The Love Triangle Debate thread of KNEEL BEFORE ZOD OR SUFFER HIS WRATH (ignore the opening posts at your peril) (Round 6)

[Dashell]

I specifically said that I'm not arguing about how reliable his prediction is. I'm arguing about why SE decided to include a wedding prediction about Cloud and Aerith in the game.

But ... if he's outright lying... then ... what difference does it make? What about that guy who's like "childhood friends? Yeah that's a good one!" outside of 7th Heaven?... does he count for anything?

 

[BlankBeat]

How do you talk so much and yet say so little? Its like a mystical art or something.

lol

 

[Unlucky]

This whole thing about Barret and Marlene as cockblocks is making me cringe.

It's abysmal.

:rabbit:

 

[Dashell]

what's a cockblock?.... is that like... Cloud and Tifa wouldn't have sex with Barret or Marlene around?

 

[Danseru-kun]

I'm amused how Cait Sith shipping Clerith apparently represents SE

But then Aerith entrusts her feelings to Tifa in MWTTP and nah it doesn't mean anything

And Cloud putting the Buster Sword in Aerith's church is just Cloud's feelings

Why Cait Sith

 

[BlankBeat]

This whole thing about Barret and Marlene as cockblocks is making me cringe.

It's abysmal.

:rabbit:

I'd say this is more of a *vagina* block:

Or this:

"The thing which she is unable to hide her irritation towards Cloud
is the fact that he isn't merely dragging the past around, but because that reason might perhaps be related to Aerith.
...
AC: Upon knowing that Cloud had been residing in Aerith’s church after
leaving the place they had been living in together, her expression becomes complex." ~FFVII 10th Anniversary Ultimania, Tifa's profile

Or this:

"When Cloud starts ignoring Tifa’s calls and visiting Aerith’s church, it happens before he gets geostigma. He permanently leaves because of Geostigma, but he was growing cold and distant towards Tifa before he got the disease. And one of the ultimania’s state that Cloud finds Denzel AND THEN contracts Geostigma sometime afterwards. Meaning the above scene is taking place before Cloud has Geostigma.

There are three pages of missed calls on Cloud’s phone (you can see above), but we only get to see two. First shown missed call dates May 5th last shown missed call June 29th. This is also reinforced by the fact that when Tifa picks up and thinks it’s Cloud calling she says this; ”Cloud, you never call”—meaning he never calls her, and keep in mind he’s never calling her before he got the disease.

Here are the exact dates of her missed calls starting on page 2 of the folders and continues to page 3, we don’t get to see the previous 5 messages on page 1.

May 5 (at 10:16 PM),
May 15 (at 1:30 PM),
May 21 (at 6:21 PM),
May 26 (at 12:12 PM),
June 2nd (at 9:42 AM),
June 6th (at 9:17 PM),
June 14 (at 3:04 PM),
June 18 (8:56 AM),
June 24th (at 6:22 PM),
June 29th (at 12:02 PM)

And there’s at least one page of ignored calls we don’t get to see. Tifa’s calls are usually a week apart, so page one of the missed calls would mean Cloud was ignoring her in April and possibly March, as well."



It seems Tifa had every reason to think that her relationship with Cloud wasn't going well. No wonder she asked if Cloud loved her.

All of this seems to follow along with Nojima's premise that, "...there's the premise that things won't go well between Tifa and Cloud, and that even without Geostigma or Sephiroth this might be the same."


Nojima also ponders that even Denzel and Marlene might not be enough to help Cloud and Tifa sort through their issues.

And it seems, based on all of this, that Nomura's quote is VERY accurate: "For example, I was frequently asked if there had been romantic relationship between Tifa and Cloud for two years, after FF7 ended, but I don't have any clue." ~Nomura, Dorimaga interview, published at Flaregamer

 

[BlankBeat]

I'm amused how Cait Sith shipping Clerith apparently represents SE

But then Aerith entrusts her feelings to Tifa in MWTTP and nah it doesn't mean anything

And Cloud putting the Buster Sword in Aerith's church is just Cloud's feelings

Why Cait Sith

Cait Sith's prediction did not happen in a vacuum. It happened after Cloud felt Aerith's eyes were "impressive," it happened after Cloud thought that if Aerith's smile costs 1 gil that it is a, "good purchase," it happened after Cloud left his initial meeting with Aerith with a "mysterious" feeling, it happened after Cloud and Aerith shared two dates, it happened after Cloud agreed to be Aerith's bodyguard, it happened after Cloud told Marlene he hoped Aerith liked him, it happened after Cloud said he would be there for Aerith in Cosmo Canyon, etc.

Do you honestly believe SE did not include this wedding prediction to highlight Cloud and Aerith's romantic relationship? Are you saying SE just randomly decided to include a wedding prediction between two people that had no romantic connection? Really...?

 

[Dashell]

what's a cockblock?.... is that like... Cloud and Tifa wouldn't have sex with Barret or Marlene around?

This was a legit question BTW, am I correct?

it happened after Cloud left his initial meeting with Aerith with a "mysterious" feeling

Not familiar with this quote... can you please provide it?

 

[Danseru-kun]

May 5 (at 10:16 PM),
May 15 (at 1:30 PM),
May 21 (at 6:21 PM),
May 26 (at 12:12 PM),
June 2nd (at 9:42 AM),
June 6th (at 9:17 PM),
June 14 (at 3:04 PM),
June 18 (8:56 AM),
June 24th (at 6:22 PM),
June 29th (at 12:02 PM)

Looks normal. My father rides on a motorbike and comes home indefinitely on wee hours. He cannot answer the phone because he can't pick it up while riding and he cannot stop because it's dangerous... Or he cannot hear the phone or feel the vibration because of the motor

When he comes home, if he comes home tonight I'm going to look at his call history to prove he's ignoring my mom.

My gosh my dad and mom are breaking apart halp meeeee

 

[Dashell]

So in two months that's 10 missed calls... idk doesn't seem that bad to me

 

[Ⓐaron]

what's a cockblock?.... is that like... Cloud and Tifa wouldn't have sex with Barret or Marlene around?

This was a legit question BTW, am I correct?

That's pretty much it, yeah.

I haven't read 99% of this and am probably too tired to bother so don't expect responses to anything anyone else has said.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

So in two months that's 10 missed calls... idk doesn't seem that bad to me

Yeah, if that many means a marriage is in trouble, then ... guess mine is decomposed by now.

Still, I can see the point that the inclusion of that plus Tifa's comment that Cloud rarely calls is probably intended to be a reflection of Cloud drawing into himself. From a creative viewpoint, that's probably what it is meant to indicate.

It's a sound argument for that. Not a sound argument for him not loving Tifa, though.

Just like him leaving home isn't a sound argument for that. Unless it means he doesn't love Denzel or Marlene either? Interesting that it only is supposed to mean Tifa's a naggy ho he can't get away from. But she isn't the only one he abandoned.

 

[Splintered]

Are we just going to ignore that there's an entire line dedicated to explaining it in AC/C?

Tifa points out to Cloud during her speech for him to not run away from his problems, that he doesn't pick up his phone but he doesn't throw it away either.

Blankbeat is right when he points out that it shows Cloud and Tifa's relationship is in trouble, there's no need to be condescending to him. There's a reason why that it was shown, it's not a giant leap for us to figure out what Squeenix was trying to show. A phone is symbolic of connection, and Cloud is withdrawing from the world.

But here's where the explanation fails. It's not that Cloud doesn't want to be connected, or doesn't love Tifa, or doesn't want to be part of her family. He absolutely does, the second point of the sentence shows it. He doesn't throw it away. He holds on to it, because deep down he wants to be with his family. He treasures them. But he's too scared to return, and not the fear of big bad Sephiroth.

Sephiroth as the villain was incidental, the story is about Cloud's struggle against failure and his tendency to give up despite what he wants.

And then the second scene with the phone pops up, and it shows that Cloud was never alone. It falls down to the bottom of a lake, and it plays all the voices of the people he is close to- his comrades. He's not alone, and in the end he rejoins them and the family.

Thus the theme of the AC/C. The end.

EDIT:

I need to read Tres's post more closely, it's a good rule of thumb for anything in life

 

[BlankBeat]

Looks normal. My father rides on a motorbike and comes home indefinitely on wee hours. He cannot answer the phone because he can't pick it up while riding and he cannot stop because it's dangerous... Or he cannot hear the phone or feel the vibration because of the motor

When he comes home, if he comes home tonight I'm going to look at his call history to prove he's ignoring my mom.

My gosh my dad and mom are breaking apart halp meeeee

1. Does your Dad ignore your Mom for months at a time and run off to live in the Church of your Mom's "love rival"? Remember, Cloud was visiting Aerith's Church before he got Geostigma (that's how he discovered Denzel).

2. You are (again) ignoring context and what the creators have said.

--A: "...there's the premise that things won't go well between Tifa and Cloud, and that even without Geostigma or Sephiroth, this might be the same." -Nojima

--B: Obviously Tifa senses that something is off between Cloud and herself, which is why she asks him if he loves her.

--C: "The thing which she is unable to hide her irritation towards Cloud is the fact that he isn't merely dragging the past around, but because that reason might perhaps be related to Aerith.
...
AC: Upon knowing that Cloud had been residing in Aerith’s church after leaving the place they had been living in together, her expression becomes complex." ~FFVII 10th Anniversary Ultimania, Tifa's profile

--D: "For example, I was frequently asked if there had been romantic relationship between Tifa and Cloud for two years, after FF7 ended, but I don't have any clue." ~Nomura, Dorimaga interview, published at Flaregamer

When you look at what the creators have said and the way Cloud and Tifa interact, plus Tifa's jealousy towards Cloud visiting Aerith's Church and the fact that Tifa doesn't know if Cloud loves her, it paints an undeniable picture in my mind that they are not in a romantic relationship after the HAHW scene.

--------------------

Not familiar with this quote... can you please provide it?

"After the explosion of First Reactor, Cloud met Aerith while running away alone. Cloud left the place, remembering the mysterious feeling he had for Aerith from the small conversation. He then reunited with AVALANCHE safely, and left for their base…" ~Final Fantasy VII Story Playback, Page 111

Here's the other quote as well:
Cloud: "Here I met a flower girl. She's a girl with impressive eyes. She's around my age, or older by one or two years but the innocent radiance in her eyes simply makes her suddenly look younger. (&#8230 Maybe she's pleased that the flower was sold, because the worried look on her face had vanished. If this smile costs only one gil, it is a good purchase." ~Final Fantasy Dismantled

So in two months that's 10 missed calls... idk doesn't seem that bad to me

We are only seeing page 2 of 3.

Obviously we can't assume that page 1 and page 3 are ALL from Tifa. But considering that every missed call we see on page 2 is from "Seventh Heaven", it would only seem reasonable to assume that many of the calls on page 1 and page 3 are from Tifa.

--------------------

Still, I can see the point that the inclusion of that plus Tifa's comment that Cloud rarely calls is probably intended to be a reflection of Cloud drawing into himself. From a creative viewpoint, that's probably what it is meant to indicate.

It's a sound argument for that. Not a sound argument for him not loving Tifa, though.

I honestly think when you look at what the creators have said, the fact that Cloud ignores Tifa's calls and never calls her back for months, the fact that Cloud is visiting Aerith's Church (before getting Geostigma) and Tifa is irritated/jealous over it, and the fact that Tifa asks Cloud if he loves her, it is not hard to see that Nojima's premise is correct and that the HAHW scene did not necessarily lead to a romantic relationship between Cloud and Tifa that lasted for any length of time.

 

[Dashell]

"After the explosion of First Reactor, Cloud met Aerith while running away alone. Cloud left the place, remembering the mysterious feeling he had for Aerith from the small conversation. He then reunited with AVALANCHE safely, and left for their base…" ~Final Fantasy VII Story Playback, Page 111

... okay which book is this? The Ultimania? I just totally don't remember this, sorry ... but it's interesting. I'll keep it in mind, thanks.

 

[BlankBeat]

He's not alone, and in the end he rejoins them and the family.

But we never see any concrete resolution between Cloud and Tifa in particular. We never see anything that answers Tifa's question, "Do you love me?"

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

--A: "...there's the premise that things won't go well between Tifa and Cloud, and that even without Geostigma or Sephiroth, this might be the same." -Nojima

--B: Obviously Tifa senses that something is off between Cloud and herself, which is why she asks him if he loves her.

It's like you're knocking on the door of getting it but won't step inside when the door opens. You just lean forward and keep on knocking.

You can put together that the phone deal is meant to indicate Cloud's withdrawal, you can make the connection between that and Tifa sensing that something is off between she and Cloud -- but you can't quite make the equally simple connection of dots to there being a status quo between the two of them that is now off-kilter. It's like you've fallen asleep at the wheel but miraculously woken up safely in your driveway, so you didn't see that deer you almost hit or the old lady you bulldozed.

I honestly think when you look at what the creators have said, the fact that Cloud ignores Tifa's calls and never calls her back for months, the fact that Cloud is visiting Aerith's Church (before getting Geostigma) and Tifa is irritated/jealous over it, and the fact that Tifa asks Cloud if he loves her, it is not hard to see that Nojima's premise is correct and that the HAHW scene did not necessarily lead to a romantic relationship between Cloud and Tifa that lasted for any length of time.

You are aware he lives with her and goes home every night even then, yes?

 

[Dashell]

This is what I never understood

Cloud living with Tifa = nothing
Cloud visiting Aerith's church = true love

what?

 

[BlankBeat]

This is what I never understood

Cloud living with Tifa = nothing
Cloud visiting Aerith's church = true love

what?

Because Seventh Heaven has always been home-base for AVALANCHE, so the fact that Seventh Heaven is where Cloud, Tifa, Barret, and Marlene reside is not indicative of anything new or unusual. Seventh Heaven has always been the hideout for AVALANCHE.

Because Cloud is also living with Marlene and Denzel, in a family that was formed with Barret.

Because Cloud has a separate bed in his private room at Seventh Heaven.

On the contrary, Aerith's Church symbolizes the relationship between Cloud and Aerith. It's where their relationship began. It's also stated as Cloud's, "Promised Land". It's also worth noting that Tifa seems jealous that Cloud is visiting Aerith's Church, which is a clear hint by SE that Cloud visiting Aerith's Church is meant to have romantic undertones.

Anyway -- that's just a Clerith perspective. To me, it speaks volumes that Cloud would choose to reside and visit Aerith's Church before his diagnosis.

 

[Dashell]

But Cloud could have gone ANYWHERE.... he didn't have to go with Tifa. He specifically said he had her this time and it was in a different way than before...

That should mean something. And when you can find me 8 or so quotes talking about how Barret and Tifa realized their feelings for each other and are living together... THEN I'll understand your argument.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Because Cloud has a separate bed in his private room at Seventh Heaven.

That "private room" with no privacy and which Nojima's narrative calls "Cloud's office"?

Just keep on spinning those tires, buddy. You're a broken record that don't want to be fixed, ain't ya?

 

[Splintered]

But we never see any concrete resolution between Cloud and Tifa in particular. We never see anything that answers Tifa's question, "Do you love me?"

Because the question is fueled by her insecurities. The question doesn't pop up again because it's encompassed by all her other fears. I've heard people say insecurities aren't the point but I disagree, it's absolutely the point. It's the point of her entire character arc both in VII and CoT

Tifa's a character who is strong and supportive and rather smart, and there isn't much that can stop her. Her fatal flaw is however, she defeats herself, she questions her role in Cloud's life, but that's who she is. She stuns herself into non action because she thinks herself into a corner.

Tifa loses her family and entire home in her childhood, then loses it all again during FFVII. She almost loses Cloud who begins to become her home and family. And at the beginning of AC/C she loses herself.

We often associate depression with Vincent and Cloud, but all of the characters begin to show signs of severe psychological stress. Tifa herself is struggling with a bad case of survivor's guilt. And the way she begins to get over it is that she builds her home and family all over again.

But true to Tifa's characters, the insecurities set in again. Does Cloud love me? Is this really a family? Does Denzel even care about me? Do I deserve to live after the terrible things she has done? Will we ever be together, smiling again?

There are very few direct, verbal answers to any of these questions. We probably never will because Cloud and Tifa have very subtle ways of communicating with each other. But imo, they are all yes. I guess you can say that Cloud never saying anything is a nonanswer so it's impossible to say yes despite everything else in Tifa's life coming together- but you have to agree that everything else is pretty much "yes."

In the end, who really needs to answer this question is Tifa. To all of these questions. Yes they hinge on Cloud being there with them, but Tifa needs to push past these insecurities, because they are large gaping faults in her life and they tend to cripple her. And only after she learns to accept these issues and fight for them is there real resolution.

Character debates are best debates :>

 

[Danseru-kun]

1. Does your Dad ignore your Mom for months at a time and run off to live in the Church of your Mom's "love rival"? Remember, Cloud was visiting Aerith's Church before he got Geostigma (that's how he discovered Denzel).

You are concluding that missed calls means ignoring. Cloud having secrets and missing calls for like every other few days is not ignoring. Facts stated by Tifa's novella show Cloud is busy with deliveries and comes home late.

2. You are (again) ignoring context and what the creators have said.

--A: "...there's the premise that things won't go well between Tifa and Cloud, and that even without Geostigma or Sephiroth, this might be the same." -Nojima

--B: Obviously Tifa senses that something is off between Cloud and herself, which is why she asks him if he loves her.

--C: "The thing which she is unable to hide her irritation towards Cloud is the fact that he isn't merely dragging the past around, but because that reason might perhaps be related to Aerith.
...
AC: Upon knowing that Cloud had been residing in Aerith’s church after leaving the place they had been living in together, her expression becomes complex." ~FFVII 10th Anniversary Ultimania, Tifa's profile

--D: "For example, I was frequently asked if there had been romantic relationship between Tifa and Cloud for two years, after FF7 ended, but I don't have any clue." ~Nomura, Dorimaga interview, published at Flaregamer

When you look at what the creators have said and the way Cloud and Tifa interact, plus Tifa's jealousy towards Cloud visiting Aerith's Church and the fact that Tifa doesn't know if Cloud loves her, it paints an undeniable picture in my mind that they are not in a romantic relationship after the HAHW scene.

I don't like repeating myself, it seems that you do.

You're are the one ignoring the bigger picture that Cloud's problems are more than his connection with Aerith. The bigger context is Cloud's anxiety over his peaceful living with Tifa and his guilt from the past, Tifa is likewise insecure because Cloud is dragging his past behind.

You are assuming Tifa's feelings regarding Aerith are all about the love triangle. Aerith is Tifa's love rival and her FRIEND, and Tifa's profile even said:

[AC] Tifa, smiling towards Aerith’s presence. Cherishing Aerith is Tifa’s honest feeling.

She cherishes Aerith too, hyou're ignoring the bigger picture that Tifa's complex feelings are COMPLEX, but her honest feelings is love for Aerith. She's grieved for her as well.

Tifa went to see Aerith together with her companions. Aerith, who was now at the bottom of the Forgotten City’s spring. The planet she saved in exchange for her life would surely be all right now. That’s what they were told. Tifa heard a voice asking if she was all right. She didn’t know if it was Aerith’s voice or her own. She wept. Right after Sephiroth took Aerith’ life, she hadn’t grieved at all. She had been sad, but she channeled her sadness into anger and hatred for the enemy. But the pain she felt when she visited the place tore her heart apart. While enduring the pain, she thought to herself how she was made this way by being part of a large group of people and an AVALANCHE member. She overflowed with tears again.

“I’m sorry, I’m really sorry.”

She felt Cloud’s hand on her shoulder. He was holding onto her firmly as if he didn’t want her to go anywhere. For now, I’ll just let myself cry as much as I want. I’ll leave the rest in his hands.

Quotes you completely ignored:

The happier he is now,
The more Cloud is tormented by painful “memories” of the past. FFVII 10th Anniversary Ultimania Cloud Strife Profile p36-41

I don’t think I’m fit to save anyone. Not family, not friends … no one. 」

The more he realizes how happy he is living with Tifa and the children, the more the fear of losing that and regrets toward the past trouble Cloud…
FFVII 10th Anniversary Ultimania Cloud Strife Profile p36-41


Nomura in Distance: “The happier Cloud is, the more lonely he becomes.”

​

Because he contracted Geostigma, Cloud left Tifa and the children, and began living in the Slum church. FFVII 10th Anniversary Ultimania Complete Timeline

Now running a delivery business while helping out Tifa with the newly opened “Seventh Heaven” bar, Cloud, Tifa, Marlene and Denzel lived together like a family. However, when Cloud contracts Geostigma he disappears. Behind these actions lies feelings of guilt towards his past failure to protect people who were important to him, but through his battle with Kadaj’s gang, the legacy of Jenova, he regains the courage to face reality.
FFVII 10th Anniversary Ultimania Cloud Strife Profile p36-41

Because he contracted Geostigma, he left Tifa and the children, and began living in the Slum church. FFVII 10th Anniversary Ultimania Cloud Strife Profile p36-41

AC Prologue: “Nojima: Cloud never had a candid personality to begin with, and although he started living with Tifa and even started working, he obtained a peaceful living he’s never experienced before, and this conversely made him anxious. And in the midst of this he contracts Geostigma himself, and rather than being able to protect the people dear to him, he instead was forced to face his own death, and so ran away.”


“Nomura: Even though he found peace, Cloud has lost a lot of people dear to him up until this point. Not only that, but looking at Cloud’s history, this is the first time he’s experienced a ‘peaceful’ environment in the true sense of the word. Cloud is a character who will always keep thinking, regardless of what’s going on around him.”
-
“— So, why has Cloud separated himself from his friends?

Nomura: Cloud is scared that the peace he has now might shatter, so he is living on his own.

— Why?

Nomura: In the past he meet Zack, his best friend, and Aerith, someone who was important to him, but he lost them, so wonders if his present peace will also shatter one day... Since something might happen while he’s around, he left everyone behind and is doing delivery work on his own.

— But he still has a mobile phone, and he doesn’t seem to have rejected other people outright.

Nomura:Yeah. Delivery work itself is something which connects people together. While he appears to be rejecting other people, in actual face he feels lonely deep down. That’s why he has his mobile phone.”
-Shonen Gangan Interview
​

And please don't omit the rest of the quotes, please please please because that takes them out of context.

Episode Tifa [Case of Tifa] … first off, there’s the premise that things won’t go well between Tifa and Cloud, and that even without Geostigma or Sephiroth this might be the same. I don’t really intend to go about my views on love or marriage or family (laughs). After ACC, I guess Denzel and Marlene could help them work it out. Maybe things would have gone well with Aerith, but I think there is a great burden from Aerith. Oh, I just remembered. I wanted to write Cloud as a person, seen through Tifa’s eyes. But he really isn’t the type to open up (laughs). ~Nojima, interview about On the Way to a Smile

Tifa, who from 2 years ago has been the only one Cloud opened his heart to. Now he has closed off his heart even from her. ~AC Prologue Book

• Yes they were in trouble but it's in the context of love, marriage and family.
• Tifa is the only one Cloud opened his heart to.
• Cloud never opened his heart except to Tifa
• Cloud never opened his heart to anyone else

And again, please look at the context of what you're quoting rather than quotemine it:

Tifa’s complicated feelings continue even in AC, two years after Aerith had departed the world. This was due to the fact that Cloud, succumbing to the notion that Aerith’s death was his fault and condemning himself, construed that Denzel was “the child which Aerith brought here” and took care of him. In addition, Cloud had also gone away to the church that Aerith had been in. The thing which she is unable to hide in her irritation towards Cloud is the fact that he isn’t merely dragging the past around, but because that reason might perhaps be related to Aerith.

This was due to the fact that Cloud, succumbing to the notion that Aerith’s death was his fault and condemning himself, construed that Denzel was “the child which Aerith brought here” and took care of him.


This was due to the fact that Cloud, succumbing to the notion that Aerith’s death was his fault and condemning himself

Even though being burdened with painful “memories” is the same for everyone － Unable to do much for Cloud who is always dragging around his regrets for the past, she subconsciously raises her voice.
Tifa, watching over Cloud warmly as he regains the strength to move forward. Having been together with him since they were young, she is able to believe in his recovery for certain.

FFVII 10th Anniversary Ultimania Tifa Lockhart Character Profile p 42-47

Facts:

• Cloud is happy with Tifa
• He's having a peaceful living with Tifa
• He's scared and anxious so he ran away
• He keeps his mobile phone because he's lonely being alone
• In AC, he listens to Tifa's voice

If he wanted to ignore Tifa completely he could just have shut his phone down

Sorry Tres I took the bait too, I've wasted my time.

Blankbeat I won't debate with you, I'll just link you to an article that explains why I won't: http://danseru-kun.tumblr.com/post/52190447845/why-proving-clerith-does-not-disprove-cloti-and-vice

This type discussion won't be constructive because of numerous logical fallacies. So bye. :|

Moar quotes you ignore

With the support of former allies and Tifa, an important woman to him and now also part of his family, Cloud regains the courage to move forward. - Cloud Strife Profile FFVII10th AU

In the past you’ve always looked after me, you [Marlene,] Denzel and Tifa. You were there whenever I needed you. Now it’s my turn
.- Cloud in ACC

Inside, I felt one thing was for sure: Cloud and Tifa would be together.Everybody would be back home where they belonged. - Two years is too short to forget the past completely, but it’s still a pretty long time… And two years older was a good age for Marlene to start talking a little.” -Nojima

 

[BlankBeat]

But Cloud could have gone ANYWHERE.... he didn't have to go with Tifa. He specifically said he had her this time and it was in a different way than before...

But Cloud didn't just go with Tifa. He went with Tifa, Barret, and Marlene.

"After visiting various locations with Tifa and Barret, Tifa opened the "Seventh Heaven" bar. Before setting off on a journey, Barret left Marlene in Cloud and Tifa's care, and the three of them began living together." ~Case of Tifa

It says after visiting various locations, "WITH TIFA AND BARRET" they opened the Seventh Heaven bar. Cloud, Barret, and Tifa all decided to reside at Seventh heaven together. The family formed included ALL of them.

From what I understand, after the game ends, most of the characters go back to where they were first introduced. Therefore, it makes sense that Tifa, Barret, and Cloud would be the ones that went back to Midgar and formed a family together. Again -- Seventh Heaven has always been the home-base for AVALANCE in Midgar.

That should mean something. And when you can find me 8 or so quotes talking about how Barret and Tifa realized their feelings for each other and are living together... THEN I'll understand your argument.

I don't deny that Cloud and Tifa's relationship is different than Cloud and Barret's relationship.

What I deny is that living together and forming this family together is indicative of a romantic relationship between Cloud and Tifa.

I also dispute that simply expressing mutual feelings means a romantic relationship began. This flies in the face of Nomura's quote, Cloud's separate room with a separate bed, the relationship charts, Nojima's premise, Tifa asking if Cloud loves her, Tifa's jealousy over Cloud visiting Aerith's Church, Cloud ignoring Tifa's phone calls, etc.

What I'm asking is what unequivocally proves Cloud and Tifa took these mutual feelings and turned them into a relationship? If Nomura isn't sure that they are in a relationship, and if Tifa doesn't know if Cloud loves her, how can you be so sure that they are in a relationship?

It seems that the biggest reason to prove that they are in a relationship is that they are living together. But them living together at Seventh Heaven in particular, especially when you consider the living arrangements and how the family was formed with Barret, I don't see how that can be used as evidence that Cloud and Tifa are in a romantic relationship after the HAHW scene.

 

[BlankBeat]

Because the question is fueled by her insecurities.

Yes, Tifa is naturally insecure. But in my opinion, her natural insecurities are not the only reason why she asked Cloud if he loved her.

To me, Tifa is insecure because of the communication problems between her and Cloud. In addition, Tifa is insecure because she thinks that Cloud dragging around the past might, "perhaps be related to Aerith," and because Cloud is visiting Aerith's Church (remember, SE specifically mentions this in a passage describing Tifa's jealousy over the special world Cloud and Aerith were forming together). Obviously Tifa's reaction to Cloud visiting Aerith's Church is meant to suggest that Cloud visiting Aerith's Church has romantic undertones, especially when you consider the context of the passage that it is stated in.

Both the communication problems and Tifa's jealousy towards Cloud's continued spiritual bond with Aerith are exactly why Nojima said, "...there's the premise that things won't go well between Tifa and Cloud, and that even without Geostigma or Sephiroth, this might be the same." It is also why Nomura said, "For example, I was frequently asked if there had been romantic relationship between Tifa and Cloud for two years, after FF7 ended, but I don't have any clue." ~Nomura, Dorimaga interview, published at Flaregamer