When my friends say that, I think they're empty words. Idk, they could already say that they 'missed our conversations' or something.
But it would be incredibly awkward for them to say 'Words aren't the only way etc.' to you, no? Or you to them?
The confirmation we are talking about is the one stated in the HW scene, right? Ok. They could have very well confirmed feelings of regret, sorrow or guilt. It is not just about love, is it?
But we are told that they confirm these feelings on the page discussing admissions of romantic love.
Again, why the need for Cloud to seek forgiveness only from Aerith? And if he was really happy, then why did he feel alone? It was not until the end of AC/ACC that he realized he wasn't alone.
Cloud felt alone because he made himself alone. He withdrew, he kept people at a distance, not because he wanted to, but because he felt he needed to.
Uhm, wouldn't Cloud have felt more guilty with Zack's death? I mean, Zack did die protecting Cloud, and he was so intoxicated that he couldn't help out. Wouldn't he feel the same amount of guilt as with Aerith's death?
Zack died fighting an entire army and he could do nothing.
Aerith died to a single man- granted, Sephiroth, but Cloud had defeated him before- and nearly killer her himself after promising to protect her. There's several extra layers of perceived failure there.
That's why I say initially. And he did pause before smiling. It may have been because he though about it first before agreeing in the end.
Cloud had thought that Denzel was brought to him because he was the one needing to atone. Tifa telling him he wasn't brought only to him made him happy, since he's not in this alone. Of course, this happiness only makes that guilt worse, so he goes to find the cure, gets the disease, and freaks out.
It seems Ryu was talking about the script. Well, Cloud did mention 'Tifa, Marlene and Denzel-his family', so it's like listing them. But towards the end, we see the picture frames on Cloud's desk, where the picture of the just Cloud, Tifa, Marlene and Denzel was pushed back, and the picture of the AVALANCHE team, along with flowers, at the front. Can this mean that Cloud considers them part of his family now?
10th Ani Ulti, not script.
Also, it's not been pushed back, it's largely in the same place, with the Avalanche picture to the side.
And technically, we COULD read it that Cloud considers them his family, but this is nowhere near as well supported textually. They certainly aren't part of the 7th heaven family unit.
First, I think I submitted more than one reply. Sorry! I didn't know that it had to be approved.
It's inconsistent about which posts it flags and which ones it doesn't, honestly.
I just asked if it was the default.
So we're now at an agreement here. Moving on...
I just wanted to stress that the argument that something is default is basically meaningless. I've been agreeing that it's 'default' for awhile.
But isn't it for the affection of those involved in the date to get higher, you'd have to make Cloud act nice/affectionate as well?
Nope. Best way to get Yuffie's points up is to repeatedly ignore, insult, and mock her in the post recruitment battle dialogue and then fail to get her at the very end. Gets you like +8 at a pop.
Giving Marlene a flower gets you +5 to Barret. Lots of random things affect the AVs of the four folks.
Tifa likes you more if you worry about Aerith in Corneo's mansion, and less if you worry about her.
I thought it was in 10th Anniv Ultimania? Oh well. It was also said it was suggestive. Meaning that her line suggested a risque meaning.
I was actually rapid fire referencing several things there. The interview in which Nojima calls 'words aren't the only way' risque is in the U10, yes. I was also referencing the U20 page about romantic love, and the fact that Cloud and Tifa discuss how their hearts called out to each other in the lifestream (Or technically how Tifa tells Cloud about how she called out to him and thought she heard him calling back and he quitely confirms he did hear her heart.)
Well, he was not the type to say much either. So, yeah.
No, I mean just before that, he says he can't find the words to say what he feels. It's what prompts 'words aren't the only way.'
It doesn't say anything about the Low Affection version then? Hmm... Funny thing, I thought it had said that there was a deviation to the Highwind Scene on page 232.
I believe it mentions it somewhere else, but IIRC, it doesn't mention it on the notable scenes page. If it does, it's very briefly. It's pretty much a transcription of the dialogue.
Loving someone does not end in death. And the theme of FFVII is about life and death, and how there is still a connection even after in death.
Not denying any of that. However, one does have to love someone while they are alive to still love them in death, and there are certainly far more parsimonious explanations for for many of Cloud's actions than those that predicate themselves on a continued romantic longing for the deceased.
He could have told Tifa, since they had mutual feelings for each other. Not telling Tifa only added to her insecurity, did it not? In a way, that is worse than not letting her know what's eating him from the inside.
I'm not saying Cloud did the right thing. I'm saying Cloud did what he thought was the right thing.
I do find it interesting that he told Aerith, and not anyone else who surrounded him.
He told the suspected agency of his absolution he desired absolution. Telling anyone else would would be fruitless and cause them undo worry.
Now, I disagree with him- I think talking about it in more detail rather than keeping it as his own problem would have done him and everyone a world of good, I'm just trying to report his mindset as best I understand it.
If he were really happy, why feel alone? He only realized he wasn't alone towards the end of AC/ACC.
It's because he's happy that he feels guilty- he doesn't feel he deserves it. So instead of 'feeling' alone, he makes himself alone. His realizing that he's not alone at the end of AC/C- when Zack and Aerith have already left, incidentally- is that he doesn't have to shoulder his burdens on his own, that he can ask for help, and get it, and rely on them, etc. etc. etc.
Cloud never wanted to be alone, he just felt he HAD to be.
So, we can still consider his statements to be true unless proven otherwise. Glad you cleared that up. :p
And his statement in 2002 about 'having no clue' has been proven otherwise. Especially by Nojima, who's a lot more forthright in his statements. Basically, his words post release mean more than his words pre-release. He actually says things post-release, and he says a whole lot of nothing designed to drum up interest pre-release.
I don't really get what you mean. But, I like that icon a lot.
I'd explain, but I'd have to violate the current rules sixteen ways to sunday to do it. In short, people really didn't like the idea that Koibito meant lover/beloved and kept inventing new meanings and excuses right up until COLW last year. In spite of, y'know, dictionaries. It still happens from time to time. It is infuriating.
He didn't know that his family were there before he woke up. In the script, he described the Church as his promised land before he sees all those people there with him. And I do wonder when he thought of the Church as his promised land, if it was before Aerith talked to him, I guess him living there must mean something, If it was after, still, the Church was related to Aerith.
But the church was only his promised land once he had gotten over his hangups. One's promised land is a transitory thing. Almost by definition. It's wherever you are most happy. For Cloud, it would seem it's surrounded by friends and family without his worries weighing him down.
For the Cetra, it was the lifestream.
For Yuffie, it's Scrooge McDuck's tower. But only when the money's in it.
The Church was his promised land before he was aware of anyone in the Church.
Hmm. You got me wondering too. Though I don't see my ideas as creepy.
The church was his promised land once his guiltwolf vanished. It's more about the when than the where.
I did mean her death. Sorry, wasn't clear on that. What scene are we talking about in the apology?
When he drives in, throws the sword at the creepers, kills the building, and snatches Tifa from the falling debris onto the back of the bike. He apologizes for being late, just like he did about the Nibelheim incident.
Yes, he nearly did it himself. Which brings the question, why did Sephiroth wait for Cloud and made him do it? Given that it was only Cloud who was there, it was Cloud who asked the others to let him go alone.
To prove to Cloud that he could play him like a puppet and his actions are entirely meaningless. It's only by the last minute intervention of his shouting friends that Cloud manages to snap out of his wiggy state, and then Sephiroth does it anyways. Likewise, later, he tricks the person you have hold the Black Materia to bring it to Cloud rather than take it himself just so he can dominate Cloud's mind again and make him do it.
In CoT, she has her own bedroom where Marlene had slept with her before Denzel came in right?
Actually, we can't say that. Literally, all we know of the 7th heaven upstairs is that there were beds enough for everyone, that the kid's room currently has two, Cloud's office has one, and there are more rooms down the hall.
For all we know, Marlene slept with her in a large bed Tifa slept in with Cloud. Or they're doing the I love Lucy two beds one room thing.
Barret had his room there. And so did Cloud. Barret left to work far away. Cloud then started his delivery service. Denzel came in. We can say that Marlene and Denzel moved into another room, maybe Barret's. Tifa kept hers. Cloud made his room into an office, or maybe there was another room he had made into his office. Nice lay-out.
)
All possible, but still all assumption. Which is the problem. For all we know, Cloud took Barret's old room and turned it into his office, same as my father took my old bedroom and turned it into his at my parent's house.
And that room still has a queen sized bed in it, not the ratty cot in the 7th heaven office.
Yep, I saw that. But towards the end, we see the picure of the whole AVALANCHE team, and the flowers, in front of the picture of the family of only four. Can we say that it may be because Cloud now considers the others as also part of the family?
As I said above, we could. But it's not textually supported.
Then it would seem like he thought of Denzel as a chance given by Aerith for him to make that difference.
Yes. He thought Denzel was his way of making up for his past failings. And then he began failing Denzel when the stigma started getting worse and he couldn't find a cure.
Yep. In glorious black and white. Or whitish and green. Or white and Navy. In plain text, anyways.
I really didn't see that. Boohoo.
I wish I could.
I'm pretty sure it's on the AC/C bluray.
Yeah, I thought we agreed on that already.
We did. I just wanted to reiterate. I forgot to throw in a floating head joke, though.
Which means my plans for a series of obscure Max Headroom references are now wasted. Wasted I tell you.
Uhm, let me check on that one....
Hmm..
Where did I drag unrelated CloTi's there? I don't really remember.
The 'you may hold' bit where I asked who it was so I could smack them.
Oh man. I'm not touching this topic anymore. We have different opinions on how he acts anyway. We'd continuously babble back and forth.
But that's fun.
Yeah. That offended me, thank you very much. Oh well. It's a small matter now anyways. I do stay away when the debate gets ugly. And I leave without a word. Fair warning, so that if I don't post anymore, the meaning will be clear.
I'd rather you gave us one final send off, if you do decide to go.
By saying it's "good' she isn't among the number of people who say Cloud is a rebellious teenager, it implies that you think that that belief held by those people you just mentioned is ludicrous in some shape or form.
No, it means I don't want to discuss that and it's good she's not bringing it to the table.
It would be as if I said to Anastar, "Good you don't believe that Aerith still loves Zack like that Ryushikaze guy." Isn't that kind of offensive toward you? I already know you're going to say, "No" but... well it is, it's meant to say your belief is stupid. I mean come on, am I just crazy here? Is this that hard to follow?
There's a difference between believing something, and asserting it and insisting it in an argument. If someone believes in, say, the existence of Thor, there's still a difference between believing it, bringing it into an argument where it complicates matters, and also further difference between attempting to establish it and taking it for granted.
If you believe something is true, fine. Start proving it. Don't insist it is.
