Hawkeye said:
If Cloud had to be convinced to rescue Tifa based on only "The Don's not into men," "But, I just can't let you go in alone..." and "Oh, man......" -- then what the hell is this where we have a drawn out scene where Tifa and Barret have to convince Cloud to go after Aerith? He really would have left her had those two not convinced him to go.
Does this mean he didn't care for her? No. He was concerned about hurting her or someone else if he did go.
But, again, if that short little exchange with Aerith had to convince him to help Tifa (it didn't) when he was actually so concerned about her that he didn't even want to kick the door in because it could lead to a commotion that may get her hurt, then what would that make of this ordeal in getting Cloud to go help Aerith?
Oh, and would you look at that? The characters who couldn't think for themselves earlier and only helped rescue Aerith because Cloud wanted to are now the driving force in rescuing her this time.
WEIRD.
Cloud says:
"No. I might lose it again. If Sephiroth comes near me I might……"
The reason Cloud did not want to go to the City of the Ancients is because he had just been possessed by Sephiroth and given him the black materia. Cloud thought he could potentially hurt Aerith while Sephiroth was in his presence.
And guess what? CLOUD'S FEAR CAME TRUE. Sephiroth possessed Cloud again and he almost killed Aerith.
If anything, Cloud knew what everyone else didn't -- his presence put Aerith's safety at greater risk. This entire conversation actually shows Cloud predicted the future correctly and was right to worry that his presence might put Aerith in more danger. Just think if Cloud *HAD* killed Aerith. He'd probably be pretty pissed at Tifa for convincing him to go when he expressed reservations that turned out to be true.
But thanks for giving me yet another example of Cloud worrying about Aerith's safety
Great job discovering something I *just told you*, Columbo: "Does this mean he didn't care for her? No. He was concerned about hurting her or someone else if he did go."
Now answer the question. We're going to do this as many times as it takes until you learn how a conversation works:
----
If Cloud had to be convinced to rescue Tifa based on only "The Don's not into men," "But, I just can't let you go in alone..." and "Oh, man......" -- then what the hell is this where we have a drawn out scene where Tifa and Barret have to convince Cloud to go after Aerith? He really would have left her had those two not convinced him to go.
Does this mean he didn't care for her? No. He was concerned about hurting her or someone else if he did go.
But, again, if that short little exchange with Aerith had to convince him to help Tifa (it didn't) when he was actually so concerned about her that he didn't even want to kick the door in because it could lead to a commotion that may get her hurt, then what would that make of this ordeal in getting Cloud to go help Aerith?
Oh, and would you look at that? The characters who couldn't think for themselves earlier and only helped rescue Aerith because Cloud wanted to are now the driving force in rescuing her this time.
WEIRD.
----
BlankBeat said:
Hawkeye said:
You didn't answer either question. Let's do this again:
----
Cloud doesn't continue protesting Aerith's involvement in dangerous affairs after this. Does this mean he has stopped caring about her afterward? Or does it mean he now cares about she and Tifa equally at this point?
----
I already answered your question: Cloud doesn't continue to worry about Aerith's involvement in dangerous situations because he's there to protect her. When Aerith is without Cloud, like she would have been in Don's mansion, that's when Cloud becomes uncomfortable with the idea of her being in a dangerous situation.
Then how does that indicate that he cares more about Aerith than he does Tifa? If he has less reason to be concerned about Tifa at Corneo's since he knows she can fight until he gets there to help her, and if he has less reason to be concerned about Aerith's safety when he knows he's there to protect her -- then where is the example in which both women are equally in need of help and Cloud favors protecting Aerith over Tifa?
All you've managed to argue for here is that he wants to know both of them are safe, either by virtue of their own fighting ability or his ability to protect them.
If the scene in the Don's mansion were to prove he simply cares about Aerith more, then he shouldn't want her getting in danger at all in subsequent scenarios, regardless of whether he's there. Him being there to keep her safe just makes the situation roughly equivalent to Tifa's situation at the Don's -- one where she's in a dangerous position but has a means of protection.
So that just brings us back to the questions I asked you before:
----
Cloud doesn't continue protesting Aerith's involvement in dangerous affairs after this. Does this mean he has stopped caring about her afterward? Or does it mean he now cares about she and Tifa equally at this point?
----
Now please answer them.
By the way, are you really suggesting that Cloud is more concerned about Aerith being alone with Corneo for a few minutes than he is with including her in infiltrating Junon and the cargo ship, despite all the armed guards she needed to slip past and the high voltage water she needed to safely get over -- something he left her to do alone while he fucked off to march in a parade and watch the Turks drink?
You're suggesting he was more concerned about her being alone with Corneo for a few minutes than he is with letting her fight the Turks? More concerned about leaving her with Corneo for a few minutes than taking her inside the Shinra Mansion when a Sephiroth copy says that Seph is inside?
Yeah, no.
BlankBeat said:
Hawkeye said:
Do you actually mean "concern" or "care"? Because if you want to go with "concern," I might agree. It makes sense for him to be more concerned about Aerith for the reasons Sprite pointed out. That isn't the same as caring about her more or favoring her, which is what you keep claiming.
All other things being equal, Cloud's behavior wouldn't indicate more care or favor for Aerith here.
Picture a "Die Hard" scenario with two police officers are sneaking through a building that has been taken over by machine gun-toting bad guys. They're in different parts of the building and they've never met each other before this.
One of them comes across a civilian screaming for help in an office. He dispatches her attackers, and -- being unable to leave her there -- brings her along with him to keep her safe.
Along the way, they run into the other officer. The other officer says that she has a plan to take down the leader of the group. The civilian asks how she can help. The officer who rescued her says that he can't let her get involved.
The civilian responds, "So, it's okay for the other girl to be in danger?"
What just happened here? Does the officer care more about the civilian or is his decision here not based on that at all, but rather on knowing that the other officer has the same training and ability to look out for herself that he does -- while the civilian has no such training and was literally begging for help shortly before this?
Now, if "Clearly he cares more about the civilian" sounds fucking insane, how much more so does it become when the other officer isn't a stranger at all? Instead, the other officer is the dude's one and only friend? A comrade in arms he has faced danger with before? Someone he owes his life to and made a promise long ago to protect?
How fucking batshit does it sound to then say "Clearly he cares more about the civilian"?
But…why would the civilian ask if it's OK for the other girl to be in danger, knowing that the other girl was an officer? No civilian I know would ask that.
Well, obviously that was the important part of that whole thing I wrote. It couldn't have been the scenario itself, which you glided over with all the grace of a sack of mortar mix.
Make her question something like, "We're all equally in danger, aren't we?" or have her say, "My life is in danger here too and I have a right to defend myself" -- I don't care. That isn't what you need to be focusing on.
This is:
----
What just happened here? Does the officer care more about the civilian or is his decision here not based on that at all, but rather on knowing that the other officer has the same training and ability to look out for herself that he does -- while the civilian has no such training and was literally begging for help shortly before this?
Now, if "Clearly he cares more about the civilian" sounds fucking insane, how much more so does it become when the other officer isn't a stranger at all? Instead, the other officer is the dude's one and only friend? A comrade in arms he has faced danger with before? Someone he owes his life to and made a promise long ago to protect?
How fucking batshit does it sound to then say "Clearly he cares more about the civilian"?
----
BlankBeat said:
Having both Aerith and Coud rescue Tifa was an obvious way to set the stage for the love triangle. In fact, Aerith and Tifa's conversation when they first meet tells us this was SE's way to set up the love triangle (something your scenario obviously lacks).
How does this exclude the set up for the love triangle? Tifa is still seeing how Cloud and Aerith interact with one another. She still sees how quickly they have established a rapport. She still sees that Aerith is into Cloud.
Are you forgetting that Tifa gets jealous well before the conversation about posing as the Don's companions comes up?:
----
Aeris
Now's our chance. Let's find Tifa.
Aeris
...Tifa?
Nice to meet you. I'm Aeris.
Cloud's told me a lot about you.
Tifa
...And you are?
Hey you're the one with Cloud in the park...
Aeris
Right, with Cloud.
Tifa
Oh......
Aeris
Don't worry. We just met. It's nothing.
Tifa
What do you mean, 'Don't worry'... about what?
No, don't misunderstand.
Cloud and I grew up together. Nothing more.
Aeris
Poor Cloud, having to stand here and listen to both of us call him nothing.
Right, Cloud?
Tifa
Cloud?
Tifa
????
Cloud!?
Why are you dressed like that!? And what are you doing here!?
Forget that, what happened to you after the fall!? Are you hurt!?
Cloud
Hey, give me a chance to answer.
I'm dressed like this...... because there was no other way to get in here.
I'm all right. Aeris helped me out.
Tifa
Oh, Aeris did...
Cloud
Tifa, explain. What are you doing in a place like this?
Tifa
Yeah, ummm......
Aeris
Ahem!! I'll just plug my ears.
She walks a ways away and puts her hands to her ears.
Please, go on with your private conversation.
Tifa
...I'm glad you're OK.
Cloud
Thanks. What happened?
Tifa
When we got back from the Number 5 reactor, there was this weird man.
So Barret caught him and squeezed some information out of him.
Cloud
That's when the Don's name popped up.
Tifa
Right, Don Corneo.
Barret told me to leave the lech alone...
But something's been bothering me.
Cloud
I see. So you wanted to get the story straight from Corneo's mouth.
Tifa
So I made it here, but now I'm in a bind.
Corneo is looking for a bride.
Everyday, he gets three girls, chooses one of them, and then... ...and, well......
Anyway, I have to be the girl... or I'm out for tonight.
Aeris
Sorry... but I overheard...
If you know the three girls, there's no problem, right?
Tifa
I guess so, but...
Aeris
We have two here, right?
Cloud
No, Aeris! I can't have you get involved.
Aeris
Oh? So it's all right for Tifa to be in danger?
Cloud
No, I don't want Tifa in...
Tifa
Is it all right?
Aeris
I grew up in the slums... I'm used to danger.
Do you trust me?
Tifa
Yes. Thanks, Ms. Aeris.
Aeris
Call me Aeris.
----
The difference between the scenario I'm suggesting and the one you're arguing must be the case is -- as with so many of the ones you argue for -- mine includes the love triangle elements as an additional factor while yours makes them the focus. What do you think was the creative intent here? A multi-faceted story about identity and life that *included* a love triangle or the story of a love triangle with random other crap thrown in just to keep things moving?
BlankBeat said:
Also -- if people think Cloud believes Tifa could take care of herself, why would it be unreasonable to think Cloud may have decided it wasn't worth it to break into Don's mansion after they turned him away for being a guy?
Because Tifa is his friend and he cares.
BlankBeat said:
The fact is, Cloud's intent from the beginning was never to rescue Tifa. It was simply to find Seventh Heaven, and then it progressed to find out why Tifa was in a cart.
Who do you think he was planning to speak to when he got there? 'Cause he was just that invested in seeing Barret again?
BlankBeat said:
There is no evidence Cloud was out to rescue Tifa.
"First... we need to find out if Tifa's alright..."
That's proof.
BlankBeat said:
Hawkeye said:
LOL
Let me make sure I follow you. During Cloud's story at Kalm, he said the following about Sephiroth: "In terms of skill, I couldn't have killed him."
So, he's more confident that he can protect Aerith from someone whom he doesn't think he could have beaten years earlier -- *after* that someone has gotten a power upgrade to boot -- than he is that he could protect her from a few non-enhanced dudes that he expressed no concern for himself about when he spoke of breaking into their place?
Cloud knew he had no shot in hell at convincing Aerith to change her mind. Elmyra says that once Aerith makes up her mind, there's no point in convincing her otherwise.
Which is not what I asked you at all:
----
So, he's more confident that he can protect Aerith from someone whom he doesn't think he could have beaten years earlier -- *after* that someone has gotten a power upgrade to boot -- than he is that he could protect her from a few non-enhanced dudes that he expressed no concern for himself about when he spoke of breaking into their place?
----
But, yeah, clearly back at the Don's she would have overpowered him. It's not like he could have grabbed her and dragged her off if her safety was the absolute no. 1 overriding concern, fuck everyone else.
BlankBeat said:
Hawkeye said:
----
Why did Cloud take Aerith into the Temple of the Ancients knowing Sephiroth -- who had already taken his mother from him and nearly Tifa as well -- would be inside? Was he not wavering in her direction that day?
If he took her in because it involved her, was important to her and he knew she could fight at this point, why is Cloud focusing on the civilian's safety back at the Don's a slighting of Tifa when that situation involved her, was important to her and he knew she could fight before that point?
----
Aerith wanted to go to the Temple of the Ancients. Cloud knew there was no point in trying to convince her not to go. So, the best he could do was make sure he was there to protect her the best he could. But once he realized Sephiroth could control him, he decided it might be best for Aerith's safety if he removed himself from the situation.
On the contrary, in the situations regarding Don's mansion, both before they entered and once they entered, he didn't want Aerith in any dangerous situations where he wouldn't be there to protect her.
And again you don't answer my question:
----
If he took her in because it involved her, was important to her and he knew she could fight at this point, why is Cloud focusing on the civilian's safety back at the Don's a slighting of Tifa when that situation involved her, was important to her and he knew she could fight before that point?
----
BlankBeat said:
Hawkeye said:
I thought you said the LTD was about the question "Who does Cloud love?" If the answer to that question is "Both Aerith and Tifa" -- which, again, you say it is -- why do you keep coming back to bullshit like this Wall Market situation and trying to determine "who he likes more"?
Because I think it's an interesting question. Obviously Cloud could like Aerith and Tifa equally, or for different reasons. But I think it's human nature to have a preference.
Fair enough.
While on that topic, I'm inclined to agree in large part, though I don't think it's necessarily human nature to have a preference in every category. Obviously there are some things about Aerith he likes better than in comparison to Tifa, and no doubt vice versa. Otherwise he wouldn't have been wavering between them to begin with.
BlankBeat said:
Hawkeye said:
His intent, from the moment he found out where she was going, was to make sure she was okay. He even says "First... we need to find out if Tifa's alright..." after your magical "Oh, man......" that you claim meant he was ready to leave her behind. He speaks of saving her when he gets those bikini briefs, which -- optional event or not -- tells us of his intent and where his mind is at the time
Cloud's intent to save Tifa was only after he didn't want Aerith to go alone. His intent before that was to find Seventh Heaven.
Because he loves it there so much? That's why he goes in completely the wrong direction, I guess.
BlankBeat said:
Hawkeye said:
Cloud
Well being a man, that'll be pretty hard. Besides if I bust in there, it'll cause too much commotion.
But, I just can't let you go in alone... Oh, man......
First... we need to find out if Tifa's alright...
What's so funny, Aeris?
Aeris
Cloud, why don't you dress up like a girl? It's the only way.
----
Now isn't that a peculiar series of lines? He says, "Oh, man......" but then says "First... we need to find out if Tifa's alright..." -- and what do you know? It's before Aerith presents an alternative to letting her go in alone or busting down the door!
If Cloud was always planning on going in regardless of being turned away, why does he have to convince himself that he can't let Aerith go in alone? The phrasing of Cloud's line just doesn't make sense if he was always going to go in.
He was always trying to check on Tifa. He's not convincing himself of anything, he's mulling over his dilemmas while trying to figure out a way to check on Tifa. He says himself: "First... we need to find out if Tifa's alright..."
BlankBeat said:
Hawkeye said:
Why, it's almost as though Cloud never abandoned the goal of checking on Tifa! Goodness gracious, could that be it?! Could it possibly be that he never intended to ditch the only person in the fucking world he called friend to be raped?!
But once Cloud got inside, he didn't express worry for Tifa until after Aerith pointed out his double standard. This suggests Cloud wasn't worried about Tifa being in there to begin with.
[/quote]
"First... we need to find out if Tifa's alright..."
"Tifa, explain. What are you doing in a place like this?"
----
Aeris
Oh? So it's all right for Tifa to be in danger?
Cloud
No, I don't want Tifa in...
----
You're lying again.
BlankBeat said:
Plus, according to you guys, Cloud thinks Tifa can take care of herself, but he doesn't think Aerith can do the same.
So if Cloud thinks Tifa can take care of herself, but he doesn't think Aerith can do the same, if Cloud had been without Aerith, he may very well have turned around when they said Don isn't interested in men. But since he was with Aerith (a girl he didn't think could fight very well) he decided to go in.
He didn't know what Tifa's exact situation was yet. It's not enough to know that she's generally capable of taking care of herself.
Using the police officer analogy again, just because you know your partner has a gun and training, that doesn't mean you aren't going to check on them if they went in the crack house and didn't come back out.
BlankBeat said:
As for the topic of Sprites:
Hawkeye said:
I have to confess that I literally laughed out loud when I read this.
So what she said is not even feasible, huh? The *only* thing that would make sense in that scenario is that Cloud can't stop thinking about sticking his dick in Aerith? It *has to be* that he just likes this chick he's known for a few hours better than his childhood friend -- the only person in the world he currently considers a friend?
I said that the reason I didn't want to respond to her post was because it would have led to an exchange between us, and I was already bogged down with debating numerous people. You said that didn't make sense because it wouldn't have necessarily led to an exchange between us. Then I told you it would have led to an exchange between us because I don't agree with everything she said.
Which brought me to this question:
----
So what she said is not even feasible, huh? The *only* thing that would make sense in that scenario is that Cloud can't stop thinking about sticking his dick in Aerith? It *has to be* that he just likes this chick he's known for a few hours better than his childhood friend -- the only person in the world he currently considers a friend?
----
BlankBeat said:
Hawkeye said:
Honestly, dude, I haven't noticed any of your posts get ignored. If anything, each one gets too many responses leading to your issue of having a back-and-forth with too many people at once.
Hell, I couldn't even post fast enough to prevent GLD from responding to your attempt at rehashing the "For the One I Love" page. How in hell are you feeling ignored in this thread?
I'm not feeling ignored. I'm saying some of my posts have been ignored, yet you think I should have given Sprites a "courtesy response". That's a double standard. And what the hell is a "courtesy response"? I've never heard of that before, nor have I ever received one when my posts have been ignored. But thanks for the étiquette lesson.
Where are you seeing a double standard? I told you I don't know what the hell you're talking about. You've been getting a ton of responses. When has a single post of yours gone by without response?
BlankBeat said:
Hawkeye said:
You guys thank each others posts all the time. At this point, I don't even look at the amount of "thanks" a post gets because of how overused it is on this site.
You guys thank each others posts all the time. At this point, I don't even look at the amount of "thanks" a post gets because of how overused it is on this site.
It was still a new observation addressed to you and more thorough than any that anyone had yet brought up, explaining everything about the scene and acknowledging the entirety of the conversation. It merited your response.
This is pretty inconsistent logic from a lot of you guys:
People keep saying the reason Cloud initially expressed more concern for Aerith's involvement in the plan to fool Don Cornero was because Cloud viewed Aerith as a weaker fighter than Tifa. So the natural conclusion is that Cloud is going to show more concern over Aerith's involvement than Tifa's.
But if this logic can be applied once Cloud and Aerith are inside, can't this logic be applied to when Cloud and Aerith are outside, too?
Was that not the case when he said he didn't want her going in alone?
BlankBeat said:
Why is it so hard to believe that if Cloud had been alone, he would have walked away when they told him Don wasn't interested in men?
Because Tifa is his friend? Why is *that* so hard to believe?
BlankBeat said:
After-all, Cloud thinks Tifa can take care of herself. She's apart of AVALANCHE and Cloud has bombed reactors with her. So doesn't it make sense that Cloud went in initially because he didn't want Aerith, a weak fighter, to go alone?
He was only there in the first place to find out why Tifa was there. How do you keep forgetting this?
The only way to answer this would be to have had Cloud actually be himself while around both of them and see what he does then -- and that is not something that can ever happen. This was a deliberate part of the design process. You're overlooking the hypothetical phrasing Nojima spoke in. That's all there can ever be here: hypothetical musings. No clear answers. Not for Cloud. Not for Nojima. Not for you. Not for anybody. That was the point. That's the kind of unanswered questions and eternal mysteries something like the sudden death of a loved one leaves you with.
You're trying to solve a mystery that has no answer.
I'll get to the rest of your replies tomorrow.
Meh. There's always room for hypothesizes.
Fact is, when Aerith and Tifa were on equal footing, Cloud preferred Aerith. 'nuff said.
That isn't phrased like a hypothesis.
But here's one for you: Fact is, when Aerith and Tifa were on "equal footing," Cloud wasn't really Cloud. He was a mixed up souffle consisting of his own ideal vision of himself mixed with Zack's personality mixed with his real personality -- and a dash of Sephiroth's influencing thrown in for flavor. Enough said.