The Love Triangle Debate thread of KNEEL BEFORE ZOD OR SUFFER HIS WRATH (ignore the opening posts at your peril) (Round 6)

[BlankBeat]

You have a grand total of zero evidence that this was the point of including multiple charts. You're just claiming it without any basis and ignoring the bits that don't fit your claim, such as the charts for BC, LO and CC still calling the two "childhood friends" when they were teenagers with verified romantic interest in one another -- oh, and that Dirge chart that doesn't describe them as anything.

It makes sense that all encompassing charts would refer to how relationships *begin*.

This is a long explanation, but it will be very worthwhile, I think.

For example, in most of the all encompassing FFVII charts they describe Cloud as Aerith's "bodyguard" and Tifa as Cloud's "childhood friend". That's because that is how both of these relationships *BEGAN*. Therefore, in the all encompassing charts, it seems routine to describe the relationship with a description of how the relationship *began*.

But by including an FFVII chart and an AC chart, it was designed to tell us how relationships were as they pertained specifically to FFVII and AC. Again, please let me explain.

In FFVII, Cloud and Tifa started off as "childhood friends". So that's why they are described as "childhood friends" in the FFVII chart. The AC chart should say they started off as "lovers" because of the HAHW scene. But the fact is -- SE describes them as "childhood friends" in *BOTH* the FFVII chart and AC chart.

The reason I know that including the FFVII and AC charts was meant to highlight changes is because it shows a change in Cloud and Aerith's relationship.

Cloud began as Aerith's "bodyguard" in the FFVII chart, but then felt "guilt" for Aerith in the AC chart. That is telling us that a change in their relationship took place between FFVII and AC.

Now here is where it might get confusing, but I really want to make this point known:

Obviously Cloud evolves beyond "bodyguard" in FFVII, and obviously Cloud's "guilt" is removed at the end of AC. But this proves my theory that relationship charts almost always tell us how the relationships *begins*. In other words, because Cloud is described as Aerith's "bodyguard" in the FFVII chart (even though he evolves beyond that in the game), and because Cloud is described as having "guilt" towards Aerith in the AC chart (even though his "guilt" is removed by the end of AC), this tells me that the charts are describing how the relationship *begins* in both FFVII and AC.

Therefore, it is clear that these two charts are meant to tell us how the relationships began in both FFVII and AC. But because Cloud and Tifa are described as "childhood friends" in both the FFVII and AC charts, it means that they begin as "childhood friends" in both time periods. But if the HAHW scene made them a romantic couple, they should have been described as "lovers" not "childhood friends" in the AC chart.

In addition, the all encompassing charts found in the Final Fantasy VII Ultimania Omega and the Final Fantasy 20th Anniversary Ultimania (which are not separated by FFVII and AC), describe Cloud and Aerith's relationship with "bodyguard" because that was the very beginning of their relationship. In addition, these all encompassing charts also describe Cloud and Tifa's relationship as "childhood friends" because that was the very beginning of their relationship.

But what makes the FFVII 10th Anniversary Ultimania different is that it includes two charts, one for FFVII and one for AC. And as I described above, the FFVII chart tells us how Cloud's relationship with Aerith begins in FFVII by saying he was her "bodyguard", and the AC chart tells us how Cloud's relationship with Aerith begins in AC by saying he feels "guilt" towards her. But we all know that Cloud become more than Aerith's bodyguard in FFVII, and we all know Cloud's guilt is removed at the end of AC. So my point is that the FFVII chart and the AC chart tells us how Cloud and Aerith's relationship *began* during both FFVII and AC.

However, Cloud and Tifa are described as "childhood friends" in both charts despite the HAHW scene supposedly moving them beyond "childhood friends".

Therefore, because the FFVII 10th Anniversary Ultimania has two charts and not a single all encompassing chart, the description for Cloud and Tifa's relationship should be different for both charts as it is for Cloud and Aerith. The FFVII chart should tell us how Cloud and Tifa's relationship began in FFVII, and the AC chart should tell us how their relationship began in AC. This means that if the HAHW scene made them into an official couple, or if they became lovers during CoT, they should not be described as "childhood friends" in the AC chart. Period.

He loves -- or at least loved -- both romantically. This has been answeres before. Next question.

If Cloud loves both Aerith and Tifa, neither couple is canon.

He simply loves both, just as Locke loves both Rachel and Celes.

In Rachel's final farewell, she tells Locke: "Give your love to the one who now dwells within your heart...love her..as you loved me."

This is clear evidence from SE that Locke is to be with Celes. By SE having Rachel tell Locke to *love* Celes, that is unequivocal proof that they are meant to be together and that they are the canon couple.

If Aerith had said to Cloud about Tifa, "Give your love to the one who now dwells within your heart...love her..as you loved me," the LTD would be over. But the fact is, that didn't happen.

And just to make clear: Locke is not seen reaching for Rachel's hand at the end of the game and telling us that he wants to go meet her in the Promised Land. So unlike FFVII, it is definite that the LT is over by the time FFVI is done because Rachel gives Locke permission to *love* Celes.

No one has said the fact of them living together is, by itself, proof of anything.

Many users have used the word "cohabiting" as one of their reasons for why Cloud x Tifa are canon. So my point is -- Cid x Shera cohabit in FFVII but are not in a romantic relationship.

In other words, what makes Cid x Shera an official canon couple is not their cohabitation, but their marriage. Something Cloud and Tifa do not have.

What's disingenuous is you calling that room -- which lacks privacy and furniture, and is only ever referred to as an office -- Cloud's bedroom. Likewise on pretending that insecure people in relationships don't ask "Do you love me?"

1. Given the circumstances of Midgar at that time, it doesn't surprise me that Cloud doesn't have a properly furnished room. But the lack of other furniture is irrelevant and beside the point.

2. How does a lack of furniture prevent someone from sleeping in a bed?

3. Who else sleeps in that bed if not Cloud?

4. Did SE really include a "guest bed" for the hell of it?

5. Until we see Cloud and Tifa sleeping together, it is only reasonable to assume Cloud sleeps in the bed that is in his room.

6. To say Tifa is asking Cloud if he loves her simply because she is "insecure" is ignoring the way their relationship is described by Nojima and is ignoring the circumstances that surrounded their relationship at the time she asked the question.

You're the one who has failed to provide evidence of your claim here as to how Celes & Locke, Zidane & Dagger and Sarah & Ingus have more "undeniable evidence" of a continuing relationship post-game.

I provided evidence for Celes and Locke. I provided evidence for Zidane and Dagger.

Also -- what does the relationship charts say for Zidane and Dagger? I'd be *very* curious to know if they have mutual arrows and what their relationship description is.

And I'm not familiar with FF3. Sorry :/

However, I will note that there is clear evidence for Squall x Rinoa and Tidus x Yuna, as well as the other couples we have been discussing that have gotten *married*.

You accept that it does for a bunch of other couples.

To say that expressing mutual feelings is all that is required to be in a relationship is making the assumption that expressing mutual feelings always leads to a relationship. I prefer not to make this assumption, which is why I believe expressing mutual feelings has to be substantiated with an official statement by SE, or an undeniable example of romantic love in order to move to official *canon* status.

With Cloud and Tifa, it is abundantly clear that expressing mutual feelings does not always lead to a romantic relationship because 1. the relationship charts 2. Nomura's quote 3. Tifa not knowing if Cloud loves her and 4. the living arrangement at Seventh Heaven.

Bullshit. The games are already highly cinematic media, and you reference Advent Children all the time.

We are never able to see how most of these other relationships develop after their games end because they do not have a sequel.

Not to mention how selectice you're being when the charts are applied to Aerith.

How am I being selective about how charts are being applied to Aerith? I don't believe either pairing is canon.

Except for the two where it's been pointed out to you that they weren't. But, hey, keep on wearing those blinders and lying your ass off.

Are the other charts talking about their one-on-one relationship, or their relationship with other characters, too?

Of the 4 relationship charts that I know are talking about Cloud and Tifa's one-on-one relationship, they *all* describe Cloud and Tifa as "childhood friends" *only*.

One of these charts is in the Final Fantasy VII Ultimania Omega, one of these charts is in the Final Fantasy 20th Anniversary Ultimania, and two of these charts are in the FFVII 10th Anniversary Ultimania.

Kind of irrelevant since -- as you have kindly pointed out yourself -- developer statements tell us Cloud held favor for both women anyway.

Favor arrows would help us determine which couple is the *canon* couple.

They were brought up because their chart describes them as "childhood friends" like Cloud and Tifa.

Is their chart talking about FFX or all of the compilation? All I can see is that the chart is talking about FFX only.

When we consider that many of the relationship charts for FFVII came out after AC, but weren't necessarily talking about both FFVII and AC, we don't know for sure that the FFX chart is talking about both FFX and FFX-2.

The FFX chart simply says FFX. It does not say FFX compilation, nor does it say anything about FFX-2. Assuming that it is talking about both because it came out after FFX-2 is a huge assumption, especially when nothing indicates that it is talking about anything more than FFX. In fact, all it says is FFX.

Furthermore, is there anything on the FFX relationship chart that says anything about information that was given to us in FFX-2? Until you can show me where anything on that chart refers to FFX-2, you are simply assuming that the chart is talking about both FFX and FFX-2.

In addition, Lulu and Wakka get married and have a child together. Cloud and Tifa do not have anything remotely similar to that. Therefore, even though the relationship chart doesn't say Lulu and Wakka are in a romantic relationship, we have undeniable evidence that they are in a romantic relationship because they are married. Cloud and Tifa do not have undeniable evidence. That's the difference.

They adopted a kid who canonically views them as his parents. Cloud canonically considers Tifa the mother of their family. She canonically considers him the father. That's actually remarkably similar to the situation with Lulu and Wakka.

Cloud and Tifa are the only parental figures at Seventh Heaven by default because everyone else in AVALANCHE has died and Barret is off doing missions. Therefore, Cloud and Tifa are the only possible people for him to view as his parents.

But as you said, Denzel views *THEM* as his parents. But that doesn't tell us anything about their one-on-one relationship with each other.

Already answered this, and when you used this exact wording. We were told they expressed feelings they couldn't find the words for at the time. That leaves only a physical demonstration.

I'll have to investigate this one a bit more.

A huge assumption on your part, yes. Find me anyone here who has said what you're claiming.

...one of the biggest reasons that was used in the "LTD over" article, and one of the biggest reasons that is frequently cited by Cloti's to declare that Cloti is canon, is the HAHW scene.

To use the HAHW as proof that Cloti is canon means you are assuming that the HAHW scene meant undying love and commitment.

You already know that Barret is officially excluded from what the 10th Anniversary Ultimania called Cloud's family. Let me know when you're done insulting me and everyone else here with this selective b.s. and we'll have an actual conversation sometime.

SE has been inconsistent on whether Barret is apart of the Seventh Heaven family.

You have yet to respond to any of the quotes that prove he is, in fact, apart of the Seventh Heaven family.

 

[jazzflower92]

BlankBeat,can't you accept the fact that Cloti is canon and that you can enjoy Clerith as a fanon couple.It seems like you seem to be ignoring anything that does not fit your point of view about this pairing.Aerith was a very cherished person to Cloud but so is Tifa and the major thing that Cloud in AC/ACC needed to do was let go of his past failings so he could focus on being productive in the present.Cloud needed to let go of pining for Aerith because it was hurting his family.

 

[Ryushikaze]

--------------------

I will attempt to answer your questions, although I'm not as familiar with other FF games as I am with FFVII.

I will note, however, that the other FF games *do not* have films. With the lack of films for the other games, we are unable to see how the relationships progressed between the canon couples (aside from FFX because of FFX-2, which we all know is clear Tidus x Yuna evidence).



In this discussion, because other canon couples do not have films, it is only fair to compare what we find between Cloud and Tifa in FFVII to what we find in the games of the other canon couples. Therefore, all Cloud and Tifa have from FFVII is the HAHW scene.

While I find this logic rather inane, I shall allow it... provided we also apply it to 10-2 and other sequels. Because, well, that's what AC is. So that means Wakka and Lulu have no kid. Cid and Sierra have no marraige. Cecil and Rosa are now the only mains to close out their relationship.

Cloud and Tifa have the first part required for a *canon* status because they express mutual feelings, but they do not have the second part. Cloud and Tifa do not kiss, get married, say "I love you", say "will you be my boyfriend/girlfriend?", no sleeping in the same room, having a romantic embrace, or any other sort of undeniable romantic behavior. Nor do they have any official pieces of dialogue or statements by SE that support them as a couple.

Expressing mutual feelings =/= romantic relationship.

Then you have just invalidated EVERY entry on the FTOIL page, apart from Cecil and Rosa.

There is a love triangle between Locke, Rachel, and Celes. But after Rachel's death, it is clear that Locke is meant to move on with Celes. In Rachel's final farewell, she tells Locke: "Give your love to the one who now dwells within your heart...love her..as you loved me."

This is clear evidence from SE that Locke is to be with Celes. By SE having Rachel tell Locke to *love* Celes, that is unequivocal proof that they are meant to be together and that they are the canon couple.

If Aerith had said to Cloud about Tifa, "Give your love to the one who now dwells within your heart...love her..as you loved me," the LTD would be over.

While that's not how 'unequivocal proof' works, then wouldn't Maiden's having Aerith trusting all the feelings in her heart to Tifa fulfill the same burden? Living girl trusting the man she loved with her living rival?
If Rachel telling Locke to love Celes is proof they have a relationship later, then Aerith's trusting all of her emotions for Cloud to Tifa, who gets to live together with Cloud, should serve the same proof.

And just to make clear: Locke is not seen reaching for Rachel's hand at the end of the game and telling us that he wants to go meet her in the Promised Land. So unlike FFVII, it is definite that the LT is over by the time FFVI is done because Rachel gives Locke permission to *love* Celes.

I never mentioned a love triangle, actually. I mentioned evidence that the two actually have a relationship.

Squall and Rinoa kiss at the end of the game. There is no question about the nature of their relationship. Again -- Cloud and Tifa do not have any physical evidence of a romantic relationship after the HAHW scene.

You might want to re-watch the ending of FF8. There is no on screen kiss.
And if we're ignoring all sequels, then why would there NEED to be evidence of a romantic relationship afterwards? If the dying words of Rachel are sufficient evidence, a confession of mutual romance in a way that does not involve words should be far more than sufficient.

The ending of the game shows Garnet running and romantically embracing Zidane after they have been unequivocally established as romantic love interests. This was an obvious piece of romantic imagery by SE.

They show an embrace, yes. But remember, I said evidence of a relationship, not of romantic interest, since that's the standard you demand for Cloud and Tifa, and a romantic confession is NOT apparently sufficient to demonstrate the two of them as such.

Although you could argue that the end of the game shows Cloud holding Tifa, it also shows Aerith reaching for Cloud from the sky. Cloud also expresses a desire to meet Aerith in the Promised Land. So to me, that is equal evidence for both pairings.

In which case... C/T wins. Because

In addition, statements from SE make it clear that Zidane and Garnet are the only possible canon couple in FFIX. The same can't be said for Cloud and Tifa.

If you could provide these statements and not simply refer to them vaguely, that would be a first step.
Also, as for statements from SE, those make it quite clear that Cloud and Tifa formed a family together, belong together, view each other as father and mother of their formed family, consider Denzel their son and are considered as parents by Denzel, have a future together, and that Tifa is beloved by someone as one of her positions in the world. Official statements also state that Cloud and Tifa confirmed their mutual romantic feelings for each other at the end of FF7, and live together in AC and DoC.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't this official quote actually claim Noel x Yeul and Snow x Serah are official?

“The game didn’t feature any love story between Noel and Serah since both characters had their own loved ones in Yeul and Snow respectively.” - Final Fantasy XIII-2 Ultimania Omega

Snow x Serah are also seen hugging, kissing, and having a date with fireworks. Cloti has none of that.

They hugged, kissed, and had a date two years ago. Then Snow left to go find Lightning and Serah didn't see him for two years. I'm not trying to say there's anything between Noel and Serah. In point, I did not mention Noel at fucking all. What I DID point out was that Snow has ACTUALLY been searching for a dead woman for two years and leaving his fiancee behind- even ending their engagement to do it- and yet you still recognize Snow and Serah as a relationship, not calling it a failure, etc.

That's all I have to say about the other canon couples for now.

But I must make this clear -- when I'm talking about *canon* couples, I'm talking about couples that are given an equal amount of attention by SE. Many of the couples you ask about are not given that much attention and/or development because they aren't the main hero/heroine.

I mentioned two pairings that made it to the FTOIL page you ignored.
You've been bizarrely focused on two pairings that have not been on that page- Cid and Sierra and Wakka and Lulu.

You have ignored Ingus and Sarah and Aldebert and Beatrix, both couples deemed worthy of inclusion on the FTOIL page, but neither of which have in game evidence of relationship beyond their initial confessions.

So if a couple of a lesser status is given less evidence than Cloud and Tifa, I don't buy your argument. I guess I should have qualified my statement with: Cloud and Tifa are not shown with the same amount of evidence as the other *main* canon couples, meaning Squall x Rinoa, Zidane x Garnet, Tidus x Yuna, etc.

They are shown with more evidence than Most all of them, actually. You wish to downplay the cohabitation and the forming a family and the adopting of a child as theirs... but all those things are still fact, and are quite good evidence that the two HAVE moved their mutual romantic confession into an actual relationship.

It is a fact that the hero's relationship is going to be given the most attention and development. By trying to compare Cloud x Tifa to more minor couples is an unfair comparison, IMO. So I will revise my statement to say that Cloud and Tifa are not treated like the other *main* Final Fantasy couples.

Except that they rather are. All the other pairings get up to the confession, and perhaps little hints of more. Cloud and Tifa have done what only few others, INCLUDING one of the secondary couples have done- gone on to live together and have kids.

“The rumor said it’s an epidemic. I don’t want Marlene to be infected. C’mon, let’s go home.” said Barret with a complete fatherly look on his face.

“Yeah, let’s go home” Cloud agreed.

“Where to?” Barret asked.

“Our suspended reality.”

“What the hell do you mean by that?”

“Our normal lives.”

“And where do we have something like that?”

“We’ll find one.” Cloud looked at Tifa and said, “Right?”

“Yeah!” cried the cheerful Marlene. Tifa nodded too, but just like Barret, she wondered where they had a normal life. ~CoT

This conversation between Cloud, Tifa, Barret, and Marlene demonstrate the idea that even from the very beginning, they each knew they were in it together.

Barret says to everyone, "let's go home". Cloud agrees and Barret asks where this new home will be. Cloud responds and says they'll find a place *together*

This isn't about just Cloud and Tifa attempting to start a new life together. From the very start, the four of them worked hard to establish the New Seventh Heaven. Before Barret leaves for *work*, it is brought up by Marlene and then made certain by Barret that what they've established at Seventh Heaven is what one would consider a family:

I’ll be a nice child of this family!” Marlene said.

Hearing those words, Cloud and Tifa looked at each other. A child of this family?

“I’ll take care of Cloud and Tifa!”

Barret turned round and shouted, “Do your best!” His voice was a little shaky.

“Unite the family’s strength and keep at it!” ~CoT

While Barret is away, Marlene says she will take care of Cloud and Tifa. But what they formed before Barret left was a family that includes all of them. That was their intent from the beginning as I outlined from the passage above. They started a new life *together* when Cloud told Barret that they would find a place to call home *together*. This place turns out to be Seventh Heaven.

Based on these two passages, it is clear that Cloud, Tifa, and Barret formed a family together at Seventh Heaven. That was their intention from the very beginning.

It's not clear at all. The U10 refers to Tifa (in relation to Cloud) as 'the mother of the two of them were forming in Edge', Tifa's Novella likewise confirming Cloud as the father in Tifa's eyes. It also confirms that Cloud himself sees Tifa, Marlene, and Denzel as the members of his family, not Barret. Barret himself, in his Novella, refers to Cloud and Tifa as a unit, and mentally distances himself from the goings on there. He is not, and is not considered by anyone other than probably Marlene, part of the Nuclear family of the new 7th Heaven.
In fact, when Barret decided he was going to go off on his own, he re-emphasized that Cloud and Tifa's paths involved the both of them staying together.

EDIT #1: It wasn’t until disc 2 that Cid learned Shera was right about aborting the rocket launch and he forgave her. Point is, at the time Avalanche first met Cid and Shera, they were living together but Cid was NOT in love with Shera at that time.

In addition, Cid and Shera get *married* after they express mutual feelings. Cloud and Tifa do not.

Nor do Ingus and Sarah, Locke and Celes, Squall and Rinoa, Zidane and Garnet, Tidus and Yuna, or Snow and Serah. Technically, we also don't know if Wakka and Lulu got married. We assume they did, but it is never said.
No, Cloud and Tifa don't get married, but they do adopt. They've been declared as sharing a future, as belonging together, etc. etc. etc.


But let me finish by saying you again rely on a double standard. For all other couples, you find that a mutual confession of romantic feelings followed by nothing is sufficient to prove a relationship continues despite no evidence of such. For Cloud and Tifa, you find that a mutual confession of romantic feelings with risque implications as to how these feelings were expressed followed by Cloud thinking he can succeed in life because he now has Tifa in a different way than before, living together, forming a family together, adopting a child, belonging together, and having a future together, is woefully insufficient to prove they have had a relationship at all.


My purpose with asking questions about as many romances as I did, both of main and non main characters, was to see gauge your thoughts on the matter.

You ignored answering well over half of these extremely simply questions that I asked simply to set a baseline, and instead tried to special plead about different standards for main character romances and secondary character romances- though if we can apply different standards based on character status, why not also different standards based on actual narrative focus?

Incidentally, you say that I shouldn't use romances of 'secondary' characters to compare that of the main character. In which case, how can we look at FF6's example as compared to FF7? Locke and Celes are secondary characters. Terra is the main character of FF6.

Now then, let me ask you again.

Ingus and Sarah- where is the evidence of a relationship?

Locke and Celes- where is the evidence of a relationship? A dead woman telling him to go do something is not evidence that he started dating Celes.

Squall and Rinoa- where is the evidence of a relationship after their confession scenes?

Aldebert and Beatrix- where is the evidence of a relationship?

Amarant and Lani- Canon or no? If yes, what evidence shows such?

Vaan and Penelo- Canon or no? If yes, what evidence shows such?

Fran and Balthier- Canon or no? If yes, what evidence shows such?

Fang and Vanille- Canon or no? If yes, what evidence shows such?


Vaan and Penelo are the main characters of FF12, Fang and Vanille are just as primary characters of FF13 as Snow is, and more than Serah.

BB, I'll be blunt- your 'unequivocal proof' is all pretty much shit. You take the most tenuous connections and spin them into absurd nonsense. Rachel's line for example- it's her telling him to let her go and be with Celes. It's a nice sentiment, and is fairly decent evidence on its own that he loves Celes, but proof of an actual relationship? Not in the slightest.

You also use lots and lots of words to say ultimately very little. You essentially start a stampede of words to distract from the fact that your connections are dubious at best, your logic unsound, and your arguments untenable. You keep applying double standards, and sometimes you're at least kind enough to be honest when you're doing it.

Instead of the steaming mounds of sophistry, try simple, direct, and honest responses. You'll contradict yourself less and piss less people off.

 

[Dashell]

I still don't get this whole "Barret's in the family" thing... I don't think he is but... so what if he is?... that's a point against Cloti or a point for Clerith ... why?

Tifa: Cloud do you love me?
Cloud: No, sorry, Barret's in the family.


what is that?

 

[Strangelove]

i don't think cloud and tifa were in a relationship at the end of the original game, and up towards ac they are on the start--albeit a rocky one--to having one (when cloud says he doesn't know how to approach marlene in otwtas that is applying to tifa as well). it properly starts after ac when the main issues are resolved

~interpretation~

 

[BlankBeat]

A lot of your points you brought up have been responded to in my post to Tres. But I'll find the stuff he didn't bring up.

Still bearing the pain from her past, she lived together with Cloud, Marlene and Denzel, a boy who had sought shelter at the slum’s Church.
FFVII 10th Anniversary Ultimania Tifa Lockhart Character Profile p 42-47

Cloud brought Denzel back from the slum’s church and from then, it became the four of them living together.
FFVII 10th Anniversary Ultimania Tifa Lockhart Character Profile p 42-47

Cloud brings Denzel back from the slum’s church and Denzel joins Cloud’s family. FFVII 10th Anniversary Complete Timeline

The quote where it says Tifa lived together with Cloud, Marlene, and Denzel proves nothing. Barret isn't living with them because he is away on missions. So why would he be included in *ANY* of the quotes that talk about them *living* together? EDIT: But just because Barret doesn't *live* with them doesn't mean he isn't apart of the family.

The quote where it says it became the "four of them living together" proves nothing. Barret isn't living with them because he is away on missions. So why would he be included in *ANY* of the quotes that talk about them *living* together? EDIT: But just because Barret doesn't *live* with them doesn't mean he isn't apart of the family.

The final quote says Denzel joined Cloud's "family". Nothing more, nothing less.

Now running a delivery business while helping out Tifa with the newly opened “Seventh Heaven” bar, Cloud, Tifa, Marlene and Denzel lived together like a family. However, when Cloud contracts Geostigma he disappears. Behind these actions lies feelings of guilt towards his past failure to protect people who were important to him, but through his battle with Kadaj’s gang, the legacy of Jenova, he regains the courage to face reality.
FFVII 10th Anniversary Ultimania Cloud Strife Profile p36-41

Again -- this quote says that they lived together like a family. Yes, they did live together like a family. Who is denying that? The only reason Barret is not included in the quote is because he is AWAY ON MISSIONS. How hard is that to understand? How could he possibly be included in this quote where it talks about them living together like a family when he doesn't live there?

But as I said before, just because a parent travels for work doesn't mean they aren't a member of their family.

After visiting various locations with Tifa and Barret, Tifa opened the “Seventh Heaven” bar. Before setting off on a journey, Barret left Marlene in Cloud and Tifa’s care, and the three of them began living together.
FFVII 10th Anniversary Ultimania Cloud Strife Profile p36-41

Yes. Marlene is in their care while Barret is away on missions. Cloud and Tifa are the only two adults that live there because everyone else in AVALANCHE died. What's your point?

Also -- Cloud and Tifa are the only parental figures at Seventh Heaven by default because everyone else in AVALANCHE has died and Barret is off doing missions. Therefore, Cloud and Tifa are the only possible people for Denzel to view as his parents.

When he awakes, there was his friends. There were the children, freed from their fatal illness. Tifa and Marlene, and Denzel asking for Cloud to heal his Geostigma— his family were waiting. Engulfed in celebration, he realizes where he is meant to live. He realizes that he was able to forgive himself.

- (SOURCE: 10th AU, ACC Playback:

This is the *ONLY* quote that somewhat proves your point. But again -- it says Barret rushes back to defend his "family and friends" in another official quote. I also have other quotes that I listed in my previous posts that prove Barret is apart of the Seventh Heaven family. This one quote does not supersede all the other quotes that I have provided.

If anything, SE is inconsistent.

No it isn't I agree. Both my father and mother was away from me at certain points of my life, and I'm living with my grandma and cousins. My mother and father is still my family, and family with my grandma and cousins. But technically we're several families under my grandma's roof. See my point?

You became multiple families while you were *living* with different people, but at the end of the day, you were still *one* family.

Cloud, Tifa, Denzel, and Marlene are a *family* of 4 while Barret is away, but they are a family of 5 when he returns because he will *always* be apart of the family at Seventh Heaven and he will always be Marlene's Father.

In CoT Barret says to everyone, "let's go home". Cloud agrees and Barret asks where this new home will be. Cloud responds by saying they will find a place to call home *together*.

This isn't about just Cloud and Tifa attempting to start a new life together. From the very start, the four of them worked hard to establish the New Seventh Heaven.

Before Barret leaves for *work*, it is brought up by Marlene and then made certain by Barret that what they've established at Seventh Heaven is what one would consider a family.

While Barret is away, Marlene says she will take care of Cloud and Tifa. But what they formed before Barret left was a family that includes all of them. That was their intent from the beginning.

All of them started a new life *together* when Cloud told Barret that they would find a place to call home *together*. This home turned out to be Seventh Heaven.

It is clear that Cloud, Tifa, and Barret formed a family together at Seventh Heaven. That was their intention from the very beginning.

[I cite the passages for my explanation in my previous posts]

Like Tres had told you, in BC Cloud is very much in love with Tifa when he was a kid, but the charts didn't show this.

And like we have told you, being a couple doesn't remove the childhood friends status.

The whole point of the charts is to give a very brief idea of relationships. Cloud and Tifa's childhood together is much more important to the plot than them loving each other. Actually, FFVII direly needs the childhood friends plot for the story to happen.

Here is my explanation of the charts:
This is a long explanation, but it will be very worthwhile, I think.

For example, in most of the all encompassing FFVII charts they describe Cloud as Aerith's "bodyguard" and Tifa as Cloud's "childhood friend". That's because that is how both of these relationships *BEGAN*. Therefore, in the all encompassing charts, it seems routine to describe the relationship with a description of how the relationship *began*.

But by including an FFVII chart and an AC chart, it was designed to tell us how relationships were as they pertained specifically to FFVII and AC. Again, please let me explain.

In FFVII, Cloud and Tifa started off as "childhood friends". So that's why they are described as "childhood friends" in the FFVII chart. The AC chart should say they started off as "lovers" because of the HAHW scene. But the fact is -- SE describes them as "childhood friends" in *BOTH* the FFVII chart and AC chart.

The reason I know that including the FFVII and AC charts was meant to highlight changes is because it shows a change in Cloud and Aerith's relationship.

Cloud began as Aerith's "bodyguard" in the FFVII chart, but then felt "guilt" for Aerith in the AC chart. That is telling us that a change in their relationship took place between FFVII and AC.

Now here is where it might get confusing, but I really want to make this point known:

Obviously Cloud evolves beyond "bodyguard" in FFVII, and obviously Cloud's "guilt" is removed at the end of AC. But this proves my theory that relationship charts almost always tell us how the relationships *begins*. In other words, because Cloud is described as Aerith's "bodyguard" in the FFVII chart (even though he evolves beyond that in the game), and because Cloud is described as having "guilt" towards Aerith in the AC chart (even though his "guilt" is removed by the end of AC), this tells me that the charts are describing how the relationship *begins* in both FFVII and AC.

Therefore, it is clear that these two charts are meant to tell us how the relationships began in both FFVII and AC. But because Cloud and Tifa are described as "childhood friends" in both the FFVII and AC charts, it means that they begin as "childhood friends" in both time periods. But if the HAHW scene made them a romantic couple, they should have been described as "lovers" not "childhood friends" in the AC chart.

In addition, the all encompassing charts found in the Final Fantasy VII Ultimania Omega and the Final Fantasy 20th Anniversary Ultimania (which are not separated by FFVII and AC), describe Cloud and Aerith's relationship with "bodyguard" because that was the very beginning of their relationship. In addition, these all encompassing charts also describe Cloud and Tifa's relationship as "childhood friends" because that was the very beginning of their relationship.

But what makes the FFVII 10th Anniversary Ultimania different is that it includes two charts, one for FFVII and one for AC. And as I described above, the FFVII chart tells us how Cloud's relationship with Aerith begins in FFVII by saying he was her "bodyguard", and the AC chart tells us how Cloud's relationship with Aerith begins in AC by saying he feels "guilt" towards her. But we all know that Cloud become more than Aerith's bodyguard in FFVII, and we all know Cloud's guilt is removed at the end of AC. So my point is that the FFVII chart and the AC chart tells us how Cloud and Aerith's relationship *began* during both FFVII and AC.

However, Cloud and Tifa are described as "childhood friends" in both charts despite the HAHW scene supposedly moving them beyond "childhood friends".

Therefore, because the FFVII 10th Anniversary Ultimania has two charts and not a single all encompassing chart, the description for Cloud and Tifa's relationship should be different for both charts as it is for Cloud and Aerith. The FFVII chart should tell us how Cloud and Tifa's relationship began in FFVII, and the AC chart should tell us how their relationship began in AC. This means that if the HAHW scene made them into an official couple, or if they became lovers during CoT, they should not be described as "childhood friends" in the AC chart. Period.

So the HAHW is now canon? I'll accept that. But no the fact that SE favored the HAHW over the date is relevant. The fact that they had around 8 quotes describing the HAHW scene and including it to game summaries prove they favor it over the date scene.

Dismantled is also decanonized by Crisis Core, I would have considered it canon if CC wasn't released. How would you explain Zack meeting Aerith while she's selling flowers?

I honestly don't know how many times SE has mentioned the Cloud x Aerith date. On the top of my head I believe there are four times SE has mentioned it.

But if something is canon it's canon. It doesn't matter how many times SE *mentions* it.

Because Tifa loves Cloud and by mutual feelings Cloud loves her back effectively. Aerith loves Cloud but your evidences of Cloud loving Aerith back romantically are lacking.

Please review THIS post to see all of my evidence.

It's clear that Tifa is someone's koibito, and Cloud is a woman's koibito.

Aerith is referred to as "the woman" in the story where the koibito quote comes from.

Cloud wavering between two heroines does not prove there is no answer. And the sentence made sure it's in the beginning of the game.

I'm using this quote in conjunction with the HAHW scene, the CxA date, and the two "koibito" quotes to paint a picture that the LTD is up to interpretation.

It's a fact that he loved back Tifa because their feelings are mutual.

No. No. No. No.

Cloud loved Aerith back, too. It's just that Aerith didn't know it. Cloud is her "koibito".

And the question is not, "Which couple expressed mutual feelings?" -- the question is, "Who does Cloud love?"

The answer: Cloud loved/loves both Aerith and Tifa.

Nobody is saying living together is an ultimate proof, cite anyone who said that. If that is true then Avalanche is one big orgy.

Here is the response I gave to Tres:
Many users have used the word "cohabiting" as one of their reasons for why Cloud x Tifa are canon. So my point is -- Cid x Shera cohabit in FFVII but are not in a romantic relationship.

In other words, what makes Cid x Shera an official canon couple is not their cohabitation, but their marriage. Something Cloud and Tifa do not have.

Shera lives with Cid to atone for her mistake, Cloud and Tifa live together by their own decision. They want a home, they got entrusted with Marlene and eventually adopted Denzel. Note that it was Tifa who proposed adopting him.

The point is that people can live together for multiple different reasons, not just romantic reasons.

Tifa discussed with Cloud and Marlene about how she wanted to welcome Denzel into their family. Cloud nodded silently, but Marlene was full of joy.- Case of Tifa

The family Marlene invited Denzel into includes her Father, Barret.

No Cloud and Tifa meets the same standard as other canon couples. The only thing people nitpick is that their romantic expression is off-screen. They have clear romantic feelings the same as other canon couples, and Cloti quotes even outnumber quotes about Tuna, Squinoa and Cerosa combined.

Tres brought up something similar. Here is my response:
To say that expressing mutual feelings is all that is required to be in a relationship is making the assumption that expressing mutual feelings always leads to a relationship. I prefer not to make this assumption, which is why I believe expressing mutual feelings has to be substantiated with an official statement by SE, or an undeniable example of romantic love in order to move to official *canon* status.

With Cloud and Tifa, it is abundantly clear that expressing mutual feelings does not always lead to a romantic relationship because 1. the relationship charts 2. Nomura's quote 3. Tifa not knowing if Cloud loves her and 4. the living arrangement at Seventh Heaven.

No, the main hero and heroine doesn't necessarily receive more character development. And more character development does not equate to romance.

Is it the rule or the exception that the main hero and heroine receive more relationship development?

The bottom line is that it's only fair to compare heros and heroines to other heros and heroines. That's comparing apples to apples.

What does other canon couples have the Cloti doesn't? Tuna, Squinoa and ZidanexGarnet has no marriage involved. What is the difference between a kiss and a hug with respect to feelings? Kissing is more love? Hugging is less love?

For starters, there is no LTD so there is no dispute about their canon status.

A love triangle where a hero wavers between two heroines means that two pairings are possible. This means that evidence will be provided for *both* pairings. In order to declare that one couple is canon over the other, you have to go above and beyond a normal standard of proof. There has to be compelling and undeniable evidence that one pairing is canon and the other isn't. But in the absence of a love triangle, you do not have to determine which couple has stronger evidence because there is only one couple to pick from.

How would you define an "undeniable proof?" How can you deny the mutual romantic feelings Cloud and Tifa have for each other?

Mutual romantic feeings =/= romantic relationship. I've already explained why above.

And even if we take the game only, then Cloti is undeniably canon with the HAHW being canon (which you admitted.) And there is also the Lifestream scene, the promise which is shared by many couples. Tifa's resemblance to Garnet and Rinoa too maybe.

Taking the game into account only would mean that Cloud is shown to have romantic feelings for both Aerith and Tifa because of the CxA date, and the HAHW scene.

And why is that when they're given an opportunity to describe Tifa, they made sure that she's a koibito?

...and Cloud is Aerith's koibito? Moot point. Both pairings have equal evidence.

Your argument in the first part is fair enough, but the last sentence ruins it. Like I told you, childhood friends do no negate romance, just like in Wakka and Lulu's case.

Ugh. Do you not understand what I'm saying?

Cloud and Tifa's relationship is being compared between two charts. The FFVII chart and the AC chart. If their relationship had evolved beyond "childhood friends," the FFVII chart and the AC chart should not have the same description.

But we do not know if Lulu and Wakka's chart is referring to FFX only or FFX-2 as well.

Again -- all encompassing charts almost always tell us the *beginning* of a relationship. But if there is two charts talking about two specific time periods, like we had for Cloud and Tifa, it means there should be a change in the relationship description. However, Cloud and Tifa are described as "childhood friends" in both the FFVII and AC chart. This means that their relationship did no *evolve* beyond "childhood friends".

But because Lulu and Wakka's chart was *probably* all encompassing, it used the beginning of their relationship, which is childhood friends.

In addition, Lulu and Wakka get married and have a child together. Cloud and Tifa do not have anything remotely similar to that. Therefore, even though the relationship chart doesn't say Lulu and Wakka are in a romantic relationship, we have undeniable evidence that they are in a romantic relationship because they are married. Cloud and Tifa do not have undeniable evidence. That's the difference.

Because their romance is not actually very relevant to FFVII more than their childhood connection.

But one chart was for FFVII and one chart was for AC. Why are the relationship descriptions the same for both?

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Since BlankBeat is literally just repeating himself at this point, I'm going to copy and paste the only stuff I've said that I care to see him understand:

----
You speak as though Cloud's affections exist along a spectrum with Aerith at one end and Tifa at the other, with each point brought up bringing him closer to one and taking him further from the other. That's not how affection works and it isn't how you should be reading the material.

Nevermind that Cloud isn't obligated to end up with either of them at any point. Both women have their own "scale," so to speak, and neither woman's scale affects the other's.

Cloud can be in love with one of them, live with her, raise a child with her, and the other -- whom he can't do those same things with for obvious reasons -- will still occupy an especial place in his heart 'til the day he dies. That's how affections actually work.

You don't look at Rachel and Celes in FFVI and ask, "Well, which did Locke do X for? Which did he do Y with? Which did he say Z to?" He loves them both, has done remarkable things for both, has shared precious memories with both, and has said tender things to both. Again, he loves both.

Though -- and this is ironic for what will be obvious reasons -- his affections for one became bogged down in guilt, and he was unwilling to let himself move on with the other until the woman he had a sense of guilt over told him it was okay to go on with his life.

Understand that love is not a zero-sum game. Just as a parent need not reserve all their love for one child, a person isn't restricted to feeling romantic inklings for only one person either.
----
----
"He loves both" is not the same as "up to interpretation." He simply loves both, just as Locke loves both Rachel and Celes.
----

And, yeah, I'm going to quote what Ryu said about Maiden as well:

While that's not how 'unequivocal proof' works, then wouldn't Maiden's having Aerith trusting all the feelings in her heart to Tifa fulfill the same burden? Living girl trusting the man she loved with her living rival?
If Rachel telling Locke to love Celes is proof they have a relationship later, then Aerith's trusting all of her emotions for Cloud to Tifa, who gets to live together with Cloud, should serve the same proof.

 

[Murdim]

Hiya for the past two weeks maybe longer I have been reading through this thread and I honestly can't believe how everybody here is treating Junko and Blankbeat, guests who have polity came in and just wanted a friendly debate only to be called liars just because they don't ship Cloti and see something else as canon.

Not only is it extremely rude but it's also really callous. Junko and BB have done nothing wrong. They just came in these forums to debate a video game ship with everybody here; only to be called shocking things like liars and what they're saying is dumb and stupid.

It would be tough to reply to like more than one person at once with tons of TL;DR posts and yet you keep on jumping on them for missing things. Wait a while for them to catch up ? It's not that difficult.

There's a reasons why Clerith's hate this place and why these forums have a hugely bad rep, because they come in and get called " liars " or what they believe in is stupid.

Also Cloti is "fact " and " Not Opinion " and if somebody disagrees with Cloti not being " fact " they are the sins of the earth ? You are not Square-Enix, you no NOT work for Square and you did NOT create this game. It is up to SE the main company to say whether Cloti or Clerith is fact or Canon, not you. If you all believe that you are so above the main bloody company then you really need to take a seat and step down.

I apologized if I sound angry, that's because I am. In fact I'm boiling with anger. If you all see Cloti is canon that is fine; but not everybody does. I hate the FFVII LTD so much. I don't understand why we can't just ship whatever we desire Cloud to be with and just say " Okay, that's cool man " if somebody ships the man with somebody else, even if it's bloody Sephiroth.

At the moment I feel like most of the members here are terrible shippers, and if there was some sort of school for shipping I wouldn't mind using money to take you all there. Ever heard of " respect what other people ship " ? No. Don't call them bloody liars or that they're not factual just because some FF VII fans don't see Cloud having a future relationship with Miss Boobs.

If you see Cloti as "fact " and the "truth " that's fine, though not everybody does, so please stop forcing down your preferred ship down BB and Junko's throats. Do you know how many Cleriths who debate here come out feeling really hurt and extremely internet bullied ? Quite a shocking number.

And if you're thinking " Oh if they can't handle the heat they shouldn't of come into the kitchen " Debating can be fun and it can be a intelligent conversation believe it or not. Not internet bullying or trying to down other people's ship with bombs.

Thanks for reading this. You can insult me, gang up or me as much you want. Whatever. I'm just so sick of seeing Junk and BB being ganged up here and being treated like they're worthless just because they see Clerith as canon instead of Cloti.

... wow.

Congratulations, you actually managed to piss me off. In a thread about fictional pairings. I didn't think such a thing was even possible. You learn new things every day. Thank you very much.

Junko has never been called a liar. The closest thing to a personal attack made against her was when NORG called her "ignorant" while using a FFVIII quote. It wasn't very mean, he was half-joking, and it didn't involve anyone else.

People aren't calling BlankBeat dishonest just because they disagree with him. People are calling him dishonest mainly because they actually feel he is being dishonest in this discussion.

When Hawkeye got angry against BlankBeat for his bad faith arguments, most people asked him to calm down, whether or not they actually agreed with him about BB.

Absolutely nobody in this thread is arguing that you can't ship Clerith because it's against canon, and you know that perfectly well. You won't find many people here who dislike Aerith or the idea of a romantic relationship between her and Cloud. True, some of us do not like the idea of an ongoing romance after Aerith's death, but if you think we are trying to prevent anyone else from enjoying it as well, you're wrong.

You claim that everyone should just learn to debate each other's pairing choices in a polite, respectful ways and without trying to use canon as a weapon. I would wholeheartedly agree with you about this. Mixing facts and preferences only leads to stupid situations like ship wars, hatedoms, and greedy IP owners having to cater to both parts of a fractured fanbase.

The thing is... well, you are kind of a huge hypocrite, to put it bluntly.

• First of all: the current discussion with BlankBeat, the one you are criticising so much, is all about canon. Bringing up preferences in a discussion about canon is just as harmful as the opposite, because the end result is the same.
• Clerith supporters who come in TLS to evangelise for their pairing are unjustly bullied. On the other hand, Cloti supporters should stop "forcing [their] preferred ship down [your] throats". They shouldn't try to argue when people disagree with them about "facts".
• The Cloti side of the LTD are placing themselves above Square and "need to step down", but Junko and BlankBeat should not be "treated like they're worthless just because they see Clerith as canon".
• "Miss Boobs". So much for "respecting what other people ship".

If you really don't care that much about canon, try to stay away from the big, mean debate about it. Don't get me wrong, this thread is ALSO about shipping preferences, and the two discussions are intrinsically linked. Nonetheless, if you want to post a reply examining why Clerith is your favorite ship, then I definitely think you should.


I don't think the answers will be nearly as callous or insulting as you iimagine them to be. There's no reason for you to be bullied because of the things you like. Just... don't interpret the things that are said about canon as either offences against, or justifications for your shipping preferences.

 

[Ⓐaron]

If you really don't care that much about canon, try to stay away from the big, mean debate about it. Don't get me wrong, this thread is ALSO about shipping preferences, and the two discussions are intrinsically linked. Nonetheless, if you want to post a reply examining why Clerith is your favorite ship, then I definitely think you should.

We actually do have a separate thread for discussing preferences between the couples of FFVII rather than canon, but no one uses it because they'd rather participate in the same stale circlejerk of arguments that's been going on for the last fifteen years.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

When Hawkeye got angry against BlankBeat for his bad faith arguments, most people asked him to calm down, whether or not they actually agreed with him about BB.

Yeah, I did lose my cool that time, and I was called out on it by a few people, including the site owner. When making an appriasal of TheLifestream.net as a whole, try not to lose perspective of stuff like that, as well as how little the LTD actually matters to most of the people on this site.

We actually do have a separate thread for discussing preferences between the couples of FFVII rather than canon, but no one uses it because they'd rather participate in the same stale circlejerk of arguments that's been going on for the last fifteen years.

That could be the LTD marketing slogan:

"Join the same stale circlejerk of arguments that's been going on for the past fifteen years! Now with more translations!"

 

[Unlucky]

You know what.. I think a big part of why people are close to throttling each other's throats in this debate is because we're not on the same page. Correct me if I'm wrong, but one side (obviously the Clerith side) believes that it's up to interpretation, and engages on the LTD to say why they think it's Clerith. The other side (Cloti) is saying that it's not up to interpretation because there is a canon, and the canon is Cloti. It doesn't match up.

The Clerith side thinks it's ok to use their interpretations as weapons in this debate because of their 'up to interpretation' stance. Hence they get offended when their interpretation is discarded and deemed irrelevant (and I'm not too sure about this one-- but the reason why they find it so easy to dismiss "Cloti facts" as "opinion" because they think we're battling interpretations here!). Conversely, the Cloti side dismisses these interpretations because they believe this is a debate of facts.

To make things clearer, there has to be a debate first and a conclusion to whether there's a canon or not. What most Cleriths are doing here is proclaiming "no canon" while simultaneously saying "it's Clerith!". And that's when the intellectual dishonesty kicks in.

This is going nowhere.

Now, if some Clerith agrees that there's a canon, and that the canon is Clerith, then that puts us on the same page. The debate now will be WHAT is that canon. (I believe this used to be their stance, I don't know why that changed).

edit: I just wanna make it clear that some people who are on the Cloti side are not shippers. They simply believe that there's a canon pairing which happened to be Cloti.

 

[BlankBeat]

:: Disclaimer: part of the reason you see me repeat my answers is because multiple members use the *same* arguments in their responses to me ::

While that's not how 'unequivocal proof' works, then wouldn't Maiden's having Aerith trusting all the feelings in her heart to Tifa fulfill the same burden? Living girl trusting the man she loved with her living rival?
If Rachel telling Locke to love Celes is proof they have a relationship later, then Aerith's trusting all of her emotions for Cloud to Tifa, who gets to live together with Cloud, should serve the same proof.

I never mentioned a love triangle, actually. I mentioned evidence that the two actually have a relationship.

Please read my explanation all the way through. I think it might help shed some light on things.

As I said before -- what makes a couple *canon* in my eyes is expressing mutual feelings in addition to 1 of 2 things.

1. An indisputable romantic moment.
2. An official statement by SE.

Squall x Rinoa have an indisputable romantic moment. Tidus x Yuna have an indisputable romantic moment. And all the *main* FF couples have quotes and evidence from SE in official material describing them as the *only* possible canon couple for their game (and no, I'm not going to find this for you. I've seen the material before and I'm sure you have, too).

But as I said before, the reason the LTD requires more proof is because a love triangle means that two pairings are possible. This becomes especially true for FFVII because we have a, "hero that wavers between two heroines". This means that evidence will be provided for *two* pairings. In order to declare that one couple is canon over the other, you have to go above and beyond a normal standard of proof. There has to be a compelling piece of evidence that one pairing is canon and the other is not.

So when I look at FFVII and the fact that Cloud is pictured with his two love interests in two canon versions of romantic scenes on the "For The One I Love Page", that is *not* a compelling piece of evidence that one pairing is canon over the other. To me, the FTOIL page tells me that these two scenes are equal and that Cloud can love either Aerith or Tifa.

But why is the FTOIL page compelling evidence for the other couples? Because there is *no* LTD, therefore there is no grey area because only one couple can be canon. But the reason the FTOIL page is not as compelling for Cloud and Tifa is because there is an LTD and there is a grey area. Plus, Cloud is pictured with his two love rivals in two canon scenes of romance.

Now, I will go into why the FTOIL page is compelling evidence for Celes x Locke, even though there is an LTD in FFVI. This is *very* important:

1. Locke x Celes appear on the FTOIL page in a canon scene of romance, but Locke x Rachel do not.

This means one of two things: either Locke x Rachel do not have a romantic scene equal to Locke x Celes (which means that Locke x Celes has stronger evidence) or it means that the FTOIL page is canonizing Locke x Celes because they are the *only* couple from that love triangle to be portrayed on the FTOIL page. To me, this is meeting the LTD standard of proof that tells us one couple should be declared canon over the other.

If Cloud x Tifa were the only FFVII couple to be portrayed on the FTOIL like Locke x Celes were the only couple from FFVI to be portrayed, Cloud x Tifa would also meet the same standard of proof that is required to determine that one couple should be declared canon over the other in a love triangle.

But because Cloud is pictured with his two love rivals in two romantic scenes that are both canon, Cloud x Tifa do not meet the same standard of proof that Locke x Celes meet.

2. The other compelling piece of evidence that Locke x Celes should be declared canon over Locke x Rachel is because Rachel tells Locke to move on and love Celes. To me, this is also meeting the higher standard of proof necessary to declare one couple canon over the other in a love triangle. If Aerith had said to Cloud about Tifa, "Give your love to the one who now dwells within your heart...love her..as you loved me," the LTD would be over.

However, neither of these pieces of compelling evidence are there for Cloud x Tifa. The FTOIL page pictures Cloud with both Aerith and Tifa in two canon scenes of romance, and Aerith does not tell Cloud to love Tifa. In fact, the ending of FFVII tells us Cloud wants to meet Aerith in the Promised Land.

And the reason I do not accept Advent Children as proof is because 1. the relationship charts that describe Cloud and Tifa as "childhood friends" *only* 2. Everyone in AVALANCHE is dead (and Barret is away on work), which means there are only two people for Denzel to consider his parents by default — Cloud and Tifa 3. Just because Barret is away on work does not mean he isn’t apart of the Seventh Heaven family. Does a parent who travels for work suddenly become excluded from their family? 4. Cloud and Tifa are living together because of rare and unforeseen circumstances. This does not mean they are in a romantic *relationship*. Just look at Cid and Shera living together during FFVII 5. Barret is included in the Seventh Heaven family when Cloud says they will all find a place to call home *together* 6. Barret tells Marlene to take care of the “family” while he is gone 7. Barret rushes back to defend his “family” when he hears they’ve been attacked 7. Marlene is Barret's daughter. 8. the living arrangement at Seventh Heaven where Cloud has a bed in his own room 9. Nomura’s quote admitting that he doesn’t know the status of Cloud and Tifa’s relatinoship after FFVII ends 10. Tifa admitting she doesn’t know if Cloud loves her

--------------------

Since BlankBeat is literally just repeating himself at this point, I'm going to copy and paste the only stuff I've said that I care to see him understand:

----
You speak as though Cloud's affections exist along a spectrum with Aerith at one end and Tifa at the other, with each point brought up bringing him closer to one and taking him further from the other. That's not how affection works and it isn't how you should be reading the material.

Nevermind that Cloud isn't obligated to end up with either of them at any point. Both women have their own "scale," so to speak, and neither woman's scale affects the other's.

Cloud can be in love with one of them, live with her, raise a child with her, and the other -- whom he can't do those same things with for obvious reasons -- will still occupy an especial place in his heart 'til the day he dies. That's how affections actually work.

You don't look at Rachel and Celes in FFVI and ask, "Well, which did Locke do X for? Which did he do Y with? Which did he say Z to?" He loves them both, has done remarkable things for both, has shared precious memories with both, and has said tender things to both. Again, he loves both.

Though -- and this is ironic for what will be obvious reasons -- his affections for one became bogged down in guilt, and he was unwilling to let himself move on with the other until the woman he had a sense of guilt over told him it was okay to go on with his life.

Understand that love is not a zero-sum game. Just as a parent need not reserve all their love for one child, a person isn't restricted to feeling romantic inklings for only one person either.
----
----
"He loves both" is not the same as "up to interpretation." He simply loves both, just as Locke loves both Rachel and Celes.
----

And, yeah, I'm going to quote what Ryu said about Maiden as well:

I spent a lot of time writing this in my response to you, so I'm really curious as to what you think of it:

In most of the all encompassing FFVII charts they describe Cloud as Aerith's "bodyguard" and Tifa as Cloud's "childhood friend". That's because that is how both of these relationships *BEGAN*. Therefore, in the all encompassing charts, it seems routine to describe the relationship with a description of how the relationship *began*.

But by including an FFVII chart and an AC chart, it was designed to tell us how relationships were as they pertained specifically to FFVII and AC. Again, please let me explain.

In FFVII, Cloud and Tifa started off as "childhood friends". So that's why they are described as "childhood friends" in the FFVII chart. The AC chart should say they started off as "lovers" because of the HAHW scene. But the fact is -- SE describes them as "childhood friends" in *BOTH* the FFVII chart and AC chart.

The reason I know that including the FFVII and AC charts was meant to highlight changes is because it shows a change in Cloud and Aerith's relationship.

Cloud began as Aerith's "bodyguard" in the FFVII chart, but then felt "guilt" for Aerith in the AC chart. That is telling us that a change in their relationship took place between FFVII and AC.

Now here is where it might get confusing, but I really want to make this point known:

Obviously Cloud evolves beyond "bodyguard" in FFVII, and obviously Cloud's "guilt" is removed at the end of AC. But this proves my theory that relationship charts almost always tell us how the relationships *begins*. In other words, because Cloud is described as Aerith's "bodyguard" in the FFVII chart (even though he evolves beyond that in the game), and because Cloud is described as having "guilt" towards Aerith in the AC chart (even though his "guilt" is removed by the end of AC), this tells me that the charts are describing how the relationship *begins* in both FFVII and AC.

Therefore, it is clear that these two charts are meant to tell us how the relationships began in both FFVII and AC. But because Cloud and Tifa are described as "childhood friends" in both the FFVII and AC charts, it means that they begin as "childhood friends" in both time periods. But if the HAHW scene made them a romantic couple, they should have been described as "lovers" not "childhood friends" in the AC chart.

In addition, the all encompassing charts found in the Final Fantasy VII Ultimania Omega and the Final Fantasy 20th Anniversary Ultimania (which are not separated by FFVII and AC), describe Cloud and Aerith's relationship with "bodyguard" because that was the very beginning of their relationship. In addition, these all encompassing charts also describe Cloud and Tifa's relationship as "childhood friends" because that was the very beginning of their relationship.

But what makes the FFVII 10th Anniversary Ultimania different is that it includes two charts, one for FFVII and one for AC. And as I described above, the FFVII chart tells us how Cloud's relationship with Aerith begins in FFVII by saying he was her "bodyguard", and the AC chart tells us how Cloud's relationship with Aerith begins in AC by saying he feels "guilt" towards her. But we all know that Cloud become more than Aerith's bodyguard in FFVII, and we all know Cloud's guilt is removed at the end of AC. So my point is that the FFVII chart and the AC chart tells us how Cloud and Aerith's relationship *began* during both FFVII and AC.

However, Cloud and Tifa are described as "childhood friends" in both charts despite the HAHW scene supposedly moving them beyond "childhood friends".

Therefore, because the FFVII 10th Anniversary Ultimania has two charts and not a single all encompassing chart, the description for Cloud and Tifa's relationship should be different for both charts as it is for Cloud and Aerith. The FFVII chart should tell us how Cloud and Tifa's relationship began in FFVII, and the AC chart should tell us how their relationship began in AC. This means that if the HAHW scene made them into an official couple, or if they became lovers during CoT, they should not be described as "childhood friends" in the AC chart. Period.

 

[Kermitu Kleric Katie]

::


.

As I said before -- what makes a couple *canon* in my eyes is expressing mutual feelings in addition to 1 of 2 things.

1. An indisputable romantic moment.
2. An official statement by SE.

By these standards, CloTi is canon, as it fits all three, while clerith isn't, as it fits none.

Oh, and Ryu, the FFX-2 Ultimania says Wakka and Lulu are married.

 

[Ryushikaze]

So, BB, want to address the REST of my goddamn post?

You fucking wonder why we call you dishonest when you ignore 80% of what I wrote.

Also, NORG, if it did, then I'll concede that particular point- even though, like I said, I'd just assumed they were anyways- but do you know where in the 10-2 books it is? And also maybe a scan?

 

[BlankBeat]

By these standards, CloTi is canon, as it fits all three, while clerith isn't, as it fits none.

Oh, and Ryu, the FFX-2 Ultimania says Wakka and Lulu are married.

Apparently you didn't read the rest of my post.

A love triangle requires evidence that goes above and beyond the *normal* standard of evidence. Why? Because a love triangle means there is evidence that supports *two* pairings.

The criteria I used to determine whether a couple is canon:
1. An indisputable romantic moment.
2. An official statement by SE.

But because FFVII is a love triangle, *BOTH* CxA and CxT meet these requirements.

The first requirement is "an indisputable romantic moment". Well, the canon CxA date is on the FTOIL page, and the HAHW scene is also on the FTOIL page. By Cloud being pictured with his two love interests in two canon scenes of romance on the FTOIL page, this means that both of these scenes *PROVE* Cloud loves both women. Therefore, *BOTH* CxA and CxT meet the first requirement.

The second requirement is an "official statement by SE". Well, the "koibito" quotes are enough for *BOTH* CxA and CxT to meet the second requirement.

Again -- this would be enough for a *normal* couple to be declared canon, but it is not enough for a couple in a love triangle to be declared canon because there is equal evidence for both pairings. Therefore, *something* has to tell us that one couple should be declared canon over the other.

For example, Celes x Locke are canon and meet the additional requirements that are required for love triangles. Cloud and Tifa, however, do not meet these additional requirements:

1. Locke x Celes appear on the FTOIL page in a canon scene of romance, but Locke x Rachel do not.

This means one of two things: either Locke x Rachel do not have a romantic scene equal to Locke x Celes (which means that Locke x Celes has stronger evidence) or it means that the FTOIL page is canonizing Locke x Celes because they are the *only* couple from the FFVI love triangle to be portrayed on the FTOIL page. To me, this is meeting the LTD standard of proof that tells us one couple should be declared canon over the other.

If Cloud x Tifa were the only FFVII couple to be portrayed on the FTOIL like Locke x Celes were the only couple from FFVI to be portrayed, Cloud x Tifa would also meet the same standard of proof that is required to determine that one couple should be declared canon over the other in a love triangle.

But because Cloud is pictured with his two love rivals in two romantic scenes that are both canon, Cloud x Tifa do not meet the same standard of proof that Locke x Celes meet.

2. The other compelling piece of evidence that Locke x Celes should be declared canon over Locke x Rachel is because Rachel tells Locke to move on and love Celes.

To me, this is also meeting the higher standard of proof necessary to declare one couple canon over the other in a love triangle. If Aerith had said to Cloud about Tifa, "Give your love to the one who now dwells within your heart...love her..as you loved me," the LTD would be over.

However, neither of these pieces of compelling evidence are there for Cloud x Tifa. The FTOIL page pictures Cloud with both Aerith and Tifa in two canon scenes of romance, and Aerith does not tell Cloud to love Tifa. In fact, the ending of FFVII tells us Cloud wants to meet Aerith in the Promised Land.

Therefore, both CxA and CxT have romantic scenes that prove Cloud loves both Aerith and Tifa because both of these romantic scenes are canon and included on the FTOIL page. Both couples also have official statements by SE supporting them. This means neither couple is canon over the other.

And the reason I do not accept Advent Children as proof is because 1. the relationship charts that describe Cloud and Tifa as "childhood friends" *only* 2. Everyone in AVALANCHE is dead (and Barret is away on work), which means there are only two people for Denzel to consider his parents by default — Cloud and Tifa 3. Just because Barret is away on work does not mean he isn’t apart of the Seventh Heaven family. Does a parent who travels for work suddenly become excluded from their family? 4. Cloud and Tifa are living together because of rare and unforeseen circumstances. This does not mean they are in a romantic *relationship*. Just look at Cid and Shera living together during FFVII 5. Barret is included in the Seventh Heaven family when Cloud says they will all find a place to call home *together* 6. Barret tells Marlene to take care of the “family” while he is gone 7. Barret rushes back to defend his “family” when he hears they’ve been attacked 7. Marlene is Barret's daughter. 8. the living arrangement at Seventh Heaven where Cloud has a bed in his own room 9. Nomura’s quote admitting that he doesn’t know the status of Cloud and Tifa’s relatinoship after FFVII ends 10. Tifa admitting she doesn’t know if Cloud loves her

 

[I Am Not Me]

edit: I just wanna make it clear that some people who are on the Cloti side are not shippers. They simply believe that there's a canon pairing which happened to be Cloti.

I wanna make it clear too, in case I'm labelled a 'mean Cloti', that I am, first and foremost, a Clack. I am a 'mean Clack'. I look down on all you Clotis and Cleriths and I will never get tired of saying that. The Blue Side will forever be superior.

I ship Cloti and Clerith too. Regardless of what I believe is canon (it's Clack, duh) I enjoy all my ships without misinterpreting the story or the characters.

So don't think for a second that everyone here is anti-Clerith. No, we're just pro-canon.

If anything, you guys are the anti-Cloti, what with calling Tifa "boobs", refusing to acknowledge Cloti even as an "interpretation" (much more as canon), nitpicking anything pertaining to Cloud and Tifa, having impossible standards for Cloti, dismissing all other evidence about their feelings for and relationship with each other. Anything with Cloti and you spit on it like it's the most disgusting thing in the world. So who's insulting who now?

Our stand is that even if Cloud and Aerith were to have feelings for each other, it doesn't negate what Cloud and Tifa has or vice versa. If any of you can provide ample proof and a strong argument that one negates the other, I would love to see it. No, I won't accept opinion being used against the fact that Cloud and Tifa being in a relationship doesn't stop Cloud from loving Aerith anyway.

Facts versus facts only, thank you.

Oh, and saying "it's all up to interpretation" but saying "Clerith is intended" is pretty much being dishonest. Have only one stand please, so people don't get sick of stupid and redundant arguments, because this makes them mean. Being dishonest and unfair makes people mean too.

 

[BlankBeat]

I want to make this clear that all of these quotes prove absolutely nothing:

Still bearing the pain from her past, she lived together with Cloud, Marlene and Denzel, a boy who had sought shelter at the slum’s Church. ~FFVII 10th Anniversary Ultimania Tifa Lockhart Character Profile p 42-47

Cloud brought Denzel back from the slum’s church and from then, it became the four of them living together ~FFVII 10th Anniversary Ultimania Tifa Lockhart Character Profile p 42-47

Now running a delivery business while helping out Tifa with the newly opened “Seventh Heaven” bar, Cloud, Tifa, Marlene and Denzel lived together like a family. However, when Cloud contracts Geostigma he disappears. Behind these actions lies feelings of guilt towards his past failure to protect people who were important to him, but through his battle with Kadaj’s gang, the legacy of Jenova, he regains the courage to face reality. ~FFVII 10th Anniversary Ultimania Cloud Strife Profile p36-41

I highlighted the three words of importance: "live"/"living"/"lived"

Barret isn't *living* with them because he is away on missions. So why would he be included in *ANY* of the quotes that talk about them *living* together? But just because Barret doesn't *live* with them doesn't mean he isn't apart of the family.



What's *VERY* ironic is that *THIS* quote Cloti's use to exclude Barret proves my EXACT point.

"After visiting various locations with Tifa and Barret, Tifa opened the “Seventh Heaven” bar. Before setting off on a journey, Barret left Marlene in Cloud and Tifa’s care, and the three of them began living together. ~FFVII 10th Anniversary Ultimania Cloud Strife Profile"

It says that the "three of them [Cloud, Tifa, Marlene]" began *living* together *AFTER* Barret set off on a "journey".

This unequivocally proves that when the words "live"/"living"/"lived" are used to describe Cloud, Tifa, Marlene, and Denzel, it is *ONLY* excluding Barret because Barret is not *TECHNICALLY* "living" with them.

The next quote used as proof to exclude Barret:
"Cloud brings Denzel back from the slum’s church and Denzel joins Cloud’s family." ~FFVII 10th Anniversary Complete Timeline

All this says is the word "family". It doesn't describe who is in Cloud's family.

And the final quote used as proof to exclude Barret:
"When he awakes, there was his friends. There were the children, freed from their fatal illness. Tifa and Marlene, and Denzel asking for Cloud to heal his Geostigma— his family were waiting. Engulfed in celebration, he realizes where he is meant to live. He realizes that he was able to forgive himself." ~SOURCE: 10th AU, ACC Playback

Ok. I'll give you this *ONE* quote.

But all of these quotes prove that Barret *IS* apart of the Seventh Heaven Family:

“Yeah, let’s go home” Cloud agreed.
“Where to?” Barret asked.
“Our suspended reality.”
“What the hell do you mean by that?”
“Our normal lives.”
“And where do we have something like that?”
“We’ll find one.” Cloud looked at Tifa and said, “Right?”
“Yeah!” cried the cheerful Marlene. Tifa nodded too, but just like Barret, she wondered where they had a normal life. ~CoT

“I’ll take care of Cloud and Tifa!”
Barret turned round and shouted, “Do your best!” His voice was a little shaky. “Unite the family’s strength and keep at it!” ~CoT

"Marlene who had always slept with Tifa, slept with her foster father Barret the night before he left. Their conversations could be heard late into the night. Early next morning, Barret set off." ~CoT

"Upon finding out that Edge was under attack during the midst of his travels, he rushed over towards the crisis faced by his family and companions." ~Barret Wallace's Character Profile

[Funny, Barret rushes back to defend the family that Cloud and him *established* at Seventh Heaven before he left on his journey.]

"Although Marlene is not his real daughter, Barret has a deep affection toward her. If possible, he would have liked to be together with her all the time, however, he could not bring her on perilous trips and their time spent living apart is actually longer. Entrusting Marlene to Elmyra's care in FFVII and Tifa's in AC, he fights hard day after day for the future of his "daughter"."

[If Marlene is Barret's daughter, then he is part of the family. Although he is not *living* with the family, he *IS* apart of the family nonetheless.]

“A family.” (Tifa)
“Yeah.” (Marlene)
Marlene cheerfully answered in response to Tifa’s murmur.
“I’ll put Cloud in our family too.” (Marlene)
“I appreciate that.” (Cloud) ~Revised CoT

[Marlene puts Cloud in the family that includes her Father, Barret. If this is Cloud's family, why did Marlene do the inviting? Shouldn't Cloud have invited Marlene into *HIS* family?]



The best the Cloti side can hope is that SE is inconsistent. But considering there is many more quotes that Barret is included in the family, I'd say it is proven, without a doubt, that Barret is apart of the Seventh Heaven family.

 

[jazzflower92]

Actually the arguments you present don't actually prove your case and actually show more reason why CloudxTifa are canon.Barret is an extension of the family that Cloud and Tifa after defeating Sephiroth.He trusted Marlene's care into Cloud and Tifa's hands because he knows that they can and could take care of her while he was trying to rebuild Corel.

 

[I Am Not Me]

None of us are excluding Barret. What are you even talking about? Even if Barret were living and part of the Seventh Heaven family with Cloud, Tifa, and the kids, how does this exactly disprove Cloti?

What does Barret being in the Seventh Heaven family disprove about Cloud and Tifa's feelings for each other? Does he cock-block them off-screen or something? No, seriously, how are couples rooming with other people disprove that they are a couple?

A lot of married and live-in partners also live with other people. Children can have two sets of parents, maybe even more. You should check your local real life neighbors, friends and acquaintances for more details on the subject. Unless you're living in a world that only accepts your standards for how many families a person can have and how two people should have a relationship.

If you get married, does this mean the family you came from isn't your family anymore? After all, your arguments center on the fact that people can only have one family at a time. No extended families. No roomies. That's so cold of you.

Your train of thought is weird and full of biases. You see only what you want to see. It's like you don't even live in the same society as the rest of the world with the standards you use.

Clotis are so mean excluding Barret. You guys gotta stop.

 

[Unlucky]

Oh, and saying "it's all up to interpretation" but saying "Clerith is intended" is pretty much being dishonest. Have only one stand please, so people don't get sick of stupid and redundant arguments, because this makes them mean. Being dishonest and unfair makes people mean too.

And gives away what all these come down to: preference. And preference is VERY different from canon.

When you say "It's up to interpretation", and your interpretation is Clerith, then that's ultimately picking a side. You're a shipper, or if you don't wanna use that term, a Clerith supporter. Which is not bad in itself. You go ahead and enjoy your pairing. But, take note, by your own stance of 'no canon', Clerith is a preference, an interpretation, an opinion. It's not truth, and Cloti can co-exist with it.

Hence in that scenario, there will also be nothing to debate, because opinions cannot be debated.

So go ahead and debate to people that there is no canon. You're very much welcome to prove it. But stop debunking the possibility of the other pairing at the same time-- because that spits on the very face of your argument of 'up to interpretation', it makes you shit on yourself.

 

[Danseru-kun]

I believe what Blankbeat is doing is called goalpost shifting (sorry I never tried to memorize logicla fallacies.)

You see BB, what I can see for you is that you purposely make your standards of making Cloti canon as more evidences are presented. Also, you tend to invent standards that suit your idea of a love triangle.

You present Cloti and Clerith like it's some sort of spectrum using the reason that there's a love triangle:

Cloti <----------------|------------------> Clerith

You argue that the LTD is up to interpretation and there is no canon as long as the scale doesn't tip the the extreme side of the spectrum. You argue that the scale is in the middle because both have evidences and that only one couple can emerge as a winner. This is false because:

Love triangles can have the man loving both women
Love triangles can have the man not loving anyone
Having a love triangle in a story doesn't cancel facts
Evidence for both women does not negate each other

This is our scale:

Cloti -----------------------------> Canon
Clerith ------------------------------> Canon

You deny this fact because if you use this line of reasoning, Cloti is definitely canon as it meets the standard of many canon FF couples.

To save your stand despite all the evidence, you then use the "relationship chart" standard where if Cloti doesn't meet this, it's not canon. You deny that not all canon couples meet this, then you go use "marriage" as an undeniable proof ignoring the fact that many romantic couples do no marry out of many reasons.

And this is the largest hole in your reasoning:

Since the question has always been "Who does Cloud love?" *NOT* "Which couple expresses mutual feelings?*, and the "For the One I Love" page shows one *canon* scene of romance between Cloud and Aerith, and another *canon* scene of romance between Cloud and Tifa, this means that Cloud loves both Aerith and Tifa because he is pictured in two canon scenes of romance with two women on the "For the One I Love" page.

You use the standard of "Who Cloud loves" then outright admit the HAHW being canon. If we go by that kind of standard, then Cloti is canon because Cloti has been proven to love her. Cloud loves Tifa and this is canon. Then you go ahead and say "there's no proof of a romantic relationship after FFVII"

Which is irrelevant because we already answered who Cloud loves and this is Tifa. You ignored the fact that almost all FF couples don't have anything past their expression of romantic feelings.

And you argue again "because FFVII has a love triangle so the standards are different."

Now you see why people get annoyed?

I'm not going to waste my time anymore arguing that Barret is not a part of Cloud's family because that is actually irrelevant. Even if Barret is the main father of the household, how can that negate Cloti romance? Like what I said in tumblr, family of friends is staple in many stories, like The Walking Dead. Hershel being the father and Carol being the mother doesn't negate the romance of Glenn and Maggie. Rurouni Kenshin has Kenshin and Kaoru being the couple while technically Megumi is more like the mother figure in the family.

Bottomline: Cloti meets the standards that other canon FF couples met. It is a fallacy to use higher standards just because there's a presence of a love triangle, especially if these standards specifically target whatever Cloti doesn't have (like relationship chart upgrade) ignoring the fact that other canon couples who met the chart standard actually has less proof than Cloti. BB renders all the other significant evidences for Cloti just because they didn't meet a standard he preferred, and reason out "because there's a love triangle."

:/

 

[Strangelove]

None of us are excluding Barret. What are you even talking about? Even if Barret were living and part of the Seventh Heaven family with Cloud, Tifa, and the kids, how does this exactly disprove Cloti?

have you ever heard the term 'cockblocked'

 

[BlankBeat]

I
Love triangles can have the man loving both women
Love triangles can have the man not loving anyone
Having a love triangle in a story doesn't cancel facts
Evidence for both women does not negate each other

I agree with all of that.

But my point has been that you most prove why one couple in a love triangle is more canon than the other couple.

In the absence of a love triangle, there is no need to *compare* evidence because there is only *one* couple. But because love triangles inherently give evidence for two pairings, you have to explain why one couple is more canon than the other couple.

To me, CxA and CxT have equal evidence according to the FTOIL page and the "koibito" quotes. There is nothing that firmly established Cloti as canon according to SE (especially when we look at the relationship charts).

And although Celes x Locke and Celes x Rachel are in a love triangle and both pairings have evidence, I pointed out why Celes x Lock is canon and Celes x Rachel isn't.

Reason #1: Celes x Locke are the *only* FFVI couple on the FTOIL page.
Reason #2: Rachel gives Celes permission to *love* Locke.

Aerith doesn't give Cloud permission to love Tifa, and Cloud is shown in two canon scenes of romance with both of his confirmed love interests on the FTOIL page. Therefore, unlike Celes x Locke, nothing makes Cloti *canon*.

I also listed why AC does *NOT* prove anything about Cloud and Tifa's *romantic* relationship: 1. the relationship charts that describe Cloud and Tifa as "childhood friends" *only* 2. Everyone in AVALANCHE is dead (and Barret is away on work), which means there are only two people for Denzel to consider his parents by default &#8212; Cloud and Tifa 3. Just because Barret is away on work does not mean he isn&#8217;t apart of the Seventh Heaven family. Does a parent who travels for work suddenly become excluded from their family? 4. Cloud and Tifa are living together because of rare and unforeseen circumstances. This does not mean they are in a romantic *relationship*. Just look at Cid and Shera living together during FFVII 5. Barret is included in the Seventh Heaven family when Cloud says they will all find a place to call home *together* 6. Barret tells Marlene to take care of the &#8220;family&#8221; while he is gone 7. Barret rushes back to defend his &#8220;family&#8221; when he hears they&#8217;ve been attacked 7. Marlene is Barret's daughter. 8. the living arrangement at Seventh Heaven where Cloud has a bed in his own room 9. Nomura&#8217;s quote admitting that he doesn&#8217;t know the status of Cloud and Tifa&#8217;s relatinoship after FFVII ends 10. Tifa admitting she doesn&#8217;t know if Cloud loves her

If anything, there is just as much evidence in AC for Clerith as there is for Cloti.


Also -- I responded to *ALL* of your "family" quotes with this post. Do you have a response?

Still bearing the pain from her past, she lived together with Cloud, Marlene and Denzel, a boy who had sought shelter at the slum&#8217;s Church. ~FFVII 10th Anniversary Ultimania Tifa Lockhart Character Profile p 42-47

Cloud brought Denzel back from the slum&#8217;s church and from then, it became the four of them living together ~FFVII 10th Anniversary Ultimania Tifa Lockhart Character Profile p 42-47

Now running a delivery business while helping out Tifa with the newly opened &#8220;Seventh Heaven&#8221; bar, Cloud, Tifa, Marlene and Denzel lived together like a family. However, when Cloud contracts Geostigma he disappears. Behind these actions lies feelings of guilt towards his past failure to protect people who were important to him, but through his battle with Kadaj&#8217;s gang, the legacy of Jenova, he regains the courage to face reality. ~FFVII 10th Anniversary Ultimania Cloud Strife Profile p36-41

I highlighted the three words of importance: "live"/"living"/"lived"

Barret isn't *living* with them because he is away on missions. So why would he be included in *ANY* of the quotes that talk about them *living* together? But just because Barret doesn't *live* with them doesn't mean he isn't apart of the family.



What's *VERY* ironic is that *THIS* quote Cloti's use to exclude Barret proves my EXACT point.

"After visiting various locations with Tifa and Barret, Tifa opened the &#8220;Seventh Heaven&#8221; bar. Before setting off on a journey, Barret left Marlene in Cloud and Tifa&#8217;s care, and the three of them began living together. ~FFVII 10th Anniversary Ultimania Cloud Strife Profile"

It says that the "three of them [Cloud, Tifa, Marlene]" began *living* together *AFTER* Barret set off on a "journey".

This unequivocally proves that when the words "live"/"living"/"lived" are used to describe Cloud, Tifa, Marlene, and Denzel, it is *ONLY* excluding Barret because Barret is not *TECHNICALLY* "living" with them.

The next quote used as proof to exclude Barret:
"Cloud brings Denzel back from the slum&#8217;s church and Denzel joins Cloud&#8217;s family." ~FFVII 10th Anniversary Complete Timeline

All this says is the word "family". It doesn't describe who is in Cloud's family.

And the final quote used as proof to exclude Barret:
"When he awakes, there was his friends. There were the children, freed from their fatal illness. Tifa and Marlene, and Denzel asking for Cloud to heal his Geostigma&#8212; his family were waiting. Engulfed in celebration, he realizes where he is meant to live. He realizes that he was able to forgive himself." ~SOURCE: 10th AU, ACC Playback

Ok. I'll give you this *ONE* quote.

But all of these quotes prove that Barret *IS* apart of the Seventh Heaven Family:

&#8220;Yeah, let&#8217;s go home&#8221; Cloud agreed.
&#8220;Where to?&#8221; Barret asked.
&#8220;Our suspended reality.&#8221; (Cloud)
&#8220;What the hell do you mean by that?&#8221; (Barret)
&#8220;Our normal lives.&#8221; (Cloud)
&#8220;And where do we have something like that?&#8221; (Barret)
&#8220;We&#8217;ll find one.&#8221; Cloud looked at Tifa and said, &#8220;Right?&#8221;
&#8220;Yeah!&#8221; cried the cheerful Marlene. Tifa nodded too, but just like Barret, she wondered where they had a normal life. ~CoT

&#8220;I&#8217;ll take care of Cloud and Tifa!&#8221;
Barret turned round and shouted, &#8220;Do your best!&#8221; His voice was a little shaky. &#8220;Unite the family&#8217;s strength and keep at it!&#8221; ~CoT

"Marlene who had always slept with Tifa, slept with her foster father Barret the night before he left. Their conversations could be heard late into the night. Early next morning, Barret set off." ~CoT

"Upon finding out that Edge was under attack during the midst of his travels, he rushed over towards the crisis faced by his family and companions." ~Barret Wallace's Character Profile

[Funny, Barret rushes back to defend the family that Cloud and him *established* at Seventh Heaven before he left on his journey.]

"Although Marlene is not his real daughter, Barret has a deep affection toward her. If possible, he would have liked to be together with her all the time, however, he could not bring her on perilous trips and their time spent living apart is actually longer. Entrusting Marlene to Elmyra's care in FFVII and Tifa's in AC, he fights hard day after day for the future of his "daughter"."

[If Marlene is Barret's daughter, then he is part of the family. Although he is not *living* with the family, he *IS* apart of the family nonetheless.]

&#8220;A family.&#8221; (Tifa)
&#8220;Yeah.&#8221; (Marlene)
Marlene cheerfully answered in response to Tifa&#8217;s murmur.
&#8220;I&#8217;ll put Cloud in our family too.&#8221; (Marlene)
&#8220;I appreciate that.&#8221; (Cloud) ~Revised CoT

[Marlene puts Cloud in the family that includes her Father, Barret. If this is Cloud's family, why did Marlene do the inviting? Shouldn't Cloud have invited Marlene into *HIS* family?]



The best the Cloti side can hope is that SE is inconsistent. But considering there is many more quotes that Barret is included in the family, I'd say it is proven, without a doubt, that Barret is apart of the Seventh Heaven family.

 

[I Am Not Me]

There's also a love triangle in FFVIII, btw. Actually two. Squall/Rinoa and Squall/Quistis, and Squall/Rinoa and Seifer/Rinoa.

Should the standards be different there too? I mean, hey, two love triangles. The standards for Squall/Rinoa should be higher if we go by BB logic.

I'm ready to debate the canonicity of Squinoa, guys. I never agreed with that couple anyway.

 

[BlankBeat]

There's also a love triangle in FFVIII, btw. Actually two. Squall/Rinoa and Squall/Quistis, and Squall/Rinoa and Seifer/Rinoa.

Should the standards be different there too? I mean, hey, two love triangles. The standards for Squall/Rinoa should be higher if we go by BB logic.

I'm ready to debate the canonicity of Squinoa, guys. I never agreed with that couple anyway.

Isn't Squall x Rinoa the only FFVIII couple on the "For The One I Love" page?

EDIT: Cloud is the only hero in any of the love triangles to be pictured on the FTOIL page with both of his love interests in two *canon* scenes of romance.