The Love Triangle Debate thread of KNEEL BEFORE ZOD OR SUFFER HIS WRATH (ignore the opening posts at your peril) (Round 6)

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The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
Apparently Ashe had plenty of time to think about remarriage during the two years her father was being murdered, her trusted defender was being framed for said regicide, her kingdom was taken under occupation and she herself was living under an assumed identity while pretending to be dead and organizing a rebellion to retake her homeland.

And I guess the folllwing year in which she rebuilt her kingdom would have been better spent receiving suitors.

I also like how BlankBeat can say "in the end, she remaind alone" with what I presume to be a straight face. Seriously. "In the end" for a woman who was fucking twenty the last time we saw her and who -- as the goddamn queen -- will no doubt marry for political purposes if for no other reason. Shit, her first marriage was a political one; she just happened to fall in love with the guy for real.

One of the absolute worst arguments to come out of the fucking LTD, and that's saying something.
 

BlankBeat

Pro Adventurer
There’s no denying the fact that the personal and intimate tale of Cloud and Aerith has always been tragic and sad. It’s one of the reasons why most of us are drawn to this pairing. There’s just something “extraordinary” about it in comparison to other couples. It's no wonder that this pairing had stayed strong in our hearts despite constant claims that the relationship shared between these two is over. It’s quite obvious that the bond shared in this pairing wouldn’t end that easily. No matter how much others try to deny or ignore the facts of their story, they can never change the conclusion that Aerith is still very much in Cloud’s life even after she died. This is clearly seen in Advent Children and Advent Children Complete, as well as in the novella Maiden Of The Planet.

Even In the darkest tragedy, there is light. Cloud and Aerith share a personal tragedy even as the world shares their triumph. It is the drive to seek something more then what is common or easily possible - to be transformed into something extraordinary. A transformation that, in fact, could never have happened if Aerith had lived. While some say that her death ended Cloud and Aerith's relationship, her death in fact has brought them closer in a way that could never have been predicted. Sheared of the flesh, Aerith's spirit remains strong in Cloud's heart.
"Most humans thought death meant that they would become nothing. Having their consciousness engulfed by darkness, never waking again, a nothingness that can't be comprehended? They thought death meant to be totally annihilated. That's why humans feared death. They were afraid of losing their existence. Even if they themselves realized that they were a race that had a short lifespan, there were many that wanted to avoid it. Even those that had reached an old age after a fulfilling life.

Aerith knew that death didn't mean to be annihilated."
~Maiden of the Planet
Maiden of the Planet goes on to explain that once a person dies, they simply enter a new state of being. You see, death never ended Aerith’s story and her bond with Cloud. She continues to stay with him in this new form. For this reason, Aerith's death alone doesn't mean that her connection with Cloud has ended.

In the world of Final Fantasy VII, death is not an end, but a new beginning. Aerith, in fact, is stronger in death then she ever was in life, and most of her major accomplishments take place after her death. In her life, Cloud was not fully himself and difficult to reach. After her death, though, Cloud's heart opened to what Aerith meant, and she was at last able to reach him despite the guilt and despair which had plagued him.
"It was a place full of energy where countless souls were merged together along with their knowledge and experiences. Even their memories were unbound from them. But Aerith was "whole". She remained herself in the place where the consciousness of the dead flowed and swirled about, keeping the character she had when she was alive. She retained the consciousness of the Aerith Gainsborough she once was and she was now drifting with the Lifestream." ~ Maiden Of The Planet
This story reveals that once a person dies, they return to the Planet, so that their consciousness joins and merges with the Lifestream along with countless others. Though Maiden of the Planet shows other spirits regaining their original state in Aerith's presence, those spirits lose their form to once again join the Lifestream when she is no longer in their midst. Yet, Aerith is unique because her consciousness does not merge with the other spirits in the Lifestream. Instead, Aerith retains her individuality and remains the same person despite the loss of her physical being. She remains who she was throughout Maiden of the Planet while helping the planet and looking after Cloud.

It becomes even more interesting when both Advent Children and Advent Children Complete reveal that Aerith is still close to Cloud. Two years had passed, and Aerith continues watching over him. Some people say that the movie finally brings closure to Cloud and Aerith's relationship and that both are now able to move on. However, one of the creators has provide an almost entirely different conclusion.

While humans return to the planet upon their death, the Cetra (and half Cetra) apparently do not. At least, not quickly. Aerith's self remains constant after her death for at least two years straight, and she doesn't seem ready to return to the planet after Advent Children/Complete, either. Her bond with Cloud is even more pronounced, as she is able to manifest to him in a visible, tangible form. She is also able to do this for the children, and perhaps for Kadaj at the moment of his death so that she might redeem him. Yet, Aerith does it repeatedly for Cloud. She is not, apparently, able to do it for her other friends in Avalanche. Only Cloud.
"The words “memetic legacy” are used a lot in the film…but in Advent Children, rather than focusing on memories we wanted to show that consciousness is what lives on. We took the ending of the game and expanded on that idea. Even if they’re dead, their consciousness is still with us. As for Cloud…he sees Aerith several times throughout the film. It’s not that he sees her because he feels her presence. He sees her because her consciousness…lives on inside him." ~Nomura; Distance Interview
Even though many people assume that Cloud and Aerith can never be together again, it seems that Nomura has actually managed to bring them closer than ever before. Rather than having them reunited in life, Nomura has instead given us confirmation that they'll always be together no matter what. A fitting “closure” for an “extraordinary” tale wouldn't you say? Although others believe that the bond between Aerith and Cloud ended after her death, it becomes quite clear through countless sources that their bond is stronger than death itself. Perhaps stronger than anything Cloud ever had with anyone else.

Love transcendent -.does the flesh need to be present for love to live on? That, perhaps, is the question that continues to make certain people question the CloudxAerith pairing even now. And yet, the progression of the story starts with Cloud trapped in lies, and Aerith, perhaps, trapped in flesh. As Cloud sheds his lies and Aerith her life, each grow to become significantly more then they were before. As they grow personally, so they also grow together. One might wonder why the creators were so adamant about Aerith staying dead. Having achieved a higher state of being, it would not be fitting for Aerith to return to her physical body. It is, instead, more fitting to reward her with love now that she no longer has life...and past that life, past everything.

Doubt

Many pro-CloudxTifa arguments usually revolve around the idea of their actions being viewed as normal and natural. CloudxTifa fans consider it natural for Cloud to move on. They also interpret certain actions of Cloud and Tifa as being romantic, and they consider this enough to prove that Cloud indeed loves Tifa. For evidence, they use things like Tifa resting on Cloud’s shoulder in Final Fantasy VII, and Cloud “blushing” in Case of Tifa. Advocates of the CloudxTifa pairing feel that the romantic nature of these actions is so glaringly obvious to everyone that it shouldn’t be questioned. Other examples have been provided by CloudxTifa supporters as they make claims about this supposedly obvious romance. There is, however, one common theme that most of these examples share.

Essentially, Cloud and Tifa seem to be 'normalized', as if their relationship is standard. It's all perfectly normal and natural for them to fight, for them to struggle, for them to have all the problems that would seem to be...standard in a realistic relationship. And yet, isn't this taking place in a world of fantasy? Fantasy couples simply do not have problems as a rule. If they do, then something is very, very wrong. CloudxTifa supporters claim that it’s natural and normal to view their actions as being romantic. They claim that anything else would be unacceptable and abnormal.

However, the truth is that it's nothing more than a simple appeal to nature. A fallacy that is often the main cause of conflicts, wars and strife all across the globe. A flaw in our logic that has us encased in a world we grew up with, while being unaware that others might experience something different. Such people believe that what they consider "normal" and "natural" is the same for everyone else. In short, “This is how the world is, and this is how the world should be”. The true core of Love Triangle debates is a never-ending debate about our own view of the world and relationships, while things that truly matter are ignored.

The problem is, such appeals to nature do not pertain to worlds of fantasy and magic. In the world of Final Fantasy VII, magic is common, world-destroying magic exists, and the main source of electricity (Mako) is basically made from the essence of souls. Our own world is very different.

Cloud and Tifa

We’re all so very focused on our own points of view that we manage to ignore certain things. All of the romantic examples offered by CloudxTifa supporters really don't matter when we see Tifa ask this question of Cloud in Case of Tifa:
"Do you love me?" ~Tifa; Case of Tifa
Tifa's question doesn’t fit with the so-called “romantic gestures” that advocates of the CloudxTifa pairing use as examples. If it’s so glaringly obvious, why then did Tifa feel the need to question Cloud’s feelings for her? Why is it that CloudxTifa fans are so sure that Cloud loves Tifa when she herself doesn't know? Why did she doubt Cloud’s feelings when it’s so clear to others? Truth is, some people are so busy trying to prove their own point of view that they fail to see Tifa’s point of view.

At the very least, "Do you love me?" is a statement of supreme insecurity. It also reflects a need to know and a need to hear the words. If Cloud's actions have been so obvious, Tifa would have no reason to ask.

At times, it is asked, "How do you say 'I love you' in Japanese?" The answer normally given in reply is, "You don't." In a culture where saying the words is not commonly done, then there is only one conclusion to draw from Tifa's statement. Tifa has to ask because she doesn't know herself. If Tifa herself doesn't know, then Cloud hasn't said or done anything to make Tifa think he loves her. Therefore, all of the examples given to us by CloudxTifa supporters who claim that the love of Cloud and Tifa is so obvious were actually negated by Tifa herself.

By Angelalex242

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aerithliveson.gif

"The words “memetic legacy” are used a lot in the film…but in Advent Children, rather than focusing on memories we wanted to show that consciousness is what lives on. We took the ending of the game and expanded on that idea. Even if they’re dead, their consciousness is still with us. As for Cloud…he sees Aerith several times throughout the film. It’s not that he sees her because he feels her presence. He sees her because her consciousness…lives on inside him." ~Nomura; Distance Interview
Nomura makes it clear in this statement that Aerith is more than just a memory to Cloud. He also specifies that Cloud doesn't see Aerith simply because he senses her spiritual presence. According to Nomura, Aerith actually lives on... inside of Cloud.

But how is this possible?

In the world of Final Fantasy VII, the Lifestream is already a 'bonding of souls' on a macro scale. 'Returning to the Planet' is simply allowing one's self to fully experience the other souls of the world. The 'Promised Land' for most people, therefore, is simply a spiritual unity with everyone else. It is a bonding of souls on a massive scale. The Promised Land would essentially be equivalent to Heaven in our own culture. It seems that Aerith has done the same on a micro scale - or a one to one basis - with Cloud. Essentially, Aerith has bound her soul and her consciousness with Cloud in the way most souls do with the Lifestream.

And what does this mean for their relationship?

The merging of souls actually makes a love relationship between Cloud and Aerith possible beyond the grave. Their merged consciousness allows Cloud to have something to relate to, in spirit form or otherwise. After all, Cloud can see her whenever he desires. And if the merging of their souls is complete, then so is their love for one another.

In many religions, people speak of their "relationship with God", despite the fact they've never seen or heard God in any sort of direct form. Since it is possible for Cloud to speak with and hear Aerith, it is therefore possible to directly have a relationship with her. The possibility of Cloud enjoying an actual loving relationship with Aerith cannot be discounted.

This option seems to be unavailable to other humans in the living world. Yet, Aerith is half Cetra and Cloud is a Jenova plus Mako halfbreed of a man. Neither Aerith nor Cloud can be considered to be typical human beings. They are both extraordinary beings, when one is only half human to begin with and the other has cells from the Crisis in the Sky in his veins. They are extraordinary beings in a magical world.

Besides, it is in fact possible for other souls to merge within the Lifestream itself, as shown in the novella Maiden of the Planet. When Aerith first meets the spirit of Dyne, he is an angry soul tormented by guilt for taking the lives of many people. The blood of those Dyne killed is thickly layered upon his skin, signifying his sin. However, when Aerith touches Dyne's bloodied arm, the layers of blood start to fade from him along with his guilt. The following then happens:
For the first time, Dyne smiled from the bottom of his heart and quietly, his image faded away. The tip of the gun on his left arm disappeared.
"After dying and experiencing all that, I can finally stop turning my back against Barret and Marlene. Let me say my thanks..."
Just before he sunk into the Lifestream, Aerith saw it.
She saw Mako particles make their way towards Dyne and huddle together on him as if they had a will of their own. Dyne's faint, surprised voice could be heard.
"Eleanor?"

~Maiden of the Planet
In this passage, it is shown that Dyne's guilt has served as a barrier between his soul and the soul of his wife, Eleanor. It is also quite obvious that their love for one another continues to be strong, despite their respective deaths. Eleanor's spirit has actually been waiting to reunite with him within the Lifestream. Once Dyne's guilt is healed by Aerith, the soul of Eleanor is finally able to join with the soul of her husband.

In much the same way, Cloud's guilt prevented him from communing with the spirit of Aerith prior to Advent Children/Complete. Yet, once Aerith touched Cloud's arm in the flower field, his guilt started to heal. Cloud was living with tremendous guilt for two years after Final Fantasy VII, which is another parallel to Dyne's situation. However, in Cloud's case, the guilt he bore was for letting Aerith die.

Both Dyne and Cloud also consider the deeds behind their guilt to be sins, which Cloud expressed to Vincent in the Sleeping Forest, and the story of Advent Children/Complete revolves around Cloud resolving this guilt. Once their guilt was resolved, both Cloud and Dyne were able to reunite with the women they love. This is clearly shown once Aerith hits center stage near the end of Advent Children/Complete. She and Cloud actually become the main focus, even getting their own music video with a song that speaks of love, hope, and sadness.

......

But does Cloud want a relationship with the spirit form of Aerith? Having been healed of Geostigma already, he wouldn't be seeking her out again repeatedly for his health. The fact that Cloud went to live in Aerith's church prior to Advent Children/Complete spoke of his continuing desire to be near her, even before the start of Advent Children/Complete. The ending of the movie, along with the video Reminiscence, suggest that Cloud frequently goes to visit her in the flower field. Even though Aerith's spirit form has merged with his own, Cloud actually seeks out time to be in her presence. This can only speak of Cloud's continuing desire to be with her.

What other necessary purpose could there be for Aerith to remain in this world besides Cloud wanting her to be there? She has no more cosmic reasons to stick around, such as Geostigma or Meteor. Her work is done. Besides, Cloud is the only person to whom Aerith appears. Would there be any other reason for Aerith to stick around, except that Cloud wants her to? There seem to be no alternate explanations for Aerith's continued presence, other than Cloud wanting to be with her... perhaps forever.

By Angelalex242
 
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Geostigma

Pro Adventurer
AKA
gabe
Do you even read the posts blank or are you just copy and pasting these silly excuses for romance off of some clerith blogs?
 

Fangu

Great Old One
Hurr when someone mentions Ashe I have to say something X)
And, finally, in FFXII, Princess Ashe is shown grieving for her lost love, Rasler. Throughout the game, she is shown remembering him many times. Most importantly, though, is the fact that Ashe chooses not to move on. In the end, she remains alone, the memory of Rasler still close to her heart.
In fact, it's the opposite. A major theme in the game for Ashe is that she swears revenge for Rasler.
In fact illusions of Rasler is used to make her go to war, and they are more about Ashe wanting revenge for both Rasler and her kingdom. In the end she chooses to let his memory rest, she chooses peace instead.
I'm pretty sure he'll be in her thoughts for the rest of her life, but saying she doesn't remarry because of Rasler isn't true. Like Tres says, Ashe has to be Queen first and foremost, and one day she will probably marry for political reasons. I believe it's why she puts up with Al-Cids flatter too, because she knows that one day she might end up marrying him.
The localization team chose to translate Penelo's letter to "she wouldn't say it because she has to keep up appearances, but I think she misses him" (about Basch). (The original says something about Ashe being lonely, Penelo hoping Basch will return to Rabanastre soon.)
Meaning Ashe has to let duty come first, emotions second, and she could never marry someone beneath her rank. She has to marry royalty, or not marry at all.
 

Kermitu Kleric Katie

KULT OF KERMITU
:rudefacepalm:
BlankBeat, why'd you have to drag me into this? I had no intentions of actually joining the debate, my statement was merely an aside to point out the flaws in your reasoning. I guess I kinda had it coming though, and since it would be rude of me to not respond to your poast I guess I'll respond...*grumble*
What's funny is that Cid and Shera get married after living together, which unequivocally tells us that they are a romantic couple. Cloud and Tifa never get married or do anything that is romantic after the HAHW scene.
This is a lie. They start living together and fucking raising kids together. How many people do you know who live together and raise kids together and aren't in a romantic relationship. They're also contextually implied to sleep in the same room, if not the same bed. And just because we never see them do anything 'romantic', doesn't mean they don't do anything romantic. It'd be kind of out of place for the story to take a pause for a Cloud/Tifa makeout session, wouldn't ya think?
What evidence do you have that they are a romantic couple after the HAHW scene?
Nojima quote, Cloud saying he has Tifa in a different way from before, and Cid and Barret talking about them in the context of a romantic relationship, to name a few.
Cid and Shera get married. That's their proof. What is the proof for Cloud and Tifa?
What proof do you have for Cloud and Aerith? I gave my proof for Cloud and Tifa above, now give me evidence for Cloud and Aerith.
I agree that it is *USUALLY* safe to assume that when a man and a woman are living together, it is usually the case that they are in a romantic relationship.
But...
But what complicates this typical assumption in the case of Cloud and Tifa is...
A: The place Cloud and Tifa reside in has *always* been home-base for those that reside in Midgar.
What do you mean? Explain.
B: Typically, romantic couples sleep in the same room, yet we are shown that Cloud has a bed in his room.
I'd hardly call that a bed. It's moar of a cot, and that's not his room, it's his office. Cloud and Tifa have strong contextual implications of sleeping in the same room in Episode Tifa.
C: The family formed was formed with Barret and Barret's daughter.
Barret left before Denzel even moved in. Barret is never called a part of the 7th Heaven family.
D: Most families that are formed are formed from a romantic place. This is not the case with Cloud and Tifa's situation.
Prove it.
E: Nomura has no clue if Cloud and Tifa are in a relationship.
Quote is old and contradicted by a later Nomura quote.
F: We know that Cloud and Tifa are going through issues because of Nojima's premise, what we see with our own eyes, and Tifa wondering if Cloud loves her.
And this is evidence of them not being in a romantic relationship because...? Seriously, these are things that are normal of a romantic relationship going through issues.
G: Cloud visits the Church of Tifa's love rival and Tifa get's jealous about it (which proves that Cloud visiting Aerith's Church has romantic undertones, especially when you consider Cloud's declaration about meeting Aerith at the end of FFVII)
First of all, I doubt Tifa still considers Aerith a love rival at that point, especially since Aerith is FUCKING DEAD and Tifa's already with Cloud. Second of all, you're assuming Tifa is jealous but provide no evidence to support this claim. Lastly, Cloud's statement about meeting someone is very ambiguous as to what Cloud is talking about meeting, and Tifa's the one who expresses the desire to meet, Cloud merely states he thinks they could meet whatever it is he's talking about. Though Aerith admittedly is the most likely thing he's talking about, he's hardly talking in a romantic context. If you look into the context of the scene you'd realize he's talking about getting an answer from the planet about something, most likely the fate of humanity. And I will reiterate, it is Tifa who expresses the desire to meet whatever Cloud is talking about.
H: The *ADVENT CHILDREN* relationship chart lists Cloud and Tifa as "childhood friends" *NOT* "romantic partners" or "lovers"
And? It's not like being lovers would negate their status as childhood friends. And not to mention said relationship charts neglect to mention Cloud and Aerith as romantic partners or lovers, or even former lovers.
All of these reasons make it clear that Cloud and Tifa living together (at Seventh Heaven in particular) is very different than the way traditional romantic couples live together.

No, all of these "reasons" make it clear you have no idea how a logical argument works and fail to understand context clues and literary analysis.

*waits for BlankBeat's inevitable rehash of previous arguments*
 

Octo

KULT OF KERMITU
AKA
Octo, Octorawk, Clarky Cat, Kissmammal2000
Did anyone else shudder at "sheared of the flesh"? brrrrr :scared:

Also just cos im bored, what evidence do we have for Cid/Shera?
 
Just to complement the Japanese quote, here is a transcript of the official English localization which also confirms the marriage status. I think it's the same NPC as in that Japanese screenshot Danseru linked.


WRO Member: While the airship is named after
Cid's wife
, construction of the
vessel wasn't performed by the
captain at all.
Our team of loyal scientists
here at the World Regenesis
Organization or those criminals
at Shinra weren't involved, either.
To tell you the truth, the ship
is not even from this era. It is
a relic from a lost civilization.
Most of the machinery in the
engine room is boxed up in
black casing, so we don't even
know what half of it does.
There's no need to worry. Even
though we cannot reproduce the
technology, we can still put it
to good use.
I can almost guarantee
there will be no problems.
Almost...
 

Octo

KULT OF KERMITU
AKA
Octo, Octorawk, Clarky Cat, Kissmammal2000
That reminded me of "Nothing can possibleye go wrong...I mean possibly go wrong...that's the first thing thats ever gone wrong"

So wait he doesn't know what the machine does/is capable of but its totes okay and theres no way it could blow up or give everyone radiation poisoning or anything. This guy is clearly an idiot, and therefore his testimony regarding Cid/Shera cannot be trusted! I rest my case :wacky:
 

Dashell

SMILE!
AKA
Sonique, Quexinos, Pinkie Pie, Derpy Hooves
You've quoted Maiden of Who Travels the Planet three times now. You know it's not canon right?

Oh don't even. :doh:


But seriously BlankBeat, I think it's cool that you come here to take everyone on, but all you've been doing is copy pasting essays from other websites. People have responded to some of your posts but you don't respond to them. You just c/p another essay. You should at least respond to those people, when you just c/p stuff that's pretty much unrelated to what we're talking about, it makes it look like you don't have any retorts for our points.
 

Geostigma

Pro Adventurer
AKA
gabe
I consider it canon and I don't like when people say it's not :monster:

But its not canon. Thats not up to the fans thats up to the creators.

If someone brings up the Superman vs Batman argument everyone who knows there stuff about DC openly ignores Frank Millers The Dark Knight Returns where Batman beats Superman because it wasnt canon.

I dont see why the same cant be applied here. Stories like this are just endorsed fan fiction nothing more nothing less, its just all "what ifs".
 

Geostigma

Pro Adventurer
AKA
gabe
fanfiction published in an official source... okay :monster:

>Implying employees working with in a company are incapable of being fans and writing fiction.

The point is that just because its released by an official source does not mean its cannon. Companies need non cannon events to show its fans "what if" stories without actually impacting there main universe in a significant way. There great fun but shouldnt be taken seriously.

Unfortunately the story in question was not cannon and thats not up to you to decide on.
 

Dashell

SMILE!
AKA
Sonique, Quexinos, Pinkie Pie, Derpy Hooves
Oh well let's just throw that out with everything

The Ultimanias are just fan works... cause they're all fans :monster:
 

Lex

Administrator
It's still fanfiction though, which inherently means it's not canon. This is something I genuinely don't understand. I get that it's published in an official source but that doesn't magically make it canon when it clearly says it's fanfic.
 

BlankBeat

Pro Adventurer
Dunsparce said:
This is a lie. They start living together and fucking raising kids together.
That is an oversimplification of what actually happened.

1. Would it be fair to say that Barret and Tifa were both raising Marlene at the beginning of Final Fantasy VII? And I know the counter-argument is that Cloud and Tifa expressed mutual feelings, while Barret and Tifa did not. But the point I'm making is that Cloud and Tifa raising Marlene in particular does not remind me of any romantic relationships that I know of.

2. As for Denzel, well, (some) Cloti's act as though Cloud and Tifa went to an adoption agency and adopted a kid together. But the reality is that Cloud believes Denzel was brought to him by Aerith, which to me, shows another spiritual connection between Cloud and Aerith. The bottom line is, how Denzel views Cloud and Tifa is of no relevance to how Cloud and Tifa view each other.

Both Marlene and Denzel in particular are not evidence of a romantic relationship between Cloud and Tifa.

Why do (some) Cloti's continue to make it seem as though Cloud and Tifa created a child together and/or went to an adoption agency together?

So although on the surface what you say is true --("They start living together and fucking raising kids together.")-- when you look beneathe the surface, it paints a much different picture.

Dunsparce said:
How many people do you know who live together and raise kids together and aren't in a romantic relationship.
I'll pose you another rhetorical question: how many Father's do you know leave their daughter in the care of two friends while going on missions? Trying to apply what usually happens in the real world to what happens in Final Fantasy VII is futile.

Dunsparce said:
They're also contextually implied to sleep in the same room, if not the same bed. And just because we never see them do anything 'romantic', doesn't mean they don't do anything romantic. It'd be kind of out of place for the story to take a pause for a Cloud/Tifa makeout session, wouldn't ya think?
Why do I keep hearing the same old argument that the reason there is no romantic Cloti scenes is because it would be "inappropriate". In Final Fantasy VII, there are tons of scenes that focus on romance but have little relevance to the main narrative. If Cloud and Tifa were a romantic couple, SE would have shown us by now. The fact is, SE has shown us nothing after the HAHW scene that establishes Cloud and Tifa as a romantic couple. In fact, Nomura says quite the opposite.

Dunsparce said:
Nojima quote, Cloud saying he has Tifa in a different way from before, and Cid and Barret talking about them in the context of a romantic relationship, to name a few.
Please provide these quotes. Also, Cloud saying he has Tifa in a different way from before could mean many things, such as the mutual understanding that they reached during the lifestream event.

Dunsparce said:
What proof do you have for Cloud and Aerith? I gave my proof for Cloud and Tifa above, now give me evidence for Cloud and Aerith.
I'm not arguing that Clerith is canon, therefore I'm not held to the same standard of proof that you are. But I've already listed my reasons for why Clerith is a valid pairing in my previous posts.

Dunsparce said:
But...

What do you mean? Explain.
(Some) Cloti's act as though Cloud and Tifa went out and bought a new house together with just each other. The reality is that Cloud, Tifa, *AND* Barret decided to form a family together and return to what has always been home-base for those that reside in Midgar (Seventh Heaven). Cloud and Tifa living together in what has always been home-base for those that reside in Midgar does not suggest a romantic relationship (especially when Cloud has a bed in his room).

(Some) Cloti's also act as though Cloud and Tifa bought a house together and had two children together. But when you actually look at *WHERE* Cloud and Tifa live and *WHICH* children they are raising, the picture painted is much different than the oversimplification that (some) Cloit's want us to believe.

Dunsparce said:
I'd hardly call that a bed. It's moar of a cot, and that's not his room, it's his office. Cloud and Tifa have strong contextual implications of sleeping in the same room in Episode Tifa.
It doesn't matter if it's a cot, bed, or sleeping bag. There's a designated place to sleep in Cloud's personal room. Period.

Dunsparce said:
Barret left before Denzel even moved in. Barret is never called a part of the 7th Heaven family.
Prove that Marlene belongs to two families, then.

SE includes Barret in the formation and creation of the family in Edge:
“Yeah, let’s go home” Cloud agreed.
“Where to?” Barret asked.
“Our suspended reality.”
“What the hell do you mean by that?”
“Our normal lives.”
“And where do we have something like that?”
“We’ll find one.”
Cloud looked at Tifa and said, “Right?”
“Yeah!” cried the cheerful Marlene. Tifa nodded too, but just like Barret, she wondered where they had a normal life. ~CoT

SE includes Barret in the family in this quote:
"Upon finding out that Edge was under attack during the midst of his travels, he rushed over towards the crisis faced by his family and companions." ~Barret Wallace's Character Profile

SE includes Barret in the family in this quote:
“I’ll take care of Cloud and Tifa!”
Barret turned round and shouted, “Do your best!” His voice was a little shaky. “Unite the family’s strength and keep at it!” ~CoT

In fact, Marlene INVITES Cloud into her family:
“A family.” (Tifa)
“Yeah.” (Marlene)
Marlene cheerfully answered in response to Tifa’s murmur.
“I’ll put Cloud in our family too.” (Marlene)
“I appreciate that.” (Cloud) ~Revised CoT

Dunsparce said:
Prove it.
Prove that the family formed was not from a romantic place?

Uhh...well, Barret was involved in the formation of the family. Marlene is Barret's daughter, and Cloud believes Denzel was brought to him by Aerith.

It's not as though Marlene is Cloud and Tifa's love child, nor did Cloud and Tifa go to an adoption agency together and adopt Denzel. It's also not the case that Cloud and Tifa bought a house together with a white picket fence.

Dunsparce said:
Quote is old and contradicted by a later Nomura quote.
If you are referring to Nomura's "truth" quote, well, why can't the truth be that Cloud and Tifa aren't in a romantic relationship? Everything we see in AC surely suggests that's the case. Furthermore, those two Nomura quotes are referring to two different points in time.

Dunsparce said:
And this is evidence of them not being in a romantic relationship because...? Seriously, these are things that are normal of a romantic relationship going through issues.
And 50% of romantic relationships end in divorce because of the reasons Cloud and Tifa are going through. To me, it seems that whatever romantic feelings were expressed in the HAHW scene did not manifest into a permanent romantic relationship.

Dunsparce said:
First of all, I doubt Tifa still considers Aerith a love rival at that point, especially since Aerith is FUCKING DEAD and Tifa's already with Cloud. Second of all, you're assuming Tifa is jealous but provide no evidence to support this claim. Lastly, Cloud's statement about meeting someone is very ambiguous as to what Cloud is talking about meeting, and Tifa's the one who expresses the desire to meet, Cloud merely states he thinks they could meet whatever it is he's talking about. Though Aerith admittedly is the most likely thing he's talking about, he's hardly talking in a romantic context. If you look into the context of the scene you'd realize he's talking about getting an answer from the planet about something, most likely the fate of humanity. And I will reiterate, it is Tifa who expresses the desire to meet whatever Cloud is talking about.
If you look at the context of the quote, it is in the same passage that talks about Tifa letting her "peevish" feelings slip when she sees the "world" Cloud and Aerith were forming together. Given the context of the quote, it is clear that SE is telling us that although Tifa doesn't hate Aerith as a person, she does get jealous over the romantic relationship Cloud and Aerith share in both Final Fantasy VII and Advent Children.

Dunsparce said:
And? It's not like being lovers would negate their status as childhood friends. And not to mention said relationship charts neglect to mention Cloud and Aerith as romantic partners or lovers, or even former lovers.
You are correct. The relationship charts prove that neither pairing is canon.

Dunsparce said:
No, all of these "reasons" make it clear you have no idea how a logical argument works and fail to understand context clues and literary analysis.

*waits for BlankBeat's inevitable rehash of previous arguments*
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K3DeCLPwxXI

"Well that hurts my feelings, but I'll try to go on..." -HRC

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Minato Arisato said:
You've quoted Maiden of Who Travels the Planet three times now. You know it's not canon right?
lol

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Quexinos said:
But seriously BlankBeat, I think it's cool that you come here to take everyone on, but all you've been doing is copy pasting essays from other websites. People have responded to some of your posts but you don't respond to them. You just c/p another essay. You should at least respond to those people, when you just c/p stuff that's pretty much unrelated to what we're talking about, it makes it look like you don't have any retorts for our points.
Why do you have such a double standard?

Strangelove hasn't responded to this post of mine.

Ryu hasn't responded to this post of mine.

Oh and YOU haven't responded to this post of mine, either.

I honestly DON'T CARE if people respond to me or not. But for you to continually say I haven't responded to each and every post (you've made similar comments in the past) just shows your bias and that you hold me to a higher standard because of your *DOUBLE* standard.
 
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Dashell

SMILE!
AKA
Sonique, Quexinos, Pinkie Pie, Derpy Hooves
Why do you have such a double standard?
Because all those points have been addressed already... I didn't see the point :(

EDIT
wait I thought I did respond to that. I told you the difference was that Cloud and Tifa were said to be living together because of the feelings they shared, said that it doesn't matter if Barret's in the family, the bed in Cloud's "room" has been addressed a multitude of times, I asked you what you think happened in the Highwind scene, the "I don't know" thing has been talked about a billion times, ..

what DIDN'T I or someone else respond to?

It's still fanfiction though, which inherently means it's not canon. This is something I genuinely don't understand. I get that it's published in an official source but that doesn't magically make it canon when it clearly says it's fanfic.
Is this common practice? To publish non canon fanfiction in an official source without any indication that that's all it is? you'd think they would have put a disclaimer in there or something.


But wow Square sure has some weird tatcis... "But this piece of fanfiction in an official source, release it without saying it's just fanfiction... and those guys will figure it out I'm sure." fuck they're stupid :awesome:
 

Geostigma

Pro Adventurer
AKA
gabe
Is this common practice? To publish non canon fanfiction in an official source without any indication that that's all it is? you'd think they would have put a disclaimer in there or something.

Its actually extremely common lol.
 

Lex

Administrator
Because all those points have been addressed already... I didn't see the point :(


Is this common practice? To publish non canon fanfiction in an official source without any indication that that's all it is? you'd think they would have put a disclaimer in there or something.


But wow Square sure has some weird tatcis... "But this piece of fanfiction in an official source, release it without saying it's just fanfiction... and those guys will figure it out I'm sure." fuck they're stupid :awesome:

Right, enough with the sarcasm. I'm asking because our site says it's not canon, and I want to know whether it is or not because it's my responsibility to make sure non-opinion pieces/ pages published here are factually accurate.

I'm asking for proof in either direction. If it's officially considered fanfiction because it was written by someone that doesn't have creative control over the FFVII story, then it is fanfiction and not canon. Is this the case or not?
 
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