1. How is Cloud's comment to Marlene meant to build up deceit? When Marlene tells Cloud Aerith likes him, Cloud responds, "Let’s hope so". Cloud saying, "Let's hope so," tells us that Cloud would like there to be a mutual romantic relationship between him and Aerith. These are Cloud's own words.
It builds up the suggestion that they're the game's pairing, while Tifa's reactions and interactions remain true, but knocked back somewhat. Cloud is compelled to save her, Tifa clearly cares for him, but until Disk 3, their true story is a locked secret to be sprung - you are not meant to be aware of Cloud's true feelings. This is where you fall down: Cloud is an obsessive. There's only one girl for him, he's sort of pathetic like that. His whole reason to go to Soldier was to impress one girl, and even after the Lifestream event, that still remains.
And here's the kicker, by trying to beef up his interest in Aeris, you make it superficial, because Cloud's instant jump into Tifa's pants in disk 3 would instantly disgrace such love. His interest in Aeris is confused, because he's confused. It's not love. There's most likely attraction, but he's a man with partial amnesia and personality crisis. You can't pick through disk one for evidence of Cloud's feelings - only what's said in disk 3 and onwards is evidence.
2. If Cloud did not love Aerith, how could a wedding prediction become "more painful" after her death? The only way a wedding prediction would become "more painful" is if there was a basis for which a wedding could happen (ie: mutual romance).
Again, what's the point in debating if you just ignore people's points. It's a brutal pain. A prediction of an open romantic future slain by the next act, slain in part by the man controlling Cloud. Take yourself out of the romance box and put yourself in Cloud's position - how is such an act, an act you feel culpable for, NOT painful?
3. You are forgetting this quote: "And having two heroines, Aerith and Tifa, and having the hero waver between them, at the time that was something new.” ~Interview with the creators, pg. 8-13, 10th Anniversary Ultimania
This quote tells us that Cloud wavered between Aerith and Tifa -- which means that his relationship with both women was more than a friendship. The only way Cloud could "waver" to Aerith is if he was romantically interested in her.
He's not talking about narrative, he's talking game logistics. Hence its "something new" as games didn't play optional romances back then. Having a love triangle isn't new to stories, having it as an integral part of the game mechanics is. As I keep saying that's the deceit in the first disk.
4. How does Cloud agreeing to go on a date with Aerith build up deceit? It makes perfect sense that Cloud would want to date a girl he finds physically attractive.
You're missing, intentionally or not, the context. Deceit means it naturally builds the players hopes towards a Cloud and Aeris romance. Now there's a natural inclination for players to prefer Tifa, but I personally don't doubt the game angles the first-time player towards Aeris as its a classic romance story of boy meets girl (Cloud already knows Tifa), but that's because the payoff is the tragedy, and the tragedy works better if the audience is invested. So that's the deceit - narrative mechanics.
That all being said, the date is non romantic, and Cloud is pretty much pulled into it - because he is that very typical teen Japanese hero at the behest of stronger women. This is all very typical. The dates are a source of Japanese humour, not romance.
5. When SE says that Aerith had, "built up a special bond with Cloud that was different from Tifa's," it's not saying that one relationship is romantic and the other isn't. It's saying that although both relationships are romantic, Tifa wishes she had a romantic bond with Cloud that was similar to his romantic bond with Aerith. I'd imagine this means Tifa wishes her romantic relationship with Cloud was more flirtatious, open, and forward.
I see I'm going to have repeat myself again. You've made a massive mis-step in logical there again. It's not saying romance in either category so you're jump to Tifa wanting the same bond as Aeris is nonsensical. It's saying Aeris builds up a special bond to Cloud than he has with Tifa. I have a special bond with girl friends who are going out with a guy. It's different, unique. Doesn't make it more romantic. There is a bond between the two forged, but it isn't romance. You're meant to think it is, that's the deceit, but you later find out that her lover died a tragic death, one that had Cloud adopt his traits, and Cloud himself is in the middle of a breakdown for failing to protect everyone he loved.
6. Cloud was triggered into a romantic flashback in Aerith's house after meeting her. Was this a clue from SE that with the introduction of Aerith, Cloud could be changing his mind about the idea of having an older girlfriend? What else could have triggered Cloud into this flashback aside from Cloud's romantic infatuation with Aerith?
Again. Deceit. Build up to tragedy. You've been told this over and over. Making the audience thing the story is going in one direction but swings massively in the other.
You - and many before you - confuse game mechanics and dramatic twists as literal answers to the goal you desire.
Fact, Tifa and Cloud get intimate under the Highwind. Fact, Cloud and Tifa start a romance after. Fact, if Cloud was massively into Aeris, such actions would make him a bit of a superficial dick. Is that really what you desire? Isn't it better to have Cloud as a man who cares for a friend deeply, a friend who he was most likely attracted to but still nonetheless a friend, a friend he swore to protect, a friend who clearly adored him. A friend he'd have had for life. Isn't that a better situation?
7. "There’s no relationship from FFVII to the Kingdom Hearts stories. I consider them separate stories. But if you play Kingdom Hearts, toward the end, some of the questions about the relationship between Cloud and Aeris in Final Fantasy VII might be answered.” ~Nomura, Square Enix
Nomura specifically says that although the two universes of Kingdom Hearts and FFVII are separate, the Kingdom Hearts universe might help answer questions about the relationship between Cloud and Aerith as it pertains to Final Fantasy VII’s universe.
So what does this ending of Kingdom Hearts tell us about the nature of Cloud and Aerith's relationship in Final Fantasy VII?
If you seriously think you need a bonus game to tell you the answer to a game that gives you ALL the answers, if you think that was really necessary, you need to go back to storytelling 101. If you throw the Aeris KH card out there, people swing the Tifa KH2 card back at you.
Cloud is a Japanese hero, hellbent on two main assets - guardianship of those who loves, and honour as a soldier. With Aeris he failed on both counts - he fails to protect a loved friend, he is part of the force that kills her. That is a massive thing in terms of Japanese heroes, KH to me was about that pain still.
I don't think it's that hard to figure out what Nomura meant by his statement.
And yet you ignore all of Nomura's statements in the rest of the Compilation - especially his actual writings in terms of the Compilation, Cloud and Tifa's romance and the Highwind. Amazing how you focus on one camp that you can interpret as serving your corner, but ignore his writings and intents as a whole in terms of the actual F7 canon...
So what? Cloud and Aerith's bond is based on a time when Cloud was ill. And since Cloud continues to feel a strong bond with Aerith after he gets better, what differences does it make that Cloud was ill on disc 1?
Maybe we need to stop talking. If you don't understand how a man who doesn't know his own past and personality MIGHT affect how he comes across to others as well as his own intentions... then really you've lost the argument there.
I use Cloud's attraction to Aerith's appearance and the laughter she evoked from him as a basis for which I saw their romantic connection begin and grow.
And yet you ignore Tifa and Cloud's copulations and living together as a hint that Cloud's desire for Tifa as a child is realised as SOON as he gets his memory and personality back. Strange.
But there is not one signal piece of romantic evidence between Cloud and Tifa after the Highwind scene. There is only circumstantial evidence that is not explicitly romantic.
I'm not a romance buff, but expressing yourself in ways more than words, tells me a lot. That and their reaction once spotted, oh and the confirmation from SE it was a moment of sexuality. This has been mentioned 100 times in this thread. These are facts.
--Tifa admits to not knowing if Cloud loves her. I'd say that is evidence that their mutual feelings did not turn into a long-lasting romantic relationship.
And to do so you ignore Case of Tifa and Advent Children.
Sorry this sounds rude, but this is beyond easy. If you had a case, I'd have to think on replies, but its just obvious, each answer. It's 101 storywriting mixed with 101 game mechanics mixed with 101 confirmation of facts. Just give it up. Enjoy your imaginary pairings but don't come here and try and justify em.
--Cloud has a bed in his room. I'd say that is evidence that Cloud and Tifa are not living like a typical romantic couple.
He has a spare bed in his room. This has been covered before. Case of Tifa makes their relationship clear, by AC things aren't good. In my last relationship, we slept in separate rooms because of my work and because we preferred it. Yes, we had sex. Don't look for nunaces to support your belief, look for evidence and sequential logic. Highwind happened, Case of Tifa happened, all bare through the logic of Cloud's personality in Crisis Core and flashbacks in FF7 (and Last Order). There's your logic, there is your facts.
--Cloud and Tifa's family includes Barret and Barret's daughter, Marlene. I'd say that is evidence that their family was not formed out of their romantic bond but instead circumstances outside of their control.
It's evidence, as AC is trying to show, that the FF7 are like family to each other, as with the pink ribbon they ALL wear. They're that close. Barret goes away a lot, Marlene stays with them. Big deal.
I could go on, but I'm sure you've heard all my reasons before. The point is -- there is no wedding between Cloud and Tifa. There is no kiss. There is nothing that is explicitly romantic between them after the HAHW scene. There is only circumstantial evidence that doesn't prove anything.
Expressing mutual feelings =/= romantic relationship begins/exists/lasts forever. The burden of proof is on you guys to substantiate your claim that they are in a romantic relationship.
Everything I've said in this reply has been supported by that narrative logic, nothing is awkward nor is it inconsistent to any of the characters - your version is very odd and makes for an uncomfortable logic.
My version:
Aeris and Zack have a close relationship, Zack disappears, Aeris never knows why. She feels hurt and lost and angry. Cloud wants Tifa, but Tifa never notices him, he goes off to prove he is a man by joining the army. He works with Zack, they go back to his home town where he's ashamed he's not made the rank he wanted and hides from Tifa feeling shame for his failure to become Soldier. His town is destroyed by his boss, he escapes but Zack is killed protecting Cloud, Cloud breaks down, mentally taking on Zack's dream to become a mercenary. Meets Aeris and Tifa, he's now taken on Zack's position in history. He and Aeris become friends, Aeris makes him her bodyguard. She starts to inadvertently chip away at the faux personality, but not enough. Tifa is confused by Cloud's personality and story history. Aeris is killed by Sephiroth and Cloud starts to break down, feeling the guilt, anger and pain. He discovers he's in part being controlled by the enemy, breaks down again. Tifa revives him, he remembers his history, his desire for Tifa, his want to impress her. He becomes Cloud. Cloud and Tifa have an intimate moment having opened themselves up to each other just before the World is about to end. It doesn't. They carry on into a relationship. Aeris meets ZAck in the lifestream and starts to see the truth about all she went through, she slowly starts to see the things in Cloud she likes are there in Zack but at this point still can't admit to them. Geostigma hits, Cloud is infected, Cloud's guilt and pain that was unresolved for Aeris and Zack starts to dominate. He can't be around those he loves fearing as with Aeris and Zack, he'll fail to protect them, he goes away to die, going back and forth between Zack and Aeris' grave looking for forgiveness. Everyone forgives Cloud, he is cured, he says goodbye to his guilt, to Aeris and Zack and is able to smile and rejoin his family as a person once more.
Here's your version.
Aeris has a relationship with Zack. Zack disappears. Aeris gets over Zack as she tells Cloud, despite writting nearly 100 letters to him, she falls in love with Cloud, a man who left his hometown to prove his worth to Tifa as a man, Cloud falls in love with her, Tifa is jealous. Aeris dies, Cloud forever mourns, but has a sexual encounter with Tifa before moving in with her as a friend, despite knowing how much she cares for him. The enounter means nothing romantic. They live as a commune while he mourns Aeris. He finds himself, thanks to Aeris and Zack who wave goodbye to him together before leaving his life. He is happy now in his commune with the girl who loves him but he just likes, save knowing the love of his life is now hanging around her ex-boyfriend.
Seriously?
Which has narrative consistency as a story? Which is the richer story? Which story deals with all the characters evenly without over focusing on one pair?