The Love Triangle Debate thread of KNEEL BEFORE ZOD OR SUFFER HIS WRATH (ignore the opening posts at your peril) (Round 6)

[Dashell]

But Cloud didn't just go with Tifa. He went with Tifa, Barret, and Marlene.

But Tifa is the one who constantly is singled out and it was their feelings under the Highwind that lead them to be together. With or without Barret you can't deny this. Put Barret in the family all you want, but answer me this. If Clouds feelings for Tifa are that of friendship and nothing more, why is Tifa always singled out?

Everything else you said has been answered so I'm not going to bother. Hell we just talked about the phone call thing.

I don't deny that Cloud and Tifa's relationship is different than Cloud and Barret's relationship.

Then why do you keep pointing out that Cloud and Tifa also moved in with Barret?

If Nomura isn't sure that they are in a relationship, and if Tifa doesn't know if Cloud loves her, how can you be so sure that they are in a relationship?

How can you be sure they're not? If they weren't, wouldn't she know that? Wouldn't HE know that?

 

[Danseru-kun]

^

Quex, this quote seems to prove Tifa doesn't know Cloud

Apart from being Cloud’s childhood friend, she is also the woman who understands him all too well and devotedly supports the mentally-weak side of him. FFVII 10thAnniversary Ultimania Tifa Lockhart Character Profile p 42-47

So yeah

 

[Dashell]

That still doesn't answer my question D:


or wait maybe it does

 

[BlankBeat]

But Tifa is the one who constantly is singled out and it was their feelings under the Highwind that lead them to be together.

You have yet to provide any sort of evidence that Cloud and Tifa are together after the HAHW scene. What evidence do you have?

The evidence that I have to show that they are *NOT* in a relationship is:
--Nomura states he has no idea if Cloud and Tifa are in a relationship
--Cloud has a bed in his room
--Tifa doesn't know if Cloud loves her
--Nojima speaks of a premise that things won't go well between Cloud and Tifa
--Cloud ignore months and months of Tifa's phone calls
--Tifa is jealous over Cloud visiting Aerith's Church

With or without Barret you can't deny this. Put Barret in the family all you want, but answer me this. If Clouds feelings for Tifa are that of friendship and nothing more, why is Tifa always singled out?

I don't deny that Cloud and Tifa expressed mutual feelings in the HAHW scene. What I deny is that any sort of relationship began after it.

The most common reason Cloti's use to prove that Cloud and Tifa are in a relationship after the HAHW scene is that, "Cloud and Tifa live together and formed a family together!"

But we all know that this family was formed with Barret and Marlene. We also know that the quotes that talk about Cloud, Tifa, Marlene, and Denzel living together only exclude Barret because he is off doing missions. Therefore, this "family" is not proof of a romantic relationship between Cloud and Tifa.

As for living under the same roof, well, we all know that Cloud is shown to have a bed in his room. And we all know Seventh Heaven has ALWAYS been home-base for AVALANCE in Midgar. Why would living at Seventh Heaven be evidence that a romantic relationship exists between Cloud and Tifa?

 

[Dashell]

You have yet to provide any sort of evidence that Cloud and Tifa are together after the HAHW scene. What evidence do you have?

Do you mean romantically here? Cause they do live together o.o


Anyways that was a real question I wanted you to answer. Why is Tifa always singled out? Please answer this...


as for the family... yeah Barret's in it, sure, go Barret go. Please answer my question. I seriously want your opinion on this

 

[Splintered]

Obviously Tifa's reaction to Cloud visiting Aerith's Church is meant to suggest that Cloud visiting Aerith's Church has romantic undertones, especially when you consider the context of the passage.

I guess this is where we disagree, because I didn't see it as an undying love, I saw it as a damaging mental trigger that spiraled into guilt and suffering. I think that possible romantic tinglings made it even more complicated, but I don't think Tifa ever considered to be a romantic rondevu.

I guess I should reiterate this, I have no problems with thinking that Cloud had romantic feelings for Aerith, or at least interest that was beginning to be romantic. I actually can see the appeal. I know other Clotis here will disagree, but I never saw this as a downside to the Cloud/Tifa story. Sometimes it feels like I argue this way, but that's because I think the idea that C/A has a better, stronger relationship than C/T that Cloud prioritizes is bullshit. But it doesn't mean there aren't foundations to the C/A, but it exists where Cloud is growing in his relationship with Tifa.

And lets go back to the "complicated" description. Why complicated, because Tifa's jealousy isn't particularly "complicated." They never had a problem with calling it jealousy before.

Because it's not jealousy. Or if it is, it's very minute, the idea that Cloud would rather mourn Aerith than live with Tifa- I suppose it's natural to feel that kind of. But here's the deal, he wouldn't rather just mourn Aerith than live with Tifa, but it's easy to see how a girl like Tifa would think that. It's a whole mess of guilt, fear, and insecurity bottled in there.

But if it was just jealousy, why is Tifa's "solution" not to not visit the church but to go there together. It makes no sense. Not unless that Tifa found the real issues with Cloud visiting the church not about Cloud visiting the church, but him doing it alone and shouldering his issues by himself. Why does she not say "she didn't send Denzel" but rather "she sent Denzel to us." Why does she smile in the rain and thank Aerith for always being there. Because it was about more than jealousy.

To me, Tifa is insecure because of the communication problems between her and Cloud.

Well yeah there's always that. Tifa tends to bottle things up and Cloud tends to run away when bad things happen. But this only proves to me that Tifa will always overcome her insecurities. Because as much as there are issues with Cloud and Tifa's issues communicating, they will always overcome it.

C/T's theme of communicating is not about one of failure, but one of success. It's always difficult them just because of who they are, but they always manage to get together, have a sometimes hard but heartfelt talk, and they always get through it. And many times are better people for it.

And just as they communicated to each other in the movie, with Tifa really breaking it down for Cloud, and Cloud telling her that burden has lifted, her question is probably answered as well. Just never directly, only through subtle hints.

"...there's the premise that things won't go well between Tifa and Cloud, and that even without Geostigma or Sephiroth, this might be the same."

And they did have problems before Geostigma. But you know what, they were actually overcoming it. Tifa mentions that their routine had gone to being happy, that they were getting together again. Things are going so well that Tifa asked Cloud if whatever was burdening him was gone.

Of course, Geostigma and Sephiroth happened. That made it all the worst.

But what happened then? They made it. They made it through Survivor's guilt, PTSD, Armageddon, insecurities, escaping responsibilities, fatal diseases, death, suffering children. They overcame it all. Granted, it wasn't just Tifa that helped him through, it was everyone and everything good in his life. Christ, if they didn't like each other, they wouldn't have survived half of these.

But they're happy together. This isn't interpretation, multiple times it has been said that Cloud is happy with his family. And his relationship with Tifa, the one that always had romantic foundations and practically bleeds with romantic tension, is a huge part of it.

EDIT: Holy shit it's almost fucking 3AM wat am i doing

 

[BlankBeat]

Do you mean romantically here? Cause they do live together o.o

--Living together at Seventh Heaven (when that has always been home-base for AVALANCHE in Midgar) does not prove Cloud and Tifa are in a romantic relationship.

--Cloud, Tifa, *AND* Barret decided that they would reside there.

--Cloud has a separate bed in his own room at Seventh Heaven.

--Nomura doesn't know if Cloud and Tifa are in a relationship after FFVII ends

--Nojima speaks of a premise that things won't go well between Cloud and Tifa

--Cloud leaves Seventh Heaven and visits Aerith's Church before his diagnosis

--Cloud ignores months of Tifa's phone calls

--Tifa is jealous of Cloud visiting Aerith's Church and the connection/bond they have

EDIT: --Tifa doesn't know if Cloud loves her

Anyways that was a real question I wanted you to answer. Why is Tifa always singled out? Please answer this...


as for the family... yeah Barret's in it, sure, go Barret go. Please answer my question. I seriously want your opinion on this

Why is Tifa singled out in the quotes about the Highwind scene? Well, because they *DO* express mutual feelings in the HAHW scene. But when looking at the evidence I listed above, expressing mutual feelings does not necessarily lead to a romantic relationship.

And if you are talking about Tifa being singled out in the quotes regarding them living together, well, it is because Barret is off doing missions:

“After visiting various locations with Tifa and Barret, Tifa opened the “Seventh Heaven” bar. Before setting off on a journey, Barret left Marlene in Cloud and Tifa’s care, and the three of them began living together.” ~CoT

It says that the “three of them [Cloud, Tifa, Marlene]” began *living* together *AFTER* Barret set off on a “journey”. This unequivocally proves that when the words “live”/”living”/”lived” are used to describe Cloud, Tifa, Marlene, and Denzel, it is *ONLY* excluding Barret because Barret is not *TECHNICALLY* “living” with them.

These quotes could have just as easily said Cloud is happy living with Tifa, Barret, and the kids. It just so happens that Barret is off doing missions, but Barret *DOES* come back to protect his "FAMILY" (ie: Cloud, Denzel, Marlene, and Tifa). Barret also tells Marlene to take care of the family while he is gone, and Marlene invites Cloud into her family.

 

[Dashell]

--Living together at Seventh Heaven (when that has always been home-base for AVALANCHE in Midgar) does not prove Cloud and Tifa are in a romantic relationship.

--Cloud, Tifa, *AND* Barret decided that they would reside there.

--Cloud has a separate bed in his own room at Seventh Heaven.

--Nomura doesn't know if Cloud and Tifa are in a relationship after FFVII ends

--Nojima speaks of a premise that things won't go well between Cloud and Tifa

--Cloud leaves Seventh Heaven and visits Aerith's Church before his diagnosis

--Cloud ignores months of Tifa's phone calls

--Tifa is jealous of Cloud visiting Aerith's Church and the connection/bond they have

Okay good, I understand you think these disprove Cloti and ... fine or something, but that's not what I wanted to hear from you.

Why is Tifa singled out in the quotes about the Highwind scene?

I mean these ones (I'm looking these up through google BTW, so sorry if they're wrong):

“With the support of former allies and Tifa, an important woman to him and now also part of his family, Cloud regains the courage to move forward.”

The present Tifa isn't just Cloud's childhood friend, but also the mother of the 'family' they were forming in Edge

guys...what are some other ones? I know there's more than those two where it says something like "Tifa and the kids" or "Tifa and his friends" or something... or am I wrong?

Danseru? Tres? Ryu?...

I suck at this

 

[Danseru-kun]

^ You mean family quotes? We'll I'll just copy paste things:

Still bearing the pain from her past, she lived together with Cloud, Marlene and Denzel, a boy who had sought shelter at the slum’s Church.
FFVII 10th Anniversary Ultimania Tifa Lockhart Character Profile p 42-47

Cloud brought Denzel back from the slum’s church and from then, it became the four of them living together.
FFVII 10th Anniversary Ultimania Tifa Lockhart Character Profile p 42-47

Cloud brings Denzel back from the slum’s church and Denzel joins Cloud’s family. FFVII 10th Anniversary Complete Timeline

Now running a delivery business while helping out Tifa with the newly opened “Seventh Heaven” bar, Cloud, Tifa, Marlene and Denzel lived together like a family. However, when Cloud contracts Geostigma he disappears. Behind these actions lies feelings of guilt towards his past failure to protect people who were important to him, but through his battle with Kadaj’s gang, the legacy of Jenova, he regains the courage to face reality.
FFVII 10th Anniversary Ultimania Cloud Strife Profile p36-41

After visiting various locations with Tifa and Barret, Tifa opened the “Seventh Heaven” bar. Before setting off on a journey, Barret left Marlene in Cloud and Tifa’s care, and the three of them began living together.
FFVII 10th Anniversary Ultimania Cloud Strife Profile p36-41

“Good for you. Whole world’s clappin’ you on the back. So Cloud’s with Tifa?”
“Yeah. Tifa opened a bar, just like the old days. Cloud was helpin’ out, but it sounds like he’s got his own business keepin’ him tied up now. A delivery service.”
“Cloud? Run a business?”
“You can bet it’s Tifa kickin’ his ass into shape.”
“I see. In the end, it’s the women wear the pants.” -Case of Barret


When he awakes, there was his friends. There were the children, freed from their fatal illness. Tifa and Marlene, and Denzel asking for Cloud to heal his Geostigma— his family were waiting. Engulfed in celebration, he realizes where he is meant to live. He realizes that he was able to forgive himself.

- (SOURCE: 10th AU, ACC Playback:

In the past you’ve always looked after me, you, Denzel and Tifa. You were there whenever I needed you. Now it’s my turn.- Cloud to Marlene in ACC

--


“A family.” (Tifa) “Yeah.” (Marlene)
Marlene cheerfully answered in response to Tifa’s murmur.
“I’ll put Cloud in our family too.” (Marlene)
“I appreciate that.” (Cloud)
After Cloud thanked Marlene’s innocent offer with his serious face, he looked at Tifa. Tifa nodded a little. Would there be various problems arising after this? However, Tifa decided that she would stop worrying about the relationship between the two of them.

---

The happier he is now,
The more Cloud is tormented by painful “memories” of the past. FFVII 10th Anniversary Ultimania Cloud Strife Profile p36-41

I don’t think I’m fit to save anyone. Not family, not friends … no one. 」

The more he realizes how happy he is living with Tifa and the children,the more the fear of losing that and regrets toward the past trouble Cloud…
FFVII 10th Anniversary Ultimania Cloud Strife Profile p36-41

---

AC Prologue: “Nojima: Cloud never had a candid personality to begin with, and although he started living with Tifa and even started working, he obtained a peaceful living he’s never experienced before, and this conversely made him anxious. And in the midst of this he contracts Geostigma himself, and rather than being able to protect the people dear to him, he instead was forced to face his own death, and so ran away.”

---
I want to see Cloud — Marlene’s honest words, which reflected what Tifa felt in her own heart, caused her to smile. The present Tifa isn’t just Cloud’s childhood friend, but also the mother of the ‘family’ they were forming in Edge.
FFVII 10th Anniversary Ultimania Tifa Lockhart Character Profile p 42-47

Inside, I felt one thing was for sure: Cloud and Tifa would be together.Everybody would be back home where they belonged. - Two years is too short to forget the past completely, but it’s still a pretty long time… And two years older was a good age for Marlene to start talking a little.” -Nojima

Here's the link of other quotes if you need them, small fonts: http://worldofcloti.tumblr.com/post/45405555997/cloud-and-tifas-relationship-as-told-by-official


http://danseru-kun.tumblr.com/post/40338671251/cloud-and-tifas-feelings-for-each-other

Actually Cloud's 10th AU profile is full of Tifa already

 

[BlankBeat]

Okay good, I understand you think these disprove Cloti and ... fine or something, but that's not what I wanted to hear from you.

I mean these ones (I'm looking these up through google BTW, so sorry if they're wrong):

guys...what are some other ones? I know there's more than those two where it says something like "Tifa and the kids" or "Tifa and his friends" or something... or am I wrong?

“With the support of former allies and Tifa, an important woman to him and now also part of his family, Cloud regains the courage to move forward.”

Yes, Tifa *IS* an important woman to Cloud and she *IS* apart of Cloud's family. However, Cloud's family also consists of Barret, Marlene, and Denzel. How does singling out Tifa's importance mean they are in a romantic relationship, though? There are multiple quotes that highlight both Tifa *AND* Aerith's importance to Cloud.

I don't see how this quote counteracts any of the evidence I provided that shows Cloud and Tifa are *NOT* in a relationship after the HAHW scene.

This is when they first discussed creating this family:

“Yeah, let’s go home” Cloud agreed.
“Where to?” Barret asked.
“Our suspended reality.”
“What the hell do you mean by that?”
“Our normal lives.”
“And where do we have something like that?”
“We’ll find one.”
Cloud looked at Tifa and said, “Right?”
“Yeah!” cried the cheerful Marlene. Tifa nodded too, but just like Barret, she wondered where they had a normal life. ~CoT

This clearly establishes that all four of them decided to create this family together.

Your second quote: "The present Tifa isn't just Cloud's childhood friend, but also the mother of the 'family' they were forming in Edge."

Yes, Tifa is the only adult female in this family. She would be considered the Mother of Marlene and Denzel. However, Barret would be considered Marlene's Father and Cloud would be considered Denzel's Father.

Therefore, this family has two Father figures and one Mother figure. This dynamic is exactly why Tifa said they weren't a "real" family in the traditional sense of the word.

All of these quotes prove this is a family of friends and includes Cloud, Barret, Tifa, Marlene, and Denzel:

1. “I’ll take care of Cloud and Tifa!”
Barret turned round and shouted, “Do your best!” His voice was a little shaky. “Unite the family’s strength and keep at it!” ~CoT

2. "Marlene who had always slept with Tifa, slept with her foster father Barret the night before he left. Their conversations could be heard late into the night. Early next morning, Barret set off." ~CoT

3. "Upon finding out that Edge was under attack during the midst of his travels, he rushed over towards the crisis faced by his family and companions." ~Barret Wallace's Character Profile

4. "Although Marlene is not his real daughter, Barret has a deep affection toward her. If possible, he would have liked to be together with her all the time, however, he could not bring her on perilous trips and their time spent living apart is actually longer. Entrusting Marlene to Elmyra's care in FFVII and Tifa's in AC, he fights hard day after day for the future of his 'daughter'."

5. “A family.” (Tifa)
“Yeah.” (Marlene)
Marlene cheerfully answered in response to Tifa’s murmur.
“I’ll put Cloud in our family too.” (Marlene)
“I appreciate that.” (Cloud) ~Revised CoT

 

[Dashell]

No I meant the ones that say like "These people and Tifa" ...

yeah here's another one:

The more he realizes how happy he is living with Tifa and the children,the more the fear of losing that and regrets toward the past trouble Cloud…

Why not just say "his family"... it seems to single Tifa out.

AC Prologue: “Nojima: Cloud never had a candid personality to begin with, and although he started living with Tifa and even started working, he obtained a peaceful livinghe’s never experienced before,

Again, Tifa is singled out.



They seem to do this a bit... so why? What is important about Tifa?


EDIT
and then I get ninjad...


No really Blankbeat, I want to know from your perspective why Tifa is singled out a lot. What makes her special? More special than Barret, Denzel and Marlene? I don't care about the family stuff, I want you to answer this question.

 

[BlankBeat]

I want to make clear that these quotes Danseru posted mean N-O-T-H-I-N-G:


1. "Still bearing the pain from her past, she lived together with Cloud, Marlene and Denzel, a boy who had sought shelter at the slum’s Church." ~FFVII 10th Anniversary Ultimania Tifa Lockhart Character Profile p 42-47

2. "Cloud brought Denzel back from the slum’s church and from then, it became the four of them living together" ~FFVII 10th Anniversary Ultimania Tifa Lockhart Character Profile p 42-47

3. "Now running a delivery business while helping out Tifa with the newly opened “Seventh Heaven” bar, Cloud, Tifa, Marlene and Denzel lived together like a family. However, when Cloud contracts Geostigma he disappears. Behind these actions lies feelings of guilt towards his past failure to protect people who were important to him, but through his battle with Kadaj’s gang, the legacy of Jenova, he regains the courage to face reality." ~FFVII 10th Anniversary Ultimania Cloud Strife Profile p36-41

I highlighted the three words of importance: "live"/"living"/"lived"

Barret isn't *living* with them because he is away on missions. So why would he be included in *ANY* of the quotes that talk about them *living* together? But just because Barret doesn't *live* with them doesn't mean he isn't apart of the family.

What's *VERY* ironic is that *THIS* quote Cloti's use to exclude Barret proves my EXACT point:

"After visiting various locations with Tifa and Barret, Tifa opened the “Seventh Heaven” bar. Before setting off on a journey, Barret left Marlene in Cloud and Tifa’s care, and the three of them began living together." ~FFVII 10th Anniversary Ultimania Cloud Strife Profile

It says that the "three of them [Cloud, Tifa, Marlene]" began *living* together *AFTER* Barret set off on a "journey".

This unequivocally proves that when the words "live"/"living"/"lived" are used to describe Cloud, Tifa, Marlene, and Denzel, it is *ONLY* excluding Barret because Barret is not *TECHNICALLY* "living" with them.

 

[BlankBeat]

No I meant the ones that say like "These people and Tifa" ...

yeah here's another one:



Why not just say "his family"... it seems to single Tifa out.



Again, Tifa is singled out.



They seem to do this a bit... so why? What is important about Tifa?

I'm not sure how any of these quotes you are proving prove they are in a relationship after the HAHW scene.

I've never denied Tifa's importance to Cloud. Her and Cloud share a long history and aside from Aerith, I believe Tifa is the most important woman to Cloud.

But again -- you've provided zero evidence that Cloud and Tifa are in a relationship after the HAHW scene. In fact, nothing you've provided even remotely comes close to the amount of evidence I have provided against them being a romantic couple after the HAHW scene.

 

[Dashell]

Barret isn't *living* with them because he is away on missions. So why would he be included in *ANY* of the quotes that talk about them *living* together? But just because Barret doesn't *live* with them doesn't mean he isn't apart of the family.

Then why isn't he in the family quote in the AC Prologue book when he's standing right there? (SEe? Now you've made me care about the family again D: )

I've never denied Tifa's importance to Cloud. Her and Cloud share a long history and aside from Aerith, I believe Tifa is the most important woman to Cloud.

Okay there, that's honestly all I wanted. I wanted your opinion on why Tifa is singled out. I wasn't trying to force anything on you. ... at least not this time around

Maybe I'll get my stuff together and provide evidence for the romance and what not... but I really just wanted to hear your opinion on that.

 

[BlankBeat]

Then why isn't he in the family quote in the AC Prologue book when he's standing right there?

Are you denying all of these quotes that establish that Barret is apart of Cloud's family?

1. “I’ll take care of Cloud and Tifa!”
Barret turned round and shouted, “Do your best!” His voice was a little shaky. “Unite the family’s strength and keep at it!” ~CoT

2. "Marlene who had always slept with Tifa, slept with her foster father Barret the night before he left. Their conversations could be heard late into the night. Early next morning, Barret set off." ~CoT

3. "Upon finding out that Edge was under attack during the midst of his travels, he rushed over towards the crisis faced by his family and companions." ~Barret Wallace's Character Profile

4. "Although Marlene is not his real daughter, Barret has a deep affection toward her. If possible, he would have liked to be together with her all the time, however, he could not bring her on perilous trips and their time spent living apart is actually longer. Entrusting Marlene to Elmyra's care in FFVII and Tifa's in AC, he fights hard day after day for the future of his 'daughter'."

5. “A family.” (Tifa)
“Yeah.” (Marlene)
Marlene cheerfully answered in response to Tifa’s murmur.
“I’ll put Cloud in our family too.” (Marlene)
“I appreciate that.” (Cloud) ~Revised CoT

6. “Yeah, let’s go home” Cloud agreed.
“Where to?” Barret asked.
“Our suspended reality.”
“What the hell do you mean by that?”
“Our normal lives.”
“And where do we have something like that?”
“We’ll find one.”
Cloud looked at Tifa and said, “Right?”
“Yeah!” cried the cheerful Marlene. Tifa nodded too, but just like Barret, she wondered where they had a normal life. ~CoT

 

[Dashell]

... okay I'm not sure how 6 says Barret's apart of the family... or 4 for that matter... I mean most of these could just be Barret's calling THEM a family and excluding himself....

As for 1... doesn't Marlene say that in the revised edition?

... but the main reason I don't put him in there is because of the AC Prologue quote where Barret is excluded when he's standing right there. I mean what's up with that?

 

[BlankBeat]

You provided me with this quote, "The present Tifa isn't just Cloud's childhood friend, but also the mother of the 'family' they were forming in Edge."

Well, #6 is when Cloud, Tifa, and Barret first start forming this family in Edge. #6 clearly establishes that Barret was apart of this family that was being formed in Edge. Do you honestly believe (after reading quote #6) that the family being formed in Edge was only Cloud, Tifa, and Marlene?

And in #4, it says that Barret leaves his daughter in Tifa's care during Advent Children. Marlene is Barret's daughter, not Cloud's. If Tifa is considered to be a Mother figure to Marlene, and Barret is Marlene's Father, it is clear that they are both apart of the same family. This idea that there are two families is ridiculous, especially when you see how the family was formed in quote #6. There are two Father figures and one Mother figure in this family of friends. Barret is Marlene's Father figure, Cloud is Denzel's Father figure, and Tifa is the Mother figure to both Marlene and Denzel.

The fact is, Barret rushes back to defend his family and he tells Marlene to unite the families strength. Barret is also involved in the formation of the family.

 

[Dashell]

But... then why is Barret excluded in the Prologue? Can you answer me that?

Start it with "He's excluded in the Prologue because..."

 

[BlankBeat]

But... then why is Barret excluded in the Prologue? Can you answer me that?

Start it with "He's excluded in the Prologue because..."

Don't tell me what to do.

Here's the quote:
"When he awakes, there was his friends. There were the children, freed from their fatal illness. Tifa and Marlene, and Denzel asking for Cloud to heal his Geostigma— his family were waiting. Engulfed in celebration, he realizes where he is meant to live. He realizes that he was able to forgive himself." ~SOURCE: 10th AU, ACC Playback

Since the quote specifically addresses Cloud healing his Geostigma, it also specifies the three people he left because of it. Tifa, Marlene, and Denzel are the ones that want Cloud to be cured of his Geostigma the most because they are the people Cloud abandoned because of it.

This doesn't mean, however, that Barret is not apart of their family. He will *ALWAYS* be Marlene's father. And what's interesting is that in the moment your quote is referring to, Marlene is holding Barret's hand. Pretty ironic, huh?

The fact is, if you look at the story, Barret is apart of the formation and creation of the family. Period.
So do my quotes trump your quotes or do your quotes trump my quotes?
Personally, I'd say: Story > One quote.

Now, was the prologue released before or after CoT?

Also, since I responded to your quote, what is your response to my quotes that put Barret in Cloud's family?

 

[Dashell]

Since the quote specifically addresses Cloud healing his Geostigma, it also specifies the three people he left because of it.

Oh.

Now, was the prologue released before or after Cot?

Honestly, I have no clue. That's a Tres question. I think the revised CoT came after though. Pretty sure.

This doesn't mean, however, that Barret is not apart of their family. He will *ALWAYS* be Marlene's father. And what's interesting is that in the moment your quote is referring to, Marlene is holding Barret's hand. Pretty ironic, huh?

Sure?

And of course he'll always be Marlene's father, don't be silly. I never meant to imply otherwise.

Also, since I responded to your quote, what is your response to my quotes that put Barret in Cloud's family?

I don't really care if Barret is in there or not. I think he was part of it, but now he's on a lot of trips and what not, so he had to sorta leave the family in Cloud and Tifa's hands. He's kinda like a distant uncle of sorts.

 

[BlankBeat]

Oh.

Not sure if this is sarcastic, agreement, dismissal, or indifference.

Sure?

All I'm saying is that Marlene is holding Barret's hand in the scene that the prologue is referring to. To me, that provides evidence that they are all one family.

And of course he'll always be Marlene's father, don't be silly. I never meant to imply otherwise.

All I'm saying is that this 'family of friends' has two Father figures and one Motherly figure. Tifa is a Mother to both Marlene and Denzel, while Barret is Marlene's Father and Cloud is Denzel's Father figure. They are all, however, one family that they all formed together in Edge.

I think he was part of it, but now he's on a lot of trips and what not, so he had to sorta leave the family in Cloud and Tifa's hands. He's kinda like a distant uncle of sorts.

Yes. That is exactly why Barret tells Marlene to "unite the families strength" while he is away. And that is exactly why Barret "rushes back to defend his family" when he hears they are being attacked.

Since you agree that Barret is apart of the family, do you also agree that this family is not evidence of a romantic relationship between Cloud and Tifa?

 

[Dashell]

yeah so i just lost my response to a power outage.... so to summarize what I said... whether or not Barret is in the family has absolutely no baring on Cloud and Tifa's relationship. The reason it's a big deal that Cloud and Tifa are living together is because it's said to be because of the feelings they shared. No where does it say Barret is there because of the feelings he shared with them.... but for Cloud, he specially said he has Tifa this time. He did NOT say that to Barret.

That's the difference. That's the part you're not getting. You can't just say "Oh C/T lived togetgher cause 7th Heaven is a place for Midgar residents..." NO.... they live together because of the feelings they shared. We are told this. That's why it's a big deal that they're living togetgher, with or without Barret

 

[BlankBeat]

NO.... they live together because of the feelings they shared. We are told this. That's why it's a big deal that they're living togetgher, with or without Barret

Where are we told that they are living together because of romantic reasons?

If what you say is true, don't you find it odd that SE put a bed in Cloud's room? Don't you find it odd that Nomura said he doesn't have a clue if Cloud and Tifa are in a relationship? Don't you find it odd that Tifa has to ask if Cloud loves her? Don't you find it odd that Cloud visits Aerith's Church and Tifa gets jealous about it? Don't you find it odd that Nojima has a premise that things don't go well between Cloud and Tifa after the HAHW scene? EDIT: Don't you find it odd that Cloud and Tifa are called "childhood friends" in the Advent Children relationship chart and never have mutual favor arrows?

There is just too much evidence to the contrary of what you are saying.

 

[Selphie Tilmitt]

Blankbeat here is the full Cait Sith quote -

Cait Sith "Looks good. You are perfect for each other!"​

Cait Sith "Aerith's star and Cloud's star! They show a great future!"​

Cait Sith "Cloud, I'll be your matchmaker, preacher... I'll do whatever you want me to!"​

Cait Sith "You just call me when it all happens!"​

So yeah basically at the end with call me when it all happens is what Ryu was referring to with Cait Sith asking to be invited to the wedding ​

**

Hmm, somebody elsewhere brought up what I think was a good point, about Amano art, if it's completely unrelated to anything else/has nothing to do with the story/isn't used to supplement the story/Cloud and Aerith's relationship then why is it still used/used for different things for presenting FFVII with and such? It was used for the cover of the FFVII soundtrack (don't know when this was released though), it was used recently in the inside front cover for Amano's book Sky, wasn't it also used on the walls or something at the last Square Enix FFVII and type conference/that big event they had in Japan last year as well? I don't know/can't think of any other examples right now but I'll let people know if I find any Basically though yeah why do they still use it if it has no meaning and/or never did with regards to Cloud and Aerith being involved?

 

[BlankBeat]

Quex, can you give me the quote you are referring to?

I'd love to analyze it.