The Love Triangle Debate thread of KNEEL BEFORE ZOD OR SUFFER HIS WRATH (ignore the opening posts at your peril) (Round 6)

[BlankBeat]

...he's never even touched the games and is told what to draw to begin with.

Exactly.

 

[Kermitu Kleric Katie]

Yeah, Cloud/Red is so canon.

 

[Danseru-kun]

I don't get the fixation with Amano art when he's said in numerous interviews he's never even touched the games and is told what to draw to begin with. I don't think it's reaching to say he doesn't have a clue about the story or characters besides what he's told to draw.

Do you have any interview or anything that can tell more about Amano? I would like more to learn about the process of his work. I got the impression aside from being told to draw concept art, he's free to draw his interpretation too. I'm not saying that he has no clue about the characters and the story (as some people think I was saying) but I find the degree of collaboration indefinite for us to draw conclusion based from his drawings. That somehow insults people who think his drawings are more important than I think they are.

Like I said, I can hire an artist and tell him to draw the characters I like to be drawn and I tell you in my own story my favorite pair is not a romantic pair. Again, I'm not saying Clerith and Clerith art has no significance at all, they got a few drawings, but for me the amount of drawings they get isn't evidence for mutual romantic feelings.

 

[Roger]

http://kotaku.com/5952339/the-artist-behind-final-fantasy-just-wants-to-draw-cute-girls

 

[Danseru-kun]

My gosh that helps sooooo much

 

[Roger]

Well then the answet is no, he really doesn't go into it more thoroughly anywhere else.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

But the question remains: Do they tell him to cover all his stuff with whale puke, and sometimes even random whales puking, or is that all him?

 

[Dashell]

Even if Cloud and Aerith were at one point in development, the only romantic couple, and Amano was told to draw them as such... uhm... so what? Things change. Aerith and Seph were a couple once too. Tifa and Cloud had sex in a chocobo stable. Yuffie was a bounty hunter.

I don't see what the big deal is.

It's those damn double standards again. in Early development Cloud and Aerith were drawn together and it's a big deal cause canon couples and yadiyada! But when a Cloti brings up the sex in the chocobo stables scene it's "Oh but that didn't actually happen, it was just an idea they had!"

If the artwork is portraying them as a couple... how is it any different from the sex scene or any other idea they had but didn't go with?


EDIT

And I'm not trying to say that there's NO evidence at all for Cloud and Aerith, obviously there is. I'm just wondering what the difference is here. Especially when we know that at one point Seph and Aerith were a couple... wouldn't that mean she was NOT with Cloud at the time? (please correct me if I'm wrong at this BTW)

 

[BlankBeat]

If the artwork is portraying them as a couple... how is it any different from the sex scene or any other idea they had but didn't go with?

Because they did go with the idea that Cloud and Aerith are a couple (which isn't to say that Cloud and Tifa are not a couple, it just depends on the way you play the game/your interpretation).

 

[Dashell]

Because they did go with the idea that Cloud and Aerith are a couple (which isn't to say that Cloud and Tifa are not a couple, it just depends on the way you play the game/your interpretation).

And they went with Cloud and Tifa having sex so


But yeah you basically just gave me the logic of "Cloud and Aerith are portrayed as a couple in Amano's art because they're a couple!"... you need to back that up, you know?

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I'm slow, so I need someone to explain the way interpreting the story through Amano's art works.

Okay, Amano drew Aerith and Cloud together four times (five if you count the group shot of Cloud, Aerith, Red and Barret), so that tells us they're a couple or something.

He also drew Cloud and Red together three times (four if you count the aforementinoed group shot). This means ... what? That Red is Cloud's next most significant relationship in the story? Because I would disagree. I'd say his relationship with Tifa is far more important, yet they don't have a single image from Amano together. I'd even say his relationship with Barret is more important, but they don't have any picture together aside from that group image.

Hell, that's the only time Amano has ever drawn Barret as far as I know, and he never drew Yuffie, Cid or Cait Sith -- guess those three just don't matter.

Cloud and Seph didn't even have a drawing together from Amano until the FF 25th Anniversary Box (they're on the disc art for FFVII together). So, is that not relevant?

What about Squall and Rinoa in FFVIII? They get one Amano image together, while Squall and Seifer have two together, and then four other images (two each) where they're drawn in contrast to one another. Fuck, Seifer's not even important past Disc 2 of that game.

And there's even a picture of Squall relaxing with Selphie, no Rinoa in sight. So Selphie and Rinoa have the same number of images together with Squall (there's also a group image of the whole team together).

What does it all mean?

Could it just be Amano draws whatever he feels like?

 

[BlankBeat]

And they went with Cloud and Tifa having sex so

Why is it assumed that sex happened in the HAHW scene and not cuddling or a kiss?

Even if the HAHW scene is canon, it does not prove a romantic relationship exists between Cloud and Tifa. Expressing mutual feelings =/= romantic relationship.

I’d argue that Cloud and Tifa did not move into a romantic relationship after the HAHW scene because of these reasons:

1. Cloud, Tifa, and Barret create a family together after the HAHW scene. Marlene is Barret’s daughter and invites Cloud into their family.

2. The family formed was not created for romantic reasons or formed from a romantic place like most families are.

3. Living together =/= romantic relationship. Remember Cid and Shera in FFVII?

4. Tifa doesn’t know if Cloud loves her *AFTER* the HAHW scene:

“Do you love me?”
Cloud opened his eyes. He looked perplexed.
“Hey, Cloud. Do you love Marlene?”
“Yeah. But… sometimes I don’t know how to act around her.” ~Case of Tifa

This tells me that whatever was expressed during the HAHW scene did not necessarily go beyond the HAHW scene because Tifa doesn’t know if Cloud loves her.

5. Nomura doesn’t know the nature of Cloud and Tifa’s relationship *AFTER* the HAHW scene:

“For example, I was frequently asked if there had been romantic relationship between Tifa and Cloud for two years, after FF7 ended, but I don’t have any clue.” ~Nomura, Dorimaga interview, published at Flaregamer

6. The official Advent Children relationship chart lists Cloud and Tifa as childhood friends *only*.

7. Cloud has a separate bed in his private room.

8. Denzel and Barret are apart of the same family, it’s just that Denzel is not *living* with Barret, which is why Barret does not appear in any of the quotes that talk about Cloud, Tifa, Marlene, and Denzel *living* together. Remember this quote?

“After visiting various locations with Tifa and Barret, Tifa opened the “Seventh Heaven” bar. Before setting off on a journey, Barret left Marlene in Cloud and Tifa’s care, and the three of them began living together.” ~CoT

It says that the “three of them [Cloud, Tifa, Marlene]” began *living* together *AFTER* Barret set off on a “journey”. This unequivocally proves that when the words “live”/”living”/”lived” are used to describe Cloud, Tifa, Marlene, and Denzel, it is *ONLY* excluding Barret because Barret is not *TECHNICALLY* “living” with them.

9. “The staff has their own answers to all the scenes in the movie such as the angel statue that makes an appearance many times. But, even if someone who has watched it interprets it differently, then that is just another answer.” ~Nomura

10. Expressing mutual feelings =/= romantic relationship.

Although this is a reasonable assumption, it is *NOT* always the case that expressing mutual feelings means a romantic relationship begins.

As we can see, Cloud and Tifa are living in a world of very rare and unique circumstances that I believe prevented them from ever turning their mutual feelings into a romantic relationship.

I’d also argue that once Cloud realized he could connect with Aerith spiritually at the end of FFVII, he began to search for ways to be with Aerith and connect with her. Love beyond death is a repeated theme in the Final Fantasy franchise. In fact, Tifa expresses jealousy over Cloud visiting Aerith’s Church and because the reason Cloud might be dragging around the past may, “perhaps be related to Aerith”. Tifa has repeatedly been jealous of her “LOVE RIVAL” throughout the entire FFVII compilation.

There is no unequivocal scene that moves Cloud and Tifa from friends to lovers. No kiss. No sleeping in the same bed. NOTHING. Until you can show me where SE has said, “Cloud loves Tifa” or a scene that is undeniably romantic between Cloud and Tifa, all you have is Cloud and Tifa expressing mutual feelings, which we all know does not have to lead to a relationship. And with the reasons I listed above, it is obvious that Cloud and Tifa did not move from friends to lovers.

In fact, some would argue that the HAHW scene is NOT canon.

The bottom line is: of the love triangles on SE’s “For The One I Love Page” (FTOIL), Cloud Strife is the only hero involved in a love triangle pictured with both of his romantic love interests in two canon scenes of romance (see the first row of images). Since Cloud is pictured with both Aerith and Tifa on a page discussing romantic love, the FFVII love triangle is the only unsolved Final Fantasy love triangle.

Some say that because the caption under Cloud and Aerith’s date doesn’t directly mention Aerith by name, it somehow invalidates Cloud and Aerith’s presence on the FTOIL page. However, the Cloud x Aerith date *IS* canon. Therefore, the caption is irrelevant. The caption under Cloud and Aerith’s was there to represent *ALL* the dates on the FTOIL page because *ALL* the dates are romantic (ie: because they are *DATES*). However, SE pictured Cloud and Aerith’s date because it is the *canon* date, and because we are meant to apply the FTOIL page directly to their canon date. The reason we only see the HA Highwind scene on the FTOIL page is because it would have been inappropriate to discuss or include the LA Highwind scene on a page titled “For The One I Love”. But if you could get different characters for the HA Highwind scene like you can for the date, that would have also been included on the FTOIL page. SE lists a reference page above Cloud and Tifa’s image on the FTOIL page so readers can find out that the HA version is not the *only* version, the HA version is simply the only appropriate version of the Highwind scene to include on the FTOIL page. Since Cloud is pictured with both of his love interests in two canon scenes of romance on a page titled, “For The One I Love,” Cloud can love either Aerith or Tifa. In other words, all the other love triangles have been solved *EXCEPT* for Final Fantasy VII because Cloud Strife is the only hero involved in a love triangle pictured with *BOTH* of his romantic love interests.

There is just as much evidence to support Cloud x Aerith as there is to support Cloud x Tifa. Period.

But yeah you basically just gave me the logic of "Cloud and Aerith are portrayed as a couple in Amano's art because they're a couple!"... you need to back that up, you know?

I have backed it up. But here I go again:

1. "Cloud was her friend, her *koibito* (lover in Japanese) - a symbol of what was important to her, and someone to be protected." ~Case of Lifestream: White, Square Enix

2. Of the love triangles on SE's "For The One I Love Page" (FTOIL), Cloud Strife is the only hero involved in a love triangle pictured with both of his romantic love interests in two canon scenes of romance. Since Cloud is pictured with both Aerith and Tifa on a page discussing romantic love, the FFVII love triangle is the only unsolved Final Fantasy love triangle.

Some say that because the caption under Cloud and Aerith's date doesn't directly mention Aerith by name, it somehow invalidates Cloud and Aerith's presence on the FTOIL page. However, the Cloud x Aerith date *IS* canon. Therefore, the caption is irrelevant. The caption under Cloud and Aerith's was there to represent *ALL* the dates on the FTOIL page because *ALL* the dates are romantic (ie: because they are *DATES*). However, SE pictured Cloud and Aerith's date because it is the *canon* date, and because we are meant to apply the FTOIL page directly to their canon date. The reason we only see the HA Highwind scene on the FTOIL page is because it would have been inappropriate to discuss or include the LA Highwind scene on a page titled "For The One I Love". But if you could get different characters for the HA Highwind scene like you can for the date, that would have also been included on the FTOIL page. SE lists a reference page above Cloud and Tifa's image on the FTOIL page so readers can find out that the HA version is not the *only* version, the HA version is simply the only appropriate version of the Highwind scene to include on the FTOIL page. Since Cloud is pictured with both of his love interests in two canon scenes of romance on a page titled, "For The One I Love," Cloud can love either Aerith or Tifa. In other words, all the other love triangles have been solved *EXCEPT* for Final Fantasy VII because Cloud Strife is the only hero involved in a love triangle pictured with *BOTH* of his romantic love interests.

3. The Cloud x Aerith Golden Saucer date is confirmed as canon within the compilation:

A: "#111: The Planet's largest amusement park is run by Dio. Cloud and company visit this place many times in their battle. They meet Cait Sith here. A PROMISED date [there is only one promised date in the game] that ends in a magical night. In the city of desire that floats above the sands, the light memory of the two people is asleep even now…Aerith: "I think I must have seen him again, in you… But you're different. Things are different… No, Cloud… I'm searching for you…" ~Final Fantasy Art Collection
B:"In Aerith's case, if you play the game normally,the partner that generally comes will be Aerith." ~Final Fantasy VII Dismantled
C:"Oh, Cloud…I enjoyed our date at the Gold Saucer. The view from the gondola that night was really beautiful. I'll never forget it. I'll never forget you, Cloud…" ~Aerith, Final Fantasy VII Dismantled, Square Enix

4. "Each carries their own feelings and love for Aerith. In this story, Cloud also carries his undying feeling for Aerith even to this very day…" ~Nomura, Square Enix

When *undying* is applied to a feeling or emotion that someone has, it is eternal and forever. So although you can make the argument that *undying* when applied to a fictional creature doesn't mean eternal and forever, when the word "eternal" is applied to a human emotion or feeling, it *IS* eternal and forever. Therefore, it does not make sense that Nomura would be referring to Cloud's guilt as *undying* when the entire point of the movie is to rid Cloud of his guilt.

5. "There's no relationship from FFVII to the Kingdom Hearts stories. I consider them separate stories. But if you play Kingdom Hearts, toward the end, some of the questions about the relationship between Cloud and Aeris in Final Fantasy VII might be answered." ~Nomura, Square Enix

Nomura specifically says that although the two universes of Kingdom Hearts and FFVII are separate, the Kingdom Hearts universe might help answer questions about the relationship between Cloud and Aerith as it pertains to Final Fantasy VII's universe. Cloud and Aerith are seen together at the end of Kingdom Hearts similar to other romantic couples.

6. Aerith Gainsborough: "A girl with the blood of the Ancients flowing through her veins who is engraved in Cloud's heart for the rest of his life" ~DoC Japanese game manual direct translation, Square Enix

7. "Looks good. You are perfect for each other!" "Aerith's star and Cloud's star! They show a great future!" — "Poor Tifa!"~Cait Sith, Final Fantasy VII

"After solving the puzzle about Cait Sith's replaceable body, he tells one last fortune of Cloud and Aerith's affinity. Cait Sith's lines, which seem to expect Cloud and Aerith's wedding, now makes it more painful." ~Final Fantasy VII Dismantled, Square Enix

The argument about Cait Sith's prediction should not revolve around how reliable he is. The argument should be about what was SE's intent for including this wedding prediction in the game. SE could have had Aerith ask Cait Sith about her future and Cait Sith could have said, "You will have a bright future full of many happy times!" — this would have set the player up to get their heart broken when she was killed by Sephiroth. Instead, they specifically decided to include a prediction about Aerith's romantic future with Cloud. It was a romantic prediction about her future with Cloud, not just a generic prediction about her future. So given the context of the game and how things were progressing between Cloud and Aerith, it is obvious why SE included this wedding prediction — so the gamer would have the idea in their head that Cloud and Aerith had the possibility of sharing a romantic future together, which would then be destroyed by the hands of the evil Sephiroth. A generic prediction about Aerith's future would not have been nearly as meaningful or impactful to the gamer, which is why they specifically made the prediction about Aerith's romantic future with Cloud. The romance that was clearly developing between Cloud and Aerith, in addition to a prediction about a their romantic future together, makes her death all the more sad. SE killed off a romantic love interest to Cloud because it would be more impactful to the gamer. If SE had killed Barret, I can guarantee you that it would not have been as memorable or as impactful to the gamer. One of the biggest reasons Aerith's death is so sad is because she wasn't just a friend to Cloud. Aerith had a possible romantic future with Cloud, which is exactly what SE wanted us to think, so that when they killed her, it was that much more painful and heartbreaking for those of us playing the game. Luckily, their love transcends traditional barriers and continues in the spiritual world. Furthermore, SE refers to this prediction as a wedding prediction. Why would they refer to it as a wedding prediction if it was not meant to highlight the romantic connection Cloud and Aerith have in the game?

8. "You should have… An older girlfriend, one that would take care of you. I think that would be the perfect type for you." ~Mrs. Strife (Cloud's Mom)

I'm looking at this quote from SE's intent. Obviously Cloud's Mom saying this means nothing. But what was SE's intent for including this? Why would they choose for Cloud to have this flashback while he was sleeping in Aerith's house? Just to provide some context: Cloud had just met Aerith. He agreed to be her bodyguard for the price of one date. He had just spent time laughing with her. Protecting her. Then while Cloud is sleeping in her house, SE decides to throw in this flashback where Cloud's Mother talks about girlfriends and dating someone older. Then right after this flashback is over, you see Cloud in his room and Aerith in her room. Clearly this was meant to set these two up as romantic love interests.

9. "Marlene is a sharp girl - Even though she's only 4 years old, Marlene is perceptive and well attuned to the woman mind. The scene where she ascertains that Aerith has favor for Cloud and tells him so, then says "I won't tell Tifa!" demonstrates this grownup behavior." ~Final Fantasy VII, 25th Anniversary Ultimania

Therefore, this is the canon version of this scene:

Marlene: "Guess what? Guess what? Aeris was asking me lots of questions. Like what kind of person Cloud is. I bet she likes you, Cloud!"

Cloud: "Let's hope so."

Marlene: "I won't tell Tifa."

10. Cloud and Aerith share their first of two dates at Green Park in the Sector 6 Slum: "Date in the Park: In Scene 04-10, Zack and Aerith have a date in Green Park in the sector 6 slum. An identical situation is seen in "FFVII" as well, which features a scene of Cloud and Aerith on a date in the same park." ~CC Ultimania, Square Enix

11. "After the explosion of First Reactor, Cloud met Aerith while running away alone. Cloud left the place, remembering the mysterious feeling he had for Aerith from the small conversation. He then reunited with AVALANCHE safely, and left for their base…" ~Final Fantasy VII Story Playback, Page 111

12. "It was the sound of Cloud's heart cracking. It was the cry of his heart that could never be healed of the grief he had towards Aerith's death, the blame towards himself and the hatred he had for Sephiroth…There was nothing she could do about Cloud's suffering and the pain ached in her heart." ~Maiden of the Planet, Square Enix

13. Final Fantasy Dissidia: At the end of Dissidia, Cloud is seen entering a flower field. This flower field is eerily similar to the flower fields Aerith has appeared in, and the flower field shown during the ending credits of Advent Children. Cloud is also holding Aerith's Holy materia. Before this takes place, it is stated by Zidane that each character is, "…returning to where we're supposed to be." Cloud is supposed to be with Aerith, which is why he returns to a flower field. Interestingly, Squall of Final Fantasy VIII is seen leaving when a white feather falls from the sky. This feather represents Rinoa. The parallels between Cloud x Aerith and Squall x Rinoa are obvious. During the game Cloud also says, "The one I really want to meet is…" And although he doesn't finish his sentence, given the ending scene of Dissidia and the ending of Final Fantasy VII, it is clear who Cloud has a desire to meet in the Promised Land.

14. Final Fantasy IX: The Flower Girl calls Knight VII "cute" and he calls the Flower Girl "beautiful". Their entire conversation is very flirtatious and romantic.

15. Cloud: "Here I met a flower girl. She's a girl with impressive eyes. She's around my age, or older by one or two years but the innocent radiance in her eyes simply makes her suddenly look younger. (&#8230 Maybe she's pleased that the flower was sold, because the worried look on her face had vanished. If this smile costs only one gil, it is a good purchase." ~Final Fantasy Dismantled

16. "And having two heroines, Aerith and Tifa, and having the hero waver between them, at the time that was something new." ~Interview with the creators, pg. 8-13, 10th Anniversary Ultimania

17. SE officially named Cloud and Aerith the Emperor and Empress in Final Fantasy Airborne Brigade



All of these reasons clearly tell me that Cloud and Aerith have the possibility of being a romantic couple in Final Fantasy VII. The Amano artwork simply reinforces and verifies this.

 

[Ryushikaze]

But the question remains: Do they tell him to cover all his stuff with whale puke, and sometimes even random whales puking, or is that all him?

Hey now, don't be hating on Amano.

The man has genuine talent. He totally phones shit in at time, but he does good work when he gives a shit.

Also, there IS no motherfucking logic to the 'Amano art together so canon pairing' nonsense.

Squall and Yuffie have art together. It took 17 years for Cecil and Rosa to share an Amano art. And it had to include their kid, too.

Cloud is the only hero who has multiple romantic confessions in a single playthrough. The for the one I love page is about displays of romantic affection and confessions. It doesn't mean his triangle is unsolved. It MEANS he has multiple confessions to deal with.

Even if we assume Cloud was serious about Aerith before the highwind scene, as a result of that scene and the confessions contained therein, Cloud lives with Tifa. He has made his choice.

He and Tifa live together, formed a family together, have a future together. The motherfucking Triangle is not unresolved.

 

[Kermitu Kleric Katie]

it just depends on the way you play the game/your interpretation).

Oh God not this argument again. I swear to God, if I hear the word "interpretation" one more time...

 

[BlankBeat]

Even if we assume Cloud was serious about Aerith before the highwind scene, as a result of that scene and the confessions contained therein, Cloud lives with Tifa. He has made his choice.

How does living together automatically mean Cloud made a choice to be with Tifa?

Cid and Shera lived together in FFVII. Does that mean they were a couple in Final Fantasy VII? If I remember correctly, Cid and Shera only became a couple after they got married (something Cloud and Tifa never do). To assume that living together means Cloud and Tifa are in a relationship is an assumption based on no evidence.

Also remember that Cloud is shown to have a bed in a separate room.

People often say that because there is a lack of other furniture in Cloud’s room (like a dresser), it somehow invalidates the fact that Cloud has a bed in his room. But how does not having other furniture mean Cloud can’t sleep in that bed? The point is, I find it hard to believe that SE would include a random bed in Cloud’s room just for the hell of it. If Cloud doesn’t sleep there, who does? Until we see Cloud and Tifa sleeping together, it only makes sense that Cloud sleeps in the bed found in his room. This is evidence that a romantic relationship did not begin between Cloud and Tifa after the Highwind scene.

He and Tifa live together,

1. Cid and Shera lived together, too.
2. Cloud has a separate room with a bed.
3. Tifa admits to not knowing if Cloud loves her after the HAHW scene.
4. Cloud visits Aerith's Church and Tifa gets jealous over it. SE specifies Tifa's jealousy over Cloud visiting Aerith's Church in the same passage where it talks about Tifa getting jealous of the world Cloud is forming with Aerith (aka: Tifa's "love rival"):

“The thing which she is unable to hide in her irritation towards Cloud is the fact that he isn’t merely dragging the past around, but because that reason might perhaps be related to Aerith.

FFVII: Seeing Cloud and Aerith developing their world together before her eyes, she inadvertently lets slip her peevish feelings.

AC: Upon knowing that Cloud had been residing in Aerith’s church after leaving the place they had been living in together, her expression becomes complex.” ~Tifa’s character profile, 10th Anniversary Ultimania

One of the lines specifically says that Tifa let her “peevish feelings” slip when she saw Cloud and Aerith developing their “own world” together. Why would Tifa be jealous if Aerith was only developing a world of friendship with Cloud? It is clear that Tifa is jealous of the world her “love rival” is forming with Cloud because the world he is forming with Tifa’s “love rival” is romantic, which is exactly why Aerith is considered Tifa’s love rival in the first place. Tifa continues to be jealous of Cloud and Aerith’s “world” during Advent Children, probably because she admits she doesn’t know if Cloud loves her.

formed a family together, have a future together. The motherfucking Triangle is not unresolved.

This family was formed with Barret and Marlene. It was not formed for romantic reasons or from a romantic place. Remember, Marlene invites Cloud into her family and Tifa also admits that they are not a "real" family.

Also, in case you didn't read this:

Denzel and Barret are apart of the same family, it’s just that Denzel is not *living* with Barret, which is why Barret does not appear in any of the quotes that talk about Cloud, Tifa, Marlene, and Denzel *living* together. Remember this quote?

“After visiting various locations with Tifa and Barret, Tifa opened the “Seventh Heaven” bar. Before setting off on a journey, Barret left Marlene in Cloud and Tifa’s care, and the three of them began living together.” ~Case of Tifa

It says that the, “three of them [Cloud, Tifa, Marlene]” began *living* together *AFTER* Barret set off on a “journey”. This unequivocally proves that when the words “live”/”living”/”lived” are used to describe Cloud, Tifa, Marlene, and Denzel, it is ONLY excluding Barret because Barret is not TECHNICALLY “living” with them.

The fact that Tifa doesn't know if Cloud loves her after the HAHW scene proves that a romantic relationship does not necessarily exist between Cloud and Tifa after the HAHW scene. This is further confirmed by the fact that the family formed was formed with and includes Barret, and the fact that Cloud has his own room with a bed in it. It is also worth noting that Tifa is jealous of Cloud visiting Aerith's Church, and repeatedly ignores Tifa's calls. The relationship that we see between Cloud and Tifa tells me that whatever was expressed during the HAHW scene did not necessarily lead to a romantic relationship. What evidence do you have that unequivocally shows a romantic relationship between Cloud and Tifa after the HAHW scene?

Again: expressing mutual feelings =/= romantic relationship.

Oh, and then there's this little gem that Cloti's try to say is mistranslated (only because it nukes their ship):

“For example, I was frequently asked if there had been romantic relationship between Tifa and Cloud for two years, after FF7 ended, but I don’t have any clue.” ~Nomura, Dorimaga interview, published at Flaregamer

 

[Roger]

Why is it assumed that sex happened in the HAHW scene and not cuddling or a kiss?

Even if the HAHW scene is canon, it does not prove a romantic relationship exists between Cloud and Tifa. Expressing mutual feelings =/= romantic relationship.

I’d argue that Cloud and Tifa did not move into a romantic relationship after the HAHW scene because of these reasons:

1. Cloud, Tifa, and Barret create a family together after the HAHW scene. Marlene is Barret’s daughter and invites Cloud into their family.

Marlene wasn't with them after the HAHW scene. After the end of the game, Cloud nd Tif stayed together even after everyone including Barret went their own way, it was most certainly nor Marlene's decision t invite Cloud anywhere.

2. The family formed was not created for romantic reasons or formed from a romantic place like most families are.

So? how exactly would Marlene and Barret have formed a family for Cloti-romance related reasons to your satisfaction exactly?

3. Living together =/= romantic relationship. Remember Cid and Shera in FFVII?

I do, I assume you don't if you compare either Tifa or Cloud's treatment of each other to Cid's treatment of Shera.

4. Tifa doesn’t know if Cloud loves her *AFTER* the HAHW scene:

“Do you love me?”
Cloud opened his eyes. He looked perplexed.
“Hey, Cloud. Do you love Marlene?”
“Yeah. But… sometimes I don’t know how to act around her.” ~Case of Tifa

This tells me that whatever was expressed during the HAHW scene did not necessarily go beyond the HAHW scene because Tifa doesn’t know if Cloud loves her.

If their relationship died, then why ask? Why was she in Cloud's bedroom in the dead of night anyway? And then stay till the break of dawn waiting for an answer?

5. Nomura doesn’t know the nature of Cloud and Tifa’s relationship *AFTER* the HAHW scene:

“For example, I was frequently asked if there had been romantic relationship between Tifa and Cloud for two years, after FF7 ended, but I don’t have any clue.” ~Nomura, Dorimaga interview, published at Flaregamer

6. The official Advent Children relationship chart lists Cloud and Tifa as childhood friends *only*.

You JUST quoted the director of Advent Children saying he doesn't know at all. You are capable of understanding that cuts both ways right?

7. Cloud has a separate bed in his private room.

The average husband hs more comfortable floors they can sleep on in any given room of their house then that thing, what's your point?

8. Denzel and Barret are apart of the same family, it’s just that Denzel is not *living* with Barret, which is why Barret does not appear in any of the quotes that talk about Cloud, Tifa, Marlene, and Denzel *living* together. Remember this quote?

“After visiting various locations with Tifa and Barret, Tifa opened the “Seventh Heaven” bar. Before setting off on a journey, Barret left Marlene in Cloud and Tifa’s care, and the three of them began living together.” ~CoT

It says that the “three of them [Cloud, Tifa, Marlene]” began *living* together *AFTER* Barret set off on a “journey”. This unequivocally proves that when the words “live”/”living”/”lived” are used to describe Cloud, Tifa, Marlene, and Denzel, it is *ONLY* excluding Barret because Barret is not *TECHNICALLY* “living” with them.

WHY DOES THIS MATTER?! How does Barret's presence make Tifa and Cloud not a couple? What is he doing in your eyes to make this happen?

Although this is a reasonable assumption, it is *NOT* always the case that expressing mutual feelings means a romantic relationship begins.

It also not always the case that when someone dies, never manages to confirm their mutual feelings or even meet the true self of the other person at all that they then somehow start a relationship.

I’d also argue that once Cloud realized he could connect with Aerith spiritually at the end of FFVII, he began to search for ways to be with Aerith and connect with her. Love beyond death is a repeated theme in the Final Fantasy franchise. In fact, Tifa expresses jealousy over Cloud visiting Aerith’s Church and because the reason Cloud might be dragging around the past may, “perhaps be related to Aerith”. Tifa has repeatedly been jealous of her “LOVE RIVAL” throughout the entire FFVII compilation.

I'd argue that he didn't. Given that we read about what he does after the end of FFVII and that's not what he does.

There is no unequivocal scene that moves Cloud and Tifa from friends to lovers. No kiss. No sleeping in the same bed. NOTHING. Until you can show me where SE has said, “Cloud loves Tifa” or a scene that is undeniably romantic between Cloud and Tifa, all you have is Cloud and Tifa expressing mutual feelings, which we all know does not have to lead to a relationship. And with the reasons I listed above, it is obvious that Cloud and Tifa did not move from friends to lovers.

Again, what the hell do you think was going on in the scene where Tifa asks Cloud if he loves her. Do you often wander into your platonic friends' bedrooms, ask them if they love you and then stay there fr the rest of the night?

Some say that because the caption under Cloud and Aerith’s date doesn’t directly mention Aerith by name, it somehow invalidates Cloud and Aerith’s presence on the FTOIL page. However, the Cloud x Aerith date *IS* canon.

Some would argue that it isn't.

The caption under Cloud and Aerith’s was there to represent *ALL* the dates on the FTOIL page because *ALL* the dates are romantic (ie: because they are *DATES*). However, SE pictured Cloud and Aerith’s date because it is the *canon* date, and because we are meant to apply the FTOIL page directly to their canon date. The reason we only see the HA Highwind scene on the FTOIL page is because it would have been inappropriate to discuss or include the LA Highwind scene on a page titled “For The One I Love”.

That is so unspeakably baised I can't even.

But if you could get different characters for the HA Highwind scene like you can for the date, that would have also been included on the FTOIL page.

The only reason HA is relevant is because with Tifa Cloud's feeling toward her were mutual. No reason to believe this of any of the other characters.

There is just as much evidence to support Cloud x Aerith as there is to support Cloud x Tifa. Period.

And since you stated earlier that you feel it is obvious Cloud and Tifa remained friends given the evidence, you must then also feel the same way abut Cloud and Aerith. But you clearly do not.

1. "Cloud was her friend, her *koibito* (lover in Japanese) - a symbol of what was important to her, and someone to be protected." ~Case of Lifestream: White, Square Enix

Which doesn't tell us anything about Cloud's feelings toward her.

3. The Cloud x Aerith Golden Saucer date is confirmed as canon within the compilation:

A: "#111: The Planet's largest amusement park is run by Dio. Cloud and company visit this place many times in their battle. They meet Cait Sith here. A PROMISED date [there is only one promised date in the game] that ends in a magical night. In the city of desire that floats above the sands, the light memory of the two people is asleep even now…Aerith: "I think I must have seen him again, in you… But you're different. Things are different… No, Cloud… I'm searching for you…" ~Final Fantasy Art Collection

It's an art collection. Not a summation of canonical events collection. Just like a sum-up of romantic scenes include the HA scene, doesn't mean in neccesarily happened.

4. "Each carries their own feelings and love for Aerith. In this story, Cloud also carries his undying feeling for Aerith even to this very day…" ~Nomura, Square Enix

When *undying* is applied to a feeling or emotion that someone has, it is eternal and forever. So although you can make the argument that *undying* when applied to a fictional creature doesn't mean eternal and forever, when the word "eternal" is applied to a human emotion or feeling, it *IS* eternal and forever. Therefore, it does not make sense that Nomura would be referring to Cloud's guilt as *undying* when the entire point of the movie is to rid Cloud of his guilt.

You really think if asked Cloud would say he no longer feels guilt about causing Aerith's death. AC was not about ridding him of his guilt, it was dealing with it. Reno expressed feeling of guilt about being part of the entity that nearly destroyed the world ut it didn't stop him from trying to save the kids like it did Cloud.

5. "There's no relationship from FFVII to the Kingdom Hearts stories. I consider them separate stories. But if you play Kingdom Hearts, toward the end, some of the questions about the relationship between Cloud and Aeris in Final Fantasy VII might be answered." ~Nomura, Square Enix

Nomura specifically says that although the two universes of Kingdom Hearts and FFVII are separate, the Kingdom Hearts universe might help answer questions about the relationship between Cloud and Aerith as it pertains to Final Fantasy VII's universe. Cloud and Aerith are seen together at the end of Kingdom Hearts similar to other romantic couples.

We haven't seen the end of Kingdom Hearts. We see Cloud and Sephiroth disappear, Tifa go find him and Aerith have nothing to do with the situation whatsoever.

7. "Looks good. You are perfect for each other!" "Aerith's star and Cloud's star! They show a great future!" — "Poor Tifa!"~Cait Sith, Final Fantasy VII

Cait Sith was wrong, Aerith dying, basically at Cloud's hands is not a great future.

"After solving the puzzle about Cait Sith's replaceable body, he tells one last fortune of Cloud and Aerith's affinity. Cait Sith's lines, which seem to expect Cloud and Aerith's wedding, now makes it more painful." ~Final Fantasy VII Dismantled, Square Enix

The argument about Cait Sith's prediction should not revolve around how reliable he is. The argument should be about what was SE's intent for including this wedding prediction in the game. SE could have had Aerith ask Cait Sith about her future and Cait Sith could have said, "You will have a bright future full of many happy times!" — this would have set the player up to get their heart broken when she was killed by Sephiroth. Instead, they specifically decided to include a prediction about Aerith's romantic future with Cloud. It was a romantic prediction about her future with Cloud, not just a generic prediction about her future. So given the context of the game and how things were progressing between Cloud and Aerith, it is obvious why SE included this wedding prediction — so the gamer would have the idea in their head that Cloud and Aerith had the possibility of sharing a romantic future together, which would then be destroyed by the hands of the evil Sephiroth. A generic prediction about Aerith's future would not have been nearly as meaningful or impactful to the gamer, which is why they specifically made the prediction about Aerith's romantic future with Cloud. The romance that was clearly developing between Cloud and Aerith, in addition to a prediction about a their romantic future together, makes her death all the more sad. SE killed off a romantic love interest to Cloud because it would be more impactful to the gamer. If SE had killed Barret, I can guarantee you that it would not have been as memorable or as impactful to the gamer. One of the biggest reasons Aerith's death is so sad is because she wasn't just a friend to Cloud. Aerith had a possible romantic future with Cloud, which is exactly what SE wanted us to think, so that when they killed her, it was that much more painful and heartbreaking for those of us playing the game. Luckily, their love transcends traditional barriers and continues in the spiritual world. Furthermore, SE refers to this prediction as a wedding prediction. Why would they refer to it as a wedding prediction if it was not meant to highlight the romantic connection Cloud and Aerith have in the game?

A possible romantic future yes. That's as far as it goes, Aerith is dead and like it or not that IS an obstacle. Aerith's love for Cloud may continue in the spiritual world but Cloud lives in the physical world.

8. "You should have… An older girlfriend, one that would take care of you. I think that would be the perfect type for you." ~Mrs. Strife (Cloud's Mom)

I'm looking at this quote from SE's intent. Obviously Cloud's Mom saying this means nothing. But what was SE's intent for including this? Why would they choose for Cloud to have this flashback while he was sleeping in Aerith's house? Just to provide some context: Cloud had just met Aerith. He agreed to be her bodyguard for the price of one date. He had just spent time laughing with her. Protecting her. Then while Cloud is sleeping in her house, SE decides to throw in this flashback where Cloud's Mother talks about girlfriends and dating someone older. Then right after this flashback is over, you see Cloud in his room and Aerith in her room. Clearly this was meant to set these two up as romantic love interests.

Yeah, it's called a tease. It hardly transcends the much bigger plot point that Aerith dies making this impossible to happen.

9. "Marlene is a sharp girl - Even though she's only 4 years old, Marlene is perceptive and well attuned to the woman mind. The scene where she ascertains that Aerith has favor for Cloud and tells him so, then says "I won't tell Tifa!" demonstrates this grownup behavior." ~Final Fantasy VII, 25th Anniversary Ultimania

Therefore, this is the canon version of this scene:

Marlene: "Guess what? Guess what? Aeris was asking me lots of questions. Like what kind of person Cloud is. I bet she likes you, Cloud!"

Cloud: "Let's hope so."

Marlene: "I won't tell Tifa."

Therefore nothing. This is the same Ultimania that depicts scenes from LA, CC, and FFVII that contradict each other. Only one of those courses of events could have happened but that does not make only one of them permissable in Ultimania. If it happened in the Compilation, then it can be depicted. What you have is a scene that tells us something about Marlene's relationship with both Cloud and Aerith, tht what it ws chosen for, doesn't mean SE is in the business of retracting dialogue options from the player.

12. "It was the sound of Cloud's heart cracking. It was the cry of his heart that could never be healed of the grief he had towards Aerith's death, the blame towards himself and the hatred he had for Sephiroth…There was nothing she could do about Cloud's suffering and the pain ached in her heart." ~Maiden of the Planet, Square Enix

Yeah that's right: THERE IS NOTHING SHE CAN DO.

13. Final Fantasy Dissidia: At the end of Dissidia, Cloud is seen entering a flower field. This flower field is eerily similar to the flower fields Aerith has appeared in, and the flower field shown during the ending credits of Advent Children. Cloud is also holding Aerith's Holy materia. Before this takes place, it is stated by Zidane that each character is, "…returning to where we're supposed to be." Cloud is supposed to be with Aerith, which is why he returns to a flower field. Interestingly, Squall of Final Fantasy VIII is seen leaving when a white feather falls from the sky. This feather represents Rinoa. The parallels between Cloud x Aerith and Squall x Rinoa are obvious. During the game Cloud also says, "The one I really want to meet is…" And although he doesn't finish his sentence, given the ending scene of Dissidia and the ending of Final Fantasy VII, it is clear who Cloud has a desire to meet in the Promised Land.

It's FAR too big to possibly be Aerith's Holy Materia. And uh, WHY are the paralells obvious? Zidane, Tidus and Cecil's relationships are far more clearly established, they get nothing of the sort. Squall alone does not represent a trend Cloud has to follow.

 

[Danseru-kun]

Has anyone posted the Nomua statement where he said "I have no clue" between Cloud and Tifa's relationship? I mean it can also mean he doesn't give a f***

And gosh a 2005 interview ERASING ALL CLOTI EVIDENCE for the following years how convenient!

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Oh God not this argument again. I swear to God, if I hear the word "interpretation" one more time...

Hey, guys, I just played Dragon Quest V: The Heavenly Bride! I totally had the Hero marry Flora instead of his annoying childhood friend, Bianca, and that's totally what happened -- 'cause that's how I played the game and that's MY interpretation!

Now, nobody talk to me about how the Hero's kids are blond like Bianca in all their official artwork or how Bianca's in a wedding dress in another piece of official art (in which the kids are also blond) or how she has the title of "Heavenly Bride" in Monster Battle Road II while Flora is "The Noble Maiden" and Debora is just "The Third Woman."

Yuji Horii has never sat down for an interview in which he said "The Hero marries Bianca," so my interpretation is just as valid as any other and stands on just as solid ground as the notion that he married that blond bitch.

I’d argue that Cloud and Tifa did not move into a romantic relationship after the HAHW scene because of these reasons:

I see your debate style of ignoring the things people say and then copy-pasting a wall of text you hope they'll get distracted with (bait which Minato took, bless him) is still going strong.

Don't ever change, Blanky. Please don't ever change.

 

[BlankBeat]

Marlene wasn't with them after the HAHW scene. After the end of the game, Cloud nd Tif stayed together even after everyone including Barret went their own way, it was most certainly nor Marlene's decision t invite Cloud anywhere.

Huh?

So? how exactly would Marlene and Barret have formed a family for Cloti-romance related reasons to your satisfaction exactly?

Huh?

I do, I assume you don't if you compare either Tifa or Cloud's treatment of each other to Cid's treatment of Shera.

Huh?

If their relationship died, then why ask? Why was she in Cloud's bedroom in the dead of night anyway? And then stay till the break of dawn waiting for an answer?

Because Tifa probably thought there was going to be a romantic relationship between them after the HAHW scene, but soon realized that there was nothing between them. Nojima speaks of a premise that things don't go well between Cloud and Tifa after the HAHW scene.

The (obvious) reason Tifa asked Cloud if he loved her is because the way Cloud was acting signaled that he didn't love her. This means that a romantic relationship does not necessarily exist after the HAHW scene. If Tifa doesn't know if Cloud loves her, why are you so sure?

Then, Tifa get's jealous of Cloud visiting Aerith's Church (SE talks about this in the same passage where Tifa is said to get jealous over the world Cloud and Aerith were forming together in FFVII).

Oh and...

"For example, I was frequently asked if there had been romantic relationship between Tifa and Cloud for two years, after FF7 ended, but I don't have any clue." ~Nomura, Dorimaga interview, published at Flaregamer

The average husband hs more comfortable floors they can sleep on in any given room of their house then that thing, what's your point?

Irrelevant statement. Cloud has a bed in his personal room. How uncomfortable it looks or the lack of other furniture in the room is irrelevant.

The fact that SE put a bed in Cloud's personal room suggests that Cloud and Tifa are not in a romantic relationship. When you combine this with the fact that Tifa doesn't know if Cloud loves her after the HAHW scene AND Nomura's statement about not knowing if they are in a romantic relationship after FFVII ends, well...the Cloti ship sinks faster than a rock.

Oh and Cloud and Tifa are referred to as "childhood friends" *only* in the Advent Children relationship chart and they NEVER have mutual favor arrows (even in charts that were released after Advent Children).

WHY DOES THIS MATTER?! How does Barret's presence make Tifa and Cloud not a couple? What is he doing in your eyes to make this happen?

Many Cloti's like to make it seem as though Cloud and Tifa formed a family without Barret, which would imply that Cloud and Tifa are similar to that of a married couple. Some Cloti's also try to make it seem as though Cloud and Tifa created a family from a romantic place. Both of these things couldn't be further from the truth.

The bottom line is, many Cloti's try to use this family to prove that their ship is canon. But the cold hard facts are that this family has nothing, what-so-ever, to do with Cloud and Tifa's (possible) romantic relationship.

I'd argue that he didn't. Given that we read about what he does after the end of FFVII and that's not what he does.

1. Final Fantasy VII: After Cloud and Aerith share a spiritual connection, Cloud says in the final moments of the game, "An answer from the Planet… the Promised Land… I think I can meet her… there."

Cloud wants to reunite with Aerith in the Promised Land.

2. The hand reach scene between Cloud and Aerith in Advent Children is referred to as a "homage" by SE, which highlights the romantic relationship between Cloud and Aerith that has continued into the spiritual world.

"The ending scene of the battle with Bahamut, the scene where Aerith reaches out her hand, is homage to the last scene from a previous production. It was Tetsuya (Nomura)'s idea…." ~Nojima, Reunion Files

3. Final Fantasy VII Advent Children: During the ending credits, Cloud is shown riding his motorcycle through numerous flower fields. Although Cloud is a delivery boy, he is shown riding his motorcycle through flower fields.

Nomura said in the Reunion Files that, "…we filmed the video for the ending credits in Hawaii. There are fields of flowers on both sides of the road, and the colors - yellow and white - are the same as the flowers in Aerith's church."

In addition, Nomura states, "With Aerith, 'flowers' have been her image throughout the series."

4. Cloud visits Aerith's Church. Aerith's Church is stated to be Cloud's, Promised Land:

"The place where he awakens. That is Cloud's Promised Land……" ~Final Fantasy VII 10th Anniversary Ultimania, Square Enix

Cloud says he wants to find Aerith in the Promised Land at the end of FFVII.

Then, during AC, Cloud realizes that Aerith will always be with him, so his Promised Land is wherever Aerith is — which is why it says Cloud's Promised Land is the place where he awakens (ie: the place where he sees Aerith)

And the reason I connect this quote more to Aerith is because of Cloud's line at the end of FFVII where he says he thinks he can meet Aerith in the Promised Land.

Some would argue that it isn't.

Lol...okay...

1. "#111: The Planet's largest amusement park is run by Dio. Cloud and company visit this place many times in their battle. They meet Cait Sith here. A PROMISED date [there is only one promised date in the game] that ends in a magical night. In the city of desire that floats above the sands, the light memory of the two people is asleep even now…Aerith: "I think I must have seen him again, in you… But you're different. Things are different… No, Cloud… I'm searching for you…" ~Final Fantasy Art Collection

2. "In Aerith's case, if you play the game normally,the partner that generally comes will be Aerith." ~Final Fantasy VII Dismantled

3. "Oh, Cloud…I enjoyed our date at the Gold Saucer. The view from the gondola that night was really beautiful. I'll never forget it. I'll never forget you, Cloud…" ~Aerith, Final Fantasy VII Dismantled, Square Enix

That is so unspeakably baised I can't even.

How?

The reason we only see the HA Highwind scene on the FTOIL page is because it would have been inappropriate to discuss or include the LA Highwind scene on a page titled "For The One I Love". But if you could get different characters for the HA Highwind scene like you can for the date, that would have also been included on the FTOIL page. SE lists a reference page above Cloud and Tifa's image on the FTOIL page so readers can find out that the HA version is not the *only* version, the HA version is simply the only appropriate version of the Highwind scene to include on the FTOIL page. Since Cloud is pictured with both of his love interests in two canon scenes of romance on a page titled, "For The One I Love," Cloud can love either Aerith or Tifa. In other words, all the other love triangles have been solved *EXCEPT* for Final Fantasy VII because Cloud Strife is the only hero involved in a love triangle pictured with *BOTH* of his romantic love interests.

Some say that because the caption under Cloud and Aerith's date doesn't directly mention Aerith by name, it somehow invalidates Cloud and Aerith's presence on the FTOIL page. However, the Cloud x Aerith date *IS* canon. Therefore, the caption is irrelevant. The caption under Cloud and Aerith's was there to represent *ALL* the dates on the FTOIL page because *ALL* the dates are romantic (ie: because they are *DATES*). However, SE pictured Cloud and Aerith's date because it is the *canon* date, and because we are meant to apply the FTOIL page directly to their canon date.

Of the love triangles on SE's "For The One I Love Page" (FTOIL), Cloud Strife is the only hero involved in a love triangle pictured with both of his romantic love interests in two canon scenes of romance (see the first row of images). Since Cloud is pictured with both Aerith and Tifa on a page discussing romantic love, the FFVII love triangle is the only unsolved Final Fantasy love triangle.

The only reason HA is relevant is because with Tifa Cloud's feeling toward her were mutual. No reason to believe this of any of the other characters.

Expressing mutual feelings =/= romantic relationship. I've already told you why above.

Which doesn't tell us anything about Cloud's feelings toward her.

Cloud went on two dates with Aerith and told Marlene he hopes Aerith likes him. Cloud is also stated by SE to be Aerith's "koibito", and they made Cloud and Aerith Emperor and Empress. In addition, SE gave Cloud and Aerith a romantic cameo in FFIX. It is also stated that Cloud "wavers" between two heroines, and SE provides Cloud and Aerith with a wedding prediction in the game.

Cait Sith was wrong, Aerith dying, basically at Cloud's hands is not a great future.

Cait Sith's prediction should not revolve around how accurate he is. I've already explained my reasoning here:

The argument about Cait Sith's prediction should not revolve around how reliable he is. The argument should be about what was SE's intent for including this wedding prediction in the game. SE could have had Aerith ask Cait Sith about her future and Cait Sith could have said, "You will have a bright future full of many happy times!" — this would have set the player up to get their heart broken when she was killed by Sephiroth. Instead, they specifically decided to include a prediction about Aerith's romantic future with Cloud. It was a romantic prediction about her future with Cloud, not just a generic prediction about her future. So given the context of the game and how things were progressing between Cloud and Aerith, it is obvious why SE included this wedding prediction — so the gamer would have the idea in their head that Cloud and Aerith had the possibility of sharing a romantic future together, which would then be destroyed by the hands of the evil Sephiroth. A generic prediction about Aerith's future would not have been nearly as meaningful or impactful to the gamer, which is why they specifically made the prediction about Aerith's romantic future with Cloud. The romance that was clearly developing between Cloud and Aerith, in addition to a prediction about a their romantic future together, makes her death all the more sad. SE killed off a romantic love interest to Cloud because it would be more impactful to the gamer. If SE had killed Barret, I can guarantee you that it would not have been as memorable or as impactful to the gamer. One of the biggest reasons Aerith's death is so sad is because she wasn't just a friend to Cloud. Aerith had a possible romantic future with Cloud, which is exactly what SE wanted us to think, so that when they killed her, it was that much more painful and heartbreaking for those of us playing the game. Luckily, their love transcends traditional barriers and continues in the spiritual world. Furthermore, SE refers to this prediction as a wedding prediction. Why would they refer to it as a wedding prediction if it was not meant to highlight the romantic connection Cloud and Aerith have in the game?

SE obviously included this prediction to set Cloud and Aerith up as a romantic couple and to highlight their romantic relationship. The proof is that SE refers to Cait Sith's prediction as a "WEDDING PREDICTION".

A possible romantic future yes. That's as far as it goes, Aerith is dead and like it or not that IS an obstacle. Aerith's love for Cloud may continue in the spiritual world but Cloud lives in the physical world.

Love beyond death is a common theme in Final Fantasy (Tidus x Yuna, Shuyin x Lenne, Laguna x Raine, Ashe x Rasler, etc.) Plus, in Final Fantasy VII, you have Vincent's bond with Lucrecia. Vincent can see her and speak with her in DoC, similar to the way Cloud can interact with Aerith in AC/ACC.

 

[Dashell]

SE obviously included this prediction to set Cloud and Aerith up as a romantic couple and to highlight their romantic relationship. The proof is that SE refers to Cait Sith's prediction as a "WEDDING PREDICTION".

I thought it was a wedding prediction cause he said they were going to get married but... okay..


I'm so not helping

 

[BlankBeat]

I thought it was a wedding prediction cause he said they were going to get married but... okay..


I'm so not helping

He does?
Did I seriously miss something?

I thought Cait Sith only said this:
"Looks good. You are perfect for each other!" "Aerith's star and Cloud's star! They show a great future!" — "Poor Tifa!"~Cait Sith, Final Fantasy VII

But that SE was the one actually called it a "wedding prediction" in Dismantled:
"After solving the puzzle about Cait Sith's replaceable body, he tells one last fortune of Cloud and Aerith's affinity. Cait Sith's lines, which seem to expect Cloud and Aerith's wedding, now makes it more painful." ~Final Fantasy VII Dismantled, Square Enix

Regardless, the fact that SE included this prediction in the game and calls it a wedding prediction highlights and supports the romantic relationship that I believe exists between Cloud and Aerith.

Remember, this prediction did not happen in vacuum. It happened after two dates and Cloud telling Marlene he hoped Aerith liked him.

This prediction also came after Cloud had a "mysterious" feeling after meeting Aerith, and after he thought Aerith's eyes were "impressive". Cloud also believes that if Aerith's smile costs only one gil, that it is a "good purchase".

Let's also not forget FFIX, the hero wavers quote, the Emperor and Empress dedication, and Tifa's jealousy over her "love rival". Oh, and the "koibito" quote.

 

[Ryushikaze]

You do know the dumbass cat tells Aerith to "Invite me to the wedding" right?


Holy fuck, if we're going back to Cait Sith being RELIABLE when he's explicitly stated otherwise, I'm going back to calling people dumbasses for using him as evidence of romantic intent of ANOTHER PERSON ENTIRELY.

Oh, and you know WHY Cloud and Tifa moving in together is evidence of romance? Because the reason the moved in together is related to the romantic feelings they shared for each other underneath the fucking stars. It's because they formed a family together. She is an important woman to him. They have a future together. She has the role of someone's beloved. They are viewed as parents by the child they adopted together.

It's an indication of romance because in the world of fiction, one must actually take steps to establish that a man and woman cohabitating with no other adults- especially a man and woman raising kids- are NOT romantically involved. One needs to be rather explicit. SE has done the opposite, saying they have a shared future, come to understand each other, opened their hearts to each other, that Tifa wears the motherfucking pants in their motherfucking relationship.

BB, Not gonna lie, I'm not going to read your copy paste bullshit.

Write original replies or don't even bother.

 

[Dashell]

He does?
Did I seriously miss something?

Okay I meant this:

You do know the dumbass cat tells Aerith to "Invite me to the wedding" right?

I remember him saying SOMETHING about a wedding.

Let's also not forget FFIX, the hero wavers quote, the Emperor and Empress dedication, and Tifa's jealousy over her "love rival". Oh, and the "koibito" quote.

I'd rather forget koibito all together personally... and I wasn't even involved with half of that shit storm

 

[BlankBeat]

You do know the dumbass cat tells Aerith to "Invite me to the wedding" right?

I totally didn't know that! The last time I did a full play-through was years ago. But thanks for providing me with even more proof in favor of my ship!! Thanks, Ryu!

Holy fuck, if we're going back to Cait Sith being RELIABLE when he's explicitly stated otherwise, I'm going back to calling people dumbasses for using him as evidence of romantic intent of ANOTHER PERSON ENTIRELY.

Who said he is reliable?

I specifically said that I'm not arguing about how reliable his prediction is. I'm arguing about why SE decided to include a wedding prediction about Cloud and Aerith in the game.

Because the reason the moved in together is related to the romantic feelings they shared for each other underneath the fucking stars.

You have absolutely no proof of this.

It's because they formed a family together.

With Barret and Marlene.

Seventh Heaven has always been home-base for those who lived/met in Midgar. Seems only natural that those who met and lived in Midgar would return to Midgar and co-habit/live together.

She is an important woman to him.

So is Aerith. How is being an important woman proof of a romantic relationship?

They have a future together.

The future they have is not stated to be romantic.

What after the HAHW scene is proof of a romantic relationship between Cloud and Tifa?

She has the role of someone's beloved.

Cloud and Aerith have a koibito quote, too.

They are viewed as parents by the child they adopted together.

So....? All that proves is how Denzel feels towards them. It tell us nothing about Cloud and Tifa's relationship, nor how they feel towards each other.

It's an indication of romance because in the world of fiction, one must actually take steps to establish that a man and woman cohabitating with no other adults- especially a man and woman raising kids- are NOT romantically involved. One needs to be rather explicit. SE has done the opposite, saying they have a shared future, come to understand each other, opened their hearts to each other, that Tifa wears the motherfucking pants in their motherfucking relationship.

Yet SE decided to have Tifa ask if Cloud loved her. This implies Cloud and Tifa may not be in a romantic relationship after the HAHW scene if Cloud doesn't love her. If Tifa doesn't know, how do you know? There obviously must be a reason why SE decided to have Tifa ask if Cloud loved her (and her insecurity issues are not the only reason). Nojima speaks of a premise that things won't go well between Cloud and Tifa, which is probably why Tifa wonders if Cloud loves her.

Yet SE decided to show a bed in Cloud's separate room.

Yet SE decided to tell us Tifa was irritated about Cloud visiting Aerith's Church in a passage about her jealousy towards her "love rival".

Yet Nomura said, "For example, I was frequently asked if there had been romantic relationship between Tifa and Cloud for two years, after FF7 ended, but I don't have any clue." ~Nomura, Dorimaga interview, published at Flaregamer

Yet SE decided to call Cloud and Tifa, "childhood friends" in both the FFVII and Advent Children relationship charts, even though they provided different descriptions for Cloud and Aerith in both charts. If Cloud and Tifa's relationship changed from FFVII to AC, why were they given the same description for both charts? Why wasn't their description changed like Cloud and Aerith's were? In addition, Cloud and Tifa NEVER have mutual favor arrows in any relationship chart.

You have ZERO evidence that Cloud and Tifa are in a romantic relationship after the HAHW scene. Living together =/= romantic relationship (Cid and Shera lived together. Were they in a romantic relationship?)

Seventh Heaven is home base for those that met in Midgar. Tifa, Barret, Marlene, and Cloud formed a family together in a place where Cloud has a separate room and his own bed. To assume that Cloud and Tifa are in a romantic relationship is a huge assumption on your part and flies the face of Nojima's premise that things won't go well between them and Nomura's quote about not knowing the status of their relationship.

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

How do you talk so much and yet say so little? Its like a mystical art or something.