As I've said multiple times: the LTD revolves around the question, "Who does Cloud Strife love?"
This is just something you've decided arbitrarily. I think, to a reasonable people, if you were to be discussing a love triangle you would be looking to find out how it ends.
Therefore, it is irrelevant that Cloud and Tifa express mutual feelings. It is obvious that Cloud loves both Aerith and Tifa, therefore both parings are canon. I don't see why this website makes the claim that Cloti is canon simply because Cloud and Tifa EXPRESS mutual feelings.
Because some people here (because no everyone cares) looked at the big picture and drew that conclusion.
I'm only agreeing with Nomura -- expressing mutual feelings does not necessarily mean a romantic relationship exists between Cloud and Tifa.
No, you're putting words in Nomura's mouth (like you rewrote quotes from the game to suit what you want it to say). He said he doesn't care about romantic relationships because characters. It was two sentences above the quote you tried to use. (But I understand not knowing, since all people do is take one little line from something and spread it around then mislabel it.)
Typically, romantic relationships begin with physical attraction and a butterfly feeling. So my point is that Cloud finding Aerith physically attractive and leaving their initial meeting with a, "mysterious feeling", lays the foundation for a romantic relationship between them.
I don't disagree with Cloud being attracted to Aerith. I just don't agree that it got a chance to lead anywhere (no searching flower fields for Aerith physically manifesting and no soul bonding or anything like that).
Furthermore, given that Cloud "wavers" between Aerith and Tifa, it is clear that the "special bond" Cloud and Aerith have is romantic in nature. In addition, the "special bond" Cloud develops with Aerith is compared directly to Tifa's bond with Cloud (ie: Cloud's other love interest). Seriously...why would SE have Tifa (Cloud's other love interest) show jealousy over Cloud and Aerith's "special bond"?
Why would you write this reply to my post? I agreed with this.
To me, the point of including the flashback was to show that although Cloud was not interested in having an older girlfriend in the past, with the introduction of Aerith, Cloud may start to feel differently. It was an obvious juxtaposition between the past and present.
It doesn't really indicate that there has been a change.
But to illustrate my point, in my opinion you can read the passage in OtWtaS where Cloud answers Tifa's question about loving Marlene but not knowing how to relate to her as referring to his relationship with Tifa as well. That would be subtext (if you can be subtext when Tifa directly brings up their relationship afterwards). That makes stories more interesting.
But I've seen that scene taken as plain old rejection because Cloud doesn't speak or something.
How does that moment *NOT* put romantic relationships at the forefront of the story?
And I'd argue that it is very intimate. Them sitting together, side-by-side.
It lasts seconds and is then put aside for the Wallmarket side quest. Forefront? That makes it sound like it takes a major focus at that point. It doesn't, and a lot of it was about Zack. Aerith was about to leave at that point, without sounding like she thought she would meet Cloud again (she said it was nice to meet him, no 'see you soon' or even a request to). If it hadn't have been for Tifa appearing she would have gone home and Cloud would have gone to Seventh Heaven. That's not something that sounds like the 'forefront of the story'. It might bring it up, but it's not at the forefront when the next part of the story immediately following involves going to rescue Tifa and then stop the plate from being dropped on sector 7.
You'd argue it is intimate, of course. But that's your spin on it, in your list that's meant to be hard cold fact. Again, it's your choice of words to put things in a light that suits what you want it mean.
During the first bombing mission, Cloud acts very disinterested in everything but himself. Until Aerith is introduced, Cloud seems very selfish, self-centered, and cold. The fact that Barret observes a change in Cloud's behavior after Aerith is introduced is significant, IMO. It is also worth noting that SE decided to draw attention to this change in Cloud through Barret.
That doesn't mean Cloud changed. Barret re-evaluated his take on Cloud.
Again, you also changed the wording to suit your needs. He said that Cloud will sometimes 'fight for other people'. That isn't the same as 'Aerith is the first person he cared about'. Is it really so difficult to just use the words that were actually used? That's usually a good way to back up things like this.
The fact that Aerith was able to evoke this behavior while Cloud was under Jenova's control makes it all the more significant. But I agree with you, Cloud is caring person who is willing to risk his life to save others. That's why Aerith and Cloud's bond is so special -- she was the only one able to show us the 'real' Cloud at a time when he was under Jenova's control.
Priscilla happened during that point as well.
Huh? I simply said that Cloud said he will always be there for Aerith in Cosmo Canyon. You are the one who is twisting MY words.
Okay, clearly you don't pick up on when things are being exaggerated. But that's not what Cloud says.
“But I'm…we're here for you, right?”
That's the line in the game. But you took that and made it into "I will always be there for you" instead. Because it sounds better for your purpose. You twisted the game's dialogue into something else.
But Cloud agreed to go on this date when he first met Aerith. That, by itself, shows romantic attraction.
They go on a date. Where Cloud makes no statement of any kind about his feelings for Aerith. The date itself (in any version) wasn't showing much romantic intention from Cloud.
The argument about Cait Sith’s prediction should not revolve around how reliable he is.
You're doing it again. You're replying to something with a completely unrelated tangent. It's like you had an answer all written out before and are just posting it without bothering to think if it applies here. (I don't know if you are copy-pasting this from somewhere.)
It's not about Cait Sith being unreliable, that's not what I was talking about. It's about the 'wedding prediction' translation being faulty. Why did you think I brought translations to the forefront of the discussion?
クラウドとエアリスの結婚式を期待するようなケット・シーのセリフが、ますますせつなさをかき立てる。
That doesn't say he 'predicts' a wedding. It says his dialogue seems to expect or hope for Cloud and Aerith's wedding.
クラウドとエアリスの結婚式 - wedding ceremony of Cloud and Aerith
～を期待する - to expect/hope for ~
That's not a prediction. It doesn't say prediction at all. That's what I was talking about. You're calling it a 'prediction' when it doesn't say that in the original text.
SE could have had Aerith ask Cait Sith about her future and Cait Sith could have said, “You will have a bright future full of many happy times!” — this would have set the player up to get their heart broken when she was killed by Sephiroth.
It doesn't have that effect the way it is? The point is that he says things will be wonderful for them, but then Aerith dies and Cloud loses his mind.
So given the context of the game and how things were progressing between Cloud and Aerith, it is obvious why SE included this wedding prediction — so the gamer would have the idea in their head that Cloud and Aerith had the possibility of sharing a romantic future together, which would then be destroyed by the hands of the evil Sephiroth.
Right.
Sooooo? It's still not called a 'prediction', and that future never happens.
Unless, as the Ultimania says but no one ever quotes, you take 'future' from a different angle you might find some hope in it. (The Japanese line is 「エアリスさんの星とクラウドさんの星！ すてきな未来が約束されてます！」 which you could read two ways: Aerith's star and Cloud's star promise them a great future; or that Aerith and Cloud's 'star' [the planet] is promised a great future.)
One of the biggest reasons Aerith’s death is so sad is because she wasn’t just a friend to Cloud.
That sounds horribly dismissive as to how much a mere 'friend' can mean to people.
Aerith had a possible romantic future with Cloud, which is exactly what SE wanted us to think, so that when they killed her, it was that much more painful and heartbreaking for those of us playing the game.
What they
wanted you to think. Not what eventually happens.
Luckily, their love transcends traditional barriers and continues in the spiritual world.
And you lost me again.
Furthermore, SE refers to this prediction as a wedding prediction. Why would they refer to it as a wedding prediction if it was not meant to highlight the romantic connection Cloud and Aerith have in the game?
Because you're using a translation from someone who said that Cait Sith predicted the future with 'tickets' and had the Ultimania writers write that his name isn't 'Dotty'--which no one, ever, anywhere ever said.
Cloud says he HE thinks he can meet Aerith in the Promised Land. Tifa inserts herself, and Cloud never agrees with Tifa that she should go too. Cloud is associating his place of supreme happiness with Aerith.
The bigger picture. Look at it.
This is a work of fiction. Someone had to create every part of it, and usually for a reason.
This is the end of this particular work of fiction. The end. There were no sequels back then, this was it. The story's final.
So in the final climactic moments of the story, they have Cloud state his intention to be with his true love...... and Tifa decides to tag along. No, not Tifa. The people writing it decided that the way to end this love story was to have the other woman invite herself along. No comment or objection from Cloud. Nothing.
That is awful writing. Where you are meant to bring things to a close, you have just made a pig's ear of the whole thing. It makes absolutely no sense. Is this meant to be a tragic end for Tifa? Can you honestly look at what you just wrote and think it sounds write? That the closure of Tifa's story is that she is a pathetic character clinging on to Cloud even as he reveals his desire to go to another woman? Having you actually given the notion you're pushing any thought at all?
(And what is your point for saying Cloud wants to see Aerith in his place of supreme happiness? Does that not mean that he 'chooses' Aerith? How does that jell with your statement that both couples are canon? They are both canon but he picks one over the other?)
Tifa's jealously gives us insight into the reasons Cloud may be visiting Aerith's Church.
It might. But it's still only from Tifa's perspective, not Cloud's. Not about who Cloud loves. All we get from Cloud is 'I can't protect anyone, I let you die, I want to be forgiven'.
Go check. Those are the actual lines actually used in the actual film that actually exists. I didn't rewrite them or anything.
Actually, Nomura and other sources have said what his problem was. It was that he was happy with his life, but grew to fear that he would lose it. That's why he left.
LTD question: Who does Cloud love?
SE provides "koibito" quotes for both pairings. Both pairings are canon.
Do you know the meaning and usage of 'koibito'? Not the LTD one, the real one.
It refers to the other person. When used in OtWtaS, it was from the woman to Cloud. In Nomura's quote, it from someone unspecified to Tifa. That means it's someone's feelings of love for Tifa.
(Hint: It's Cloud. Because Rude/Johnny/random barflies/'she's just a really nice person!' don't make sense.)
Anyone who denies that the FFIX cameo of Cloud x Aerith is not romantic is seriously denying common sense. Not even worth a rebuttal.
Common sense, of course, from the one who just suggested that Square ended FFVII with Tifa being a creepy stalker who butts her way into Cloud's romantic adventures.
The Ultimania Omega mentions that the 'Ancient's Key' is an item in FFXI. It tells you that there is a little picture of Cloud and Aerith in one of Parasite Eve's backgrounds. It tells you that there are characters named after Cloud, Squall, and Zidane in Crystal Chronicles. It tells you that a sprite of Cloud appears on the menu of the PS1 version of FFV. That there's a 'Cloud's Shop' in FFVIII. It tells you there is an treasure called 'Materia' in FFT. It tells you there is a poster of Bahamut Lagoon in FFVII, a reference to Xenogears in Cloud's Mideel dialogue, and that the name of a kingdom from Chrono Trigger appears in the Gold Saucer play.
It mentions all these things, but in its section for FFVII, it doesn't mention this cameo reference to two of FFVII's major characters. It mentions Zidane talking about a spiky haired guy when looking at a large sword, and it mentions the Rufus' Welcoming Ceremony track being played. But not this? Why? What's the deal here? They mention the cameo in FFT, but not this? What is the difference in this case?
All I was saying is that people in Japanese don't seem to view this in this way. That despite the amount of useless trivia they have decided to publish, they didn't think that this was worth pointing out? That no Japanese fans seem to have gone online and said 'look at this cute C/A reference in FFIX'? In the thousands of forum threads and websites and blogs? No one at all? Why is this solely limited to the Western world?
The "wavers" quote proves that Cloud and Aerith's "special bond" that Tifa is jealous of is romantic.
I don't really believe that your stance is 'both are canon' when you find a dozen ways to dismiss anything that supports Cloud/Tifa. This quote supports the stance you claim to have, but not the stance you seem to be acting from (which is that Cloud/Aerith is the intended couple and the one that Square has picked).
The fact that SE made Cloud and Aerith a married couple tells us that they view Cloud and Aerith as a romantic couple.
It is a little spin-off game and 'Emperor and Empress' is a reference to Hinamatsuri, a cultural event that happened when they released it. Just like they pair Zack and Tifa as school kids was a reference to the start of the new school year.
School romances are a common cliche. Hundreds, thousands of shoujo manga books on this theme must fill the shelves of Japanese book stores. All the TV dramas and movies, all the novels. You'd have to be in denial to not admit that. What significance (beyond FFVII being popular) does pairing Tifa and Zack have? What is SE trying to say with that choice? That's they're just side characters relegated to getting the scrap roles not fit for Emperors and Empresses?
Actually, I'm not going to go on about this. I don't feel like talking about a storyless cameo in a spin-off game I never played. Tifa and Aerith later appeared together in bikinis. What's the meaning behind that?
But if the HAHW scene is somehow proof-positive that Cloud and Tifa are in a romantic relationship, it really wouldn't make sense for Nomura to say he doesn't care if the answer was already determined from the HAHW scene.
Not caring about 'who dates who' means you don't care who is dating who. Even if they are.
Because these things were an unknown at one point, and Nomura likes to leave blanks so people can fill them in themselves. He says so in that quote. The part you didn't include.
But that was from 8 years ago. There's been a lot of stuff since then. Maybe his opinion is different. Has anyone asked him about it recently?
The HAHW scene does not give Nomura any clue if Cloud and Tifa are in a relationship two years after FFVII ended.
jfc
You're using a quote in your signature that was literally translated from Japanese in a way that makes it sound very romantic. In a way that isn't really implied in the Japanese idiom, which Square themselves translated correctly as 'never forget' or something.
But you're using the one that makes it sound more romantic, because that's what you want. You want things that make your chosen side (because for all this 'both are canon' stuff, you have a side you're trying to prove) sound better. You're picking one translation, an inaccurate one, over another because that incorrect one works in your favour.
Which I assume is why you ignore when anything else is presented that counters it, or you just don't update wherever you copy-paste your responses from.
But why don't we take a look at the... big picture for a second.
- Cloud and Tifa 'confess mutual feelings'. (Confessions of love are a big part of Japanese romance.)
- Cloud and Tifa start to live together, along with their friend Barret who has a young daughter and nowhere else to go.
- Barret eventually leaves, and Marlene stays with Tifa and Cloud. Later Denzel joins them.
- Tifa and Cloud have some troubles and he distances himself from everyone and contracts a fatal disease which he hides from his 'family'. This is what is known as 'conflict', and it is something that happens in dramatic fiction.
- Cloud leaves home, because while he was happy it only made his fears about something terrible happening worse.
- Cloud eventually overcomes his problems, and returns home a stronger man. He sees the two people he felt he let down smiling at him, before walking away into a white light. This is a 'resolution'.
As opposed to:
- Cloud and Tifa confess their feelings for each other, then Cloud states that he wants to be with Aerith in his own land of supreme happiness. Tifa tags along for some reason. This is 'really confusing'.
- Cloud quickly abandons his plans to look for Aerith and starts living with Tifa in the completely impersonal homebase of AVALANCHE, despite having only just confessed his feelings for her then unceremoniously dumping her right when they were possibly about to die. This is 'a bit of a dick move on Cloud's part'.
- At some point during this cohabitation, Cloud decides to resume his search for a means to meet Aerith. This is shown to the audience by showing absolutely nothing to suggest that he is doing this. Also he gets sick and that means he leaves because he would rather spend time where he gets to be reminded of past failures for... comfort?
- Tifa is sad because the man that rejected her while they were at death's door is now gone and she no longer has anyone to ask if they love her.
- Stuff happens and apparently Aerith moves into Cloud at some point during the Kadaj/Sephiroth business because she clearly wasn't there before. Unless you accept the reasoning people used to use like 'his guilt was too strong to let him see her', which doesn't really make sense seeing as he see her during the film when he's arguably at the height of emotional suffering.
- Cloud wins the day, and is reunited with Aerith. This is shown by the classic cinematic language of 'showing the dead people walking away from the living characters into a ghostly white light'. Used in all the greatest and highly respected films like maybe Ghostbusters? I can't remember.
- Cloud then returns to live with Tifa, because there is no better way to celebrate being reunited with the love of your life who's dead than by living with the woman you jilted moments before potential death. Rock on, Cloud, you're totally not a scumbag like Zack!
