The Love Triangle Debate thread of KNEEL BEFORE ZOD OR SUFFER HIS WRATH (ignore the opening posts at your peril) (Round 6)

[Makoeyes987]

Keep it civil folks. I'm serious.

Don't make this about anything else but the actual arguments in said post.

Do not forget the rules, we have them for a reason.

 

[Celes Chere]

If you have to ask if it will be offensive... you probably shouldn't do it.

 

[Dashell]

I'm sorry
I honestly didn't think it would be. I guess maybe "someone" would have been better, but then it was my bad because I told her it would be fine. So yeah sorry if that was offensive, but really I didn't think anyone would even notice.

 

[Celes Chere]

"Someone" would probably be worse. But if no offense was meant by it then who cares, lol. When I quote things I don't even put peoples names what I'm quoting most of the time. I guess her using "Cloti" makes it seem like we're all the same or something? I mean I can see how it'd be seen in a poor way. But yeah if it's nothing then it's no big deal.

 

[Dashell]

Okay, Anastar, bare with me, I can't seem to get my scanner working tonight, but I want to make this post. So for now, just a crappy image which will be a better one later. I think you don't quite get the context of one of the quotes I posted. Here's the page:

Like I said bare with me. What you're looking at is a story summary for FFVII from the 10th AU. It's a few pages long that gives brief descriptions of various scenes throughout the story.

Do you see the underline part? Right before that underline part it mentions that the team disperses and such, and then the next line is "Cloud and Tifa, who remain, reveal their feelings for each other and confirm them to match." With a number after it. That's what I circled and on the left, I circled it again to show this is what it's referencing. That there, is a screenshot of the HA scene.

NO WHERE on this page, in the summary or anywhere in the U10 does it say anything about Tifa's affections, or the LA scene. It's just straight up, "During the course of the story, this happens." with a picture of the HA scene, so we KNOW they're talking about romantic feelings in that quote.

Also the story summary shows Vincent and Yuffie in various scenes.

So now, my question to you is, if this is NOT saying the HA scene happened when it outright says it happened in a story summary... what is it saying? Again, there's nothing on the page about affection levels or "if this" and "if that." It's just flat out "when they leave, C and T reveal mutual romantic feelings." You yourself said if Square says a scene happened, it happened, and this is pretty much as clear as it gets for Square.

And Square has canonized scenes like this with story summaries before. (Stolen from Tres posts): Examples include Terra's revelation about love, FFV's Happy Ending, Tidus returning in X-2's ending (the U20 Scenario's story summary for that one even shows a screenshot of he and Yuna together along with a caption for it saying "Tidus is resurrected in the ending movie, in a connection to the very end of the previous work's ending"), and well this .

And just to point it out to everyone, since Anastar was talking about connection problems and loading times, I did agree to send posts to her via PM and she'll post her responses here. Hopefully this will work better. Just FYI

Spoiler: this is what I sent to her this time so this is what she'll respond to

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Tres wrote:

The Ultimania Omega says Cloud's warm greeting to Yuffie when she returned to the airship the next morning was a result of the night he spent with Tifa (pg. 39).

In case no one remembers that exchange, here it is:

Cloud
Welcome back, Yuffie.
Yuffie
Gee, Cloud...... that's so nice of you to say that. ......You sick?

The UO quote is:

Yuffie is unaware that Cloud and Tifa had just spent the night together.

What in the low affection version would logically lend itself to Cloud being so chipper?

==============

One Winged Demon Wrote:

ANASTAR:

Tifa has a low affection rating for Cloud when Cloud doesn't show romantic interest in Tifa during the game. If Cloud doesn't show romantic interest in Tifa during the game, then he has no romantic interest in her. Therefore, their feelings are mutual.

Incorrect. Tifa having feelings for Cloud is not optional. Even if you claim Cloud's feelings are, Tifa's are not. They are repeatedly referenced in not only the game, but everywhere else. Hell, this is in the game manual before you even begin the game. And it is stated again and again that BOTH ladies have feelings for him.

[FFVII] Both Aerith, who is forthright, and Tifa, who is demure, have feelings for Cloud but he is none the wiser to them. - 10th Anniversary

Tifa's feelings are never optional. They are fact.
Therefore, it is impossible that Tifa is romantically disinterested, as you claim, which makes “mutual romantic disinterest” an impossibility. I see, however, that you are also of the "Cloud rejects Tifa" school of thought. If Cloud rejects Tifa, then Tifa has feelings for Cloud, that he rejects. Therefore, once again, the feelings cannot be "mutual". You can't have it both ways, Anastar.


And I'm going to reiterate:

[talking about Katou and Ikumori, event planner and movie designer of FFVII respectively]

Nomura: Now he’s the movie director on DC and CC.
Kitase: Katou also did the event on the airship, the night before the final battle.
Nojima: Oh, the scene with the risqué line of dialogue?

For Nojima, the Highwind scene is synonymous with “scene with risque dialogue”. That's how the staff know the scene under the Highwind before the final battle. That's the one that happened. That is the version they include in the summary of the game.



An optional scene needs not be included in the same way that no one gives a crap if Cloud gives the flower to Marlene or Tifa (an optional gesture you earlier equated to the Highwind scene). You don't see SE waxing poetic about that scene. If SE, as you say, wanted whether or not Tifa and Cloud shared feelings to be optional, they would not point it out as often as they do and certainly not in the manner they do.

==============

And now mine

Okay, Anastar, bare with me, I can't seem to get my scanner working tonight, but I want to make this post. So for now, just a crappy image which will be a better one later. I think you don't quite get the context of one of the quotes I posted. Here's the page:

Like I said bare with me. What you're looking at is a story summary for FFVII from the 10th AU. It's a few pages long that gives brief descriptions of various scenes throughout the story.

Do you see the underline part? Right before that underline part it mentions that the team disperses and such, and then the next line is "Cloud and Tifa, who remain, reveal their feelings for each other and confirm them to match." With a number after it. That's what I circled and on the left, I circled it again to show this is what it's referencing. That there, is a screenshot of the HA scene.

NO WHERE on this page, in the summary or anywhere in the U10 does it say anything about Tifa's affections, or the LA scene. It's just straight up, "During the course of the story, this happens." with a picture of the HA scene, so we KNOW they're talking about romantic feelings in that quote.

Also the story summary shows Vincent and Yuffie in various scenes.

So now, my question to you is, if this is NOT saying the HA scene happened when it outright says it happened in a story summary... what is it saying? Again, there's nothing on the page about affection levels or "if this" and "if that." It's just flat out "when they leave, C and T reveal mutual romantic feelings." You yourself said if Square says a scene happened, it happened, and this is pretty much as clear as it gets for Square.

And Square has canonized scenes like this with story summaries before. (Stolen from Tres posts): Examples include Terra's revelation about love, FFV's Happy Ending, Tidus returning in X-2's ending (the U20 Scenario's story summary for that one even shows a screenshot of he and Yuna together along with a caption for it saying "Tidus is resurrected in the ending movie, in a connection to the very end of the previous work's ending"), and well this .

==============

I think I got everything that was important this time. Did I miss anything?

 

[Anastar]

Tres

The Ultimania Omega says Cloud's warm greeting to Yuffie when she returned to the airship the next morning was a result of the night he spent with Tifa (pg. 39).

In case no one remembers that exchange, here it is:

Cloud
Welcome back, Yuffie.
Yuffie
Gee, Cloud...... that's so nice of you to say that. ......You sick?

The UO quote is:

Yuffie is unaware that Cloud and Tifa had just spent the night together.

What in the low affection version would logically lend itself to Cloud being so chipper?

Let's start with the second quote:

Yuffie is unaware that Cloud and Tifa had just spent the night together.

This quote in and of itself means nothing, since Cloud and Tifa spend the night together in both the LA version and in the HA version. So saying that they spent the night together in and of itself holds no implications of romance.

As far as Cloud being "chipper" the next morning - yes, it could mean that he and Tifa confided their love to one another the night before. But is that the only possible reason Cloud could be feeling good?

Maybe Cloud's relieved that everyone came back. When he and Tifa first board the HW the next morning, they think they're alone. A journey into the Northern Crater will be easier with all of them, won't it? Maybe Cloud's relieved that they're finally heading for the Northern Crater, so they can finally get this confrontation with Sephiroth over with and free Holy. Or maybe Cloud's glad to finally have things resolved with Tifa, since they both made their feelings clear the night before.

===========

One Winged Demon

Tifa has a low affection rating for Cloud when Cloud doesn't show romantic interest in Tifa during the game. If Cloud doesn't show romantic interest in Tifa during the game, then he has no romantic interest in her. Therefore, their feelings are mutual.

Incorrect. Tifa having feelings for Cloud is not optional. Even if you claim Cloud's feelings are, Tifa's are not. They are repeatedly referenced in not only the game, but everywhere else. Hell, this is in the game manual before you even begin the game. And it is stated again and again that BOTH ladies have feelings for him.

[FFVII] Both Aerith, who is forthright, and Tifa, who is demure, have feelings for Cloud but he is none the wiser to them. - 10th Anniversary

Tifa's feelings are never optional. They are fact.
Therefore, it is impossible that Tifa is romantically disinterested, as you claim, which makes “mutual romantic disinterest” an impossibility.

If Tifa's feelings for Cloud are never optional, then Aerith's feelings for Cloud are never optional. According to your quote from the 10th AU, both Tifa and Aerith have feelings for Cloud. If we take the quote to mean what you want it to mean, then Aerith is definitely in love with Cloud, too.

Also, you've given one quote from the 10th AU where it says that Tifa must have feelings for Cloud, but I've given you TWO quotes where SE says that Tifa's feelings are optional:

Deviation - Two versions of the conversation before the final battle
Prior to the final battle, the contents of the conversation between Cloud and Tifa can change depending on the degree of Tifa's affection. If the degree of affection is high, the contents of the two's conversation will involve deep subject matter and strong feelings for each other. As well, the sight of the two seen by their companions the next morning will lead to an embarrassing scene for Tifa, and she blushes greatly. ~page 232, Final Fantasy 20th Anniversary Ultimania

Before the Final Battle (divergence):
After stopping Hojo from going amuck, the conversation with Tifa before they rush into the Northern Crater diverges into two conditions, according to Tifa's affection rating with Cloud. When it gets low, the conversation in the scene that they spend the night will be apathetic and ends short. Next morning in the cockpit, Tifa says “Were you listening?” and stamps on tiptoe. On the other hand, when degree gets higher, the conversation of the scene that they spend the night will have strong emotions. Next morning in the cockpit, Tifa will say “Were you watching?” and feels terribly shy. ~page 198, FFVII Ultimania Omega

In both of my quotes, SE says that Tifa's affection level for Cloud can change. Are you saying that your quote is more valid than my quotes?

I see, however, that you are also of the "Cloud rejects Tifa" school of thought. If Cloud rejects Tifa, then Tifa has feelings for Cloud, that he rejects. Therefore, once again, the feelings cannot be "mutual". You can't have it both ways, Anastar.

Did I say that Cloud rejects Tifa? Don't put words in my mouth, please.

And I'm going to reiterate:

[talking about Katou and Ikumori, event planner and movie designer of FFVII respectively]

Nomura: Now he’s the movie director on DC and CC.
Kitase: Katou also did the event on the airship, the night before the final battle.
Nojima: Oh, the scene with the risqué line of dialogue?

For Nojima, the Highwind scene is synonymous with “scene with risque dialogue”. That's how the staff know the scene under the Highwind before the final battle. That's the one that happened. That is the version they include in the summary of the game.

Why don't we look at what else they say in that passage?

Kitase: Katou also did the event on the airship, the night before the final battle.
Nojima: Oh, the scene with the risqué line of dialogue? It was Katou who wrote that as well, not me.
- The line "Words aren't the only way to talk someone how you feel", right? That was quite a mature conversation for a FF game.

Kitase: But I remember having to get another version that was too intense toned down.
Nojima: The original idea was more extreme. The plan was to have Cloud walk out of the Chocobo stable on board the Highwind, followed by Tifa leaving while checking around, but Kitase turned it down. But even with the line in question, maybe at that time none of us thought it would be something so important (laughs).

Why didn't they think that line was important at the time they wrote it if that scene was intended to canonize Cloti? Seems to me that a scene where Cloud's love interest is supposedly revealed would be considered "important".

Also, and I reiterize - IF SE wanted there to be no doubt that Cloud loves Tifa instead of Aerith, then why not make the HA scene non-optional? Why make two versions that convey different feelings?

An optional scene needs not be included in the same way that no one gives a crap if Cloud gives the flower to Marlene or Tifa (an optional gesture you earlier equated to the Highwind scene). You don't see SE waxing poetic about that scene. If SE, as you say, wanted whether or not Tifa and Cloud shared feelings to be optional, they would not point it out as often as they do and certainly not in the manner they do.

And once again, why say in both the 20th AU and in the FFVII UO that which version of the HW scene you get depends on Tifa's affection level with Cloud if there's only one way for Cloud and Tifa to feel about one another?

Why not have only one romantic version of the HW scene that's non-optional if it's supposed to canonize Cloti?

Why haven't we ever seen a non-optional show of love between Cloud and Tifa, where they kiss or say "I love you" or whatever? It would have been simple for SE to do that at the end of AC/ACC if they wanted to canonize Cloti, but instead - they show Cloud riding around flower fields that represent Aerith and imply that he actually meets her there in Calling since they show a flower on his desk at the end.

That ending for the movie sure looked to me like the love of Clerith was getting way more reinforcement than anything between Cloud and Tifa.

==========

Discord

Okay, Anastar, bare with me, I can't seem to get my scanner working tonight, but I want to make this post. So for now, just a crappy image which will be a better one later. I think you don't quite get the context of one of the quotes I posted. Here's the page:

(Note: yes, I got your picture... I just didn't copy it here)

Like I said bare with me. What you're looking at is a story summary for FFVII from the 10th AU. It's a few pages long that gives brief descriptions of various scenes throughout the story.

Do you see the underline part? Right before that underline part it mentions that the team disperses and such, and then the next line is "Cloud and Tifa, who remain, reveal their feelings for each other and confirm them to match." With a number after it. That's what I circled and on the left, I circled it again to show this is what it's referencing. That there, is a screenshot of the HA scene.

NO WHERE on this page, in the summary or anywhere in the U10 does it say anything about Tifa's affections, or the LA scene. It's just straight up, "During the course of the story, this happens." with a picture of the HA scene, so we KNOW they're talking about romantic feelings in that quote.

Also the story summary shows Vincent and Yuffie in various scenes.

So now, my question to you is, if this is NOT saying the HA scene happened when it outright says it happened in a story summary... what is it saying? Again, there's nothing on the page about affection levels or "if this" and "if that." It's just flat out "when they leave, C and T reveal mutual romantic feelings." You yourself said if Square says a scene happened, it happened, and this is pretty much as clear as it gets for Square.

And Square has canonized scenes like this with story summaries before. (Stolen from Tres posts): Examples include Terra's revelation about love, FFV's Happy Ending, Tidus returning in X-2's ending (the U20 Scenario's story summary for that one even shows a screenshot of he and Yuna together along with a caption for it saying "Tidus is resurrected in the ending movie, in a connection to the very end of the previous work's ending"), and well this

According to what you're saying, every time SE says "feelings", they're talking about romantic feelings and only romantic feelings. They can't mean anything else.

If that's true, then what does SE mean when they say that Cloud has undying feelings for Aerith?

Nomura: I believe, for those who formerly traveled with her as comrades and for the viewers, each carries their own feelings and loves for Aerith. In this story, Cloud also carries his own undying feeling for Aerith even to this very day. ~Nomura interview; Dengeki Playstation 2007

Once again, Nomura says that Cloud has feelings for Aerith. If SE never uses the term "feelings" to mean anything but romantic feelings, then Cloud has undying romantic feelings for Aerith.

So when SE says "feelings", can they mean feelings other than romantic feelings - or not?

Now, once again - if the HA HW scene is canon, and that's the reason SE uses only the HA HW scene picture in their story summaries, then how come SE also says in the 20th AU and the FFVII UO that the HA scene diverges into two conditions depending on Tifa's affection level with Cloud? Like I said to OWD - are your quotes more valid than my quotes?

And I said this to you on the CxA forum, but I should also mention it here. SE has confirmed that the Clerith date scene is default:

This is the payment she suggests when Cloud says that it'll cost her to hire him to be her bodyguard. This line shows the composed and mischievous side of her. It may be because of this promise that it's easier to have Aerith be the other party in Cloud's date when they're in the Gold Saucer. ~pg. 30, FFVII Ultimania Omega

1. In Aerith's case, if you play the game normally, the partner that generally comes will be Aerith.
2. In the gondola, the line "I'm searching for you" has deep meaning. (you understand, right?) ~FFVII Dismantled, page 189

(And no, I do not think that "default" means the same thing as "canon".) However, SE is willing to say on two different occasions when a scene is "default", so why aren't they willing to say even once when a scene is canon IF that scene is indeed canon?

And why, if the Clerith version is default, did SE use a picture of the Cloti date scene in the 10th AU in Cloud's profile? If, according to you, SE only uses pictures of canon/default versions, then they should have used a picture of the Clerith date scene.

Also, if SE only uses pictures of the HA version, then why did they use a picture that is of both the LA and HA versions on the FTOIL page of the 20th AU.

My last point: you asked me what would make me think the HA version (or any optional version) is canon. I told you that I would consider it canon if 1) one version is canonized by a later event - that is, something happens later which indicates that only one version could possibly have happened, or 2) if SE blatantly says that one version is canon.

So far, you haven't given me either.

 

[aerbear]

I'm joining in to help Anastar

Do you see the underline part? Right before that underline part it mentions that the team disperses and such, and then the next line is "Cloud and Tifa, who remain, reveal their feelings for each other and confirm them to match." With a number after it. That's what I circled and on the left, I circled it again to show this is what it's referencing. That there, is a screenshot of the HA scene.

NO WHERE on this page, in the summary or anywhere in the U10 does it say anything about Tifa's affections, or the LA scene. It's just straight up, "During the course of the story, this happens." with a picture of the HA scene, so we KNOW they're talking about romantic feelings in that quote.

This only proves that the HA Highwind scene is, in fact, a part of the script, and it is in the game. If it's a part of your playthrough is up to you and how much you use her in combat/affection levels, which are all based on player controlled variables.

So, yes, it's a part of the script. This doesn't make anything canon.

Not trying to be a Defcon 3 level douchebag , but a script of Final Fantasy VII showing one of two scenes wouldn't make it official or the intended outcome. Like Anastar has said, these scenes are open to interpretation and weren't made to make one relationship canon/better than the other.

Again, there's nothing on the page about affection levels or "if this" and "if that." It's just flat out "when they leave, C and T reveal mutual romantic feelings." You yourself said if Square says a scene happened, it happened, and this is pretty much as clear as it gets for Square.

Anastar pointed something out earlier - those scenes all have a clear canon outcome afterwards. We know it's canon that Tidus comes back because she is living with him three months after X-2 ends (International + Last Mission.) We know it's canon to have Yuffie and Vincent in your party because they are already members of AVALANCHE in OTWTAS.

The HA Highwind scene being a part of a script for FFVII only proves that, yes, it's there. But it isn't mentioned at all afterwards by any of the characters and it's only referenced in the Ultimanias/guide books as being a part of the game, which it is. There is no discernible impact that it had, therefore, it isn't unreasonable to question it. There is no concrete, irrefutable proof that the HA Highwind scene really happened, because nothing that ever happens afterwards that is canon depends on that scene being High Affection instead of Low Affection. It's just kind of.. there.

What in the low affection version would logically lend itself to Cloud being so chipper?

He still says, regardless of which affection version you get, "At least we know we won't go on alone." That sounds like a happy thought, as that would logically be a reason Cloud would be so "chipper."

If he doesn't feel alone, probably he will feel happy, regardless of if he has a girlfriend.

One Winged Demon Wrote:
Incorrect. Tifa having feelings for Cloud is not optional. Even if you claim Cloud's feelings are, Tifa's are not. They are repeatedly referenced in not only the game, but everywhere else. Hell, this is in the game manual before you even begin the game. And it is stated again and again that BOTH ladies have feelings for him.

[FFVII] Both Aerith, who is forthright, and Tifa, who is demure, have feelings for Cloud but he is none the wiser to them. - 10th Anniversary

I'd just like to note that THAT would prove the "Aerith only liked Cloud because of Zack" claim is wrong, because her feelings are compared to Tifa's, and everyone here is saying that Tifa has legitimate feelings for Cloud, so this must extend to Aerith too.

For Nojima, the Highwind scene is synonymous with “scene with risque dialogue”.

The Highwind scene is infamous for what Tifa says at the end and for it fading to black. He was just talking about it. He laughed. It was said that they weren't expecting that line to have the impact that it has made.

That's how the staff know the scene under the Highwind before the final battle. That's the one that happened. That is the version they include in the summary of the game.

An offhand comment about what the scene is known for means that's the one that happened?

Have you heard of Mass Effect? It's known that if you play as a dude, you can have a relationship with Miranda Lawson. I'm saying her specifically because she's the most well known person for a guy to be with in the second game. But this is also optional. Having a relationship with any other character is optional, being a girl in the game and having a relationship with any other character is optional (though it is default to play the game as a guy), or , even better, not having one at all is optional. When the people who make Mass Effect talk about the different relationships and what they're known for/what they mean, this makes them all canon?

There's no right or wrong way to play the game. There's no right or wrong way to play Final Fantasy. There's no right or wrong way to choose between Aerith and Tifa.

If you like Cloud with Tifa, that's okay; it isn't right or wrong. If you like Cloud with Aer Bear, that's okay; it isn't right or wrong. It's how you play the game. Final Fantasy is supposed to be personal. It isn't supposed to be the same for everybody. The "love triangle" is supposed to be player interpreted, and is also supposed to be personal because there is no right or wrong way to take it. If you don't like Cloud with Aerith or Tifa, if you like him with both, if you like him with neither, if you like him with Fenrir (that picture is awesome, haha), it's okay, because Cloud's feelings are all up to you. It's why Square Enix has been intentionally vague for almost 15 years.

It would only be a little weird to say Cloud loves Sephiroth, because he owns him about three times.

 

[Alessa Gillespie]

Have you heard of Mass Effect? It's known that if you play as a dude, you can have a relationship with Miranda Lawson. I'm saying her specifically because she's the most well known person for a guy to be with in the second game. But this is also optional. Having a relationship with any other character is optional, being a girl in the game and having a relationship with any other character is optional (though it is default to play the game as a guy), or , even better, not having one at all is optional. When the people who make Mass Effect talk about the different relationships and what they're known for/what they mean, this makes them all canon?

I played Mass Effect and I assumed that the canon relationship was with Liara given 1. the amount of time she put into finding Shepard's body 2. the fact she has a secondary quest in the second game that bolsters her importance to Shepard and enables her to have sex with Shepard, unlike the other two first game options and 3. because she's available as a dating option no matter the gender Shepard you play.

That said, I still like Garrus as a dating option more because the dude's a goddamn t-rex that can shoot a sniper rifle what's not awesome about that

and to conclude this with on-topic, I basically agree that even though there are optional ways to approach things, that doesn't change that some things are canon, and I feel the most emotionally fulfilling playthrough of FF7 means getting both Aerith's date and the high affection highwind scene

 

[Celes Chere]

Why haven't we ever seen a non-optional show of love between Cloud and Tifa

The lifestream sequence, and also when Cloud says everything will be okay with Tifa by his side and further goes on to say he means it 'different(ly) this time'. Tifa's also the woman that understands Cloud the most, they live together, have a family together, and Cloud is still dedicated to his promise to Tifa. They don't kiss or say "I love you", but neither do Cloud or Aerith. Cloud and Tifa shared mutual feelings whether you believe that the Highwind scene is optional or not. mutual feelings mean that they do love one another. Tifa has made her feelings extremely clear and if it's mutual it means that Cloud shares those feelings with her. Just because he comes back with flowers doesn't mean he actually MET Aerith or can even see Aerith anymore. I brought this up before, and someone else had mentioned the quote that Aerith is only watching over Cloud at the end during Calling. Though it implies he may be able to see her, that could be the reason why she was removed from the ending in ACC. Why was she removed in ACC? And why does Cloud still honoring Aerith's memory mean that he loves her? He honors Zack's death all the time too, does that mean he loves him?

That ending for the movie sure looked to me like the love of Clerith was getting way more reinforcement than anything between Cloud and Tifa.

How? Cloud's guilt has been lifted and he smiles at both Zack and Aerith as they leave the church. I'm not really seeing the romance.

 

[Dana Scully]

I played Mass Effect and I assumed that the canon relationship was with Liara given 1. the amount of time she put into finding Shepard's body 2. the fact she has a secondary quest in the second game that bolsters her importance to Shepard and enables her to have sex with Shepard, unlike the other two first game options and 3. because she's available as a dating option no matter the gender Shepard you play.

That said, I still like Garrus as a dating option more because the dude's a goddamn t-rex that can shoot a sniper rifle what's not awesome about that

I always saw Kaiden/Ashley as the 'natural' romance options, though I wouldn't go so far as to call them (or anyone else, for that matter) canon - though at the same time I would say that onesided Liara/Shepard is indeed canon because seriously look at the lengths she goes through for him/her in the comics. But anyways yes we all know Garrus is the best choice.

uhhhh on topic,

As far as I'm concerned in the context of the original game both Clerith and Cloti are canon (Aerith date, HA Highwind scene), but after that it's allll Cloti baby.

 

[aerbear]

Why was she removed in ACC? And why does Cloud still honoring Aerith's memory mean that he loves her? He honors Zack's death all the time too, does that mean he loves him?

Zack was his friend. I think he loves him. "Love" isn't just romantic. You can love your friends, family, dog, etc. It just means you care about someone a lot.

He cared about Aerith (and Tifa) a lot too, and the things he did make me believe he cares about her more than himself, so I think he loves her, but in a "romantic" way, I can't say for sure, because that's the part that's up to be interpreted how you yourself see it.

Aerith was removed from the ending of ACC so that we would know Cloud is still in the live action world.

"In keeping with the notion that Cloud is in the live action world in the end, we filmed the video for the ending credits in Hawaii. There are fields of flowers on both sides of the road, and the colors - yellow and white - are the same as the flowers in Aerith's church."

 

[aerbear]

That said, I still like Garrus as a dating option more because the dude's a goddamn t-rex that can shoot a sniper rifle what's not awesome about that

and to conclude this with on-topic, I basically agree that even though there are optional ways to approach things, that doesn't change that some things are canon, and I feel the most emotionally fulfilling playthrough of FF7 means getting both Aerith's date and the high affection highwind scene

Now this is reasonable, but a lot of people have taken to one side, so it may not be as fulfilling for everybody to get both if they prefer Cloud with one chick.

 

[Celes Chere]

Zack was his friend. I think he loves him. "Love" isn't just romantic. You can love your friends, family, dog, etc. It just means you care about someone a lot.

Then you agree that Cloud might not love Aerith? If I'm debating against mere speculation in this thread then I'll probably step out, lol. I want to see the other side of things too. Obviously - what is your interpretation then that makes Aerith out to be the one Cloud loves? Surely there is some sort of fact that made you believe that their type of love wasn't simply a friendship.

Aerith was removed from the ending of ACC so that we would know Cloud is still in the live action world.

Wait... not sure I understand what you mean by that. Can you explain??

In keeping with the notion that Cloud is in the live action world in the end, we filmed the video for the ending credits in Hawaii. There are fields of flowers on both sides of the road, and the colors - yellow and white - are the same as the flowers in Aerith's church."

That says nothing about why they removed Aerith from the credits, especially since she was only watching over him and he supposedly couldn't see her.

 

[aerbear]

Then you agree that Cloud might not love Aerith? If I'm debating against mere speculation in this thread then I'll probably step out, lol. I want to see the other side of things too. Obviously - what is your interpretation then that makes Aerith out to be the one Cloud loves? Surely there is some sort of fact that made you believe that their type of love wasn't simply a friendship.

Aww, I'm glad that you're willing to listen to our side of it ^.^
(By the way, I think someone on yours posted earlier in this thread something like "Final Fantasy VII from our perpective" and I read it, so I understand where you're coming from.)

I agree that Cloud might not love Aerith in a "romantic" way. But I myself think he does because, when I play the game, I see Aerith making him happy. When he brought Aerith home, technically his job "as bodyguard" was done, but he later still refers to himself as her bodyguard (in the Shinra building.) I can't think of why he did that other than because he still wanted to take care of her or wanted bigger payment (more than one date - hey, I'm sure even Cloud wants some occasionally ) But really, I saw them as being happy. I don't really care about the quotes/facts/books, because to be honest, I only care about Final Fantasy VII itself. All this spin-off crap is sort of milking the epic cow that is FFVII, and there are so many contradictions from the other games and books you could fill a tank. So I just say, screw it and enjoy it.

Wait... not sure I understand what you mean by that. Can you explain??

That says nothing about why they removed Aerith from the credits, especially since she was only watching over him and he supposedly couldn't see her.

Sorry. This was him talking about why they changed the ending credits, because people were confused about if Cloud was still in/around Midgar or if he was going to the Promised Land or Lifestream (where Aerith was) since it looked like he could have been riding his bike towards her.

 

[Celes Chere]

Aww, I'm glad that you're willing to listen to our side of it ^.^

Of course. I'm not really here to shoot down EVERY single opinion/idea that's different than mine. I am curious how people see the C/A pair because honestly, I don't. xD And I like C/A as a pairing, I just don't think it's canon and I prefer Cloti more. (obviously)

I agree that Cloud might not love Aerith in a "romantic" way. But I myself think he does because, when I play the game, I see Aerith making him happy. When he brought Aerith home, technically his job "as bodyguard" was done, but he later still refers to himself as her bodyguard (in the Shinra building.)

Aerith does make him happy, but she makes everyone happy. She has a huge impact on everyone, especially Cloud who she opened up to a bit more than others. And of course he refers to himself that way. xD That's what he agreed to, and the two of them become close friends. That sort of thing I don't see as romantic. Interesting though, that Cloud's promise to Tifa doesn't seem to mean much to some Clerith fans (not sure what you think) but his saying that he's Aerith's bodyguard means romance. Could you possibly explain the difference? <XD Well, if you're only looking at FFVII then yeah, it's hard to tell which pairing is the canon one. It's all up to interpretation in the game, but I do believe that based on facts and events that happen during VII, one pairing was hinted at towards more than the other. 'Course you already know my answer there. And I totally agree - you should enjoy whatever pairing you like.

Sorry. This was him talking about why they changed the ending credits, because people were confused about if Cloud was still in/around Midgar or if he was going to the Promised Land or Lifestream (where Aerith was) since it looked like he could have been riding his bike towards her.

I never got the impression that he was going to the 'promised land' from the ending. O_O If the flowers are still the embodiment of Aerith, isn't that still the same thing? The only thing gone is Aerith's figure. (A shame because I did like seeing her at the end)

 

[aerbear]

Of course. I'm not really here to shoot down EVERY single opinion/idea that's different than mine. I am curious how people see the C/A pair because honestly, I don't. xD And I like C/A as a pairing, I just don't think it's canon and I prefer Cloti more. (obviously)

Well that's cool.

And of course he refers to himself that way. xD That's what he agreed to, and the two of them become close friends. That sort of thingI don't see as romantic. Interesting though, that Cloud's promise to Tifa doesn't seem to mean much to some Clerith fans (not sure what you think)

I don't find either promise to be romantic, honestly haha. I just thought it was sweet of Cloud to stick around/let her stick around when he was generally such a douche.

I don't think his promise with Tifa is sweet or romantic or anything because she asks him to be her hero, and that was the first time they ever really spoke. She's supposed to be "shy", but I thought that was really ballsy, but also, I see Tifa as taking a sudden interest in Cloud in that scene to mean that she probably liked that he was going to join SOLDIER and could save her. I won't go do much into what I thought of it but it seems fake to me.

It's all up to interpretation in the game, but I do believe that based of facts and events that happen during VII, one pairing was hinted at towards more than the other.

When you line the facts up, both sides have been supported equally. I think the Cloud/Aerith hinting is just more subtle, probably because she's dead and at this point, it seems unrealistic.

"After discovering that Cait Sith's body is replaceable, he tells one last fortune about Cloud and Aerith's affinity. He says that 'Aerith's star and Cloud's star! They promise a great future!' After that, it will become a sad prediction if we get to know what happens afterward. Yet, if we catch the meaning of their 'future' from another angle, then we can see hope.....perhaps." - UO

I take this to mean that Cloud can still meet her in the Promised Land someday, like he said at the end. Cloud and Tifa can spend their whole lives together, doesn't really bother me (okay, that's a lie xD), but I think of that line as giving the people who support Cloud/Aerith hope about what Cloud said.

I never got the impression that he was going to the 'promised land' from the ending. O_O If the flowers are still the embodiment of Aerith, isn't that still the same thing? The only thing gone is Aerith's figure. (A shame because I did like seeing her at the end)

I don't know how people got that impression either, but oh well haha. I liked seeing her too.

 

[OneWingedDemon]

Did I say that Cloud rejects Tifa? Don't put words in my mouth, please.

I don't need to, you do it quite fine on your own. Unless this was another Anastar

While the Low Affection Highwind scene allows Cloud to blatantly reject Tifa's affection, there is no place in the game where Cloud can reject Aerith's affection. Therefore, while it is optional for Cloud to love Tifa, it is non-optional for Cloud to love Aerith. Even if he optionally falls in love with Tifa, too, he will continue to love Aerith.

I don't have the patience for your kind of flip-flopping. Sell this bullshit to someone else.

If Tifa's feelings for Cloud are never optional, then Aerith's feelings for Cloud are never optional

In other news the sky is blue and water is wet. Aeris wants to bone Cloud, Cloud just doesn't give a fuck. That's why it's a love triangle, because both ladies want in his pants. Hi, welcome to FFVII. Cloud's feelings are the ones in question.

but I've given you TWO quotes where SE says that Tifa's feelings are optional:

SE does not say Tifa's feelings are optional. It seems you have conveniently forgotten that the date mechanic can swing Cloud in FOUR directions, not one, not two. Four. However, you will find that there is no canonical, in-story reference to Barret's feelings for Cloud.


That's because the affection rating is only there for an element of interactivity and affects diddly squat of the actual story. This is why it's not CANON that Barret too can have feelings for Cloud. It's never mentioned outside the context of the date mechanics. Aeris and Tifa, however, are stated to in the actual story, you know, the one not controlled by the player (and then we find out Aeris' feelings are colored by Zack, but that's a story for another day).

Why didn't they think that line was important at the time they wrote it if that scene was intended to canonize Cloti? Seems to me that a scene where Cloud's love interest is supposedly revealed would be considered "important".

FFS, they are not saying the line isn't important. He's responding to the “that's quite mature for an FF game” comment. Stop fucking divorcing everything from context. Even with that risque line, they didn't think it would become a point of discussion in terms of how fucking mature it is. Especially in a game where they make mentions of beastiality, homosexuality, whorehouses, etc.


However, you have once again conveniently ignored the point. I'm going to repost:

Kitase: Katou also did the event on the airship, the night before the final battle.
Nojima: Oh, the scene with the risqué line of dialogue?

Explain to me why Nojima equates the EVENT that happened with only ONE version?
WHY IS THE HIGHWIND SCENE SYNONYMOUS WITH THE HA VERSION?
Stop trying to avoid it.

 

[aerbear]

That's because the affection rating is only there for an element of interactivity and affects diddly squat of the actual story.

The Highwind scene affects diddly squat of the actual story. ^.^

I don't have the patience for your kind of flip-flopping. Sell this bullshit to someone else.

In other news the sky is blue and water is wet.

Aeris wants to bone Cloud, Cloud just doesn't give a fuck. That's why it's a love triangle, because both ladies want in his pants.

Hi, welcome to FFVII.

Stop fucking divorcing everything from context. Even with that risque line, they didn't think it would become a point of discussion in terms of how fucking mature it is.

WHY IS THE HIGHWIND SCENE SYNONYMOUS WITH THE HA VERSION?

Who needs an Aer Bear hug?
http://www.godoon.com/productimg/full/FF/PL/FFPL9003.jpg

 

[Ryushikaze]

The Highwind scene affects diddly squat of the actual story. ^.^

No. It just happens to be one of the four most important scenes in said story according to Square.

Who needs an Aer Bear hug?
http://www.godoon.com/productimg/full/FF/PL/FFPL9003.jpg

Yeah, that doesn't actually address anything that OWD said. I know you're here to help Anastar, but you should help her by making cogent arguments, not asking people if they need hugs.

Anastar, calling an argument bullshit isn't slander, even under the colloquial usage. Even IF IT WERE, given how rude and self contradictory you have been in this thread, take your lumps.

Thirdly, I see your response to one of my points.
It's absolute nonsense, but I'll get to it by tomorrow. I've been sick today.
For the record, I DO expect that you eventually respond to my point by point rebuttal of the ENTIRE essay if you wish to continue in this thread. I had the courtesy and the wherewithal to do so. You could at least do the same.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

The Highwind scene affects diddly squat of the actual story. ^.^

It doesn't so much affect the story as it is part of it. Like recruiting Vincent, really. His presence doesn't really matter. He was still there for the actual story, though, despite how little he matters, and regardless of whether you picked him up when you went through Nibelheim.

 

[OneWingedDemon]

The Highwind scene affects diddly squat of the actual story. ^.^

Incorrect. It is a part of it and as a part of it, it plays a role and has a purpose. It is the payoff to an earlier set-up. It's basic storytelling.

Tifa's feelings are a part of the story and as such need to be addressed in the story. She loves Cloud. That's your set up. He either reciprocates or he does not, she either gets him or she doesn't. The answer to it, even if you feel that it plays no larger part in the story, is a vital part of Tifa's character arc. You can't just introduce her as Cloud's potential love interest and then never address it again. Because unlike Barret, who is completely an optional date for nothing more than shits and giggles, Tifa's feelings are written in stone. They are a part of the fucking story.

If you hold that Cloud doesn't reciprocate, then Tifa's love is unrequited. Regardless, there is nothing MUTUAL about it. No matter which way you slice it, you can't have something as ridiculous as "mutual disinterest".

 

[Master Bates]

^You forgot the word "romantic". It's "mutual romantic disinterest", or whatever that means.

 

[Celes Chere]

because she asks him to be her hero, and that was the first time they ever really spoke. She's supposed to be "shy", but I thought that was really ballsy, but also, I see Tifa as taking a sudden interest in Cloud in that scene to mean that she probably liked that he was going to join SOLDIER and could save her. I won't go do much into what I thought of it but it seems fake to me.

What's wrong with having a childhood dream? They were kids back then. Right, but do you remember what happened after Cloud left? She actually cared about him and searched for articles about him. During the Lifestream part of the game, it confirms this. Cloud's subconcious tells Tifa that Cloud will be 'so happy' to know that she cared back then. So, after being a child Tifa grew up and so did her ideals and views. People who think Tifa still has her ideas as a *child* when she specifically states: "Nothing else matters now, just Cloud" in the game.. not to be mean, but it kinda annoys me. Not implying you yourself feel that way. It never seemed fake to me, because it really meant a lot to Cloud and he always tried to make her happy and live up to that promise. It was important to Tifa too as children, and as they are currently.

Cait Sith

Cait Sith is a robot controlled by Reeve whose predictions are claimed to often be false. If Aerith had lived, there's no saying they would be married or would connect romantically. Cait Sith's prediction is merely foreshadowing of Aerith's death at that point.

The Highwind scene affects diddly squat of the actual story. ^.^

Except if you don't get it, it doesn't make sense with the rest of the compilation. That is the only scene where they share mutual feelings (besides the Lifestream scene, but that's different) so the LA version makes no sense while reading the Ultimania.

calling an argument bullshit isn't slander

I'd be offended if someone called my argument bullshit, just sayin'. Also, the rules of the LTD are different... aren't we supposed to be civil here? I mean I don't find what OWD said to be too harsh, but I'm used to this in the LTD I take it with a grain of salt. XD Others may not.

 

[OneWingedDemon]

the "bullshit" was directed at her lying and flip-flopping.
If you want me to be civil, try not lying to my face and saying I put words you typed and posted on a public forum in yo mouth

It's a fucking insult. I took the time to respond to it. Don't turn around and tell me it wasn't there.
I've been pretty civil I think.

 

[Ryushikaze]

I'd be offended if someone called my argument bullshit, just sayin'. Also, the rules of the LTD are different... aren't we supposed to be civil here? I mean I don't find what OWD said to be too harsh, but I'm used to this in the LTD I take it with a grain of salt. XD Others may not.

You'd be upset. It still wouldn't be slander.
And if an argument can be shown to be bullshit, calling it such is merely the truth.