The Love Triangle Debate thread of KNEEL BEFORE ZOD OR SUFFER HIS WRATH (ignore the opening posts at your peril) (Round 6)

[Aerobalance]

THIS PROVES N-O-T-H-I-N-G because I never released that anon

oh wait-

Dammit, I wanna get a piece in on this shit before it's too late, but I just don't know where to start.

I guess I'll just say -- TOP LEL

 

[Dashell]

Cloud also starting a family with another woman.

Wrong. Cloud started a family with Tifa, Barret, and Barret's daughter.

So two women


sorry I'm doing that not helping thing again...


but wait... what happened to Cloti being a possible interpretation? Is it no longer up to interpretation? The argument seems to have changed here

 

[Geostigma]

Lol did you come up with that all by yourself?


Then after Aerith's death...

Cloud visits Aerith's Church before and after getting Geostigma. Then, in a passage outlining Tifa's jealousy over Cloud and Aerith's relationship, we learn that Tifa is irritated with Cloud not just because he is dragging around the past, but because the reason might, "perhaps be related to Aerith". Given the context of the passage, it is clear that Cloud visiting Aerith's Church is meant to have romantic undertones due to Tifa's jealousy.

Furthermore, after Aerith's death...

Cloud and Aerith share a spiritual connection at the end of Final Fantasy VII and Cloud says, "An answer from the Planet… the Promised Land… I think I can meet her… there."

Why do Cloti's keep denying Cloud's desire to re-connect with Aerith after she dies? The inconvenient reality you face is that Cloud wants to reunite with Aerith in the Promised Land and continue a spiritual connection with her after her death. Then, in Advent Children, there's the hand reach scene between Cloud and Aerith that is referred to as a "homage" by SE. To me, this highlights the romantic relationship between Cloud and Aerith that has continued into the spiritual world:

"The ending scene of the battle with Bahamut, the scene where Aerith reaches out her hand, is homage to the last scene from a previous production. It was Tetsuya (Nomura)'s idea…." ~Nojima, Reunion Files

Furthermore, during the ending credits of AC, Cloud is shown riding his motorcycle through numerous flower fields. Although Cloud is a delivery boy, he is shown riding his motorcycle through flower fields. Nomura said in the Reunion Files that, "…we filmed the video for the ending credits in Hawaii. There are fields of flowers on both sides of the road, and the colors - yellow and white - are the same as the flowers in Aerith's church."

Nomura also states, "With Aerith, 'flowers' have been her image throughout the series."

And finally, Cloud visits Aerith's Church. Aerith's Church is stated to be Cloud's "Promised Land": "The place where he awakens. That is Cloud's Promised Land……" ~Final Fantasy VII 10th Anniversary Ultimania, Square Enix

Cloud says he wants to find Aerith in the Promised Land at the end of FFVII. Then, during AC, Cloud realizes that Aerith will always be with him, so his Promised Land is wherever Aerith is — which is why it says Cloud's Promised Land is the place where he awakens (ie: the place where he sees Aerith).

And the reason I connect this quote more to Aerith is because of Cloud's line at the end of FFVII where he says he thinks he can meet Aerith in the Promised Land.


Wrong. Cloud started a family with Tifa, Barret, and Barret's daughter.

You are also ignoring all of this evidence that DESTROYS the idea that Cloud and Tifa are a couple after the HAHW scene:

Ryu answered pretty much everything in this post on the last page (i.e. your repeating yourself). And he used direct quotes from the scripts and devs you are misinterpreting

edit:

Blank I accidentally thanked one of your posts. Im sorry to get your hopes up but it was a misclick

 

[Lex]

This thread is like a tumour that recurs over and over again. The surgeons excise it every time but are baffled by the fact that it has identical DNA to the previous tumour. It grows in the same place, it looks exactly the same, it drains the same amount of life from the host. It's not even benign. How is this possible?

 

[BlankBeat]

"An answer from the Planet… the Promised Land… I think I can meet her… there."

------> Cloud visits/eventually lives in Aerith's Church

------> “The thing which she is unable to hide in her irritation towards Cloud is the fact that he isn’t merely dragging the past around, but because that reason might perhaps be related to Aerith." ~Tifa's character profile, 10th Anniversary Ultimania

------> “Upon knowing that Cloud had been residing in Aerith’s church after leaving the place they had been living in together, her expression becomes complex.” ~Tifa’s character profile, 10th Anniversary Ultimania

------> "The place where he awakens. That is Cloud’s Promised Land……”

------>

Nomura in Reunion Files, "…we filmed the video for the ending credits in Hawaii. There are fields of flowers on both sides of the road, and the colors - yellow and white - are the same as the flowers in Aerith's church."

Nomura also states, "With Aerith, 'flowers' have been her image throughout the series."

Gotta love that love beyond death theme that is so prevalent in the FF franchise!

PS: how many Hawk cheerleaders are gonna come out of the woodwork??

 

[Roger]

Lol did you come up with that all by yourself?


Then after Aerith's death...

Cloud visits Aerith's Church before and after getting Geostigma. Then, in a passage outlining Tifa's jealousy over Cloud and Aerith's relationship, we learn that Tifa is irritated with Cloud not just because he is dragging around the past, but because the reason might, "perhaps be related to Aerith". Given the context of the passage, it is clear that Cloud visiting Aerith's Church is meant to have romantic undertones due to Tifa's jealousy.

Furthermore, after Aerith's death...

Cloud and Aerith share a spiritual connection at the end of Final Fantasy VII and Cloud says, "An answer from the Planet… the Promised Land… I think I can meet her… there."

Why do Cloti's keep denying Cloud's desire to re-connect with Aerith after she dies? The inconvenient reality you face is that Cloud wants to reunite with Aerith in the Promised Land and continue a spiritual connection with her after her death. Then, in Advent Children, there's the hand reach scene between Cloud and Aerith that is referred to as a "homage" by SE. To me, this highlights the romantic relationship between Cloud and Aerith that has continued into the spiritual world:

"The ending scene of the battle with Bahamut, the scene where Aerith reaches out her hand, is homage to the last scene from a previous production. It was Tetsuya (Nomura)'s idea…." ~Nojima, Reunion Files

Furthermore, during the ending credits of AC, Cloud is shown riding his motorcycle through numerous flower fields. Although Cloud is a delivery boy, he is shown riding his motorcycle through flower fields. Nomura said in the Reunion Files that, "…we filmed the video for the ending credits in Hawaii. There are fields of flowers on both sides of the road, and the colors - yellow and white - are the same as the flowers in Aerith's church."

Nomura also states, "With Aerith, 'flowers' have been her image throughout the series."

And finally, Cloud visits Aerith's Church. Aerith's Church is stated to be Cloud's "Promised Land": "The place where he awakens. That is Cloud's Promised Land……" ~Final Fantasy VII 10th Anniversary Ultimania, Square Enix

Cloud says he wants to find Aerith in the Promised Land at the end of FFVII. Then, during AC, Cloud realizes that Aerith will always be with him, so his Promised Land is wherever Aerith is — which is why it says Cloud's Promised Land is the place where he awakens (ie: the place where he sees Aerith).

And the reason I connect this quote more to Aerith is because of Cloud's line at the end of FFVII where he says he thinks he can meet Aerith in the Promised Land.

If MEETING someone is enough, then Cloud is quite the slut. Also we SEE the church after ACC: Cloud moved Zack's gravemarker there, packed his things and left. He however is evidently still living with Barret, Marlene, Denzel and Tifa.

 

[Roger]

Also:

FFVII:
Tifa: Yeah, let's go meet her.
AC:
Tifa: Somehow, i knew you were there.

Tifa: Which is it, a memory or us?

Tifa is the one that understands Cloud's desire to meet Aerith again the most. She also used as the one to scold him for his actions in moving into the church. I really do not think she is portrayed as completely in the wrong here. Even if Aerith is able to reach out to Cloud one last time she still can't be much more then a memory to him and he needs to move on. Which he does.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

PS: how many Hawk cheerleaders are gonna come out of the woodwork??

They're more like anti-bullshit cheerleaders. If this were a thread about Dirge or lolis, I'd be hanging really far out in the breeze by myself.

 

[Geostigma]

This thread is bad, and I feel bad for having posted in it.

Im leaving now.

 

[BlankBeat]

If MEETING someone is enough, then Cloud is quite the slut. Also we SEE the church after ACC: Cloud moved Zack's gravemarker there, packed his things and left. He however is evidently still living with Barret, Marlene, Denzel and Tifa.

Maaya Sakamoto (Aerith's Japanese voice actress): "She's presented in this movie as Cloud remembers her, and her spirit is still with him - talking to him throughout the film." ~Reunion Files, pg. 58

"Cloud feels an incredible sense of guilt for not being able to save her [Aerith], but sometimes he can still hear her voice in a soft whisper." (Reunion Files, Aerith's profile)

"I tried to create an atmosphere in which she still seems to be by his side - in spirit at least." ~Nojima, Reunion Files, pg. 58

Cloud: "Aerith is here....and so is Sephiroth."
Cid: "Wa, wa, wait a minute. You serious!?"
Tifa "But how can you tell?"
Cloud "...It's not an excuse. I feel it in my soul." ~Final Fantasy VII

Aerith also appeared in Cloud's dreams during Final Fantasy VII when she tells him about her plan to stop Sephiroth.

To me, Cloud visiting and living in Aerith's Church, in addition to the spiritual connection shown between them during AC, shows us that they are able to communicate with each other and continue a spiritual relationship. Their relationship is established by SE as being romantic (Cloud is Aerith's koibito, Aerith is one of the heroines Cloud is wavering between, and Aerith is Tifa's "love rival"). Cloud and Aerith also share a romantic date together, in addition to many other romantic moments and cameo appearances.

Vincent, Barret, Dyne, and Elmyra all chose to live with the memory of their loved ones instead of moving on. Maybe Cloud is no different -- especially after he realizes how incompatible him and Tifa are?

And in the same way that Yuna searches and finally finds a way to bring back Tidus in FFX-2, I believe Cloud is continuing to search for ways to continue connecting with Aerith.

During the ending of ACC, the yellow and white flowers on the side of the road are still there during the credits. Nomura stated in the Reunion Files that yellow and white flowers are the colors of the flowers in Aerith's church. SE also states that flowers have "always" represented Aerith.

So although the ending of ACC is not as obvious as the ending of AC, I believe ACC still leaves viewers with the final impression that Cloud is still searching for ways to be with Aerith. SE knows that the credits are the final images viewers see, and since the credits happen after everything that had transpired before it, it is only reasonable to assume that anything new shown in the credits happens AFTER the events that came before it.

Yes, Cloud runs a delivery service. But the flowers on the side of the road continue to represent Aerith according to SE. They didn't show Cloud riding on a road that was surrounded by dirt or grass, they specifically chose to show Cloud riding through flower fields that represent Aerith (according to SE). The same flower fields that we see Cloud and Aerith connecting through during AC. The credits don't leave us with the final impression that Cloud is with Tifa and the children, the final impression we are left with is that Cloud is by himself, riding through flower fields, still searching for ways to continue connecting with Aerith.

But again -- Aerith does interact with Cloud both spiritually and physically during AC. Aerith physically boosts Cloud during the battle with Bahamut-Sin:

"Cloud's friends sent him toward Bahamut like a relay race, and as for the last push---Aerith!" ~FFVII 10th Anniversary Ultimania, Aerith's profile

If Cloud and Aerith can interact both physically and spiritually, I see no reason to assume a relationship can't continue between them (especially when we consider that love beyond death is a theme SE has repeated with several FF couples).

 

[Aerobalance]

This thread is bad, and I feel bad for having posted in it.

Im leaving now.

Yes. Please leave so I can have the spotlight! ;_;

 

[Unlucky]

@ this thread

 

[Aerobalance]

@ this thread

Black Mesa Transit Announcement System: Good morning, and welcome to the Black Mesa Transit System. This automated train is provided for the security and convenience of the Black Mesa Research Facility personnel. The time is eight-forty seven A.M... Current outside temperature is ninety three degrees with an estimated high of one hundred and five. The Black Mesa compound is maintained at a pleasant sixty-eight degrees at all times. This train is inbound from Level Three dormitories to Sector C Test Labs and Control Facilities. If your intended destination is a high security area beyond Sector C, you will need to return to the Central Transit hub in Area Nine and board a high security train. If you have not yet submitted your identity to the retinal clearance system, you must report to Black Mesa personel for processing before you will be permitted into the high security branch of the transit system. Due to the high toxicity of material routinely handled in the Black Mesa compound, no smoking, eating, or drinking are permitted within the Black Mesa Transit System. Please keep you limbs inside the train at all times. Do not attempt to open the doors until the train has come to a complete halt at the station platform. In the event of an emergency, passengers are to remain seated and await further instruction. If it is necessary to exit the train, disabled personnel should be evacuated first. Please, stay away from electrified rails, and proceed to an emergency station until assistance arrives. A reminder that the Black Mesa Hazard Course decathlon will commence this evening at 1900 hours in the Level Three facility. The semi-finals for high security personnel will be announced in a separate secure access transmission. Remember, more lives than your own may depend on your fitness. Do you have a friend or relative who make a valuable addition to the Black Mesa team? Immediate openings are available in the areas of "Materials Handling" and "Low Clearance Security." Please contact Black Mesa personnel for further information. If you have an associate with a background in the areas of "Theoretical Physics," "Biotechnology," or other high-tech disciplines, please contact our civilian recruitment division. The Black Mesa Research Facility is an equal-opportunity employer. A reminder to all Black Mesa personnel: Regular radiation and biohazard screenings are a requirement of continued employment in the Black Mesa Research Facility. Missing a scheduled urinalisys or radiation check-up is grounds for immediate termination. If you feel you have been exposed to radioactive or other hazardous materials in the course of your duties, contact your radiation safety officer immediately. Work safe, work smart. Your future depends on it. Now arriving at Sector C Test Labs and Control Facilities. Please stand back from the automated door and wait for the security officer to verify your identity. Before exiting the train, be sure to check your area for personal belongings. Thank you, and have a very safe, and productive day.

 

[jazzflower92]

This is the officially the thread that doesn't end and it goes on and on my friends some people started posting not knowing how long it could grow and they'll continue posting in it just because.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VZNaecq_rpU

 

[Geostigma]

@ this thread

Clearly this means Clerith is right.

amidoingitright?

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Okay, peeps, as funny as all this is, we (myself included) do need to knock it off with the memes and spammy off-topic-ness now.

Besides, as we all know, the thread is more of a joke when everyone's serious.

 

[Roger]

Maaya Sakamoto (Aerith's Japanese voice actress): "She's presented in this movie as Cloud remembers her, and her spirit is still with him - talking to him throughout the film." ~Reunion Files, pg. 58

"Cloud feels an incredible sense of guilt for not being able to save her [Aerith], but sometimes he can still hear her voice in a soft whisper." (Reunion Files, Aerith's profile)

Sometimes, soft whisper, I don't think that's a good basis for a relationship.

"I tried to create an atmosphere in which she still seems to be by his side - in spirit at least." ~Nojima, Reunion Files, pg. 58

Cloud: "Aerith is here....and so is Sephiroth."
Cid: "Wa, wa, wait a minute. You serious!?"
Tifa "But how can you tell?"
Cloud "...It's not an excuse. I feel it in my soul." ~Final Fantasy VII

And to Sephiroth he says: Stay where you belong, in my memories. That's where the dead belong.

Aerith also appeared in Cloud's dreams during Final Fantasy VII when she tells him about her plan to stop Sephiroth.

When she was alive yes.

To me, Cloud visiting and living in Aerith's Church, in addition to the spiritual connection shown between them during AC, shows us that they are able to communicate with each other and continue a spiritual relationship.

We KNOW that Aerith took no notice of Cloud visits to her church, we get Aerith's perspective, she has no idea how he is doing. Aerith finds the capcity to reach out to him, but there's no basis for that Cloud is able to accomplish the same.

Vincent, Barret, Dyne, and Elmyra all chose to live with the memory of their loved ones instead of moving on. Maybe Cloud is no different -- especially after he realizes how incompatible him and Tifa are?

Dyne chose to DIE. Lucretia, unlike Aerith is in this world. And when the hell do Barret and Elmyra consider their relationships with their long dead lovers on-going exactly?

And in the same way that Yuna searches and finally finds a way to bring back Tidus in FFX-2, I believe Cloud is continuing to search for ways to continue connecting with Aerith.

Yuna search started because Rikku found sphere that suggested he was physically alive. Before that she resigned herself to the fact that it was over. And Tidus didn't even leave a body like Aerith. She was not contemplating a relationship with a ghost. It is hardly the same.

The same flower fields that we see Cloud and Aerith connecting through during AC.

The same flowerfields we see Aerith save Cloud's life through. She was not making social visits.

The credits don't leave us with the final impression that Cloud is with Tifa and the children, the final impression we are left with is that Cloud is by himself, riding through flower fields, still searching for ways to continue connecting with Aerith.

Credits are not the last thing we see, the last thihng we see is Cloud and Denzel observing Aerith's flowers aggressively growing on Zack's grave.

But again -- Aerith does interact with Cloud both spiritually and physically during AC. Aerith physically boosts Cloud during the battle with Bahamut-Sin:

Again, not a damn social visit. I can't believe someone read Case of Lifestream and left it with the impression that Aerith can physically interact with the world of the living willynilly.

(especially when we consider that love beyond death is a theme SE has repeated with several FF couples).

Not a single one of your examples from those several FF couples comes even close to Cloud having an active relationship with a person he buried. Not even close.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I really want to know how Barret and Myrna are an example of "love beyond death" -- and, for that matter, how choosing not to remarry is even the same thing as choosing not to move on. But I guess that second one is another topic altogether.

Anyway, so he hasn't remarried in the three years since she died while he's been leading a terrorist cell and barely managing to take care of the infant that was left in his care.

Clearly, the idea of remarrying is not something he would ever consider. What with all the time he has had for it.

 

[Strangelove]

cait sith didn't technically predict a wedding, his fortune indicated good compatibility then anticipated a possible wedding

there's reading between the lines, and there's reading what the actual lines say before trying to fit other stuff in

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

The more I think about this "love beyond death" bullshit the more annoyed I get by it. Barret and Elmyra never address the topic of remarriage. For all we know, Barret would love to have another wife once he sorts out all his personal problems. For all we know, Elmyra dated tons of guys while raising Aerith -- or she may have wanted to but not felt comfortable bringing strange men into her home around the young girl she was raising, particularly given where they lived.

We simply don't know.

As for Dyne, he's not a good example of anything save a self-loathing, criminally insane individual with aspirations to drown the world in fire.

And Vincent ... well, yeah, he sure as shit didn't move on with his life, but I don't recall a point in any Compilation title that portrayed this as a positive thing. Following his finally coming to terms with everything in Dirge, he appears ready to move on with his life. Maybe this will include romance, maybe it won't. If he decides it will, the plot gods have provided him a chick with Lucrecia's memories and feelings for him.

Yuna -- she didn't do much of anything with her life after X, but this had to do with more than just Tidus. It had as much to do with regret over how they beat Sin at the sacrifice of multiple people. Once more, her languishing in the past was not portrayed positively, and all of X-2 was about moving on, for Spira and for her.

In the end, she moves on, decides the story of her life will be a good one and only then is she reunited with Tidus after growing as a person.

Just like those two, Cloud dragging his past around is communicated to be a very negative thing, destructive for himself and hurtful for those who love him.

 

[Strangelove]

Ashe and Rasler were brought up before, I think, but that's not the best comparison either. The death in that case just drove Ashe down a negative path towards revenge. That's all she chased. That was a destructive emotional state. That's hardly nice.

I think with this topic certain things become sort of talking points that get brought out when people need a list making. You get the summary of it but the greater context is lost (like the Tidus and Yuna comparison, when Yuna didn't really do anything to find Tidus until prompted as was mentioned before, which isn't the same as 'Cloud is searching for a way to connect with Aerith').

For that matter, by which I mean completely different, why does the end of AC (not the credits because I'm not going there) mea Aerith is connected to Cloud somehow in a romantic fashion? If you look at how the scene plays out, how does that suggest them getting together? Aerith walks away from Cloud, into a white light, together with Zack. She asks Cloud if he is okay, then leaves.

And then she stands in a field somewhere for several years waiting for Cloud until Square went all Exorcist and banished her from said field in ACC.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Ashe and Rasler were brought up before, I think, but that's not the best comparison either. The death in that case just drove Ashe down a negative path towards revenge. That's all she chased. That was a destructive emotional state. That's hardly nice.

I think with this topic certain things become sort of talking points that get brought out when people need a list making. You get the summary of it but the greater context is lost (like the Tidus and Yuna comparison, when Yuna didn't really do anything to find Tidus until prompted as was mentioned before, which isn't the same as 'Cloud is searching for a way to connect with Aerith').

For that matter, by which I mean completely different, why does the end of AC (not the credits because I'm not going there) mea Aerith is connected to Cloud somehow in a romantic fashion? If you look at how the scene plays out, how does that suggest them getting together? Aerith walks away from Cloud, into a white light, together with Zack. She asks Cloud if he is okay, then leaves.

And then she stands in a field somewhere for several years waiting for Cloud until Square went all Exorcist and banished her from said field in ACC.

Not only that, but said departure into the white light is said to be the of Zack and Aerith departing the world of the living together for the literal world of the dead, where they belong.

 

[OneWingedDemon]

Right, because after two people confess their mutual feelings to each other, the natural expectation is that nothing happens. How far shall we keep moving the goalpost?

"Well, sir, they confessed their feelings and all that, and directly after that they end up living together, but we don't know that's because they have feelings for each other. Could be because Cloud's an abysmal cook. They say Sephiroth burned Nibelheim, but the truth is it was Cloud's cooking. Can't two adults who love each other cohabitate and raise children who see them as parents, without being accused of fucking each other?"

While we're on the subject of SE's intentions, keep in mind the above is also removed in Advent Children Complete.

 

[Danseru-kun]

lawlz

I have multiple accounts with one e-mail. My Cloud x Aerith account is DansantCaparet, but I'm not able to ask questions under that account. I'm only able to ask questions using my main account, so I typically ask questions anonymously.

You do realize you can create multiple accounts with one e-mail, right? Regardless, I stand by what I said to you.

What's funny is that people who complain about anonymous comments ALLOW anonymous comments. You do realize that you can turn anonymous comments off, right? In fact, Tumblr tells you to turn anonymous comments off if they bother you.

I have no sympathy for people who complain about anonymous comments but then choose to allow anonymous comments.

But good job 007!!

I did turn my anonymous message when an anon was harassing me, I know you were not calling me names or anything but I find it suspicious that you have messaged me personally before and suddenly now you're anon.

And please read this following

please

I've replied to you that I do not have a problem with you finding your evidence as valid, however I have my own perspective.

I've written that a couple of times that I have my own PERSPECTIVE.

However despite YOU insisting that the LTD is all about INTERPRETATION you keep on messaging me that Clerith is the official pairing.

Why do you have to use the tiny ask box in tumblr? it's because you want to be ANONYMOUS. I see that as a form of harassment, especially when you can contact me HERE in my own profile page. Now it's apparently my fault because I opened my anon box and I should not complain?I hope you don't feel the same way about people who keep their doors unlocked and a preacher comes in and shoves religion at their throat.

Even if I said I have my own personal reasons for not accepting Clerith, you don't stop.You said I "deny common sense" and I'm a "silly Cloti" srly? You don't respect my interpretation?

That's the reason I don't want to debate with you anymore. You use the cover "all is interpretation" all the while forcing down your Clerith beliefs on us and tearing down the Cloti pairing with every bit of so-called evidence you find.

 

[Kermitu Kleric Katie]

I just wanna say something. BlankBeat, you keep saying Cloud and Tifa living together is not proof of a romantic relationship because Cid and Sierra lived together in FFVII but weren't in a relationship. However, notice how FFVII goes out of its way to specify that Cid and Sierra aren't in a romantic relationship, whereas neither AC/C nor Episode Tifa bothers to specify whether or not Cloud and Tifa are in a romantic relationship. This is because when a man and a woman who aren't related live together, it's generally safest to assume they're in a romantic relationship, to the point where even Cloud does this regarding Cid and Sierra in FFVII, unless specified or implied otherwise. And even then, one of the conversations between Barret and Cid in Episode Barret very strongly implies Cloud and Tifa ARE, in fact, in a romantic relationship.