The Love Triangle Debate thread of KNEEL BEFORE ZOD OR SUFFER HIS WRATH (ignore the opening posts at your peril) (Round 6)

[Octo]

I'm near hysterical about that 'alternative interpretation' of the end sequence.

It's like....I dunno. The end of the Shawshank Redemption, where Red finally finds Andy on the beach in Mexico only Andy then says "Uh Jeez....this is awkward. I was only being polite when I said you should join me. To be honest I thought you'd die in jail" AWKWARD! FILM ENDS!

 

[Danseru-kun]

It pisses me off that you would continue to say Barret's observation is optional (even though Dismantled makes it canon) while at the same time using optional evidence.

So which is it: did you not know your evidence was optional, or did you just hope I wouldn't find out?

1. I know the evidence is optional
2. I know you'd find out and try to use it against me because it's convenient for you to rebut the optional rather than the point of our posts
3. Doesn't matter because they're not everything I have
4. Answer Hito

I did acknowledge they're optional, but just because two lines are optional it doesn't mean the rest are. There's still the fact that he rescues Tifa from Don and wanted Aerith to go home.

Cloud "Tifa!?" (The carriage drives out and the gate closes.)
Aerith "That girl in the cart was Tifa? Where was she going? She looked kind of odd..." (She hops down and chases the cart.)
Cloud "Wait!" "I'll go on alone! You go home!"

And Aerith herself acknowledging this.

Cloud "Aerith! I can't....." Aerith "You ARE worried about Tifa, aren't you? Then come on, hurry!"

Cloud "You alright?" (Aerith stands up.)
Aerith "Yeah." (He walks over to Tifa.)
Cloud "You alright?"
Tifa "Man! This is terrible."

Cloud clearly cares for Wedge, and fights for Barret's sake.

Cloud "Wedge!! You all right!?"
Wedge ".......Cloud...... You remembered..... my name. Barret's up top. ...help him....... An' Cloud.... Sorry, I wasn't any help." (Cloud, after a silent pause, stands.)
Cloud "I'm going up! Aerith! You look after Wedge."

Answer Hito

@Quex

yep it's here

Tifa "Cloud, it'll be all right. We're all with you."
Cloud "But..."
Barret "If it happens, it happens. Don't worry 'bout it." (Cloud crosses his arms for a moment and thinks.)
Cloud "...You're... right. ......He's right, isn't he?"
Tifa "Come on, let's go and find Aerith...?" (They all leave Gongaga village.)

 

[Strangelove]

I don't see the problem with using optional dialogue to analyse the characters and story. You might not be able to say that this specific event happened in the 'official' record of things, which options Cloud canonically picked. But the dialogue and responses still tell you things about how the characters think and feel.

 

[BlankBeat]

1. I know the evidence is optional
2. I know you'd find out and try to use it against me because it's convenient for you to rebut the optional rather than the point of our posts
3. Doesn't matter because they're not everything I have

1. If you knew your evidence was optional, why did you continue to point out that Barret's observation was optional? It seems very shady to use optional evidence while pointing out that my evidence was optional (even though Dismantled canonizes Barret's observation).

2. You are the one who brought up the topic of optionality by claiming Barret's observation was optional. So...I guess it's easier for *YOU* to say something is optional rather than debate the point. Don't try to twist this around on me, Danseru.

There's still the fact that he rescues Tifa from Don and wanted Aerith to go home.

Cloud wanted to see where the carriage was taking Tifa. Once he found out where the carriage took Tifa, he expressed no interest in rescuing Tifa until Aerith asked if Cloud wanted to go with her inside Don's mansion.

The script tells us Cloud went inside Don's mansion because he didn't want Aerith to go alone.

And Aerith herself acknowledging this.

But we know from Cloud's own words why he decided to go inside Don's mansion -- he didn't want Aerith to go alone.

Aerith's observation vs. Cloud's own words.
hmmmm....

--------------------

Strangelove, I will have to get to your post later.

 

[Danseru-kun]

1. If you knew your evidence was optional, why did you continue to point out that Barret's observation was optional? It seems very shady to use optional evidence while pointing out that my evidence was optional (even though Dismantled canonizes Barret's observation).

2. You are the one who brought up the topic of optionality by claiming Barret's observation was optional. So...I guess it's easier for *YOU* to say something is optional rather than debate the point. Don't try to twist this around on me, Danseru.

It's because I don't consider Dismantled canon, it is ignored by SE and Crisis Core outright bulldoze some statements there. That's very simple. For the sake of a flowing discussion I just let it slip. LOL at twisting around.

Cloud wanted to see where the carriage was taking Tifa. Once he found out where the carriage took Tifa, he expressed no interest in rescuing Tifa

until Aerith asked if Cloud wanted to go with her inside Don's mansion.

The script tells us Cloud went inside Don's mansion because he didn't want Aerith to go alone.

But we know from Cloud's own words why he decided to go inside Don's mansion -- he didn't want Aerith to go alone.

Aerith's observation vs. Cloud's own words.

Now Aerith is unreliable? You conveniently select lines that will support your dick!Cloud argument don't you?

This is the scipt:

Cloud "But, I just can't let you go in alone... Oh, man...... "First, we'll need to find out if Tifa's alright.... What's so funny, Aerith?"
Aerith "Cloud, why don't you dress up like a girl? It's the only way."
Cloud "WHAT!?" (Aerith speaks to the doorman.)
Aerith "Just wait. I've got a cute friend I want to bring." Cloud "Aerith! I can't....."
Aerith "You ARE worried about Tifa, aren't you? Then come on, hurry!"

He's worried about both of them. You pointed out the dialogue with the lingerie is optional, but the fact remains that Cloud is willing to wear that thong for Tifa's sake, if it's to save her.

Besides Tifa, answer the part where Cloud goes up to help Barret at the pillar and entrusts Wedge to Aerith.

Answer Hito. Adding more to this discussion let's you conveniently choose the points easiest for you to answer. So bye for now.

 

[BlankBeat]

Nomura, concerning Aerith's death:

"Back at the time we were designing the game, I was frustrated with the perennial cliche where the protagonist loves someone very much and has to sacrifice himself and die in a dramatic fashion to express that love. We found this was the case in both games and movies, both eastern and western. But I wanted to say something different, something realistic. I mean, is it right to set such an example to people?"

Nomura talks about *AVOIDING* the cliche' where the, "protagonist loves someone very much and has to sacrifice himself and die in a dramatic fashion to express that love." So how did they avoid the cliche'? Instead of having the protagonist die, they had the person the protagonist was in love with die.

Kitase follows that up with this:

"In the real world, things are very different. You just need to look around you. Nobody wants to die that way. People die of disease and accident. Death comes suddenly and there is no notion of good or bad attached to it. It leaves, not a dramatic feeling, but a feeling of emptiness. When you lose someone you loved very much you feel this big empty space and think 'If I had known this was coming I would have done things differently.' These are the feelings I wanted to arouse in the players with Aerith's death relatively early in the game. Feelings of reality and not Hollywood."

Kitase wanted to express, through Aerith's death, what it feels like when you lose someone that you, "LOVED VERY MUCH". Then, he releates it directly to Cloud by saying sometimes people think, "If I had known this was coming I would have done things differently". It is obvious that Cloud's love for Aerith and her death was meant to highlight exactly what Kitase wanted to convey.



How did I not know about these quotes before? This should make it undeniable that the intent of Cloud and Aerith's relationship was a tragic *LOVE* story.

 

[Strangelove]

Having one tragic love story doesn't stop another from developing later.

How does the former remain tragic if it somehow manages to overcome that tragedy? Doesn't that dilute the feeling they were hoping to invoke, by having it all hand-waved away with 'it's a fantasy world, death doesn't matter'?

 

[BlankBeat]

It's because I don't consider Dismantled canon, it is ignored by SE and Crisis Core outright bulldoze some statements there. That's very simple. For the sake of a flowing discussion I just let it slip. LOL at twisting around.

You didn't answer my question:
Why did you provide optional evidence while at the same time try to dismiss my evidence based on optionality?

And it makes sense you wouldn't accept Dismantled -- it provides a lot of evidence in favor of Cloud x Aerith.

The bottom line is: Going through the front door has absolutely zero evidence behind it (at least to my knowledge). So at least there is some sort of proof that taking the stairs is the canon outcome.

Now Aerith is unreliable? You conveniently select lines that will support your dick!Cloud argument don't you?

Aerith's observation goes directly against Cloud's own words. How do you not understand that?

He's worried about both of them. You pointed out the dialogue with the lingerie is optional, but the fact remains that Cloud is willing to wear that thong for Tifa's sake, if it's to save her.

Cloud never expresses worry over Tifa. He only expresses worry over Aerith. He expresses worry over Aerith two times:

1. Aerith: "Hey, this looks like the Don's mansion. I'll go take a look. I'll tell Tifa about you."
Cloud: "No!! You can't!!"

2. Cloud: "But, I just can't let you go in alone... "

The reason Cloud agrees to go in Don's mansion is because he doesn't want Aerith to risk her safety and go, "alone". It's all there in the script.

I have non-optional proof that Cloud cares for Aerith's safety.
You have optional proof that Cloud cares for Tifa's safety.

Bottom line: Cloud agrees to go in Don's mansion so Aerith doesn't have to go alone.

EDIT: I actually have more non-optional proof that Cloud cares for Aerith's safety:

--Cloud agrees to protect her from the Turks.
--Cloud tries to leave Aerith in the middle of the night so she doesn't face more danger.
--Cloud tries to tell Aerith not to follow Tifa's carriage.
--Cloud: "I need to get in Shinra building. I need to rescue her……by all means!" ~Dismantled

(But of course you don't accept Dismantled...ROFL)

 

[Knuxson]

This whole conversation makes me want to...

Spoiler

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

This whole discussion is fucking bananas. It might as well be this:

 

[Danseru-kun]

You didn't answer my question:
Why did you provide optional evidence while at the same time try to dismiss my evidence based on optionality?

It's not about dismissing the evidence you have, it's about pointing out your double standards. And I never dismissed Barret's line, it can be canon all you want, I'm contesting your argument that it proves Cloud never cared about anyone except Aerith.

And it makes sense you wouldn't accept Dismantled -- it provides a lot of evidence in favor of Cloud x Aerith.

False. I don't accept it because it's not canon.

Aerith's observation goes directly against Cloud's own words. How do you not understand that?

It does not.

Cloud never expresses worry over Tifa. He only expresses worry over Aerith. He expresses worry over Aerith two times:

You have optional proof that Cloud cares for Tifa's safety.

Not all that I listed are optional BB. Rescuing Tifa from Don is not optional. Oh yeah it's just because he doesn't want Aerith to go alone. Cloud's such a dick.

Bottom line: Cloud agrees to go in Don's mansion so Aerith doesn't have to go alone.

True but it doesn't negate his worry over Tifa too. He's worried at both of them.

EDIT: I actually have more non-optional proof that Cloud cares for Aerith's safety:

--Cloud agrees to protect her from the Turks.
--Cloud tries to leave Aerith in the middle of the night so she doesn't face more danger.
--Cloud tries to tell Aerith not to follow Tifa's carriage.
--Cloud: "I need to get in Shinra building. I need to rescue her……by all means!" ~Dismantled

Of course he cares about Aerith, nobody in this debate actually thinks he doesn't. You don't need to provide me with evidences. It's a fact that he cares for her. He'll risk his life for her. He is undeniably anguished at her death

The only problem in this debate is you're not willing to accept he'll do the same for Tifa and Tifa won't do the same for Aerith.

(But of course you don't accept Dismantled...ROFL)

Why is it funny? Because when SE confirmed their canon line-up they didn't include it? Because it says Aerith met Zack while selling flowers and we know this is not true? I don't consider Last Order canon because it's not, even if it has good Cloti moments.

Even if the Barret line is not optional, you still didn't answer the fact that Cloud fought for Barret at the pillar.

Ok seriously, bye for now. Answer Hito and the point about Barret.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

The only problem in this debate is you're not willing to accept he'll do the same for Tifa and Tifa won't do the same for Aerith.

Cloud didn't mean to risk -- and lose -- his life against Chaos for Tifa's sake in Dissidia 012. It was a mistake 'cause his memories were foggy and he thought she was Aerith.

And Tifa clearly didn't care about Cloud since she lost her memories of him. Aerith wouldn't have forgotten.

 

[Geostigma]

This whole discussion is fucking bananas. It might as well be this:

The sad thing is Blankbeat thinks WE are the donkey

 

[Sikozu]

This is SOME underwear... I'm supposed to wear this...?
Well, if it's to save Tifa... I guess there's no way around.

This is optional, but it still tells you what's on Cloud's mind. If all he cared about was Aerith, wouldn't he be saying something like "Well I have to wear it in order to accompany Aerith and keep her safe."

I just don't get why you have such a problem with Cloud wanting to help and protect people other than Aerith.

 

[BlankBeat]

It's not about dismissing the evidence you have, it's about pointing out your double standards. And I never dismissed Barret's line, it can be canon all you want, I'm contesting your argument that it proves Cloud never cared about anyone except Aerith.

All I want to know is: why did you point out that Barret's observation was optional (in order to dismiss it) while at the same time providing optional evidence?

Do you honestly not understand how hypocritical and shady that is?

False. I don't accept it because it's not canon.

All I'm saying is that Dismantled gives evidence in support of taking the stairs. On the contrary, there's *NO* evidence in support of barging in through the front door.

It does not.

Cloud: "No!! You can't!!"
Cloud: "But, I just can't let you go in alone..."

vs.

Aerith: "You ARE worried about Tifa, aren't you? Then come on, hurry!"

Cloud statements tell us he is worried about Aerith, *NOT* Tifa.

Rescuing Tifa from Don is not optional. Oh yeah it's just because he doesn't want Aerith to go alone. Cloud's such a dick.

True but it doesn't negate his worry over Tifa too. He's worried at both of them.

I honestly believe that without Aerith, Cloud would have decided he wouldn't be able to rescue Tifa because he's a guy and because barraging in would have caused too much of a ruckus (he admits to this).

What caused Cloud to go in Don's mansion?
1. Aerith asked Cloud if he wanted to go with her.
2. Cloud didn't want Aerith to to, "alone".
3. Aerith came up with a plan to dress Cloud up like a woman.

If Cloud had not been concerned for Aerith's safety, and if Aerith had not thought of dressing Cloud of like a woman, I honestly believe Cloud would have determined that he wouldn't be able to rescue Tifa (this is based on his conclusion that he's a man and that barging in would cause too much of a commotion).

Until you can provide me with evidence that he was going to rescue her no matter what, you have nothing.

Of course he cares about Aerith, nobody in this debate actually thinks he doesn't. You don't need to provide me with evidences. It's a fact that he cares for her. He'll risk his life for her. He is undeniably anguished at her death

The only problem in this debate is you're not willing to accept he'll do the same for Tifa and Tifa won't do the same for Aerith.

You are the one who made it a point to show that Cloud cared for Tifa during disc 1. I'm simply challenging you on your "evidence". If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen.

Even if the Barret line is not optional, you still didn't answer the fact that Cloud fought for Barret at the pillar.

Then why does Barret still make his observation?

 

[Dashell]

Cloud never expresses worry over Tifa. He only expresses worry over Aerith.

No.. just... just no, my god did you PLAY the game? He expressed concern for her in Nibelheim, and whether you like it or not, he expresses concern for her when she went to see the Don, and as I said before, he went to The Forgotten City for a reason and according to the script, it wasn't Aerith. ... ugh I haven't played the game in so long but I know there's others... and uhm again is this JUST FFVII or can we go into other compilation titles?



god


fuck it




just posts like that really piss me off. How dare you say Cloud NEVER expresses concern for Tifa. He expresses concern for OTHER people as well, just fucking stop trying to make Aerith be the only one he cares about... it's just disgusting at this point

 

[Dashell]

Oh and your "Nomura doesn't know" quote?... well in another magazine AFTER he said that Nomura says AC firmly grasps Tifa and Cloud's relationship... so he obviously DOES know



Your "doesn't know" quote is now null and void

 

[Shademp]

To repeat myself (then again isn't everything a repeat in this thread?) I find it interesting just how tough it is to interpret the love triangle dynamic. There is good reason that Tres has had to write a BOOK about the matter. For those not academically invested in the discussion, the interpretation can go either way.

One example is this WarpZone video "Top 5 Friend Zones in Video Games". See 1:45 - 3:22, to hear how the video places "Cloud & Tifa" on 4th spot in top five friend zones, with Cloud apparently having friend-zoned Tifa.

True, it's supposed to be a comedy video and it could be filled with more irony than I'm picking up, but it looks like the maker of the video truly does interpret the FFVII titles as Cloud having friendzoned Tifa. Honestly I'm not surprised because, again, the character dynamics and settings are too vague for me. Reminds me of the FFVII video Spoony did many years ago, where he expressed great certainty that Cloud's final romantic choice was Aerith.

So for all the shit and nonsense this thread gets filled with...at least the LTD itself isn't entirely surprising.

 

[eleamaya]

Nomura, concerning Aerith's death:

Nomura talks about *AVOIDING* the cliche' where the, "protagonist loves someone very much and has to sacrifice himself and die in a dramatic fashion to express that love." So how did they avoid the cliche'? Instead of having the protagonist die, they had the person the protagonist was in love with die.

Kitase follows that up with this:

Kitase wanted to express, through Aerith's death, what it feels like when you lose someone that you, "LOVED VERY MUCH". Then, he releates it directly to Cloud by saying sometimes people think, "If I had known this was coming I would have done things differently". It is obvious that Cloud's love for Aerith and her death was meant to highlight exactly what Kitase wanted to convey.

How did I not know about these quotes before? This should make it undeniable that the intent of Cloud and Aerith's relationship was a tragic *LOVE* story.

Those quotes were made based on Nomura or Kitase (I forgot which who) whose his MOTHER died and that's their feeling, they want to tell and show about this feeling of loss. So this loved one is not always linked to romance.

Ah, btw, have you found the quotes I asked before?

 

[OniRaitei]

(But of course you don't accept Dismantled...ROFL)

If a reference book or other source of information conflicts or is irreconcilable with the primary media (video games in this case) through which a series is presented or it's creator(s), then the source of the suspect information is lower on the canonicity hierarchy.

Yes, it sounds very nerdy.

 

[Morana]

Cloud didn't mean to risk -- and lose -- his life against Chaos for Tifa's sake in Dissidia 012. It was a mistake 'cause his memories were foggy and he thought she was Aerith.

And Tifa clearly didn't care about Cloud since she lost her memories of him. Aerith wouldn't have forgotten.

After what I have just read here, this conclusion wouldn't surprise me at all. Ltd finally managed to make FFVII worse for me than Twilight. Bella and Edward are the most selfish fictional characters ever invented but they have nothing on BB's version of Aerith and Cloud.

 

[Akai Hana]

So, after a brief talk with my cousin last night, I asked her about this “Dismantled” book. She said she has a copy of it. FFVII Dismantling Revised 2000 from Digicube.

Apparently we only have the translation of this art book from clerith website; I asked my cousin if she could ship the book to me. She said yes but I’m not so sure when it will arrive at my doorstep maybe in another 3-4 weeks because she has to search for the book in her store room.

And Idk if someone on TLS is currently translating this book. If there is, then it’s good.

If there is none, I’m not sure if I’ll able to translate this book that good due to my poor English and rusty Japanese. I could ask my dad though but he will scold me for not concentrating in my study.

So whoever generous enough or interested to translate this book please tell me okay?

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

A few of us have the book. There's honestly nothing of interest that hasn't already been translated by myself, hito or Quexinos.

 

[Akai Hana]

Really? So I didn't have to ask my cousin to ship it to me then. There's no interesting in that book even after the revised version come out?

 

[Dashell]

A few of us have the book. There's honestly nothing of interest that hasn't already been translated by myself, hito or Quexinos.

Well not LTD related anyway... I haven't tried translating since that whole "ku" thing (Which I don't blame anyone for, BTW)


Maybe one day I'll look at it again, There were still some entries that haven't been done yet