The Love Triangle Debate thread of KNEEL BEFORE ZOD OR SUFFER HIS WRATH (ignore the opening posts at your peril) (Round 6)

[Selphie Tilmitt]

I still say ...

They are both canon! Feel my Clerith vibes

Once canon, always canon imo

Random but I love dat new Aerith avatar

Spoiler

 

[Ryushikaze]

I still say ...

They are both canon! Feel my Clerith vibes

Once canon, always canon imo

Which is a fair position to take, so long as you can provide sufficient evidence for what you are defining as 'canon.'

Which, IIRC, in your case is just 'had/has feelings for both' so that's not too difficult.

 

[Danseru-kun]

That's why it's up to interpretation

No it's not. You are free to interpret a lot of things of FFVII but facts remain facts.

Tifa is someone's koibito
Cloud and Tifa have held favor for each other for many years leading to the night before the final battle, this same favor is what Aerith feels for Cloud
Cloud and Tifa confirmed mutual romantic feelings the same way as canon FF couples did
Tifa is the only person Cloud has opened his heart to

Other facts:
There is no single quote or statement saying Cloud and Aerith confirmed mutual romantic feelings
There is no single quote or statement saying Cloud returned Aerith's "favor"


To tear down these facts and prove that it's "all interpretation" you demand a new standard that you think Cloti hasn't met yet, for example the relationship charts. But like what others had said, if you go by that standard Cecil/Rosa, Wakka/Lulu aren't canon.

This is the 20th AU so it means FFX-2 is already released. The relationship between Wakka and Lulu is "childhood friends"

Cecil and Rosa only "favor" each other, despite them being married at the end.

But then you argue, "being married makes them canon."

Maybe true, look at Hojo and Lucrecia, perhaps they love each other. In fairness, there is not even a single quote saying Wakka and Lulu love each other or confirmed their feelings. So technically they have the same evidences as HojoxLucrecia -> marriage and offspring. Using your standards Hojo/Lucrecia and Wakka/Lulu are more canon than Clerith as well because they married and have an offspring regardless of romantic feelings.

I can point out unreliable character relationships from my other fandoms but I guess they aren't that relevant.

 

[Danseru-kun]

Just a segway from the topic, regarding Cloud abandoning Tifa therefore he does not love her I think the same case is seen in Harry Potter

Spoiler

Remember why Lupin ran away from Tonks and their baby? It's because he's guilty of his werewolf affliction possibly being inherited by their baby and making his family outcasts. He ran away and wants to join Harry. What did Harry do?

Ohoho probably nag and bitch him like Tifa did.

Regarding multiple father figures being an insult... My grandpa abandoned my dad, aunt and my grandma (his legit wife) and made more babies with other women who he also left. My father had to grow without a biological father around and has to look up to many uncles as his father figures. Those extended relatives also supported my grandma. In our culture (which is Asian like Japan) it's also not uncommon that a family refers to a "whole clan" that lives together in one house or compound. So it's one big family made up my many families. It's an insult to this culture to say Marlene having two father figures and belonging to two families is an insult.

 

[Unlucky]

IMO Marlene has only one father figure, and that is Cloud. Barret is technically the father she's known all her life. Yes, they're not biologically related, but she never knew her real father Dyne. Barret has filled that role in her life ever since.

From Marlene's wiki page:

As Marlene was less than a year old when her town was burned to the ground and her mother was killed, she has no memory of her biological parents.

So I say Barret is the father, and Cloud the father figure. And by this thought, Cloud isn't replacing Barret's place in Marlene's life, as a father figure is considered separate from the father.

But anyway, Marlene can definitely belong to two families. Her first family is composed of Barret and herself. When Barret left her to the care of Cloud and Tifa, who are co-habitating partners, she joins a new one (C & T's). That doesn't mean that Barret is not her father anymore, as, again, a father figure (Cloud) is different from the father.

 

[BlankBeat]

This is the 20th AU so it means FFX-2 is already released. The relationship between Wakka and Lulu is "childhood friends"

1. Many of the relationship charts for FFVII came out after AC. But that doesn't mean the charts were necessarily talking about both FFVII and AC.

The FFX chart simply says FFX. It does not say FFX compilation. Nor does it say FFX and FFX-2. Assuming that it is talking about both because it came out after FFX-2 is a HUGE assumption, especially when nothing indicates that it is talking about anything more than FFX. In fact, all it says is FFX.

2. Is there anything on the FFX chart that says anything about information that was given to us in FFX-2? Until you can show me where anything on that chart refers to FFX-2, you are simply assuming that the chart is talking about both FFX and FFX-2.

3. Lulu and Wakka get married and have a child together *after* FFX is over. Cloud and Tifa do not have anything remotely similar to that. Therefore, even though the relationship chart doesn't say Lulu and Wakka are in a romantic relationship, we have undeniable evidence that they are, in fact, in a romantic relationship. Cloud and Tifa have no such undeniable evidence. That's the difference.

Again -- Cloud and Tifa express mutual feelings. But they do not do anything after expressing mutual feelings that is undeniable evidence of a romantic relationship, such as getting married or having a baby (ie: what Lulu and Wakka did).

Expressing mutual feelings =/= romantic relationship.

Cecil and Rosa only "favor" each other, despite them being married at the end.

Favor arrows mean mutual romance. Cloud and Tifa do not have mutual favor arrows. What is your point?

Tifa is someone's koibito

Cloud is Aerith's koibito.

The koibito argument is a moot point.

Cloud and Tifa have held favor for each other for many years leading to the night before the final battle, this same favor is what Aerith feels for Cloud
Cloud and Tifa confirmed mutual romantic feelings the same way as canon FF couples did

Since SE never tells us exactly how Cloud and Tifa expressed their mutual feelings, why is it assumed it was anything more than Cloud saying, "I like you and want to take you on a date like I went on with Aerith" and Tifa saying, "Ok! I like you too!"

To assume it was this confession of undying love and commitment is a huge assumption, IMO.

Also -- Nomura doesn't know the status of their relationship after FFVII ends (meaning the HAHW scene does not necessarily lead to a romantic relationship).

It is also worth nothing that in Seventh Heaven Cloud has his own bed in his own room, Tifa does not know if Cloud loves her, and Marlene will *always* be Barret's daughter. All of this is not indicative of a romantic relationship, which is reinforced by the relationship charts.

Other facts:
There is no single quote or statement saying Cloud and Aerith confirmed mutual romantic feelings

Why does your argument hinge on *confirming* mutual feelings? Whether Aerith realizes Cloud's mutual feelings is irrelevant because the LTD has always revolved around, "who does Cloud love?" *NOT* "which couple confirmed mutual feelings?"

Cloud goes on a date with Aerith *after* telling Marlene he hopes Aerith likes him. In addition, a date is inherently romantic. So when you consider that Cloud tells Marlene he hopes Aerith likes him, and the fact that he agreed to go on a *date* with Aerith, it is impossible to deny that he has romantic feelings for Aerith.

Since the question has always been "who does Cloud love?" *NOT* "which couple expressed mutual feelings?" it has been established that Cloud has romantic feelings for both Aerith and Tifa. Aerith not knowing of Cloud's mutual feelings is irrelevant because that's not the question.

What is not established, however, is that Cloud was in a relationship with either of them.

Mutual feelings do not always lead to a romantic relationship. Although that is typically what happens, I do not believe it happened with Cloud and Tifa.

Why do I not believe this? Because when SE had the opportunity to tell us how Cloud and Tifa's relationship changed from FFVII to AC through the use of relationship charts, they described their relationship as "childhood friends" in both the FFVII chart and the AC chart.

Including two charts was meant to tell us how relationships changed from FFVII to AC. Cloud and Tifa's relationship did not change beyond being described as "childhood friends" in both charts. Therefore, the mutual feelings expressed under the Highwind did not lead to a romantic relationship between Cloud and Tifa based on the relationship charts.

--------------------

I will attempt to answer your questions, although I'm not as familiar with other FF games as I am with FFVII.

I will note, however, that the other FF games *do not* have films. With the lack of films for the other games, we are unable to see how the relationships progressed between the canon couples (aside from FFX because of FFX-2, which we all know is clear Tidus x Yuna evidence).

In this discussion, because other canon couples do not have films, it is only fair to compare what we find between Cloud and Tifa in FFVII to what we find in the games of the other canon couples. Therefore, all Cloud and Tifa have from FFVII is the HAHW scene.

Cloud and Tifa have the first part required for a *canon* status because they express mutual feelings, but they do not have the second part. Cloud and Tifa do not kiss, get married, say "I love you", say "will you be my boyfriend/girlfriend?", no sleeping in the same room, having a romantic embrace, or any other sort of undeniable romantic behavior. Nor do they have any official pieces of dialogue or statements by SE that support them as a couple.

Expressing mutual feelings =/= romantic relationship.

What is the evidence in FF6 that Locke and Celes ever actually act on their feelings?

There is a love triangle between Locke, Rachel, and Celes. But after Rachel's death, it is clear that Locke is meant to move on with Celes. In Rachel's final farewell, she tells Locke: "Give your love to the one who now dwells within your heart...love her..as you loved me."

This is clear evidence from SE that Locke is to be with Celes. By SE having Rachel tell Locke to *love* Celes, that is unequivocal proof that they are meant to be together and that they are the canon couple.

If Aerith had said to Cloud about Tifa, "Give your love to the one who now dwells within your heart...love her..as you loved me," the LTD would be over.

And just to make clear: Locke is not seen reaching for Rachel's hand at the end of the game and telling us that he wants to go meet her in the Promised Land. So unlike FFVII, it is definite that the LT is over by the time FFVI is done because Rachel gives Locke permission to *love* Celes.

In FF8, do Squall and Rinoa, Irvine and Selphie, or Zell and pigtailed girl (Whom I am tempted to name Ranko for the hell of it) ever actually go out?

Squall and Rinoa kiss at the end of the game. There is no question about the nature of their relationship. Again -- Cloud and Tifa do not have any physical evidence of a romantic relationship after the HAHW scene.

In FF9, We see Zidane and Garnet and Aldebert and Beatrix have confessions, but no real sign of a continuing relationship, certainly no evidence of cohabitation.

The ending of the game shows Garnet running and romantically embracing Zidane after they have been unequivocally established as romantic love interests. This was an obvious piece of romantic imagery by SE.

Although you could argue that the end of the game shows Cloud holding Tifa, it also shows Aerith reaching for Cloud from the sky. Cloud also expresses a desire to meet Aerith in the Promised Land. So to me, that is equal evidence for both pairings.

In addition, statements from SE make it clear that Zidane and Garnet are the only possible canon couple in FFIX. The same can't be said for Cloud and Tifa.

In FF13- well, 13-2, Snow and Serah are technically engaged, but he ACTUALLY spent the two year gap between 13 and 13-2 somewhere else- looking for Serah's presumed dead sister.

Odd, isn't it? In 13-2, you actually get Snow doing the exact thing many a clerith has claimed Cloud was actually doing, but no one would insist that Snow is in love with Lightning- though much ado was made, I recall, of her being voiced by the same actress as Aerith but being similar in many ways to Cloud.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't this official quote actually claim Noel x Yeul and Snow x Serah are official?

“The game didn’t feature any love story between Noel and Serah since both characters had their own loved ones in Yeul and Snow respectively.” - Final Fantasy XIII-2 Ultimania Omega

Snow x Serah are also seen hugging, kissing, and having a date with fireworks. Cloti has none of that.


That's all I have to say about the other canon couples for now.

But I must make this clear -- when I'm talking about *canon* couples, I'm talking about couples that are given an equal amount of attention by SE. Many of the couples you ask about are not given that much attention and/or development because they aren't the main hero/heroine.

So if a couple of a lesser status is given less evidence than Cloud and Tifa, I don't buy your argument. I guess I should have qualified my statement with: Cloud and Tifa are not shown with the same amount of evidence as the other *main* canon couples, meaning Squall x Rinoa, Zidane x Garnet, Tidus x Yuna, etc.

It is a fact that the hero's relationship is going to be given the most attention and development. By trying to compare Cloud x Tifa to more minor couples is an unfair comparison, IMO. So I will revise my statement to say that Cloud and Tifa are not treated like the other *main* Final Fantasy couples.

Also, it's not an insult in the slightest for Marlene to have multiple father figures. Note that second word. -figures-. Cloud is not replacing Barret as Marlene's dad in Marlene's mind BUT he is serving the same role as a father while she is part of Cloud's family, "the 7th heaven family", the family Barret is not a nuclear part of.

“The rumor said it’s an epidemic. I don’t want Marlene to be infected. C’mon, let’s go home.” said Barret with a complete fatherly look on his face.

“Yeah, let’s go home” Cloud agreed.

“Where to?” Barret asked.

“Our suspended reality.”

“What the hell do you mean by that?”

“Our normal lives.”

“And where do we have something like that?”

“We’ll find one.” Cloud looked at Tifa and said, “Right?”

“Yeah!” cried the cheerful Marlene. Tifa nodded too, but just like Barret, she wondered where they had a normal life. ~CoT

This conversation between Cloud, Tifa, Barret, and Marlene demonstrate the idea that even from the very beginning, they each knew they were in it together.

Barret says to everyone, "let's go home". Cloud agrees and Barret asks where this new home will be. Cloud responds and says they'll find a place *together*

This isn't about just Cloud and Tifa attempting to start a new life together. From the very start, the four of them worked hard to establish the New Seventh Heaven. Before Barret leaves for *work*, it is brought up by Marlene and then made certain by Barret that what they've established at Seventh Heaven is what one would consider a family:

I’ll be a nice child of this family!” Marlene said.

Hearing those words, Cloud and Tifa looked at each other. A child of this family?

“I’ll take care of Cloud and Tifa!”

Barret turned round and shouted, “Do your best!” His voice was a little shaky.

“Unite the family’s strength and keep at it!” ~CoT

While Barret is away, Marlene says she will take care of Cloud and Tifa. But what they formed before Barret left was a family that includes all of them. That was their intent from the beginning as I outlined from the passage above. They started a new life *together* when Cloud told Barret that they would find a place to call home *together*. This place turns out to be Seventh Heaven.

Based on these two passages, it is clear that Cloud, Tifa, and Barret formed a family together at Seventh Heaven. That was their intention from the very beginning.

--------------------

But charts and shit, I guess.

Just because the charts are sometimes inconsistent does not invalidate my point. The inconsistencies do not explain why SE CONSISTENTLY describes Cloud and Tifa as "CHILDHOOD FRIENDS" *ONLY* in every single *relationship* chart (including the Advent Children chart).

This becomes especially clear when the designed intent of including a FFVII chart and an AC chart was to show how relationships evolved between the two time periods. According to the two charts, no evolution took place between Cloud and Tifa because they are described as "childhood friends" in both charts.

The bottom line is: SE has *CONSISTENTLY* called Cloud and Tifa "childhood friends" in every single relationship chart. Therefore, SE is not inconsistent when it comes to *Cloud x Tifa's* relationship.

EDIT #1: It wasn’t until disc 2 that Cid learned Shera was right about aborting the rocket launch and he forgave her. Point is, at the time Avalanche first met Cid and Shera, they were living together but Cid was NOT in love with Shera at that time.

In addition, Cid and Shera get *married* after they express mutual feelings. Cloud and Tifa do not.

EDIT #2: People always complain I don't post in any other threads. I posted two thread in the politics section -- one on my Queen Hillary Clinton, and the other on corporate welfare. Take a look!

 

[Danseru-kun]

I gotta go cp from my tumblr

Yes and No

Is Barret a part of Cloud's family?

Why yes:
1. Barret is Marlene’s father dammit and he has a drawing in the children’s room
2. Barret wears a Fenrir symbol that Cloud, Denzel and Tifa wears
Why no:

Still bearing the pain from her past, she lived together with Cloud, Marlene and Denzel, a boy who had sought shelter at the slum’s Church.
FFVII 10th Anniversary Ultimania Tifa Lockhart Character Profile p 42-47

Cloud brought Denzel back from the slum’s church and from then, it became the four of them living together.
FFVII 10th Anniversary Ultimania Tifa Lockhart Character Profile p 42-47

Cloud brings Denzel back from the slum’s church and Denzel joins Cloud’s family. FFVII 10th Anniversary Complete Timeline

Now running a delivery business while helping out Tifa with the newly opened “Seventh Heaven” bar, Cloud, Tifa, Marlene and Denzel lived together like a family. However, when Cloud contracts Geostigma he disappears. Behind these actions lies feelings of guilt towards his past failure to protect people who were important to him, but through his battle with Kadaj’s gang, the legacy of Jenova, he regains the courage to face reality.
FFVII 10th Anniversary Ultimania Cloud Strife Profile p36-41

After visiting various locations with Tifa and Barret, Tifa opened the “Seventh Heaven” bar. Before setting off on a journey, Barret left Marlene in Cloud and Tifa’s care, and the three of them began living together.
FFVII 10th Anniversary Ultimania Cloud Strife Profile p36-41

“Good for you. Whole world’s clappin’ you on the back. So Cloud’s with Tifa?”
“Yeah. Tifa opened a bar, just like the old days. Cloud was helpin’ out, but it sounds like he’s got his own business keepin’ him tied up now. A delivery service.”
“Cloud? Run a business?”
“You can bet it’s Tifa kickin’ his ass into shape.”
“I see. In the end, it’s the women wear the pants.” -Case of Barret


When he awakes, there was his friends. There were the children, freed from their fatal illness. Tifa and Marlene, and Denzel asking for Cloud to heal his Geostigma— his family were waiting. Engulfed in celebration, he realizes where he is meant to live. He realizes that he was able to forgive himself.

- (SOURCE: 10th AU, ACC Playback:

In the past you’ve always looked after me, you, Denzel and Tifa. You were there whenever I needed you. Now it’s my turn.- Cloud to Marlene in ACC

​

Some arguments:
How come Marlene invited Cloud in their family (that includes Barret and Tifa) in Case of Tifa then?

“A family.” (Tifa)
“Yeah.” (Marlene)
Marlene cheerfully answered in response to Tifa’s murmur.
“I’ll put Cloud in our family too.” (Marlene)
“I appreciate that.” (Cloud)
After Cloud thanked Marlene’s innocent offer with his serious face, he looked at Tifa. Tifa nodded a little. Would there be various problems arising after this? However, Tifa decided that she would stop worrying about the relationship between the two of them.
​

Firstly, well why could Marlene’s childish invitation invalidate what SE says? But then later in the story we have Barret entrusting Marlene to Cloud and Tifa and Marlene saying she’s take care of the two of them. Marlene is already a child of Barret’s family and it wouldn’t make sense that she’s referring to Barret in her line here especially no how Cloud and Tifa reacted.

“I’ll be a nice child of this family!” Marlene said.
Hearing those words, Cloud and Tifa looked at each other. A child of this family?
“I’ll take care of Cloud and Tifa!”
Barret turned round and shouted, “Do your best!” His voice was a little shaky.
“Unite the family’s strength and keep at it!”
-Case of Tifa
​

Case of Tifa says they’re a family of friends

Friends were a necessity to me so that I could live on without being supressed by the sins in my consciousness. Even if they were fellow companions that had the same wounds. Even if they were fellow companions who were burdened with the same sins. We couldn’t live without comforting each other and encouraging each other.
Maybe you could call that family. We just had to keep the family together and do our best. Tifa thought she could get over anything while being with friends that she could call her family.
​

What are Marlene and Denzel’s sins? This is referring to people who committed them. Again, what are Marlene and Denzel’s sins?
All in all:
Barret is family to Cloud, Tifa, Denzel and especially Marlene, however there exists three families all together. One is Barret and Marlene, second is what SE always describe as the “four” which is Cloud, third is what Tifa calls a family of friends who share the same sins.
So Barret is not part of “Cloud’s family” but he is Cloud’s family. Just think of this a big house with families living together. Cloud’s family is his nuclear family and Barret and their friends is part of his extended family. Marlene have two nuclear families all in all. A friend of mine says in the comments the more appropriate term is that they are all a member of one big clan. Usually Asian families are like this.
In the end it doesn’t matter that much in the Love Triangle debate because whether or not Barret’s the father of the family it doesn’t make any less of what Cloud and Tifa feel for each other.
-Example:
My cousin’s mother died leaving her with her grandma and uncle, her father is now married to another woman and have children with her. She considers her father and her step family her nuclear family but then because of the situation the one who really takes care of her and lives with her is her extended family, which are her legal guardians. So all in all her grandma and uncle are not a part of her nuclear family with her dad, but she’s family to her nonetheless.

 

[BlankBeat]

I just want to clarify my point:

To me, what makes a couple *canon* is not only a confession, but evidence that a romantic relationship develops. That can either come from a statement by SE, a piece of dialogue, or an undeniable example of romantic behavior.

I agree that Cloud and Tifa have a similar romantic confession that other *canon* couples have. But what Cloud and Tifa lack that other *canon* couples have is either undeniable statements by SE or undeniable examples of romantic behavior that firmly establishes a romantic relationship.

In addition, it is irrelevant that Cloud and Aerith do not confess their feelings for each other. It is established that Cloud has romantic feelings for Aerith. Since the question has always been, "who does Cloud love?" *NOT* "which couple confessed mutual feelings?", it means that both Aerith and Tifa are valid interpretations to the LTD.

Furthermore, SE never tells us exactly how Cloud and Tifa expressed their mutual feelings, why is it assumed it was anything more than Cloud saying, "I like you and want to take you on a date like I went on with Aerith" and Tifa saying, "Ok! I like you too!" To assume it was this confession of undying love and commitment is a huge assumption, IMO.

The bottom line is: there is no official evidence that Cloud developed a romantic *relationship* with either Aerith or Tifa. Mutual feelings do not always lead to a romantic relationship. Although that is typically what happens, I do not believe it happened with Cloud and Tifa.

Why do I not believe this? Because when SE had the opportunity to tell us how Cloud and Tifa's relationship changed from FFVII to AC through the use of relationship charts, they described their relationship as "childhood friends" in both the FFVII chart and the AC chart.

Including two charts was meant to tell us how relationships changed from FFVII to AC. Cloud and Tifa's relationship did not change beyond being described as "childhood friends" in both charts. Therefore, the mutual feelings expressed under the Highwind did not lead to a romantic relationship between Cloud and Tifa based on the relationship charts.

 

[Master Bates]

To me, what makes a couple *canon* is not only a confession, but evidence that a romantic relationship develops.

The bottom line is: there is no official evidence that Cloud developed a romantic *relationship* with either Aerith or Tifa.

Then by your own statements and standards, none of them is canon. Therefore, there is no intended pairing, despite CloTi having glaringly obvious evidence (literal-mind-strolling-intimacy, confirmation of mutual affection that lead to cohabitating and adopted childred (I won't even touch the implied sex)---all of this present in the narrative and metatext, which to you seem to have less weight over relationship charts) compared to other FF couples you have no qualms accepting as canon. But no, you won't accept CloTi because you have ridiculously high standards set for it, even shifting goal posts when they happen to reach said standards, while very generously set the lowest bar for Clerith.

I really have great difficulty following your thought process, BB. Let's not argue semantics and simply use logic, shall we? Also, let us learn to read between the lines.

Just because the charts are sometimes inconsistent does not invalidate my point.

But it does.

>> Narrative + Metatext > Relationship Charts.
>> Relationship charts does not convey the entirety of a character's relationship with other characters. Relationship charts are clarified and reinforced by the source material and other meta stuffs.
>> Cloud and Tifa, while being lovers, are also childhood friends
>> I am bothered by your fixation on relationship charts. Is it a fetish?

EDIT: People always complain I don't post in any other threads. I posted two thread in the politics section -- one on my Queen Hillary Clinton, and the other on corporate welfare. Take a look!

YOUR GREATEST TLS ACHIEVEMENT YET! GOODNESS I'M SO PROUD OF YOU! *reduced to a pool of tears*



No seriously, I am.

 

[BlankBeat]

Then by your own statements and standards, none of them is canon.

I've aways maintained throughout this entire debate that the LTD is up to interpretation. Neither pairing is canon according to SE.

To me, there is evidence that Cloud has feelings of *love* for both Aerith and Tifa:
-Cloud goes on a date with Aerith at Golden Saucer after telling Marlene he hopes Aerith likes him
-Cloud and Tifa express mutual feelings under the Highwind
-SE describes both of their relationships with the word "koibito"
-SE describes the LTD as a "hero wavering between two heroines"

And since the question has always been "who does Cloud love?" *NOT* "which couple expressed mutual feelings?" it has been established that Cloud has romantic feelings for both Aerith and Tifa. Aerith not knowing of Cloud's mutual feelings is irrelevant because that's not the question.

Therefore, there is no intended pairing, despite CloTi having glaringly obvious evidence (literal-mind-strolling-intimacy, confirmation of mutual affection that lead to cohabitating and adopted childred (I won't even touch the implied sex)---all of this present in the narrative and metatext, which to you seem to have less weight over relationship charts) compared to other FF couples you have no qualms accepting as canon. But no, you won't accept CloTi because you have ridiculously high standards set for it, even shifting goal posts when they happen to reach said standards, while very generously set the lowest bar for Clerith.

The reason the standards might seem higher for Cloud and Tifa is because FFVII is one of the few FF's with a love triangle. Therefore, the evidence has to be even stronger. When talking about other main FF couples that don't have an LTD, the evidence doesn't need to be as strong because there's no LTD.

Since Squall x Rinoa, Zidane x Garnet, Tidus x Yuna are the only *main* couples in their games, the standard of proof doesn't need to be as high because there's no grey area. Those couples are inherently canon. The same can't be said for Cloud x Tifa because there is a LTD.

I agree that Cloud and Tifa have a similar romantic confession that other *canon* couples have. But what Cloud and Tifa lack that other *canon* couples have is either undeniable statements by SE or undeniable examples of romantic behavior that firmly establishes a romantic relationship. I already talked about other main FF couples in my response to Ryu. I explained why I believe the other *main* FF couples have more romantic evidence than Cloud and Tifa when you simply compare games to games. Did you read it?

Furthermore, most of your evidence for Cloti is from AC. Most of the other main FF couples do not have a film that they are portrayed in, so the only fair way to compare how SE treats their main couples is by comparing the games *only*. Therefore, all Cloud and Tifa have to compare to the other couples is the HAHW. Expressing mutual feelings =/= romantic relationship.

Since we are never told how they express their mutual feelings, why is it assumed it was anything more than Cloud saying, "I like you and want to take you on a date like I went on with Aerith" and Tifa saying, "Ok! I like you too!" To assume it was this confession of undying love and commitment is a huge assumption, IMO.

But even if we do include AC, here is why I do not believe AC is relevant to establishing Cloud and Tifa as a couple. I included it in my response to Ryu:

“The rumor said it’s an epidemic. I don’t want Marlene to be infected. C’mon, let’s go home.” said Barret with a complete fatherly look on his face.

“Yeah, let’s go home” Cloud agreed.

“Where to?” Barret asked.

“Our suspended reality.”

“What the hell do you mean by that?”

“Our normal lives.”

“And where do we have something like that?”

“We’ll find one.” Cloud looked at Tifa and said, “Right?”

“Yeah!” cried the cheerful Marlene. Tifa nodded too, but just like Barret, she wondered where they had a normal life. ~CoT

This conversation between Cloud, Tifa, Barret, and Marlene demonstrate the idea that even from the very beginning, they each knew they were in it together.

Barret says to everyone, "let's go home". Cloud agrees and Barret asks where this new home will be. Cloud responds and says they'll find a place *together*

This isn't about just Cloud and Tifa attempting to start a new life together. From the very start, the four of them worked hard to establish the New Seventh Heaven. Before Barret leaves for *work*, it is brought up by Marlene and then made certain by Barret that what they've established at Seventh Heaven is what one would consider a family:

I’ll be a nice child of this family!” Marlene said.

Hearing those words, Cloud and Tifa looked at each other. A child of this family?

“I’ll take care of Cloud and Tifa!”

Barret turned round and shouted, “Do your best!” His voice was a little shaky.

“Unite the family’s strength and keep at it!” ~CoT

While Barret is away, Marlene says she will take care of Cloud and Tifa. But what they formed before Barret left was a family that includes all of them. That was their intent from the beginning as I outlined from the passage above. They started a new life *together* when Cloud told Barret that they would find a place to call home *together*. This place turns out to be Seventh Heaven.

Based on these two passages, it is clear that Cloud, Tifa, and Barret formed a family together at Seventh Heaven. That was their intention from the very beginning.

Furthermore, Cloud has a bed in his room, we never see Cloud and Tifa sleeping together, Marlene is Barret's daughter, Tifa admits she doesn't know if Cloud loves her, and Nomura doesn't know if Cloud and Tifa are in a romantic relationship.

Cid and Shera eventually get married, but when we saw them living together in FFVII they were not together romantically.
Living together =/= romantic partners.

But guess what makes Cid and Shera an official romantic relationship? A marriage. Something Cloud and Tifa do not have.

But it does.

>> Narrative + Metatext > Relationship Charts.
>> Relationship charts does not convey the entirety of a character's relationship with other characters. Relationship charts are clarified and reinforced by the source material and other meta stuffs.
>> Cloud and Tifa, while being lovers, are also childhood friends
>> I am bothered by your fixation on relationship charts. Is it a fetish?

I've already answered this.

It's not that it is impossible for Cloud and Tifa to be described as "childhood friends" but then at the same time be *more* than childhood friends.

What I think is problematic is that the FFVII 10th Anniversary Ultimania doesn't include an all encompassing chart. If Cloud and Tifa were described as "childhood friends" in an all encompassing chart, that would be one thing. But what I'm pointing out is that because the FFVII 10th Anniversary Ultimania included TWO charts specifically to show how the relationships changed between FFVII and AC, the fact that there is a lack of EVOLUTION and CHANGE in the way SE describes Cloud and Tifa's relationship tells me that they did not change or evolve between the two time periods.

So I'm not saying that being described as childhood friends means they can't be more than childhood friends. But when there's two charts specifically meant to highlight changes in relationships, and then these two charts do not indicate any change in Cloud and Tifa's relationship between FFVII and AC (and actually use the same description of "childhood friends" for both charts), I believe that is problematic and tells us that no evolution from friends to lovers took place between them on a *canon* basis. If an evolution had taken place, the two charts would have highlighted this evolution. The sad fact is, the charts did not highlight any sort of evolution in their relationship. In fact, SE calls Cloud and Tifa "childhood friends" in both charts, which means no evolution in their one-on-one relationship took place between FFVII and AC.

And although some of the charts might be inconsistent for other relationships, SE has *CONSISTENTLY* referred to Cloud and Tifa as "childhood friends" in every single relationship chart they have ever produced (including the Advent Children chart). Therefore, the inconsistencies for other characters are not relevant because SE has been consistent with Cloud and Tifa's relationship.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

To me, what makes a couple *canon* is not only a confession, but evidence that a romantic relationship develops. That can either come from a statement by SE, a piece of dialogue, or an undeniable example of romantic behavior.

Take note, everyone: "koibito," living together and raising a kid who regards them both as his parents doesn't do the trick for Cloud and Tifa, but a hug does it for Dagger & Zidane, Beatrix & Steiner and Sarah & Ingus. Squall & Rinoa and Tidus & Yuna still look kind of wimpy by comparison with kisses and hugs, but, yeah. Hugs trump cohabitation and raising children.

And, hell, apparently Celes & Locke clinging to one another from the edge of a crumbling tower trumps all that too.

Seriously, the only couple on the "For the One I Love" page with more pointing to a developing relationship than Cloud & Tifa is Rosa & Cecil since we know they got married and had a biological kid. But, as always, Cloud & Tifa has to meet a standard that no other couple does.

I agree that Cloud and Tifa have a similar romantic confession that other *canon* couples have. But what Cloud and Tifa lack that other *canon* couples have is either undeniable statements by SE or undeniable examples of romantic behavior that firmly establishes a romantic relationship.

I hope I'm not the only one confused as to how Beatrix & Steiner and Dagger & Zidane have more "undeniable examples" than Cloud & Tifa. I'm especially curious as to how Ingus & Sarah and Celes & Locke achieve this.

Furthermore, SE never tells us exactly how Cloud and Tifa expressed their mutual feelings, why is it assumed it was anything more than Cloud saying, "I like you and want to take you on a date like I went on with Aerith" and Tifa saying, "Ok! I like you too!"

Apparently Cloud and Tifa developed telepathy on the spot, seeing as "feelings that could not be expressed with words" doesn't leave a whole lot of other options.




On the topic of relationship charts, I just remembered that the AC Prologue book has a fold-out poster with Kadaj, Yazoo and Loz on one side; a "Human Relations of Final Fantasy VII Advent Children" chart on the other.

I took some pics:
http://i.imgur.com/7IAFr4K.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/P2PGaCU.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/lOBNVwZ.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/aRqy7C7.jpg

Between Cloud and Sphiroth:
"Connection from the past"
過去からの因縁

From Sephiroth to his Shinentai:
"Influencing?"
影響?

From the Shinentai to Sephiroth:
"Perceive his presence?"
存在を感知?

From Kadaj to Cloud:
"Regard as an enemy"
敵視

Between Rufus and Kadaj:
"Hostility"
対立関係

Between Rufus and Cloud:
"Former enemies"
過去に対立

Between Shin-Ra and Tifa:
"Mutual interests with regard to Kadaj and co."
カダージュたちに対して利害が一致

From Cloud to AVALANCHE:
"Comrades fought alongside 2 years ago"
2年前ともに戦った仲間

From Cloud to the Seventh Heaven family (Tifa, Denzel and Marlene):
"Living with"
共同生活していた

 

[BlankBeat]

Seriously, the only couple on the "For the One I Love" page with more pointing to a developing relationship than Cloud & Tifa is Rosa & Cecil since we know they got married and had a biological kid. But, as always, Cloud & Tifa has to meet a standard that no other couple does.

1. Since the CxA date is canon because of other evidence besides the FTOIL page, then the fact that the Cloud x Aerith date is pictured on the FTOIL page makes it just as relevant as the HAHW scene being on there. In other words, the caption on the FTOIL page means nothing because the Cloud x Aerith date is canon due to other evidence regardless of the caption.

Therefore, Cloud is pictured on the FTOIL page with *two* heroines in two *canon* scenes of romance (ie: "A hero that wavers between two heroines")

Cloud is the only hero to be pictured with two heroines in two canon versions of romantic scenes.

This reinforces my entire point that these two scenes show us that Cloud *loves* both Aerith and Tifa because both of them are pictured on the FTOIL page with Cloud in two *canon* versions of *romantic* scenes. Therefore, the LTD is up to interpretation.

2. Why do you assume that living together = romantic relationship?

Cid and Shera lived together in FFVII, yet they weren't in a romantic relationship. However, they obviously had mutual feelings for one another because they eventually got married.

Though the difference between the two relationships is that Cloud and Tifa never get married.

3. A lot of your examples are not of *main* FF couples. Since the main characters relationship always gets more attention, it is only fair to compare relationships of equal status and attention. Therefore, you can only compare Cloud x Tifa to Squall x Rinoa, Zidane x Garnet, Tidus x Yuna, etc.

And the fact is, within the games only, Cloud and Tifa lack clear romantic evidence that is provided for all of the other main canon couples.

4. No other main *canon* couples have films. Therefore, the only fair way to compare Cloud and Tifa with other canon couples is to compare games *only*.

5. Even if we include AC, that is not clear evidence that mutual feelings turned into a romantic relationship. I outlined above that even though it's clear that Cid and Shera develop a romantic relationship eventually, they were not in a romantic relationship while living together in FFVII. The fact that you continue to insist that living together automatically means romantic relationship is disingenuous, especially when we consider Cid and Shera who are a *canon* couple.

Furthermore, unlike Cid and Shera, Cloud and Tifa do *NOT* get married. Therefore, there is nothing even remotely close to the marriage between Cid and Shera that proves Cloud and Tifa are in a romantic relationship despite the HAHW scene taking place.

6. The reason the standards might seem higher for Cloud and Tifa is because FFVII is one of the few FF's with a love triangle. Therefore, the evidence has to be even stronger. When talking about other main FF couples that don't have an LTD, the evidence doesn't need to be as strong because there's no LTD. There's no "grey area" for the other couples.

7. You never answered why Cloud and Tifa's relationship did not progress beyond "childhood friends" between the time of FFVII to the time of AC even though that was SE's designed intent behind including both the FFVII chart and the AC chart.

The two charts do not show any changing or evolving for Cloud and Tifa's relationship because they are described as "childhood friends" in both chats. Why was there no evolution between their relationship even though that was the whole point of including two charts?

All of this proves the HAHW scene did *NOT* lead to a romantic relationship between Cloud and Tifa.

8. You never answered that while the relationship charts aren't always consistent, they have consistently labeled Cloud and Tifa as "childhood friends" in every single relationship chart. This means that although SE is sometimes inconsistent with other relationships, they have been consistent with Cloud and Tifa's relationship. Meaning that your argument of inconsistency does not apply to Cloud and Tifa' s relationship.

If the relationship charts show an inconsistency with a certain relationship, that inconsistency is for that relationship only. That does not mean, however, that SE is inconsistent with every relationship shown in the relationship charts.

You are trying to paint these relationship charts with a broad brush because they discredit Cloti. But if you can't show how the "inconsistency" argument applies to Cloud and Tifa specifically, your point is not relevant.

In other words, you have to explain on a one-on-one basis why the relationship chart is not relevant for each relationship. You can't simply throw the baby out with the bath water and say the relationship charts as a whole aren't valid, especially when SE has consistently described Cloud and Tifa as "childhood friends" in every single relationship chart. This seems very odd for the *canon* couple -- especially when SE included two charts to specifically highlight evolutions in relationships between FFVII and AC.

From Cloud to the Seventh Heaven family (Tifa, Denzel and Marlene):
"Living with"
共同生活していた

Notice how it says "living with". Cloud is not "living with" Barret *because* he is off doing missions. Being away on missions does not mean Barret is not apart of the Seventh Heaven family.

EDIT: Does a Mom or Dad who travels for work mean they are not apart of their family anymore? Furthermore, when he hears his "family" is being attacked, he rushes back to defend them.

Also -- I'm talking about how Cloud and Tifa's one-on-one relationship has been described by SE, which has consistently been, "childhood friends".

This is why Barret is apart of the Seventh Heaven family:

“The rumor said it’s an epidemic. I don’t want Marlene to be infected. C’mon, let’s go home.” said Barret with a complete fatherly look on his face.

“Yeah, let’s go home” Cloud agreed.

“Where to?” Barret asked.

“Our suspended reality.”

“What the hell do you mean by that?”

“Our normal lives.”

“And where do we have something like that?”

“We’ll find one.” Cloud looked at Tifa and said, “Right?”

“Yeah!” cried the cheerful Marlene. Tifa nodded too, but just like Barret, she wondered where they had a normal life." ~CoT

This conversation between Cloud, Tifa, Barret, and Marlene demonstrate the idea that even from the very beginning, they each knew they were in it together.

Barret says to everyone, "let's go home". Cloud agrees and Barret asks where this new home will be. Cloud responds and says they'll find a place *together*

This isn't about just Cloud and Tifa attempting to start a new life together. From the very start, the four of them worked hard to establish the New Seventh Heaven.

Before Barret leaves for *work*, it is brought up by Marlene and then made certain by Barret that what they've established at Seventh Heaven is what one would consider a family:

"I’ll be a nice child of this family!” Marlene said.

Hearing those words, Cloud and Tifa looked at each other. A child of this family?

“I’ll take care of Cloud and Tifa!”

Barret turned round and shouted, “Do your best!” His voice was a little shaky.

“Unite the family’s strength and keep at it!” ~CoT

While Barret is away, Marlene says she will take care of Cloud and Tifa. But what they formed before Barret left was a family that includes all of them. That was their intent from the beginning as I outlined from the passage above. They started a new life *together* when Cloud told Barret that they would find a place to call home *together*. This place turns out to be Seventh Heaven.

Based on these two passages, it is clear that Cloud, Tifa, and Barret formed a family together at Seventh Heaven. That was their intention from the very beginning.

Furthermore, Cloud has a bed in his room, we never see Cloud and Tifa sleeping together, Marlene is Barret's daughter, Tifa admits she doesn't know if Cloud loves her, and Nomura doesn't know if Cloud and Tifa are in a romantic relationship.

 

[Danseru-kun]

6. The reason the standards might seem higher for Cloud and Tifa is because FFVII is one of the few FF's with a love triangle. Therefore, the evidence has to be even stronger. When talking about other main FF couples that don't have an LTD, the evidence doesn't need to be as strong because there's no LTD. There's no "grey area" for the other couples.

This is a big fallacy, a love triangle doesn't make less of evidences. Cloti has enough evidences as other canon couples, sometime even more but how come Cloud possibly loving another woman undo these facts?

We've already given you Cloti facts, and no amount of women involved in Cloud's life makes less of these facts.

And for the nth time, everybody in this thread thinks Clerith as a valid interpretation, but like we have always stated there is interpretation and there is canon. You cannot argue to us that the LTD is up to interpretation then tell us Cloti is not canon using only your interpretation. We use facts and standards that are fair. Cloti met the standards as other canon couples in FF therefore it's canon. If Clerith can, then it's also canon.

 

[Dashell]

Furthermore, Cloud has a bed in his room, we never see Cloud and Tifa sleeping together, Marlene is Barret's daughter, Tifa admits she doesn't know if Cloud loves her, and Nomura doesn't know if Cloud and Tifa are in a romantic relationship.

I see we've come full circle

Can you at least come up with new arguments? D:

Tifa admits she doesn't know if Cloud loves her,

So how is this a point for Clerith? IF he loved Aerith, she should know he doesn't love her, right?

From Cloud to the Seventh Heaven family (Tifa, Denzel and Marlene):
"Living with"
共同生活していた

LIES! He was living in the church

 

[BlankBeat]

I'd really like to bring this up because the FTOIL page is being brought up again.

My entire point has been that the question is "who does Cloud love?" *NOT* "which couple expressed mutual feelings?".

I know Cloti's say that because the caption on the FTOIL page does not say anything about Cloud and Aerith's date, it means that the Cloud x Aerith date being pictured is irrelevant. Cloti's say it could have simply been a "placeholder".

But if other evidence has canonized the Cloud x Aerith date, it is irrelevant that the caption doesn't specifically mention the Cloud x Aerith date. We already know their date is canon, and it's also pictured on the FTOIL page. That's all we need to know.

To me, this makes the Cloud x Aerith date being pictured on the FTOIL page just as relevant as the HAHW scene. Both scenes pictured are the *canon* versions. In other words, the caption on the FTOIL page doesn't matter because the Cloud x Aerith date is canon due to other evidence regardless.

Therefore, Cloud is pictured on the FTOIL page with *two* heroines in two *canon* scenes of romance (ie: "A hero that wavers between two heroines")

The FTOIL page tells us that this means Cloud has love for both women based on Cloud x Aerith's date and the HAHW scene being pictured. Both of these scenes are deemed canon *AND* pictured on the FTOIL page.

Furthermore, Cloud is the only hero to be pictured with two heroines in two canon versions of two romantic scenes.

Since the question has always been "Who does Cloud love?" *NOT* "Which couple expresses mutual feelings?*, and the "For the One I Love" page shows one *canon* scene of romance between Cloud and Aerith, and another *canon* scene of romance between Cloud and Tifa, this means that Cloud loves both Aerith and Tifa because he is pictured in two canon scenes of romance with two women on the "For the One I Love" page.

This is a big fallacy, a love triangle doesn't make less of evidences. Cloti has enough evidences as other canon couples, sometime even more but how come Cloud possibly loving another woman undo these facts?

In the absence of an LTD, there is no grey area. We know the other couples are canon just by virtue of there not being an LTD. But since FFVII has an LTD, it means there is a grey area that requires more proof.

What I also said is that we can only compare Cloud and Tifa to other *main* FF couples because SE obviously gives more attention and depth to the *main* couples. By pointing out a *canon* couple of lesser status and saying they don't have as much romantic evidence as Cloud x Tifa is not a fair comparison. So we can only compare Cloud x Tifa to Squall x Rinoa, Tidus x Yuna, etc. That is the only way to have a fair comparison.

In addition, I also said that because most FF couples do not have a film, we can only compare what is found between the couples in their respective games. Then I went on to explain why even if you include AC, it still doesn't mean Cloud x Tifa are in a romantic relationship.

And for the nth time, everybody in this thread thinks Clerith as a valid interpretation, but like we have always stated there is interpretation and there is canon. You cannot argue to us that the LTD is up to interpretation then tell us Cloti is not canon using only your interpretation. We use facts and standards that are fair. Cloti met the standards as other canon couples in FF therefore it's canon. If Clerith can, then it's also canon.

I'm not entirely sure what you are saying here. I believe both couples have evidence and both *interpretations* are valid. But I do not believe that either pairing has been deemed *canon* by SE. What I take issue with is when Cloti's say their interpretation has been made canon by SE.

Also -- do you have any answers for me?

You brought up that Cecil and Rosa only have favor arrows despite them getting married at the end. What you fail to realize is that Cloud and Tifa have NO mutual favor arrows and don't get married. So, even if the relationship chart doesn't tell us that Cecil and Rosa are a romantic couple, we have unequivocal proof that they are a romantic couple because they get married. Cloud and Tifa never get married. That's the difference.

Also -- mutual favor arrows tell us that Cecil and Rosa are romantically involved. Cloud and Tifa do not have ANY mutual favor arrows in any of the charts. That's yet another difference between Cecil x Rosa and Cloud x Tifa.

You brought up Lulu and Wakka not being described as romantic partners in the FFX relationship chart. But many of the relationship charts for FFVII came out after AC, however, that doesn't mean the charts were necessarily talking about both FFVII and AC.

The FFX chart simply says FFX. It does not say FFX compilation. Nor does it say FFX and FFX-2. Assuming that it is talking about both because it came out after FFX-2 is a HUGE assumption, especially when nothing indicates that it is talking about anything more than FFX. In fact, all it says is FFX.

Is there anything on the FFX chart that says anything about information that was given to us in FFX-2? Until you can show me where anything on that chart refers to FFX-2, you are simply assuming that the chart is talking about both FFX and FFX-2.

In addition, Lulu and Wakka get married and have a child together *after* FFX is over. Cloud and Tifa do not have anything remotely similar to that. Therefore, even though the relationship chart doesn't say Lulu and Wakka are in a romantic relationship, we have undeniable evidence that they are, in fact, in a romantic relationship. Cloud and Tifa have no such undeniable evidence. That's the difference.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

In the absence of an LTD, there is no grey area. We know the other couples are canon just by virtue of there not being an LTD. But since FFVII has an LTD, it means there is a grey area that requires more proof.

To be perfectly frank with you, that's ridiculous.

You speak as though Cloud's affections exist along a spectrum with Aerith at one end and Tifa at the other, with each point brought up bringing him closer to one and taking him further from the other. That's not how affection works and it isn't how you should be reading the material.

Nevermind that Cloud isn't obligated to end up with either of them at any point. Both women have their own "scale," so to speak, and neither woman's scale affects the other's.

Cloud can be in love with one of them, live with her, raise a child with her, and the other -- whom he can't do those same things with for obvious reasons -- will still occupy an especial place in his heart 'til the day he dies. That's how affections actually work.

You don't look at Rachel and Celes in FFVI and ask, "Well, which did Locke do X for? Which did he do Y with? Which did he say Z to?" He loves them both, has done remarkable things for both, has shared precious memories with both, and has said tender things to both. Again, he loves both.

Though -- and this is ironic for what will be obvious reasons -- his affections for one became bogged down in guilt, and he was unwilling to let himself move on with the other until the woman he had a sense of guilt over told him it was okay to go on with his life.

Understand that love is not a zero-sum game. Just as a parent need not reserve all their love for one child, a person isn't restricted to feeling romantic inklings for only one person either.

 

[BlankBeat]

Unanswered points/questions for those that support Cloud x Tifa:

1. The caption under Cloud and Aerith's date on the FTOIL page is irrelevant because we have other evidence that canonizes their date. Therefore, Cloud is the only hero shown with two heroines in two romantic scenes that are both canon.

Remember, the question is not, "Which couple expresses mutual feelings?", the question is, "Who does Cloud love?"
It's irrelevant that Aerith doesn't technically know Cloud's feelings because that's not relevant in answering the question, "Who does Cloud love?"

Cloud is pictured with both of his official love interests in canon versions of romantic scenes on a page titled "For The One I Love". Seems pretty cut and dry to me.

When we consider that SE has used the word "koibito" for both pairings and the fact that Cloud wavers between two heroines, it becomes even more clear that the LTD is up to interpretation.

2. Cid and Shera live together in FFVII but are not in a romantic relationship. To me, it seems as though they have always had a romantic attraction towards one another because they eventually get married. But they do not get married until *after* FFVII. This means that while Cid and Shera were living together during FFVII they were not in a romantic relationship. Continuing to say that Cloud and Tifa living together in AC is unequivocal proof that they are in a romantic relationship [especially when Cloud has a bed in his room and Tifa doesn't know if Cloud loves her] is disingenuous.

3. Saying that canon couples not comprised of the hero and heroine don't have as much romantic proof as Cloud and Tifa is not a fair comparison. Since the main characters relationship always receives more attention, development, and depth, it is only fair to compare relationships of equal status. Therefore, you can only compare Cloud x Tifa to Squall x Rinoa, Zidane x Garnet, Tidus x Yuna, etc. And the fact is, Cloud and Tifa lack clear romantic evidence that is provided for all of the other main canon couples.

Cloud and Tifa have the first part required for a *canon* status because they express mutual feelings like other canon couples. But they do not have the second part that other main canon couples have -- undeniable proof of a romantic *relationship*.

Expressing mutual feelings =/= romantic relationship.

4. No other main *canon* couples have films. Therefore, the only fair way to compare Cloud and Tifa with other canon couples is to compare what happens in the games *only*.

5. Cloud and Tifa are described as "childhood friends" in both the FFVII chart and the AC chart. The two charts do not show any evolution in their relationship between FFVII and AC. Why was there no change in their relationship descriptions even though that was the whole point of including two charts?

6. I do not disagree that Cloud and Tifa can be described as "childhood friends" but also be *more* than "childhood friends". But that doesn't explain why when given the opportunity to show how their relationship changed between FFVII and AC, SE used the exact same relationship description of "childhood friends".

Remember, this was not an all encompassing chart. SE included two charts to specifically show how relationships changed between FFVII and AC. SE did not show Cloud and Tifa's relationship growing beyond that of "childhood friends".

7. Although the relationship charts are sometimes inconsistent, SE has consistently labeled Cloud and Tifa as "childhood friends" in every single relationship chart. This means that although SE is sometimes inconsistent with other relationships, they have been consistent with Cloud and Tifa's relationship. This means the argument of inconsistency does not apply to Cloud and Tifa's relationship.

Therefore, if the relationship charts show an inconsistency with a certain relationship, that inconsistency is for that relationship only. That does not mean, however, that SE is inconsistent with every relationship. Trying to paint these relationship charts with a broad brush because they discredit Cloti is very telling.

If you can't show how the "inconsistency" argument applies directly to Cloud and Tifa specifically, your point is not relevant.

8. Do most main *canon* couples have mutual favor arrows? Why don't Cloud and Tifa have mutual favor arrows if *most* main canon couples have them?

9. It was brought up that Cecil and Rosa are not described as being together in the relationship chart despite getting married at the end of the game. However, unlike Cloud and Tifa, Cecil and Rosa *do* have mutual favor arrows. And even if the relationship chart doesn't tell us that Cecil and Rosa are a romantic couple, we have unequivocal proof that they are a romantic couple because they get married. Cloud and Tifa never get married. That's the difference.

10. It was brought up that Lulu and Wakka are not described as romantic partners in the FFX relationship chart. However, it is worth noting that they do not get married and have a child until after FFX ends.

So when we consider that many of the relationship charts for FFVII came out after AC, but weren't necessarily talking about both FFVII and AC, we don't know for sure that the FFX chart is talking about both FFX and FFX-2.

The FFX chart simply says FFX. It does not say FFX compilation, nor does it say anything about FFX-2. Assuming that it is talking about both because it came out after FFX-2 is a huge assumption, especially when nothing indicates that it is talking about anything more than FFX. In fact, all it says is FFX.

Furthermore, is there anything on the FFX relationship chart that says anything about information that was given to us in FFX-2? Until you can show me where anything on that chart refers to FFX-2, you are simply assuming that the chart is talking about both FFX and FFX-2.

In addition, Lulu and Wakka get married and have a child together. Cloud and Tifa do not have anything remotely similar to that. Therefore, even though the relationship chart doesn't say Lulu and Wakka are in a romantic relationship, we have undeniable evidence that they are in a romantic relationship because they are married. Cloud and Tifa do not have undeniable evidence. That's the difference.

11. Funny, Cecil x Rosa/Lulu x Wakka are being brought up, yet both couples are shown getting *married*. To be honest, bringing up *married* couples hurts Cloud x Tifa.

12. Since SE never tells us exactly how Cloud and Tifa expressed their mutual feelings, why is it assumed it was anything more than Cloud saying, "I like you and want to take you on a date like I went on with Aerith" and Tifa saying, "Ok! I like you too!" To assume it was this confession of undying love and commitment is a huge assumption, IMO.

13. It was pointed out that one of the relationship charts show that Cloud is "living with" Tifa, Denzel, and Marlene. However, the reason Barret is not included in this is because he is away on missions, therefore Barret is not technically "living with" Cloud. But does a parent who travels for work suddenly not become apart of their family anymore?

Furthermore, it is stated that Barret rushes back to defend his "family".

14. This is why Barret is apart of the Seventh Heaven family:

“The rumor said it’s an epidemic. I don’t want Marlene to be infected. C’mon, let’s go home.” said Barret with a complete fatherly look on his face.

“Yeah, let’s go home” Cloud agreed.

“Where to?” Barret asked.

“Our suspended reality.”

“What the hell do you mean by that?”

“Our normal lives.”

“And where do we have something like that?”

“We’ll find one.” Cloud looked at Tifa and said, “Right?”

“Yeah!” cried the cheerful Marlene. Tifa nodded too, but just like Barret, she wondered where they had a normal life." ~CoT

This conversation between Cloud, Tifa, Barret, and Marlene demonstrate the idea that even from the very beginning, they each knew they were in it together.

Barret says to everyone, "let's go home". Cloud agrees and Barret asks where this new home will be. Cloud responds by saying they will find a place to call home *together*.

This isn't about just Cloud and Tifa attempting to start a new life together. From the very start, the four of them worked hard to establish the New Seventh Heaven.

Before Barret leaves for *work*, it is brought up by Marlene and then made certain by Barret that what they've established at Seventh Heaven is what one would consider a family:

"I’ll be a nice child of this family!” Marlene said.

Hearing those words, Cloud and Tifa looked at each other. A child of this family?

“I’ll take care of Cloud and Tifa!”

Barret turned round and shouted, “Do your best!” His voice was a little shaky.

“Unite the family’s strength and keep at it!” ~CoT

While Barret is away, Marlene says she will take care of Cloud and Tifa. But what they formed before Barret left was a family that includes all of them. That was their intent from the beginning.

All of them started a new life *together* when Cloud told Barret that they would find a place to call home *together*. This home turned out to be Seventh Heaven.

Based on these two passages, it is clear that Cloud, Tifa, and Barret formed a family together at Seventh Heaven. That was their intention from the very beginning.

--------------------

To be perfectly frank with you, that's ridiculous.

A love triangle where a hero wavers between two heroines means that two pairings are possible. This means that evidence will be provided for *both* pairings. In order to declare that one couple is canon over the other, you have to go above and beyond a normal standard of proof. There has to be compelling and undeniable evidence that one pairing is canon and the other isn't. But in the absence of a love triangle, you do not have to determine which couple has stronger evidence because there is only one couple to pick from.

 

[I Am Not Me]

Gosh, I love this thread!

Cloud is pictured with both of his official love interests in canon versions of romantic scenes on a page titled "For The One I Love". Seems pretty cut and dry to me.

This kind of argument only ever seems cut and dry to Cleriths and anti-Clotis who are desperate to look for some kind of work around so they won't have to accept the fact that Cloud and Tifa are shown and captioned ALONGSIDE the other canon romantic couples of the FF series.

Spoiler

Then there's the Cloud and Aerith date in a lonely corner of the page with the caption "oh guys don't forget, Cloud dated others too". I mean, they didn't even give the decency to name Aerith, you know?

It completely ignores all the text within the page in favor of pictures. If they wanted to make a point using only pictures, why put captions at all?

You know the only thing the inclusion of the picture proves? That Clerith is a valid interpretation. They made a point to tell us that Cloud can go on dates with other people, and since Clerith date is the most iconic (and makes most sense, imo) they would obviously use that picture. Yes, also because Aerith is a love interest. It does not disprove Cloti as canonically in love with each other though.

Don't even try to work around that one because you specifically made red and bolded text to emphasize just how "cut and dry" that logic supposedly is.

 

[Strangelove]

i think they used that date picture to throw c/a fans a bone

does anyone else remember that argument

that square would throw clotis meaningless and unimportant 'bones' so they would keep on buying things, all the while intending for clerith to be the true couple which was shown through Evidence like cameo appearances in other games or soda cans or something

 

[Danseru-kun]

@ Blankbeat

All the points you put are actually answered a few times already in this thread, honestly it's either you didn't read all the posts, or you forgot about them. (Come to think of it some of the points you brought are kinda new (but useless nonetheless,) so they aren't really unanswered.)

The people in this thread are getting annoyed because you are the one not answering questions and arguments (like what Marlene's sins are) then you also do not answer to many counter arguments. Then you think we're the ones who have "unanswered points?"

Before I posted in this thread last year I read all the past 100 pages to make sure I'm not repeating things. I do not expect the same of you and repeats are inevitable but I've watched you debate since you posted here the first time and you are the one who does not answer all rebuttals addressed to you and all you have posted are already answered.

If I have patience I'm going to try and repeat things or probably just write another tumblr article. You frustrate all of us.

 

[BlankBeat]

@ Blankbeat

All the points you put are actually answered a few times already in this thread, honestly it's either you didn't read all the posts, or you forgot about them. (Come to think of it some of the points you brought are kinda new (but useless nonetheless,) so they aren't really unanswered.)

The people in this thread are getting annoyed because you are the one not answering questions and arguments (like what Marlene's sins are) then you also do not answer to many counter arguments. Then you think we're the ones who have "unanswered points?"

Before I posted in this thread last year I read all the past 100 pages to make sure I'm not repeating things. I do not expect the same of you and repeats are inevitable but I've watched you debate since you posted here the first time and you are the one who does not answer all rebuttals addressed to you and all you have posted are already answered.

If I have patience I'm going to try and repeat things or probably just write another tumblr article. You frustrate all of us.

1. I did answer the Marlene sins question HERE

2. The other argument I was frequently accused of not answering was regarding the "undying feeling" quote which I answered HERE

Maybe you missed those responses? I'm not sure. But just because you either didn't acknowledge my responses or you simply don't like my answers, doesn't mean I didn't respond.

I admit I haven't answered every single post that has been directed towards me. But such is the nature of the beast when I'm outnumbered 50 to 1. I do the best I can.

Furthermore, numerous members have not responded to all of my posts, either. Why am I held to a different standard? Do you have a *double* standard?

Plus...you, yourself, have yet to answer my questions about Wakka x Lulu and Cecil x Rosa. So please, step off your high horse.

PS: Most of the points/questions in my previous post have *NOT* been answered.

 

[BlankBeat]

Gosh, I love this thread!

This kind of argument only ever seems cut and dry to Cleriths and anti-Clotis who are desperate to look for some kind of work around so they won't have to accept the fact that Cloud and Tifa are shown and captioned ALONGSIDE the other canon romantic couples of the FF series.

Spoiler

Then there's the Cloud and Aerith date in a lonely corner of the page with the caption "oh guys don't forget, Cloud dated others too". I mean, they didn't even give the decency to name Aerith, you know?

It completely ignores all the text within the page in favor of pictures. If they wanted to make a point using only pictures, why put captions at all?

You know the only thing the inclusion of the picture proves? That Clerith is a valid interpretation. They made a point to tell us that Cloud can go on dates with other people, and since Clerith date is the most iconic (and makes most sense, imo) they would obviously use that picture. Yes, also because Aerith is a love interest. It does not disprove Cloti as canonically in love with each other though.

Don't even try to work around that one because you specifically made red and bolded text to emphasize just how "cut and dry" that logic supposedly is.

The fact that SE wanted to talk about as many romantic scenes as possible on the FTOIL page makes complete sense. By picturing the *canon* date and then discussing that there are 4 possible dates allows SE to achieve two goals -- they are able to give preferential treatment to the *canon* date because it's pictured, but they are also able to discuss as many romantic scenes as possible on the FTOIL page.

However, there is only *ONE* version of the Highwind scene that is appropriate to talk about and include on the FTOIL page, and that version is the HA version. The reason why the LA version is nowhere to be seen or mentioned on the FTOIL page is because it is not appropriate for it to be included. Why would the LA version be included? It's not romantic.

But even though the LA version was not appropriate to include on the FTOIL page, SE still includes a reference page that you can flip to that says there are *TWO* versions of the Highwind scene that depend on affection points.

But the bottom line is -- there are four romantic dates which are all referenced and represented on the FTOIL page (as they should be). But because there is only one romantic version of the Highwind scene, only the HA Highwind scene was referenced on the FTOIIL page.

But if you could get the HA Highwind scene with different characters (as you can for the date), you better believe that would have been included on the FTOIL page.

SE obviously pictured Cloud and Aerith because we are meant to apply the FTOIL more specifically to their *canon* date.

This is what was included in the "LTD over" article when commenting on the CxA date caption:
"Nothing so amazing, no, all it tells us is that the date itself is up to player control, so no one version is ‘official,’ but the next section is not only what hopefully will make for a swift end to the LTD, but also confirms a scenario I have been arguing in favor of for quite a number of years."

But my argument is that despite the caption not saying which version is official, we have evidence that the CxA date *IS* canon. Therefore, the caption is irrelevant.

The caption was simply there to represent *ALL* the dates on the FTOIL page because *ALL* the dates are romantic (ie: because they are *DATES*). But SE obviously pictured Cloud and Aerith's date because it is the *canon* date, and because we are meant to apply the FTOIL page more directly to their date.

Again -- the only reason one version of the Highwind scene was included on the FTOIL page is because it would have been inappropriate to discuss or include the LA version on a page titled "For The One I Love". But if you could get different characters for the HA Highwind scene, you better believe that would have been included on the FTOIL page.

The date simply can't be compared to the Highwind scene (or any other romantic scene on that page, for that matter) because you can get four characters for the date, whereas there's only one character you can get during the HA Highwind scene. So in order to include all the romantic dates on the FTOIL page while also giving special treatment to the *canon* date, SE mentioned all the dates in the caption and pictured Cloud x Aerith's date.

On the contrary, only the HA Highwind scene was included on the FTOIL page because that is the only appropriate version to include. Which is exactly why SE lists a reference page on the FTOIL page so people can find out that the HA version is not the *only* version, it is simply the only appropriate version to include on the FTOIL page.

But just because the caption under Cloud and Aerith's date doesn't mention anything about them specifically doesn't mean their date isn't canon. And it also doesn't mean that the Cloud x Aerith date doesn't tell us the exact same thing that the HA Highwind scene does, which is that Cloud has feelings of love for Aerith.

Again -- if you could get different characters for the HA Highwind scene, that would have been specified on the FTOIL page just like all the dates were.

 

[Farron]

Hiya for the past two weeks maybe longer I have been reading through this thread and I honestly can't believe how everybody here is treating Junko and Blankbeat, guests who have polity came in and just wanted a friendly debate only to be called liars just because they don't ship Cloti and see something else as canon.

Not only is it extremely rude but it's also really callous. Junko and BB have done nothing wrong. They just came in these forums to debate a video game ship with everybody here; only to be called shocking things like liars and what they're saying is dumb and stupid.

It would be tough to reply to like more than one person at once with tons of TL;DR posts and yet you keep on jumping on them for missing things. Wait a while for them to catch up ? It's not that difficult.

There's a reasons why Clerith's hate this place and why these forums have a hugely bad rep, because they come in and get called " liars " or what they believe in is stupid.

Also Cloti is "fact " and " Not Opinion " and if somebody disagrees with Cloti not being " fact " they are the sins of the earth ? You are not Square-Enix, you no NOT work for Square and you did NOT create this game. It is up to SE the main company to say whether Cloti or Clerith is fact or Canon, not you. If you all believe that you are so above the main bloody company then you really need to take a seat and step down.

I apologized if I sound angry, that's because I am. In fact I'm boiling with anger. If you all see Cloti is canon that is fine; but not everybody does. I hate the FFVII LTD so much. I don't understand why we can't just ship whatever we desire Cloud to be with and just say " Okay, that's cool man " if somebody ships the man with somebody else, even if it's bloody Sephiroth.

At the moment I feel like most of the members here are terrible shippers, and if there was some sort of school for shipping I wouldn't mind using money to take you all there. Ever heard of " respect what other people ship " ? No. Don't call them bloody liars or that they're not factual just because some FF VII fans don't see Cloud having a future relationship with Miss Boobs.

If you see Cloti as "fact " and the "truth " that's fine, though not everybody does, so please stop forcing down your preferred ship down BB and Junko's throats. Do you know how many Cleriths who debate here come out feeling really hurt and extremely internet bullied ? Quite a shocking number.

And if you're thinking " Oh if they can't handle the heat they shouldn't of come into the kitchen " Debating can be fun and it can be a intelligent conversation believe it or not. Not internet bullying or trying to down other people's ship with bombs.

Thanks for reading this. You can insult me, gang up or me as much you want. Whatever. I'm just so sick of seeing Junk and BB being ganged up here and being treated like they're worthless just because they see Clerith as canon instead of Cloti.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Hallelujah: If that's what you think happened, then you missed significant portions of this discussion or BlankBeat's past involvement in LTD discussions (though this one should be sufficient).

By the way, Junko hasn't been called a liar. Also, BlankBeat has been repeatedly caught using double-standards and persists in making claims about numerous things that he has been shown are unequivocally false.


BlankBeat:
Not because I wish to engage with you, but just to get you to stop saying you haven't gotten a response to this stuff:

The caption under Cloud and Aerith's date on the FTOIL page is irrelevant because we have other evidence that canonizes their date. Therefore, Cloud is the only hero shown with two heroines in two romantic scenes that are both canon.

Remember, the question is not, "Which couple expresses mutual feelings?", the question is, "Who does Cloud love?"
It's irrelevant that Aerith doesn't technically know Cloud's feelings because that's not relevant in answering the question, "Who does Cloud love?"

He loves -- or at least loved -- both romantically. This has been answered before. Next question.

Cloud is pictured with both of his official love interests in canon versions of romantic scenes on a page titled "For The One I Love". Seems pretty cut and dry to me.

When we consider that SE has used the word "koibito" for both pairings and the fact that Cloud wavers between two heroines, it becomes even more clear that the LTD is up to interpretation.

"He loves both" is not the same as "up to interpretation." He simply loves both, just as Locke loves both Rachel and Celes.

Cid and Shera live together in FFVII but are not in a romantic relationship. To me, it seems as though they have always had a romantic attraction towards one another because they eventually get married. But they do not get married until *after* FFVII. This means that while Cid and Shera were living together during FFVII they were not in a romantic relationship. Continuing to say that Cloud and Tifa living together in AC is unequivocal proof that they are in a romantic relationship [especially when Cloud has a bed in his room and Tifa doesn't know if Cloud loves her] is disingenuous.

No one has said the fact of them living together is, by itself, proof of anything.

What's disingenuous is you calling that room -- which lacks privacy and furniture, and is only ever referred to as an office -- Cloud's bedroom. Likewise on pretending that insecure people in relationships don't ask "Do you love me?"

These things have also been said before. Next question.

aying that canon couples not comprised of the hero and heroine don't have as much romantic proof as Cloud and Tifa is not a fair comparison. Since the main characters relationship always receives more attention, development, and depth, it is only fair to compare relationships of equal status. Therefore, you can only compare Cloud x Tifa to Squall x Rinoa, Zidane x Garnet, Tidus x Yuna, etc. And the fact is, Cloud and Tifa lack clear romantic evidence that is provided for all of the other main canon couples.

Cloud and Tifa have the first part required for a *canon* status because they express mutual feelings like other canon couples. But they do not have the second part that other main canon couples have -- undeniable proof of a romantic *relationship*.

Other than Beatrix & Steiner, only main characters have been mentioned for comparison -- and that couple is still on the "For the One I Love" page, so they're fair game.

You're the one who has failed to provide evidence of your claim here as to how Celes & Locke, Zidane & Dagger and Sarah & Ingus have more "undeniable evidence" of a continuing relationship post-game.

Expressing mutual feelings =/= romantic relationship.

You accept that it does for a bunch of other couples.

No other main *canon* couples have films. Therefore, the only fair way to compare Cloud and Tifa with other canon couples is to compare what happens in the games *only*.

Bullshit. The games are already highly cinematic media, and you reference Advent Children all the time.

Cloud and Tifa are described as "childhood friends" in both the FFVII chart and the AC chart. The two charts do not show any evolution in their relationship between FFVII and AC. Why was there no change in their relationship descriptions even though that was the whole point of including two charts?

You have a grand total of zero evidence that this was the point of including multiple charts. You're just claiming it without any basis and ignoring the bits that don't fit your claim, such as the charts for BC, LO and CC still calling the two "childhood friends" when they were teenagers with verified romantic interest in one another -- oh, and that the Dirge chart that doesn't describe them as anything.

And now you're ignoring the AC Prologue chart that does describe them differently.

Not to mention how selective you're being when the charts are applied to Aerith.

I do not disagree that Cloud and Tifa can be described as "childhood friends" but also be *more* than "childhood friends". But that doesn't explain why when given the opportunity to show how their relationship changed between FFVII and AC, SE used the exact same relationship description of "childhood friends".

Remember, this was not an all encompassing chart.

No, you remember it.

SE included two charts to specifically show how relationships changed between FFVII and AC.

You're making this up.

Although the relationship charts are sometimes inconsistent, SE has consistently labeled Cloud and Tifa as "childhood friends" in every single relationship chart.

Except for the two where it's been pointed out to you that they weren't. But, hey, keep on wearing those blinders and lying your ass off.

Do most main *canon* couples have mutual favor arrows? Why don't Cloud and Tifa have mutual favor arrows if *most* main canon couples have them?

Kind of irrelevant since -- as you have kindly pointed out yourself -- developer statements tell us Cloud held favor for both women anyway.

It was brought up that Cecil and Rosa are not described as being together in the relationship chart despite getting married at the end of the game. However, unlike Cloud and Tifa, Cecil and Rosa *do* have mutual favor arrows.

Which applied to them before the game began. Their chart doesn't reflect what developments actually happened during their game.

It was brought up that Lulu and Wakka are not described as romantic partners in the FFX relationship chart. However, it is worth noting that they do not get married and have a child until after FFX ends.

They were brought up because their chart describes them as "childhood friends" like Cloud and Tifa.

In addition, Lulu and Wakka get married and have a child together. Cloud and Tifa do not have anything remotely similar to that.

They adopted a kid who canonically views them as his parents. Cloud canonically considers Tifa the mother of their family. She canonically considers him the father. That's actually remarkably similar to the situation with Lulu and Wakka.

Funny, Cecil x Rosa/Lulu x Wakka are being brought up, yet both couples are shown getting *married*. To be honest, bringing up *married* couples hurts Cloud x Tifa.

I'm not hearing a question here.

Since SE never tells us exactly how Cloud and Tifa expressed their mutual feelings, why is it assumed it was anything more than Cloud saying, "I like you and want to take you on a date like I went on with Aerith" and Tifa saying, "Ok! I like you too!"

Already answered this, and when you used this exact wording. We were told they expressed feelings they couldn't find the words for at the time. That leaves only a physical demonstration.

To assume it was this confession of undying love and commitment is a huge assumption, IMO.

A huge assumption on your part, yes. Find me anyone here who has said what you're claiming.

It was pointed out that one of the relationship charts show that Cloud is "living with" Tifa, Denzel, and Marlene. However, the reason Barret is not included in this is because he is away on missions, therefore Barret is not technically "living with" Cloud. But does a parent who travels for work suddenly not become apart of their family anymore?

You already know that Barret is officially excluded from what the 10th Anniversary Ultimania called Cloud's family. Let me know when you're done insulting me and everyone else here with this selective b.s. and we'll have an actual conversation sometime.




Please don't feel obligated to respond. In fact, please don't unless you're ready to drop every line of reasoning you used above.

 

[Danseru-kun]

Unanswered points/questions for those that support Cloud x Tifa:

1. The caption under Cloud and Aerith's date on the FTOIL page is irrelevant because we have other evidence that canonizes their date. Therefore, Cloud is the only hero shown with two heroines in two romantic scenes that are both canon.

So the HAHW is now canon? I'll accept that. But no the fact that SE favored the HAHW over the date is relevant. The fact that they had around 8 quotes describing the HAHW scene and including it to game summaries prove they favor it over the date scene.

Dismantled is also decanonized by Crisis Core, I would have considered it canon if CC wasn't released. How would you explain Zack meeting Aerith while she's selling flowers?

Remember, the question is not, "Which couple expresses mutual feelings?", the question is, "Who does Cloud love?"
It's irrelevant that Aerith doesn't technically know Cloud's feelings because that's not relevant in answering the question, "Who does Cloud love?"

Because Tifa loves Cloud and by mutual feelings Cloud loves her back effectively. Aerith loves Cloud but your evidences of Cloud loving Aerith back romantically are lacking.

Cloud is pictured with both of his official love interests in canon versions of romantic scenes on a page titled "For The One I Love". Seems pretty cut and dry to me.

When we consider that SE has used the word "koibito" for both pairings and the fact that Cloud wavers between two heroines, it becomes even more clear that the LTD is up to interpretation.

It's clear that Tifa is someone's koibito, and Cloud is a woman's koibito.

Cloud wavering between two heroines does not prove there is no answer. And the sentence made sure it's in the beginning of the game.

It's a fact that he loved back Tifa because their feelings are mutual.

2. Cid and Shera live together in FFVII but are not in a romantic relationship. To me, it seems as though they have always had a romantic attraction towards one another because they eventually get married. But they do not get married until *after* FFVII. This means that while Cid and Shera were living together during FFVII they were not in a romantic relationship. Continuing to say that Cloud and Tifa living together in AC is unequivocal proof that they are in a romantic relationship [especially when Cloud has a bed in his room and Tifa doesn't know if Cloud loves her] is disingenuous.

Nobody is saying living together is an ultimate proof, cite anyone who said that. If that is true then Avalanche is one big orgy.

Shera lives with Cid to atone for her mistake, Cloud and Tifa live together by their own decision. They want a home, they got entrusted with Marlene and eventually adopted Denzel. Note that it was Tifa who proposed adopting him.

Tifa discussed with Cloud and Marlene about how she wanted to welcome Denzel into their family. Cloud nodded silently, but Marlene was full of joy.- Case of Tifa

3. Saying that canon couples not comprised of the hero and heroine don't have as much romantic proof as Cloud and Tifa is not a fair comparison. Since the main characters relationship always receives more attention, development, and depth, it is only fair to compare relationships of equal status. Therefore, you can only compare Cloud x Tifa to Squall x Rinoa, Zidane x Garnet, Tidus x Yuna, etc. And the fact is, Cloud and Tifa lack clear romantic evidence that is provided for all of the other main canon couples.

No Cloud and Tifa meets the same standard as other canon couples. The only thing people nitpick is that their romantic expression is off-screen. They have clear romantic feelings the same as other canon couples, and Cloti quotes even outnumber quotes about Tuna, Squinoa and Cerosa combined.

No, the main hero and heroine doesn't necessarily receive more character development. And more character development does not equate to romance.

And example of the first case is Ichigo in Bleach, just tell me how much character development he received compared to Orihime. Goku, just Goku. He doesn't receive half the character development Vegeta and Gohan had. Aerith is a wonderfully developed character but being the main heroine of FFVII doesn't mean she has more development with Cloud.

On the second case, we have Lightning and Snow, Serah and Noel, Vaan and Ashe. They are the main heroes and heroines of their respective games, but none of their interactions are geared towards making them a romantic couple.

Cloud and Tifa have the first part required for a *canon* status because they express mutual feelings like other canon couples. But they do not have the second part that other main canon couples have -- undeniable proof of a romantic *relationship*.

Expressing mutual feelings =/= romantic relationship.

What does other canon couples have the Cloti doesn't? Tuna, Squinoa and ZidanexGarnet has no marriage involved. What is the difference between a kiss and a hug with respect to feelings? Kissing is more love? Hugging is less love?

How would you define an "undeniable proof?" How can you deny the mutual romantic feelings Cloud and Tifa have for each other?

4. No other main *canon* couples have films. Therefore, the only fair way to compare Cloud and Tifa with other canon couples is to compare what happens in the games *only*.

The perhaps you could stop considering Cloud's undying feelings for Aerith, Cloud meeting Aerith in the flowerfields in AC and Dissidia, Cloud's flashback of Aerith before Sephiroth threatens to take everything he cherish?

And even if we take the game only, then Cloti is undeniably canon with the HAHW being canon (which you admitted.) And there is also the Lifestream scene, the promise which is shared by many couples. Tifa's resemblance to Garnet and Rinoa too maybe.

5. Cloud and Tifa are described as "childhood friends" in both the FFVII chart and the AC chart. The two charts do not show any evolution in their relationship between FFVII and AC. Why was there no change in their relationship descriptions even though that was the whole point of including two charts?

Like Tres had told you, in BC Cloud is very much in love with Tifa when he was a kid, but the charts didn't show this.

And like we have told you, being a couple doesn't remove the childhood friends status.

The whole point of the charts is to give a very brief idea of relationships. Cloud and Tifa's childhood together is much more important to the plot than them loving each other. Actually, FFVII direly needs the childhood friends plot for the story to happen.

6. I do not disagree that Cloud and Tifa can be described as "childhood friends" but also be *more* than "childhood friends". But that doesn't explain why when given the opportunity to show how their relationship changed between FFVII and AC, SE used the exact same relationship description of "childhood friends".

Remember, this was not an all encompassing chart. SE included two charts to specifically show how relationships changed between FFVII and AC. SE did not show Cloud and Tifa's relationship growing beyond that of "childhood friends".

It's because they don't want to be explicit about it. How long before SE confirmed Laguna is Squall's father? Does SE's reluctance to show it make Laguna's fatherhood less canon?

And why is that when they're given an opportunity to describe Tifa, they made sure that she's a koibito?

SE can choose to show information when they want to, they made sure Cloud and Tifa have mutual "koui," they made sure the HAHW scene is listed in the FTOIL page and that the HAHW is in the story summaries.

7. Although the relationship charts are sometimes inconsistent, SE has consistently labeled Cloud and Tifa as "childhood friends" in every single relationship chart. This means that although SE is sometimes inconsistent with other relationships, they have been consistent with Cloud and Tifa's relationship. This means the argument of inconsistency does not apply to Cloud and Tifa's relationship.

Therefore, if the relationship charts show an inconsistency with a certain relationship, that inconsistency is for that relationship only. That does not mean, however, that SE is inconsistent with every relationship. Trying to paint these relationship charts with a broad brush because they discredit Cloti is very telling.

Your argument in the first part is fair enough, but the last sentence ruins it. Like I told you, childhood friends do no negate romance, just like in Wakka and Lulu's case.

If you can't show how the "inconsistency" argument applies directly to Cloud and Tifa specifically, your point is not relevant.

The inconsistency we're pointing is not the difference in descriptions between charts, the inconsistency is with respect to the actual story. One simple description cannot summarize the depth of all relationships. Some charts doesn't even acknowledge Zerith.

8. Do most main *canon* couples have mutual favor arrows? Why don't Cloud and Tifa have mutual favor arrows if *most* main canon couples have them?

Because their romance is not actually very relevant to FFVII more than their childhood connection.

Again, the charts are not the last word. Trying to deny all the evidence and facts the chart didn't show is not very helpful in your position as the Clerith connection cannot be summed by a mere chart as well right?

9. It was brought up that Cecil and Rosa are not described as being together in the relationship chart despite getting married at the end of the game. However, unlike Cloud and Tifa, Cecil and Rosa *do* have mutual favor arrows. And even if the relationship chart doesn't tell us that Cecil and Rosa are a romantic couple, we have unequivocal proof that they are a romantic couple because they get married. Cloud and Tifa never get married. That's the difference.

You have to prove to us that marriage weights more than other evidences, because the last time I watched the most popular Korean drama that existed, the couple didn't get married in the show. Oh wait, I think I can name a lot of movies where couples never married, probably I should rethink my position and think they're not canon enough.

10. It was brought up that Lulu and Wakka are not described as romantic partners in the FFX relationship chart. However, it is worth noting that they do not get married and have a child until after FFX ends.

Just like Hojo and Lucrecia

Yeah we tend to assume married partners with children love each other, I'll accept that. But using marriage as an undeniable proof when mutual romantic feelings are seems like an unfair standard.

In addition, Lulu and Wakka get married and have a child together. Cloud and Tifa do not have anything remotely similar to that. Therefore, even though the relationship chart doesn't say Lulu and Wakka are in a romantic relationship, we have undeniable evidence that they are in a romantic relationship because they are married. Cloud and Tifa do not have undeniable evidence. That's the difference.

Again, what Cloti evidence do you deny? The HAHW scene and the koibito thing, how can you deny that?

Are you... saying biological children are the only legitimate children?

Again, marriage is not an undeniable evidence. Hojo and Lucrecia again pls.

11. Funny, Cecil x Rosa/Lulu x Wakka are being brought up, yet both couples are shown getting *married*. To be honest, bringing up *married* couples hurts Cloud x Tifa.

No it doesn't.

There are many reasons why couples won't get married. Many real life couples last for decades without marrying.

12. Since SE never tells us exactly how Cloud and Tifa expressed their mutual feelings, why is it assumed it was anything more than Cloud saying, "I like you and want to take you on a date like I went on with Aerith" and Tifa saying, "Ok! I like you too!" To assume it was this confession of undying love and commitment is a huge assumption, IMO.

The didn't use words, and the quotes imply a sexual meaning, especially that it's feelings of desire.

13. It was pointed out that one of the relationship charts show that Cloud is "living with" Tifa, Denzel, and Marlene. However, the reason Barret is not included in this is because he is away on missions, therefore Barret is not technically "living with" Cloud. But does a parent who travels for work suddenly not become apart of their family anymore?

No it isn't I agree. Both my father and mother was away from me at certain points of my life, and I'm living with my grandma and cousins. My mother and father is still my family, and family with my grandma and cousins. But technically we're several families under my grandma's roof. See my point?

Based on these two passages, it is clear that Cloud, Tifa, and Barret formed a family together at Seventh Heaven. That was their intention from the very beginning.

Still bearing the pain from her past, she lived together with Cloud, Marlene and Denzel, a boy who had sought shelter at the slum’s Church.
FFVII 10th Anniversary Ultimania Tifa Lockhart Character Profile p 42-47

Cloud brought Denzel back from the slum’s church and from then, it became the four of them living together.
FFVII 10th Anniversary Ultimania Tifa Lockhart Character Profile p 42-47

Cloud brings Denzel back from the slum’s church and Denzel joins Cloud’s family. FFVII 10th Anniversary Complete Timeline

Now running a delivery business while helping out Tifa with the newly opened “Seventh Heaven” bar, Cloud, Tifa, Marlene and Denzel lived together like a family. However, when Cloud contracts Geostigma he disappears. Behind these actions lies feelings of guilt towards his past failure to protect people who were important to him, but through his battle with Kadaj’s gang, the legacy of Jenova, he regains the courage to face reality.
FFVII 10th Anniversary Ultimania Cloud Strife Profile p36-41

After visiting various locations with Tifa and Barret, Tifa opened the “Seventh Heaven” bar. Before setting off on a journey, Barret left Marlene in Cloud and Tifa’s care, and the three of them began living together.
FFVII 10th Anniversary Ultimania Cloud Strife Profile p36-41


When he awakes, there was his friends. There were the children, freed from their fatal illness. Tifa and Marlene, and Denzel asking for Cloud to heal his Geostigma— his family were waiting. Engulfed in celebration, he realizes where he is meant to live. He realizes that he was able to forgive himself.

- (SOURCE: 10th AU, ACC Playback:

In the past you’ve always looked after me, you, Denzel and Tifa. You were there whenever I needed you. Now it’s my turn.- Cloud to Marlene in ACC

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A love triangle where a hero wavers between two heroines means that two pairings are possible. This means that evidence will be provided for *both* pairings. In order to declare that one couple is canon over the other, you have to go above and beyond a normal standard of proof. There has to be compelling and undeniable evidence that one pairing is canon and the other isn't. But in the absence of a love triangle, you do not have to determine which couple has stronger evidence because there is only one couple to pick from.

You are the only one using this kind of reasoning, which is a fallacy. We have always held that a couple is canon if there is enough evidences. It doesn't matter how other couples are canon. Clerith and Cloti can both be canon and you're acting as if only one can be canon or both are not canon. It's no a zero sum game.

Whatever evidence we have for Cloti does not make Clerith less canon and vice versa. Even if Barret or Zack is in love with Cloud it will not affect the canonity of Clerith and Cloti.

No, having love rivals doesn't diminish any feelings, not having love rivals doesn't make things better. Quistis's crush for Squall never hurts Squinoa, Johnny's crush on Tifa doesn't hurt Cloti, Tseng's crush for Aerith doesn't hurt Clerith.

So there, every point answered again. I don't know if I'll have time to do this again.

And yes @Hallelujah

welcome to the thread and to TLS and read back the past 300 posts and find out why debaters are agitated. If you want to be truly fair look out the wide picture than side with the people who ship the same thing as you.

And yes, I agree to Tres