The Love Triangle Debate thread of KNEEL BEFORE ZOD OR SUFFER HIS WRATH (ignore the opening posts at your peril) (Round 6)

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Goodbye Charlie

Rising Chest-Bank Protestor
I think what's really insulting about your posts, and this happens EVERYTIME someone comes on here with an agenda, is that they point blank ignore all the rebuttals, and then post their list of facts including all those aspects which have been contested and easily dismissed.

But in on the upside, you are still clinging to the same slithers of ideas you can push together as facts. Barret's observation isn't about romance, never was, smiling doesn't mean anything. The audience are meant to THINK that Aeris and Cloud are blossoming towards romance, unaware that because Cloud isn't Cloud, is character will take a U-Turn by the final act. The wedding comment, Marlene's comment, even his Mother's comments are there to trick the viewer not to inform on story. None of these does Cloud ever concede to. They're observations to build up deceit.

HOWEVER you want to play it, Cloud on disk one is ill. He is not himself. That is explicit. HOWEVER you want to play it, Aeris is still in love with Zack - that's pretty damn clear in Maiden (as it had to be to retcon for CC), it is inferred in the closure of Advent Children, and as with "romance story", the lovers who start are those who end. The two are seen leaving the franchise together, and you don't play a whole game.

HOWEVER you want to play it, smiling doesn't infer love, it merely suggests someone not feeling strained. HOWEVER you want to play it, Case of Tifa and all the reference books tell you (if you're too blind to see it anyhow), that Cloud got together with Tifa and lived fairly happily till geostigma and guilt for his failures of Zack and Aeris hit.

The joke you don't seem to see, is if "Cloti" wanted to cherry pick like you do (and I've seen them do it), they can, sad thing is for you, they are lucky that their "ship" is supported by narrative fact. I'm amazed I've not seen more. Maybe its because they've done this LTD game far too much and can't be bothered. I've seen Ryu hurl facts like shurikens n his time.

For me, everything you throw up can be knocked back without a single line or quote, because none of it works with the narrative flow, content or logic of the Compilation, so why bother. You try making Aeris more important to Cloud than Tifa, you dilute or confuse Disk 3, Crisis Core, the Smile Novellas and Advent Children.

My bottomline I'll bold, as its important. Don't get fixated on spoken words and quotes. What people say isn't as important as people do. Cloud went and had a romantic life with Tifa (case of tifa and advent children) after a romantic night under the Highwind (as clarified in various text for the blind). Those are actions, not inferences. If a smile was, I'd be Playboy of the Gods by now.
 

Dashell

SMILE!
AKA
Sonique, Quexinos, Pinkie Pie, Derpy Hooves
What about Barret saying Tifa wears the pants?... that's an observation from the almighty Barret, right?... does that... mean something?

I kinda got lost here with all this Brigade stuff
 

Danseru-kun

Pro Adventurer
What about Barret saying Tifa wears the pants?... that's an observation from the almighty Barret, right?... does that... mean something?

I kinda got lost here with all this Brigade stuff

it just says she wears the pants it doesn't mean anything

...unless it's Cloud's pants :awesome:
 

BlankBeat

Pro Adventurer
Danseru-kun,

I take it you are willing to concede that 4 of your 6 reasons showing Cloud cares for Tifa during disc 1 are optional? In fact, not only are 4 of the 6 optional, but some of them don't even tell us how Cloud, himself, feels.

And because this quote has been used several times to prove Cloud cared for Tifa during disc 1:
"Cloud: ……….You worry about yourselves! I’m all right, but take care of Tifa!"
I'd just like to point out that this is an optional piece of dialogue. But if you can show me where this is the canon outcome, I'd be happy to read it.

As for Cloud reusing Tifa, well, it is clear based on the scrip that Cloud only decided to enter Don's mansion because he wasn't going to let Aerith, "go alone." Those are Cloud's words, not mine.

Oh and since you've pointed out that Barret's observation is optional, I'd like to direct you to this passage in Dismantled:
Barret: Oouuuch!! The muscles on my feet have stretched to the fullest.
The idea of taking the stairs for 59 floors because the guards there are scarce is a big mistake! Maybe it’s easier if we just raid on the building and smash the enemy right in front….Tsk! Am I this old?

Anyway, after we reached the 60th floor, the guard security seemed to get loose. They had never expected that we’d be able to break through and came here…those carefree fools.

There’re some staffs murmured cuz I don’t look like any one of them. But little doubts didn’t make them cry for alert. Here we met the mayor of Midgar for the first time, and the feeling was still bad.

Seriously, he’s just a dummy administrator who takes care of all sorts of data. He was very discontent with Shinra, so we got the cardkey without much effort. That’s why I can take a break in this rest room…..

Erm, Tifa, can I ask for…. a little massage on my legs? Ah, she left already?"
~Dismantled, Page 146

Therefore, this conversation takes place in the stairwell:
Cloud: I didn't want to start a ruckus till we saved Aerith. I should have known that was impossible though…

Barret: Heh, heh, heh.

Cloud: What is it? You're givin' me the willies.

Barret: So there are times when even you fight for other people. I am impressed.

--------------------
But in on the upside, you are still clinging to the same slithers of ideas you can push together as facts. Barret's observation isn't about romance, never was, smiling doesn't mean anything. The audience are meant to THINK that Aeris and Cloud are blossoming towards romance, unaware that because Cloud isn't Cloud, is character will take a U-Turn by the final act. The wedding comment, Marlene's comment, even his Mother's comments are there to trick the viewer not to inform on story. None of these does Cloud ever concede to. They're observations to build up deceit.
1. How is Cloud's comment to Marlene meant to build up deceit? When Marlene tells Cloud Aerith likes him, Cloud responds, "Let’s hope so". Cloud saying, "Let's hope so," tells us that Cloud would like there to be a mutual romantic relationship between him and Aerith. These are Cloud's own words.

2. If Cloud did not love Aerith, how could a wedding prediction become "more painful" after her death? The only way a wedding prediction would become "more painful" is if there was a basis for which a wedding could happen (ie: mutual romance).

3. You are forgetting this quote: "And having two heroines, Aerith and Tifa, and having the hero waver between them, at the time that was something new.” ~Interview with the creators, pg. 8-13, 10th Anniversary Ultimania

This quote tells us that Cloud wavered between Aerith and Tifa -- which means that his relationship with both women was more than a friendship. The only way Cloud could "waver" to Aerith is if he was romantically interested in her.

4. How does Cloud agreeing to go on a date with Aerith build up deceit? It makes perfect sense that Cloud would want to date a girl he finds physically attractive.

5. When SE says that Aerith had, "built up a special bond with Cloud that was different from Tifa's," it's not saying that one relationship is romantic and the other isn't. It's saying that although both relationships are romantic, Tifa wishes she had a romantic bond with Cloud that was similar to his romantic bond with Aerith. I'd imagine this means Tifa wishes her romantic relationship with Cloud was more flirtatious, open, and forward.

6. Cloud was triggered into a romantic flashback in Aerith's house after meeting her. Was this a clue from SE that with the introduction of Aerith, Cloud could be changing his mind about the idea of having an older girlfriend? What else could have triggered Cloud into this flashback aside from Cloud's romantic infatuation with Aerith?

7. "There’s no relationship from FFVII to the Kingdom Hearts stories. I consider them separate stories. But if you play Kingdom Hearts, toward the end, some of the questions about the relationship between Cloud and Aeris in Final Fantasy VII might be answered.” ~Nomura, Square Enix

Nomura specifically says that although the two universes of Kingdom Hearts and FFVII are separate, the Kingdom Hearts universe might help answer questions about the relationship between Cloud and Aerith as it pertains to Final Fantasy VII’s universe.

So what does this ending of Kingdom Hearts tell us about the nature of Cloud and Aerith's relationship in Final Fantasy VII?

I don't think it's that hard to figure out what Nomura meant by his statement.

HOWEVER you want to play it, Cloud on disk one is ill. He is not himself. That is explicit.
So what? Cloud and Aerith's bond is based on a time when Cloud was ill. And since Cloud continues to feel a strong bond with Aerith after he gets better, what differences does it make that Cloud was ill on disc 1?

Maybe someone else can phrase what I mean better...

HOWEVER you want to play it, smiling doesn't infer love, it merely suggests someone not feeling strained.
I use Cloud's attraction to Aerith's appearance and the laughter she evoked from him as a basis for which I saw their romantic connection begin and grow.

My bottomline I'll bold, as its important. Don't get fixated on spoken words and quotes. What people say isn't as important as people do. Cloud went and had a romantic life with Tifa (case of tifa and advent children) after a romantic night under the Highwind (as clarified in various text for the blind). Those are actions, not inferences. If a smile was, I'd be Playboy of the Gods by now.
Yes, Cloud continued his life after Aerith's death.

But there is not one signal piece of romantic evidence between Cloud and Tifa after the Highwind scene. There is only circumstantial evidence that is not explicitly romantic.

--Tifa admits to not knowing if Cloud loves her. I'd say that is evidence that their mutual feelings did not turn into a long-lasting romantic relationship.

--Cloud has a bed in his room. I'd say that is evidence that Cloud and Tifa are not living like a typical romantic couple.

--Cloud and Tifa's family includes Barret and Barret's daughter, Marlene. I'd say that is evidence that their family was not formed out of their romantic bond but instead circumstances outside of their control.

I could go on, but I'm sure you've heard all my reasons before. The point is -- there is no wedding between Cloud and Tifa. There is no kiss. There is nothing that is explicitly romantic between them after the HAHW scene. There is only circumstantial evidence that doesn't prove anything.

Expressing mutual feelings =/= romantic relationship begins/exists/lasts forever. The burden of proof is on you guys to substantiate your claim that they are in a romantic relationship.
 
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Danseru-kun

Pro Adventurer
Danseru-kun,

I take it you are willing to concede that 4 of your 6 reasons showing Cloud cares for Tifa during disc 1 are optional?
In fact, not only are 4 of the 6 optional, but some of them don't even tell us how Cloud, himself, feels.

And because this quote has been used several times to prove Cloud cared for Tifa during disc 1:

I'd just like to point out that this is an optional piece of dialogue. But if you can show me where this is the canon outcome, I'd be happy to read it.

As long as you concede Barret's observation is also optional why not? Ah yess Dismantled. Fine fine it's canon for you.

And I still have four right? And there's Aerith's observation too :aeriball:

Edit: I'm not gonna drag on this debate Blankbeat. Hito already explained why Barret's line can be simply friendship between Cloud and Barret... and it doesn't even tell what Cloud feel either :/ You debate the good arguments already laid out, I cannot add more to them.

Cloud does care about Tifa because he rescued her from Don Corneo, and I see no reason why you are rejecting this. It doesn't prove Cloud loves Aerith because Cloud caring for Tifa and Cloud loving Aerith are not mutually exclusive.
 
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Octo

KULT OF KERMITU
AKA
Octo, Octorawk, Clarky Cat, Kissmammal2000
Theres no way to prove Cloud wasn't just going to let Tifa get left to the Don and his henchmen as a human fleshlight.

........

It's all so clear now, everything Cloud did was to get into Aerith's pants and forget everyone else. Then she dies and he has a raging boner so has a go on Tifa but it's not enough. He spends the next few years moping about until he meets Aerith in the spirit world and then 'smiles' because he can go and have spirit sex whenever he wants and all the while Tifa will cook and do his laundry because shes such a sap. Pretty sweet deal.

And thats all the story of FFVII folks :monster:
 

Danseru-kun

Pro Adventurer
Thinking of it, even if Cloud indeed doesn't care about anyone until he met Aerith, it still doesn't prove he loves her romantically.

And we can also sake Illusion!Cloud doesn't care about Tifa, but real Cloud does, so much he would go to great lengths to fulfill his promise. In Dissidia he dies for her sake.
 

Morana

Pro Adventurer
Thinking of it, even if Cloud indeed doesn't care about anyone until he met Aerith, it still doesn't prove he loves her romantically.

And we can also sake Illusion!Cloud doesn't care about Tifa, but real Cloud does, so much he would go to great lengths to fulfill his promise. In Dissidia he dies for her sake.

In my opinion, a person who doesn't care about anyone (not even about their friends) isn't really capable of loving someone at all.
 

Selphie Tilmitt

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Maidenofwar
About the Emperor/Empress dolls if I remember right in the magazine the scans were taken from the dolls are described as Mr@Ms/Mrs Dolls as well :) Anyway they were released for that holiday, the one where the people make tiers with dolls and the Emperor/Empress go at the top of the tree/family (:shifty:) I'd be less inclined to put any emphasis on it if they hadn't also released Rinoa in a wedding dress (western style) soon after :P

Seriously though IDK ... Cloti and Zerith have cameos there too now? Also FFXIV but Lex :arr:

Say: Cloud Strife: Never mind...

Yell: Cloud Strife: Aeriiiiiith!

Shout: Cloud Strife: Can someone give me some gil?

Tell: >> Cloud Strife: Nice shirt.
Tifa Lockhart >> Eyes up here, Cloud.

Party: (Cloud Strife) Where is everybody?

FC: [FC]<Cloud Strife> Can I invite my friend, Zack?

LS: <Cloud Strife> Do I have time to grab my gunblade?

Emote: Cloud Strife points at Bayohne.
Custom: Cloud Strife wallows in self-pity...

Why can't we just enjoy these things?
:kittyhug:
They all have cameos yaay?~
 

Goodbye Charlie

Rising Chest-Bank Protestor
1. How is Cloud's comment to Marlene meant to build up deceit? When Marlene tells Cloud Aerith likes him, Cloud responds, "Let&#8217;s hope so". Cloud saying, "Let's hope so," tells us that Cloud would like there to be a mutual romantic relationship between him and Aerith. These are Cloud's own words.

It builds up the suggestion that they're the game's pairing, while Tifa's reactions and interactions remain true, but knocked back somewhat. Cloud is compelled to save her, Tifa clearly cares for him, but until Disk 3, their true story is a locked secret to be sprung - you are not meant to be aware of Cloud's true feelings. This is where you fall down: Cloud is an obsessive. There's only one girl for him, he's sort of pathetic like that. His whole reason to go to Soldier was to impress one girl, and even after the Lifestream event, that still remains.

And here's the kicker, by trying to beef up his interest in Aeris, you make it superficial, because Cloud's instant jump into Tifa's pants in disk 3 would instantly disgrace such love. His interest in Aeris is confused, because he's confused. It's not love. There's most likely attraction, but he's a man with partial amnesia and personality crisis. You can't pick through disk one for evidence of Cloud's feelings - only what's said in disk 3 and onwards is evidence.

2. If Cloud did not love Aerith, how could a wedding prediction become "more painful" after her death? The only way a wedding prediction would become "more painful" is if there was a basis for which a wedding could happen (ie: mutual romance).

Again, what's the point in debating if you just ignore people's points. It's a brutal pain. A prediction of an open romantic future slain by the next act, slain in part by the man controlling Cloud. Take yourself out of the romance box and put yourself in Cloud's position - how is such an act, an act you feel culpable for, NOT painful?

3. You are forgetting this quote: "And having two heroines, Aerith and Tifa, and having the hero waver between them, at the time that was something new.&#8221; ~Interview with the creators, pg. 8-13, 10th Anniversary Ultimania

This quote tells us that Cloud wavered between Aerith and Tifa -- which means that his relationship with both women was more than a friendship. The only way Cloud could "waver" to Aerith is if he was romantically interested in her.

He's not talking about narrative, he's talking game logistics. Hence its "something new" as games didn't play optional romances back then. Having a love triangle isn't new to stories, having it as an integral part of the game mechanics is. As I keep saying that's the deceit in the first disk.

4. How does Cloud agreeing to go on a date with Aerith build up deceit? It makes perfect sense that Cloud would want to date a girl he finds physically attractive.

You're missing, intentionally or not, the context. Deceit means it naturally builds the players hopes towards a Cloud and Aeris romance. Now there's a natural inclination for players to prefer Tifa, but I personally don't doubt the game angles the first-time player towards Aeris as its a classic romance story of boy meets girl (Cloud already knows Tifa), but that's because the payoff is the tragedy, and the tragedy works better if the audience is invested. So that's the deceit - narrative mechanics.

That all being said, the date is non romantic, and Cloud is pretty much pulled into it - because he is that very typical teen Japanese hero at the behest of stronger women. This is all very typical. The dates are a source of Japanese humour, not romance.

5. When SE says that Aerith had, "built up a special bond with Cloud that was different from Tifa's," it's not saying that one relationship is romantic and the other isn't. It's saying that although both relationships are romantic, Tifa wishes she had a romantic bond with Cloud that was similar to his romantic bond with Aerith. I'd imagine this means Tifa wishes her romantic relationship with Cloud was more flirtatious, open, and forward.

I see I'm going to have repeat myself again. You've made a massive mis-step in logical there again. It's not saying romance in either category so you're jump to Tifa wanting the same bond as Aeris is nonsensical. It's saying Aeris builds up a special bond to Cloud than he has with Tifa. I have a special bond with girl friends who are going out with a guy. It's different, unique. Doesn't make it more romantic. There is a bond between the two forged, but it isn't romance. You're meant to think it is, that's the deceit, but you later find out that her lover died a tragic death, one that had Cloud adopt his traits, and Cloud himself is in the middle of a breakdown for failing to protect everyone he loved.

6. Cloud was triggered into a romantic flashback in Aerith's house after meeting her. Was this a clue from SE that with the introduction of Aerith, Cloud could be changing his mind about the idea of having an older girlfriend? What else could have triggered Cloud into this flashback aside from Cloud's romantic infatuation with Aerith?

Again. Deceit. Build up to tragedy. You've been told this over and over. Making the audience thing the story is going in one direction but swings massively in the other.

You - and many before you - confuse game mechanics and dramatic twists as literal answers to the goal you desire.

Fact, Tifa and Cloud get intimate under the Highwind. Fact, Cloud and Tifa start a romance after. Fact, if Cloud was massively into Aeris, such actions would make him a bit of a superficial dick. Is that really what you desire? Isn't it better to have Cloud as a man who cares for a friend deeply, a friend who he was most likely attracted to but still nonetheless a friend, a friend he swore to protect, a friend who clearly adored him. A friend he'd have had for life. Isn't that a better situation?

7. "There&#8217;s no relationship from FFVII to the Kingdom Hearts stories. I consider them separate stories. But if you play Kingdom Hearts, toward the end, some of the questions about the relationship between Cloud and Aeris in Final Fantasy VII might be answered.&#8221; ~Nomura, Square Enix

Nomura specifically says that although the two universes of Kingdom Hearts and FFVII are separate, the Kingdom Hearts universe might help answer questions about the relationship between Cloud and Aerith as it pertains to Final Fantasy VII&#8217;s universe.

So what does this ending of Kingdom Hearts tell us about the nature of Cloud and Aerith's relationship in Final Fantasy VII?

If you seriously think you need a bonus game to tell you the answer to a game that gives you ALL the answers, if you think that was really necessary, you need to go back to storytelling 101. If you throw the Aeris KH card out there, people swing the Tifa KH2 card back at you.

Cloud is a Japanese hero, hellbent on two main assets - guardianship of those who loves, and honour as a soldier. With Aeris he failed on both counts - he fails to protect a loved friend, he is part of the force that kills her. That is a massive thing in terms of Japanese heroes, KH to me was about that pain still.

I don't think it's that hard to figure out what Nomura meant by his statement.

And yet you ignore all of Nomura's statements in the rest of the Compilation - especially his actual writings in terms of the Compilation, Cloud and Tifa's romance and the Highwind. Amazing how you focus on one camp that you can interpret as serving your corner, but ignore his writings and intents as a whole in terms of the actual F7 canon...

So what? Cloud and Aerith's bond is based on a time when Cloud was ill. And since Cloud continues to feel a strong bond with Aerith after he gets better, what differences does it make that Cloud was ill on disc 1?

Maybe we need to stop talking. If you don't understand how a man who doesn't know his own past and personality MIGHT affect how he comes across to others as well as his own intentions... then really you've lost the argument there.

I use Cloud's attraction to Aerith's appearance and the laughter she evoked from him as a basis for which I saw their romantic connection begin and grow.

And yet you ignore Tifa and Cloud's copulations and living together as a hint that Cloud's desire for Tifa as a child is realised as SOON as he gets his memory and personality back. Strange.

But there is not one signal piece of romantic evidence between Cloud and Tifa after the Highwind scene. There is only circumstantial evidence that is not explicitly romantic.

I'm not a romance buff, but expressing yourself in ways more than words, tells me a lot. That and their reaction once spotted, oh and the confirmation from SE it was a moment of sexuality. This has been mentioned 100 times in this thread. These are facts.

--Tifa admits to not knowing if Cloud loves her. I'd say that is evidence that their mutual feelings did not turn into a long-lasting romantic relationship.

And to do so you ignore Case of Tifa and Advent Children.

Sorry this sounds rude, but this is beyond easy. If you had a case, I'd have to think on replies, but its just obvious, each answer. It's 101 storywriting mixed with 101 game mechanics mixed with 101 confirmation of facts. Just give it up. Enjoy your imaginary pairings but don't come here and try and justify em.

--Cloud has a bed in his room. I'd say that is evidence that Cloud and Tifa are not living like a typical romantic couple.

He has a spare bed in his room. This has been covered before. Case of Tifa makes their relationship clear, by AC things aren't good. In my last relationship, we slept in separate rooms because of my work and because we preferred it. Yes, we had sex. Don't look for nunaces to support your belief, look for evidence and sequential logic. Highwind happened, Case of Tifa happened, all bare through the logic of Cloud's personality in Crisis Core and flashbacks in FF7 (and Last Order). There's your logic, there is your facts.

--Cloud and Tifa's family includes Barret and Barret's daughter, Marlene. I'd say that is evidence that their family was not formed out of their romantic bond but instead circumstances outside of their control.

It's evidence, as AC is trying to show, that the FF7 are like family to each other, as with the pink ribbon they ALL wear. They're that close. Barret goes away a lot, Marlene stays with them. Big deal.

I could go on, but I'm sure you've heard all my reasons before. The point is -- there is no wedding between Cloud and Tifa. There is no kiss. There is nothing that is explicitly romantic between them after the HAHW scene. There is only circumstantial evidence that doesn't prove anything.

Expressing mutual feelings =/= romantic relationship begins/exists/lasts forever. The burden of proof is on you guys to substantiate your claim that they are in a romantic relationship.
Everything I've said in this reply has been supported by that narrative logic, nothing is awkward nor is it inconsistent to any of the characters - your version is very odd and makes for an uncomfortable logic.

My version:

Aeris and Zack have a close relationship, Zack disappears, Aeris never knows why. She feels hurt and lost and angry. Cloud wants Tifa, but Tifa never notices him, he goes off to prove he is a man by joining the army. He works with Zack, they go back to his home town where he's ashamed he's not made the rank he wanted and hides from Tifa feeling shame for his failure to become Soldier. His town is destroyed by his boss, he escapes but Zack is killed protecting Cloud, Cloud breaks down, mentally taking on Zack's dream to become a mercenary. Meets Aeris and Tifa, he's now taken on Zack's position in history. He and Aeris become friends, Aeris makes him her bodyguard. She starts to inadvertently chip away at the faux personality, but not enough. Tifa is confused by Cloud's personality and story history. Aeris is killed by Sephiroth and Cloud starts to break down, feeling the guilt, anger and pain. He discovers he's in part being controlled by the enemy, breaks down again. Tifa revives him, he remembers his history, his desire for Tifa, his want to impress her. He becomes Cloud. Cloud and Tifa have an intimate moment having opened themselves up to each other just before the World is about to end. It doesn't. They carry on into a relationship. Aeris meets ZAck in the lifestream and starts to see the truth about all she went through, she slowly starts to see the things in Cloud she likes are there in Zack but at this point still can't admit to them. Geostigma hits, Cloud is infected, Cloud's guilt and pain that was unresolved for Aeris and Zack starts to dominate. He can't be around those he loves fearing as with Aeris and Zack, he'll fail to protect them, he goes away to die, going back and forth between Zack and Aeris' grave looking for forgiveness. Everyone forgives Cloud, he is cured, he says goodbye to his guilt, to Aeris and Zack and is able to smile and rejoin his family as a person once more.

Here's your version.
Aeris has a relationship with Zack. Zack disappears. Aeris gets over Zack as she tells Cloud, despite writting nearly 100 letters to him, she falls in love with Cloud, a man who left his hometown to prove his worth to Tifa as a man, Cloud falls in love with her, Tifa is jealous. Aeris dies, Cloud forever mourns, but has a sexual encounter with Tifa before moving in with her as a friend, despite knowing how much she cares for him. The enounter means nothing romantic. They live as a commune while he mourns Aeris. He finds himself, thanks to Aeris and Zack who wave goodbye to him together before leaving his life. He is happy now in his commune with the girl who loves him but he just likes, save knowing the love of his life is now hanging around her ex-boyfriend.

Seriously?
Which has narrative consistency as a story? Which is the richer story? Which story deals with all the characters evenly without over focusing on one pair?
 

BlankBeat

Pro Adventurer
As long as you concede Barret's observation is also optional why not? Ah yess Dismantled. Fine fine it's canon for you.
You might not believe Dismanlted is canon, but at least I have some sort of evidence to support that Barret's observation is canon.

What's funny is that you continually pointed out that Barret's observation is optional while at the same time using this *OPTIONAL* quote to prove Cloud cared for Tifa during disc 1: Cloud: You worry about yourselves! I’m all right, but take care of Tifa!"

Unless you can provide evidence that your quote is canon, there are two versions of this scene:
<CHOICE>
(Be strong)
(I don't know if I can hold on...)

***Cloud
(Be strong)
Cloud
".........."
"You worry about yourselves! I'm all right, but take care of Tifa!"

Barret
"...Alright. Sorry 'bout all this."

Cloud
"Stop talkin' like this is the end!"


***Cloud
(I don't know if I can hold on....)

Cloud
"Shit! Can't hold on much longer. Barret..... Hurry!"

Barret
"Don't go cryin' like a woman. There ain't nothin' I can do for
ya. Ya gotta do it yourself."

Cloud
"Barret..."

Barret
"Alright, then, later."
I guess it just pisses me off that you would continue to say Barret's observation is optional while using optional evidence. Either you didn't realize your evidence was optional, or you hoped I wouldn't find out. Either way, I find it very telling that you'd continue to point out that Barret's observation is optional but then at the same time not verify if your evidence was also optional.

And I still have four right? And there's Aerith's observation too :aeriball:
4 out of the 6 quotes you used were optional. Yes, you can use Aerith's observation. However, her observation contradicts Cloud's own words where he states the reasons he is willing to infiltrate Don's mansion is because he doesn't want Aerith to go alone.

Cloud's own words vs. Aerith's observation.
Hmmmm....

Edit: I'm not gonna drag on this debate Blankbeat. Hito already explained why Barret's line can be simply friendship between Cloud and Barret... and it doesn't even tell what Cloud feel either :/ You debate the good arguments already laid out, I cannot add more to them.
Barret's observation can mean more than one thing.

Cloud does care about Tifa because he rescued her from Don Corneo, and I see no reason why you are rejecting this. It doesn't prove Cloud loves Aerith because Cloud caring for Tifa and Cloud loving Aerith are not mutually exclusive.
You are the one who wanted to discuss evidence that Cloud cared for Tifa during disc 1. I'm simply digging deeper into your claims. It doesn't surprise me that you'd try to run away from this debate now that most of your evidence turned out to be optional.

--------------------
Theres no way to prove Cloud wasn't just going to let Tifa get left to the Don and his henchmen as a human fleshlight.
Read the script for what it is:
Aerith: "Hey, this looks like the Don's mansion. I'll go take a look. I'll tell Tifa about you."

Cloud: "No!! You can't!!"

Aerith: "Why?"

Cloud: "You DO know... what kind of... place this is, don't you?"

Aerith: "Then, what am I supposed to do? You want to go in with me?"

Cloud: "Well being a man, that'll be pretty hard. Besides if I bust in
there, it'll cause too much commotion."

(Aerith is giggling.)

Cloud: "But, I just can't let you go in alone... Oh, man...... First, we'll need to find out if Tifa's alright.... What's so funny, Aerith?"

Aerith: "Cloud, why don't you dress up like a girl? It's the only way."


Cloud: "WHAT!?"

(Aerith speaks to the doorman.)

Aerith: "Just wait. I've got a cute friend I want to bring."

Cloud: "Aerith! I can't....."

Aerith: "You ARE worried about Tifa, aren't you? Then come on, hurry!"

1. Aerith says she'll go in and rescue Tifa.
2. Cloud tells Aerith not to because it's a horrible place for women.
3. Aerith says that Cloud should go with her if he's worried for her safety.
4. Cloud says there's no way he could because he's a guy and if he busts in, it will make too much commotion.
5. Cloud decides that despite his concerns of being a man and causing a commotion, Aerith's safety is his ultimate priority above all else.
6. Cloud agrees to dress up like a woman so Aerith doesn't have to go alone.
7. Although Aerith says, "You ARE worried about Tifa, aren't you?" -- it is clear that Cloud's decision to rescue Tifa stemmed from not wanting Aerith to go alone. Cloud says so himself in the script.

To me, it seems clear (based on the dialogue) that Cloud dressed up as a woman so Aerith wouldn't have to go alone.
 

BlankBeat

Pro Adventurer
It builds up the suggestion that they're the game's pairing, while Tifa's reactions and interactions remain true, but knocked back somewhat. Cloud is compelled to save her, Tifa clearly cares for him, but until Disk 3, their true story is a locked secret to be sprung - you are not meant to be aware of Cloud's true feelings. This is where you fall down: Cloud is an obsessive. There's only one girl for him, he's sort of pathetic like that. His whole reason to go to Soldier was to impress one girl, and even after the Lifestream event, that still remains.
Usually the only time you hope someone likes you is if you like them back. Is it that hard of a concept to grasp?

You are again ignoring the "wavers" quote. And the context before Cloud's conversation with Marlene -- Cloud agreeing to go on a date with Aerith, thinking she is physically attractive, etc.

You can't pick through disk one for evidence of Cloud's feelings - only what's said in disk 3 and onwards is evidence.
Why...?

Again, what's the point in debating if you just ignore people's points. It's a brutal pain. A prediction of an open romantic future slain by the next act, slain in part by the man controlling Cloud. Take yourself out of the romance box and put yourself in Cloud's position - how is such an act, an act you feel culpable for, NOT painful?
I'm simply saying this: SE said Aerith's death made this wedding prediction more painful. It seems obvious why Aerith's death would make this prediction more painful -- Cloud and Aerith had the possibility to get married because they had mutual feelings. The saddest part is that they were never able to express these feelings and turn them into a marriage.

He's not talking about narrative, he's talking game logistics. Hence its "something new" as games didn't play optional romances back then. Having a love triangle isn't new to stories, having it as an integral part of the game mechanics is. As I keep saying that's the deceit in the first disk.
...Cloud "wavers" between two heroines. That means Cloud had feelings beyond a friendship for both women.

That all being said, the date is non romantic, and Cloud is pretty much pulled into it - because he is that very typical teen Japanese hero at the behest of stronger women. This is all very typical. The dates are a source of Japanese humour, not romance.
So what if the date is non-romantic? Cloud agreed to go on the date in the first place. By simply agreeing to go on the date, he is showing romantic interest in Aerith.

Furthermore, Cloud and Tifa's entire relationship after the Highwind scene is non-romantic. So put that in your pipe and smoke it! ;)

I see I'm going to have repeat myself again. You've made a massive mis-step in logical there again. It's not saying romance in either category so you're jump to Tifa wanting the same bond as Aeris is nonsensical. It's saying Aeris builds up a special bond to Cloud than he has with Tifa. I have a special bond with girl friends who are going out with a guy. It's different, unique. Doesn't make it more romantic. There is a bond between the two forged, but it isn't romance. You're meant to think it is, that's the deceit, but you later find out that her lover died a tragic death, one that had Cloud adopt his traits, and Cloud himself is in the middle of a breakdown for failing to protect everyone he loved.
SE tells us that Tifa is jealous of Cloud's relationship with Aerith in both Final Fantasy VII and Advent Children. Given the context with which this information is presented, Tifa's jealously stems from the fact that her and Cloud's romantic bond is threatened by Cloud's romantic bond with Aerith.

Fact, Tifa and Cloud get intimate under the Highwind. Fact, Cloud and Tifa start a romance after.
I agree that Cloud and Tifa get intimate under the Highwind.

But I'm genuinely curious what evidence you have that they start a romance? And I don't mean circumstantial evidence like living together or starting a family together. Because all of that is highly debatable in terms of if it shows a romance between them.

If you seriously think you need a bonus game to tell you the answer to a game that gives you ALL the answers, if you think that was really necessary, you need to go back to storytelling 101. If you throw the Aeris KH card out there, people swing the Tifa KH2 card back at you.
You didn't answer the question: what does the ending of Kingdom Hearts tell us about the nature of Cloud and Aerith's relationship in Final Fantasy VII?

Since Nomura said it, obviously the ending of KH must tell us SOMETHING about the *NATURE* of Cloud and Aerith's relationship.

Do you not think he was hinting towards Cloud and Aerith's *romantic* bond?

I'm not a romance buff, but expressing yourself in ways more than words, tells me a lot. That and their reaction once spotted, oh and the confirmation from SE it was a moment of sexuality. This has been mentioned 100 times in this thread. These are facts.
Expressing mutual feelings =/= romantic relationship exists/lasts forever

And to do so you ignore Case of Tifa and Advent Children.
What in CoT and AC shows a romantic relationship between Cloud and Tifa? And I don't mean circumstantial/debatable evidence.

And you've yet to answer my point: if Tifa doesn't know if Cloud loves her, isn't that evidence that they might not be in a romantic relationship?

He has a spare bed in his room. This has been covered before. Case of Tifa makes their relationship clear, by AC things aren't good. In my last relationship, we slept in separate rooms because of my work and because we preferred it. Yes, we had sex. Don't look for nunaces to support your belief, look for evidence and sequential logic. Highwind happened, Case of Tifa happened, all bare through the logic of Cloud's personality in Crisis Core and flashbacks in FF7 (and Last Order). There's your logic, there is your facts.
It doesn't make sense that SE would include a random bed in Cloud's room for no reason. Until we see Cloud and Tifa sleeping together, the only logical conclusion is that Cloud sleeps in the bed found in his room. That's just using a bit of common sense, IMO.

It's evidence, as AC is trying to show, that the FF7 are like family to each other, as with the pink ribbon they ALL wear. They're that close. Barret goes away a lot, Marlene stays with them. Big deal.
I'm proclaiming a very simple thing:

The family formed was not formed from Cloud and Tifa's possible romantic relationship. Therefore, it has no relevance in proving Cloud and Tifa are a couple.
 
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Goodbye Charlie

Rising Chest-Bank Protestor
Only answering a few of these simply as if you don't get the logic, you don't want to and its just trolling opinion.

I'm simply saying this: SE said Aerith's death made this wedding prediction more painful. It seems obvious why Aerith's death would make this prediction more painful -- Cloud and Aerith had the possibility to get married because they had mutual feelings. The saddest part is that they were never able to express these feelings and turn them into a marriage.

Surely dying before you need to, with hopes, aspirations and dreams of a future is far more painful and less self focused than "I'm pained cos we wuved each other!" Again, he's ill, not himself, he's not in a place for a romance. The players are.

...Cloud "wavers" between two heroines. That means Cloud had feelings beyond a friendship for both women.

Contextually to disk one, where the player can choose who he likes more. That's the whole point. You can have multiple choice on disk one because it doesn't matter who you decide Cloud prefers because it isn't Cloud - when Cloud is Cloud again, you have to accept his actions, and they ultimately lead to Tifa.

So what if the date is non-romantic? Cloud agreed to go on the date in the first place. By simply agreeing to go on the date, he is showing romantic interest in Aerith.

No he isn't. It's a "reward" and Cloud is honourable. He can't refuse. Get to know your Japanese archetypes!

Furthermore, Cloud and Tifa's entire relationship after the Highwind scene is non-romantic. So put that in your pipe and smoke it! ;)

Actions words can't express - love beyond words... not romantic... right.

But I'm genuinely curious what evidence you have that they start a romance? And I don't mean circumstantial evidence like living together or starting a family together. Because all of that is highly debatable in terms of if it shows a romance between them.

Case of Tifa. Among other sources.

Since Nomura said it, obviously the ending of KH must tell us SOMETHING about the *NATURE* of Cloud and Aerith's relationship.

Yet you ignore his points clearly defining Tifa and Cloud AS a relationship, let alone the story... Tifa being Cloud's light and all too. You ignored the KH2 point. Evens.

What in CoT and AC shows a romantic relationship between Cloud and Tifa? And I don't mean circumstantial/debatable evidence.

Insulting. Go tell the writer that. He'd punch you. That is as clear as day. I'm not pulling out quotes on something so obvious. Good lord.

And you've yet to answer my point: if Tifa doesn't know if Cloud loves her, isn't that evidence that they might not be in a romantic relationship?

Nope. It's the quintessential Japanese blind lovers, both unaware of their feelings UNTIL the Lifestream scene.

It doesn't make sense that SE would include a random bed in Cloud's room for no reason. Until we see Cloud and Tifa sleeping together, the only logical conclusion is that Cloud sleeps in the bed found in his room. That's just using a bit of common sense, IMO.

Cloud's job takes him out working at all hours. It would make sense to have a spare cot. That's not strange at all, nor is it focused on within the story, so not relevant. The writers presume that Case of Tifa tells you all you need to know. They don't presume you're looking to justify a weird situation where a girl in love, lives in the same house, as a family with a man who loves someone else, someone she was close to. That's not on the cards.

I'm proclaiming a very simple thing:

The family formed was not formed from Cloud and Tifa's possible romantic relationship. Therefore, it has no relevance in proving Cloud and Tifa are a couple.

That's absurd. If they were living 2 years without being a romantic couple you'd NEED to put that in the story, as audiences will not presume two characters, are living together with two different motivations. Unless you're suggesting Tifa doesn't love Cloud now, in which case you need to prove that.

and again:
My version:

Aeris and Zack have a close relationship, Zack disappears, Aeris never knows why. She feels hurt and lost and angry. Cloud wants Tifa, but Tifa never notices him, he goes off to prove he is a man by joining the army. He works with Zack, they go back to his home town where he's ashamed he's not made the rank he wanted and hides from Tifa feeling shame for his failure to become Soldier. His town is destroyed by his boss, he escapes but Zack is killed protecting Cloud, Cloud breaks down, mentally taking on Zack's dream to become a mercenary. Meets Aeris and Tifa, he's now taken on Zack's position in history. He and Aeris become friends, Aeris makes him her bodyguard. She starts to inadvertently chip away at the faux personality, but not enough. Tifa is confused by Cloud's personality and story history. Aeris is killed by Sephiroth and Cloud starts to break down, feeling the guilt, anger and pain. He discovers he's in part being controlled by the enemy, breaks down again. Tifa revives him, he remembers his history, his desire for Tifa, his want to impress her. He becomes Cloud. Cloud and Tifa have an intimate moment having opened themselves up to each other just before the World is about to end. It doesn't. They carry on into a relationship. Aeris meets ZAck in the lifestream and starts to see the truth about all she went through, she slowly starts to see the things in Cloud she likes are there in Zack but at this point still can't admit to them. Geostigma hits, Cloud is infected, Cloud's guilt and pain that was unresolved for Aeris and Zack starts to dominate. He can't be around those he loves fearing as with Aeris and Zack, he'll fail to protect them, he goes away to die, going back and forth between Zack and Aeris' grave looking for forgiveness. Everyone forgives Cloud, he is cured, he says goodbye to his guilt, to Aeris and Zack and is able to smile and rejoin his family as a person once more.

Here's your version.
Aeris has a relationship with Zack. Zack disappears. Aeris gets over Zack as she tells Cloud, despite writting nearly 100 letters to him, she falls in love with Cloud, a man who left his hometown to prove his worth to Tifa as a man, Cloud falls in love with her, Tifa is jealous. Aeris dies, Cloud forever mourns, but has a sexual encounter with Tifa before moving in with her as a friend, despite knowing how much she cares for him. The enounter means nothing romantic. They live as a commune while he mourns Aeris. He finds himself, thanks to Aeris and Zack who wave goodbye to him together before leaving his life. He is happy now in his commune with the girl who loves him but he just likes, save knowing the love of his life is now hanging around her ex-boyfriend.

Seriously?
Which has narrative consistency as a story? Which is the richer story? Which story deals with all the characters evenly without over focusing on one pair?
 

Strangelove

AI Researcher
AKA
hitoshura
i can't believe we are finally back to 'cloud only went to rescue tifa because he was worried about aerith', it's been years since i've seen that

:headburst:

when you have to make out characters to be heartless unless love (for one specific person) is involved, maybe you ought to look at what you're trying to get from the story. are we really meant to see cloud as a character who doesn't care about anyone else, who wasn't even going to try to save tifa until 'aerith was in danger', who was just going to leave her there because there was no easy way to get in

are these the characters we're expected to root for? cloud wouldn't rescue tifa unless aerith says it or is at risk. tifa and barret would not have gone to save aerith if cloud wasn't going to go.

since guidebook quotes are in right now, here's one from the crisis core ultimania and from the english guidebook:

She and Cloud came to realize their feelings for each other in the end of the story, and live together in AC and DC.
'realising their feelings for each other' would be the highwind scene. it purposely juxtaposes realising their feelings with them living together. it's only about cloud and tifa, no mention of barret. their feelings for each other are tied in with their living together.
 

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
Just when I had hope for BlankBeat, the crazy train mowed down Saneville like it was North Corel.

Apparently Cloud wavering between Aerith and Tifa somehow only proves that he cares for one while he doesn't give so much as a chocobo shit about the other.
 

Danseru-kun

Pro Adventurer
The way I see it, Blankbeat's points actually tries to argue that Aerith is a better match for Cloud, that Aerith is the sole figure that will make him a better person, that Cloud loves Aerith more, and his supreme happiness is Aerith rather than actually proving romance.
 

Strangelove

AI Researcher
AKA
hitoshura
this is why i don't understand 'they're both canon, but here's how one side is a horrible match and this one i like is a lot better'.

if cloud's line at the end of ffvii means that he wants to be with aerith, doesn't that end things? tifa is right there, alive, having confessed her feelings. but cloud wants aerith, so that's that, right?

'the debate is about who cloud loves' just sounds like an easy excuse to keep it going. it makes the question general enough (it's not about who he ends up with, just who he loves) that everybody wins
 

Philco

Pro Adventurer
Just a couple of things -
3. Cloud laughs for only Aerith in Final Fantasy VII.

Just thought you should be reminded of this part of the game:
Cloud: It's like you always told me, Barret.

Barret: Oh, uh, you mean that!

Nanaki: What? I don't understand!

Cloud: There ain't no gettin' offa this train we on!
Tifa:There ain't no gettin' offa this train we on!
Barret:The train we on don't make no stops!

Everyone laughs and runs out, Barret chasing after them, leaving Cloud behind.

1. Cloud was triggered into a romantic flashback in Aerith's house after meeting her. Was this a clue from SE that with the introduction of Aerith, Cloud could be changing his mind about the idea of having an older girlfriend? What else could have triggered Cloud into this flashback aside from Cloud's romantic infatuation with Aerith?

What else could have triggered it? Apparently the bed he was in...
I haven't slept in a bed like this ...in a long time.
Cloud: ...Oh, yeah.
Ever since that time.
 

Strangelove

AI Researcher
AKA
hitoshura
i am just going to make a big post of things i haven't seen answers for and see if there will be any if i copypasta it several times

1: Barret's observation

If you look at the full dialogue (for the stairs version), Tifa giggles towards the end:

Barret: &#8220;&#8230;heh heh heh.&#8221;
Cloud: &#8220;Knock it off. You're giving me the creeps.&#8221;
Barret: &#8220;So even you will fight for someone else. Guess I figured you wrong.&#8221;
Cloud: &#8220;Who cares what you figured!&#8221;
Barret: &#8220;I'm just sayin' mebbe I was wrong&#8230;&#8221;
Tifa: &#8220;heh heh heh&#8230;&#8230;&#8221;
Cloud: &#8220;What's that supposed to mean, Tifa?&#8221;

If this was about Cloud and Aerith's growing relationship, which Tifa is jealous of, why would she laugh at it here? I mean, this is the woman who is constantly including herself in Cloud and Aerith's love life so maybe nothing she does makes sense, but why laugh? What's that showing about Tifa, if this conversation is about Aerith being the only one Cloud cares about?

2: Sector 7 pillar

Just before the above dialogue, Cloud had just gone to help Barret as he was fighting on the pillar. Does that not show Cloud 'fighting for other people'? This happened before Aerith was taken, it had nothing to do with her at all. Is Barret's opinion of Cloud going to improve because he sees that all he cares about is Aerith? "Oh, you don't care about me or Tifa or anyone but Aerith, I have a better opinion of you now"? Are we expected to believe that Barret would applaud Cloud for only caring about one other person he just met?

3: "Let's go meet her."

Why does Tifa include herself in the end of FFVII, if this is Cloud saying he wants to see Aerith alone? Why does Cloud not say anything to turn her down or correct her? The Ultimania Omega states that they are both going to go see Aerith. Why are they both going, if Cloud's statement is meant to be an indication of romance? Does Tifa have romantic feelings for Aerith too?

4: Cloud and Tifa living together

Why would Cloud and Tifa being together be something Nojima was sure of when writing AC (Reunion Files)? Everyone being 'living back home where they belong'? (Not where they were 'introduced' as this doesn't apply to most of the characters.) Seventh Heaven being the 'homebase of AVALANCHE' doesn't make sense because the new Seventh Heaven wasn't created to be a base for AVALANCHE, it was made to help people dealing with life after Meteor. Tifa was initially hesitant about starting another bar/restaurant because she didn't want to go back to the way things were in the past.

Again, Barret is excluded there. Nojima doesn't say he was sure 'Cloud, Tifa, and Barret' would be together. Barret is removed from the household before long. Where he belongs isn't the 'homebase of AVALANCHE', apparently.

Cloud and Tifa's living together is mentioned in the same breath as them realising their feelings for each other (CC Ultimania). Why would those two things be in the same sentence if there is no connection between the two statements?


now i can't be bothered to think of any more.
i can't be bothered
 

Danseru-kun

Pro Adventurer
I suggest we just let Blankbeat answer Hito instead of many of us reacting and him choosing the most convenient points to rebut.

The sector 7 pillar is a good point (why didn't I think of that) If Cloud doesn't really care, he wouldn't have climbed up the pillar and tried to help.
 

Aerobalance

yukkuri shitete ne~
AKA
Rye
I remember searching for sites that supports C/A and that site had examples of other pairings related to C/A because I loved C/A together and I wanted to hear what they had to say. And they also added Vincent x Lucrecia.

Didn't Lucrecia have a relationship with Vincent because she felt guilty about his father's death and Hojo and Lucrecia do the do with each other and made Sephiroth?

I'm not so sure about that though cause I have not played DoC but people kept talking about that.

But If what i read about Lucrecia and Hojo is true, why this an example for the pairing?

Idk I'm lost...
 

Goodbye Charlie

Rising Chest-Bank Protestor
I still the simplest answer is in the large concepts not small moments. If you put side by side, as I did on the last page, a version of the Compilation based on CloudxTifa ZackXAeris compared to erm, ZackxAeris(not much) and CloudxAeris, the actual map of the story and character choices are startlingly different.

The former you get a flow of cause and effect which dovetail into a story with beginning, middle and end, with rational character choices that respects all the characters and answers all the questions. The latter, you get a story focused around two very self absorbed people and everyone else collides and bounces around the place in a confusing and unrealistic mess.

You don't need people to tell you the answers, you don't even need to quote. You can see through simple cause and effect. If Cloud was in love with Aeris ultimately, anything under the Highwind makes that love shallow and the character superficial. If he lives with Tifa who loves him, then his actions are callous. If Aeris has spurned Zack's memory for Cloud, their appearance in a comfortable frame at the end of Advent Children leaves questions, not closure. If Cloud is rebuking all those who love him to die mourning in a church for his lost love, doesn't that make Cloud utterly unlikable? Do we want Cloud to be a callous, self absorbed git simply to affirm the idea of love with another character (while he was acting out the dreams of her boyfriend?). Even love on disk one gets unhealthy in that light - Cloud is living out the dreams of the boyfriend of the girl who has taken a shine to him for some reason - and that's the building blocks of a love story? Especially when we see that people's spirits live on in the lifestream, and we know Zack's disappearance wasn't cold or unkind, but through death and valour? Is that the end he deserves? To have his girl fall into the arms of the guy he saved who thinks he's him? Does that really sit right?

None of these aspects gel, and ultimately its why I can't say there's romance on disk one. Attraction perhaps, you can understand that, and such doesn't make Cloud any less nasty for falling into Tifa's shorts, but love, that's when it gets weird.
 

Knuxson

Pro Adventurer
EXACTLY! It is the big picture and overall narrative that is really important here. Context is ignored when you look at isolated lines of dialogue. The story was written by professional writers and, thus, you have to look at it from that same perspective.
 

BlankBeat

Pro Adventurer
Danseru-kun,

While you were pointing out that Barret's observation is optional (even though Dismantled makes it canon) did you know 4 of the 6 reasons you were giving to show Cloud cares for Tifa during disc 1 were also optional?

Either you didn't know your reasons were optional, or you didn't think I'd investigate your reasons thoroughly. Which is it?

What's very disheartening is that while you were using this *OPTIONAL* piece of dialogue to show Cloud cares for Tifa, "Cloud: "You worry about yourselves! I&#8217;m all right, but take care of Tifa!" -- you continually tried to dismiss Barret's observation because it was optional.

It pisses me off that you would continue to say Barret's observation is optional (even though Dismantled makes it canon) while at the same time using optional evidence.

So which is it: did you not know your evidence was optional, or did you just hope I wouldn't find out?

--------------------

Hawk,

1. Did you read THIS post where I make the point that it was Cloud who first thought about rescuing Aerith, not Tifa or Barret?

2. You can say whatever you want about me, but the script says that the reason Cloud decided to go in Don's mansion was because he didn't want Aerith to go alone.

I know you believe I'm downplaying Cloud and Tifa's relationship again, but to be honest -- I'm looking at the script for what it is: Aerith says she'll go in to rescue Tifa, Cloud tells Aerith's it's too dangerous, Aerith then suggests Cloud should go with her, Cloud thinks of 2 reasons why he wouldn't be able to go with Aerith, Cloud then decides that he can't let Aerith go "alone" regardless of the two roadblocks he thought of, Cloud then agrees to Aerith's plan to dress up like a girl so she doesn't have to go alone.

Deny this all you want, but that's what the script says. Cloud rescued Tifa because he didn't want Aerith to go alone.

--------------------
Surely dying before you need to, with hopes, aspirations and dreams of a future is far more painful and less self focused than "I'm pained cos we wuved each other!" Again, he's ill, not himself, he's not in a place for a romance. The players are.
Then we have a disagreement. I believe that Cloud's reaction to Aerith's death stemmed in part from his romantic feelings for her. By SE saying Cait Sith's wedding prediction becomes more painful after her death, it let's me know that Sephiroth prevented a mutual romance between Cloud and Aerith from turning into a marriage.

Contextually to disk one, where the player can choose who he likes more. That's the whole point. You can have multiple choice on disk one because it doesn't matter who you decide Cloud prefers because it isn't Cloud - when Cloud is Cloud again, you have to accept his actions, and they ultimately lead to Tifa.
The choices are there because both Aerith and Tifa are alive, not because Cloud isn't his 'real' self.

Furthermore, some choices have official/canon outcomes.

No he isn't. It's a "reward" and Cloud is honourable. He can't refuse. Get to know your Japanese archetypes!
Cloud's date with Aerith is pictured on the "For the One I Love Page". Obviously SE views this date as romantic if they included it on the "For the One I Love Page".

And although Cloud and Aerith's date isn't mentioned by name on the FTOIL page, it *IS* pictured, and we know (from other sources) that their date is the canon date. Therefore, it is irrelevant that their date isn't mentioned directly on the page.

Actions words can't express - love beyond words... not romantic... right.
Huh? You made the point that the Cloud x Aerith date wasn't romantic. So if you want to go down that road, Cloud and Tifa's relationship isn't romantic in CoT or AC.

Case of Tifa. Among other sources.
What in CoT proves they are in a relationship?

Yet you ignore his points clearly defining Tifa and Cloud AS a relationship, let alone the story... Tifa being Cloud's light and all too. You ignored the KH2 point. Evens.
You didn't answer the question. What does Nomura mean when he says that the ending of KH might answer questions about Cloud and Aerith's relationship in FFVII?

Cloud's job takes him out working at all hours. It would make sense to have a spare cot. That's not strange at all, nor is it focused on within the story, so not relevant. The writers presume that Case of Tifa tells you all you need to know. They don't presume you're looking to justify a weird situation where a girl in love, lives in the same house, as a family with a man who loves someone else, someone she was close to. That's not on the cards.
You can come up with excuses all you want, but until we see Cloud and Tifa sleeping together, it only makes sense that Cloud sleeps in the bed found in his room. Therefore, it is unlikely that Cloud and Tifa are living like a typical romantic couple.

That's absurd. If they were living 2 years without being a romantic couple you'd NEED to put that in the story, as audiences will not presume two characters, are living together with two different motivations. Unless you're suggesting Tifa doesn't love Cloud now, in which case you need to prove that.
The family formed in Edge was not formed because of Cloud and Tifa's (possible) romantic relationship. It was formed with Barret and Marlene. Therefore, this "family" cannot be used as evidence to support Cloud and Tifa's (possible) romantic relationship.

--------------------

Strangelove, I will have to get to your post later.
 
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Sikozu

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Sylphide
BlankBeat said:
Deny this all you want, but that's what the script says. Cloud rescued Tifa because he didn't want Aerith to go alone.

When they see Tifa ride the chocobo cart into Wall Market and Aerith runs ahead, Cloud says he'll go on alone and for her to go home. What do you think he was planning on doing once he got in there? Investigate what Tifa was doing only to abandon her if she'd gotten into a tight spot? Cloud would have gone in regardless. They just decided on that way because Aerith takes matters into her own hands.
 
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