Aerobalance
yukkuri shitete ne~
- AKA
- Rye
The Love Triangle Debate thread of KNEEL BEFORE ZOD OR SUFFER HIS WRATH (ignore the opening posts at your peril) (Round 6)
- Thread starter Max Payne
- Start date
- Status
Sprites
Waiting for something
- AKA
- Gems
Hawkeye said:
The problem I have Tres is I DID bring up a new point and when I asked why he wouldn't respond to me as I wanted his view on this as he was so determined to prove why Cloud is only concerned for Aerith in Don Corneo’s mansion and I gave him a point to respond back to he responded with this to me.
BlankBeat said:
How is that being put off responding to posts about the actual topic, he’s choosing to ignore my response because he’s never really debated with me
I actually feel put off about posting in here from now if that’s the type of response I get from someone.
Strangelove
AI Researcher
- AKA
- hitoshura
i don't prefer tifa over aerith or aerith over tifa and still see c/t. not everyone is incapable of looking at things rationally.
Cloud and Tifa had OtWtaS and AC to tell their story. That was them finished, there's not really anything else to tell. What do you learn about Cid in AC? He gets a new airship. That's it. Japan didn't even get his appearance in OtWtaS until ACC was released. DC was the most they knew about Cid's life post-FFVII for years.
Cid being married is news, we didn't know that. We didn't really know if he went back to Shera. Cloud and Tifa being in one isn't really the same deal, because if you looked at the big picture you can work that out on your own. They start one in OtWtaS, have problems but then it's resolved in AC. Then we're told Cloud goes back to live with Tifa afterwards (CC Ultimania, CC Complete Guide, simple deduction).
Having an NPC saying 'Cloud and Tifa are in a relationship' is redundant, if you look at the overall story and see that they were starting a relationship before having problems then resolving them. Saying they're married isn't the only way people can be in a 'proper romantic relationship'. Having kids isn't the only sign that people love each other (plus they are already raising one child, the strength of your love doesn't increase with each kid that gets pumped out).
DC doesn't say anything about Cloud and Tifa's relationship. So how does that lead to "the future Cloud and Tifa have together sure doesn't seem to be getting much better after AC"? Is that in the same way as 'Barret is around/was around for a short time' means that they can't be starting a relationship?
Square have used the same phrasing to talk about Cloud and Tifa as they have to talk about other romantic couples in other FFVII (hopefully Danseru-kun doesn't mind that I'm linking to her post which compiles many of these quotes): http://danseru-kun.tumblr.com/post/40338671251/cloud-and-tifas-feelings-for-each-other
These are things that actually happened. They were all actually said.
Do these not count as references to them as a 'romantic couple'? Referring to them in the same way as other romantic couples? Using the exact same words?
You use Nojiima's 'things might have gone better with Aerith' quote to back up a hypothetical scenario where they have a relationship (which I guess is better than the hypothetical 'Cloud wouldn't have saved Tifa' scenario backed up by nothing but 'oh man...'), but by comparing a potential relationship with Aerith he is basically saying that Cloud and Tifa are in one now. One with problems, but still a relationship none the less. Because if you're viewing one with Aerith as a romantic relationship, then that puts Cloud and Tifa in one. Post-FFVII, post-Highwind scene. Which would have non-Sephiroth/Geostigma problems, which would be the other stuff we know about Cloud: his guilt about the past and fear of losing the happiness he now has would still trouble him. That's not really making assumptions about unknowns, that's taking what we already see in the story and has been mentioned in other material. That's basically the story of OtWtaS prior to Cloud contracting Geostigma.
He is also talking about going into writing OtWtaS, where there would be problems between Cloud and Tifa (conflict in a piece of fiction, what a shock). Setting up the reason Cloud is distant in AC. This isn't about Cloud and Tifa's general compatibility forever (when other material says they reach a better understanding post-AC), it's about the specific story he was telling.
So Cloud and Tifa confess their feelings, start a relationship, have problems, resolve those problems, and get back together. How can you get more common sense than that? That's one of the most formulaic story structures in existence.
I still don't see how points like 'Cloud expresses a desire to be with Aerith in the end of FFVII' (still waiting for a reply on that, despite replies for posts that came later being made already) mesh with 'Cloud loves both'. Except like Octo said, 'he loves both but Aerith better'. Expressing a desire to be with someone while you hold the other person you only just confessed mutual feelings for in your arms sounds like picking one over the other. By saying he wants to be with the other woman, while the rival is right there available in front of him, is picking one over the other. It's not really 'he loves them both' when he is turning down one he also loves (though the way it is talked about this is suspect) for the sake of another.
Holding Tifa in his arms, on the brink of death and after confessing his feelings for her, and saying 'I want to be with Aerith in my land of supreme happiness' sounds like a definite interpretation towards one side in particular and not a wishy-washy 'they're both canon' one. How does that work?
and i still doubt the ffix 'cameo' for exactly the reasons i mentioned before, namely that it only seems like something western fans take as a 'cloud/aerith' reference and square being completely silent about it despite all the other trivial things they mention. despite all the books they've put out they don't say one thing about it? common sense says that's a bit strange, considering we were told that there's an ffvii-reference in a ffxi item but not about a cameo to the relationship between two of ffvii's major characters?
Cloud and Tifa had OtWtaS and AC to tell their story. That was them finished, there's not really anything else to tell. What do you learn about Cid in AC? He gets a new airship. That's it. Japan didn't even get his appearance in OtWtaS until ACC was released. DC was the most they knew about Cid's life post-FFVII for years.
Cid being married is news, we didn't know that. We didn't really know if he went back to Shera. Cloud and Tifa being in one isn't really the same deal, because if you looked at the big picture you can work that out on your own. They start one in OtWtaS, have problems but then it's resolved in AC. Then we're told Cloud goes back to live with Tifa afterwards (CC Ultimania, CC Complete Guide, simple deduction).
Having an NPC saying 'Cloud and Tifa are in a relationship' is redundant, if you look at the overall story and see that they were starting a relationship before having problems then resolving them. Saying they're married isn't the only way people can be in a 'proper romantic relationship'. Having kids isn't the only sign that people love each other (plus they are already raising one child, the strength of your love doesn't increase with each kid that gets pumped out).
DC doesn't say anything about Cloud and Tifa's relationship. So how does that lead to "the future Cloud and Tifa have together sure doesn't seem to be getting much better after AC"? Is that in the same way as 'Barret is around/was around for a short time' means that they can't be starting a relationship?
Square have used the same phrasing to talk about Cloud and Tifa as they have to talk about other romantic couples in other FFVII (hopefully Danseru-kun doesn't mind that I'm linking to her post which compiles many of these quotes): http://danseru-kun.tumblr.com/post/40338671251/cloud-and-tifas-feelings-for-each-other
(FFVII Ultimania Omega, pg. 15; Cloud’s profile)
最終決戦を前に一時解散を宣言し、飛空艇に残ったティファと想いを通わせる。
“Declares that the team should dissolve in the final hours before the final battle, and communicates his feelings together with Tifa, who remains behind at the airship with him.”
(FFVII Ultimania Omega, pg. 27; Tifa’s profile)
クラウドの提案で一時解散することになるが、飛空艇に残り、クラウドと想いを通わせる。
“When Cloud proposes that the group separates temporarily, she remains behind at the airship and communicates her feelings together with Cloud. “
(Crisis Core Ultimania, pg. 33; Tifa’s profile)
クラウドとは物語の終盤に想いを通わせ、「AC」「DC」の時代は一緒に暮らしている。
“She communicates her feelings together with Cloud in the final stages of the story, and in AC and DC they live together.”
***
「VI」すれちがいの果てに
帝国の将軍と反帝国組織の一員 — お互いの立場ゆえにすれちがっていたセリスとロックは、長い期間を経てようやく想いを通わせた。
The imperial general and the anti-empire organization member — Celes and Locke’s relation to one another is like ships passing in the night; it’s a long period before they get to communicate their feelings completely.
FF 20th AU “For the One I Love”
***
ティンバー独立を目指すレジスタンス「森のフクロウ」に身を置く、 人なつっこくて快活な少女。 SeeDとして派遣されたスコールたちと行動をともにし、 自身の当初の目的ではない魔女討伐作戦にも協力。 戦いのさなかイデアから魔女の力を継承してしまい、 自分が世界中の人々の敵となることに恐れを抱くが、 想いを通わせたスコールに守られつつ アルティミシアに立ち向かう。
"A friendly and cheerful young woman, part of the resistance group called the Forest Owls, whose goal is the liberation of Timber. She joins in Squall and co.’s activities when they are dispatched by SeeD, and also participates in the witch assassination plot, which she wasn’t supposed to be involved with. During a battle, she inherits the powers of a witch from Edea; she begins to fear that she will become an enemy of the whole world, but Squall communicates his feelings to her and battles Ultimecia to protect her.”
FF 25th AU Vol. 2
***
恋のはじまりはカンちがいから
ベアトリクスにとってスタイナーはただ一度敗北を喫した相手であり、双方ともに対抗意識を燃やしていた。だが、エーコのラブレターを互いが互いに宛てたものだとカンちがい して以来、ふたりは意識し合うようになり、エンディングで想いを通わせる。
A Love That Started With A Misunderstanding
To Beatrix, Steiner is the one opponent who has defeated her, and they both harbour a rivalry towards each other. But after mistaking Eiko’s love letter for one sent to them from each other, they start to take notice of one another and in the ending make their feelings known.
FF 25th AU Vol. 2
***
110 of the U20 Scenario:
——
“Reunited safely, Rosa and Cecil embrace one another, confirming their feelings for each other.”
Japanese text:
無事に再会を果たしたローザとセシルは、思わず抱き合ってお互いの想いを確かめる。
***
三つ編みの図書委員とのロマンス
教師陣からは問題児あつかいされているものの、生徒やバラムの人々からの人気はそこそこ。なかでも三つ編みの図書委員には好意を持たれており、やがて彼女から想いを打ち明 けられる。
Romance with the Library Committee Member With Braids
Despite being seen as a trouble maker by the faculty, he is fairly popular with the students and people of Balamb. In particular the member of the library committee with the braided hair likes him, and eventually she reveals her feelings to him.
FF 25th AU Vol. 2
***
FFX UO pg. 60
——
At the mysterious spring that glitters like the stars, the two kiss and embrace many times, confirming their feelings for one another.
Japanese text:
星をのようにきらめく神秘の泉のなで、ふたりは、(互いの想い)を確かめ合うかのように幾度も抱擁し、唇を重ねた。
***
(FFVII 10th Anniversary Ultimania, pg. 118; pg. 120 in the Revised Edition; story summary)
残ったクラウドとティファは、(互いへの想い)を打ち明け、確かめ合う。
“Cloud and Tifa, who remain, reveal their feelings for each other together.”
(FF 20th Anniversary Ultimania File 2: Scenario, pg. 232; main body of FFVII’s story summary)
そして、ふたり、きりになったクラウドとティファは、残された最後の時間で(互いの想い)を打ち明け合う。
“And when Cloud and Tifa remain behind alone, in their final hours, together they disclose their feelings for each other.”
(FFVII Ultimania Omega, pg. 198; story summary)
大切な人の待つ場所へと仲間が散っていき、ふたりきりになたクラドとティファ。残された最後の時間でお(互いの想い)を打ち明け、そして……。
“When their companions disperse to the places where people important to them await, Cloud and Tifa are the only two to remain behind. They reveal their mutual feelings in their final hours, and…….”
最終決戦を前に一時解散を宣言し、飛空艇に残ったティファと想いを通わせる。
“Declares that the team should dissolve in the final hours before the final battle, and communicates his feelings together with Tifa, who remains behind at the airship with him.”
(FFVII Ultimania Omega, pg. 27; Tifa’s profile)
クラウドの提案で一時解散することになるが、飛空艇に残り、クラウドと想いを通わせる。
“When Cloud proposes that the group separates temporarily, she remains behind at the airship and communicates her feelings together with Cloud. “
(Crisis Core Ultimania, pg. 33; Tifa’s profile)
クラウドとは物語の終盤に想いを通わせ、「AC」「DC」の時代は一緒に暮らしている。
“She communicates her feelings together with Cloud in the final stages of the story, and in AC and DC they live together.”
***
「VI」すれちがいの果てに
帝国の将軍と反帝国組織の一員 — お互いの立場ゆえにすれちがっていたセリスとロックは、長い期間を経てようやく想いを通わせた。
The imperial general and the anti-empire organization member — Celes and Locke’s relation to one another is like ships passing in the night; it’s a long period before they get to communicate their feelings completely.
FF 20th AU “For the One I Love”
***
ティンバー独立を目指すレジスタンス「森のフクロウ」に身を置く、 人なつっこくて快活な少女。 SeeDとして派遣されたスコールたちと行動をともにし、 自身の当初の目的ではない魔女討伐作戦にも協力。 戦いのさなかイデアから魔女の力を継承してしまい、 自分が世界中の人々の敵となることに恐れを抱くが、 想いを通わせたスコールに守られつつ アルティミシアに立ち向かう。
"A friendly and cheerful young woman, part of the resistance group called the Forest Owls, whose goal is the liberation of Timber. She joins in Squall and co.’s activities when they are dispatched by SeeD, and also participates in the witch assassination plot, which she wasn’t supposed to be involved with. During a battle, she inherits the powers of a witch from Edea; she begins to fear that she will become an enemy of the whole world, but Squall communicates his feelings to her and battles Ultimecia to protect her.”
FF 25th AU Vol. 2
***
恋のはじまりはカンちがいから
ベアトリクスにとってスタイナーはただ一度敗北を喫した相手であり、双方ともに対抗意識を燃やしていた。だが、エーコのラブレターを互いが互いに宛てたものだとカンちがい して以来、ふたりは意識し合うようになり、エンディングで想いを通わせる。
A Love That Started With A Misunderstanding
To Beatrix, Steiner is the one opponent who has defeated her, and they both harbour a rivalry towards each other. But after mistaking Eiko’s love letter for one sent to them from each other, they start to take notice of one another and in the ending make their feelings known.
FF 25th AU Vol. 2
***
110 of the U20 Scenario:
——
“Reunited safely, Rosa and Cecil embrace one another, confirming their feelings for each other.”
Japanese text:
無事に再会を果たしたローザとセシルは、思わず抱き合ってお互いの想いを確かめる。
***
三つ編みの図書委員とのロマンス
教師陣からは問題児あつかいされているものの、生徒やバラムの人々からの人気はそこそこ。なかでも三つ編みの図書委員には好意を持たれており、やがて彼女から想いを打ち明 けられる。
Romance with the Library Committee Member With Braids
Despite being seen as a trouble maker by the faculty, he is fairly popular with the students and people of Balamb. In particular the member of the library committee with the braided hair likes him, and eventually she reveals her feelings to him.
FF 25th AU Vol. 2
***
FFX UO pg. 60
——
At the mysterious spring that glitters like the stars, the two kiss and embrace many times, confirming their feelings for one another.
Japanese text:
星をのようにきらめく神秘の泉のなで、ふたりは、(互いの想い)を確かめ合うかのように幾度も抱擁し、唇を重ねた。
***
(FFVII 10th Anniversary Ultimania, pg. 118; pg. 120 in the Revised Edition; story summary)
残ったクラウドとティファは、(互いへの想い)を打ち明け、確かめ合う。
“Cloud and Tifa, who remain, reveal their feelings for each other together.”
(FF 20th Anniversary Ultimania File 2: Scenario, pg. 232; main body of FFVII’s story summary)
そして、ふたり、きりになったクラウドとティファは、残された最後の時間で(互いの想い)を打ち明け合う。
“And when Cloud and Tifa remain behind alone, in their final hours, together they disclose their feelings for each other.”
(FFVII Ultimania Omega, pg. 198; story summary)
大切な人の待つ場所へと仲間が散っていき、ふたりきりになたクラドとティファ。残された最後の時間でお(互いの想い)を打ち明け、そして……。
“When their companions disperse to the places where people important to them await, Cloud and Tifa are the only two to remain behind. They reveal their mutual feelings in their final hours, and…….”
These are things that actually happened. They were all actually said.
Do these not count as references to them as a 'romantic couple'? Referring to them in the same way as other romantic couples? Using the exact same words?
You use Nojiima's 'things might have gone better with Aerith' quote to back up a hypothetical scenario where they have a relationship (which I guess is better than the hypothetical 'Cloud wouldn't have saved Tifa' scenario backed up by nothing but 'oh man...'), but by comparing a potential relationship with Aerith he is basically saying that Cloud and Tifa are in one now. One with problems, but still a relationship none the less. Because if you're viewing one with Aerith as a romantic relationship, then that puts Cloud and Tifa in one. Post-FFVII, post-Highwind scene. Which would have non-Sephiroth/Geostigma problems, which would be the other stuff we know about Cloud: his guilt about the past and fear of losing the happiness he now has would still trouble him. That's not really making assumptions about unknowns, that's taking what we already see in the story and has been mentioned in other material. That's basically the story of OtWtaS prior to Cloud contracting Geostigma.
He is also talking about going into writing OtWtaS, where there would be problems between Cloud and Tifa (conflict in a piece of fiction, what a shock). Setting up the reason Cloud is distant in AC. This isn't about Cloud and Tifa's general compatibility forever (when other material says they reach a better understanding post-AC), it's about the specific story he was telling.
So Cloud and Tifa confess their feelings, start a relationship, have problems, resolve those problems, and get back together. How can you get more common sense than that? That's one of the most formulaic story structures in existence.
I still don't see how points like 'Cloud expresses a desire to be with Aerith in the end of FFVII' (still waiting for a reply on that, despite replies for posts that came later being made already) mesh with 'Cloud loves both'. Except like Octo said, 'he loves both but Aerith better'. Expressing a desire to be with someone while you hold the other person you only just confessed mutual feelings for in your arms sounds like picking one over the other. By saying he wants to be with the other woman, while the rival is right there available in front of him, is picking one over the other. It's not really 'he loves them both' when he is turning down one he also loves (though the way it is talked about this is suspect) for the sake of another.
Holding Tifa in his arms, on the brink of death and after confessing his feelings for her, and saying 'I want to be with Aerith in my land of supreme happiness' sounds like a definite interpretation towards one side in particular and not a wishy-washy 'they're both canon' one. How does that work?
and i still doubt the ffix 'cameo' for exactly the reasons i mentioned before, namely that it only seems like something western fans take as a 'cloud/aerith' reference and square being completely silent about it despite all the other trivial things they mention. despite all the books they've put out they don't say one thing about it? common sense says that's a bit strange, considering we were told that there's an ffvii-reference in a ffxi item but not about a cameo to the relationship between two of ffvii's major characters?
congrads on your promotion to emperor of everyone else's opinion, tres. arbiter of what everyone else must believemultiple times now it has been said:
i know when i saw my ex the first thing i felt like doing was dragging a large blade through the spine of a dragon monster
Knuxson
Pro Adventurer
Also, in Case of Barret, when Cid finds out from Barret that Cloud and Tifa are living together the conversation goes like this:
So Cloud’s with Tifa?”
“Yeah. Tifa opened a bar, just like the old days. Cloud was helpin’ out, but it sounds like he’s got his own business keepin’ him tied up now. A delivery service.”
“Cloud? Run a business?”
“You can bet it’s Tifa kickin’ his ass into shape.”
“I see. In the end, it’s the women wear the pants.”
“How’s Shera?”
“Meh, she’s about the same,” dodged Cid.
This conversation is very telling. Cid says that it's the women who wear the pants, which is a saying usually associated with romantically involved couples, not just people who happen to live together in an unromantic fashion. Also, right after that, Barret asks Cid how Shera is. This is important because we know that Cid and Shera are together. The reason Barret asks this question is because their current conversation is about Cloud and Tifa's life as a couple. It continues naturally on that same topic from Cloud and Tifa to Cid and Shera.
So Cloud’s with Tifa?”
“Yeah. Tifa opened a bar, just like the old days. Cloud was helpin’ out, but it sounds like he’s got his own business keepin’ him tied up now. A delivery service.”
“Cloud? Run a business?”
“You can bet it’s Tifa kickin’ his ass into shape.”
“I see. In the end, it’s the women wear the pants.”
“How’s Shera?”
“Meh, she’s about the same,” dodged Cid.
This conversation is very telling. Cid says that it's the women who wear the pants, which is a saying usually associated with romantically involved couples, not just people who happen to live together in an unromantic fashion. Also, right after that, Barret asks Cid how Shera is. This is important because we know that Cid and Shera are together. The reason Barret asks this question is because their current conversation is about Cloud and Tifa's life as a couple. It continues naturally on that same topic from Cloud and Tifa to Cid and Shera.
The Twilight Mexican
Ex-SeeD-ingly good
- AKA
- TresDias
I see what you did there.
hito said:
You definitely did bring up some valid reasons to have doubts about that. It would have to be one hell of a coincidence, though. I'm baffled that no Japanese players have made the connection.
hito said:
It's a heavy burden. =(
hito said:
If "large blade" is your euphemism for your penis and "dragon monster" is your euphemism for your ex.
Now it's a proper CloudxAerith analogy. 
BlankBeat
Pro Adventurer
I'll be writing up responses to Strangelove, Quex, Hawk, The Colour Out of Space, Ryu, and Sprites over the weekend when I have the time, so be prepared for a lengthy response. But I just wanted to clarify something:
My point was that it's very hard to debate with several people at once. When I saw your post, I was already debating with several people, so the last thing I had time for was to start a back-and-forth with yet another person. EDIT: In fact, I don't even think your post specifically addressed me or anything I said -- it was simply a post on its own.
Anyway -- I think this is just a misunderstanding, but after reading all the hurtful things you had to say about me, at least I know now what type of person I'm dealing with.
You are reading way too much into what I said. And now you've accused me of all sorts of hurtful things that aren't true, which is really sad but not unusual for this site.
My point was that it's very hard to debate with several people at once. When I saw your post, I was already debating with several people, so the last thing I had time for was to start a back-and-forth with yet another person. EDIT: In fact, I don't even think your post specifically addressed me or anything I said -- it was simply a post on its own.
Anyway -- I think this is just a misunderstanding, but after reading all the hurtful things you had to say about me, at least I know now what type of person I'm dealing with.
Last edited:
Sprites
Waiting for something
- AKA
- Gems
@BB: Are you for real? Seriously you know nothing about me so don't dare try and say you know what type of person you're dealing with...just don't, whereas I've read enough of your posts to know what type of person I'm dealing with.
Normally when someone brings up a new argumentative point, the opposing debater seizes on it right away so they can counter-argue it, nope you didn't do that instead you said you didn't want to debate with someone you didn't really know even though I was offering a different perspective to challenge on your feelings of why Cloud was so concerned for Aerith in that one particular scene...how do you think that made ME feel, belittled as hell that's what considering you also said something along the lines of "if you want me to look at your posts...I'll TRY and get round to them" Patronising much?
Now you've twisted it to make me out as some kind of bitch and this is all some misunderstanding, it's not and don't try and flip it on it's head...congratuwelldone, there's me feeling belittled by you again.
I apologise if I hurt your feelings but you did it first! Shouldn't give it if you can't take it, stones in glass houses and everything people have said before.
Moving on...
@Hito: I'll admit I always felt there was some reference to Cloud and Aerith's first meeting in the scene in FFIX, but I never saw it as romantic, I just saw it as a nod towards those two characters and a scene that's very well known in FFVII. I know you've said it's a western thing but the implication and parallels make it feel similar, the meeting of a flower girl in a destroyed city, granted Midgar isn't a destroyed city as such but the slums pretty much are, but that's about it. I just felt it was a nice nod between the characters but it's subtle, very subtle, it's not like the event in FFIX where Rufus's welcoming ceremony song is an ATE, or where the Buster Sword in the weapon shop is highlighted with an explanation mark above Zidane's, it's only if you go out of your way to talk to those two NPCs in that area, it's no wonder it doesn't exactly get a mention, you wouldn't know about it unless you went out of your way to find it.
Edit: OWD thanks for clarifying that, sorry just wasn't sure if that was directed at me or not.
Normally when someone brings up a new argumentative point, the opposing debater seizes on it right away so they can counter-argue it, nope you didn't do that instead you said you didn't want to debate with someone you didn't really know even though I was offering a different perspective to challenge on your feelings of why Cloud was so concerned for Aerith in that one particular scene...how do you think that made ME feel, belittled as hell that's what considering you also said something along the lines of "if you want me to look at your posts...I'll TRY and get round to them" Patronising much?
Now you've twisted it to make me out as some kind of bitch and this is all some misunderstanding, it's not and don't try and flip it on it's head...congratuwelldone, there's me feeling belittled by you again.
I apologise if I hurt your feelings but you did it first! Shouldn't give it if you can't take it, stones in glass houses and everything people have said before.
Moving on...
@Hito: I'll admit I always felt there was some reference to Cloud and Aerith's first meeting in the scene in FFIX, but I never saw it as romantic, I just saw it as a nod towards those two characters and a scene that's very well known in FFVII. I know you've said it's a western thing but the implication and parallels make it feel similar, the meeting of a flower girl in a destroyed city, granted Midgar isn't a destroyed city as such but the slums pretty much are, but that's about it. I just felt it was a nice nod between the characters but it's subtle, very subtle, it's not like the event in FFIX where Rufus's welcoming ceremony song is an ATE, or where the Buster Sword in the weapon shop is highlighted with an explanation mark above Zidane's, it's only if you go out of your way to talk to those two NPCs in that area, it's no wonder it doesn't exactly get a mention, you wouldn't know about it unless you went out of your way to find it.
Edit: OWD thanks for clarifying that, sorry just wasn't sure if that was directed at me or not.
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BlankBeat
Pro Adventurer
One of the things I want to discuss before I get around to everyone's responses is the FTOIL page.
Why can't the FTOIL page be used as evidence in support of Cloud and Aerith, too?
SE believes Cloud's date is romantic enough to include on the FTOIL page. And although SE does not specify which date they are specifically referring to, the Cloud x Aerith date *IS* pictured (a picture is worth a thousand words).
And the reason I know the Clerith date is not a placeholder is because we have been told that the Clerith date is the *CANON* date. Therefore, it is irrelevant that the caption doesn't directly mention the Clerith date because we know, from other sources, that the Clerith date *IS* canon.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that the reason the Clerith date is pictured is because SE views it as the canon date, therefore it is irrelevant that the caption doesn't directly mention the Clerith date.
So if SE views the Clerith date as canon, and they believe Cloud's date is worthy to be included on the FTOIL page (therefore elevating it to other moments of romance in the Final Fantasy series), isn't this evidence in favor of Clerith?
Interestingly, this is the only love triangle where the hero is pictured with both of his romantic love interests.
--------------------
To be honest, when I saw your post, it wasn't directed directly at me. You weren't responding to a specific claim of mine, you were simply making your own observation about the topic at hand. But if you want me to respond to it, I will.
But the intention of my post was not to say you aren't worthy of my time, it was to tell you I don't have un-limited time.
Why can't the FTOIL page be used as evidence in support of Cloud and Aerith, too?
SE believes Cloud's date is romantic enough to include on the FTOIL page. And although SE does not specify which date they are specifically referring to, the Cloud x Aerith date *IS* pictured (a picture is worth a thousand words).
And the reason I know the Clerith date is not a placeholder is because we have been told that the Clerith date is the *CANON* date. Therefore, it is irrelevant that the caption doesn't directly mention the Clerith date because we know, from other sources, that the Clerith date *IS* canon.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that the reason the Clerith date is pictured is because SE views it as the canon date, therefore it is irrelevant that the caption doesn't directly mention the Clerith date.
So if SE views the Clerith date as canon, and they believe Cloud's date is worthy to be included on the FTOIL page (therefore elevating it to other moments of romance in the Final Fantasy series), isn't this evidence in favor of Clerith?
Interestingly, this is the only love triangle where the hero is pictured with both of his romantic love interests.
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I read your post where you accused me of being a troll in the "highest form" and someone who enjoys riling people up. Based on that, I now know what type of person I'm dealing with.
My original post simply said I didn't want to engage in yet another back-and-forth because I was already debating with numerous people. It wasn't personal, it was reality -- I don't have the ability to debate with numerous people at once.
To be honest, when I saw your post, it wasn't directed directly at me. You weren't responding to a specific claim of mine, you were simply making your own observation about the topic at hand. But if you want me to respond to it, I will.
I'm perfectly capable of both dishing it out and taking it.
But the intention of my post was not to say you aren't worthy of my time, it was to tell you I don't have un-limited time.
Strangelove
AI Researcher
- AKA
- hitoshura
I can see why people believe that, but I am suspicious of it being a 'romantic C/A cameo'. This isn't really like FFT where one is 'Aerith' and the other is clearly Cloud. This is an NPC who happens to sell flowers being hit on by a character who sounds, acts, and looks nothing like Cloud. Apart from being 'Knight no. 7', he's completely different. He's Cloud in number alone.
Haagen is nothing like Squall, Laudo isn't like Cecil (unless I don't remember his secret ambition to be an author). The Knights themselves aren't really references to the past games, it's more a reference to the number '9' than anything else.
If this is meant to be a romantic cameo, it's a cameo where one character is nothing like his original counterpart and the other says he is basically just a pretty face.
The FFVII Ultimania Omega mentions dozens of little references to FFVII in other games, including ability names in FFVIII and character names in Crystal Chronicles or the 'Cloud anti-virus' and 'Aerith' magazine in Parasite Eve 2, but not this one. FFIX's own Ultimania mentions the weapon shop Cloud reference and Rufus' welcoming ceremony music, but again not this. 'Atla' is a reference to Chocobo's Mystery Dungeon, and 'Wayne' and 'Tores' are from Parasite Eve, 'no place to put a medal' being a parody of a certain horror game, but nothing about a reference to Cloud and Aerith? No one thought 'this is a neat little reference to Cloud and Aerith in FFIX, I'm going to post about it online somewhere so other people can know about it'?
It's the difference between 'this is cute' and 'this is a signal from Square about Cloud and Aerith's love'.
i probably would have done that because i am a chumpIf "large blade" is your euphemism for your penis and "dragon monster" is your euphemism for your ex.
Gym Leader Devil
True Master of the Dark-type (suck it Piers)
- AKA
- So many names
Because the page doesn't mention her. At all. It talks about Cloud and Tifa, with a tiny blurb mentioning some other chuckle-fucks can date Cloud at the Gold Saucer. That's why.
So, I answered despite knowing better, do me the courtesy of answering a question in return. We've covered this many times already in this thread. Many, many times. Why are you even asking again?
Its related to romance, but it lacks anything like the importance of Cloud and Tifa communicating their mutual romantic feelings. Which is why it doesn't bother to actually talk about anyone but those two. And while a picture may be worth a thousand words, they're not the words you want to hear.
I don't actually recall, where did we see the confirmation that THIS was the canon date? Can I get a source? Genuine apology if I've just forgotten it. But, let's just assume you're right and the date with Aerith is canon. ...so what? Its still irrelevant to the FTOIL page. The page still doesn't mention the dates beyond "they happen, with one of four people." It changes nothing about what happens after, which is Cloud and Tifa getting all mutual and such *wink wink*
I thought we had official confirmation of this? Didn't you JUST say as much? If it's canon, you don't have to "interpret" SE's intent in using the picture, do ya? So pick one, official or you guessing, which is it?
You're close. The caption and picture themselves are irrelevant. They have no bearing on the LTD's resolution.
Again, pick one and please give me sources if you pick "SE says its canon" would ya?
No. Just no. The date being mentioned on the page in no way elevates it to the level of the other romantic pairing moments. Its mentioned as a related topic, it is not even close to being on the same level. It is, to be honest, evidence of absolutely nothing.
And this means roughly dick.
I was gonna comment on the rest of this post, but then realized anything I could say would come of as white knighting. Which Sprites likely doesn't want and definitely doesn't need. Cause Sprites is awesome <3
The Twilight Mexican
Ex-SeeD-ingly good
- AKA
- TresDias
We've played out that song and dance, dude. It's not happening again. Just no. [EDIT: Goddammit, GLD. =P]
No one cares if the date is canon. It is. We know that. No one cares about finding "evidence in favor of Clerith" right now. Everyone here knows that Cloud had romantic feelings for Aerith. We also all know those feelings weren't discussed or even revealed during the date, but that's not the point.
The point is that it isn't necessary to discuss it, neither to prove Cloud loved Aerith (again: we know) nor because "evidence in favor of Clerith" is equivalent to "evidence against Cloti" (it isn't). Please stop trying to derail everything by acting like anyone here needs to be convinced that Cloud loved Aerith.
For fuck's sake, no one has been ranting and raving about the validity of Clerith but you. The past few dozen pages have been almost entirely about you denying that Cloud cared about Tifa enough to see to her well-being in Wall Market with you occasionally claiming that you're just trying to show that Cloud cared about Aerith.
Who do you think needs convincing of that?
BlankBeat said:
So you saw her post and read it. Recognized that she was disagreeing with you. Recognized that she was making an observation no one had yet made. Recognized her addressing you by name as she did so ("Kinda shows that BB...you're only picking up on parts in that script that suit you ..."). Yet you didn't think her post was directed at you or merited a response?
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Gym Leader Devil
True Master of the Dark-type (suck it Piers)
- AKA
- So many names
BlankBeat
Pro Adventurer
Gym Leader Devil --
The fact that SE wanted to talk about as many romantic scenes as possible on the FTOIL page makes complete sense. By picturing the *canon* Clerith date and then discussing that there are 4 possible dates allows SE to achieve two goals -- they are able to give preferential treatment to the *canon* date because it's pictured, but they are also able to discuss as many romantic scenes as possible on the FTOIL page.
However, there is only *ONE* version of the Highwind scene that is appropriate to talk about and include on the FTOIL page, and that version is the HA version. The reason why the LA version is nowhere to be seen or mentioned on the FTOIL page is because it is not appropriate for it to be included. Why would the LA version be included? It's not romantic.
But even though the LA version was not appropriate to include on the FTOIL page, SE still includes a reference page that you can flip to that says there are *TWO* versions of the Highwind scene that depend on affection points.
But the bottom line is -- there are four romantic dates which are all referenced and represented on the FTOIL page (as they should be). But because there is only one romantic version of the Highwind scene, only the HA Highwind scene was referenced on the FTOIIL page.
But if you could get the HA Highwind scene with different characters (as you can for the date), you better believe that would have been included on the FTOIL page.
SE obviously pictured Cloud and Aerith because we are meant to apply the FTOIL more specifically to their *canon* date.
This is what was included in the "LTD over" article when commenting on the CxA date caption:
"Nothing so amazing, no, all it tells us is that the date itself is up to player control, so no one version is ‘official,’ but the next section is not only what hopefully will make for a swift end to the LTD, but also confirms a scenario I have been arguing in favor of for quite a number of years."
But my argument is that despite the caption not saying which version is official, we have evidence that the CxA date *IS* canon. Therefore, the caption is irrelevant.
The caption was simply there to represent *ALL* the dates on the FTOIL page because *ALL* the dates are romantic (ie: because they are *DATES*). But SE obviously pictured Cloud and Aerith's date because it is the *canon* date, and because we are meant to apply the FTOIL page more directly to their date.
Again -- the only reason one version of the Highwind scene was included on the FTOIL page is because it would have been inappropriate to discuss or include the LA version on a page titled "For The One I Love". But if you could get different characters for the HA Highwind scene, you better believe that would have been included on the FTOIL page.
The date simply can't be compared to the Highwind scene (or any other romantic scene on that page, for that matter) because you can get four characters for the date, whereas there's only one character you can get during the HA Highwind scene. So in order to include all the romantic dates on the FTOIL page while also giving special treatment to the *canon* date, SE mentioned all the dates in the caption and pictured Cloud x Aerith's date.
On the contrary, only the HA Highwind scene was included on the FTOIL page because that is the only appropriate version to include. Which is exactly why SE lists a reference page on the FTOIL page so people can find out that the HA version is not the *only* version, it is simply the only appropriate version to include on the FTOIL page.
But just because the caption under Cloud and Aerith's date doesn't mention anything about them specifically doesn't mean their date isn't canon. And it also doesn't mean that the Cloud x Aerith date doesn't tell us the exact same thing that the HA Highwind scene does, which is that Cloud has feelings of love for Aerith.
Again -- if you could get different characters for the HA Highwind scene, that would have been specified on the FTOIL page just like all the dates were.
Why did SE decide to give the Clerith date preferential treatment on the FTOIL page?
Wouldn't picturing the Clerith date suggest we are meant to apply the FTOIL page more directly to the Clerith date?
“Oh, Cloud…I enjoyed our date at the Gold Saucer. The view from the gondola that night was really beautiful. I’ll never forget it. I’ll never forget you, Cloud…” ~Aerith, Final Fantasy VII Dismantled, Square Enix
This quote talks about a promised date taking place. There is only one promised date in the game -- Cloud and Aerith's:
“#111: The Planet’s largest amusement park is run by Dio. Cloud and company visit this place many times in their battle. They meet Cait Sith here. A **promised date** that ends in a magical night. In the city of desire that floats above the sands, the light memory of the two people is asleep even now…Aerith: “I think I must have seen him again, in you… But you’re different. Things are different… No, Cloud… I’m searching for you…” ~Final Fantasy Art Collection
SE says that the Clerith date is the normal outcome:
“In Aerith’s case, if you play the game normally,the partner that generally comes will be Aerith.” ~Final Fantasy VII Dismantled
Again -- the page is titled "For the One I Love". For the *ONE* I love. Cloud loves two women, which is why he is pictured with both of them on this page.
The fact that SE wanted to talk about as many romantic scenes as possible on the FTOIL page makes complete sense. By picturing the *canon* Clerith date and then discussing that there are 4 possible dates allows SE to achieve two goals -- they are able to give preferential treatment to the *canon* date because it's pictured, but they are also able to discuss as many romantic scenes as possible on the FTOIL page.
However, there is only *ONE* version of the Highwind scene that is appropriate to talk about and include on the FTOIL page, and that version is the HA version. The reason why the LA version is nowhere to be seen or mentioned on the FTOIL page is because it is not appropriate for it to be included. Why would the LA version be included? It's not romantic.
But even though the LA version was not appropriate to include on the FTOIL page, SE still includes a reference page that you can flip to that says there are *TWO* versions of the Highwind scene that depend on affection points.
But the bottom line is -- there are four romantic dates which are all referenced and represented on the FTOIL page (as they should be). But because there is only one romantic version of the Highwind scene, only the HA Highwind scene was referenced on the FTOIIL page.
But if you could get the HA Highwind scene with different characters (as you can for the date), you better believe that would have been included on the FTOIL page.
SE obviously pictured Cloud and Aerith because we are meant to apply the FTOIL more specifically to their *canon* date.
This is what was included in the "LTD over" article when commenting on the CxA date caption:
"Nothing so amazing, no, all it tells us is that the date itself is up to player control, so no one version is ‘official,’ but the next section is not only what hopefully will make for a swift end to the LTD, but also confirms a scenario I have been arguing in favor of for quite a number of years."
But my argument is that despite the caption not saying which version is official, we have evidence that the CxA date *IS* canon. Therefore, the caption is irrelevant.
The caption was simply there to represent *ALL* the dates on the FTOIL page because *ALL* the dates are romantic (ie: because they are *DATES*). But SE obviously pictured Cloud and Aerith's date because it is the *canon* date, and because we are meant to apply the FTOIL page more directly to their date.
Again -- the only reason one version of the Highwind scene was included on the FTOIL page is because it would have been inappropriate to discuss or include the LA version on a page titled "For The One I Love". But if you could get different characters for the HA Highwind scene, you better believe that would have been included on the FTOIL page.
The date simply can't be compared to the Highwind scene (or any other romantic scene on that page, for that matter) because you can get four characters for the date, whereas there's only one character you can get during the HA Highwind scene. So in order to include all the romantic dates on the FTOIL page while also giving special treatment to the *canon* date, SE mentioned all the dates in the caption and pictured Cloud x Aerith's date.
On the contrary, only the HA Highwind scene was included on the FTOIL page because that is the only appropriate version to include. Which is exactly why SE lists a reference page on the FTOIL page so people can find out that the HA version is not the *only* version, it is simply the only appropriate version to include on the FTOIL page.
But just because the caption under Cloud and Aerith's date doesn't mention anything about them specifically doesn't mean their date isn't canon. And it also doesn't mean that the Cloud x Aerith date doesn't tell us the exact same thing that the HA Highwind scene does, which is that Cloud has feelings of love for Aerith.
Again -- if you could get different characters for the HA Highwind scene, that would have been specified on the FTOIL page just like all the dates were.
But the page *DOES* picture Aerith.
Why did SE decide to give the Clerith date preferential treatment on the FTOIL page?
Wouldn't picturing the Clerith date suggest we are meant to apply the FTOIL page more directly to the Clerith date?
The page is titled, "For The One I Love". The page is not just about romantic moments, it's also about showing examples of heroes with the women they love. SE shows Cloud pictured with Aerith, a woman he loves. Seems pretty cut-and-dry to me.
Aerith speaks of the date in past tense:
“Oh, Cloud…I enjoyed our date at the Gold Saucer. The view from the gondola that night was really beautiful. I’ll never forget it. I’ll never forget you, Cloud…” ~Aerith, Final Fantasy VII Dismantled, Square Enix
This quote talks about a promised date taking place. There is only one promised date in the game -- Cloud and Aerith's:
“#111: The Planet’s largest amusement park is run by Dio. Cloud and company visit this place many times in their battle. They meet Cait Sith here. A **promised date** that ends in a magical night. In the city of desire that floats above the sands, the light memory of the two people is asleep even now…Aerith: “I think I must have seen him again, in you… But you’re different. Things are different… No, Cloud… I’m searching for you…” ~Final Fantasy Art Collection
SE says that the Clerith date is the normal outcome:
“In Aerith’s case, if you play the game normally,the partner that generally comes will be Aerith.” ~Final Fantasy VII Dismantled
Why is it irrelevant on the FTOIL page? SE is saying Cloud's date is worthy to be included on the FTOIL Page, and they have said that the Clerith date is canon, in addition to picturing it on the FTOIL page. Therefore, the Clerith date is an example of Cloud loving Aerith.
Again -- the page is titled "For the One I Love". For the *ONE* I love. Cloud loves two women, which is why he is pictured with both of them on this page.
BlankBeat
Pro Adventurer
I didn't respond because I wasn't interested in getting involved in yet another back-and-forth with yet another person. I think I've already explained this.
The Twilight Mexican
Ex-SeeD-ingly good
- AKA
- TresDias
That doesn't really make sense. Responding once doesn't mean there will be a back-and-forth to follow. And if a new, valuable observation has been made, it may well supersede the responses already awaiting your attention.
At the very least, a courtesy like "I'll come back to this" was warranted.
I think this kind of shows that you aren't interested in being proven wrong. You've decided that the only important dialogue in the scene is the bit you can paint to look like Cloud doesn't care so much whether Tifa is harmed as he does whether Aerith is, and you conveniently ignored a sound alternative explanation for why Cloud tried getting the civilian -- who had asked him to get her out of danger only hours before -- from getting herself mixed up in a terrorist organization's attempts to overthrow the established global authority.
Given that it was this very involvement with AVALANCHE that made Tseng decide to stop playing nice with her, perhaps Cloud was onto more than he realized? Or maybe you're right and he just wanted to make sure that if he only got to fuck one of the two, it would be Aerith.
At the very least, a courtesy like "I'll come back to this" was warranted.
I think this kind of shows that you aren't interested in being proven wrong. You've decided that the only important dialogue in the scene is the bit you can paint to look like Cloud doesn't care so much whether Tifa is harmed as he does whether Aerith is, and you conveniently ignored a sound alternative explanation for why Cloud tried getting the civilian -- who had asked him to get her out of danger only hours before -- from getting herself mixed up in a terrorist organization's attempts to overthrow the established global authority.
Given that it was this very involvement with AVALANCHE that made Tseng decide to stop playing nice with her, perhaps Cloud was onto more than he realized? Or maybe you're right and he just wanted to make sure that if he only got to fuck one of the two, it would be Aerith.
Kermitu Kleric Katie
KULT OF KERMITU
I actually figured it was not that Aerith can't take care of herself, it was that Cloud doesn't KNOW she can yet. 'Cause you got to remember, at this point in the game, unless you made her battle the Shinra guards, Cloud has yet to see Aerith fight, so he has no idea she can handle herself in battle.
The Twilight Mexican
Ex-SeeD-ingly good
- AKA
- TresDias
I believe that was Sprites' very point. Cloud knew this chick had been asking for rescue less than a day earlier, so why is he going to think she can handle herself if this situation -- with a criminal affiliated with the same guys she asked for rescue from -- turns sour?
Kermitu Kleric Katie
KULT OF KERMITU
Exactly. At this point as far as Cloud knows she's just some helpless innocent flower girl who's trying to get involved in something way too dangerous for her.
Addendum: Also, BlankBeat, while I do agree that Cloud(or rather the Zack in him) eventually developed romantic feelings for Aerith, I don't think he had quite developed feelings for her yet at this point, especially given that he tried to ditch her only a few hours earlier. I personally think the romantic feelings came about around the time she was kidnapped. Just saying.
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Sprites
Waiting for something
- AKA
- Gems
@BlankBeat: But....it was a new point, showing why Cloud didn't need to be as concerned with Tifa, as he did Aerith picking up on a part of the script that nobody had yet mentioned. How could you not be interested in debating that?
I first addressed the post saying no one had picked up on it and then I mentioned how you didn't acknowledge that part of the script so you could get an argument that suits you across, I expected you to answer back with something seeing as I said Cloud's reasoning for concern was logical rather than romantic in any sense towards Aerith.
Tifa's explanation to Cloud was a contributing factor to him not feeling she was in as much danger as he originally thought she was. Before that explanation he had no idea what she was doing there after the explanation he understands more what she's up to now and although he doesn't like the idea of her putting herself in danger like that, he understands now why she's doing it as opposed to Aerith who is up and throwing herself in there when she doesn't and didn't need to get involved in the first place.
Actually guys here's an interesting point about Cloud's attitude towards Aerith, I'm not sure if anyone has picked up on this either. Aerith asks Cloud to take her home when Reno appears on the scene in the church, here's his response.
Aerith
"Then, get me out of here. Take me home."
Cloud
"OK, I'll do it... but it'll cost you."
He'll get her out of there, but she has to give him payment of some sort...wow can you feel the love right there?
Granted he agrees to the whole date thing BUT the point still stands that he was in mercenary mode, he doesn't agree to take her home out of pure concern he still has a stipulation.
I first addressed the post saying no one had picked up on it and then I mentioned how you didn't acknowledge that part of the script so you could get an argument that suits you across, I expected you to answer back with something seeing as I said Cloud's reasoning for concern was logical rather than romantic in any sense towards Aerith.
Tifa's explanation to Cloud was a contributing factor to him not feeling she was in as much danger as he originally thought she was. Before that explanation he had no idea what she was doing there after the explanation he understands more what she's up to now and although he doesn't like the idea of her putting herself in danger like that, he understands now why she's doing it as opposed to Aerith who is up and throwing herself in there when she doesn't and didn't need to get involved in the first place.
Actually guys here's an interesting point about Cloud's attitude towards Aerith, I'm not sure if anyone has picked up on this either. Aerith asks Cloud to take her home when Reno appears on the scene in the church, here's his response.
Aerith
"Then, get me out of here. Take me home."
Cloud
"OK, I'll do it... but it'll cost you."
He'll get her out of there, but she has to give him payment of some sort...wow can you feel the love right there?
Granted he agrees to the whole date thing BUT the point still stands that he was in mercenary mode, he doesn't agree to take her home out of pure concern he still has a stipulation.
Obsidian Fire
Ahk Morn!
- AKA
- The Engineer
:direwolf:
Could someone please explain to me how the Cloud/Barret date is romantic? Thanks.
BlankBeat
Pro Adventurer
Because it's a date? Obviously you missed the big-picture point I was trying to make:
The fact that SE wanted to talk about as many romantic scenes as possible on the FTOIL page makes complete sense. By picturing the *canon* Cloud x Aerith date and then discussing that there are 4 possible dates allows SE to achieve two goals -- they are able to give preferential treatment to the *canon* date because it's pictured, but they are also able to discuss as many romantic scenes as possible on the FTOIL page.
However, there is only *ONE* version of the Highwind scene that is appropriate to talk about and include on the FTOIL page, and that version is the HA version. The reason why the LA version is nowhere to be seen or mentioned on the FTOIL page is because it is not appropriate for it to be included. Why would the LA version be included? It's not romantic. But even though the LA version was not appropriate to include on the FTOIL page, SE still includes a reference page that you can flip to that says there are *TWO* versions of the Highwind scene that depend on affection points.
But the bottom line is -- there are four dates which are all referenced and represented on the FTOIL page (as they should be). But because there is only one romantic version of the Highwind scene, only the HA Highwind scene was referenced on the FTOIIL page.
Just because the caption under Cloud and Aerith's date doesn't mention anything about them specifically doesn't mean their date isn't canon. And it also doesn't mean that the Cloud x Aerith date doesn't tell us the exact same thing that the HA Highwind scene does, which is that Cloud has feelings of love for Aerith.
BlankBeat
Pro Adventurer
...lol...you really believe that?
Yes, it *MAY* supersede responses already awaiting my attention.
LOL -- numerous posts of mine have been ignored. And although people come up with excuses for why my posts were ignored (I'm a liar, I'm a dishonest debater, etc.) -- the fact is, many of my posts have been ignored, too. Yet, you don't see me complaining about it or saying I deserve a "courtesy" response.
Huh?
I specifically told her I didn't respond because I was already debating with multiple people, but that I'd be happy to form a response to her post. So can we be done with this discussion now?
Obsidian Fire
Ahk Morn!
- AKA
- The Engineer
- Status