The Love Triangle Debate thread of KNEEL BEFORE ZOD OR SUFFER HIS WRATH (ignore the opening posts at your peril) (Round 6)

[Sprites]

Huh?

The plan was to go find Aerith. Cloud's worried about what he would do when they found Aerith.

I've already stated that everyone was already out looking for Aerith, the plan was already in place.

yes he knows that if he's near Aerith when Sephiroth is there is a chance that he'll hurt her but he's mostly afraid of himself and what happens to him when Sephiroth comes near him it's in the bloody script..SEVERAL TIMES!

Cloud
"I might lose it again."
"If Sephiroth comes near me
I might..."

Cloud
"I'm afraid."
"If this keeps up, I may go crazy!"
"I'm afraid..."

Cloud
"......I'm afraid to find out the truth...? But...... why?"

Sprites wrote:
Also why do you think he hands the Black Materia later to another party member, he knows full well there’s a chance that he could give it to Sephiroth, he’s already done it once and he could do it again but it doesn't mean he knows he's going to do it, he's doing it to be on the safe side.

OK. What's your point?

My point is he hands it to another party member because he's afraid that if he has it and if Sephiroth is near him, he might give it back to him, it's another example of how he fears over the amount of control Sephiroth has over him.

But I can't help but think that this would cross Cloud's mind if he had killed Aerith, "I should have listened to myself and not Tifa".

NO HE WOULDN'T OMG GET THAT INTO YOUR HEAD. Cloud isn't the kind of person to blame others, he blames himself for everything! You're also acting like Tifa is the only person who convinced Cloud to go to after Aerith when it was Barret who made that huge speech to Cloud about them being there for him and snapping him out of it if things went wrong, Tifa did NOT make that decision for Cloud.

Sure, the other members could have decided to go without Cloud. What's your point?

Because you're treating it like Cloud was the only one who made the decision to go after her in the end, when he didn't, it took convincing for him to continue his journey to confront Sephiroth. They know this isn't just about going after Aerith, they know that Cloud needs to confront this thing with Sephiroth too and they already were out looking for Aerith, they'd already decided to look for her before Cloud woke up but now that they know Sephiroth is involved and they know what kind of person he is, it only hastens their need as a whole to find her.

Actually, we can't say for sure if that's the moment he knew Tifa needed rescuing. Cloud simply expressed a desire to see what she was doing in the cart.

He still wanted to see what she was doing, he still expressed concern for her heading off in the direction of Wall Market, he still wants to know why she's there in the first place.

OK. Cloud says Tifa's bar, not Seventh Heaven. That still doesn't suggest his original plan was to rescue her.

BECAUSE AS FAR AS HE WAS AWARE SHE DIDN'T NEED RESCUING AT THAT POINT NOR HAD HE SEEN HER GOING TO WALL MARKET, HE THOUGHT SHE WAS BACK AT SEVENTH HEAVEN.

He was going back to the bar because it's Avalanche's headquarters and he knows it where Tifa would be, couldn't possibly want to let her know either that he's OK considering last time they spoke, he was falling off the edge of a building and she thought he was falling to his death.

When he hears of Tifa's plan inside, his first reaction is to worry about Aerith. So...yes, Cloud might have trusted that Tifa knew what she was doing.

I've already fucking explained why he shows concern for Aerith at that point, I never said he didn't worry about her getting involved but it's not his first reaction he doesn't immediately tell Aerith she can't get involved, he only jumps in after Aerith interrupts and even then he doesn't do it again after she talks to him about his "double standards".

Yes. I've thanked posts before. But I've never used the amount of thanks a posts get as an argument like Hawk has.

So...what's your point?

Tres is an excellent poster on these forums in the serious and non-serious threads and an excellent article writer for TLS in general, every single thanks he gets is because he genuinely deserves it, it's not people ganging up and taking his side to spite someone's argument, it's because they feel he genuinely deserves some sort of acknowledgement for what he's written.

Edit @Hito : You wonderful man you!

 

[Strangelove]

Cloud still went after Aerith, despite his reservations and swayed by the words of some mindless flunkies who only follow Cloud around because he's the main character, and when he got there he nearly lodged his sword in her brain after telling the others to stand back while he jumped up to the alter alone rather than letting someone who wasn't a total puppet go up instead, even though he knew Sephiroth could control him at any moment

I guess he wasn't that concerned about her after all.

 

[BlankBeat]

I'm going to talk about the Japanese script now for no other reason than I can ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) also it has a slight difference

クラウド
「俺は男だからな。むりやりはいったら 騒ぎになってしまう」
"I'm a man so [I can't come in as well]. If I forced my way in it would cause a commotion."

Aerith is able to just walk in the door. Cloud can't do this, and storming in would cause problems. This doesn't say anything about him not going in or thinking of another way.

Cloud thinking about being a man and causing a commotion is prompted by Aerith saying, "Do you want to go with me?" -- that's the part a lot of you keep forgetting.

Plus, after Aerith asks him to go with her (which implies Cloud might not have gone in if Aerith hadn't been there to invite him) Cloud doesn't say, "Of course I'm going with you!" -- he simply tells Aerith what kind of place Don's mansion is.

「かといってエアリスに いかせるわけには…… いや、しかし……」
"But [I can't] make/let Aerith go... no, however..."

'Oh man' is 'no, however/but...' in the Japanese script (he cuts the previous line short, skipping the いかない from the end). He cuts off his previous thought and starts to think of something else, possibly involving Aerith going in alone (since that's what he was just talking about). Maybe she goes in and lets Cloud in somehow. Who knows with scenarios that never happened. (Though that is still a thousand times more pleasant an idea than 'leave Tifa in peril because baaaw I'm a man').

If Cloud was always going to go in, why does he say, "BUT I can't let Aerith go alone". Why would Aerith going alone even be relevant if he was always going to go? Not only does the phrasing of Cloud's line make no sense, but if he was always gong to go in, he wouldn't have even needed to say it.

If Cloud was always planning on going in, this seems like a much more logical conversation:
Aerith: "I'll go in alone"
Cloud: "No, I'm here to rescue Tifa, we're going together."

Instead, when Aerith says she wants to go alone, Cloud's initial reaction isn't to suggest going together -- it's to remind Aerith what kind of place Don's mansion is. Only after Aerith asks Cloud to go with her does it prompt Cloud to think of roadblocks that would prevent him from entering. However, Cloud decides that even though he has to overcome a few roadblocks, he can't let Aerith go in alone. Aerith going alone is his primary reason for entering. That's why he says, "BUT I can't let her go alone".

The word "BUT" implies that although he might have decided not to go in if Aerith hadn't been there, because she was there, her safety overrides any reservations he might have had that would have prevented him from entering.

「まず、ティファの安全が 確認できな……」
"First, we [have to] make sure Tifa is safe...'

Cut off again (...ないと・なくてはならない・etc.) but obviously for a different reason. But he's already thinking of a plan. And the first part of this plan is confirming that Tifa is safe. Not 'how do I keep Aerith safe'.

Right. This is after Cloud had already determined that he couldn't let Aerith go alone.

I'm not saying Cloud didn't care for Tifa's safety. What I'm saying is that Aerith's safety seemed to be Cloud's primary concern and motivating factor.

--------------------

yes he knows that if he's near Aerith when Sephiroth is there is a chance that he'll hurt her but he's mostly afraid of himself and what happens to him when Sephiroth comes near him it's in the bloody script..SEVERAL TIMES!

So Cloud's afraid of both what might happen to him and what might happen to others. I never disputed that. So why is this relevant again?

My point is he hands it to another party member because he's afraid that if he has it and if Sephiroth is near him, he might give it back to him, it's another example of how he fears over the amount of control Sephiroth has over him.

OK. I never disagreed with that. So why is this relevant again?

NO HE WOULDN'T OMG GET THAT INTO YOUR HEAD. Cloud isn't the kind of person to blame others, he blames himself for everything! You're also acting like Tifa is the only person who convinced Cloud to go to after Aerith when it was Barret who made that huge speech to Cloud about them being there for him and snapping him out of it if things went wrong, Tifa did NOT make that decision for Cloud.

Right. Cloud blames himself for everything. That's why he didn't want to put himself in a situation where he might hurt someone because of Sephiroth.

And I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. I'd not only be upset with myself for doing something I had foreseen, but I'd be upset (to a lesser degree, obviously) with the people that convinced me to do it despite my apprehension and reservations.

Because you're treating it like Cloud was the only one who made the decision to go after her in the end, when he didn't, it took convincing for him to continue his journey to confront Sephiroth. They know this isn't just about going after Aerith, they know that Cloud needs to confront this thing with Sephiroth too and they already were out looking for Aerith, they'd already decided to look for her before Cloud woke up but now that they know Sephiroth is involved and they know what kind of person he is, it only hastens their need as a whole to find her.

I never said it was Cloud who made the decision to go after her in the end. What are you talking about?

He still wanted to see what she was doing, he still expressed concern for her heading off in the direction of Wall Market, he still wants to know why she's there in the first place.

BECAUSE AS FAR AS HE WAS AWARE SHE DIDN'T NEED RESCUING AT THAT POINT NOR HAD HE SEEN HER GOING TO WALL MARKET, HE THOUGHT SHE WAS BACK AT SEVENTH HEAVEN.

People were acting as though this was Cloud's plan all along. It wasn't. That's all I was pointing out.

He was going back to the bar because it's Avalanche's headquarters and he knows it where Tifa would be, couldn't possibly want to let her know either that he's OK considering last time they spoke, he was falling off the edge of a building and she thought he was falling to his death.

I know why he wanted to go back to the bar.

I've already fucking explained why he shows concern for Aerith at that point, I never said he didn't worry about her getting involved but it's not his first reaction he doesn't immediately tell Aerith she can't get involved, he only jumps in after Aerith interrupts and even then he doesn't do it again after she talks to him about his "double standards".

Right. Cloud's first reaction, after hearing Tifa share her plan and Aerith's desire to partake, is to only express concern for Aerith's safety.

Rationalize and justify it all you want -- but that's a fact.

Tres is an excellent poster on these forums in the serious and non-serious threads and an excellent article writer for TLS in general, every single thanks he gets is because he genuinely deserves it, it's not people ganging up and taking his side to spite someone's argument, it's because they feel he genuinely deserves some sort of acknowledgement for what he's written.

Edit @Hito : You wonderful man you!

I never said Tres doesn't deserve the thanks he gets.

Tres was trying to say that the amount of thanks your post got should have signaled to me that I should have prioritized it and responded to it. I simply told him that I don't even pay attention to the amount of thanks a post gets because I feel as though people on this forum abuse that feature.

So how is what you just said relevant to what Tres and I were discussing?

 

[Sprites]

I realised I read that last part wrong, so I apologise for that, and he never said that the amount of thanks my post got signalled to you to respond he said that it meant people thanked my new point but because I was addressing YOU originally he assumed you would want to respond as it was a new point and a not "back and forth" argument as you call it.

Sprites wrote:
He still wanted to see what she was doing, he still expressed concern for her heading off in the direction of Wall Market, he still wants to know why she's there in the first place.

BECAUSE AS FAR AS HE WAS AWARE SHE DIDN'T NEED RESCUING AT THAT POINT NOR HAD HE SEEN HER GOING TO WALL MARKET, HE THOUGHT SHE WAS BACK AT SEVENTH HEAVEN.

People were acting as though this was Cloud's plan all along. It wasn't. That's all I was pointing out.

You're misquoting me now, I answered TWO separate questions there.

The first answer to why he went off to find out what Tifa was doing and the second was why there was no intention for him to rescue here. THERE WAS NO PLAN when he originally wanted to get back to Seventh Heaven, but you have it in your head there's something about him needing to rescue Tifa from the moment he asks Aerith if her bar is near sector 5.

Sprites wrote:
yes he knows that if he's near Aerith when Sephiroth is there is a chance that he'll hurt her but he's mostly afraid of himself and what happens to him when Sephiroth comes near him it's in the bloody script..SEVERAL TIMES!
So Cloud's afraid of both what might happen to him and what might happen to others. I never disputed that. So why is this relevant again?

Sprites wrote:
My point is he hands it to another party member because he's afraid that if he has it and if Sephiroth is near him, he might give it back to him, it's another example of how he fears over the amount of control Sephiroth has over him.

OK. I never disagreed with that. So why is this relevant again?

Again you've been saying in the past that Cloud didn't want to go to City of Ancients because he was afraid of hurting Aerith and for only that reason, I provided you with two examples of how this is more about Cloud's fear of what Sephiroth will cause him to do if he takes control of him. The first post is relevant because it shows that this isn't just about Aerith, it's about Cloud. The second was to use as another example of how Cloud feels about himself and Sephiroth having control over him.

Right. Cloud's first reaction, after hearing Tifa share her plan and Aerith's desire to partake, is to only express concern for Aerith's safety.

Rationalize and justify it all you want -- but that's a fact.

I never said it wasn't true, I never once said he wasn't concerned, my counter-arguement was that Cloud's concern was purely logical rather than romantic in any sense. That's what I want you to counter, why do you feel his concern for Aerith is romantic rather than a logical reason.

I also wanted you to counter the fact that several people here are arguing that Cloud does have more concern for Tifa and you seem to think he doesn't at this point. It doesn't even have to be in the romantic sense, at the end of the day his childhood friend is heading to a brothel and he's worried as to why, why at least can't you acknowledge that or acknowledge that because of that he's more concerned for her than Aerith at this point, everything he's doing to get in there is for Tifa, not Aerith, I've acknowledged on several occasions why I can see Cloud is concerned for Aerith at this point but I've just acknowledged it to be logic rather than romantic whereas his concern for Tifa is more than that because his childhood friend is doing something that until she explains, he has no idea why and is more than a little worried about it.

And I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. I'd not only be upset with myself for doing something I had foreseen, but I'd be upset (to a lesser degree, obviously) with the people that convinced me to do it despite my apprehension and reservations.

CLOUD IS NOT A SEER, HE DID NOT FORSEE HIMSELF KILLING AERITH NOR DID HE FORSEE HER DEATH OR HIS ACTIONS LEADING UP TO HER DEATH

He had a dream that told him Sephiroth was going to go after Aerith and it was more than likely going to have something to do with Sephiroth hurting her, but he DID NOT forsee what was going to happen, I really wish you would stop saying that about Cloud.

He was not convinced as you say to go after Aerith nor was he forced to go, instead he was being asked to confront himself and find out what was really going on with himself and was he strong enough to deal with it but the decision was ultimately up to him if I have to re-quote that part of the script where Barret actually asks him that then I will.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

Right. Cloud's taking Aerith *WITH* him to confront Dyne. Cloud's not sending Aerith alone, like what would have happened if he had let her go in Don's mansion alone.

You are aware that Cloud can bring Tifa, Yuffiie, or Red XIII can go with him instead of Aerith, right? Also there isn't an option of Cloud not going with Barret to confront Dyne. He decides to go, and picks who else can go with him. Actually, if he really wanted to protect his love interests, he should take Red XIII with him as that way, none of the girls run the risk of getting hurt.

Meh. There's always room for hypothesizes.

I notice you tend to view most of your hypothesizes as something that would have happened for sure, but you tend to view most of our hypothesizes as something that are conjecture, and therefore something that cannot be used in this "debate".

Just to reiterate again, on Disk 1, the player has a significant amount of control over who Cloud favors. This can range from romantically favoring Aerith to being good friends with Barret at the expense of romance with all the girls. But once, Disk 1 is over, the player has no control over who Cloud likes and shows affection towards.

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

BB, post something worth thanking and you'll get thanks. Otherwise, maybe just stop giving a shit about the thanks system entirely? It works for Ryu.

I'm not at present gonna bother replying to the rest of what you've said, as it is once more largely repetition of things you've already said (at most exaggerated to even more offensive levels) featuring you ignoring everyone else's points, twisting the narrative and quotes until they're ready to snap from the pressure, and overall failing to support your ship in every way. I genuinely wonder, IF you're not a troll, then why do you do this to yourself? You have to know (HAVE to, cause I've spelled it out word for word) what response you'll get when you do these things, plus an extra helping of aggression will come your way for the ever more obvious Tifa-bashing bullshit you bring to the table. So really, why?

 

[Master Bates]

LOL @ equal footing.

Aerith and Tifa were NEVER in equal footing. Even the game mechanics showed this in numbers when it gave Aerith an initial 50 affection points, 20 points above Tifa's. Disregarding game mechanics and just looking at the narrative, Tifa was at a disadvantage on the first disc because of complications beyond her control, one of which was Cloud's loss of his tender memories of her. Another is Cloud's confused state of being. He may still recognize her as his childhood friend, but that is not the same with him having complete recall of his memories because it can limit his views of her to such, therefore prejudicing Tifa. Then Aerith, who is more assertive, straightforward, and less shy than Tifa, comes in the picture, and she created a unique relationship with Cloud at such a short time. This will either work well for or work against Aerith because she didn't have a relation with Cloud before their encounter, thus, she is not in a limited position compared to Tifa, couple that with the fact that Tifa herself is having trouble with her confidence of both her memories with Cloud and of herself, then it's very much in Aerith's favor. That doesn't mean Cloud prefers Aerith over Tifa at all. It simply means Aerith is the one having the advantage of the situation. Hardly equal footing.

Likewise, when the Real!Cloud emerged, the situation reversed. It was then Tifa having the advantage over Aerith and such advantage was beyond the latter's control because: (1) Cloud and Tifa's past has been established and can never be altered; (2) She's dead. Does this mean Cloud prefers Tifa over her? Not at all. Again, there is no equal footing.

Thing is, at different points in time, they both had something unique and special with Cloud that the other don't have, even during Cloud's messed up state. I guess what I'm saying is that different situations bring different opportunities, and while a certain circumstance can dictate the turn of events, it is not the sole dictator.

Besides, I don't get this thing about 'equal footing'. It's not like Cloud's affection is some kind of prize for some kind of twisted contest.

The truest thing anyone has ever said in this thread

I only speak the truth, Que.

Hey, I'm in here to blow off steam and have a good time. I know full and damn well I'm dealing with a troll. In many ways, I am counting on it. Trolls are fun chewtoys.

Sure, Your Highness.

Shame BB's not taking the bait. I guess he's too busy pretending to think we all follow Glenn's word as law

All of you can hail Tres as your emperor. Mine is Hito, because he's the mastermind working behind the shadows.

even when he tries to use me as an example of something because he thinks I think differently from everyone else and he wants to use me as an example of how everyone thinks.

well... at least he's very consistent at being inconsistent.


Additional Note:

The goal post shifts again, not that I'm surprised at all. At this point, it is to be expected. But the way it's arbitrarily done to suit one's argument seems to be deliberate at this point I'm no longer inclined to give it credit.

 

[Ryushikaze]

BB, post something worth thanking and you'll get thanks. Otherwise, maybe just stop giving a shit about the thanks system entirely? It works for Ryu.

It does. It so very very does.

I'm not at present gonna bother replying to the rest of what you've said, as it is once more largely repetition of things you've already said (at most exaggerated to even more offensive levels) featuring you ignoring everyone else's points, twisting the narrative and quotes until they're ready to snap from the pressure, and overall failing to support your ship in every way. I genuinely wonder, IF you're not a troll, then why do you do this to yourself? You have to know (HAVE to, cause I've spelled it out word for word) what response you'll get when you do these things, plus an extra helping of aggression will come your way for the ever more obvious Tifa-bashing bullshit you bring to the table. So really, why?

The irony is, it's not even Tifa bashing. Well, it is, but only in a vague sense. It actually does more damage to the character of Cloud the way BB tries to erase Tifa from his concerns than it actually does anything to Tifa. Yes, it's obvious that BB does it because he does not care for Tifa and wants to erase the very obvious TIFA IS FOREMOST IN CLOUD'S MIND, NO REALLY, SHE'S LITERALLY PLASTERED EVERYWHERE WHEN WE GET TO VISIT, but the consequences just make his version of Cloud a douchenozzle, and that overshadows whatever it does to Tifa.

LOL @ equal footing.

Aerith and Tifa were NEVER in equal footing. Even the game mechanics showed this in numbers when it gave Aerith an initial 50 affection points, 20 points above Tifa's. Disregarding game mechanics and just looking at the narrative, Tifa was at a disadvantage on the first disc because of complications beyond her control, one of which was Cloud's loss of his tender memories of her. Another is Cloud's confused state of being. He may still recognize her as his childhood friend, but that is not the same with him having complete recall of his memories because it can limit his views of her to such, therefore prejudicing Tifa. Then Aerith, who is more assertive, straightforward, and less shy than Tifa, comes in the picture, and she created a unique relationship with Cloud at such a short time. This will either work well for or work against Aerith because she didn't have a relation with Cloud before their encounter, thus, she is not in a limited position compared to Tifa, couple that with the fact that Tifa herself is having trouble with her confidence of both her memories with Cloud and of herself, then it's very much in Aerith's favor. That doesn't mean Cloud prefers Aerith over Tifa at all. It simply means Aerith is the one having the advantage of the situation. Hardly equal footing.

The irony is, even despite things, despite Cloud not being himself and both of them being shyer than a shadow at noon and dumber about love than a double sack of hammers, everyone in Sector 7 could still tell they were more than just friends. Aerith was definitely a go getter, but she wasn't a bitch. I fully expect that had she not died, and this will surprise some people, she would have realized what she was getting in the way of and started pushing Cloud and Tifa together.
But yes, her outgoing personality gives her an advantage over Shy Tifa re: pursuing confused Cloud, though not much of one, given, you know, explicitly oblivious of her intentions.

Likewise, when the Real!Cloud emerged, the situation reversed. It was then Tifa having the advantage over Aerith and such advantage was beyond the latter's control because: (1) Cloud and Tifa's past has been established and can never be altered; (2) She's dead. Does this mean Cloud prefers Tifa over her? Not at all. Again, there is no equal footing.

Thing is, at different points in time, they both had something unique and special with Cloud that the other don't have, even during Cloud's messed up state. I guess what I'm saying is that different situations bring different opportunities, and while a certain circumstance can dictate the turn of events, it is not the sole dictator.

Besides, I don't get this thing about 'equal footing'. It's not like Cloud's affection is some kind of prize for some kind of twisted contest.

THANK YOU.
We need to be examining this in terms of characters, relationships, and narratives, not as a 'who won' pissing match. Neither Aerith nor Tifa would have wanted that.

Sure, Your Highness.

Please address me by my Proper Title, Deus Admiral Parsimonious.

All of you can hail Tres as your emperor. Mine is Hito, because he's the mastermind working behind the shadows.

What, I don't have a position in this oppressive Cloti regime? Time for a revolution, then.

well... at least he's very consistent at being inconsistent.

He's consistent at opportunistic sophistry, really.

Additional Note:

The goal post shifts again, not that I'm surprised at all. At this point, it is to be expected. But the way it's arbitrarily done to suit one's argument seems to be deliberate at this point I'm no longer inclined to give it credit.

Oh, the goalpost shift is absolutely deliberate. BB is constantly trying to evade questions and lead the argument exactly where he wants it to be. His goal is for Aerith to Win, and fuck the surrounding narrative.

That leads to his being a habitually dishonest debater, and it is for that, not for his Clerith preference, that he is loathed.

Hell, BB, we probably loathe you more than Anastar. Less than Shroudy, though.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

If Cloud had to be convinced to rescue Tifa based on only "The Don's not into men," "But, I just can't let you go in alone..." and "Oh, man......" -- then what the hell is this where we have a drawn out scene where Tifa and Barret have to convince Cloud to go after Aerith? He really would have left her had those two not convinced him to go.

Does this mean he didn't care for her? No. He was concerned about hurting her or someone else if he did go.

But, again, if that short little exchange with Aerith had to convince him to help Tifa (it didn't) when he was actually so concerned about her that he didn't even want to kick the door in because it could lead to a commotion that may get her hurt, then what would that make of this ordeal in getting Cloud to go help Aerith?

Oh, and would you look at that? The characters who couldn't think for themselves earlier and only helped rescue Aerith because Cloud wanted to are now the driving force in rescuing her this time. WEIRD.

Cloud says: "No. I might lose it again. If Sephiroth comes near me I might……"

The reason Cloud did not want to go to the City of the Ancients is because he had just been possessed by Sephiroth and given him the black materia. Cloud thought he could potentially hurt Aerith while Sephiroth was in his presence.

And guess what? CLOUD'S FEAR CAME TRUE. Sephiroth possessed Cloud again and he almost killed Aerith.

If anything, Cloud knew what everyone else didn't -- his presence put Aerith's safety at greater risk. This entire conversation actually shows Cloud predicted the future correctly and was right to worry that his presence might put Aerith in more danger. Just think if Cloud *HAD* killed Aerith. He'd probably be pretty pissed at Tifa for convincing him to go when he expressed reservations that turned out to be true.

But thanks for giving me yet another example of Cloud worrying about Aerith's safety

Great job discovering something I *just told you*, Columbo: "Does this mean he didn't care for her? No. He was concerned about hurting her or someone else if he did go."

Now answer the question. We're going to do this as many times as it takes until you learn how a conversation works:

----
If Cloud had to be convinced to rescue Tifa based on only "The Don's not into men," "But, I just can't let you go in alone..." and "Oh, man......" -- then what the hell is this where we have a drawn out scene where Tifa and Barret have to convince Cloud to go after Aerith? He really would have left her had those two not convinced him to go.

Does this mean he didn't care for her? No. He was concerned about hurting her or someone else if he did go.

But, again, if that short little exchange with Aerith had to convince him to help Tifa (it didn't) when he was actually so concerned about her that he didn't even want to kick the door in because it could lead to a commotion that may get her hurt, then what would that make of this ordeal in getting Cloud to go help Aerith?

Oh, and would you look at that? The characters who couldn't think for themselves earlier and only helped rescue Aerith because Cloud wanted to are now the driving force in rescuing her this time. WEIRD.
----

You didn't answer either question. Let's do this again:

----
Cloud doesn't continue protesting Aerith's involvement in dangerous affairs after this. Does this mean he has stopped caring about her afterward? Or does it mean he now cares about she and Tifa equally at this point?
----

I already answered your question: Cloud doesn't continue to worry about Aerith's involvement in dangerous situations because he's there to protect her. When Aerith is without Cloud, like she would have been in Don's mansion, that's when Cloud becomes uncomfortable with the idea of her being in a dangerous situation.

Then how does that indicate that he cares more about Aerith than he does Tifa? If he has less reason to be concerned about Tifa at Corneo's since he knows she can fight until he gets there to help her, and if he has less reason to be concerned about Aerith's safety when he knows he's there to protect her -- then where is the example in which both women are equally in need of help and Cloud favors protecting Aerith over Tifa?

All you've managed to argue for here is that he wants to know both of them are safe, either by virtue of their own fighting ability or his ability to protect them.

If the scene in the Don's mansion were to prove he simply cares about Aerith more, then he shouldn't want her getting in danger at all in subsequent scenarios, regardless of whether he's there. Him being there to keep her safe just makes the situation roughly equivalent to Tifa's situation at the Don's -- one where she's in a dangerous position but has a means of protection.

So that just brings us back to the questions I asked you before:

----
Cloud doesn't continue protesting Aerith's involvement in dangerous affairs after this. Does this mean he has stopped caring about her afterward? Or does it mean he now cares about she and Tifa equally at this point?
----

Now please answer them.

By the way, are you really suggesting that Cloud is more concerned about Aerith being alone with Corneo for a few minutes than he is with including her in infiltrating Junon and the cargo ship, despite all the armed guards she needed to slip past and the high voltage water she needed to safely get over -- something he left her to do alone while he fucked off to march in a parade and watch the Turks drink?

You're suggesting he was more concerned about her being alone with Corneo for a few minutes than he is with letting her fight the Turks? More concerned about leaving her with Corneo for a few minutes than taking her inside the Shinra Mansion when a Sephiroth copy says that Seph is inside?

Yeah, no.

Do you actually mean "concern" or "care"? Because if you want to go with "concern," I might agree. It makes sense for him to be more concerned about Aerith for the reasons Sprite pointed out. That isn't the same as caring about her more or favoring her, which is what you keep claiming.

All other things being equal, Cloud's behavior wouldn't indicate more care or favor for Aerith here.

Picture a "Die Hard" scenario with two police officers are sneaking through a building that has been taken over by machine gun-toting bad guys. They're in different parts of the building and they've never met each other before this.

One of them comes across a civilian screaming for help in an office. He dispatches her attackers, and -- being unable to leave her there -- brings her along with him to keep her safe.

Along the way, they run into the other officer. The other officer says that she has a plan to take down the leader of the group. The civilian asks how she can help. The officer who rescued her says that he can't let her get involved.

The civilian responds, "So, it's okay for the other girl to be in danger?"

What just happened here? Does the officer care more about the civilian or is his decision here not based on that at all, but rather on knowing that the other officer has the same training and ability to look out for herself that he does -- while the civilian has no such training and was literally begging for help shortly before this?

Now, if "Clearly he cares more about the civilian" sounds fucking insane, how much more so does it become when the other officer isn't a stranger at all? Instead, the other officer is the dude's one and only friend? A comrade in arms he has faced danger with before? Someone he owes his life to and made a promise long ago to protect?

How fucking batshit does it sound to then say "Clearly he cares more about the civilian"?

But…why would the civilian ask if it's OK for the other girl to be in danger, knowing that the other girl was an officer? No civilian I know would ask that.

Well, obviously that was the important part of that whole thing I wrote. It couldn't have been the scenario itself, which you glided over with all the grace of a sack of mortar mix.

Make her question something like, "We're all equally in danger, aren't we?" or have her say, "My life is in danger here too and I have a right to defend myself" -- I don't care. That isn't what you need to be focusing on.

This is:

----
What just happened here? Does the officer care more about the civilian or is his decision here not based on that at all, but rather on knowing that the other officer has the same training and ability to look out for herself that he does -- while the civilian has no such training and was literally begging for help shortly before this?

Now, if "Clearly he cares more about the civilian" sounds fucking insane, how much more so does it become when the other officer isn't a stranger at all? Instead, the other officer is the dude's one and only friend? A comrade in arms he has faced danger with before? Someone he owes his life to and made a promise long ago to protect?

How fucking batshit does it sound to then say "Clearly he cares more about the civilian"?
----

Having both Aerith and Coud rescue Tifa was an obvious way to set the stage for the love triangle. In fact, Aerith and Tifa's conversation when they first meet tells us this was SE's way to set up the love triangle (something your scenario obviously lacks).

How does this exclude the set up for the love triangle? Tifa is still seeing how Cloud and Aerith interact with one another. She still sees how quickly they have established a rapport. She still sees that Aerith is into Cloud.

Are you forgetting that Tifa gets jealous well before the conversation about posing as the Don's companions comes up?:

----
Aeris
Now's our chance. Let's find Tifa.

Aeris
...Tifa?
Nice to meet you. I'm Aeris.
Cloud's told me a lot about you.

Tifa
...And you are?
Hey you're the one with Cloud in the park...

Aeris
Right, with Cloud.

Tifa
Oh......

Aeris
Don't worry. We just met. It's nothing.

Tifa
What do you mean, 'Don't worry'... about what?
No, don't misunderstand.
Cloud and I grew up together. Nothing more.

Aeris
Poor Cloud, having to stand here and listen to both of us call him nothing.
Right, Cloud?

Tifa
Cloud?

Tifa
????
Cloud!?
Why are you dressed like that!? And what are you doing here!?
Forget that, what happened to you after the fall!? Are you hurt!?

Cloud
Hey, give me a chance to answer.
I'm dressed like this...... because there was no other way to get in here.
I'm all right. Aeris helped me out.

Tifa
Oh, Aeris did...

Cloud
Tifa, explain. What are you doing in a place like this?

Tifa
Yeah, ummm......

Aeris
Ahem!! I'll just plug my ears.
She walks a ways away and puts her hands to her ears.
Please, go on with your private conversation.

Tifa
...I'm glad you're OK.

Cloud
Thanks. What happened?

Tifa
When we got back from the Number 5 reactor, there was this weird man.
So Barret caught him and squeezed some information out of him.

Cloud
That's when the Don's name popped up.

Tifa
Right, Don Corneo.
Barret told me to leave the lech alone...
But something's been bothering me.

Cloud
I see. So you wanted to get the story straight from Corneo's mouth.

Tifa
So I made it here, but now I'm in a bind.
Corneo is looking for a bride.
Everyday, he gets three girls, chooses one of them, and then... ...and, well......
Anyway, I have to be the girl... or I'm out for tonight.

Aeris
Sorry... but I overheard...
If you know the three girls, there's no problem, right?

Tifa
I guess so, but...

Aeris
We have two here, right?

Cloud
No, Aeris! I can't have you get involved.

Aeris
Oh? So it's all right for Tifa to be in danger?

Cloud
No, I don't want Tifa in...

Tifa
Is it all right?

Aeris
I grew up in the slums... I'm used to danger.
Do you trust me?

Tifa
Yes. Thanks, Ms. Aeris.

Aeris
Call me Aeris.
----

The difference between the scenario I'm suggesting and the one you're arguing must be the case is -- as with so many of the ones you argue for -- mine includes the love triangle elements as an additional factor while yours makes them the focus. What do you think was the creative intent here? A multi-faceted story about identity and life that *included* a love triangle or the story of a love triangle with random other crap thrown in just to keep things moving?

Also -- if people think Cloud believes Tifa could take care of herself, why would it be unreasonable to think Cloud may have decided it wasn't worth it to break into Don's mansion after they turned him away for being a guy?

Because Tifa is his friend and he cares.

The fact is, Cloud's intent from the beginning was never to rescue Tifa. It was simply to find Seventh Heaven, and then it progressed to find out why Tifa was in a cart.

Who do you think he was planning to speak to when he got there? 'Cause he was just that invested in seeing Barret again?

There is no evidence Cloud was out to rescue Tifa.

"First... we need to find out if Tifa's alright..."

That's proof.

LOL

Let me make sure I follow you. During Cloud's story at Kalm, he said the following about Sephiroth: "In terms of skill, I couldn't have killed him."

So, he's more confident that he can protect Aerith from someone whom he doesn't think he could have beaten years earlier -- *after* that someone has gotten a power upgrade to boot -- than he is that he could protect her from a few non-enhanced dudes that he expressed no concern for himself about when he spoke of breaking into their place?

Cloud knew he had no shot in hell at convincing Aerith to change her mind. Elmyra says that once Aerith makes up her mind, there's no point in convincing her otherwise.

Which is not what I asked you at all:

----
So, he's more confident that he can protect Aerith from someone whom he doesn't think he could have beaten years earlier -- *after* that someone has gotten a power upgrade to boot -- than he is that he could protect her from a few non-enhanced dudes that he expressed no concern for himself about when he spoke of breaking into their place?
----

But, yeah, clearly back at the Don's she would have overpowered him. It's not like he could have grabbed her and dragged her off if her safety was the absolute no. 1 overriding concern, fuck everyone else.

----
Why did Cloud take Aerith into the Temple of the Ancients knowing Sephiroth -- who had already taken his mother from him and nearly Tifa as well -- would be inside? Was he not wavering in her direction that day?

If he took her in because it involved her, was important to her and he knew she could fight at this point, why is Cloud focusing on the civilian's safety back at the Don's a slighting of Tifa when that situation involved her, was important to her and he knew she could fight before that point?
----

Aerith wanted to go to the Temple of the Ancients. Cloud knew there was no point in trying to convince her not to go. So, the best he could do was make sure he was there to protect her the best he could. But once he realized Sephiroth could control him, he decided it might be best for Aerith's safety if he removed himself from the situation.

On the contrary, in the situations regarding Don's mansion, both before they entered and once they entered, he didn't want Aerith in any dangerous situations where he wouldn't be there to protect her.

And again you don't answer my question:

----
If he took her in because it involved her, was important to her and he knew she could fight at this point, why is Cloud focusing on the civilian's safety back at the Don's a slighting of Tifa when that situation involved her, was important to her and he knew she could fight before that point?
----

I thought you said the LTD was about the question "Who does Cloud love?" If the answer to that question is "Both Aerith and Tifa" -- which, again, you say it is -- why do you keep coming back to bullshit like this Wall Market situation and trying to determine "who he likes more"?

Because I think it's an interesting question. Obviously Cloud could like Aerith and Tifa equally, or for different reasons. But I think it's human nature to have a preference.

Fair enough.

While on that topic, I'm inclined to agree in large part, though I don't think it's necessarily human nature to have a preference in every category. Obviously there are some things about Aerith he likes better than in comparison to Tifa, and no doubt vice versa. Otherwise he wouldn't have been wavering between them to begin with.

His intent, from the moment he found out where she was going, was to make sure she was okay. He even says "First... we need to find out if Tifa's alright..." after your magical "Oh, man......" that you claim meant he was ready to leave her behind. He speaks of saving her when he gets those bikini briefs, which -- optional event or not -- tells us of his intent and where his mind is at the time

Cloud's intent to save Tifa was only after he didn't want Aerith to go alone. His intent before that was to find Seventh Heaven.

Because he loves it there so much? That's why he goes in completely the wrong direction, I guess.

Cloud
Well being a man, that'll be pretty hard. Besides if I bust in there, it'll cause too much commotion.
But, I just can't let you go in alone... Oh, man......
First... we need to find out if Tifa's alright...
What's so funny, Aeris?

Aeris
Cloud, why don't you dress up like a girl? It's the only way.
----

Now isn't that a peculiar series of lines? He says, "Oh, man......" but then says "First... we need to find out if Tifa's alright..." -- and what do you know? It's before Aerith presents an alternative to letting her go in alone or busting down the door!

If Cloud was always planning on going in regardless of being turned away, why does he have to convince himself that he can't let Aerith go in alone? The phrasing of Cloud's line just doesn't make sense if he was always going to go in.

He was always trying to check on Tifa. He's not convincing himself of anything, he's mulling over his dilemmas while trying to figure out a way to check on Tifa. He says himself: "First... we need to find out if Tifa's alright..."

Why, it's almost as though Cloud never abandoned the goal of checking on Tifa! Goodness gracious, could that be it?! Could it possibly be that he never intended to ditch the only person in the fucking world he called friend to be raped?!

But once Cloud got inside, he didn't express worry for Tifa until after Aerith pointed out his double standard. This suggests Cloud wasn't worried about Tifa being in there to begin with.

[/quote]

"First... we need to find out if Tifa's alright..."
"Tifa, explain. What are you doing in a place like this?"

----
Aeris
Oh? So it's all right for Tifa to be in danger?

Cloud
No, I don't want Tifa in...
----

You're lying again.

Plus, according to you guys, Cloud thinks Tifa can take care of herself, but he doesn't think Aerith can do the same.

So if Cloud thinks Tifa can take care of herself, but he doesn't think Aerith can do the same, if Cloud had been without Aerith, he may very well have turned around when they said Don isn't interested in men. But since he was with Aerith (a girl he didn't think could fight very well) he decided to go in.

He didn't know what Tifa's exact situation was yet. It's not enough to know that she's generally capable of taking care of herself.

Using the police officer analogy again, just because you know your partner has a gun and training, that doesn't mean you aren't going to check on them if they went in the crack house and didn't come back out.

As for the topic of Sprites:

I have to confess that I literally laughed out loud when I read this.

So what she said is not even feasible, huh? The *only* thing that would make sense in that scenario is that Cloud can't stop thinking about sticking his dick in Aerith? It *has to be* that he just likes this chick he's known for a few hours better than his childhood friend -- the only person in the world he currently considers a friend?

I said that the reason I didn't want to respond to her post was because it would have led to an exchange between us, and I was already bogged down with debating numerous people. You said that didn't make sense because it wouldn't have necessarily led to an exchange between us. Then I told you it would have led to an exchange between us because I don't agree with everything she said.

Which brought me to this question:

----
So what she said is not even feasible, huh? The *only* thing that would make sense in that scenario is that Cloud can't stop thinking about sticking his dick in Aerith? It *has to be* that he just likes this chick he's known for a few hours better than his childhood friend -- the only person in the world he currently considers a friend?
----

Honestly, dude, I haven't noticed any of your posts get ignored. If anything, each one gets too many responses leading to your issue of having a back-and-forth with too many people at once.

Hell, I couldn't even post fast enough to prevent GLD from responding to your attempt at rehashing the "For the One I Love" page. How in hell are you feeling ignored in this thread?

I'm not feeling ignored. I'm saying some of my posts have been ignored, yet you think I should have given Sprites a "courtesy response". That's a double standard. And what the hell is a "courtesy response"? I've never heard of that before, nor have I ever received one when my posts have been ignored. But thanks for the étiquette lesson.

Where are you seeing a double standard? I told you I don't know what the hell you're talking about. You've been getting a ton of responses. When has a single post of yours gone by without response?

You guys thank each others posts all the time. At this point, I don't even look at the amount of "thanks" a post gets because of how overused it is on this site.

You guys thank each others posts all the time. At this point, I don't even look at the amount of "thanks" a post gets because of how overused it is on this site.

It was still a new observation addressed to you and more thorough than any that anyone had yet brought up, explaining everything about the scene and acknowledging the entirety of the conversation. It merited your response.

This is pretty inconsistent logic from a lot of you guys:

People keep saying the reason Cloud initially expressed more concern for Aerith's involvement in the plan to fool Don Cornero was because Cloud viewed Aerith as a weaker fighter than Tifa. So the natural conclusion is that Cloud is going to show more concern over Aerith's involvement than Tifa's.

But if this logic can be applied once Cloud and Aerith are inside, can't this logic be applied to when Cloud and Aerith are outside, too?

Was that not the case when he said he didn't want her going in alone?

Why is it so hard to believe that if Cloud had been alone, he would have walked away when they told him Don wasn't interested in men?

Because Tifa is his friend? Why is *that* so hard to believe?

After-all, Cloud thinks Tifa can take care of herself. She's apart of AVALANCHE and Cloud has bombed reactors with her. So doesn't it make sense that Cloud went in initially because he didn't want Aerith, a weak fighter, to go alone?

He was only there in the first place to find out why Tifa was there. How do you keep forgetting this?

The only way to answer this would be to have had Cloud actually be himself while around both of them and see what he does then -- and that is not something that can ever happen. This was a deliberate part of the design process. You're overlooking the hypothetical phrasing Nojima spoke in. That's all there can ever be here: hypothetical musings. No clear answers. Not for Cloud. Not for Nojima. Not for you. Not for anybody. That was the point. That's the kind of unanswered questions and eternal mysteries something like the sudden death of a loved one leaves you with.

You're trying to solve a mystery that has no answer.

I'll get to the rest of your replies tomorrow.

Meh. There's always room for hypothesizes.

Fact is, when Aerith and Tifa were on equal footing, Cloud preferred Aerith. 'nuff said.

That isn't phrased like a hypothesis.

But here's one for you: Fact is, when Aerith and Tifa were on "equal footing," Cloud wasn't really Cloud. He was a mixed up souffle consisting of his own ideal vision of himself mixed with Zack's personality mixed with his real personality -- and a dash of Sephiroth's influencing thrown in for flavor. Enough said.

 

[BlankBeat]

Now answer the question. We're going to do this as many times as it takes until you learn how a conversation works:

LOL -- your condescending behavior is shining through again.

----
If Cloud had to be convinced to rescue Tifa based on only "The Don's not into men," "But, I just can't let you go in alone..." and "Oh, man......" -- then what the hell is this where we have a drawn out scene where Tifa and Barret have to convince Cloud to go after Aerith? He really would have left her had those two not convinced him to go.

Does this mean he didn't care for her? No. He was concerned about hurting her or someone else if he did go.

But, again, if that short little exchange with Aerith had to convince him to help Tifa (it didn't) when he was actually so concerned about her that he didn't even want to kick the door in because it could lead to a commotion that may get her hurt, then what would that make of this ordeal in getting Cloud to go help Aerith?
----

How would the commotion lead to Tifa getting hurt? How would they know Cloud's commotion was to rescue Tifa?

Your premise that these scenarios are similar is false.

Then how does that indicate that he cares more about Aerith than he does Tifa? If he has less reason to be concerned about Tifa at Corneo's since he knows she can fight until he gets there to help her, and if he has less reason to be concerned about Aerith's safety when he knows he's there to protect her -- then where is the example in which both women are equally in need of help and Cloud favors protecting Aerith over Tifa?

All you've managed to argue for here is that he wants to know both of them are safe, either by virtue of their own fighting ability or his ability to protect them.

What I'm pointing out is people's inconsistent logic (I know, me of all people, pointing out inconsistent logic).

If you are going to argue that the reason Cloud expressed concern for Aerith's safety before Tifa's safety once inside Don's mansion because Tifa is a stronger fighter than Aerith, why can't this logic be applied to when they were outside Don's mansion?

If the scene in the Don's mansion were to prove he simply cares about Aerith more, then he shouldn't want her getting in danger at all in subsequent scenarios, regardless of whether he's there. Him being there to keep her safe just makes the situation roughly equivalent to Tifa's situation at the Don's -- one where she's in a dangerous position but has a means of protection.

But in the scenario with Don's mansion, Cloud says, "But I can't let you go alone".

This mean Cloud is OK with Aerith being in dangerous situations so long as he's there with her. I don't know how much more clear-cut that can be.

So that just brings us back to the questions I asked you before:

----
Cloud doesn't continue protesting Aerith's involvement in dangerous affairs after this. Does this mean he has stopped caring about her afterward? Or does it mean he now cares about she and Tifa equally at this point?
----

Now please answer them.

I've already answered this. Cloud knows he's there to protect Aerith, so he doesn't protest her involvement.

Obviously, Cloud knows you can't convince Aerith once she had made up her mind. So the best he can do is make sure he's there to protect her.


...

That's all I have time for today. It's my Brother's first home football game of his senior year, he's varsity quarterback, and tons of family are coming to town for it.

So, carry on people, carry on!

 

[Obsidian Fire]

I love how the LTD thread turns us all into novel writers...

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

That's all I have time for today. It's my Brother's first home football game of his senior year, he's varsity quarterback, and tons of family are coming to town for it.

So, carry on people, carry on!

What's there to carry on? You still didn't answer the questions I asked, so we're right where we were before you posted, only I now have an additional claim to respond to.

How would the commotion lead to Tifa getting hurt? How would they know Cloud's commotion was to rescue Tifa?

Your premise that these scenarios are similar is false.

They don't have to know he's there for Tifa to begin a fight that may endanger her. Cloud doesn't know if these guys have guns. We know from his assistance with Aerith at the church and his raid of the mako reactors that he's not afraid of a few guys with guns, so what is his concern here?

I know you want to say Aerith, but it would be easy enough to have her go hide. Headstrong as she is, if Cloud says "I'm going to start a battle. Get out of sight," she's not going to interfere. She certainly didn't go out of her way to fight at the church.

So, yes, the scenarios are similar. Cloud busts in, he endangers Tifa. Cloud goes to the norther continent, he endangers Aerith (and the rest of the crew).

Also, here's a follow-up question for you: How is it at all logical that Cloud stuck around for Tifa because of his promise to her the day before if he wasn't going to make sure she was okay in this more volatile situation?

In summary:
-Similar situations
-You still didn't answer any of my questions
-I hope your family enjoys the football game and your team wins

 

[Ryushikaze]

Hey, BB, if you've been out and out ignored, maybe telling us who ignored you and what post might help.
Answering questions and not being dishonest with your evidence and arguments would also help.

 

[Dashell]

Hell, BB, we probably loathe you more than Anastar. Less than Shroudy, though.

We who?
I don't loathe Anastar, or Shroudy... and although BB is hard to debate with sometimes, I don't hate him. I just wish he'd answer Glenn's questions better

 

[Ryushikaze]

We who?
I don't loathe Anastar, or Shroudy... and although BB is hard to debate with sometimes, I don't hate him. I just wish he'd answer Glenn's questions better

We the folks who have stated a general loathing for the way BB acts in a debate. I have found BB continually dishonest and weaselly, and I find that loathsome, as do several other people.

 

[I Am Not Me]

Hell, BB, we probably loathe you more than Anastar. Less than Shroudy, though.

I'd like to say I'm not included in this 'we'. As it so happens, I do like that BB is around because otherwise this thread is inactive and I have nothing entertaining to read during downtimes.

As a person... also no. As a debater... well, 'loathe' is a pretty harsh word. 'Insulting' would be a better word for me. People, including me, have already said what they wanted about BB's debating so I won't go further than this about it.

Reserving my judgement on Anastar and Shroudy, as I have not personally encountered them, but I don't think I'll dislike them. Unless they start insulting my mom.

That leads to his being a habitually dishonest debater, and it is for that, not for his Clerith preference, that he is loathed.

Also this. People, both in and out of TLS, should keep in mind that in this thread/debate we don't care what your shipping preference is. What we do care about is how you debate.

For example, everyone loves me because I am honest, cute, intelligent, and quite sexy in a Reptar suit.

It's not because I'm a Clack and that Clack is canon. But it is also because I actually like to debate while respecting the creators and characters themselves by not butchering them (or their words) for my shipping preference. Seriously, at least.

Fact is, when Aerith and Tifa were on equal footing, Cloud preferred Aerith. 'nuff said.

That isn't phrased like a hypothesis.

But here's one for you: Fact is, when Aerith and Tifa were on "equal footing," Cloud wasn't really Cloud. He was a mixed up souffle consisting of his own ideal vision of himself mixed with Zack's personality mixed with his real personality -- and a dash of Sephiroth's influencing thrown in for flavor. Enough said.

Additional: When Cloud finally regained his real self, Aerith's been dead for a while. So what real!Cloud really feels about Aerith, equal footing or no, is still up in the air. I mean, there is already no question about whose romantic feelings got reciprocated (hint: it's Tifa, which BB even admits to), so the question we're trying to answer now is 'did Cloud actually have romantic feelings for Aerith too?'.

All we know is that he is guilty of her death and wants forgiveness by the time of ACC. That's the most concretely stated description of his feelings for/about her, without any added assumptions. That's a fact.

We can keep arguing about disc 1 and see no end to it. Everything I have been provided with so far have been mostly assumptions and interpretation of lines, quotes and scenes. I have not yet seen evidence as concrete as HAHW scene (before you even, the date/s isn't as concrete because nothing in the date/s ever said Cloud exchanged mutual feelings with any of the characters involved).

My position on this wavers () between 'yes, Cloud loved Aerith romantically' and 'yes, Cloud loved her, but not romantically'. I'm yes to Cloud loving her, it's the romantic part I need to be convinced of. My position wavers because of the aforementioned lack of concrete evidence as well as the current provided 'evidence' being demeaning to the characters, both central and side, and the story of FF7 as a whole, which I (and the creators) are most certainly in disagreement with.

I love how the LTD thread turns us all into novel writers...

The LTD thread helped me become one of the top essay writers in my year.

 

[Aerobalance]

I love how the LTD thread turns us all into novel writers...

Good thing we Clourret shippers do nothing of the sort and ship the actual pairing in the game.

 

[Aerobalance]

So.. they just kept rejecting each other back and forth?

Yes

Barret is regretting not shooting Tifa after the highwind incident.

 

[Strangelove]

Cloud thinking about being a man and causing a commotion is prompted by Aerith saying, "Do you want to go with me?" -- that's the part a lot of you keep forgetting.

Plus, after Aerith asks him to go with her (which implies Cloud might not have gone in if Aerith hadn't been there to invite him) Cloud doesn't say, "Of course I'm going with you!" -- he simply tells Aerith what kind of place Don's mansion is.

Aerith is able to just walk in the door. Cloud can't do this because he's a man, and storming in would cause problems. This doesn't say anything about him not going in or thinking of another way. This is something you've read into the scene without anything to back it up.

She doesn't 'ask him to go in with her'. She isn't even thinking about him going in, she was set to go in on her own. She isn't inviting him or anything. This again isn't implying that Cloud would have given up here. She is just saying 'what, you're going in too?'

If Cloud was always going to go in, why does he say, "BUT I can't let Aerith go alone". Why would Aerith going alone even be relevant if he was always going to go? Not only does the phrasing of Cloud's line make no sense, but if he was always gong to go in, he wouldn't have even needed to say it.

Aerith is talking about just walking in normally. Do you think she was going to Solid Snake her way inside and check on Tifa? He says he can't go in, or force his way in, because he's already been turned away at the door.

Aerith going alone is relevant because she has just decided this, on her own, right then and there. That doesn't say anything about Cloud going in or not. It's another one of Aerith's impulsive actions that Cloud just has to deal with. They are making their plan up as they go along, as more information becomes available to them. First they are just going to go to sector 7, then they are going to find would where Tifa was heading, then they were going to make sure Tifa was okay/get her out of the Don's mansion.

Cloud didn't intend to bring Aerith along. Both before and after the scene in the park he talks about her going back home (straight up telling her to go home when she started chasing the cart with Tifa in). But Aerith doesn't listen, she makes her own plans and goes along with them. Just like how she went with him when he was going back to Seventh Heaven despite him leaving without telling her, just like she followed Tifa into Wall Market.

The word "BUT" implies that although he might have decided not to go in if Aerith hadn't been there, because she was there, her safety overrides any reservations he might have had that would have prevented him from entering.

Reservations about going in the front door. Again, where do you see anything suggesting he was going to give up here?

(Answer: Nowhere, because it doesn't exist.)

What about the second 'but/however' from the Japanese line? What's the implications of that? That was a new point of discussion, and you've just sort of breezed over it in order to repeat yourself and your 'Cloud cares more about Aerith than Tifa' angle. What is implied by "that said [I'm a man; storming in would cause trouble], I can't have Aerith go... wait, but... first we have to make sure Tifa is safe..."? What has he just thought of there, that first requires making sure Tifa is safe?

We'll never know, just like we'll never know what would happen if Aerith grew up in Nibelheim or if she didn't die or any of the other What-Ifs that exist.

Right. This is after Cloud had already determined that he couldn't let Aerith go alone.

I'm not saying Cloud didn't care for Tifa's safety. What I'm saying is that Aerith's safety seemed to be Cloud's primary concern and motivating factor.

I'm going to copy the rest of my post you didn't respond to for some reason:

If he is wondering if Tifa is safe, then he obviously isn't thinking she will be fine on her own. At this point he doesn't know she is there on her own volition. So to suggest that Cloud was ready to give up and leave in this scene is saying that he was willing to leave Tifa, who he has known since childhood and currently works with and cares about to some minimal degree reserved for anyone who isn't Aerith, in a situation where her 'sexual safety' (and possibly physical safety) is in jeopardy. He is set to leave her there to face whatever may happen, in a place with such a sordid reputation.

This is what people mean when they criticise 'Clerith Cloud'. Situations like this that are apparently perfectly fine and just go to show you how much more he cares for Aerith. This is the character we are supposed to relate to.


To say that he might not have gone in is pulling stuff out of thin air because we aren't given any information to support that notion. After talking to the doorman, Aerith decides herself that she'll go in. Cloud doesn't even have a chance to say anything. Aerith has hijacked the conversation with her own ideas, and she won't listen to anyone else.

Again, Cloud didn't know for sure if Tifa was safe since he says they need to check if she is. So Cloud, having seen where Tifa was, would just leave her in danger? This is all based on Cloud saying he can't just waltz in the front door? Once he's inside and finds out about her plan it's a different matter, but outside the door it is just you suggesting that he would leave her there to fend for herself because there is no easy way to get in.

By suggesting that he was going to turn back there because he ran into obstacles, you're saying that he doesn't even care enough to make sure Tifa is safe. He won't even look through a window or something to see if she is all right. Just shrug his shoulders and go... somewhere.

Instead of focusing on individual words like 'oh man' or 'but' and how they back up what you're trying to assert, look at what implications your assertion has overall. You're saying Cloud doesn't care if Tifa is molested, doesn't care about this woman at all because at this point in time he would rather get his leg over with the other one. That's the big picture you're painting with this. You say that you aren't 'saying Cloud doesn't care about Tifa', but that's basically what you're saying. That Tifa's safety doesn't matter unless Aerith's is somehow at risk. Tifa's rescue is just a by-product of him only caring about Aerith. Otherwise she can stay in a mansion of a well-known pervert because hey, at least Aerith is safe, right?

Which might sound like a lovely romantic story to you, but to me that sounds like Cloud is a massive prick.

 

[Splintered]

Which might sound like a lovely romantic story to you, but to me that sounds like Cloud is a massive prick.

Can we take a minute and appreciate the fact that if this really was the Cloud portrayed in the games, no way in the flaming hells of Midgar would Aerith like him.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Because relevant, here, at last, is an official English release's take on the dialogue specifying that Cloud was searching for Sephiroth in the first Kingdom Hearts:

Eleven years and several much cooler fights between Cloud and Sepihroth later, we have an official English version of Shwodown of Fate:

(go to 2:15 in the first video for Aerith's dialogue about Cloud)

 

[Strangelove]

FOR HIS FRIEND?

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Yeah, don't ask me how they got "friend" out of あの人/"ano hito"/"that person." I can only figure that they went for what they thought was a wording true to the gender neutral phrasing.

 

[Dashell]

.... Do they... do they NOT know who Sephiroth is... or... or is Aerith just really out of the loop?



I like how she said "We all care about him deeply"... so cute

 

[Strangelove]

But one being searched for is already gendered (あの人、まだ彼のこと探してるのかし&#12425. Unless it was someone else whose gender is not specified that is looking for a male, which I never really considered but it seems unlikely.

http://i.imgur.com/M4ZfuCbh.jpg