The Love Triangle Debate thread of KNEEL BEFORE ZOD OR SUFFER HIS WRATH (ignore the opening posts at your peril) (Round 6)

[null]

Because it's a date?

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/begging-the-question

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

And are we forgetting that there WAS a girl brought up in Barret's date? MARLENE! The Barret date isn't about Cloud and Barret, it's about Cloud and Marlene...




...


I'm going to go take a shower now

Getting too steamy for you in here, Que?

...lol...you really believe that?

You don't?

Sprites: [makes sound point about why Cloud tried to keep the amateur fighter civilian whose magical lineage he knew nothing about out of a situation that could get her killed, acknowledging the dialogue right before and still not ignoring Cloud's established concern for and sense of duty where Tifa is concerned]
You (ideally): "I hadn't really thought about it that way. I guess it's not necessarily the case that he just didn't give a shit about Tifa and was only trying to keep the girl he had just fallen in love with safe."

Why would that lead to a back-and-forth?

Yes, it *MAY* supersede responses already awaiting my attention.

Given what a valuable observation it was, it kind of did, man.

LOL -- numerous posts of mine have been ignored. And although people come up with excuses for why my posts were ignored (I'm a liar, I'm a dishonest debater, etc.) -- the fact is, many of my posts have been ignored, too. Yet, you don't see me complaining about it or saying I deserve a "courtesy" response.

I was called fat and picked on in elementary school. That doesn't vindicate me if I decide to do it to someone else.

Huh?

I specifically told her I didn't respond because I was already debating with multiple people, but that I'd be happy to form a response to her post. So can we be done with this discussion now?

No. Are you debating points or people? Just because you feel like you've got too many people coming at you doesn't void a new, insightful observation that has been made shining light on what everyone is discussing. It would actually kind of take priority.


Here's another one:

Cloud doesn't continue protesting Aerith's involvement in dangerous affairs after this. Does this mean he has stopped caring about her afterward? Or does it mean he now cares about she and Tifa equally at this point?

Why does she get a bigger affection rating boost than anyone else if Cloud takes her into the dangerous situation of confronting Dyne, a known mass murderer? Is taking her into danger now an expression of love? Is she grateful that he now recognizes her competence and ability to look out for herself?

If it's the latter, why is this an expression of love when he does it for Aerith and an expression of favoritism toward Aerith when he does it with Tifa? Hell, choosing options that favor Aerith's safety over Tifa's increase Tifa's own affection rating while focusing on Tifa's safety decreases it. Looks like no matter who Cloud expresses concern for, it's actually all about Aerith, huh?

Why did Cloud take Aerith into the Temple of the Ancients knowing Sephiroth -- who had already taken his mother from him and nearly Tifa as well -- would be inside? Was he not wavering in her direction that day?

If he took her in because it involved her, was important to her and he knew she could fight at this point, why is Cloud focusing on the civilian's safety back at the Don's a slighting of Tifa when that situation involved her, was important to her and he knew she could fight before that point?

Why would Aerith having to coax Cloud into checking on Tifa in Wall Market (which isn't what actually happened, no matter how many times you say it is) mean he doesn't care about her while Tifa having to coax Cloud into going after Aerith at the Forgotten Capital (which is what actually happened) not mean that he doesn't care about Aerith?

Do you see yet what an inconsistent, self-contradicting clusterfuck of a tale you're trying to weave?

 

[Master Bates]

:direwolf:
Could someone please explain to me how the Cloud/Barret date is romantic? Thanks.

Well, it is. It's like Mei's father was reprimanding Tres for hitting on his daughter when she was still a toddler... or was it toddler Mei hitting on Tres? Anyway, romantic pedophilic love. Better than necrophilia.


And you guys are not following your own advice. You're all hopeless.

 

[BlankBeat]

Sprites: [makes sound point about why Cloud tried to keep the amateur fighter civilian whose magical lineage he knew nothing about out of a situation that could get her killed, acknowledging the dialogue right before and still not ignoring Cloud's established concern for and sense of duty where Tifa is concerned]
You (ideally): "I hadn't really thought about it that way. I guess it's not necessarily the case that he just didn't give a shit about Tifa and was only trying to keep the girl he had just fallen in love with safe."

Why would that lead to a back-and-forth?

Why would it lead to a back-and-forth? Because I don't agree with her post.

Knowing that I don't agree with everything her post says, I knew it would lead to a back-and-forth. Something I was trying to avoid since I was already involved with debating several posters.

Given what a valuable observation it was, it kind of did, man.

Thanks for your opinion.

I was called fat and picked on in elementary school. That doesn't vindicate me if I decide to do it to someone else.

What I'm saying is that you suggested I at the very least give Sprites a courtesy response, even though you haven't suggested that to anyone who has ignored my posts. It's a double standard.

And I thoroughly expect you to come up with an excuse to justify your hypocrisy and double standard, like I'm a horrible liar/troll, but the point is -- I continually get called out for ignoring posts even though people ignore posts all the time.

No. Are you debating points or people? Just because you feel like you've got too many people coming at you doesn't void a new, insightful observation that has been made shining light on what everyone is discussing. It would actually kind of take priority.

*YOU* view it as insightful, which is why *YOU* think it should take priority.

Again -- thank you for your opinion.

Cloud doesn't continue protesting Aerith's involvement in dangerous affairs after this. Does this mean he has stopped caring about her afterward? Or does it mean he now cares about she and Tifa equally at this point?

Because he's there to protect her and look after her. Which, he obviously fails at. But then, that's why he has so much guilt.

Why does she get a bigger affection rating boost than anyone else if Cloud takes her into the dangerous situation of confronting Dyne, a known mass murderer? Is taking her into danger now an expression of love? Is she grateful that he now recognizes her competence and ability to look out for herself?

If it's the latter, why is this an expression of love when he does it for Aerith and an expression of favoritism toward Aerith when he does it with Tifa? Hell, choosing options that favor Aerith's safety over Tifa's increase Tifa's own affection rating while focusing on Tifa's safety decreases it. Looks like no matter who Cloud expresses concern for, it's actually all about Aerith, huh?

There are two examples that show us Cloud put his concern for Aerith above his concern for Tifa. That's why I agree with Nojima when he suggests that things might have worked out better with Cloud and Aerith -- they are more compatible as shown when Cloud had the choice between the two during disc 1.

Why did Cloud take Aerith into the Temple of the Ancients knowing Sephiroth -- who had already taken his mother from him and nearly Tifa as well -- would be inside? Was he not wavering in her direction that day?

Because he thought he could protect her.

Cloud didn't think he would be able to protect Aerith if she went in Don's mansion alone, nor did he think he would be able to protect her if she joined in with Tifa's plan to trick Don.

I've already stated multiple times that Cloud did show care and concern for Tifa. Was it to the same level that he showed care and concern for Aerith? Absolutely not.

So when discussing the LTD, I think it is *VERY* relevant to compare how Cloud may show favor for one girl over the other to help determine who he likes more.

Why would Aerith having to coax Cloud into checking on Tifa in Wall Market (which isn't what actually happened, no matter how many times you say it is) mean he doesn't care about her while Tifa having to coax Cloud into going after Aerith at the Forgotten Capital (which is what actually happened) not mean that he doesn't care about Aerith?

Unlike when Cloud decided to infiltrate the Shinra headquarters, his trip to Don's mansion was unexpected. Cloud simply followed the cart Tifa was on, and eventually discovered she was in Don's mansion. It wasn't as though it was Cloud's intent, from the beginning, to rescue Tifa. Cloud's intent was to simply go back to the Seventh Heaven bar. Given this difference, it makes sense SE wouldn't view Tifa's rescue as comparable to Cloud's desire to rescue Aerith from the Shinra headquarters.

I'm not convinced that if Cloud had been alone, he would have entered Don's mansion after being told Don wasn't interested in men.

People keep pointing out that Cloud knew Tifa was an awesome fighter who could take care of herself. Cloud had already been on missions with Tifa and they had blown up reactors together. So, yes, Cloud may have very well turned around and said Tifa could take care of herself.

The bottom line is, we will never know if Cloud would have gone in if he had been alone. What we do know is that Aerith's safety and Aerith's creative plan is what led Cloud to entering Don's mansion. To me, this is yet another example of Cloud preferring Aerith and putting her safety above all els

As for the Forgotten Capital bit, I'll have to take a look at the script again.

 

[Dashell]

You're all hopeless.

The truest thing anyone has ever said in this thread

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

LOL -- numerous posts of mine have been ignored. And although people come up with excuses for why my posts were ignored (I'm a liar, I'm a dishonest debater, etc.) -- the fact is, many of my posts have been ignored, too. Yet, you don't see me complaining about it or saying I deserve a "courtesy" response.

You forgot "because most of what I say is regurgitated dribble that's been addressed and disproved countless times already and thus doesn't need to be addressed AGAIN" when you said that For instance,

Gym Leader Devil --

The fact that SE wanted to talk about as many romantic scenes as possible on the FTOIL page makes complete sense. By picturing the *canon* Clerith date and then discussing that there are 4 possible dates allows SE to achieve two goals -- they are able to give preferential treatment to the *canon* date because it's pictured, but they are also able to discuss as many romantic scenes as possible on the FTOIL page.

However, there is only *ONE* version of the Highwind scene that is appropriate to talk about and include on the FTOIL page, and that version is the HA version. The reason why the LA version is nowhere to be seen or mentioned on the FTOIL page is because it is not appropriate for it to be included. Why would the LA version be included? It's not romantic.

But even though the LA version was not appropriate to include on the FTOIL page, SE still includes a reference page that you can flip to that says there are *TWO* versions of the Highwind scene that depend on affection points.

But the bottom line is -- there are four romantic dates which are all referenced and represented on the FTOIL page (as they should be). But because there is only one romantic version of the Highwind scene, only the HA Highwind scene was referenced on the FTOIIL page.

But if you could get the HA Highwind scene with different characters (as you can for the date), you better believe that would have been included on the FTOIL page.

SE obviously pictured Cloud and Aerith because we are meant to apply the FTOIL more specifically to their *canon* date.

This is what was included in the "LTD over" article when commenting on the CxA date caption:
"Nothing so amazing, no, all it tells us is that the date itself is up to player control, so no one version is ‘official,’ but the next section is not only what hopefully will make for a swift end to the LTD, but also confirms a scenario I have been arguing in favor of for quite a number of years."

But my argument is that despite the caption not saying which version is official, we have evidence that the CxA date *IS* canon. Therefore, the caption is irrelevant.

The caption was simply there to represent *ALL* the dates on the FTOIL page because *ALL* the dates are romantic (ie: because they are *DATES*). But SE obviously pictured Cloud and Aerith's date because it is the *canon* date, and because we are meant to apply the FTOIL page more directly to their date.

Again -- the only reason one version of the Highwind scene was included on the FTOIL page is because it would have been inappropriate to discuss or include the LA version on a page titled "For The One I Love". But if you could get different characters for the HA Highwind scene, you better believe that would have been included on the FTOIL page.

The date simply can't be compared to the Highwind scene (or any other romantic scene on that page, for that matter) because you can get four characters for the date, whereas there's only one character you can get during the HA Highwind scene. So in order to include all the romantic dates on the FTOIL page while also giving special treatment to the *canon* date, SE mentioned all the dates in the caption and pictured Cloud x Aerith's date.

On the contrary, only the HA Highwind scene was included on the FTOIL page because that is the only appropriate version to include. Which is exactly why SE lists a reference page on the FTOIL page so people can find out that the HA version is not the *only* version, it is simply the only appropriate version to include on the FTOIL page.

But just because the caption under Cloud and Aerith's date doesn't mention anything about them specifically doesn't mean their date isn't canon. And it also doesn't mean that the Cloud x Aerith date doesn't tell us the exact same thing that the HA Highwind scene does, which is that Cloud has feelings of love for Aerith.

Again -- if you could get different characters for the HA Highwind scene, that would have been specified on the FTOIL page just like all the dates were.


But the page *DOES* picture Aerith.

Why did SE decide to give the Clerith date preferential treatment on the FTOIL page?

Wouldn't picturing the Clerith date suggest we are meant to apply the FTOIL page more directly to the Clerith date?


The page is titled, "For The One I Love". The page is not just about romantic moments, it's also about showing examples of heroes with the women they love. SE shows Cloud pictured with Aerith, a woman he loves. Seems pretty cut-and-dry to me.


Aerith speaks of the date in past tense:
“Oh, Cloud…I enjoyed our date at the Gold Saucer. The view from the gondola that night was really beautiful. I’ll never forget it. I’ll never forget you, Cloud…” ~Aerith, Final Fantasy VII Dismantled, Square Enix

This quote talks about a promised date taking place. There is only one promised date in the game -- Cloud and Aerith's:
“#111: The Planet’s largest amusement park is run by Dio. Cloud and company visit this place many times in their battle. They meet Cait Sith here. A **promised date** that ends in a magical night. In the city of desire that floats above the sands, the light memory of the two people is asleep even now…Aerith: “I think I must have seen him again, in you… But you’re different. Things are different… No, Cloud… I’m searching for you…” ~Final Fantasy Art Collection

SE says that the Clerith date is the normal outcome:
“In Aerith’s case, if you play the game normally,the partner that generally comes will be Aerith.” ~Final Fantasy VII Dismantled


Why is it irrelevant on the FTOIL page? SE is saying Cloud's date is worthy to be included on the FTOIL Page, and they have said that the Clerith date is canon, in addition to picturing it on the FTOIL page. Therefore, the Clerith date is an example of Cloud loving Aerith.

Again -- the page is titled "For the One I Love". For the *ONE* I love. Cloud loves two women, which is why he is pictured with both of them on this page.

Every single word of this? Its been dealt with, right here in this very thread. Dismantled? We've discussed it. Some of us have laughed about it. And yet here you are, dragging it out to "prove" that Aerith is canonically the one who dragged Cloud out for a date that night. The date itself, its been explained to you how it doesn't matter if she did or not, as no confession of feelings takes place from either side and Cloud officially (and that's for real, spelled out officially rather than "I inferred this from the tense in a Dismantled quote) remains oblivious to her feelings afterward. We've been over the fact that none of that is even referenced on the page, and that you're reading far too much into a fucking picture. We've gone over the "only the HA Highwind blah blah" crap more times than I'd bother to count even if I cared more, and explained on multiple levels how WRONG that position is.

Now, being a little more fair to you, not all of that was with you personally BB. A lot of it was discussed with folks like Anastar. But at least some of this has come up with you directly, and even if it hasn't (recently or otherwise) some of us here are sick to death of repeating ourselves ad infinitum to explain why shit is wrong, only to have it said again and again after. So yeah, I for one will own up to flat out ignoring some of your posts, and failing to reply even when I pay attention to them. Say something new, however (say, attempting to convince yourself us that Cloud went in at Corneo's to protect Aerith rather than the actual stated goal of rescuing Tifa) and as you might have noticed, you'll get more attention for it

Though, sorry to say, some of that attention will be accusations of trolling, since some of us are becoming increasingly certain that you are doing just that. And when we see logical fallacies, intellectual dishonesty, and outright lies, we WILL call you out for it. So if that offends you, I once more urge you to stop doing that.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Well, it is. It's like Mei's father was reprimanding Tres for hitting on his daughter when she was still a toddler... or was it toddler Mei hitting on Tres? Anyway, romantic pedophilic love. Better than necrophilia.

"Having your legs broken. Better than being set on fire."
True, but without meaning.

And you guys are not following your own advice. You're all hopeless.

Hey, I'm in here to blow off steam and have a good time. I know full and damn well I'm dealing with a troll. In many ways, I am counting on it. Trolls are fun chewtoys.

Shame BB's not taking the bait. I guess he's too busy pretending to think we all follow Glenn's word as law to pay any attention to me, even when he tries to use me as an example of something because he thinks I think differently from everyone else and he wants to use me as an example of how everyone thinks.

Wait a second...

 

[Strangelove]

So when discussing the LTD, I think it is *VERY* relevant to compare how Cloud may show favor for one girl over the other to help determine who he likes more.

nailed it

the question 'who does he love more'

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Why would it lead to a back-and-forth? Because I don't agree with her post.

I have to confess that I literally laughed out loud when I read this.

So what she said is not even feasible, huh? The *only* thing that would make sense in that scenario is that Cloud can't stop thinking about sticking his dick in Aerith? It *has to be* that he just likes this chick he's known for a few hours better than his childhood friend -- the only person in the world he currently considers a friend?

What I'm saying is that you suggested I at the very least give Sprites a courtesy response, even though you haven't suggested that to anyone who has ignored my posts. It's a double standard.

Honestly, dude, I haven't noticed any of your posts get ignored. If anything, each one gets too many responses leading to your issue of having a back-and-forth with too many people at once.

Hell, I couldn't even post fast enough to prevent GLD from responding to your attempt at rehashing the "For the One I Love" page. How in hell are you feeling ignored in this thread?

*YOU* view it as insightful, which is why *YOU* think it should take priority.

It was a new observation and the post received a lot of thanks, so clearly everyone you were discussing the topic with thought it was worth your attention.

Cloud doesn't continue protesting Aerith's involvement in dangerous affairs after this. Does this mean he has stopped caring about her afterward? Or does it mean he now cares about she and Tifa equally at this point?

Because he's there to protect her and look after her. Which, he obviously fails at. But then, that's why he has so much guilt.

You didn't answer either question. Let's do this again:

----
Cloud doesn't continue protesting Aerith's involvement in dangerous affairs after this. Does this mean he has stopped caring about her afterward? Or does it mean he now cares about she and Tifa equally at this point?
----

Why does she get a bigger affection rating boost than anyone else if Cloud takes her into the dangerous situation of confronting Dyne, a known mass murderer? Is taking her into danger now an expression of love? Is she grateful that he now recognizes her competence and ability to look out for herself?

If it's the latter, why is this an expression of love when he does it for Aerith and an expression of favoritism toward Aerith when he does it with Tifa? Hell, choosing options that favor Aerith's safety over Tifa's increase Tifa's own affection rating while focusing on Tifa's safety decreases it. Looks like no matter who Cloud expresses concern for, it's actually all about Aerith, huh?

There are two examples that show us Cloud put his concern for Aerith above his concern for Tifa. That's why I agree with Nojima when he suggests that things might have worked out better with Cloud and Aerith -- they are more compatible as shown when Cloud had the choice between the two during disc 1.

Again you deliberately avoid answering the question and try to veer things off on a tangent. Do you have any idea how irritating that is?

So, I guess we have to do this again too:

----
Why does she get a bigger affection rating boost than anyone else if Cloud takes her into the dangerous situation of confronting Dyne, a known mass murderer? Is taking her into danger now an expression of love? Is she grateful that he now recognizes her competence and ability to look out for herself?

If it's the latter, why is this an expression of love when he does it for Aerith and an expression of favoritism toward Aerith when he does it with Tifa? Hell, choosing options that favor Aerith's safety over Tifa's increase Tifa's own affection rating while focusing on Tifa's safety decreases it. Looks like no matter who Cloud expresses concern for, it's actually all about Aerith, huh?
----

Oh, and this part?:

There are two examples that show us Cloud put his concern for Aerith above his concern for Tifa.

Do you actually mean "concern" or "care"? Because if you want to go with "concern," I might agree. It makes sense for him to be more concerned about Aerith for the reasons Sprite pointed out. That isn't the same as caring about her more or favoring her, which is what you keep claiming.

All other things being equal, Cloud's behavior wouldn't indicate more care or favor for Aerith here.

Picture a "Die Hard" scenario with two police officers are sneaking through a building that has been taken over by machine gun-toting bad guys. They're in different parts of the building and they've never met each other before this.

One of them comes across a civilian screaming for help in an office. He dispatches her attackers, and -- being unable to leave her there -- brings her along with him to keep her safe.

Along the way, they run into the other officer. The other officer says that she has a plan to take down the leader of the group. The civilian asks how she can help. The officer who rescued her says that he can't let her get involved.

The civilian responds, "So, it's okay for the other girl to be in danger?"

What just happened here? Does the officer care more about the civilian or is his decision here not based on that at all, but rather on knowing that the other officer has the same training and ability to look out for herself that he does -- while the civilian has no such training and was literally begging for help shortly before this?

Now, if "Clearly he cares more about the civilian" sounds fucking insane, how much more so does it become when the other officer isn't a stranger at all? Instead, the other officer is the dude's one and only friend? A comrade in arms he has faced danger with before? Someone he owes his life to and made a promise long ago to protect?

How fucking batshit does it sound to then say "Clearly he cares more about the civilian"?

Why did Cloud take Aerith into the Temple of the Ancients knowing Sephiroth -- who had already taken his mother from him and nearly Tifa as well -- would be inside? Was he not wavering in her direction that day?

Because he thought he could protect her.

Cloud didn't think he would be able to protect Aerith if she went in Don's mansion alone, nor did he think he would be able to protect her if she joined in with Tifa's plan to trick Don.

LOL

Let me make sure I follow you. During Cloud's story at Kalm, he said the following about Sephiroth: "In terms of skill, I couldn't have killed him."

So, he's more confident that he can protect Aerith from someone whom he doesn't think he could have beaten years earlier -- *after* that someone has gotten a power upgrade to boot -- than he is that he could protect her from a few non-enhanced dudes that he expressed no concern for himself about when he spoke of breaking into their place?

And once again you didn't respond to what I asked you:

----
Why did Cloud take Aerith into the Temple of the Ancients knowing Sephiroth -- who had already taken his mother from him and nearly Tifa as well -- would be inside? Was he not wavering in her direction that day?

If he took her in because it involved her, was important to her and he knew she could fight at this point, why is Cloud focusing on the civilian's safety back at the Don's a slighting of Tifa when that situation involved her, was important to her and he knew she could fight before that point?
----

I've already stated multiple times that Cloud did show care and concern for Tifa.

Any time that you've said Cloud did care about Tifa, you immediately turned around and said that he would have shrugged his shoulders and left her to face potential rape (at best) had Aerith not been around. So, you're not being consistent about that.

So when discussing the LTD, I think it is *VERY* relevant to compare how Cloud may show favor for one girl over the other to help determine who he likes more.

Or do you mean who you like more?

I thought you said the LTD was about the question "Who does Cloud love?" If the answer to that question is "Both Aerith and Tifa" -- which, again, you say it is -- why do you keep coming back to bullshit like this Wall Market situation and trying to determine "who he likes more"?

Do you really wonder why people keep saying what you claim is inconsistent with what you do or are you just jerking us around?

Unlike when Cloud decided to infiltrate the Shinra headquarters, his trip to Don's mansion was unexpected. Cloud simply followed the cart Tifa was on, and eventually discovered she was in Don's mansion. It wasn't as though it was Cloud's intent, from the beginning, to rescue Tifa. Cloud's intent was to simply go back to the Seventh Heaven bar.

His intent, from the moment he found out where she was going, was to make sure she was okay. He even says "First... we need to find out if Tifa's alright..." after your magical "Oh, man......" that you claim meant he was ready to leave her behind. He speaks of saving her when he gets those bikini briefs, which -- optional event or not -- tells us of his intent and where his mind is at the time.

The way you summarized things, you made it sound like he saw Tifa go by, thought "That's odd," and then followed her right into Corneo's mansion already dressed in drag.

He had plenty of time to think about what he was doing and why.

I'm not convinced that if Cloud had been alone, he would have entered Don's mansion after being told Don wasn't interested in men.

Cloud
Well being a man, that'll be pretty hard. Besides if I bust in there, it'll cause too much commotion.
But, I just can't let you go in alone... Oh, man......
First... we need to find out if Tifa's alright...
What's so funny, Aeris?

Aeris
Cloud, why don't you dress up like a girl? It's the only way.
----

Now isn't that a peculiar series of lines? He says, "Oh, man......" but then says "First... we need to find out if Tifa's alright..." -- and what do you know? It's before Aerith presents an alternative to letting her go in alone or busting down the door!

The way the line about making sure Tifa is alright appears between those things ... it's ... it's trying to tell me something. It feels like a woodpecker on my skull. It's so close.

Why, it's almost as though Cloud never abandoned the goal of checking on Tifa! Goodness gracious, could that be it?! Could it possibly be that he never intended to ditch the only person in the fucking world he called friend to be raped?!

Nah, that's silly. It's gotta be something else.

As for the Forgotten Capital bit, I'll have to take a look at the script again.

How convenient you can't look at the same script you keep getting lines from the Wall Market scenario from. Or at one of the posts where that portion was quoted.

----
Cloud
......City of the Ancients. Aeris is headed there.

Barret
By herself!? Why did she go by herself!?
Hey, we're goin' too.

Cloud
Only the Ancients, only Aeris can save us from Meteor...
Tifa

Then we must go. What'll we do if something happens to Aeris? If Sephiroth finds her, she's in trouble.

Cloud
Sephiroth... already knows.

Barret
Hey! Why are you still sittin' around?

Tifa
Let's go, Cloud.

Cloud
No.
I might lose it again.
If Sephiroth comes near me I might......

Barret
Yeah, godammit! It's 'cuz of you that Sephiroth got the Black Materia in the first place. It's your damn fault!

Cloud
My fault?

Barret
I know you got problems... hell, we all do. But you don't even understand yourself.
But you gotta understand that there ain't no gettin' offa this train we're on, till we get to the end of the line.

Tifa
Cloud, we came this far... Aren't you going to settle up with Sephiroth?

Cloud
No...
I'm afraid.
If this keeps up, I may go crazy!
I'm afraid...

Barret
Just a damn jackass, that's what you are...
Yo, jes' think about it... How many people in this world do ya think really understand themselves?
People get depressed in life because they don't know what's up.
But, they go on living. They don't run away... Isn't that how it is?

Tifa
Cloud... you'll come with us, right? I believe in you.

Cloud
What... am I supposed to do?
Pull out of here?
Pull out? ...To where?

Tifa
Cloud...

Barret
Wait a minute, Tifa. Give him a little time.
He has to decide this on his own.
You believe in Cloud... right?

Cloud
......I'm afraid to find out the truth...? But...... why?

Tifa
Cloud...

Barret
Hey, how are you?
I just wanna know, which is it gonna be?
You wanna find out about yourself? Or are you afraid to find out?
Either way, you stay around here and about all you can do is worry about it.
Even if you do go nuts again when you see Sephiroth... If it happens, it happens.
I'll go upside your spikey white head and bring you back to normal!

Tifa
Cloud, it'll be all right. We're all with you.

Cloud
But...

Barret
If it happens, it happens. Don't worry 'bout it.

Cloud
...You're... right. ......He's right, isn't he?

Tifa
Come on, let's go and find Aeris...?
----

If Cloud had to be convinced to rescue Tifa based on only "The Don's not into men," "But, I just can't let you go in alone..." and "Oh, man......" -- then what the hell is this where we have a drawn out scene where Tifa and Barret have to convince Cloud to go after Aerith? He really would have left her had those two not convinced him to go.

Does this mean he didn't care for her? No. He was concerned about hurting her or someone else if he did go.

But, again, if that short little exchange with Aerith had to convince him to help Tifa (it didn't) when he was actually so concerned about her that he didn't even want to kick the door in because it could lead to a commotion that may get her hurt, then what would that make of this ordeal in getting Cloud to go help Aerith?

Oh, and would you look at that? The characters who couldn't think for themselves earlier and only helped rescue Aerith because Cloud wanted to are now the driving force in rescuing her this time. WEIRD.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Wait, Glenn, are you proposing that... OTHER CHARACTERS care about Aerith?

Man, I don't know what to think now. Out live triangle just exploded into a polyhedral of Takahashian proportions with the revelation that other people care about Aerith and must therefore, by BB's insane troll logic, be wildly in love with her!

 

[Aerobalance]

Barret and Cloud DID have their own moments.

Barret even saw Cloud starting to warm up to people and caring about the safety of others. he was glad he saw him as a sweet guy who cares about people for once, instead of some "Ex-SOLDIER asshole" that the game showed at the very beginning.

Barret did have some arguments with Cloud, but Barret just didn't know how to act around him. Plus there were options to pick for Cloud arguing or not, and staying strong!!!

During the stairs moment in the ShinRa building; Nanaki, Tifa, and even Cloud laughed. It won't tell you, but Barret was happy to have experienced his laughter along with the others.

There's even the date with them!! Can't Cloud just have a lover that died and later find love from a person who understands him? You people make are sick!



Disc 1; Official Final Fantasy VII 1997 Script:

After a long week of nothing but battle and chasing after Sephiroth; Cloud and the gang had to settle down and rest for a while to take some time off and enjoy themselves. They had went in the cable car and stopped at the Gold Saucer for the second time.

Disc 1; Final fantasy VII 1997 100% Guidebook:

(During the second time at the Gold Saucer, depending on your choices and the overall points you have with Aeris, Tifa, the optional character Yuffie, or even Barret if you're into the muscly type; we won't judge.)

(On your first Playthrough, if you're incredibly mean to Aeris, and Tifa; it'll be unlikely for one of them, or neither of them to take you and you will have to settle for someone else depending on your points.)

(Yuffie is also avoidable if you avoid getting meeting her and making her a party member altogether, or getting her to like you enough to have a lucky night with you.)

(Fun fact for players; at the end of the ride of the last event you go to for your date, Yuffie is the only one who shows her feelings to Cloud physically. But who the fuck actually cares about dating the girls in This game anyways? Cloud? No.)

Now here's where things get a little.. "sticky"..

V
V
V

Disc 1; Official Final Fantasy VII 1997 Script:

Cloud was mustering up thoughts in his Hotel room late at night taking a long, hot shower thinking about his dead lover Zack. He had just finished blow-drying his hair, he smelled like...flowers. He was reminded of the short flashback of when he first met Aeris, buying a flower from her, and later meeting again in her Church and being her bodyguard.

Barret has been in front of Cloud's door shortly after he had finished blow-drying. He was scared of rejection from him-- yet, he couldn't think of any options of what to say to him. Barret, quietly swearing words to himself, he started to get even more nervous than before. He then took a deep breath and opens Cloud's door forcibly.

Barret: Yo, &@#%$@!!

Cloud begins to grab his Buster Sword and turns to the door quickly

Cloud: ..................................

Cloud: (Oh, man... what does he want?!)

Barret: Ain't no time 'fo foolin' around!

Barret says in a soft voice

Barret: ....L-Let's go Cloud..

Barret runs behind Cloud and forcefully pushes him out of the room.

Cloud: !?
Cloud: Hey....?!

After many attempts from Barret to keep Cloud From going back to his room, Cloud finally accepts.

Barret: Le's go to the play &@#%!!!

Cloud shrugs

Cloud: ....................................ok.

An excited Barret grabs Cloud's hand and they both go to the play. Barret smiles shyly for a moment. They approach the inside of the theater.

???: Congrats! You both are the 100th coupl--

???-hater sees that they are both men.

Asshole: ...oh. Never mind.

Same retard from above ^: You're not couples, sorry for the mistake.

Barret looks down and has a depressing look on his face. Hearing that made his heart break a bit. He kept thinking of the woman's word, "mistake". He tries to brush it off, turns around to face Cloud, and pushes Cloud out of the theater.

Barret and Cloud approach the Ticket Booth for the ride..

Barret: Two of 'em &@#$ tickets please?

Person at the Ticket Booth looks intimidated, yet interested in why a white stickman with Popeye arms and an intimidating Mr.T with one arm wanted to ride together. After being in thought, the person just knew not to judge their manly aroma of affection and realized that she's been keeping them waiting.

Barret: Hurry the &@%# up!!

Person: !!
Person: S-sorry! Here, your tickets.

seconds later and they are shown in the ride.

Barret tapping his foot with arms crossed

Cloud is doing the same

Cloud: ...

Barret: ......

Cloud: ...

Barret: .....

Cloud: ........

Disc 2: Official Final Fantasy VII 1997 Script:

Cloud and Tifa fucks under the highwind and Barret watches the whole thing quietly while beating the windows of the Highwind with tears and snot on his face.

^ Not fanfiction, the REAL thing for my ship.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Wait, Glenn, are you proposing that... OTHER CHARACTERS care about Aerith?

I know, I know. Me and my crack fan theories.

 

[Dashell]

Cloud: ...

Barret: ......

Cloud: ...

Barret: .....

Cloud: ........

So.. they just kept rejecting each other back and forth?

 

[BlankBeat]

How convenient you can't look at the same script you keep getting lines from the Wall Market scenario from. Or at one of the posts where that portion was quoted.

----
Cloud
......City of the Ancients. Aeris is headed there.

Barret
By herself!? Why did she go by herself!?
Hey, we're goin' too.

Cloud
Only the Ancients, only Aeris can save us from Meteor...
Tifa

Then we must go. What'll we do if something happens to Aeris? If Sephiroth finds her, she's in trouble.

Cloud
Sephiroth... already knows.

Barret
Hey! Why are you still sittin' around?

Tifa
Let's go, Cloud.

Cloud
No.
I might lose it again.
If Sephiroth comes near me I might......

Barret
Yeah, godammit! It's 'cuz of you that Sephiroth got the Black Materia in the first place. It's your damn fault!

Cloud
My fault?

Barret
I know you got problems... hell, we all do. But you don't even understand yourself.
But you gotta understand that there ain't no gettin' offa this train we're on, till we get to the end of the line.

Tifa
Cloud, we came this far... Aren't you going to settle up with Sephiroth?

Cloud
No...
I'm afraid.
If this keeps up, I may go crazy!
I'm afraid...

Barret
Just a damn jackass, that's what you are...
Yo, jes' think about it... How many people in this world do ya think really understand themselves?
People get depressed in life because they don't know what's up.
But, they go on living. They don't run away... Isn't that how it is?

Tifa
Cloud... you'll come with us, right? I believe in you.

Cloud
What... am I supposed to do?
Pull out of here?
Pull out? ...To where?

Tifa
Cloud...

Barret
Wait a minute, Tifa. Give him a little time.
He has to decide this on his own.
You believe in Cloud... right?

Cloud
......I'm afraid to find out the truth...? But...... why?

Tifa
Cloud...

Barret
Hey, how are you?
I just wanna know, which is it gonna be?
You wanna find out about yourself? Or are you afraid to find out?
Either way, you stay around here and about all you can do is worry about it.
Even if you do go nuts again when you see Sephiroth... If it happens, it happens.
I'll go upside your spikey white head and bring you back to normal!

Tifa
Cloud, it'll be all right. We're all with you.

Cloud
But...

Barret
If it happens, it happens. Don't worry 'bout it.

Cloud
...You're... right. ......He's right, isn't he?

Tifa
Come on, let's go and find Aeris...?
----

If Cloud had to be convinced to rescue Tifa based on only "The Don's not into men," "But, I just can't let you go in alone..." and "Oh, man......" -- then what the hell is this where we have a drawn out scene where Tifa and Barret have to convince Cloud to go after Aerith? He really would have left her had those two not convinced him to go.

Does this mean he didn't care for her? No. He was concerned about hurting her or someone else if he did go.

But, again, if that short little exchange with Aerith had to convince him to help Tifa (it didn't) when he was actually so concerned about her that he didn't even want to kick the door in because it could lead to a commotion that may get her hurt, then what would that make of this ordeal in getting Cloud to go help Aerith?

Oh, and would you look at that? The characters who couldn't think for themselves earlier and only helped rescue Aerith because Cloud wanted to are now the driving force in rescuing her this time. WEIRD.

Cloud says: "No. I might lose it again. If Sephiroth comes near me I might……"

The reason Cloud did not want to go to the City of the Ancients is because he had just been possessed by Sephiroth and given him the black materia. Cloud thought he could potentially hurt Aerith while Sephiroth was in his presence.

And guess what? CLOUD'S FEAR CAME TRUE. Sephiroth possessed Cloud again and he almost killed Aerith.

If anything, Cloud knew what everyone else didn't -- his presence put Aerith's safety at greater risk. This entire conversation actually shows Cloud predicted the future correctly and was right to worry that his presence might put Aerith in more danger. Just think if Cloud *HAD* killed Aerith. He'd probably be pretty pissed at Tifa for convincing him to go when he expressed reservations that turned out to be true.

But thanks for giving me yet another example of Cloud worrying about Aerith's safety

You didn't answer either question. Let's do this again:

----
Cloud doesn't continue protesting Aerith's involvement in dangerous affairs after this. Does this mean he has stopped caring about her afterward? Or does it mean he now cares about she and Tifa equally at this point?
----



Again you deliberately avoid answering the question and try to veer things off on a tangent. Do you have any idea how irritating that is?

I already answered your question: Cloud doesn't continue to worry about Aerith's involvement in dangerous situations because he's there to protect her. When Aerith is without Cloud, like she would have been in Don's mansion, that's when Cloud becomes uncomfortable with the idea of her being in a dangerous situation.

In fact, Cloud says "But, I can't just let you go alone..." -- this tells us Cloud is OK with Aerith being in dangerous situations so long as he is there to protect her.

So, I guess we have to do this again too:

----
Why does she get a bigger affection rating boost than anyone else if Cloud takes her into the dangerous situation of confronting Dyne, a known mass murderer? Is taking her into danger now an expression of love? Is she grateful that he now recognizes her competence and ability to look out for herself?

Right. Cloud's taking Aerith *WITH* him to confront Dyne. Cloud's not sending Aerith alone, like what would have happened if he had let her go in Don's mansion alone.

Again --

--
Cloud doesn't continue to worry about Aerith's involvement in dangerous situations because he's there to protect her. When Aerith is without Cloud, like she would have been in Don's mansion, that's when Cloud becomes uncomfortable with the idea of her being in a dangerous situation.

In fact, Cloud says "But I can't just let you go alone..." -- this tells us Cloud is OK with Aerith being in dangerous situations so long as he is there to protect her.
--

Do you actually mean "concern" or "care"? Because if you want to go with "concern," I might agree. It makes sense for him to be more concerned about Aerith for the reasons Sprite pointed out. That isn't the same as caring about her more or favoring her, which is what you keep claiming.

All other things being equal, Cloud's behavior wouldn't indicate more care or favor for Aerith here.

Picture a "Die Hard" scenario with two police officers are sneaking through a building that has been taken over by machine gun-toting bad guys. They're in different parts of the building and they've never met each other before this.

One of them comes across a civilian screaming for help in an office. He dispatches her attackers, and -- being unable to leave her there -- brings her along with him to keep her safe.

Along the way, they run into the other officer. The other officer says that she has a plan to take down the leader of the group. The civilian asks how she can help. The officer who rescued her says that he can't let her get involved.

The civilian responds, "So, it's okay for the other girl to be in danger?"

What just happened here? Does the officer care more about the civilian or is his decision here not based on that at all, but rather on knowing that the other officer has the same training and ability to look out for herself that he does -- while the civilian has no such training and was literally begging for help shortly before this?

Now, if "Clearly he cares more about the civilian" sounds fucking insane, how much more so does it become when the other officer isn't a stranger at all? Instead, the other officer is the dude's one and only friend? A comrade in arms he has faced danger with before? Someone he owes his life to and made a promise long ago to protect?

How fucking batshit does it sound to then say "Clearly he cares more about the civilian"?

But…why would the civilian ask if it's OK for the other girl to be in danger, knowing that the other girl was an officer? No civilian I know would ask that.

Anyway --

Having both Aerith and Coud rescue Tifa was an obvious way to set the stage for the love triangle. In fact, Aerith and Tifa's conversation when they first meet tells us this was SE's way to set up the love triangle (something your scenario obviously lacks). And in the process of doing this, they showed us that Aerith's safety was more of a concern for Cloud. Aerith having to point it out should be evidence enough of SE's intent.

Also -- if people think Cloud believes Tifa could take care of herself, why would it be unreasonable to think Cloud may have decided it wasn't worth it to break into Don's mansion after they turned him away for being a guy?

The fact is, Cloud's intent from the beginning was never to rescue Tifa. It was simply to find Seventh Heaven, and then it progressed to find out why Tifa was in a cart. There is no evidence Cloud was out to rescue Tifa. And the script tells us it was Cloud's concern for Aerith's safety that initially led him to sneaking into Don's mansion.

Part of the reason SE had Barret make his observation is because of intent -- Cloud didn't set out to rescue Tifa, it just kind of happened, and it happened partly because of Aerith. But Cloud intentionally set out to save Aerith from the Shinra headquarters. That's a huge difference.

LOL

Let me make sure I follow you. During Cloud's story at Kalm, he said the following about Sephiroth: "In terms of skill, I couldn't have killed him."

So, he's more confident that he can protect Aerith from someone whom he doesn't think he could have beaten years earlier -- *after* that someone has gotten a power upgrade to boot -- than he is that he could protect her from a few non-enhanced dudes that he expressed no concern for himself about when he spoke of breaking into their place?

Cloud knew he had no shot in hell at convincing Aerith to change her mind. Elmyra says that once Aerith makes up her mind, there's no point in convincing her otherwise.

So although I'm sure Cloud didn't want Aerith to be in these positions, knowing that she wouldn't change her mind, the best he could do was to make sure he was always there to protect her. Until, of course, he realizes Sephiroth can posses him.

----
Why did Cloud take Aerith into the Temple of the Ancients knowing Sephiroth -- who had already taken his mother from him and nearly Tifa as well -- would be inside? Was he not wavering in her direction that day?

If he took her in because it involved her, was important to her and he knew she could fight at this point, why is Cloud focusing on the civilian's safety back at the Don's a slighting of Tifa when that situation involved her, was important to her and he knew she could fight before that point?

Aerith wanted to go to the Temple of the Ancients. Cloud knew there was no point in trying to convince her not to go. So, the best he could do was make sure he was there to protect her the best he could. But once he realized Sephiroth could control him, he decided it might be best for Aerith's safety if he removed himself from the situation.

On the contrary, in the situations regarding Don's mansion, both before they entered and once they entered, he didn't want Aerith in any dangerous situations where he wouldn't be there to protect her.

-I thought you said the LTD was about the question "Who does Cloud love?" If the answer to that question is "Both Aerith and Tifa" -- which, again, you say it is -- why do you keep coming back to bullshit like this Wall Market situation and trying to determine "who he likes more"?

Because I think it's an interesting question. Obviously Cloud could like Aerith and Tifa equally, or for different reasons. But I think it's human nature to have a preference.

Even Nojima wonders if things might have worked out better with Aerith. If Nojima's allowed to wonder about this, I'm allowed to wonder about it, too. And the way to determine if things would have worked out better with Aerith is to look at disc 1 and compare the way Cloud treated Tifa vs. the way Cloud treated Aerith. It's not that Cloud didn't show concern for Tifa, it's just that he obviously showed far more care and concern for Aerith.

His intent, from the moment he found out where she was going, was to make sure she was okay. He even says "First... we need to find out if Tifa's alright..." after your magical "Oh, man......" that you claim meant he was ready to leave her behind. He speaks of saving her when he gets those bikini briefs, which -- optional event or not -- tells us of his intent and where his mind is at the time.

Cloud's intent to save Tifa was only after he didn't want Aerith to go alone. His intent before that was to find Seventh Heaven.

Cloud
Well being a man, that'll be pretty hard. Besides if I bust in there, it'll cause too much commotion.
But, I just can't let you go in alone... Oh, man......
First... we need to find out if Tifa's alright...
What's so funny, Aeris?

Aeris
Cloud, why don't you dress up like a girl? It's the only way.
----

Now isn't that a peculiar series of lines? He says, "Oh, man......" but then says "First... we need to find out if Tifa's alright..." -- and what do you know? It's before Aerith presents an alternative to letting her go in alone or busting down the door!

If Cloud was always planning on going in regardless of being turned away, why does he have to convince himself that he can't let Aerith go in alone? The phrasing of Cloud's line just doesn't make sense if he was always going to go in.

Why, it's almost as though Cloud never abandoned the goal of checking on Tifa! Goodness gracious, could that be it?! Could it possibly be that he never intended to ditch the only person in the fucking world he called friend to be raped?!

But once Cloud got inside, he didn't express worry for Tifa until after Aerith pointed out his double standard. This suggests Cloud wasn't worried about Tifa being in there to begin with.

Plus, according to you guys, Cloud thinks Tifa can take care of herself, but he doesn't think Aerith can do the same.

So if Cloud thinks Tifa can take care of herself, but he doesn't think Aerith can do the same, if Cloud had been without Aerith, he may very well have turned around when they said Don isn't interested in men. But since he was with Aerith (a girl he didn't think could fight very well) he decided to go in.

As for the topic of Sprites:

I have to confess that I literally laughed out loud when I read this.

So what she said is not even feasible, huh? The *only* thing that would make sense in that scenario is that Cloud can't stop thinking about sticking his dick in Aerith? It *has to be* that he just likes this chick he's known for a few hours better than his childhood friend -- the only person in the world he currently considers a friend?

I said that the reason I didn't want to respond to her post was because it would have led to an exchange between us, and I was already bogged down with debating numerous people. You said that didn't make sense because it wouldn't have necessarily led to an exchange between us. Then I told you it would have led to an exchange between us because I don't agree with everything she said.

So...I'm not really sure what you're arguing about?

IHonestly, dude, I haven't noticed any of your posts get ignored. If anything, each one gets too many responses leading to your issue of having a back-and-forth with too many people at once.

Hell, I couldn't even post fast enough to prevent GLD from responding to your attempt at rehashing the "For the One I Love" page. How in hell are you feeling ignored in this thread?

I'm not feeling ignored. I'm saying some of my posts have been ignored, yet you think I should have given Sprites a "courtesy response". That's a double standard. And what the hell is a "courtesy response"? I've never heard of that before, nor have I ever received one when my posts have been ignored. But thanks for the étiquette lesson.

It was a new observation and the post received a lot of thanks, so clearly everyone you were discussing the topic with thought it was worth your attention.

You guys thank each others posts all the time. At this point, I don't even look at the amount of "thanks" a post gets because of how overused it is on this site.

--------------------

Every single word of this? Its been dealt with, right here in this very thread.

Then we have a difference of opinion.

You believe that because the caption under Cloud and Aerith’s date doesn’t directly mention Aerith by name, it somehow invalidates Cloud and Aerith’s presence on the FTOIL page. However, the Cloud x Aerith date *IS* canon. Therefore, the caption is irrelevant. The caption under Cloud and Aerith’s was there to represent *ALL* the dates on the FTOIL page because *ALL* the dates are romantic (ie: because they are *DATES*). However, SE pictured Cloud and Aerith’s date because it is the *canon* date, and because we are meant to apply the FTOIL page directly to their canon date.

The reason we only see the HA Highwind scene on the FTOIL page is because it would have been inappropriate to discuss or include the LA Highwind scene on a page titled “For The One I Love”. But if you could get different characters for the HA Highwind scene like you can for the date, that would have also been included on the FTOIL page. SE lists a reference page above Cloud and Tifa’s image on the FTOIL page so readers can find out that the HA version is not the *only* version, the HA version is simply the only appropriate version of the Highwind scene to include on the FTOIL page.

Since Cloud is pictured with both of his love interests in two canon scenes of romance on a page titled, “For The One I Love,” Cloud can love either Aerith or Tifa. In other words, all the other love triangles have been solved *EXCEPT* for Final Fantasy VII because Cloud Strife is the only hero involved in a love triangle pictured with *BOTH* of his romantic love interests.

According to SE:
1. Cloud's date is worthy of being included on the FTOIL page
2. SE has said the Clerith date is canon
3. SE gave the Clerith date preferential treatment on the FTOIL page

Therefore, the Clerith date is an example of Cloud loving Aerith according to the FTOIL page.

Dismantled? We've discussed it. Some of us have laughed about it. And yet here you are, dragging it out to "prove" that Aerith is canonically the one who dragged Cloud out for a date that night.

Dismantled wasn't the only piece of evidence I used. Dismantled simply reinforces the other evidence I provided.

I used the Final Fantasy art collection that mentions a PROMISED DATE taking place. There is only *ONE* promised date.

I also used the quote where SE says Aerith's date is the normal outcome.

In addition, doesn't the Clerith date make the most sense narratively?

Why would SE picture the Clerith date if it wasn't the canon outcome? Seems obvious that SE would picture the *canon* date (ie: the date we are meant to apply the FTOIL page to).

 

[BlankBeat]

This is pretty inconsistent logic from a lot of you guys:

People keep saying the reason Cloud initially expressed more concern for Aerith's involvement in the plan to fool Don Cornero was because Cloud viewed Aerith as a weaker fighter than Tifa. So the natural conclusion is that Cloud is going to show more concern over Aerith's involvement than Tifa's.

But if this logic can be applied once Cloud and Aerith are inside, can't this logic be applied to when Cloud and Aerith are outside, too?

Why is it so hard to believe that if Cloud had been alone, he would have walked away when they told him Don wasn't interested in men? After-all, Cloud thinks Tifa can take care of herself. She's apart of AVALANCHE and Cloud has bombed reactors with her. So doesn't it make sense that Cloud went in initially because he didn't want Aerith, a weak fighter, to go alone?

EDIT #1:
Part of the reason SE had Barret make his observation despite Cloud rescuing Tifa is because of intent.

Cloud didn't set out to rescue Tifa, it just kind of happened, and it happened partly because of Aerith. Cloud initially wanted to find Seventh Heaven, and then he wanted to find out where Tifa was going in the cart. To act as though Cloud's intention from the beginning was to rescue Tifa is disingenuous. However, Cloud intentionally set out to save Aerith from the Shinra headquarters.

That's a significant difference.

EDIT #2:
Just in-case you don't want to read my long post to Hawk, here is why Tifa convincing Cloud to go to the City of the Ancients doesn't disprove, but actually further proves, what I'm saying:

Cloud says: "No. I might lose it again. If Sephiroth comes near me I might……"

The reason Cloud did not want to go to the City of the Ancients is because he had just been possessed by Sephiroth and given him the black materia. Cloud thought he could potentially hurt Aerith while Sephiroth was in his presence.

And guess what? CLOUD'S FEAR CAME TRUE. Sephiroth possessed Cloud again and he almost killed Aerith.

If anything, Cloud knew what everyone else didn't -- his presence put Aerith's safety at greater risk. This entire conversation actually shows Cloud predicted the future correctly and was right to worry that his presence might put Aerith in more danger.

Just think if Cloud *HAD* killed Aerith. He'd probably be pretty pissed at Tifa for convincing him to go when he expressed reservations that turned out to be true.

But thanks, Quex and Hawk, for giving me yet another example of Cloud worrying about Aerith's safety

 

[Dashell]

Frankly at this point I don't understand why we can't just say, "Cloud cared and worried about both of them."

 

[Akai Hana]

Sorry I just can't resist to post this..

BB, Cloud is not a guy who is idiot enough to walk away when he knows someone is in danger.. Do you ever noted how stupid it sounds? Beside as I was saying before, Cloud is the one who always keep his promise..

And I guess you're forgetting something,

Tifa: "So! You're really leaving!? You're just going to walk right out ignoring your childhood friend!?"
Cloud: -optional dialogue- "How can you say that!"/ "...Sorry"
Tifa: "You forgot the promise, too."
Cloud: "Promise?"
(Tifa looks down.)
Tifa: "So you DID forget. Remember.... Cloud. It was seven years ago..."
(Cloud looks up. The scene fades to black. It fades in again; Cloud and Tifa are standing by a well. The sky is full of stars.)
Tifa: "Look, the well. Do you remember?"
(Cloud nods.)
Cloud: "Yeah.... back then."
Cloud: "I thought you would never come, and I was getting a little cold."

When Cloud left the village dreaming of being a SOLDIER, he swore to Tifa that he would come running to her rescue if she was in trouble. While it was Tifa who strong-armed him into making the promise, it seems that the idea that he must keep this vow was forever in Cloud’s mind. In BC he is obsessive about protecting people, and if he runs out of strength part way though he will mention the “promise. ~Cloud Strife Profile, FFVII 10th Anniversary Ultimania

 

[BlankBeat]

Frankly at this point I don't understand why we can't just say, "Cloud cared and worried about both of them."

This is what you said many pages back:

"Cloud only went to the Forgotten City to protect Tifa. She had to convince Cloud go to. If she hadn't convinced him, he would have let Aerith go by herself. Seems to me he was wavering toward Tifa then."


1. Cloud did not go to the Forgotten City to protect Tifa. He simply agreed to go to the Forgotten City because Tifa convinced him.

2. Cloud had just given Sephiroth the black materia because Sephiroth possessed him. Cloud tells everyone he doesn't want to go to the Forgotten City out of fear of that happening again, "No. I might lose it again. If Sephiroth comes near me I might……"

The reason Cloud didn't want to go to the Forgotten City was because he was afraid his presence would put Aerith at *GREATER* danger -- which is the *OPPOSITE* of what you were suggesting.

3. Cloud's fear comes partially true. Sephiroth possesses Cloud and he almost kills Aerith. Cloud's reservations about going were completely justified.

4. Just think if Cloud *HAD* killed Aerith. He'd probably be pretty pissed at Tifa for convincing him to go when he expressed reservations that turned out to be true.

Anyway. I agree with you. Cloud showed care and concern for both women. But this is what I'm trying to discuss:

I'm trying to see if Nojima's theory is accurate or not. Would things have gone better with Aerith? And the only way to answer this question is to compare how Cloud treated Aerith and Tifa while they were both alive and on equal footing.

During Cloud's childhood, obviously Cloud showed romantic interest in Tifa. And after Aerith died, obviously Cloud showed romantic interest in Tifa. But when Aerith and Tifa are both on equal footing, it is undeniable that Cloud preferred Aerith. One has to look no further than their chemistry, Tifa's jealously, and Cloud's consistent concern for Aerith's safety. The only time Tifa "beats" Aerith is either when Aerith is dead, or during Cloud's childhood, a time Aerith wasn't present for. This suggest to me that if Aerith was present during Cloud's childhood, Cloud would have fancied Aerith instead of Tifa. This also suggests that if Aerith had lived, Cloud would have expressed mutual feelings to Aerith instead of Tifa.

Although it's possible that if Cloud had his memories during disc 1, he might not have preferred Aerith; by the time Cloud regained all of his memories, the deed was done. Cloud had formed a special and genuine bond with Aerith, which is why despite Cloud regaining all of his memories associated with Tifa, his relationship with Tifa was still complicated by the genuine bond he had built with Aerith. And Tifa continues to see and feel the romantic bond Cloud and Aerith developed, even in AC.

 

[Dashell]

This is what you said many pages back:

Like I said it was a troll response, of course I don't believe that
and I hope you know I don't believe that as well

 

[Sprites]

If anything, Cloud knew what everyone else didn't -- his presence put Aerith's safety at greater risk. This entire conversation actually shows Cloud predicted the future correctly and was right to worry that his presence might put Aerith in more danger.

No.

Everyone else is quite clear that Cloud could go mental again for fucks sake the party member who comes to the Temple of the Ancients ends up knocking Cloud out because he beats the crap out of Aerith. I would also say he’s more concerned about HIMSELF and what he might do while under Sephiroth’s control period rather than just what he might do to Aerith .

Cloud
......I'm afraid to find out the truth...? But...... why?

Tifa
Cloud...

Barret
Hey, how are you?
I just wanna know, which is it gonna be?
You wanna find out about yourself? Or are you afraid to find out?
Either way, you stay around here and about all you can do is worry about it.
Even if you do go nuts again when you see Sephiroth... If it happens, it happens.
I'll go upside your spikey white head and bring you back to normal!

Not only is Cloud here saying he’s afraid to find out why this happens to him, but Barret acknowledges it, fuck he even says he’ll bring Cloud out of it again and reassures him they’ll all be there to help him, if he goes nuts again. Also notice Barret in that conversation, he doesn’t say “Ready to go get Aerith?” He asks Cloud does he want to know the truth about himself or not. That conversation is more about Cloud than Aerith.

Also why do you think he hands the Black Materia later to another party member, he knows full well there’s a chance that he could give it to Sephiroth, he’s already done it once and he could do it again but it doesn't mean he knows he's going to do it, he's doing it to be on the safe side.

Also do you really think that even if Cloud had decided not to go along then the others would have stopped looking for Aerith, because they were already out looking for her when Cloud was unconscious, couldn’t have anything to do with the fact she’s their friend too and they’re worried about her because she’s missing full stop, Cloud bringing up Sephiroth’s name just makes them realise they need to move faster because she hasn’t just randomly decided to go missing off somewhere anymore.

Just think if Cloud *HAD* killed Aerith. He'd probably be pretty pissed at Tifa for convincing him to go when he expressed reservations that turned out to be true.

My jaw actually dropped here…

So rather than focusing on the fact that Cloud would be more pissed off at himself for killing her and hate himself, fuck he spends most of his time doing that in AC because he feels guilty for letting her die at the hands of Sephiroth, you turn it into something to be pissed off at TIfa about, it doesn’t matter that Barret helped to convince Cloud to come with the team too or that you can take any two party members to City of Ancients (granted the canon is Barret and Tifa) and they ALL try and stop Cloud when he goes to attack Aerith, you just turned it into a Tifa-Bashing moment…bullshit!

But…why would the civilian ask if it's OK for the other girl to be in danger, knowing that the other girl was an officer? No civilian I know would ask that.

I’m not even going to go there…

Also -- if people think Cloud believes Tifa could take care of herself, why would it be unreasonable to think Cloud may have decided it wasn't worth it to break into Don's mansion after they turned him away for being a guy?

He’s just seen his childhood friend and a member of Avalanche going into a well known pimps house associated with Shinra!! Are you seriously telling me he’d just turn around and leave her there? Are you seriously telling me that if a female friend of yours was seen going into a Pimps house you wouldn’t try and find out what was going on and even if you were turned away at the door would you seriously just walk away? He knows she can take care of herself but he’s not reassured by why Tifa is there until he gets the story straight from her mouth until he knows for sure she has a reason for going in there.

The fact is, Cloud's intent from the beginning was never to rescue Tifa. It was simply to find Seventh Heaven, and then it progressed to find out why Tifa was in a cart

Nooo, you don’t say?? Of course it was never his original intent he didn’t think she needed rescuing until he saw her in the back of a chocobo carriage on the way to Wall market, also notice how his original intention never included Aerith, he never asked her to come with him, she offered and he was planning not to involve her any longer and leave her the night before, partly at her mother’s request, partly for her safety I'll agree on that point and mostly because he knows she’s no business with Avalanche.

Cloud knew he had no shot in hell at convincing Aerith to change her mind. Elmyra says that once Aerith makes up her mind, there's no point in convincing her otherwise.

So although I'm sure Cloud didn't want Aerith to be in these positions, knowing that she wouldn't change her mind, the best he could do was to make sure he was always there to protect her. Until, of course, he realizes Sephiroth can posses him.

You know after Midgar, Cloud doesn’t ask anyone to come along they all sorta just come to help him without stating their reasons, except for two people, Red XIII agrees to go with them as far as his hometown and then that’s it.

Aerith wants to help but her main reason for going is find out about her heritage, she believes at this point too that Sephiroth is connected to the Ancients and going with Cloud gives her an opportunity to find all this out, he’s not going to stop her when she has a perfectly good reason for going with him

Aerith wanted to go to the Temple of the Ancients. Cloud knew there was no point in trying to convince her not to go. So, the best he could do was make sure he was there to protect her the best he could

She was going to go whether Cloud came or not, this was all about finding out about her heritage this isn’t about Cloud needing to protect Aerith, he goes because he wants to find out more too about the Ancients too and he never once says to her when she wants to go there, “it’s dangerous you sure you want to go”. He knows this is important to her to find out who she is. Aerith runs off to the City of Ancients without Cloud, without anyone really, I’m pretty sure she would have done the same going to the Temple of the Ancients without him too if he’d tried to stop her going.

Cloud's intent to save Tifa was only after he didn't want Aerith to go alone. His intent before that was to find Seventh Heaven.

This is what he actually says:

Cloud
"...Is Sector 7 far from here? I want to go to Tifa's bar."

Seventh Heaven is a very well known bar in the slums so why did he mention it as Tifa’s bar, why not Seventh Heaven. Aerith doesn’t have a clue who Tifa is, even asking if she’s a girl. Cloud doesn’t just want to find Seventh Heaven, he wants to find Tifa at any rate, if he just wanted to find Seventh Heaven, he would have said that, notice how he doesn’t say Barrett or his friends, he says TIFA.

You guys thank each others posts all the time. At this point, I don't even look at the amount of "thanks" a post gets because of how overused it is on this site.

Trust you to bring up the thanks system like that, people use it to convey they like a post or agree with something also if you think it’s overused then why use it yourself, I’ve seen you thank posts in here, you can’t have double standards on this.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I'm trying to see if Nojima's theory is accurate or not. Would things have gone better with Aerith? And the only way to answer this question is to compare how Cloud treated Aerith and Tifa while they were both alive and on equal footing.

The only way to answer this would be to have had Cloud actually be himself while around both of them and see what he does then -- and that is not something that can ever happen. This was a deliberate part of the design process. You're overlooking the hypothetical phrasing Nojima spoke in. That's all there can ever be here: hypothetical musings. No clear answers. Not for Cloud. Not for Nojima. Not for you. Not for anybody. That was the point. That's the kind of unanswered questions and eternal mysteries something like the sudden death of a loved one leaves you with.

You're trying to solve a mystery that has no answer.

I'll get to the rest of your replies tomorrow.

 

[BlankBeat]

No.

Yes.

I would also say he’s more concerned about HIMSELF and what he might do while under Sephiroth’s control period rather than just what he might do to Aerith .

Huh?

The plan was to go find Aerith. Cloud's worried about what he would do when they found Aerith.

And guess what? He should have been. Sephiroth tried to have Cloud kill Aerith. His fear came true.

Not only is Cloud here saying he’s afraid to find out why this happens to him, but Barret acknowledges it, fuck he even says he’ll bring Cloud out of it again and reassures him they’ll all be there to help him, if he goes nuts again. Also notice Barret in that conversation, he doesn’t say “Ready to go get Aerith?” He asks Cloud does he want to know the truth about himself or not. That conversation is more about Cloud than Aerith.

But Cloud isn't completely convinced that Barret could snap Cloud out of it.

And of course the entire conversation isn't only about Aerith, but the entire conversation was built around the idea of following Aerith into the Forgotten City.

Also why do you think he hands the Black Materia later to another party member, he knows full well there’s a chance that he could give it to Sephiroth, he’s already done it once and he could do it again but it doesn't mean he knows he's going to do it, he's doing it to be on the safe side.

OK. What's your point?

Also do you really think that even if Cloud had decided not to go along then the others would have stopped looking for Aerith, because they were already out looking for her when Cloud was unconscious, couldn’t have anything to do with the fact she’s their friend too and they’re worried about her because she’s missing full stop, Cloud bringing up Sephiroth’s name just makes them realise they need to move faster because she hasn’t just randomly decided to go missing off somewhere anymore.

Sure, the other members could have decided to go without Cloud. What's your point?

So rather than focusing on the fact that Cloud would be more pissed off at himself for killing her and hate himself, fuck he spends most of his time doing that in AC because he feels guilty for letting her die at the hands of Sephiroth, you turn it into something to be pissed off at TIfa about, it doesn’t matter that Barret helped to convince Cloud to come with the team too or that you can take any two party members to City of Ancients (granted the canon is Barret and Tifa) and they ALL try and stop Cloud when he goes to attack Aerith, you just turned it into a Tifa-Bashing moment…bullshit!

I'm sure he'd be more pissed at himself than Tifa.

But I can't help but think that this would cross Cloud's mind if he had killed Aerith, "I should have listened to myself and not Tifa".

I’m not even going to go there…

K

He’s just seen his childhood friend and a member of Avalanche going into a well known pimps house associated with Shinra!! Are you seriously telling me he’d just turn around and leave her there? Are you seriously telling me that if a female friend of yours was seen going into a Pimps house you wouldn’t try and find out what was going on and even if you were turned away at the door would you seriously just walk away? He knows she can take care of herself but he’s not reassured by why Tifa is there until he gets the story straight from her mouth until he knows for sure she has a reason for going in there.

When he hears of Tifa's plan inside, his first reaction is to worry about Aerith. So...yes, Cloud might have trusted that Tifa knew what she was doing.

Nooo, you don’t say?? Of course it was never his original intent he didn’t think she needed rescuing until he saw her in the back of a chocobo carriage on the way to Wall market,

Actually, we can't say for sure if that's the moment he knew Tifa needed rescuing. Cloud simply expressed a desire to see what she was doing in the cart.

You know after Midgar, Cloud doesn’t ask anyone to come along they all sorta just come to help him, except for two people, Red XIII agrees to go with them as far as his hometown and then that’s it.

Aerith wants to help but her main reason for going is find out about her heritage, she believes at this point too that Sephiroth is connected to the Ancients and going with Cloud gives her an opportunity to find all this out, he’s not going to stop her when she has a perfectly good reason for going with him

OK.

This is what he actually says:

Cloud
"...Is Sector 7 far from here? I want to go to Tifa's bar."

Seventh Heaven is a very well known bar in the slums so why did he mention it as Tifa’s bar, why not Seventh Heaven. Aerith doesn’t have a clue who Tifa is, even asking if she’s a girl. Cloud doesn’t just want to find Seventh Heaven, he wants to find Tifa at any rate, if he just wanted to find Seventh Heaven, he would have said that, notice how he doesn’t say Barrett or his friends, he says TIFA.

OK. Cloud says Tifa's bar, not Seventh Heaven. That still doesn't suggest his original plan was to rescue her.

Trust you to bring up the thanks system, people use it to convey they like a post or agree with something also if you think it’s overused then why use it yourself, I’ve seen you thank posts in here, you can’t have double standards on this.

Yes. I've thanked posts before. But I've never used the amount of thanks a posts get as an argument like Hawk has.

So...what's your point?

 

[BlankBeat]

The only way to answer this would be to have had Cloud actually be himself while around both of them and see what he does then -- and that is not something that can ever happen. This was a deliberate part of the design process. You're overlooking the hypothetical phrasing Nojima spoke in. That's all there can ever be here: hypothetical musings. No clear answers. Not for Cloud. Not for Nojima. Not for you. Not for anybody. That was the point. That's the kind of unanswered questions and eternal mysteries something like the sudden death of a loved one leaves you with.

You're trying to solve a mystery that has no answer.

I'll get to the rest of your replies tomorrow.

Meh. There's always room for hypothesizes.

Fact is, when Aerith and Tifa were on equal footing, Cloud preferred Aerith. 'nuff said.

 

[Farron]

No, when you accuse me of lying that's when I get touchy. As for Dagger, well, her posts have degraded into petty attempts to smear me through character assassination, attempted mockery, and attempted sarcasm.

Okay I have to be honest here and say that I'm trying to have some fun here ? The ltd can get a bit serious and rough so I don't always try and be serious 24/7 though I do apologize if I have hurt your feelings or anything BB

Though I am annoyed with some of your posts because they're so Anti- Tifa and just plain out Tifa Bashing, plus the Copy- Pasta, not listening and bringing up old Clerith evidence that has been proven wrong at least three times already like a broken CD

Not to mention

dissing

my

friend

This is why I don't even bother responding to most of your posts. Maybe I should just lump you in with Dagger?

" Lump " Me with Setzer please. Righht on his Gambling little bed.

Or Edgar

Or Sabin

Or Locke

I love Final Fantasy 6

 

[Strangelove]

I'm going to talk about the Japanese script now for no other reason than I can ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) also it has a slight difference

クラウド
「俺は男だからな。むりやりはいったら 騒ぎになってしまう」
"I'm a man so [I can't come in as well]. If I forced my way in it would cause a commotion."

Aerith is able to just walk in the door. Cloud can't do this, and storming in would cause problems. This doesn't say anything about him not going in or thinking of another way.

「かといってエアリスに いかせるわけには…… いや、しかし……」
"But [I can't] make/let Aerith go... no, however..."

'Oh man' is 'no, however/but...' in the Japanese script (he cuts the previous line short, skipping the いかない from the end). He cuts off his previous thought and starts to think of something else, possibly involving Aerith going in alone (since that's what he was just talking about). Maybe she goes in and lets Cloud in somehow. Who knows with scenarios that never happened. (Though that is still a thousand times more pleasant an idea than 'leave Tifa in peril because baaaw I'm a man').

「まず、ティファの安全が 確認できな……」
"First, we [have to] make sure Tifa is safe...'

Cut off again (...ないと・なくてはならない・etc.) but obviously for a different reason. But he's already thinking of a plan. And the first part of this plan is confirming that Tifa is safe. Not 'how do I keep Aerith safe'.

If he is wondering if Tifa is safe, then he obviously isn't thinking she will be fine on her own. At this point he doesn't know she is there on her own volition. So to suggest that Cloud was ready to give up and leave in this scene is saying that he was willing to leave Tifa, who he has known since childhood and currently works with and cares about to some minimal degree reserved for anyone who isn't Aerith, in a situation where her 'sexual safety' (and possibly physical safety) is in jeopardy. He is set to leave her there to face whatever may happen, in a place with such a sordid reputation.

This is what people mean when they criticise 'Clerith Cloud'. Situations like this that are apparently perfectly fine and just go to show you how much more he cares for Aerith. This is the character we are supposed to relate to.


To say that he might not have gone in is pulling stuff out of thin air because we aren't given any information to support that notion. After talking to the doorman, Aerith decides herself that she'll go in. Cloud doesn't even have a chance to say anything. Aerith has hijacked the conversation with her own ideas, and she won't listen to anyone else.

Again, Cloud didn't know for sure if Tifa was safe since he says they need to check if she is. So Cloud, having seen where Tifa was, would just leave her in danger? This is all based on Cloud saying he can't just waltz in the front door? Once he's inside and finds out about her plan it's a different matter, but outside the door it is just you suggesting that he would leave her there to fend for herself because there is no easy way to get in.