The Love Triangle Debate thread of KNEEL BEFORE ZOD OR SUFFER HIS WRATH (ignore the opening posts at your peril) (Round 6)

[Dashell]

okay maybe I missed something but I'm not quite clear how this is LTD related

Not saying you can't post it but I'm wondering what the significance is.

 

[Danseru-kun]

@Quex

The Mrs. Tifa translation has baffled some people including me and I had no idea what Nojima was referring to, I myself thought it might be something Cloti. If some people can nitpick that error, I'm quite sure they will use that to show how we're biased Cloti translators.

 

[eleamaya]

Mmm, I usually find some couple who referring each other with "boy"-kun and "girl"-san. If boy like girl, they usually use -san instead of -chan for respect. But if girl like boy, they usually use -kun.

 

[Dashell]

I'm bumping this to say I've got an LTD thing coming up in a few weeks (or sooner) that'll blow your freaking minds.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Me too, actually.

 

[Unlucky]

Why torture us with the wait

We're ready for this news

 

[Splintered]

Am I going to have to prepare for a shitstorm on tumblr? Because a few weeks ago there was some huge shitstorms and apparently there's a good amount of Tifa bashing going on right now (I can't see the original posts because I pretty much blocked all of the anti Cloti shippers awhile ago).

And nothing even happened then.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Quex, Tres, you had better bring the goddamn thunder with that warmup.

 

[Dashell]

Err mine's not really news... it's just something I know you guys will like. And it's not ready yet

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Oh, I'll bring the thunder, Ryu. You just bring the passion.

Wait, are we talking about the same thing?

 

[OneWingedDemon]

I'll just bring the popcorn.

For me.

Not you.

 

[Splintered]

Somehow I got wrapped up in a Clerith debate, which is weird because for my LTD whining, I usually try not to debate against Clerith as much as I try to debate FOR Cloti, I just don't see the reason why I should hate on Clerith as a couple to like Cloud/Tifa.

But they managed to hit and itch I wanted to scratch, about identifying everything as romantic in FFVII when there are other options. I'm going to copyandpasta here because I have no where else to put them.

The original post said that one of the biggest reasons that Aerith's death is so sad is because Cloud/Aerith was going to get together and then she was dead (but later went on to say that Clerith love transcended death). I replied that there was plenty of reasons why her death was sad and it wasn't just romantic. And then-

Spoiler

No one said the tragedy of Aerith's death is limited to her being a romantic love interest. Aerith being a romantic love interest was stated to be, "ONE OF THE BIGGEST REASONS" why her death was sad. Let me say that again, "ONE OF THE BIGGEST REASONS". It did not say, "THE ONLY REASON".

Okay, I get where you are coming from anon.

Personally, I’m still a bit wary of the “ONE OF THE BIGGEST” reasons, because I think the LTD fandom in particular has a really big problem of making FFVII (and AC/C) all about shipping [Actually this is a problem with a lot of fandoms I am in]. I’ve had people tell me that love is the, or one of the, main themes of FFVII. I think that’s pretty much horseshit tbh. I don’t even consider romance a major theme.

That’s not to say I don’t think C/A doesn’t exist. Actually I quite like the idea that Cloud/Aerith were beginning to have feelings for each other. I think it makes the story hit harder. And I love the strong spiritual bond that they have, the scenes they have are inspiring. But I have severe problems with the idea that C/A is more important or “special” than C/T and would have auto happened if Aerith lived. Or that C/A negates C/T, when in truth Cloud’s relationship with both of these wonderful women brings out something different in his character, and his in theirs.

In general though, I think there’s a reason Aerith death happened right after the Temple of Ancients. The Temple of Ancients is the climax of Aerith’s personal journey. She overcomes her doubts over her lineage, and begins to understand and embrace what an Ancient is and what she must do. Then after that, she goes on her quest to save her friends and her own, one that she can only do now that she has finally found herself- wiser and better.

And then BAM, she’s gone. The one girl that talked about the future more than anybody else, who seemed to enjoy almost every part of her adventure is gone.

Cloud’s relationship with Aerith is certainly a factor of the tragedy. But I think it’s only a part of it, a small piece of the “what could have been.” Like I said before, I don’t view C/A as an epic love story, I view it as we will never know. Maybe they could have the greatest love story ever. Maybe they would have completely fallen apart. What makes this sad isn’t that they would have married with 2.5 children and Cloud would never go on to have PTSD and depression instantly defeated. What’s sad is that we will never have an answer. That was taken away from Aerith.

I think the creators have shied away from framing this into a romantic tragedy, where a woman goes off and dies for her lover, and her lover goes on a revenge binge on the man that killed him and never recovers. I always felt that it was a violent act that took away someone who could have lived a great life (I’m on the side of the Aerith debate that says she did not go to the Forgotten City to die), and that was what the creators intended. Cloud would struggle with her death, but he would overcome it with the relationships he has all around him, all just as important.

Wow, this post is long winded, and I think I’m a bit all over the place so I’ll just end it with this: the tragedy of Aerith might have been made more personal because of her relationship with Cloud, but it was never hinged on it. Rather, even people who do not see C/A would be able to understand the full weight of her death in the game. They would not mysteriously not be able to comprehend her death if they didn’t support a ship, because it was never fundamentally based on a ship.

Perfectly okay if you think that C/A loving each other makes it all the more of a tear jerk, and I think people would have to be asleep for the many years to think that Squeenix doesn’t at least have a spot soft for Cloud and Aerith. But it’s perfectly okay for people to not link romance and Aerith’s death.

To which they replied

SE made Cloud and Aerith romantic love interests and included Cait Sith's prediction to make her death more sad to the gamer: "After solving the puzzle about Cait Sith's replaceable body, he tells one last fortune of Cloud and Aerith's affinity. Cait Sith's lines, which seem to expect Cloud and Aerith's wedding, now makes it more painful." ~Final Fantasy VII Dismantled, Square Enix. This "WEDDING PREDICTION" becomes "MORE PAINFUL" when we know Aerith dies. SE included all of this intentionally.

Last post of this so I don't blather things all over people's dash. Sorry guys.
I acknowledge that the possibility of romance can add to the feelings of sadness to Aerith's death. Or at least I thought I did, my post is rambly and I apologize for that.


Cait Sith's prediction, it's the clearest set up expectations, say you will have a happy ending, and then kill em' off. And there are romantic implications there as it promises the white picket fence. But I still don't think it makes it "The BIGGEST REASON" why Aerith's death is so sad.


Comparing another example would be Aerith and the Highwind. She really wants to ride the highwind. She tells Cloud. Cloud may or may not promise to take her on it. Her cg picture is of her looking at the Highwind. Cid says he wished he could have taken Aerith on it. And she dies before you get the Highwind.


You can certainly think that there is real tragedy there because Cloud promised Aerith to go on it, that promise had romantic implications, and he would never take her up on that promise, and that's romantically sad. But it's not what makes her never going on the Highwind really sad, an airship, imo, always symbolized the skies- the adventure- and freedom. All of which was taken away from her.


So with the Cait Sith thing, yes it makes it sadder because we will never know if Cloud and Aerith would have gotten that great romance. But Cait Sith’s prediction was one line in a sea of self discovery, a gaining of a special kind of confidence, and her growth into the role as an Ancient.



Aerith’s life had promise, and Cloud was a part of it. Just not the biggest part. FFVII is rife with little things like that, small moments made more painful when you realize Aerith doesn’t get to live. Aerith’s mother waiting for her. Zack saying he wants to meet her. Aerith just missed going to her place of birth and not being able to see the videos of her mother and Ghast.



Anyway, that’s just how I saw it. Anon, if you want to interpret it as a romantic tragedy, then more power to you. You’re definitely not without evidence. My argument is less against the idea that love owns that scene and more of my rage against the continued twisting of FFVII’s themes so that it becomes only about shippings. Which if you weren’t trying to do, then that’s fine.


Ship hard, ship frequently. Or whatever.

I do view a part of what made Aerith so sad was that it destroyed the possibility of her being with Cloud. But I'm always suspicious of people trying to point to romance as the most important theme of a scene.

 

[Danseru-kun]

For fun purposes I will post the anon spam I received this day and my answers:

Have fun :>

Spoiler

You say that Aerith and Cloud are only pictured together in Yoshitaka Amano’s artwork because they are the hero and heroine of Final Fantasy VII, not because they are romantic love interests. But what stops Cloud and Aerith from being both the main hero and heroine of Final Fantasy VII *AND* romantic love interests? Isn’t that the case for the other couples?

Ahhh I never said Cloud and Aerith are drawn together *only* because they’re the main hero and heroine, I said Aerith herself is featured more than Tifa in merchandise and art because she’s the main heroine. It’s the same thing as saying Sephiroth is more featured than Tifa because he’s the main villain.

It’s not a question of eliminating the possibility of Cloud and Aerith being a romantic pair, it’s about looking at the relevant material. Nothing stops them but you gotta prove it using the story. It’s just my point art, marketing and merchandise made by people who wasn’t involved in the main story is not something I find to be substantial. If I want to look for Clerith connections, I would look at the story itself of the Compilation and guidebooks of course that are written by the authors to explain their work.
I assumed that you read my post two days ago and that was not even my point, my point is that you cannot use Clerith art and merch to shoot other pairings like Cloti.

As for the main hero and heroine being a romantic couple, it is the case in many titles but the set-up is not necessary. FFVI has Terra as the main heroine and possibly Locke as the hero(he’s considered for Dissidia) and they’re not lovers, the same can go with Cecil+Rydia, Vaan+Ashe, Lightning+Hope/Snow and Serah+Noel, Luneth+Refia.

So discounting FFVII, the titles that paired it’s main heroes and heroines at some point are FFII, FFVIII, FFIX, FFX vs FFIII, FFIV, FFVI, FFXII, FFXIII, FFXIII-2. The love interest is not always the main heroine. *Edit: FFIV is not included because Rydia is the main heroine.

Answer:


Again I told you I will not find anything substantial to an official artist who draw art before even the story is completed and he’s not even involved in the main story. I know an artist named Daisuke Ishiwatari who makes the story, the music and the character art of his own game. He draws a character named A.B.A. so much when you could omit her from the plot and nothing changes. Amano has nothing to do with the story when Daisuke does.

You are simply using a correlation. Religion is correlated to poverty but they do not directly cause one another. Amano artwork correlates with main couples but there’s no causation at work unless you prove Amano is involved in the story which he himself flatly says that he wasn’t.
You cannot make a logical connection between being featured as the main heroine and main hero in marketing and being romantically involved. I have shown you the example that Luke and Leia from Star Wars has more promotional material than Han Solo and Leia, the official couple.
You are again using a strawman against me, I do not deny any importance between Cloud and Aerith, I do not deny the possibility of their love, I do not deny they get preferential treatment in artwork and merchandise. I am simply saying that you cannot shoot down Cloti because there is nothing in those artwork and figurines that eliminates tear down established facts about Cloud and Tifa.

Words from the writers > Illustrations and figurines from another department that focuses on selling

Those things you mentioned can be used to support Clerith, you are free to do so but I see no merit in you trying to convince me Cloti is invalid because of Clerith elements. They’re mutually exclusive.
And now I will try to discover your identity ^^

Official artwork and merchandise, more often than not, correlates with the storyline. The fact that SE created & approved artwork/merchandise for Cloud x Aerith that is similar to other canon couples HIGHLY suggests that SE views Cloud x Aerith romantically. The artwork and storyline mirror and match each other. This becomes undeniable when you consider Cloud is Aerith's koibito, Cloud wavers between two heroines, Aerith is Tifa's "love rival", Cloud x Aerith are Emperor&Empress & the FFIX cameo

Don’t lecture me about correlation, I have a degree in economics. I can tell you that average penis length in nations and economic prosperity are in fact, correlated quadratically. Now that’s something.

I told you again and again, I find artwork to be insignificant. I need official statements. I do not deny that Cloud and Aerith has a deep relationship that is possibly romantic, but I haven’t found anything that specifies romance from Cloud’s part. Koibito is referring to Aerith’s feelings and cameos matters little than an actual plot.

Some people find Cloti evidence insignificant, it’s not my problem and likewise what you’re doing is a drill I’ve had for two years already I’m gonna answer the same way over and over like you did in the forums. It’s not your problem I don’t find Clerith canon, especially when I’m not writing any tagged essay that disproves Clerith. And if you convince me that Clerith is canon do you think that will magically make me a Clerith?

No one is trying to say that Cloti is "invalid" because of the artwork. We are simply trying to say that the artwork supports the belief that SE views Cloud and Aerith as a romantic couple. Why would SE approve artwork/merchandise for CxA that is similar to other canon couples? It's simply using COMMON SENSE that this artwork supports the idea that SE views Cloud and Aerith as a romantic couple. This becomes undeniable when you also take into consideration the storyline & SE's official quotes.

You are being defensive, in the essay I was addressing the idea that troubles Clotis: having no Amano artwork. My essay is titled: “Cloti has no Amano art, so what?”

It’s not “Clerith has Amano art and Cloti doesn’t so what? Cloti is still canon.”

A portion of my essay is spent on posting CloudxRedXIII, AeriSeph, SeymourYuna etc and showing how couples like Zerith and CelesxLocke don’t even have artwork.

Again the sales department is entirely separate from the creative team and the executives care what sells. For example movie trailers aren’t a reliable indicator of the film’s content, but they get approved because they catch the audience attention.

Again, I’m not denying Clerith has a connection, I just find merch and artwork insignificant and mutually exclusive from the story.

The word "koibito" means mutual romantic feelings, which means Cloud & Aerith have mutual romantic feelings. Cloud also tells Marlene he hopes Aerith likes him & he goes on two canon dates with Aerith (dates are inherently romantic). Plus, SE included a wedding prediction for Cloud x Aerith in FFVII, they made Cloud x Aerith & Emperor & Empress in Final Fantasy Airborne Brigade, & Cloud x Aerith have a flirtatious cameo in FFIX. That seems proof enough for me! The artwork simply reinforces this.

No koibito doesn’t mean that, I’ve had 6 units of Japanese, a few Japanese friends who are still my contacts in facebook. Koibito can be used to denote an object of affection. You’re also using a double standard, if koibito in your definition is mutual, then Tifa is certainly Cloud’s koibito because Tifa only loves Cloud.

I don’t like horoscope and predictions do you know that? Especially when the girl’s death happens just after she is predicted to be married. Reliable eh?

Cloud and Aerith are not in FFIX, they are alluded but they’re not in there. Zack flirts with Cissnei and the Shinra receptionist, it doesn’t mean he loves her.

Okay that’s Clerith proof to you congratulations! It’s your choice to believe and I do not question your intelligence but I honestly and respectfully disagree with you as I come from a different perspective. Plain and simple.

You honestly don't think those who created the artwork/merchandise did not seek input from those who created the characters/storyline? You really believe they didn't collaborate? SE would have to be the most dysfunctional video-game company in history if that's true! To me, the official artwork/merchandise match the storyline because it appears to me that SE did collaborate and decide that Cloud and Aerith are a romantic couple.

There’s no way to prove the degree of collaboration especially that facts show how companies have separate departments that are entirely independent of each other. These department recruit graduates from different collages, for example corporate planners don’t have anything to do with advertisement.

Yes they *may* have worked together but we cannot determine the degree and given the fact that Amano drew RedXIII and Cloud together three times that doesn’t seem to reflect much of the story.

Again congratulations you have your proof! For me and for many, many shippers it’s not. Actually if art and merch determines things then many yaoi pairs are actually canonized. Even heard of Spock and Kirk and Star Trek?

It was a romantic prediction about her future with Cloud, not just a generic prediction about her future. So given the context of the game and how things were progressing between Cloud and Aerith, it is obvious why SE included this wedding prediction — so the gamer would have the idea in their head that Cloud and Aerith had the possibility of sharing a romantic future together, which would then be destroyed by the hands of the evil Sephiroth.

Precisely, now that future is gone. It never happened. Even Nojima says Aerith is a potential partner for Cloud but Aerith’s dead.

If SE had killed Barret, I can guarantee you that it would not have been as memorable or as impactful to the gamer. One of the biggest reasons Aerith's death is so sad is because she wasn't just a friend to Cloud. Aerith had a possible romantic future with Cloud, which is exactly what SE wanted us to think, so that when they killed her, it was that much more painful and heartbreaking for those of us playing the game. Luckily, their love transcends traditional barriers and continues in spirit.

I was sad too when I played the game, I find Zack’s death to be sadder and more heartbreaking but it’s just me.

Yes I believe death cannot stop love I have widows in my family who will always love their dead spouses. They had a possible future that they will grow old together but that’s now gone, but their love will always be there.

LOL so Yoshitaka Amano hardly collaborated with those who created the storyline/characters and magically decided to create 5 pieces of art that were of Cloud and Aerith. How did he even know that they were the hero and heroine of the game if they hardly collaborated?

I can pay an artist right now to draw my main hero and heroine in my original story and tell him nothing about the script, plot twists and events and stuff. Yes we collaborated but if you’re going to ask him about the story good luck finding answers.

It’s funny that Amano doesn’t have any interview where he comments on the story isn’t it? And Nomura/Nojima/Kitase wasn’t asked anything about Amano art either. LOL

Have you even played any of the Final Fantasy's? Love beyond death is a common theme in Final Fantasy (Tidus x Yuna, Shuyin x Lenne, Laguna x Raine, Ashe x Rasler, etc.) Plus, in Final Fantasy VII, you have Vincent’s bond with Lucrecia. Vincent can see her and speak with her in DoC, similar to the way Cloud can interact with Aerith in AC/ACC. Cloud and Aerith's love did not stop when she died. That's like saying your love for a deceased parent stops when they die. What sort of logic is that?

When did I say that love stops when a person dies?
(◕‿◕&#10047

In FFIX, the Flower Girl calls Knight VII “cute” and Knight VII calls the Flower Girl “beautiful”. Are you really going to deny that SE put this in FFIX as a cameo to Cloud and Aerith's romantic relationship? REALLY? That is the biggest denial of common sense that I have ever witnessed.

my friend said I should say
“Okay Cali”
(◡‿◡&#10047

So Amano is just some random guy SE decided to pay and do artwork for multiple Final Fantasy titles and has no clue about the storyline of any of the games? And SE didn't give him any guidance or insight into what sort of artwork they wanted, Amano just magically knew who the main couples were for FFVII, FFVIII, FFIX and FFX. ROFL.

You are making assumptions on Amano’s involvement, SE’s involvement and knowledge when he makes the drawings which none of us can answer. Maybe you should ask him yourself.

But the fact remains he’s credited as an illustrator and there is no such interview asking him about the meaning behind his work, nor do the writers like Nojima have any interview about the relationship of the artwork to their story. The fact is that Amano said he has no involvement in making the story and ignoring the fact that he makes art that doesn’t reflect the story (Red XIIIx Cloud and AeriSeph) makes your argument weak.
I mentioned a few times already, you think the drawings are proof, I don’t think they are. We are allowed to have different perspectives.

:: denying Amano collaborating with SE on who the main couples are for Final Fantasy 7, 8, 9 and 10 is a denial of COMMON SENSE.

I never said they didn’t work together, you’re making things up. It’s common sense that you at least find anything I said that actually existed. My point was the degree of collaboration between the artist and the writer is unknown and

Amano himself said he has nothing to do with the story and he was only officially credited as illustrator.

Stop saying things you didn't say!... oh... wait

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Yeah, I agree with your sentiments entirely, Splint. It's sadder because she had a chance for a fulfilled life, but the saddest part is that she won't have a chance to experience anything more -- not snowball fights, not kisses, not anything.

Cloud's own words sum it up well. He's upset not because "I won't get to marry her," but because "Aeris will no longer talk, no longer laugh, cry...... or get angry...... ."

Crying and getting angry aren't typically seen as positive things, but being able to experience them? A very positive thing, and, thus, there is tragedy in that she no longer can.

 

[OneWingedDemon]

The greatest tragedy of all was that Aeris never got to know Cloud in the biblical sense. Everyone knows this. I mean, what other purpose does a woman have?

 

[Strangelove]

i saw the words 'canon dates' and i tuned out

 

[Danseru-kun]

I got another anon message, I've posted too much today I won't answer it

lol @ pretending you didn't say things that you were obviously implying. it's always great to be purposely vague so when called on it you can say, "I didn't say that!". by saying we don't know exactly how much SE and Amano collaborated is ignoring the BIG PICTURE & trying to downplay the significance of his artwork. the big picture is that this is official artwork that SE approved of. they obviously hired him & gave him some direction/guidance. he drew 5 CxA pictures and no CxT pictures. period.

 

[Splintered]

I saw a lot of the Amano debate pop up. Which, imo, is fair game. Amano released some concept art, a lot of it shows the connection between Aerith and Cloud. It makes sense to me. It doesn't hurt I like a lot of his stuff.

But for the love of all that's holy, I can't take the Emperor/Empress thing seriously. Especially since the first thing that pops in my head is the terribly crap quality that Squeenix has been pushing out to capitalize on its franchise. I can't take something that is obviously crapped out by a team probably not affiliated with the original game and obviously not giving a shit with any sort of credence.

Enjoy the fanservice of course, that's what it's for. But for me, even I have a limit to enjoying the drivel they pour on us. And I played DoC till the end.

 

[Danseru-kun]

^

The problem with Amano art is when you try to use it as a proof to convince others that SE prefers Clerith over Cloti and that because Cloti wasn't drawn they're not an official couple.

 

[Octo]

Heres a contentious point, weren't Japanese royal marriages arranged? Hmmmmmm?

 

[Danseru-kun]

Heres a contentious point, weren't Japanese royal marriages arranged? Hmmmmmm?

And emperors usually have mistresses they love

 

[Selphie Tilmitt]

That's fair enough, but I don't want to see any of you fangasming out over the new Squall/Rinoa thing now

East meets West!?

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BNIbPleCUAA53tJ.png

I had a feeling they were going to do something like this with Squall/Rinoa/for FFVIII tbh though part of me wishes for the wedding themes or w/e they had went for the western theme for FFVII instead

I agree some about the Amano art, and other stuff, it's nice Cleris/Clerith have some official backing but to wield it against Cloud/Tifa? (note there is a distinct difference between defending Clerith/a pairing you love and attacking Cloti and/or vice verca, same going for other pairings in other mediums as well) I'm with Splint I think, I never saw the point of trying to use positive stuffs/stuffs that paints your pairing in a positive light to try to destroy another pairing or w/e, to try and defend your pairing if it gets bashed sure I guess, but yeah

Spoiler

 

[Danseru-kun]

^

The thing is that some Clotis like me think Amano art isn't very significant compared to the actual story and that his drawings are his own interpretation and does not necessarily reflect important story elements, but this somehow offends certain Cleriths and I got accused of "downplaying Clerith" and "denying common sense." I mean, how was I downplaying Clerith by arguing that the lack of Cloti Amano art doesn't downplay a Cloti?

Some even reject Ultimanias and only accept meta, it's their choice and I respect that.

 

[Lex]

I don't get the fixation with Amano art when he's said in numerous interviews he's never even touched the games and is told what to draw to begin with. I don't think it's reaching to say he doesn't have a clue about the story or characters besides what he's told to draw.

 

[Kermitu Kleric Katie]

i saw the words 'canon dates' and i tuned out

C'mon hito, we all know the Cid date is the canon one.