You can say whatever you want about me, but the script says that the reason Cloud decided to go in Don's mansion was because he didn't want Aerith to go alone.
No, it doesn't. Cloud and Aerith went there to find Tifa. When they won't let Cloud in because he is a guy, Aerith volunteers to go alone since they are willing to let her in. But, knowing that it would be too dangerous by herself, Cloud tells her not to. So, he starts to ponder another way in. Then, Aerith comes up with the cross-dressing idea so that they can both get in. That way Aerith doesn't go alone. It doesn't indicate AT ALL that had Aerith not tried to go in by herself that Cloud would have walked away. You are reading Cloud's line about causing too much commotion the wrong way. It wasn't a definitive, "it can't be done, let's give up" line. He was just trying to think of a better way in. And Aerith didn't "decide" to rescue Tifa first. I think it is understood that both of them were standing there with the intention of rescuing Tifa, but were thinking of a good plan to get in.
Excellent posts, Goodbye Charlie. Very eloquent. I really think that's what its all about, and it isn't very complicated. It only gets complicated when you try to unravel the story to suit your own desires. When someone pulls that string to unravel the story, they end up ruining it, and it won't fit back together correctly.
god are we still on this "Cloud only did stuff for Aerith" kick?... the guy can think for himself...
Why did he join Avalanche? Why did he decide to stay on for another mission? Was that about Aerith too? Of course Cloud cares about Aerith and wants to protect her, but geeze, he cares about Tifa too. Stop trying to downplay every single Tifa/Cloud thing.
also later I wanna reply to some posts Goodbye Charlie made because I actually disagree with a couple points he made.
After Cloud tells Aerith it would be too dangerous by herself, Aerith says, "Do you want to go with me?" Only after Aerith asks Cloud to go with her does he start to ponder another way in. It was Aerith asking Cloud to go with her that prompted him to think of different ways to go in.
Then, after Cloud couldn't think of a way to get in, he says, "But, I just can't let you go in alone..." This tells us that although Cloud didn't think there would be a way to get in, the overriding factor in Cloud's mind was Aerith's safety.
If Cloud had been alone, Aerith's safety wouldn't have been there to worry about and thus, Cloud would have had no reason to put aside his reservations about being a guy and causing too much of a commotion.
When they see Tifa ride the chocobo cart into Wall Market and Aerith runs ahead, Cloud says he'll go on alone and for her to go home. What do you think he was planning on doing once he got in there? Investigate what Tifa was doing only to abandon her if she'd gotten into a tight spot? Cloud would have gone in regardless. They just decided on that way because Aerith takes matters into her own hands.
Cloud had no idea that Tifa was in Don's mansion when he saw her in the chocobo cart. Once finding out she was in Don's mansion, I believe Cloud would have determined he wouldn't be able to save Tifa because he's a man and busting in would have caused, "too much of a commotion".
--------------------
EDIT #1:
I'm still waiting for Danseru-kun to answer my question:
While you were pointing out that Barret's observation is optional (even though Dismantled makes it canon) did you know 4 of the 6 reasons you were giving to show Cloud cares for Tifa during disc 1 were also optional?
Either you didn't know your reasons were optional, or you didn't think I'd investigate your reasons thoroughly. Which is it?
What's very disheartening is that while you were using this *OPTIONAL* piece of dialogue to show Cloud cares for Tifa, "Cloud: "You worry about yourselves! I’m all right, but take care of Tifa!" -- you continually tried to dismiss Barret's observation because it was optional.
It pisses me off that you would continue to say Barret's observation is optional (even though Dismantled makes it canon) while at the same time using optional evidence.
So which is it: did you not know your evidence was optional, or did you just hope I wouldn't find out?
If you look at the full dialogue (for the stairs version), Tifa giggles towards the end:
Barret: “…heh heh heh.”
Cloud: “Knock it off. You're giving me the creeps.”
Barret: “So even you will fight for someone else. Guess I figured you wrong.”
Cloud: “Who cares what you figured!”
Barret: “I'm just sayin' mebbe I was wrong…”
Tifa: “heh heh heh……”
Cloud: “What's that supposed to mean, Tifa?”
If this was about Cloud and Aerith's growing relationship, which Tifa is jealous of, why would she laugh at it here? I mean, this is the woman who is constantly including herself in Cloud and Aerith's love life so maybe nothing she does makes sense, but why laugh? What's that showing about Tifa, if this conversation is about Aerith being the only one Cloud cares about?
Just before the above dialogue, Cloud had just gone to help Barret as he was fighting on the pillar. Does that not show Cloud 'fighting for other people'? This happened before Aerith was taken, it had nothing to do with her at all. Is Barret's opinion of Cloud going to improve because he sees that all he cares about is Aerith? "Oh, you don't care about me or Tifa or anyone but Aerith, I have a better opinion of you now"? Are we expected to believe that Barret would applaud Cloud for only caring about one other person he just met?
According to Barret, Cloud fighting on the pillar *doesn't* show Cloud fighting for other people because he says Aerith seems to be the first person Cloud is willing to fight for.
But I guess I need to clarify a few things:
Cloud showed care for others *PRIOR* to Aerith being introduced and *AFTER* Aerith was introduced.
However, Cloud grew up to be very anti-social, somewhat of a jerk, and put up a, "cocky front".
To me, Aerith entering Cloud's life caused him to change this behavior and slowly drop his, "cocky front," which is one of the reasons I support Cloud x Aerith. I think Aerith, in particular, facilitated this change in Cloud's behavior. This doesn't mean that Cloud didn't care for others, it simply means that I think Aerith (in particular) helped cause this transformation in adult/Jenova-controlled Cloud.
Why does Tifa include herself in the end of FFVII, if this is Cloud saying he wants to see Aerith alone? Why does Cloud not say anything to turn her down or correct her? The Ultimania Omega states that they are both going to go see Aerith. Why are they both going, if Cloud's statement is meant to be an indication of romance? Does Tifa have romantic feelings for Aerith too?
1. Just as Cloud doesn't tell Tifa he doesn't want her visiting Aerith's Church with him, he also doesn't tell Tifa he doesn't want her going with him to the Promised Land to meet Aerith. Cloud specially says, "I think I can meet her... there"
2. What quote are you referring to in the Ultimania Omega that says both Cloud and Tifa were going to see Aerith in the Promised Land?
Why would Cloud and Tifa being together be something Nojima was sure of when writing AC (Reunion Files)? Everyone being 'living back home where they belong'? (Not where they were 'introduced' as this doesn't apply to most of the characters.) Seventh Heaven being the 'homebase of AVALANCHE' doesn't make sense because the new Seventh Heaven wasn't created to be a base for AVALANCHE, it was made to help people dealing with life after Meteor. Tifa was initially hesitant about starting another bar/restaurant because she didn't want to go back to the way things were in the past.
Don't you find it curious that the three remaining members of AVALANCHE are living at Seventh Heaven?
Obviously the new Seventh Heaven was created to help people deal with their life after Meteor. But which characters needed Seventh Heaven to call home after Meteor? The same three characters that were apart of AVALANCHE and considered Seventh Heaven home-base.
To me, this tells us that Cloud and Tifa living at Seventh Heaven (in particular) doesn't really support the idea of a romantic relationship existing between them (especially because Cloud has his own room with a bed in it).
Again, Barret is excluded there. Nojima doesn't say he was sure 'Cloud, Tifa, and Barret' would be together. Barret is removed from the household before long. Where he belongs isn't the 'homebase of AVALANCHE', apparently.
I've already gone over this before: “After visiting various locations with Tifa and Barret, Tifa opened the “Seventh Heaven” bar. Before setting off on a journey, Barret left Marlene in Cloud and Tifa’s care, and the three of them began living together.” ~Case of Tifa
It says that the, “three of them [Cloud, Tifa, Marlene]” began *living* together *AFTER* Barret set off on a “journey”.
This unequivocally proves that when the words “live”/”living”/”lived” are used to describe Cloud, Tifa, Marlene, and Denzel, it is ONLY excluding Barret because Barret is not TECHNICALLY “living” with them.
PS: Does a Father who is away on work cease to be apart of his family?
Cloud and Tifa's living together is mentioned in the same breath as them realising their feelings for each other (CC Ultimania). Why would those two things be in the same sentence if there is no connection between the two statements?
'realising their feelings for each other' would be the highwind scene. it purposely juxtaposes realising their feelings with them living together. it's only about cloud and tifa, no mention of barret. their feelings for each other are tied in with their living together.
That's simply a summary of what happened in the narrative: they express mutual feelings, and then live together. It doesn't say they live together *because* of those mutual feelings.
And even if they did live together because of their mutual feelings, it is obvious that their relationship starts to breakdown. This becomes very clear when Tifa doesn't know if Cloud loves her.
--------------------
EDIT:
Question:After Cloud tells Aerith going in Don's mansion alone would be too dangerous, what prompts him to think of ways to get in? Answer:Aerith asking, "Do you want to go with me?"
Question:What causes Cloud to put aside his reservations about being a man and causing too much of a commotion? Answer:Aerith's safety ("But, I just can't let you go in alone...")
Question:Who comes up with the idea to dress Cloud up like a woman? Answer:Aerith.
Everything goes around in cycles. We're bound to find old arguments being rerun. Myself, I keep waiting for the day when 'thuggish Tifa' makes a reappearance.
I did. Unfortunately. I also read your post in which you said that the "wavers" quote is proof that Cloud cares for Aerith even while you insisted that the same didn't apply to Tifa.
I did. Unfortunately. I also read your post in which you said that the "wavers" quote is proof that Cloud cares for Aerith even while you insisted that the same didn't apply to Tifa.
What was unfortunate about that post? Cloud was clearly thinking about saving Aerith during that conversation, which is why it dawns on Tifa that saving Aerith is why Cloud abruptly left.
What else could Cloud have been thinking about during that conversation?
Why would SE have Tifa make the observation that Aerith was the reason Cloud left if that's not what they wanted us to think?
Furthermore, Cloud *DOES* rescue Aerith, which tells us that he was, in-fact, thinking about saving her.
PS: Cloud can and does care for Tifa. I just dislike it when Danseru-kun uses optional evidence while simultaneously condemning optional evidence that turns out to be canon.
Why wouldn't Cloud be thinking about rescuing Aerith? He just spent over 900 hours trying to make sure she wasn't in danger, and then he dropped a bollock and she ended up being captured. Nobody is denying that Cloud wanted to rescue her, just that wanting to rescue somebody that YOU caused to be put in danger is the action of an good honest responsible person. An Hero.
He didn't want to rescue her just because he got a tingle in his special place.
That you used a quote that says Cloud wavers between the women to prove that Cloud loves Aerith yet you refuse to acknowledge that he might have rescued Tifa cause he cares about her
Why wouldn't Cloud be thinking about rescuing Aerith? He just spent over 900 hours trying to make sure she wasn't in danger, and then he dropped a bollock and she ended up being captured. Nobody is denying that Cloud wanted to rescue her, just that wanting to rescue somebody that YOU caused to be put in danger is the action of an good honest responsible person. An Hero.
He didn't want to rescue her just because he got a tingle in his special place.
From the beginning, Cloud was worried about Aerith's safety. He agreed to protect her from the Turks, he tried leaving her at her house because he worried for her safety, and he decided to dress up as a woman so Aerith wouldn't have to go in Don's mansion alone.
When you compare all of this behavior to the Cloud we met at the beginning of the game, it is a very different Cloud. It seems that while around was Aerith, Cloud dropped his, "cocky front" and started to show care for another person -- Aerith.
The pinnacle of this occurs when Cloud decides to rescue Aerith from the Shinra headquarters. Although you can argue that he rescued her because he felt responsible for her predicament, I don't think the Cloud we met at the beginning of the game would have cared.
To me, Aerith brought out the caring side of Cloud over and over again. Barret simply observes that Aerith seems to be the first person that is able to show us who is truly underneath Cloud's, "cocky front".
Nothing very elaborate. It was just someone on gamefaqs claiming that Tifa, a martial artist, was too much of a thug for Cloud to ever deign to fall in love with, especially when compared to Aerith, a magic-user.
Nothing very elaborate. It was just someone on gamefaqs claiming that Tifa, a martial artist, was too much of a thug for Cloud to ever deign to fall in love with, especially when compared to Aerith, a magic-user.
That you used a quote that says Cloud wavers between the women to prove that Cloud loves Aerith yet you refuse to acknowledge that he might have rescued Tifa cause he cares about her
There are plenty of example that show us Cloud cares for Tifa. But did Cloud rescue Tifa from Don's mansion because Cloud was wavering towards Tifa? Sadly, I think Cloud was still wavering towards Aerith at that point because the script tells us so. Cloud only went inside Don's mansion because he didn't want Aerith to go alone. And remember, Cloud had just spent a significant amount of one-on-one time with Aerith prior to the rescue of Tifa.
As has been pointed out before -- Cloud didn't have all of his memories associated with Tifa during disc 1. So was Cloud wavering to Tifa when he decided to sneak in Don's mansion? I don't think so. I think he was still wavering towards Aerith at this point -- and the script backs me up.
in all seriousness, he cared for them both, stop putting down his feelings for Tifa, it's just silly at this point. Do you really think that had that cart gone by with Tifa in it and Aerith had NOT been there, Cloud would have just let Tifa go? Really?
Its not silly. Its pretty sad tbh that someone has to go to such extremes that they have to validate something so arbitrary and honestly pointless on a daily basis.
Its not silly. Its pretty sad tbh that someone has to go to such extremes that they have to validate something so arbitrary and honestly pointless on a daily basis.
Cloud only went to the Forgotten City to protect Tifa. She had to convince Cloud go to. If she hadn't convinced him, he would have let Aerith go by herself. Seems to me he was wavering toward Tifa then.
To me, Aerith brought out the caring side of Cloud over and over again. Barret simply observes that Aerith seems to be the first person that is able to show us who is truly underneath Cloud's, "cocky front".
Given how often you distort what the script actually says (tl;dr: Barret doesn't say that), why do you ever even bother quoting it? Why don't you literally just make up a whole new story for FFVII in which Cloud ignores Tifa -- or hell, one in which Tifa isn't even a character?
in all seriousness, he cared for them both, stop putting down his feelings for Tifa, it's just silly at this point. Do you really think that had that cart gone by with Tifa in it and Aerith had NOT been there, Cloud would have just let Tifa go? Really?
You can *ASSUME* Cloud would have rescued Tifa without Aerith. And although I don't completely disagree with that assumption, THE SCRIPT TELLS US AERITH IS THE REASON CLOUD DID IT. That's the part you are overlooking. The script tells us, point blank, that Aerith is the reason Cloud decided to go in Don's mansion. Your hypotheticals are pointless because the script gives us the answer.
The reason I believe that if Aerith had not been there Cloud may have not rescued Tifa is because he realizes he's a guy, and that busting in would cause, "too much of a commotion". These two reasons would have left Cloud at a standstill. But who thinks of an alternative plan? Aerith. If Aerith had not been there to think of the alternative plan, Cloud may have very well given up.
In addition, if Cloud had been alone, Aerith's safety wouldn't have been a concern and thus, Cloud would have had no reason to put aside his reservations about being a guy and causing too much commotion. Cloud determined that Aerith's safety was his priority above all else -- he did not want her to go in Don's mansion, "alone". So...there's no need to consider the "wavers" quote in a situation where the script gives us the answer.
Cloud also says in Dismantled regarding Aerith's rescue: "I need to get in the Shinra building. I need to rescue her……by all means!"
Where does Cloud ever say that about rescuing Tifa? Again -- only after putting Aerith's safety as his priority does he decide to go in Don's mansion.
PS: People put down Cloud's feelings for Aerith all the time -- downplaying his conversation with Marlene, saying agreeing to a date means nothing romantic, that the wedding prediction becoming "more painful" after Aerith's death couldn't possibly tell us that Cloud and Aerith had the potential to get married, or that Tifa's jealously has no basis in reality because Cloud really didn't like Aerith, etc. etc.
Given how often you distort what the script actually says (tl;dr: Barret doesn't say that), why do you ever even bother quoting it? Why don't you literally just make up a whole new story for FFVII in which Cloud ignores Tifa -- or hell, one in which Tifa isn't even a character?
Cloud: I didn't want to start a ruckus till we saved Aerith. I should have known that was impossible though…
Barret: Heh, heh, heh.
Cloud: What is it? You're givin' me the willies.
Barret: So there are times when even you fight for other people. I am impressed.
Cloud: Who cares if you're impressed…?
Barret says, "So there are times when even you fight for other people. I am impressed."
To me, this signals that the caring Cloud is finally breaking through his, "cocky front". And it's breaking through for one person in particular -- Aerith.
Interestingly, Aerith was able to evoke this side from Cloud since the moment he fell in her Church (Cloud protected her from the Turks, he tried to leave her at home because he worried for her safety, he didn't want her going in Don's mansion alone, and he even decided to infiltrate Shinra's headquarters to rescue her).
*~*~*~*~Maybe she put some kind of Cetra spell on him*~*~*~*~
or maybe he just really, really, really, really liked her
was ffvii actually twilight and i just didn't realise
was cloud a big douchebag like edward cullen who puts his love (at first sight) ahead of everyone else
i mean, we aren't talking about a character flaw or failing or weakness. this isn't like advent children where it's cloud's issues that make him hesitate to rescue the kids.
this is apparently just cloud not caring enough unless aerith is involved. and we're supposed to see this and think... good for you, cloud? well done on being so self-interested that you will leave someone you may or may not care about (this is clerith cloud, he could just care about money) in danger. until the 'only person he cares about besides himself' decides to rescue this woman she doesn't know. then he'll do anything.
this is aerith's perfect match? a man who is willing to let a woman he knew from childhood stay in the hands of a man who makes women prostitute themselves to him? a man whose only concern (beyond himself) is her and no one else? that he would leave another woman in potential danger right in front of her?
(then again, she starts to travel around the world with two others who only saved her in the shinra building because cloud was going for the only other person he cares about and they're both mindless followers. she has terrible judgement when it comes to people. just look at her first love, the serial cheater and liar zack.)
if you look at the script (and i mean just look at it at face value), aerith isn't going to rescue tifa. she doesn't say, i'll go save tifa. she just says she going to go in, and tell tifa about cloud. i mean, if you have to specifically say 'i'm going to rescue tifa', well. aerith doesn't do that. she's apparently just going to tell tifa about her and go.
unless you read between the lines, and figure that cloud would have probably done something to save tifa. even if no one says 'i am going to rescue tifa now'. because he isn't a total monster.
Again, you're suggesting that Barret has just said that Cloud, the man Tifa has feelings for, only seems to care about Aerith. No one else, not even her. Tifa shows jealousy about Aerith's relationship with Cloud, something she will do not long after this scene.
Yet Barret says this right in front of her, and her only reaction is to laugh because Barret is stubborn and he's changing his mind? That's all Tifa took from this?
Or maybe you've taken it wrong.
According to Barret, Cloud fighting on the pillar *doesn't* show Cloud fighting for other people because he says Aerith seems to be the first person Cloud is willing to fight for.
No, according to you that's what Barret says. This is your limited reading of the line, which you've twisted around from what it originally said, and you're asserting that it has this one meaning.
All he says is that sometimes even Cloud fights for others. That's exactly what he says. He doesn't say 'I guess Aerith is the first person you care about and will fight for'. He says 'even you will fight for someone else/other people sometimes'.
The fight on the pillar can count towards Cloud fighting for others, because that's exactly what it was. Cloud fighting for others. For Barret, AVALANCHE, the people in the slums.
If Cloud only cares about Aerith and will only fight for her, why did he fight on the pillar? Why did he send Aerith away, alone, into a dangerous and panic-stricken area, if her safety is all that matters to him?
1. Just as Cloud doesn't tell Tifa he doesn't want her visiting Aerith's Church with him, he also doesn't tell Tifa he doesn't want her going with him to the Promised Land to meet Aerith. Cloud specially says, "I think I can meet her... there"
2. What quote are you referring to in the Ultimania Omega that says both Cloud and Tifa were going to see Aerith in the Promised Land?
Again, this is the end of the game. The end of the story. So you're saying they finished the story with Cloud saying "I want to go be with Aerith" and Tifa replying "let's go" and Cloud just shuts up. This isn't brought up after this, that's the last time it's talked about.
So we're left with Tifa inviting herself along, with Cloud not saying anything because...? He's spineless? Doesn't have the guts to tell her the truth? He just lets her, in the story's final moments, think she is going to be a part of this adventure of his?
It was written that way for a reason. What reason is that? Is the final message the creators wanted people to have is that Tifa is some pathetic character who can't take a hint? We're left with that image of Tifa at the end of the game? This isn't like leaving questions unanswered such as 'did humanity survive?'. This is just Cloud stating his romantic intentions, and Tifa forcing herself into this intimate situation? To which Cloud says nothing? It's ridiculous.
What is the picture of these characters that we are supposed to have, if this is the way you're meant to read the scene?
The Ultimania Omega quote is on page 27, in a note for the final battle in Tifa's profile:
After defeating Sephiroth, Tifa attempts to escape from the crumbling depths of the Northern Cave with Cloud. When Cloud says that he thinks he understands the meaning of 'the Promised Land' and can meet [her] there, she smiles and says 'let's go meet her'. The person they are going to see is of course Aerith. And as for the Promised Land...
This wasn't in Cloud's profile, this was in Tifa's. If Tifa isn't going, why not just put this in Cloud's profile? Or Aerith's? (Apart from the fact that they had her saying 'let's go meet her' which already suggests they are both going. That's basic reading comprehension.)
The same three characters that were apart of AVALANCHE and considered Seventh Heaven home-base.
(It's 'a part of'. 'Apart' has the opposite meaning.)
“After visiting various locations with Tifa and Barret, Tifa opened the “Seventh Heaven” bar. Before setting off on a journey, Barret left Marlene in Cloud and Tifa’s care, and the three of them began living together.” ~Case of Tifa
It says that the, “three of them [Cloud, Tifa, Marlene]” began *living* together *AFTER* Barret set off on a “journey”.
This unequivocally proves that when the words “live”/”living”/”lived” are used to describe Cloud, Tifa, Marlene, and Denzel, it is ONLY excluding Barret because Barret is not TECHNICALLY “living” with them.
PS: Does a Father who is away on work cease to be apart of his family?
That doesn't really explain why Nojima knew that 'Cloud and Tifa would be together' and not Barret, who spends the majority of the story we've seen away from them. Or the other quote, which isn't talking about Marlene or Denzel. Both just mention Cloud and Tifa.
No, that doesn't suddenly mean Barret is suddenly isn't part of the family. But Barret living there also doesn't influence Cloud and Tifa having a relationship or not. He can live there, even if it is only occasionally, without cancelling out any chance that there's something between Cloud and Tifa. He's not just around to either back up Cloud and Aerith, or to cockblock Cloud and Tifa. Having another person around doesn't mean a relationship can't start.
That's simply a summary of what happened in the narrative: they express mutual feelings, and then live together. It doesn't say they live together *because* of those mutual feelings.
And even if they did live together because of their mutual feelings, it is obvious that their relationship starts to breakdown. This becomes very clear when Tifa doesn't know if Cloud loves her.
They mention both these things, in one sentence, just to tell you two unrelated things that happen? It's just some disjointed sentence of unconnected facts? Is that 'looking at the big picture'? They realise their feelings, and on a totally unrelated note that we won't put in its own sentence or anything, they live together in AC and DC for reasons.
OtWtaS isn't a standalone story. It doesn't end well, but it was never meant to stand on its own, it's meant to supplement AC. Together they form one story. And that's how stories go, there are usually problems and then they are usually worked out in the end. In the case of AC, you have the start (OtWtaS: Cloud and Tifa start living together after realising their feelings), then some kind of conflict arises (OtWtaS: Cloud begins to distance himself and their relationship becomes strained), but their problems are eventually resolved (AC: Cloud overcomes his fear and guilt and returns home). In the same quote, it says they live together during AC and DC, which means that Cloud returns to living with Tifa. That's a simple, easy to understand progression.
