the living, you have to give it focus.

Lol if I were in a relationship and I wanted to be told I was loved I would just say "I love you." If there's no reason for doubt than my significant other would simply respond with: "I love you too". And if she wanted to hear simply that, why did she change it to "Do you love Marlene?" It's like she wanted to hide the fact that she asked. What is she afraid of?

Being laughed at. Getting 'An I don't know.' Possible even 'yes.'
It doesn't have to be entirely rational, fear. Most aren't.

What would happen if I told you all I believe Sora and Riku is canon? I don't even like Kairi lol. I would consider their hand reach scenes romantic no lies here!

Well, I personally would tell you to go sit on the KH shipper bus because seriously, shut up with the yaoi already. It's fucking old.

But I would also ask, what of all the OTHER hand reach scenes, like those of Noel and Serah in 13-2? A lot of folks ship those two fucks, and she's engaged to another man.

 

[BlankBeat]

None of those five quote say jack diddly about him having romantic feelings for the girl pre-death, much less persisting for two years after. Her being important, yes, but Zack is also important to Zack.

This is what you said originally, "I think you need to damn well get back to the brass tacks and find concrete evidence that Cloud had more than a passing fancy for the Flower girl whose affections towards him he was oblivious of for the whole two weeks they knew each other."

To me, this was an attempt to diminish the relationship Cloud and Aerith developed together. I provided you with 5 specific quotes outlining Cloud's immense guilt, pain, and sorrow he felt after Aerith died. I did this not to show you that Cloud had romantic feelings for Aerith, but to show you that Cloud developed a strong relationship with Aerith despite their relationship only lasting "two weeks" and despite Cloud adopting Zack's persona. Again, despite these two things, Cloud developed a strong relationship with Aerith that caused him immense sadness and guilt after her death.

Even if you don't believe Cloud and Aerith share mutual romantic feelings, at the very minimum they developed a very strong friendship, which is why Cloud feels such pain, sadness, and guilt over her death.

Here are the quotes that show us that Cloud and Aerith developed a strong relationship despite Cloud not being his "true self" and despite their relationship only lasting two weeks (and remember, this is not to show you that Cloud and Aerith are romantically involved, it is to show you how much Cloud cares for Aerith and how strong of a bond they developed):

"She was surprised at the great sorrow he had for her. She was a little happy that he thought so much of her but she also felt the pain that was many times greater." ~The Maiden who Travels the Planet

"Cloud searched for the right words. 'I didn't fix the problem. I don't think I'll ever fix the problem. I can't make somebody unlose their life.'" ~CoT

"The incredible guilt Cloud feels because of what happened to Aerith can only be lifted by forgiveness from Aerith herself." ~Nojima, Reunion Files

"For Cloud, no one other than Aerith can solve that problem for him. I tried to create an atmosphere in which she still seems to be by his side - in spirit at least." ~Nojima, Reunion Files

"The Forgotten City is tied to Aerith throughout the film. Here, Cloud is constantly reminded of her no matter how painful it is for him." ~Nojima: p.9, Reunion Files

Or the Canon confession under the highwind between Cloud and Tifa.

Expressing mutual feelings of romance =/= romantic relationship. Until you show me Cloud and Tifa kissing, Cloud and Tifa sharing the same bed, Cloud telling Tifa he loves her, etc. there is no proof that a romantic relationship developed after the HAHW scene. If Nomura doesn't know the status of their relationship after the HAHW scene takes place, you shouldn't pretend you know the status of their relationship, either.

Also, even if a romantic relationship began between Cloud and Tifa, it was completely gone by AC:
-This is supported by Nojima's premise that thing's "aren't going well" between them.
-This is supported by Nojima not knowing if even Denzel and Marlene will be enough to help them sort through their problems.
-This is supported by Tifa not knowing if Cloud loves her.
-This is supported by the "maternal bond" Tifa feels toward Cloud that drives him away and causes him to stop speaking to her.

Or Cloud deciding to start a new life with Tifa by his side. Or their forming a family.

Don't forget that Denzel was brought to Cloud by Aerith. Don't forget that Barret is apart of this family and is Marlene's Father. Instead of creating this ridiculous idea that Marlene belongs to two families, I believe that Marlene belongs to one family that encompasses Cloud, Tifa, Barret and Denzel.

It is worth nothing that Barret helped re-build Seventh Heaven (which should make him a permanent family member of Seventh Heaven). Plus, Barret was apart of the original AVALANCHE family that lived at Seventh Heaven, which Tifa was also apart of. Because both Barret and Tifa were apart of the original AVALANCHE family that lived at Seventh Heaven, they will always be apart of the family that resides there. These two reasons (Barret rebuilding Seventh Heaven and Barret/Tifa being apart of the original family that lived at Seventh Heaven), in addition to the fact that his daughter lives at Seventh Heaven, means that Barret will always be apart of the family that resides at Seventh Heaven.

Also -- Marlene sleeps with Barret the night before he goes off on his missions. Barret leaving for these missions is what make Cloud, Tifa, Marlene, and Denzel a "family of 4". But when Barret returns to protect his "family," they become a family of 5.

Maybe the reason a bed is found in Cloud's personal room is because Marlene is stated to have always slept with Tifa during CoT?

And when Marlene moves out of Tifa's room, Tifa simply sleeps in her bed alone and Cloud continues sleeping in the bed that is found in his room. There is no other reason for SE to include a bed in Cloud's room except for the simple fact that he sleeps in it. Until we see Cloud and TIfa sleeping together, it is only logical to assume Cloud sleeps in the bed that is found in his room. Period.

Furthermore, if this is Cloud and Tifa's family, why does Barret's daughter Marlene have to invite Cloud in it? Shouldn't it be the other way around?

Plus, if Marlene already has a family to invite Cloud in to, what family is that? Obviously one that includes Barret.

Until Cloud and Tifa have biological children, and until they get married, it is simply delusional to think they are a "family" in the way a normal family operates. This is exactly why Tifa doesn't believe they are a "real" family.

What demonstrates Cloud's deep romantic yearning for the dead woman that- by his own words- he just wants forgiveness from.

But why does Cloud want forgiveness? The answer: because him and Aerith developed a strong relationship. This relationship can either be romantic or platonic depending on your interpretation. But the bottom line is: Cloud wants forgiveness because he had/has feelings for Aerith.

All the handreaches are special, because they show the entire party is standing by Cloud's side metaphorically, if not literally. Aerith's is an homage, yes, but that doesn't mean she's being singled out as meaning more to Cloud than the rest. Granted, she is being singled out, but again, SHE'S DEAD. Getting aid from the spirit of those long passed is pretty fucking special, whether it's Anna or the King of Baron giving the Aid.

Likewise, Zack gets singled out during Cloud's 'what do you cherish?' flash, and a special scene. That doesn't make him more important than anything else. It makes his aid more special, but that doesn't mean Cloud cares about him more than he does the kids, Tifa, or Aerith.

Given the context of Cloud and Aerith's relationship (Cloud is Aerith's koibito), I choose to view the hand reach scene romantically (especially because SE decided to pay homage to it). By paying homage to this scene, it tells us that this is a special piece of imagery between Cloud and Aerith. Period.

A date she literally has to force him on and which he is not interested in when he has it.

SE included this piece of dialogue while everyone was in their jail cells at Shinra Headquarters:

Aeris: "I knew that Cloud would come for me."
Cloud: "Hey, I'm your bodyguard, right?"
Aeris: "The deal was for one date, right?"

Why else would SE choose to include this dialogue if not to provide some foreshadowing for their date? To me, this scene suggests that Cloud is happy to be Aerith's bodyguard and is completely content with the arrangement they made.

Also -- it is stated that Cloud and Aerith's date *ends magically*

Which gives us 'passing interest.'

I disagree. It shows that Cloud hopes Aerith likes him because he likes her back. It shows they have mutual romantic feelings for one another.

Also, the fact that Cloud tells Marlene he hopes Aerith likes him is a manifestation of him "wavering" between two heroines.

In which case, why in the name of fuck are you protesting C/T? They have several intimate conversations, a lot more intimate than the Cosmo Canyon one. Tifa literally gets to walk around inside Cloud's mind. He opened it up only for her. Can't get much more intimate than that.

I'm simply using the scene that takes place at Cosmo Canyon to show that Cloud began developing strong feelings for Aerith. Given that Cloud is wavering between two heroines and is Aerith's koibito, I view this scene as very romantic.

For the fucking love of all that would be holy if there was such a thing as gods, GIVE THIS ONE UP.

Cait Sith is described, also by SE, as an unreliable prognosticator whose predictions are completely unreliable.

The fact that Squaresoft included Cait Sith's wedding prediction in FFVII helps give us insight into how they view Cloud and Aerith's relationship.

The argument about Cait Sith's prediction should not revolve around how reliable he is. The argument should be about what was SE's intent for including this wedding prediction in the game.

SE could have had Aerith ask Cait Sith about her future and Cait Sith could have said, "You will have a bright future full of many happy times!" -- this would have set the player up to get their heart broken when she was killed by Sephiroth. Instead, they specifically decided to include a prediction about Aerith's romantic future with Cloud.

It was a romantic prediction about her future with Cloud, not just a generic prediction about her future.

So given the context of the game and how things were progressing between Cloud and Aerith, it is obvious why SE included this wedding prediction -- so the gamer would have the idea in their head that Cloud and Aerith had the possibility of sharing a romantic future together, which would then be destroyed by the hands of the evil Sephiroth. A generic prediction about Aerith's future would not have been nearly as meaningful or impactful to the gamer, which is why they specifically made the prediction about Aerith's romantic future with Cloud.

Cloud wavers... and then decides on Tifa.

That is your interpretation. Not mine.

Tifa is jealous... and then later Aerith is jealous. You keep wanting to use the former as evidence of romance, but keep making excuses about the latter. Please, be consistent about what the fuck jealousy is supposed to be narrative shorthand for, because the intellectual dishonest is fucking old.

Aerith isn't jealous of C/T's relationship, she is jealous that Tifa is able to live with Cloud and look after him. Tifa, on the other hand, is jealous of Cloud and Aerith's actual relationship.

Tifa's jealously is much different than Aerith's jealously. Here is a passage from the 10th Anniversary Ultimania outlining Tifa's repeated jealously of her "love rival" (ie: Aerith):

"The thing which she is unable to hide in her irritation towards Cloud is the fact that he isn't merely dragging the past around, but because that reason might perhaps be related to Aerith.

FFVII: Seeing Cloud and Aerith developing their world together before her eyes, she inadvertently lets slip her peevish feelings.

AC: Upon knowing that Cloud had been residing in Aerith's church after leaving the place they had been living in together, her expression becomes complex."
 ~Tifa's character profile, 10th Anniversary Ultimania

One of the lines specifically says that Tifa let her "peevish feelings" slip when she saw Cloud and Aerith developing their "own world" together. Why would Tifa be jealous if Aerith was only developing a world of friendship with Cloud?

It is clear that Tifa is jealous of the world her "love rival" is forming with Cloud because the world he is forming with Tifa's "love rival" is romantic, which is exactly why Aerith is considered Tifa's "love rival" in the first place. Tifa continues to be jealous of Cloud and Aerith's "world" during Advent Children, probably because she's not sure if Cloud loves her.

They both want the same man. They'd be rivals even if Cloud was only interested in metrosexual robots.
And even IF them being love rivals means Cloud is interested- which, to stress, it does not- then it ALSO means Cloud is interested in Tifa

But Cloud is stated to "waver" between these two love rivals, which means he is romantically interested in both of his "love rivals". Your point is sunk.

The flower field ending in Dissidia kinda takes a back seat to the actual PLOT of Duodecim and how it flat slams us in the face with how important Tifa is to Cloud, even when he can't remember her.
FF9 is basically poking fun at FF7, and is about as meaningful to FF7 as Gaia's red moon is to FF4. IE- Not at all.
In FF Tactics, Cloud does not recognize Aerith, does not give a shit about her, and is just looking for a way home back to Gaia and Tifa, the 'someone who is waiting for you'
Kingdom hearts' ending isn't about romance. What it might tell us is that Cloud and Aerith are friends. Cloud was searching for Sephiroth. Tifa is Cloud's light.

Here is why I believe the cameo appearances suggests SE views Cloud and Aerith as a romantic couple (and let's not forget that SE just recently made Cloud the "Emperor" and Aerith the "Empress" )

Nomura: "With Aerith, 'flowers' have been her image throughout the series."

Nomura, Reunion Files: “…we filmed the video for the ending credits in Hawaii. There are fields of flowers on both sides of the road, and the colors - yellow and white - are the same as the flowers in Aerith’s church.”

The flowers shown during the ending of Dissidia are the same color as those found in Aerith's Church. They are also the same color as those that appear in the flower field during Advent Children. They are also the same color as those found on Cloud's desk, and the same color as those Cloud rides his motorcycle through during the credits of Advent Children. The resemblance is hardly a coincidence. But with imagery, I suppose you can't unequivocally prove something 100%. So here's the photos -- you can judge for yourself:

Yellow flowers on Cloud's desk:

Credits during Advent Children:

(Aerith is standing in a yellow flower field. Cloud is shown driving his motorcycle around areas that are filled with yellow flower fields. Aerith's image is superimposed over Cloud multiple times)

Cloud walking through Aerith's Church -- as you can see, yellow/white flowers are growing there:

Flower Field in Advent Children:

Ending of Dissida:

Cloud is standing in a flower field with yellow and white flowers at the end of Dissidia.
Hmmm...

I really think the implications are obvious. When you look at the pictures, combined with the quotes saying flowers represent Aerith (especially yellow and white flowers) it almost becomes painfully obvious.

Furthermore, during Dissidia, it is suggested that the crystals will guide each character to where they need to be. Zidane says, "We're not vanishing. We're returning to where we're supposed to be."

Cloud is seen returning to a flower field at the end of the game, which is the place he is "supposed" to be. This flower field is almost identical to the flower fields and flowers that have represented Aerith throughout the compilation. It is also almost identical to the flower field that both Aerith and Cloud appear in during Advent Children.

In addition, Squall of Final Fantasy VIII is seen leaving when a white feather falls from the sky. This feather represents Rinoa. The parallels between Cloud x Aerith and Squall x Rinoa are obvious.

During the game Cloud also says, “The one I really want to meet is…” And although Cloud doesn’t finish his sentence, given the ending of Dissidia and the ending of Final Fantasy VII, it is clear who Cloud has a desire to meet.
Dissidia: “The one I really want to meet is…”
Final Fantasy VII: "The Promised Land... I think I can meet her... There..."

It appears as though Cloud could not finish his sentence because it was too painful for him.

Let's recap:
-In Dissidia, Cloud states he has a desire to meet someone
-At the end of FFVII Cloud expressed a desire to meet Aerith in the Promised Land.
-At the end of Dissidia, we see Cloud returning to where he "belongs" -- which is a flower field.

It seems that the person Cloud has a desire to meet in Dissidia is Aerith because he is shown returning to the same flower field that we see them connecting through in Advent Children. This is the place Cloud "belongs".

Terra also asks Cloud: "And you, Cloud... What's your dream?"
Cloud: "I've lost mine."

This could be interpreted as Cloud referring to losing Aerith.

But regardless of that, it is clear that Cloud has a desire to meet Aerith in the Promised Land, and the ending of Dissidia suggests he finally meets her in a flower field (ie: The Promised Land). This is also stated as the place where Cloud is "supposed to be".

You are free interpret the ending of Dissidia as a platonic connection between Cloud and Aerith. Imagery is always ambiguous. But what is not ambiguous is that flowers represent Aerith (official quotes and common sense prove this), and flower fields represent a spiritual connection between Cloud and Aerith. Cloud is seen returning to where he belongs, which is a flower field of yellow and white flowers. He is also holding a materia -- one that is the same color and kind as Aerith's. Although I can't prove without-a-doubt that the ending of Dissidia is romantic -- it is, at the very least, showing some sort of connection between Cloud and Aerith.

Here is why I personally believe it is romantic: nothing happens in a vacuum. When you consider the other cameo appearances of Cloud and Aerith (especially FFIX), the established love triangle of a hero wavering between two love interests, and the romantic moments shared between Cloud and Aerith during FFVII (especially the two canon dates and Cloud hoping Aerith likes him, etc.) I do not think it is a leap to view the ending of Dissidia with a romantic lense. This is further confirmed by official quotes from SE such as the koibito quote. It is also worth noting that SE pays homage to Squall x Rinoa, an official canon couple, during the ending of Dissidia.

I also think it is obvious what SE was trying to do with the Cloud x Aerith homage in Final Fantasy Tactics and Final Fantasy IX. Although I can't prove without a doubt that SE's intent was romantic in nature, common sense surely suggests it.

In FFIX the Flower Girl calls Knight 7 "cute" and he calls the Flower Girl "beautiful". Their entire conversation is very flirtatious and romantic. Why would SE include this in FFIX if there was no evidence in FFVII that supported the idea that Cloud and Aerith were romantically involved?

Also -- FFIX was created before Crisis Core. Knight 7 is supposed to be Cloud Strife, especially because he is standing next to a "Flower Girl". The scenario in FFIX is similar and reminiscent of what happens in both FFVII and FFT. It is simply illogical to assume that Knight 7 is Zack when Cloud is the protagonist of FF7.

Then, in Final Fantasy Tactics, you see Cloud meeting a Flower Girl. He essentially has the same conversation with her as Cloud had with Aerith during the beginning of FFVII. In fact, Aerith is called "Flower Girl" in both FFVII and FFT. There is some obvious romantic undertones going on here, especially when you consider Cloud is Aerith's "koibito". Cloud is also the only character in FFT able to equip a ribbon that is similar to Aeith's.

I just think when you look at the cameos, it is not hard to see that SE is paying homage to Cloud and Aerith as a romantic couple. And the only reason they would do this is if there was evidence to support them as a romantic couple to begin with (ie: evidence from the original game, Final Fantasy VII).

Furthermore, please read these similar quotes between FFT and FFVII:

Final Fantasy Tactics:
Cloud: "My fingers are tingling... My eyes...they're burning."
Final Fantasy VII:
Cloud: "My fingers are tingling. My mouth is dry. My eyes are burning!"

Final Fantasy Tactics:
Cloud: "I lost...a very important thing..."
Final Fantasy VII:
Cloud lost Aerith in Final Fantasy VII.

Final Fantasy Tactics:
Cloud: "Ever since, I've been lost. Who am I? What should I do?
What about this pain..."
Final Fantasy VII:
Cloud: What about US... what are WE supposed to do?"
Cloud "What about my pain?"

Final Fantasy Tactics:
Cloud "Must go...to the Promised Land."
Final Fantasy VII:
Cloud "The Promised Land...I think I can meet her... there."

There's some very obvious parallels going on here that have obvious romantic undertones.

No, Cloud was Woman's Koibito, and again, this only tells us what the woman thinks, not Cloud. Lifestream white is from her perspective.

Why do you believe the koibito quote means mutual romance in Tifa's case but not Aerith's?

To me, the koibito quote for both pairings means both are canon.

We know what Cloud's undying feeling is. IT'S GUILT FOR BEING COMPLICIT IN HER MURDER.

But why does he care that she died? Because he developed an emotional connection with her. At the very minimum Cloud had feelings of friendship for Aerith, and at the very most Cloud had romantic feelings for Aerith. But he had some type of feelings nonetheless.

My point is that Cloud shared an emotional connection with both Aerith and Zack. His guilt is not just over the fact he believes he let two random people die, his guilt is over the fact that two people he knew, on an intimate level, died.

Let's face it -- Cloud has killed a lot of people in his life. But he only feels extreme guilt and blame for allowing those who he cared about die. Why did he care about Aerith? Well, in my opinion, it was because of the romantic feelings he had for her. Why did he care about Zack? Well, in my opinion, it was because of the friendship and camaraderie they shared.

Cloud's guilt and blame are linked to the feelings he had for both Zack and Aerith. It is up to us to decide what type of feelings those are.

Also -- it is Aerith's forgiveness (not Zack's) that Cloud seeks most of all.

What transpired during AC was a story of a man brought low by self doubt and disease and fear of losing his family finding confidence, health, and security through some divine intervention and killing the shadow of his greatest fears, so he could return to said family.

Period.

To me, the whole point of AC/C in terms of the LTD is that Cloud finds Aerith again. That's why he says, "I know.... I'm not alone.... not anymore" at the end of AC/C. He's not alone anymore because he's finally found Aerith.

Nomura said that Cloud sees Aerith because her consciousness lives inside of him. That means that Cloud's spirit and Aerith's spirit are united as one. She is with him all the time. It's also possible because we know that Cloud has a ton of Mako energy (Lifestream) injected into him by Hojo. Having all that Lifestream inside of Cloud makes it possible for Aerith's spirit to "live" there.

Cloud didn't realize this before the movie because of his guilt. But once he overcame his guilt, he's able to sense Aerith's presence. He's not alone anymore because he's found her again. We know this because SE said that Cloud's Promised Land is Aerith's Church. Cloud said at the end of FFVII that he could find Aerith in the Promised Land. Well, he found his Promised Land, and that's where Aerith is. So, he's finally found her.

This is also why Cloud is shown searching for ways to connect with her through the flower fields during the end of AC/C. To me, the flower field ending during AC/C suggests that Cloud is searching for more powerful ways to connect with Aerith, somewhat similar to what Yuna did for Tidus in FFX-2.

Love is a powerful thing and continues far beyond death, especially in Final Fantasy.

------------------------------

Your ignoring the fact that many couples ask this all the time. This is not an abnormal question. And since you said it's your opinion, you might as well accept the fact that people in relationships here in this debate say it's pretty normal and nothing really alarming.

I never said it was an "abnormal" question. I agree with you that couples sometimes ask this question during the course of a relationship.

But why do people ask this question? Because relationships change. And sometimes relationships change in a way that one person falls out of love with the other.

Tifa is asking the question not just because she is insecure by nature, but because Cloud and Tifa's relationship had changed. Their relationship had changed to the point where Tifa wasn't sure if Cloud loved her or not.

How do we know Cloud and Tifa's relationship changed?
-Nojima's premise that thing's "aren't going well" between them.
-Nojima not knowing if even Denzel and Marlene will be enough to help them sort through their problems.
-Tifa not knowing if Cloud loves her.
-The "maternal bond" Tifa feels toward Cloud that drives him away and causes him to stop speaking to her.

Because relationships change, people begin to wonder if their partner still feels the same way towards them. Maybe Tifa was wondering if the mutual feelings Cloud expressed to her during the HAHW scene had changed?

The fact is, we have evidence that their relationship was in trouble and that it had changed. Tifa should know more than anyone if Cloud loves her or not. If she doesn't know, no one should pretend they know, either.

Why do you ignore that Tifa is someone's koibito according to SE?

Why do you ignore that Cloud is refereed to as Aerith's "koibito"? If the word "koibito" tells us that mutual attraction exists, aren't both couples canon?

Tifa is said to be someone's koibito after Nomura said he doesn't know/care. New>old.

I don't deny that SE has provided evidence that supports Cloud x Tifa. What I take issue with is that Cloti's claim Cloud x Tifa is canon, even though SE has called Cloud Aerith's koibito.

As for your questions about my opinion regarding the HAHW scene, well:
In my honest opinion, the HAHW scene is most likely canon (although the evidence behind it is not as strong as many of you think). But my biggest point during this debate has been that even if the HAHW scene occurred, it did not necessarily lead to a romantic relationship between Cloud and Tifa.

Expressing mutual romantic feelings does not necessarily mean a romantic relationship comes after it, especially when we consider that Nomura doesn't know the status of their relationship, the fact that Tifa doesn't know if Cloud loves her, and the premise from Nojima that things "aren't going well" between them.

No scene after the Highwind scene unequivocally moves Cloud and Tifa from friends to lovers. To me, this suggests that even if the HAHW scene happened, there is no proof that a romantic *relationship* developed from it. And even if one did develop for a brief period of time, it was completely gone by Advent Children when Tifa doesn't even know if Cloud loves her.

If Nomura doesn't know if Cloud and Tifa form a romantic relationship after the HAHW scene, how can we be sure that they are in a romantic relationship? If Tifa doesn't know if Cloud loves her after the HAHW scene, how can we be sure that Cloud loves her after the HAHW scene?

In addition, it is stated that Cloud and Aerith's promised date "ends magically". Common sense suggests that when a date ends "magically," something extremely *magical* happened. Just as we can make assumptions about what happens when a screen fades to black, we can also make assumptions about what happens when a date ends *magically*.

One could say that out of the two versions of the Highwind scene, the HA version is canon. One could also say that out of the four versions of the Golden Saucer date, the C/A date is canon. To me, the C/A Golden Saucer date is equal to the HAHW scene in terms of showing mutual romantic feelings.

Granted, SE specifically says that Cloud and Tifa express mutual feelings during the Highwind scene. But a date is inherently romantic, there is no need to state the obvious. By Cloud agreeing to go on a romantic date with Aerith shows that he has mutual romantic feelings for her (especially when you consider that Cloud is refereed to as Aerith's "koibito").

To me, the HAHW scene and the C/A date are equal in terms of showing Cloud's romantic feelings for both women.

------------------------------

As for the translation debate, I still need some more time to construct my response. But for right now, here are my translations of the quotes in question:


1.

"The words “memetic legacy” are used a lot in the film…but in Advent Children, rather than focusing on memories we wanted to show that consciousness is what lives on. We took the ending of the game and expanded on that idea. Even if they’re dead, their consciousness is still with us. As for Cloud…he sees Aerith several times throughout the film. It’s not that he sees her because he feels her presence. He sees her because her consciousness…lives on inside him." ~Nomura; Distance Interview

You can see this quote for yourself if you watch the special features disc for Advent Children.

2.

The translation I use is from Saeki of the CxA forums:

Nomura: I believe, for those who formerly travelled with her as comrades and for the viewers, each carries their own feelings and loves for Aerith. In this story, Cloud also carries his own undying feeling for Aerith even to this very day... It's relations with this church scene is... Yup. I'll leave this part to your imagination. (Laughs). ~My Translation

Original Japanese one...
野村　
エアリスはかつてともに旅をした仲間で、受け手側の皆さんにも、それぞれの愛情や想いがあると思います。この物語のクラウドも、エアリスに対して、いまもなお死なぬ想いは あると・・・・。この教会の場面との関係は・・・・・うーん。このあたりは皆さんのご想像におまかせします(&#31505。]

想い = omoi = feeling
愛情 = aijou = love

Since a lot of the translation from TLS come from Cloti's, there is no shame (IMO) in getting my translation from someone of the CxA forums.

Saeki believes that Nomura is contrasting Cloud's feelings with the feelings of his comrades, which is a fair comparison to make considering Cloud and Aerith's relationship is different from that of her comrades.

The feelings Aerith's comrades have for her are platonic, while the feelings Cloud has for her are romantic (this is exactly why SE separated Cloud's feelings from her comrades feelings).

Cloud is Aerith's "koibito," therefore he has romantic feelings for her that are different than the platonic feelings her comrades have for her. Period.

3.
FlareGamer.com:
Tetsuya Nomura: What kind of question is that? I've never thought about it. Honestly, I don't care who loves whom. I think you could imagine the scenerios that we don't mention however you want to. You could enjoy talking about that with friends. For example, I was frequently asked if there had been romantic relationship between Tifa and Cloud for two years, after FF7 ended, but I don't have any clue.
Source: http://flaregamer.com/b2article.php?p=109&more=1

This translation says Nomura has "no clue" about the status of their relationship, not that he "doesn't care". Therefore, the HAHW scene does not unequivocally prove Cloud and Tifa entered a romantic relationship because the status of their relationship after FFVII is unknown by Nomura.

Here are the other two sources I use for my translation:
Source #1
Source #2

4.
Aerith Gainsborough - A girl with the blood of the Ancients running through her veins, who Cloud would never forget. ~DoC game manual, English version

Aerith Gainsborough - A girl with the blood of the Ancients flowing through her veins, who is engraved in Cloud's heart for the rest of his life. ~DoC game manual, direct translation from Japanese version

The official English translation says that Aerith is someone that Cloud would never forget. However, a direct translation from the Japanese version of the Dirge of Cerberes game manual says that Aerith is engraved in Cloud's heart for the rest of this life. But if you want me to stop using this quote, I will do so. However, if I were to use Japanese characters, my point would be the same.

The bottom line is: Aerith is someone Cloud will never forget. To me, the reason he will never forget Aerith is because he is her "koibito".

In addition, Aerith's forgiveness was stated to be the "wish of Cloud's heart". This tells me that Aerith weights heavy on Cloud's heart. All I'm doing is applying the terms "wish in his heart" to the context of Cloud and Aerith's romantic relationship as it has been established by SE. You are free to apply the same sort of quotes in the same way to Cloud and Tifa's relationship.

 

[Dashell]

Okay so... a romantic confession doesn't mean romantic relationship.. so uh... what do you think happened there? They were just like "OMG I LOVE YOU... but let's be friends!" or what here? Legit question, I want to hear how you think it turned out.

Saeki believes that Nomura is contrasting Cloud's feelings with the feelings of his comrades, which is a fair comparison to make considering Cloud and Aerith's relationship is different from that of her comrades.

She's wrong

 

[OneWingedDemon]

While she lets Cloud form his own conclusion she speaks to him in a very different way. That's all I'm saying.

Because unlike Aeris, Tifa is intimate with Cloud in a way Aeris only dreamt of. Tifa can demand these things of Cloud because she is his partner and mother of the kids they're raising. She is the only one comfortable enough to be that upfront with Cloud. So ja, Tifa does talk to Cloud in a very different way than the rest of AVALANCHE, Aeris included.

Watch the Turks in that scene -- awkwardly shuffling around like anyone would when watching a couple arguing. Seriously, it's hilariously obvious.

That having been said, She tells him not to run and fight. How is that forceful?
Considering he's moping about while the kids are in danger, she's being pretty fucking calm. A bitchslap is what he needed.

Even if you don't believe Cloud and Aerith share mutual romantic feelings, at the very minimum they developed a very strong friendship, which is why Cloud feels such pain, sadness, and guilt over her death.

So....? What a giant non sequitur. No one said they weren't friends -- they said he was oblivious to her desire to get in his pants. This isn't even one of those things up to interpretation, it's pretty much what SE said and since they are God according to you, you should take it and deal. Or are we back to picking and choosing which statements we believe?

A lot of folks ship those two fucks, and she's engaged to another man.

Anyone is better than Snow, Ryu. Anyone. Including the moogle.

EDIT:

Final Fantasy Tactics:
Cloud: "I lost...a very important thing..."
Final Fantasy VII:
Cloud lost Aerith in Final Fantasy VII.

And his motherfucking self (what with him asking who he is and what he should do)...but those things aren't important.

 

[Dashell]

You know... maybe it's just me but I think Tifa wasn't harsh ENOUGH on Cloud. Their fucking children have been kidnapped and he's like the ONLY ONE who can save them and he's moping around like a pussy.

Tifa went easy on him... I would have beat the shit out of him, I swear if my SO ever did that to me I don't even know what I'd do.


This is the only fandom where it's considered bad or nagging to tell a guy who once saved the world to go rescue his kidnapped children.

 

[OneWingedDemon]

Not the first time she's had to do that. He also refused to go after Aeris even though he knew she was facing Sephiroth and Sephiroth was gunning for her.

He was all like, YOU WANT ME TO FACE SEPHIROTH? NOPE!

 

[eleamaya]

Hah? The scene of daisy on Cloud's desk is still interpreted as Clerith?
Aerith's flower in the church are lilies. BB, are you blind that it's the same flower in Zack's grave? IT'S CLACK!!!!!!!

But, well, since flower represent Aerith and the flower is taken from Zack's grave, I just agree with Ryu. Cloud honored them together, it's beautiful, like the ending is he smiled to them together.

 

[OneWingedDemon]

All your flowers are belong to Aeris.

 

[Octo]

Why do you believe the koibito quote means mutual romance in Tifa's case but not Aerith's?

To me, the koibito quote for both pairings means both are canon.

Because we already KNOW that Tifa loves Cloud. If Tifa is someone elses beloved then we can assume they are talking about Cloud because there is nobody else who reasonably fits that description. Koibito doesn't have to mean mutuality if we have other information to go on.

Also I'm kind of astounded that from the date ending 'magically' with a fadeout we are meant to assume what...that they kissed? Yet, the risque dialogue of the HAHW followed by a fade out and the two characters waking up next to each other, touching, means nothing?

Look at the date dialogue:

Ticket Lady
Here you are, two tickets.
Enjoy the sights of Gold Saucer.
Cloud and Aeris get on the gondola.
Aeris
Wow, how nice.
Oh! Look, Cloud.
It's so pretty.
At length, she turns away from the window.
......it's beautiful, isn't it?
......first off, it bothered me how you looked exactly alike.
Two completely different people, but look exactly the same.
The way you walk, gesture...
I think I must have seen him again, in you...
But you're different.
Things are different.
Cloud...
I'm searching for you.
Cloud
............?
Aeris
I want to meet you.
Cloud
But I'm right here.
Aeris
(I know, I know...what I mean is...)
I want to meet...you.
The gondola returns to Round Square, and they get off.
Aeris
I had fun tonight. Let's go together again.
You don't like being with me?
Cloud
- Yeah
- That's not it

• Yeah
  Aeris
  Oh, don't tease like that!
  Oh, look at the time. We'd better get going.
• That's not it
  Aeris
  I'm glad.
  Next time let's take our time and go on more ride

Seriously, Cloud is clueless.

And if somebody could be bothered its probable that the different dates have the same amount of 'fadeout' anyway.

 

[Strangelove]

ends magically

someone find all the posts about that again

because it was another case of that's not what it said

 

[Ryushikaze]

Wasn't it talking about gold saucer itself in that quote? Like it's the magical place a la the magic kingdom?

And I'll be back and responding to the blargh in due time.

 

[Sikozu]

Spoiler: Some poasts about "magical night"

So, I ponied up $5 to get that "Sanctuary of Amusement" card from the FF Art Museum card collection (the official set printed by Square). For those who don't remember, it's the one with this quote that Clorith translated yeeeaaars ago:


It came in the mail today, and I've taken a pic as well as transcribed it:

http://i.imgur.com/NBPl8Hx.jpg

マッチョな園長ディオが運営する世界最大の遊戯場ゴールドソーサー。クラウドたちは戦いの合間に何度もこの地を訪れた。ケット・シーとの出会い。チョコボスクエアで繰り広げられた数々のデッドヒート。そしてマジカルナイトの夜に果たされたデートの約束…。砂上に浮かぶ欲望の城に、二人の淡い想い出は今も眠る…。

「あなたの中に彼を見ていた…　でも、ちがうの。今は、ちがう…。ね、クラウド。私、あなたを探してる」
（デートの最後、観覧車に乗った時のエアリスの言葉）

Given how things went the last time I was first to attempt translating something related to Cloud with 淡い (awai) in it, I'm hesitant to do so now. I think I'm going to let hito or JayM take a crack at it first.

I was all like "Imma go to bed, lemme just peek at TLS one more time" and...well, here is my very quick attempt - please pick apart at will!

The Gold Saucer, the world’s largest amusement park, run by its macho director, Dio. Cloud’s group visited this place many times between fights. The encounter with Cait Sith. Chocobo Square, where so many close races* unfolded. And the magical night** when the promise of a date was fulfilled… In the palace of desire that floats on the sand, the faint memories of two people are still held…***

“I was seeing him in you. …But, it’s different. It’s different now… Cloud? I want to meet you.”
(End of the date, Aeris’ words in the gondola)

*Aiming for "readable English" rather than "literal translation" - "dead heat" is the term the Japanese uses but I couldn't think of anything similarly intense that didn't sound weird.

**Is there any significance to the fact that "magical night" is written out in kana here? Is this the proper name of something in the game that I'm forgetting? Because I can't see why they did マジカルナイトの夜. I mean I guess as opposed to マジカルナイトの日?

***I am not awake enough to make this sound decent in English and I'm not 100% I've got the right idea here. I'm reading it as the 淡い想い出 is the thing still sleeping, so not the memories themselves but the outpouring of them (出), hence the memories are contained. Edit from phone: except that's OMOIDE and this is why i should not nihongo before sleep.

Edit: I have a feeling what's going to be a point of contention is the fact that Cloud and Aeris aren't specified to be the "two people," but the quote is specifically Aeris's date. I mean, ya'll know this already so I guess I'm just making this note for myself, but.

I won't bother trying to translate because I'm in my phone trying to fall asleep right now but I'm not sure I have much to add now.

淡い想い出 is interesting, I've not seen that before (that I recall now). I had a little look with Google at how people use it, and a lot of the results are nostalgic/romantic. Like memories of your adolescence, your first loves, unreciprocated love, the time when you were newly wed.

I guess the sense I've gotten so far is that they are nice, yet faint memories. They're not super vivid or strongly emotional, but they're still there somewhere.

Which, together with the 眠る here, seems a little strange. Because those are making it feel to me like it's talking about something that happened some time ago.

マジカルナイト is pretty awesome, I want to use that now. I'm half tempted to day perhaps that's the given name of the special night at the Gold Saucer? I think there was a special night when they had the date, anyway.

I would go find a セリフ集 to check but I'm not gonna.

If anyone's curious as to the card's wider LTD significance:

As I recall, the point of contention was over whether the card should be read as the promised date "results in a magical night" or "ends magically." The argument from at least one individual was that it "ends magically," thus indicating that Cloud and Aerith kissed during the fireworks or some such thing.

We can, of course, now see that the "results in" reading is what it should be taken as. The card is referring to the entire date, not the end of it.

I'd say that it's just the promise it was talking about, 果たされたデートの約束. The promise for a date was fulfilled. Edit; I mean what Jay said, I'm a dumbass.

And I found this from Googling but might look more later, but Magical Night seems to be the name of the event where the attractions are all free.

さあ、今夜はマジカルナイト！ すべてのアトラクションは無料になっているよ。

Yep, apparently so:

http://www.geocities.co.jp/Playtown/5186/novel/nov05_1.htm

There be a Japanese script. So, "the promised date is fulfilled the night of the Magical Night." It was "Enchantment Night" in the official English localization.

So, it was talking about this:

Spoiler

then?

 

[Roger]

Not the first time she's had to do that. He also refused to go after Aeris even though he knew she was facing Sephiroth and Sephiroth was gunning for her.

He was all like, YOU WANT ME TO FACE SEPHIROTH? NOPE!

I felt that was pretty justified considering he fell under Sephiroth's complete control the last time he, Sephiroth and Aerith were assembled. Honestly if i was cloud I'd be asking Tifa why none of them decided to go with Aerith.

 

[Kittie]

I felt that was pretty justified considering he fell under Sephiroth's complete control the last time he, Sephiroth and Aerith were assembled. Honestly if i was cloud I'd be asking Tifa why none of them decided to go with Aerith.

I remember feeling the exact same way when I played that part of the game. I couldn't believe no one went after Aerith when they knew she was gone. But didn't she leave without telling anyone? I can't remember now; it's been so long since I've played the game.

 

[Octo]

Yeah she left without telling anybody:

Spoiler: TLDR Script excerpt

Scene 86 - Aerith's Wood -

(The scene fades in... a calm green forest. Aerith pokes her head around one tree.)

Aerith "Cloud, can you hear me?"
(Cloud speaks, though he does not appear on screen.)

Cloud "Yeah, I hear you. Sorry for what happened."

(Aerith comes out from behind the tree; we see her profile as she faces to the side.) Aerith "Don't worry about it."

Cloud "...I can't help it..." (She goes back behind the tree.)

Aerith "Oh..." (She jumps out from behind another tree on the opposite side of the forest, not visibly walking the distance between them.)

Aerith "Then, why don't you REALLY worry about it?" (She runs forward and wipes one eye.)

Aerith "And let me handle Sephiroth." (She starts giggling, turns pure white, and disappears. She comes out from behind yet another tree.)

Aerith "And Cloud, you take care of yourself." (She walks back behind the tree, off-handedly leaning back so that we just see her head.)

Aerith "So you don't have a breakdown, okay?" (She goes behind the tree. She drops down from the sky, slowly, puppet-like, landing very softly on the ground. Cloud also floats down, closer to the camera. He looks around.)

Cloud "What is this place?" (Aerith puts her hands behind her back and looks skyward.)

Aerith "This forest leads to the City of the Ancients... and is called Sleeping Forest." (She looks at Cloud.)

Aerith "It's only a matter of time before Sephiroth uses Meteor." "That's why I'm going to protect it. Only a survivor of the Cetra, like me, can do it." (She turns and walks a distance into the forest. She turns back to face Cloud.)

Aerith "The secret is just up here." (She shakes her head.)

Aerith "At least it should be. ...I feel it. It feels like I'm being led by something." (She cocks her head to one side and waves, cutely, femininely, childishly, to Cloud.)

Aerith "Then, I'll be going now. I'll come back when it's all over."

Cloud "Aerith?" (She turns and runs off into the forest, getting smaller and smaller, until she disappears into the bright green sunlight. Cloud starts to run after her, slowly, but does not go anywhere, just as in a dream. Eventually he stops, and Sephiroth speaks, from somewhere.)

Sephiroth "Hmm........ She's thinking of interfering? She will be a difficult one, don't you think?" (Sephiroth floats down from above, just as Cloud did. He lands, kneeling, where Aerith stood moments before.)

Sephiroth "We must stop that girl soon." (She screen flashes white, then goes completely dark.)

Scene 87 -

Cloud's Self - (Cloud awakens in a bed at the inn at Gongaga village. Barret and Tifa are standing next to the bed.)

Barret "You look like you was havin' a nightmare." "How are you feeling?"

<CHOICE> I seem to be OK

Not good

Don't really know

***Cloud I seem to be OK

Barret "That's good. Man, I didn't know what was gonna happen." <//>

Tifa "You know, Cloud, Aerith is gone."

Barret "Everyone's out looking for Aerith." (Cloud sits up in bed and shakes his head.)

Cloud "......City of the Ancients. Aerith is headed there."

Barret "By herself!? Why did she go by herself!?" "Hey, we're goin' too."

 

[Kermitu Kleric Katie]

You people that are saying Tifa should've beaten Cloud up, I'm going to have to disagree, not only because it would be a very much OOC thing for Tifa to do, but also because it would probably qualify as domestic violence. I don't know about you guys, but I wouldn't want to be in a romantic relationship with someone who beats me up when I'm depressed. Hell, I wouldn't want to be in a romantic relationship with someone who beats me up at all. If that happened to me, I would file a domestic violence charge. Violence is almost never the answer.

 

[Ryushikaze]

This is what you said originally, "I think you need to damn well get back to the brass tacks and find concrete evidence that Cloud had more than a passing fancy for the Flower girl whose affections towards him he was oblivious of for the whole two weeks they knew each other."

To me, this was an attempt to diminish the relationship Cloud and Aerith developed together. I provided you with 5 specific quotes outlining Cloud's immense guilt, pain, and sorrow he felt after Aerith died. I did this not to show you that Cloud had romantic feelings for Aerith, but to show you that Cloud developed a strong relationship with Aerith despite their relationship only lasting "two weeks" and despite Cloud adopting Zack's persona. Again, despite these two things, Cloud developed a strong relationship with Aerith that caused him immense sadness and guilt after her death.

In which case, you provided me with five ENTIRELY IRRELEVANT quotes to prove something I was not demanding you prove. I am demanding you prove CLOUD HAD ROMANTIC FEELINGS BEYOND A PASSING FANCY.
Was that allcaps enough for you? Do I need to bold it? Unnecessarily put it into red or other colors so you'll notice it?

Even if you don't believe Cloud and Aerith share mutual romantic feelings, at the very minimum they developed a very strong friendship, which is why Cloud feels such pain, sadness, and guilt over her death.

No fucking duh. But you know what? Cloud feels pain, sadness, and guilt over Zack's death too. The difference is that Cloud's not complicit

Here are the quotes that show us that Cloud and Aerith developed a strong relationship despite Cloud not being his "true self" and despite their relationship only lasting two weeks (and remember, this is not to show you that Cloud and Aerith are romantically involved, it is to show you how much Cloud cares for Aerith and how strong of a bond they developed):

-Snip irrelevant quotes again-

You know, this would serve a point if ANYONE was denying that Cloud gave a shit about her or that they didn't have a bond. Also, a couple of those aren't just about Aerith, either. There's this person named Zack. He's important. Look him up.

Expressing mutual feelings of romance =/= romantic relationship. Until you show me Cloud and Tifa kissing, Cloud and Tifa sharing the same bed, Cloud telling Tifa he loves her, etc. there is no proof that a romantic relationship developed after the HAHW scene. If Nomura doesn't know the status of their relationship after the HAHW scene takes place, you shouldn't pretend you know the status of their relationship, either.

Blanky, you have no idea just how incredibly dishonest you are being. At least I kinda hope so. If you're being so brazenly intellectually dishonest on purpose, then there's probably no reaching you.
To sum up- you are demanding of the C/T case evidence you yourself do not apply to your own much more unusual and unlikely case. You do not demand evidence of Cloud and Aerith kissing, telling her he loves her, or anything like that, but you insist there is romantic feelings from him because 'Woman' thinks of Cloud as her beloved. That's not even mutual romantic feelings.
You're ALSO being dishonest because you are CONTINUING with this notion that Nomura does not know when he has said quite clearly several things which indicate he HAS to know. It is ENTIRELY possible for him to know nothing about their relationship at one point- because he doesn't care about that sort of thing, as he also said- and know about it later on once he's conferred with Nojima, who does care.

Also, even if a romantic relationship began between Cloud and Tifa, it was completely gone by AC:
-This is supported by Nojima's premise that thing's "aren't going well" between them.

-This is supported by Nojima not knowing if even Denzel and Marlene will be enough to help them sort through their problems.
-This is supported by Tifa not knowing if Cloud loves her.
-This is supported by the "maternal bond" Tifa feels toward Cloud that drives him away and causes him to stop speaking to her.[/quote]

Wow. Again with the bullshit. And yes, I'm calling a spade a spade. You seem determined to miss the greater context of Cloud's PTSD and survivor's guilt. That's the reason why things are not going well between them. That's the reason why the kids might be or might not be enough to help them. It's Cloud's issue that he needs to deal with. Tifa worrying about whether Cloud loves her or not is again a direct result of his PTSD causing him to withdraw into himself. And yet, later on, she is no longer worried about that, because he returns to being happy with her and the kids, and later still because he manages to work through his issues and return to them, now happy and if not guilt free, no longer weighed down by it.

The Biggest BS is 'Tifa's maternal bond.' Not only doesn't TIFA drive Cloud away, she does not, strictly speaking, she have a maternal bond with him. The original Japanese does not use that phrase of its equivalent. It just says she takes care of him sometimes.

Don't forget that Denzel was brought to Cloud by Aerith. Don't forget that Barret is apart of this family and is Marlene's Father. Instead of creating this ridiculous idea that Marlene belongs to two families, I believe that Marlene belongs to one family that encompasses Cloud, Tifa, Barret and Denzel.

No. Denzel was brought to Cloud and Tifa by Aerith. If he brought at all. Aerith was entirely powerless to affect the world before ACC.
Barret is APART, yes. Not A part. Apart. He has removed himself from the family by his own acts and thoughts. He is still Marlene's father, he is not part of Cloud's family.
It's right about here that all hope of you not being intentionally intellectually dishonest- and the straightforward kind- fly out the window, since this has been covered time and time again. We know who all is Cloud's family. It is him, Tifa, Marlene, and Denzel. Not Barret.

It is worth nothing that Barret helped re-build Seventh Heaven (which should make him a permanent family member of Seventh Heaven).

There is no coherent logic in this statement.

Plus, Barret was apart of the original AVALANCHE family that lived at Seventh Heaven, which Tifa was also apart of.

No, Barret and Tifa were both a part of AVALANCHE. Not apart of it.

Because both Barret and Tifa were apart of the original AVALANCHE family that lived at Seventh Heaven, they will always be apart of the family that resides there.

Uhm, again, no. That is NOT how that works.

These two reasons (Barret rebuilding Seventh Heaven and Barret/Tifa being apart of the original family that lived at Seventh Heaven), in addition to the fact that his daughter lives at Seventh Heaven, means that Barret will always be apart of the family that resides at Seventh Heaven.

Except he's NOT. Cloud doesn't include him. Denzel doesn't include him. SE doesn't include him. BARRET doesn't include himself!

Also -- Marlene sleeps with Barret the night before he goes off on his missions. Barret leaving for these missions is what make Cloud, Tifa, Marlene, and Denzel a "family of 4". But when Barret returns to protect his "family," they become a family of 5.

Cloud's thoughts upon waking up in the church says no, they do not.

Maybe the reason a bed is found in Cloud's personal room is because Marlene is stated to have always slept with Tifa during CoT?

No, Marlene is stated to have always slept with Tifa while they were building their house. Once the house was built, she got her own room.

And when Marlene moves out of Tifa's room, Tifa simply sleeps in her bed alone and Cloud continues sleeping in the bed that is found in his room. There is no other reason for SE to include a bed in Cloud's room except for the simple fact that he sleeps in it. Until we see Cloud and TIfa sleeping together, it is only logical to assume Cloud sleeps in the bed that is found in his room. Period.

Guest room.
Can I tell you the number of home offices my dad has had that doubled as guest/ my rooms when I was visiting? 4. That's the number of home offices he's had.

Furthermore, if this is Cloud and Tifa's family, why does Barret's daughter Marlene have to invite Cloud in it? Shouldn't it be the other way around?

You do know that she's four, right? She invited him in because SHE'S A CHILD. She's inviting him into her family because that's how she sees the world.
SE has clearly stated it's the family Cloud and Tifa formed in Edge.

Plus, if Marlene already has a family to invite Cloud in to, what family is that? Obviously one that includes Barret.

You are very clearly not familiar with the idea of different perspectives. Barret can be part of Marlene's family without being part of the 7th Heaven family.

Until Cloud and Tifa have biological children, and until they get married, it is simply delusional to think they are a "family" in the way a normal family operates. This is exactly why Tifa doesn't believe they are a "real" family.

Except they ARE a real family, and I find it really fucking offensive that you think it takes marriage and kids to make a 'real' family.

But why does Cloud want forgiveness? The answer: because him and Aerith developed a strong relationship. This relationship can either be romantic or platonic depending on your interpretation. But the bottom line is: Cloud wants forgiveness because he had/has feelings for Aerith.

He said, choosing the most mealy mouthed and equivocal statement he could. Cloud wants forgiveness because he has GUILT over Aerith's death. That they were friends makes it worse, but he wants FORGIVENESS for GUILT.

Given the context of Cloud and Aerith's relationship (Cloud is Aerith's koibito), I choose to view the hand reach scene romantically (especially because SE decided to pay homage to it). By paying homage to this scene, it tells us that this is a special piece of imagery between Cloud and Aerith. Period.

You keep repeating 'Cloud is Aerith's koibito' like it means anything. It doesn't It's known information. Aerith loves Cloud. That tells us nothing about what he feels for her.

SE included this piece of dialogue while everyone was in their jail cells at Shinra Headquarters:

Aeris: "I knew that Cloud would come for me."
Cloud: "Hey, I'm your bodyguard, right?"
Aeris: "The deal was for one date, right?"

Why else would SE choose to include this dialogue if not to provide some foreshadowing for their date? To me, this scene suggests that Cloud is happy to be Aerith's bodyguard and is completely content with the arrangement they made.

I think it suggest more that he's just being a braggadacio, like his fake persona is, since he doesn't seem at all thrilled to be PUSHED OUT of his room to actually go on 'the date.'

Also -- it is stated that Cloud and Aerith's date *ends magically*

No it is not. That's a terrible translation of the quote. What you think is 'ends magically' is talking about the 'Enchantment Night' the dates all happen on.

I disagree. It shows that Cloud hopes Aerith likes him because he likes her back. It shows they have mutual romantic feelings for one another.

Not... really. It shows he has an attraction to her, and would enjoy actually being liked by her, but it does not suggest he is ZOMFG IN LURVE with her.

Also, the fact that Cloud tells Marlene he hopes Aerith likes him is a manifestation of him "wavering" between two heroines.

Yes, and that's pretty much as far as it goes. "Yeah, I'd be pleased as punch if she liked me." Meanwhile the other woman gets to traipse about inside his head and the two of them share an intimate night together under the stars after she feeds him a Risque line.

I'm simply using the scene that takes place at Cosmo Canyon to show that Cloud began developing strong feelings for Aerith. Given that Cloud is wavering between two heroines and is Aerith's koibito, I view this scene as very romantic.

So, if he said he was there for Tifa, you'd also view it as very romantic? Please answer this question very clearly and directly. If you attempt to ignore or equivocate, I will take it as a tacit omission of double standards.

The fact that Squaresoft included Cait Sith's wedding prediction in FFVII helps give us insight into how they view Cloud and Aerith's relationship.

As a joke?

The argument about Cait Sith's prediction should not revolve around how reliable he is. The argument should be about what was SE's intent for including this wedding prediction in the game.

Cait Sith's reliability is relevant, then, because if Cait Sith is unreliable, his prediction can't be trusted. It can be included to indicate comedy in that his prediction is effusive and just as pulled out of his ass as all his other predictions, and then be used later to evoke deep tragedy because Aerith marched to her death after a prediction of having a bright future.

SE could have had Aerith ask Cait Sith about her future and Cait Sith could have said, "You will have a bright future full of many happy times!" -- this would have set the player up to get their heart broken when she was killed by Sephiroth. Instead, they specifically decided to include a prediction about Aerith's romantic future with Cloud.

Yes, from the comic relief character whose defining trait is his unreliable predictions.

It was a romantic prediction about her future with Cloud, not just a generic prediction about her future.

So given the context of the game and how things were progressing between Cloud and Aerith, it is obvious why SE included this wedding prediction -- so the gamer would have the idea in their head that Cloud and Aerith had the possibility of sharing a romantic future together, which would then be destroyed by the hands of the evil Sephiroth. A generic prediction about Aerith's future would not have been nearly as meaningful or impactful to the gamer, which is why they specifically made the prediction about Aerith's romantic future with Cloud.

Or because they wanted an extra bit of lighthearted totty including Cait Sith asking to be invited to the wedding on the way to his death and replacement to serve as further totty fodder to contast with the crushing feeling of her death. It doesn't require Cloud to be interested AT ALL for Aerith getting told 'You'll get everything you want, especially the man you're gunning after' to be tragic in retrospect.

That is your interpretation. Not mine.

Cloud started a new life with, started a family with, belongs with, and has a future with Tifa.
He chose Tifa.
The only thing you have to deny that is to scream interpretation, and shoot yourself in the foot at the same time.

Aerith isn't jealous of C/T's relationship, she is jealous that Tifa is able to live with Cloud and look after him. Tifa, on the other hand, is jealous of Cloud and Aerith's actual relationship.

If Aerith is jealous that Tifa is able to live with Cloud and look after him... She's jealous of their relationship! Thanks for playing, try a copy of our home game!

Tifa's jealously is much different than Aerith's jealously. Here is a passage from the 10th Anniversary Ultimania outlining Tifa's repeated jealously of her "love rival" (ie: Aerith):

"The thing which she is unable to hide in her irritation towards Cloud is the fact that he isn't merely dragging the past around, but because that reason might perhaps be related to Aerith.

FFVII: Seeing Cloud and Aerith developing their world together before her eyes, she inadvertently lets slip her peevish feelings.

AC: Upon knowing that Cloud had been residing in Aerith's church after leaving the place they had been living in together, her expression becomes complex."&#8232; ~Tifa's character profile, 10th Anniversary Ultimania

One of the lines specifically says that Tifa let her "peevish feelings" slip when she saw Cloud and Aerith developing their "own world" together. Why would Tifa be jealous if Aerith was only developing a world of friendship with Cloud?

Because Aerith is capable of casually talking with anyone, including the man she's interested in, something Tifa wants to do but is not inclined towards doing. She's envious of being able to so casually flirt with Cloud and the way she makes people, including Cloud, react. But, as is revealed in the lifestream and under the highwind, Cloud's been gunning for her since day one.

It is clear that Tifa is jealous of the world her "love rival" is forming with Cloud because the world he is forming with Tifa's "love rival" is romantic, which is exactly why Aerith is considered Tifa's "love rival" in the first place. Tifa continues to be jealous of Cloud and Aerith's "world" during Advent Children, probably because she's not sure if Cloud loves her.

That's as clear as mud. Jealousy and 'the world' don't enter into AC/C at all, And again, Tifa and Aerith could be love rivals for Cloud even if he was only interested in Mukki and Red XIII.

But Cloud is stated to "waver" between these two love rivals, which means he is romantically interested in both of his "love rivals". Your point is sunk.

No it is not, because my POINT here is that being love rivals is IRRELEVANT to whether or not Cloud is interested in either of them. And no, I don't deny Cloud had a level of attraction for both women, but again, this cuts both ways. If YOU want to insist being love rivals means Cloud seriously loves Aerith, it means he seriously loves Tifa, too, and it is Tifa with whom he confirms mutual romantic feelings, begins his new life, forms a family, belongs, and has a future with. And it is Tifa that is someone's beloved, rather than simply seeing someone as her beloved.

Here is why I believe the cameo appearances suggests SE views Cloud and Aerith as a romantic couple (and let's not forget that SE just recently made Cloud the "Emperor" and Aerith the "Empress" )

Nomura: "With Aerith, 'flowers' have been her image throughout the series."

Nomura, Reunion Files: &#8220;&#8230;we filmed the video for the ending credits in Hawaii. There are fields of flowers on both sides of the road, and the colors - yellow and white - are the same as the flowers in Aerith&#8217;s church.&#8221;

The flowers shown during the ending of Dissidia are the same color as those found in Aerith's Church. They are also the same color as those that appear in the flower field during Advent Children. They are also the same color as those found on Cloud's desk, and the same color as those Cloud rides his motorcycle through during the credits of Advent Children. The resemblance is hardly a coincidence. But with imagery, I suppose you can't unequivocally prove something 100%. So here's the photos -- you can judge for yourself:

Yellow flowers on Cloud's desk:

Credits during Advent Children:

(Aerith is standing in a yellow flower field. Cloud is shown driving his motorcycle around areas that are filled with yellow flower fields. Aerith's image is superimposed over Cloud multiple times)

Cloud walking through Aerith's Church -- as you can see, yellow/white flowers are growing there:

Flower Field in Advent Children:

Ending of Dissida:

Cloud is standing in a flower field with yellow and white flowers at the end of Dissidia.
Hmmm...

I really think the implications are obvious. When you look at the pictures, combined with the quotes saying flowers represent Aerith (especially yellow and white flowers) it almost becomes painfully obvious.

Yes. Squall is in love with Aerith!
Wait, no... Your point is trying to insert a context of romance where none is intended! Yeah, that's the ticket!

Furthermore, during Dissidia, it is suggested that the crystals will guide each character to where they need to be. Zidane says, "We're not vanishing. We're returning to where we're supposed to be."

Cloud is seen returning to a flower field at the end of the game, which is the place he is "supposed" to be. This flower field is almost identical to the flower fields and flowers that have represented Aerith throughout the compilation. It is also almost identical to the flower field that both Aerith and Cloud appear in during Advent Children.

Unless Tidus belongs in a puddle, Zidane in the Sun, Cecil on the Moon, Terra in a snowflake, OK in some birds, Firion in roses, and Squall alongside Cloud and Aerith, I think it can be said where everyone belongs is 'Their own world.' And THAT'S what those flowers represent. Both Gaia AND Squall's homeland.

In addition, Squall of Final Fantasy VIII is seen leaving when a white feather falls from the sky. This feather represents Rinoa. The parallels between Cloud x Aerith and Squall x Rinoa are obvious.

Aerith, the girl from the slums who favors healing magic and wants nothing more than to belong is not at all similar to Rinoa, the daddy's girl who left her comfortable life to form a resistance movement. Rinoa has more in common with Tifa than Aerith, and Squall and Rinoa's love story is rather disimilar to either C/T or C/A just as Cloud and Squall's personality similarities are rather shallow and their stories are very disimilar.

During the game Cloud also says, &#8220;The one I really want to meet is&#8230;&#8221; And although Cloud doesn&#8217;t finish his sentence, given the ending of Dissidia and the ending of Final Fantasy VII, it is clear who Cloud has a desire to meet.
Dissidia: &#8220;The one I really want to meet is&#8230;&#8221;
Final Fantasy VII:"The Promised Land... I think I can meet her... There..."

It appears as though Cloud could not finish his sentence because it was too painful for him.

Let's recap:
-In Dissidia, Cloud states he has a desire to meet someone
-At the end of FFVII Cloud expressed a desire to meet Aerith in the Promised Land.
-At the end of Dissidia, we see Cloud returning to where he "belongs" -- which is a flower field.

It seems that the person Cloud has a desire to meet in Dissidia is Aerith because he is shown returning to the same flower field that we see them connecting through in Advent Children. This is the place Cloud "belongs".

Cloud returns to his homeworld, where he belongs. Otherwise by your logic, Squall is ALSO returning to Aerith. Besides, we know from Dissidia 012 that he wants to meet Tifa, who he actually switched sides for in the previous conflict.

Terra also asks Cloud: "And you, Cloud... What's your dream?"
Cloud: "I've lost mine."

This could be interpreted as Cloud referring to losing Aerith.

Or, you know, his sense of self, or not having a dream, or actually anything to do with HIS story.

But regardless of that, it is clear that Cloud has a desire to meet Aerith in the Promised Land, and the ending of Dissidia suggests he finally meets her in a flower field (ie: The Promised Land). This is also stated as the place where Cloud is "supposed to be".

Flower fields are not the promised land. Where are you getting this nonsense?

You are free interpret the ending of Dissidia as a platonic connection between Cloud and Aerith. Imagery is always ambiguous. But what is not ambiguous is that flowers represent Aerith (official quotes and common sense prove this), and flower fields represent a spiritual connection between Cloud and Aerith. Cloud is seen returning to where he belongs, which is a flower field of yellow and white flowers. He is also holding a materia -- one that is the same color and kind as Aerith's. Although I can't prove without-a-doubt that the ending of Dissidia is romantic -- it is, at the very least, showing some sort of connection between Cloud and Aerith.

What the ending of Dissidia shows is everyone returning HOME. Water for Spira, The sun and sky for Zidane's Gaia, Flower fields for Squall and Cloud, snow for Terra, the woods for Bartz, the moon for Cecil, birds for OK, Flowers for Firion, and Cornelia for Warrior of Light. You can't divorce Cloud from the rest of the group. It does not work like that. Any reference has to fit in with the greater whole and the greater theme. It makes no sense for Cloud to be reunited with Aerith, when, for example, nothing about Tidus' departure suggest meeting Yuna, who was actually IN 012. And Cecil has a goddamn wife! If SHE isn't worth mentioning, why in the name of flying fuck would a woman Cloud NEVER KNEW was interested be worth deviating from the standard?

Here is why I personally believe it is romantic: nothing happens in a vacuum.

That is precisely why it cannot be romantic. It's not happening in a vacuum. It must be coherent alongside each other departure. There are three other heroes with a canon love interest. One of them gets a possible extremely vague mention. The other two, including the man with a wife and son... gets none.

When you consider the other cameo appearances of Cloud and Aerith (especially FFIX), the established love triangle of a hero wavering between two love interests, and the romantic moments shared between Cloud and Aerith during FFVII (especially the two canon dates and Cloud hoping Aerith likes him, etc.) I do not think it is a leap to view the ending of Dissidia with a romantic lense. This is further confirmed by official quotes from SE such as the koibito quote. It is also worth noting that SE pays homage to Squall x Rinoa, an official canon couple, during the ending of Dissidia.

It also FAILS to pay homage to Cecil and Rosa, the first canon couple, in said ending, and specifically writes Cloud and Tifa as being very concerned with each other in Dissidia 012.

I also think it is obvious what SE was trying to do with the Cloud x Aerith homage in Final Fantasy Tactics and Final Fantasy IX. Although I can't prove without a doubt that SE's intent was romantic in nature, common sense surely suggests it.

In one, the idea of a romance is entirely non-present, given that apart from recognizing her, Cloud says nothing to Ivalice Aerith and then decides to head home back to the one who was waiting for him- that person being Tifa, who is waiting for Cloud in Mideel.

The IX reference is poking fun at FF7, so it's a shoutout, but it's making fun of the pairing more than anything.

In FFIX the Flower Girl calls Knight 7 "cute" and he calls the Flower Girl "beautiful". Their entire conversation is very flirtatious and romantic. Why would SE include this in FFIX if there was no evidence in FFVII that supported the idea that Cloud and Aerith were romantically involved?

He said, ignoring that the knight acts nothing like Cloud and the girl winds up turning him down.

Also -- FFIX was created before Crisis Core. Knight 7 is supposed to be Cloud Strife, especially because he is standing next to a "Flower Girl". The scenario in FFIX is similar and reminiscent of what happens in both FFVII and FFT. It is simply illogical to assume that Knight 7 is Zack when Cloud is the protagonist of FF7.

Cloud was part Zack in FF7. That's actually MORE relevant than IX's poking fun at 7 or referencing FF2 or adding a red moon like ff4.

Then, in Final Fantasy Tactics, you see Cloud meeting a Flower Girl. He essentially has the same conversation with her as Cloud had with Aerith during the beginning of FFVII. In fact, Aerith is called "Flower Girl" in both FFVII and FFT. There is some obvious romantic undertones going on here, especially when you consider Cloud is Aerith's "koibito". Cloud is also the only character in FFT able to equip a ribbon that is similar to Aeith's.

Um, wow. Fuck no.
Stop talking about Final Fantasy Tactics. Cloud does NOT have a conversation with the flower girl, it's Ramza who has that. So is Ramza gonna hook up with Aerith?
Every single female unit can equip ribbons and other hairpins in FFT. Cloud is unique because he can equip female accessories as a male, yes, but then again, he could equip ribbons in FF7, just like the rest of the party.

I just think when you look at the cameos, it is not hard to see that SE is paying homage to Cloud and Aerith as a romantic couple. And the only reason they would do this is if there was evidence to support them as a romantic couple to begin with (ie: evidence from the original game, Final Fantasy VII).

Or because they thought it would be something folks would get, since none of these cameos you've mentioned were actually worked on by the FF7 creative team. Not even Nomura worked on IX or T.
Besides, if there was 'evidence to support them [C/A] as a romantic couple' that would also mean Nomura 'knew' about C/Ts relationship.

Furthermore, please read these similar quotes between FFT and FFVII:


There's some very obvious parallels going on here that have obvious romantic undertones.

Oh, you really shouldn't be using FFT's initial and wonderfully terrible localizations of anything, especially not anything romantic.
The WOL version of the scene actually implies that it's because he's fighting Sephypoo's control that he says those things.

Why do you believe the koibito quote means mutual romance in Tifa's case but not Aerith's?

I don't! I know it means that she is someone's beloved- IE, that someone loves HER. Cloud is far and away the most parsimonious options- and really, the only sane one- as to who it is loves her. Her love for Cloud is previously established, as incidentally, his if for her. No, the important thing about Tifa's Koibito quote is that it has to do with her place in the world and her relations to other people. One of the things she IS is a man's beloved, and Cloud's the only man that fits. It's also an out of universe perspective.

Woman's quote- and yes, I'm going to keep calling her woman because that's all the novella calls her because you are also being willfully obtuse re: Tifa's koibito quote- says that SHE sees Cloud as her beloved. It is told from her point of view, and only reflects on what she things about him, not the other way around.

I cite this scene a lot, but an Anime I am fond of, Uresei Yatsura, has two men argue over which of them can claim a woman as their Koibito (meant in the colloquial mutual sense). Neither is correct.

To me, the koibito quote for both pairings means both are canon.

In which case, NOMURA KNOWS. And Cloud and Tifa are living together, starting a family, etc. etc. etc. And Tifa's Cloud's beloved as of AC/C so, again, victory for C/T.

But why does he care that she died? Because he developed an emotional connection with her. At the very minimum Cloud had feelings of friendship for Aerith, and at the very most Cloud had romantic feelings for Aerith. But he had some type of feelings nonetheless.

...And? This statement is entirely pointless. NO ONE here is claiming Cloud didn't give a shit about her.

My point is that Cloud shared an emotional connection with both Aerith and Zack. His guilt is not just over the fact he believes he let two random people die, his guilt is over the fact that two people he knew, on an intimate level, died.

Again, AND? Both people are his friends. This is known information.

Let's face it -- Cloud has killed a lot of people in his life. But he only feels extreme guilt and blame for allowing those who he cared about die. Why did he care about Aerith? Well, in my opinion, it was because of the romantic feelings he had for her. Why did he care about Zack? Well, in my opinion, it was because of the friendship and camaraderie they shared.

Cloud's guilt and blame are linked to the feelings he had for both Zack and Aerith. It is up to us to decide what type of feelings those are.

Also -- it is Aerith's forgiveness (not Zack's) that Cloud seeks most of all.

Yes, because he didn't promise to protect Zack- and remember Promises are BIG FUCKING DEALS for Cloud- nor nearly kill Zack himself, either.

To me, the whole point of AC/C in terms of the LTD is that Cloud finds Aerith again. That's why he says, "I know.... I'm not alone.... not anymore" at the end of AC/C. He's not alone anymore because he's finally found Aerith.

Aerith is leaving at the end of AC/C. And let me be frank, that you see 'the point' of AC/C as having shit to DO with the LTD says you're coming at it from the wrong angle.

Nomura said that Cloud sees Aerith because her consciousness lives inside of him. That means that Cloud's spirit and Aerith's spirit are united as one. She is with him all the time. It's also possible because we know that Cloud has a ton of Mako energy (Lifestream) injected into him by Hojo. Having all that Lifestream inside of Cloud makes it possible for Aerith's spirit to "live" there.

No. No. No. No. No. No. No.
ONCE AGAIN, that is a figure of speech. Aerith is also described as living on inside ALL her friends, AND she is described at the end of AC/C as returning to the cycle of souls around the planet, the lifestream proper, where she belongs. Along with Zack.

Cloud didn't realize this before the movie because of his guilt. But once he overcame his guilt, he's able to sense Aerith's presence. He's not alone anymore because he's found her again. We know this because SE said that Cloud's Promised Land is Aerith's Church. Cloud said at the end of FFVII that he could find Aerith in the Promised Land. Well, he found his Promised Land, and that's where Aerith is. So, he's finally found her.

I find your Mako parasite theory amusing but stupid.
Cloud isn't alone any more because he has his friends and family and can let them in. He's going to be okay and so Zack and Aerith can leave him BECAUSE he's not alone.

This is also why Cloud is shown searching for ways to connect with her through the flower fields during the end of AC/C. To me, the flower field ending during AC/C suggests that Cloud is searching for more powerful ways to connect with Aerith, somewhat similar to what Yuna did for Tidus in FFX-2.

Cloud is driving home after a delivery at the end of AC/C. Watch reminiscence.

Love is a powerful thing and continues far beyond death, especially in Final Fantasy.

Oh please, save your trite meaningless statements for someone who hasn't heard this shit millions of times. Yes, FF7 is a fantasy world. No, that does NOT automatically mean anything fantastic is possible. FF7 is an extremely grounded fantasy world as far as human interactions and themes go. Fuck, one of the themes of FF7 was how much death sucks and that you don't get to come back from it.

------------------------------


I never said it was an "abnormal" question. I agree with you that couples sometimes ask this question during the course of a relationship.

But why do people ask this question? Because relationships change. And sometimes relationships change in a way that one person falls out of love with the other.

Tifa is asking the question not just because she is insecure by nature, but because Cloud and Tifa's relationship had changed. Their relationship had changed to the point where Tifa wasn't sure if Cloud loved her or not.

How do we know Cloud and Tifa's relationship changed?
-Nojima's premise that thing's "aren't going well" between them.
-Nojima not knowing if even Denzel and Marlene will be enough to help them sort through their problems.
-Tifa not knowing if Cloud loves her.
-The "maternal bond" Tifa feels toward Cloud that drives him away and causes him to stop speaking to her.

These are just as much bullshit as when you tried to quote them to me.

Why do you ignore that Cloud is refereed to as Aerith's "koibito"? If the word "koibito" tells us that mutual attraction exists, aren't both couples canon?

We don't. It doesn't. It tells us WOMAN sees Cloud as her beloved.

I don't deny that SE has provided evidence that supports Cloud x Tifa. What I take issue with is that Cloti's claim Cloud x Tifa is canon, even though SE has called Cloud Aerith's koibito.

Which means nothing as far as Cloud is concerned.

As for your questions about my opinion regarding the HAHW scene, well:
In my honest opinion, the HAHW scene is most likely canon (although the evidence behind it is not as strong as many of you think). But my biggest point during this debate has been that even if the HAHW scene occurred, it did not necessarily lead to a romantic relationship between Cloud and Tifa.

Expressing mutual romantic feelings does not necessarily mean a romantic relationship comes after it, especially when we consider that Nomura doesn't know the status of their relationship, the fact that Tifa doesn't know if Cloud loves her, and the premise from Nojima that things "aren't going well" between them.

No scene after the Highwind scene unequivocally moves Cloud and Tifa from friends to lovers. To me, this suggests that even if the HAHW scene happened, there is no proof that a romantic *relationship* developed from it. And even if one did develop for a brief period of time, it was completely gone by Advent Children when Tifa doesn't even know if Cloud loves her.

Even though you admit above you think the Koibito quote makes both pairings canon and that refers to Tifa circa AC/C. So, we once again catch you holding two contrary positions simultaneously.

If Nomura doesn't know if Cloud and Tifa form a romantic relationship after the HAHW scene, how can we be sure that they are in a romantic relationship? If Tifa doesn't know if Cloud loves her after the HAHW scene, how can we be sure that Cloud loves her after the HAHW scene?

Because he does know. Because Cloud and Tifa formed a family. Their family. Where he belongs. With Tifa as his beloved. Also they have a future together.

In addition, it is stated that Cloud and Aerith's promised date "ends magically". Common sense suggests that when a date ends "magically," something extremely *magical* happened. Just as we can make assumptions about what happens when a screen fades to black, we can also make assumptions about what happens when a date ends *magically*.

Again, no it hasn't been stated. The more you harp on this, the bigger a fool you make yourself.

So really, please continue.

One could say that out of the two versions of the Highwind scene, the HA version is canon. One could also say that out of the four versions of the Golden Saucer date, the C/A date is canon. To me, the C/A Golden Saucer date is equal to the HAHW scene in terms of showing mutual romantic feelings.

He said, providing no evidence or underlying logic for any part of his conclusion.

Granted, SE specifically says that Cloud and Tifa express mutual feelings during the Highwind scene. But a date is inherently romantic, there is no need to state the obvious. By Cloud agreeing to go on a romantic date with Aerith shows that he has mutual romantic feelings for her (especially when you consider that Cloud is refereed to as Aerith's "koibito").

Cloud has to be pushed out of the fucking room and has no goddamn clue WHAT Aerith is going on about during her date.

And again, WOMAN's Koibito, from HER perspective. She loves him.

To me, the HAHW scene and the C/A date are equal in terms of showing Cloud's romantic feelings for both women.

...In which case, because you think Cloud is in love with Aerith, he must also be equally in love with Tifa?
Glad you could admit that. Now we just need to work on you proving Cloud is ACTUALLY in love with Aerith.

------------------------------

As for the translation debate, I still need some more time to construct my response. But for right now, here are my translations of the quotes in question:


1.

"The words &#8220;memetic legacy&#8221; are used a lot in the film&#8230;but in Advent Children, rather than focusing on memories we wanted to show that consciousness is what lives on. We took the ending of the game and expanded on that idea. Even if they&#8217;re dead, their consciousness is still with us. As for Cloud&#8230;he sees Aerith several times throughout the film. It&#8217;s not that he sees her because he feels her presence. He sees her because her consciousness&#8230;lives on inside him." ~Nomura; Distance Interview

You can see this quote for yourself if you watch the special features disc for Advent Children.

We have. It is still an idiomatic expression, because Aerith is also said to live on inside all of her friends, as well as within the lifestream proper. It's also clarified, in the same special, that it's similar to a grandparent 'living on' inside their grandkids. As memories.

2.

The translation I use is from Saeki of the CxA forums:

Since a lot of the translation from TLS come from Cloti's, there is no shame (IMO) in getting my translation from someone of the CxA forums.

With the history of errors from said forums are as long as they are, you should feel shame.
Wacdonalds! Koi___Bito! TICKETS! And of course 'Enchanted evening' getting turned into 'ends magically.'

Saeki believes that Nomura is contrasting Cloud's feelings with the feelings of his comrades, which is a fair comparison to make considering Cloud and Aerith's relationship is different from that of her comrades.

The feelings Aerith's comrades have for her are platonic, while the feelings Cloud has for her are romantic (this is exactly why SE separated Cloud's feelings from her comrades feelings).

Cloud is Aerith's "koibito," therefore he has romantic feelings for her that are different than the platonic feelings her comrades have for her. Period.

No. Not period. It means SHE has different feelings for HIM than she does her other comrades. That's period.

3.
FlareGamer.com:
Tetsuya Nomura: What kind of question is that? I've never thought about it. Honestly, I don't care who loves whom. I think you could imagine the scenerios that we don't mention however you want to. You could enjoy talking about that with friends. For example, I was frequently asked if there had been romantic relationship between Tifa and Cloud for two years, after FF7 ended, but I don't have any clue.
Source: http://flaregamer.com/b2article.php?p=109&more=1

This translation says Nomura has "no clue" about the status of their relationship, not that he "doesn't care". Therefore, the HAHW scene does not unequivocally prove Cloud and Tifa entered a romantic relationship because the status of their relationship after FFVII is unknown by Nomura.

Nomura is one of three major head honchos. Nomura not giving a shit about relationships doesn't mean the other two don't.
Also, can I just say how fucking hilarious it is you're trying to cite Flaregamer on this shit. Not because it's bad translations, but because she's laughing at you too.

4.
Aerith Gainsborough - A girl with the blood of the Ancients running through her veins, who Cloud would never forget. ~DoC game manual, English version

Aerith Gainsborough - A girl with the blood of the Ancients flowing through her veins, who is engraved in Cloud's heart for the rest of his life. ~DoC game manual, direct translation from Japanese version

The official English translation says that Aerith is someone that Cloud would never forget. However, a direct translation from the Japanese version of the Dirge of Cerberes game manual says that Aerith is engraved in Cloud's heart for the rest of this life. But if you want me to stop using this quote, I will do so. However, if I were to use Japanese characters, my point would be the same.

Your 'point' is still be a deliberate mis-use of a known idiomatic phrase. Unless, of course, you want to say Cloud's promise to Tifa is inherently romantic.

The bottom line is: Aerith is someone Cloud will never forget. To me, the reason he will never forget Aerith is because he is her "koibito".

This is a completely unsupported and entirely illogical notion, and kind of ignores the whole 'got kebabed in front of him after he nearly did it himself' that MORE than explains why he could never forget her, even if she wasn't also his friend.

In addition, Aerith's forgiveness was stated to be the "wish of Cloud's heart". This tells me that Aerith weights heavy on Cloud's heart. All I'm doing is applying the terms "wish in his heart" to the context of Cloud and Aerith's romantic relationship as it has been established by SE. You are free to apply the same sort of quotes in the same way to Cloud and Tifa's relationship.

Uh, 1. SE has not established a romantic relationship between Cloud and Aerith. They didn't have one. Cloud didn't know she was ever interested.
2. NO FUCKING DUH she weighs heavy on his heart. His guilt for her death is preventing him from feeling happy with the woman he loves and the kids they raise.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

You people that are saying Tifa should've beaten Cloud up, I'm going to have to disagree, not only because it would be a very much OOC thing for Tifa to do, but also because it would probably qualify as domestic violence. I don't know about you guys, but I wouldn't want to be in a romantic relationship with someone who beats me up when I'm depressed. Hell, I wouldn't want to be in a romantic relationship with someone who beats me up at all. If that happened to me, I would file a domestic violence charge. Violence is almost never the answer.

When you're being a mopey shit with that much power and your kids have been kidnapped? Oh, yeah, violence may not be the answer, but it's certainly "one possible answer" as Nomura would say.

 

[JayM]

Re: "Magical Night," BlankBeat, here is the discussion of how the translation folks have been using for years is actually wrong, starting with my crappy re-translation. I recommend reading everything afterwards for the full breakdown, so you don't feel like you're just having a translation shoved at you without explanation.

Basically, yeah, what had been translated for years as a night that ended magically...well, first of all is inaccurate because the "end" was actually referring to the promise being fulfilled, but second, "Magical Night" is the literal rendering of what was translated as "Enchantment Night."

 

[Octo]

Two things.

1) What the hell is going on with Clouds hair in Dissidia? The guy needs to get his roots done.

2) The 'smile' to Tifa Cloud does during the Bahamut battle.....um... I'm not really convinced (I mean Cloud isn't really very expressive in AC anyway...too much Botox methinks) I was wondering where that came from? I don't think its necessary to use it as evidence for C/T and to be honest I think it hurts the argument as it is that flimsy.

I mean why grasp at straws when you can grasp a 2x4?

Just a thought, I don't mean to offend anyone.

 

[Cookie Monster]

I smiled at my friend yesterday, I suppose that means I unconsciously want to bum him lovingly, because that's what smiling inexplicably insinuates. It's definitely not my girlfriend, who I also smiled at that night. Keep on dividing by zero folks.

Now, I'm not one to usually post in this thread, or even this section, because I honestly could care less about FFVII these days. However, I decided to pop in and read the last two or three pages. I have to say, trying to affirm a relationship "BECUSE FLOWERS!!!1 FLOWERS ABOUND!!! LOOK AT ALL THE FLOWERS!!! HE LOVES HER. HE MUST" fails. Fails hard. You also failed to post images of those yellow flowers over Zack's grave. I suppose that means Cloud wants to lovingly bum Zack now, because of FLOWERS, amirite? The flowers don't suggest love, they serve as a remembrance for those fallen. Which further suggests that ever "undying" feeling Cloud has is guilt, not love. I think someone stated that earlier, if I recall correctly.

And, suggesting that a relationship between Cloud & Tifa may or may not exist somehow validates Cloud loving Aerith, is an argument that also fails. This is called apophasis, affirmation through negation, and it is one of the weakest and most vulnerable forms of logical argument. Try harder.

Now, don't mind me as I abruptly leave to go have some tea.