The Love Triangle Debate thread of KNEEL BEFORE ZOD OR SUFFER HIS WRATH (ignore the opening posts at your peril) (Round 6)

Status
Not open for further replies.

Vendel

Banned
The LA version makes more sense to me because it shows they have no romantic interest in each other. It's not that they hate one another - they just have no romantic interest in each other.

Even if for some reason you don't think Cloud has romantic interest in Tifa, how in the heck can you say Tifa doesn't have interest in Cloud?

Why would she ask a sleeping Cloud if he loved her in CoT? Why is Tifa worried about their relationship instead of their friendship?

I see that as making more sense because I never see Cloud displaying romantic interest in Tifa after the HW scene (or during or before, for that matter). They seem to be living together as friends, rather than as lovers.

You keep saying "I don't see it with C/T" and "I do see it with C/A". Did it never occur to you that it's because that is what you want to see?

That's supported by things such as Tifa in CoT saying that the family is made up of friends,

I addressed this pages ago but let me repeat myself.

FFS Tifa does not see Cloud and Marlene (and later Denzel) as a "family of friends". I don't know what is so hard to figure out that as Barret is leaving Tifa is reminiscing about how she had always managed to get by. She got by with a little help from her friends (AVALANCHE). This is her friends you could call a family (similar to her Dissidia profile). And at that moment the last one was leaving. And what was left is what would be the start of the 7th heaven family. Or the "real family" Tifa is so worried about throughout CoT and AC. The one that is mentioned multiple times in the Ultimania.



Marlene in CoT being the one to invite Cloud into the family,

I don't think it's Marlene's decision to make.

a JP magazine article saying that Cloud and Tifa were "more than friends, less than lovers" (http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff97/Alexa024/Morethanfriendslessthanlovers-2.png),

So what? Some random Japanese magazine article has exactly zero bearing on the story.

Cloud and Tifa having separate bedrooms,

If they have separate bedrooms we haven't seen them. We have seen the children's room and Cloud's office.

CoT saying that Tifa always slept with Marlene before Denzel moved in, etc. I could go on, but I think that's enough to give the idea.

Except this statement was made the night before Barret left. Which is one week after 7th heaven opens. Denzel doesn't arrive on the scene until many months later.

So all this tells us is that until the time Barret left Marlene was sleeping with Tifa. It doesn't tell us when this stopped.

In order for it to be confirmed that Cloud loves Tifa, then we have to see a scene after the optional HW scene that shows for sure that Cloud loves her. For example, the two of them kissing, or Cloud saying "I love you" to Tifa, for example. Nothing like that ever happens, so we don't know for sure that he loves her.

Yet you are sure he loves Aerith? And for most people declaring that you will be with that person for the rest of your life and even starting a family with them might be a hint.

I can't think of a single thing that happens after the HW scene in FFVII, during the novella's, during AC/ACC, or during DoC that can only be explained as evidence that Cloud loves Tifa. For example, Cloud living with Tifa can easily be explained as them living together as friends. Living with each other in and of itself does not mean that Cloud loves Tifa.

You "not seeing" any C/T romance is pretty meaningless at this point. You have made it clear that you will never see anything between C/T.

And if C/T being together was so easily explained away why do you spend so much time on it? And why does the fact that you have to explain it away not bother you?

2) Second, if Cloud meant that romantically, then how come Barret comes along with them? Seems to me that Cloud and Tifa would go off on their own if they had romantic intentions.

Again I addressed this already, but Cloud deciding to be with Tifa was a decision that was made before any of them figured out what they were going to do.

And I don't even know what to say about your utterly arbitrary "romantic intentions" statement. Somehow I get the feeling that you think if it were Aertih they would have just run off to be super happy somewhere while the world went to shit around them. Gaia post FFVII is a crapsack world where most people are just struggling to get to the next day. And Cloud and Tifa have decided to be together no matter what at this point. That shows plenty of intent right there. Not running off like idiots.





I think it's strange that the translation is so different. As far as I remember, the translation at http://ffviinovels.lhyeung.net/ was updated with the revised edition.

I wonder if it was from the German translation and omitted lines like "wears the pants" if you would love it?

3) How does mutual disinterest lead to the two of them deciding to form a family together?
You left an important word out. The phrase should be "mutual romantic disinterest". Having no romantic interest in each other doesn't mean that they aren't friends. Shrouded (a good friend of mine at the CxA forums) and I have no romantic interest in each other, but I consider us good friends. If he had no place to stay and he was in my area, he'd be welcome to live in my house in the guest bedroom for as long as he wanted.

Because a friend staying over is exactly the same a Cloud and Tifa's situation right?

Also, what if shrouded brought home a kid for you to raise?

5) raising children together
- Where does it say they decided to raise children together? Does Cloud ever say to Tifa that he wants to have kids with her,

Well he does bring a stray home.....

or does Tifa say that to Cloud?

They keep the stray......

As I remember, Barret asked them to take care of Marlene when he left Marlene with them. It wasn't really their choice.

Two years later they are not exactly trying to get rid of her.

Then Cloud brought Denzel to the Seventh Heaven because he thought Aerith brought Denzel to him. He wanted to take care of Denzel because Aerith brought Denzel to him, not because he wanted to raise kids with Tifa.

It doesn't really matter how or why Denzel got there. In the end they do decide to raise him. He becomes the 4th member of the family.

Also Cloud agrees with Tifa that Denzel was brought to them.

Or it could mean either one, since there's a page reference at the top of the HW picture for page 232, where it specifies that there are two versions of the scene. Also, IIRC, the picture on the FTOIL page is found in both the LA and HA versions.

In addition, there's also a picture of Cloud and Aerith on the FTOIL page. The HW scene picture and the Clerith Date picture are the ONLY pictures on the page that are said to have deviations (according to a Clerith translator). FFVII is the only game on the page with two pictures showing Cloud with different women. That makes it pretty clear that there's two possible love interests. Since both are specified as optional, then it's also pretty obvious that the love interest is left up to player choice.

I am still waiting for what it says about Aerith.

I see no reason to comment on the quotes that show no feelings, since it just reinforces what I was saying before. When no feelings are specified, it could easily be talking about either the LA or HA version.

Because "reveal feelings for each other and live together" is just loaded with ambiguity right?

Once again, SE has clearly said that the Clerith date scene is default (and no, I don't think "default" and "canon" necessarily mean the same thing). If they're willing to say that the Clerith date scene is default, then it looks like they'd be willing to say that the HW scene has a canon version IF it really did have a canon version.

I'm not sure what these points have to do with each other.

What I think is obvious is that SE chose to make a demonstration of romance optional. If Cloti was supposed to be canon, then SE could easily have made the High Affection version non-optional. But SE wanted there to be an alternative. Cloud is able to show romantic interest in Tifa, but he doesn't have to. Therefore, romantic feelings for Tifa are optional.

The lifestream event is optional?

Apparently, SE didn't want to create a non-optional scene where Cloud says he loves Tifa. That must mean that SE wanted to leave Cloud's love interest up to player choice.

By killing one of the girls halfway through the game and have him be with the other one by the end of the game? Those sly dogs.
 

Dashell

SMILE!
AKA
Sonique, Quexinos, Pinkie Pie, Derpy Hooves
Chantara said:
Let's start with the second quote:

Yuffie is unaware that Cloud and Tifa had just spent the night together.

This quote in and of itself means nothing, since Cloud and Tifa spend the night together in both the LA version and in the HA version. So saying that they spent the night together in and of itself holds no implications of romance.

As far as Cloud being "chipper" the next morning - yes, it could mean that he and Tifa confided their love to one another the night before. But is that the only possible reason Cloud could be feeling good?

Maybe Cloud's relieved that everyone came back. When he and Tifa first board the HW the next morning, they think they're alone. A journey into the Northern Crater will be easier with all of them, won't it? Maybe Cloud's relieved that they're finally heading for the Northern Crater, so they can finally get this confrontation with Sephiroth over with and free Holy. Or maybe Cloud's glad to finally have things resolved with Tifa, since they both made their feelings clear the night before.
I'll respond to this since I don't think Tres has the time. You seem to be under the impression that those two quotes aren't connected, but they are. Here is a screenshot, with a translation from the UO where this is shown. (AND BEFORE ANYONE SAYS ANYTHING, THE THIRD ONE IS SUPPOSED TO BE FROM CLOUD :awesome:)

uotrasnlateyuffie.jpg


クラウドの提案で、 自分が戦う理由を確かめるため、 いったん飛空艇を降りる。
翌朝もどり、 仲間とともに北の大空洞へ発つ 。

She confirms her reason for fighting at Cloud's suggestion, and temporarily disembarks the Airship. She returns the next morning together with her friends and departs for the Northern Crater.

飛空艇にもどった自分を優しく迎えるクラウドに

She returned to the airship to receive a tender greeting from Cloud.

クラウドやさしいねえ。なんかあった?
'Gee, Cloud...... that's so nice of you to say that. ......You sick?'

ユフィは知らないが、直前にクラウドはティファとふたりきりの夜を過ごしたばかり。さすが、女のカンは鋭い ?
Yuffie is unaware that Cloud and Tifa had just spent the night together.

Yuffie noticing Cloud is chipper, and the quote that she is unaware that they spent the night together are clearly related. So, what in the low affection happened that has Cloud so happy? Is it resolving things with Tifa? Well then, I would also like to know what happened in the low affection version that Tifa is so embarrassed about the next day. What's so bad about saying you want to be friends?


Chantara said:
According to what you're saying, every time SE says "feelings", they're talking about romantic feelings and only romantic feelings. They can't mean anything else.


Okay let's go over stuff I said earlier, shall we?

Quotes that don't say which feelings:

1. (FFVIIUO, pg. 15)
"Declares that the team should dissolve in the final hours before the final battle, and communicates his feelings together with Tifa, who remains behind at the airship with him."

2. (FFVIIUO, pg. 27)
"When Cloud proposes that the group separates temporarily, she remains behind at the airship and communicates her feelings together with Cloud. "

3. (FFVIIUO, pg. 198)
"When their companions disperse to the places where people important to them await, Cloud and Tifa are the only two to remain behind. They reveal their mutual feelings in their final hours, and......."

4. (CCU, pg. 33)
"She communicates her feelings together with Cloud in the final stages of the story, and in AC and DC they live together."

So HALF of the quotes posted talk about romantic feelings no ifs ands or buts. That's a lot if you ask me. So which makes more sense. That half the quotes are speaking of some feelings we don't know, or that they are all talking about the same thing?

Where did I say ANYWHERE that "EVERY time SE says feelings, they're talking about love :awesome:"

I'm pretty sure I didn't :monster:

My point:
Which makes more sense. All these quotes reference the same thing, or some do and some don't?

Chantara said:
Now, once again - if the HA HW scene is canon, and that's the reason SE uses only the HA HW scene picture in their story summaries, then how come SE also says in the 20th AU and the FFVII UO that the HA scene diverges into two conditions depending on Tifa's affection level with Cloud? Like I said to OWD - are your quotes more valid than my quotes?

aer bear said:
This only proves that the HA Highwind scene is, in fact, a part of the script, and it is in the game. If it's a part of your playthrough is up to you and how much you use her in combat/affection levels, which are all based on player controlled variables.

So, yes, it's a part of the script. This doesn't make anything canon.

Not trying to be a Defcon 3 level douchebag , but a script of Final Fantasy VII showing one of two scenes wouldn't make it official or the intended outcome. Like Anastar has said, these scenes are open to interpretation and weren't made to make one relationship canon/better than the other.

It's not a script though. It's a summary of the events of FFVII. So basically when Square says "This happened in the story." according to you it might not have happened? So what's the point of the story playbacks then if they have information that isn't accurate? (and I'm talking JUST about the 10th AU, none of the others.)

Because that's basically what it comes down to. You're saying what's written in the 10th AU storyline (and I'm just talking about the 10th AU storyline) isn't accurate. If it's not accurate, can we take anything from the 10th AU playbacks as accurate?

The place where he awakens---
That is Cloud's Promised Land

As he sleeps, Cloud hears two voices. The voices of two people very dear to him, who are no longer with him. Playfully and kindly, they give him a message: he doesn't belong here yet.

When he awakes, there was his friends. There were the children, freed from their fatal illness. Tifa and Marlene, and Denzel asking for Cloud to heal his Geostigma-- his family were waiting. Engulfed in celebration, he realizes where he is meant to live. He realizes that he was able to forgive himself.

And when he turns around--- "she" is starting to leave. Together with the friend who had given Cloud his life. Cloud no longer has to suffer in loneliness... And so they too go back to where they belong.

Back to the current of life flowing around the planet

~FFVII 10th Anniversary Ultimania (Revised Edition) AC Playback

Is that quote accurate?

How about this one:

Aerith, who is pursued by ShinRa for her ability to hear the voice of the planet. Cloud’s meeting with her lead him on a new path.

If one quote from the book isn't accurate, then how do we know what IS accurate?


SE has confirmed that the Clerith date scene is default:
I think this argument would hold more water if they said "This scene is canon" about something and not something was default.

And why, if the Clerith version is default, did SE use a picture of the Cloti date scene in the 10th AU in Cloud's profile? If, according to you, SE only uses pictures of canon/default versions, then they should have used a picture of the Clerith date scene.

Can you please point out where I said this? I don't believe I said that Square only uses canon/default scenes for pictures. I said in the story playbacks that they always use Aerith's date and the HA scene, but that's very different from what you're saying I said.


Aer Bear said:
The HA Highwind scene being a part of a script for FFVII only proves that, yes, it's there. But it isn't mentioned at all afterwards by any of the characters and it's only referenced in the Ultimanias/guide books as being a part of the game, which it is. There is no discernible impact that it had, therefore, it isn't unreasonable to question it. There is no concrete, irrefutable proof that the HA Highwind scene really happened, because nothing that ever happens afterwards that is canon depends on that scene being High Affection instead of Low Affection. It's just kind of.. there.

Well that's a well thought out answer, but I want to point out that in the 10th AU playback, it's not a script, it's a summary of the story. IN that summary they only mention the high affection version. hell in the BOOK they only mention the high affection :monster: It seems that Square at the very least favors the HA version. You'd agree with that right? Why do you think this is?
 
Last edited:

Elisa Maza

Whomst
The Highwind scene affects diddly squat of the actual story. ^.^

Who needs an Aer Bear hug? :awesome:
http://www.godoon.com/productimg/full/FF/PL/FFPL9003.jpg

I call troll, or at least someone with trolling intentions in this post.



Also, I want someone to answer me this: What does it say about Cloud that he lives with the woman he knows she has romantic feelings for him, while he masturbates over the memory a dead woman? Personally, I think it makes him the biggest douche in fictional history. But I'm a CloTi, someone who doesn't believe that people can love someone after death, so what do I know?

Flaws and all, Cloud is still supposed to be Squeenix protagonist material. What I described above and what the Clerith side claims him to be (don't give me that "There's no canon couple!" nonsense, because you don't believe it either), is completely the opposite.

The Highwind scene is important to many subplots of the bigger plot of FFVII. The creators said it's important. The Ultimanias say it's important. It's where the hero and the heroine find out what they're fighting for: each other. In the previous scene, this is the reason why AVALANCHE is dispatched, to find their reasons for fighting. Cloud names various reasons for fighting, on the top of them "a very important, personal memory". Tifa is the only person that is associated with a "very personal memory", that is also "tender".

Connecting the dots. Do it right.

Do you know which scene that deals with the romantic subplot doesn't mean squat to the story? THE DATE.

You have the option of Barret ffs. As if the Ultimania page "for the one I love" was necessary in the first place, this option alone screams that the date is in the story just for shits and giggles.

You can get Barret to a date. You can get Yuffies and she'll kiss Cloud. But, no matter, Cloud will always go for Tifa.
 

Dashell

SMILE!
AKA
Sonique, Quexinos, Pinkie Pie, Derpy Hooves
you okay there Tea-chan? :awesome:

Also, I want someone to answer me this: What does it say about Cloud that he lives with the woman he knows she has romantic feelings for him, while he masturbates over the memory a dead woman? Personally, I think it makes him the biggest douche in fictional history. But I'm a CloTi, someone who doesn't believe that people can love someone after death, so what do I know?

Well keeping with the mutual romantic disinterest or whatever, at least in that case they decided to be just friends ... I think...

What does it say about Cloud and Aerith? Just curious.

I wish I could thank this more than once :monster:
I would also like to know why the question mark gets left out all the time.
 

Master Bates

Do you enjoy your life?
AKA
Mr. Koiwai
What does it say about Cloud and Aerith? Just curious.

I can't open the link but I am guessing (with fair certainty) this is a page from that one Japanese magazine where Cloud and Tifa's arrow has, "more than, less than lovers?", and Aerith's has... well, "Aerith?", from what I remember of that scan.

Well, if I am correct, then nothing really. Nothing is said about Cloud and Aerith since the scan isn't even certain if the girl in pink is Aerith.
 

Elisa Maza

Whomst
you okay there Tea-chan? :awesome:

Don't make me use a macro on you...


Well keeping with the mutual romantic disinterest or whatever, at least in that case they decided to be just friends ... I think...

...


Because... SOMEHOW, Tifa became disinterest in Cloud throughout the FFVII story, even though in the Lifestream sequence she learned how important she is to him?

This makes zero sense from the plot perspective.

Or any perspective.

I wish I could thank this more than once :monster:
I would also like to know why the question mark gets left out all the time.

Because reasons. Also, selective quoting.


Finally, magazine. Since when an editor who might have never seen/played/heard about the game has any bearing in this debate? Or, in any interpretation of the events?

That was a rhetorical question.

P.S. Hmmm... the link doesn't work for me. Anyone else having the same problem? (Even though I know which picture this is)
 
Claim: Though Cloud was just once in Tifas room (or maybe he wasn't at all, it doesn't seem to be clarified to hundred percent), this doesn't mean that Tifa didn't let him into her room.
True. I think I mixed two aspects up. The first that Cloud never went to her room which was more or less disproven, so I agree that he was maybe once there.
The second was when Cloud wanted to come into Tifas room when most of her friends were with her, too, and she forbid him to come in when they asked her if he might want to come in. So I thought if she didn't permit Cloud to come into her room one time, then she might have forbid him the other times, too.

Claim: Tifa's family is not simply made of friends.
Wasn't it said that her family consists of friends/comrades who bear the same wounds as her? Or, to say it differently - was it ever said that her family was a romantic one or that there was a family different from her "friends-who-are-like-family"-family?


Besides, I would also like to know what is said at the japanese magazine page (where it's said that Cloud and Tifa are "more as friends, less than lovers").
Wasn't there some text in brackets with a question mark beneath?
I don't think the magazine is seen to be canon but wouldn't SE say that the magazine reported something untrue if they saw it? Since Nomura is seen to be picky when it comes to "canon" and "uncanon" thingies... Well, I never heard of that page, so I'm a little curious... ^^
 

Vendel

Banned
Claim: Tifa's family is not simply made of friends.
Wasn't it said that her family consists of friends/comrades who bear the same wounds as her? Or, to say it differently - was it ever said that her family was a romantic one or that there was a family different from her "friends-who-are-like-family"-family?

*sigh*

FFS Tifa does not see Cloud and Marlene (and later Denzel) as a "family of friends". I don't know what is so hard to figure out that as Barret is leaving Tifa is reminiscing about how she had always managed to get by. She got by with a little help from her friends (AVALANCHE). This is her friends you could call a family (similar to her Dissidia profile). And at that moment the last one was leaving. And what was left is what would be the start of the 7th heaven family. Or the "real family" Tifa is so worried about throughout CoT and AC. The one that is mentioned multiple times in the Ultimania.

Also take special note of just this one quote (there are many others)

Cloud's profile 10th anv ulti said:
With the support of former allies and Tifa, an important woman to him and now also part of his family, Cloud regains the courage to move forward.

There are two groups here. Tifa who is a part of his family. And EVERYONE ELSE.

Besides, I would also like to know what is said at the japanese magazine page (where it's said that Cloud and Tifa are "more as friends, less than lovers").
Wasn't there some text in brackets with a question mark beneath?
I don't think the magazine is seen to be canon but wouldn't SE say that the magazine reported something untrue if they saw it? Since Nomura is seen to be picky when it comes to "canon" and "uncanon" thingies... Well, I never heard of that page, so I'm a little curious... ^^

Why the fuck would SE care if some game magazine got something wrong while speculating before the movie came out?
 

ClerithRaven

DIE-HARD CLERITH
AKA
Ren, ClerithRaven, Lunafresca's Raven
True. I think I mixed two aspects up. The first that Cloud never went to her room which was more or less disproven, so I agree that he was maybe once there.
The second was when Cloud wanted to come into Tifas room when most of her friends were with her, too, and she forbid him to come in when they asked her if he might want to come in. So I thought if she didn't permit Cloud to come into her room one time, then she might have forbid him the other times, too.

If it were me, it wouldn't be just for one time. :D

Anyways... Did Cloud really ask Tifa if he could go into her room? Or was it just her friends asking a could-be situation?

Just dropping in for this time.. :p
 

Kobato

Pro Adventurer
Cloud wanted to come into Tifas room when most of her friends were with her, too, and she forbid him to come in when they asked her if he might want to come in.

^ Whooa, when did that happen ? :/ When did Tifa forbid Cloud to come into her room ? At that time Tifa's mother had just died, and she was upset over her mum's death. Also, she was crying on the floor at the time, and she was too upset to focus on anything else.

Claim: Tifa's family is not simply made of friends.
Wasn't it said that her family consists of friends/comrades who bear the same wounds as her? Or, to say it differently - was it ever said that her family was a romantic one or that there was a family different from her "friends-who-are-like-family"-family?

Well there's Cloud who she loves dearly, Marlene and Denzel who Cloud and Tifa love very much like their own children. (: She doesn't love Cloud as a friend, and Cloud doesn't love Tifa as a friend either, as they shared mutual feelings of love underneath the Highwind.

Besides, I would also like to know what is said at the japanese magazine page (where it's said that Cloud and Tifa are "more as friends, less than lovers").
Wasn't there some text in brackets with a question mark beneath?

I won't reply to this, because I know that Quex will reply with something better (:

I don't think the magazine is seen to be canon but wouldn't SE say that the magazine reported something untrue if they saw it? Since Nomura is seen to be picky when it comes to "canon" and "uncanon" thingies... Well, I never heard of that page, so I'm a little curious... ^^

Nomura didn't seem picky making Ingus/ Serah, Cecil/ Rosa, Squall/ Rinoa and more canon.

 

ClerithRaven

DIE-HARD CLERITH
AKA
Ren, ClerithRaven, Lunafresca's Raven
Whoa... I just realized...

Misty, you were Cloud/Fionna... and Pinker on the Forums...

WHOA...
 

Tina Armstrong

Rockstar
AKA
Fackbito, RedGloves, Eileen Galvin, Saria, Lady Croft
Misty, I'm confused right now. Are you supporting both pairings?
A couple of pages ago you were calling yourself a Clerith.
I just want you to make that clear for me. :)

Anyway, why would Tifa see Cloud as just her friend? She loves him in a romantic way.
And why would she see Marlene as her friend? She even introduces Marlene as her daughter to other people. And I don't even need to mention Denzel.. Ugh.
 

ClerithRaven

DIE-HARD CLERITH
AKA
Ren, ClerithRaven, Lunafresca's Raven
Misty, I'm confused right now. Are you supporting both pairings?
A couple of pages ago you were calling yourself a Clerith.
I just want you to make that clear for me. :)

She's on the Cloti side now. :)

And why would she see Marlene as her friend? She even introduces Marlene as her daughter to other people.

This kind of makes it seem like Tifa and Barret are the mother and father to Marlene. Since, we already know that Barret is now Marlene's father.

Just saying... :D
 

Marle

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Ava, Spike Spiegel, Stella Nox Fleuret, Altair Ibn-La'Ahad, Princess Zelda, Alice, Raven Roth, Faye Valentine, Tifa Lockhart, Khal Drogo
This kind of makes it seem like Tifa and Barret are the mother and father to Marlene. Since, we already know that Barret is now Marlene's father.

Just saying... :D

Am I the only one who gets the vibe that when Barret and Tifa are claimed to be the parents, this indicates they're lovers? It's probably why it sounds so wrong to me...it's like Tifa's just being lumped with Barret for the convenience of getting her out of the way. And bothers me a lot.

Don't know if that's your intention or belief, CR and I'm not trying to say it is. It's just what I get everytime I see this claim. :T
 

Tina Armstrong

Rockstar
AKA
Fackbito, RedGloves, Eileen Galvin, Saria, Lady Croft
She's on the Cloti side now. :)
Hmm, I see..

This kind of makes it seem like Tifa and Barret are the mother and father to Marlene. Since, we already know that Barret is now Marlene's father.

Just saying... :D
Well, yeah. But it's still Cloud and Tifa who takes care of her.
But I mean.. who would fit the mother role better than Tifa?
 

Fairheartstrife

[no fucks given]
AKA
FHS, that cloti bitch
She's on the Cloti side now. :)

I would just like to point out that a person can believe Cloti is canon and still 'ship CxA. The point of this thread never was, and hopefully never will be, to get someone to alter their personal shipping preferences, but it is, to discuss the LTD canon outcome, which there is overwhelming evidence to officially declare supplied within the compilation narrative.

Having said that, I shall now do a celebratory victory laugh that Misty has joined the dark side!! :muhaha:
 

Ryushikaze

Deus Admiral Parsimonious, PHD, DDS, MD, JD, OBE
AKA
Tim, Ryu
I will highlight anything in red that I consider slander.

What you consider slander is what they, I'm sure, would consider calling a spade a spade.

Nope - that's where you're wrong. We know that Shadow's death scene has a canon outcome because we see Shadow alive at a later time. There's never a scene showing that Cloud loves Tifa after the HW scene, so it's never confirmed.

An interesting standard. But your alternate proposition given below- mutual romantic disinterest- is definitely contradicted by later scenes. And everything we've been told.

Shadow not dying in that optional scene is confirmed because we see him again later - alive. That confirms that he didn't die.

It's confirmed that a player gets Yuffie and Vincent in FFVII because they appear in AC/ACC and DoC.

In order for it to be confirmed that Cloud loves Tifa, then we have to see a scene after the optional HW scene that shows for sure that Cloud loves her. For example, the two of them kissing, or Cloud saying "I love you" to Tifa, for example. Nothing like that ever happens, so we don't know for sure that he loves her.

So, he can't decide he wants to have Tifa by his side, form a family with her, have a future with her, or any of that?
He has to kiss her to demonstrate he loves her?
Question- why is Aerith exempt from this? Cloud does not kiss her ever, so why can you conclude (granting for the sake of the argument at this point that he loved her as one time) he loves her post-mortem? Would this be a double standard, Anastar?

I can't think of a single thing that happens after the HW scene in FFVII, during the novella's, during AC/ACC, or during DoC that can only be explained as evidence that Cloud loves Tifa. For example, Cloud living with Tifa can easily be explained as them living together as friends. Living with each other in and of itself does not mean that Cloud loves Tifa.

Try looking at evidence in aggregate. No evidence exists in isolation. It all forms a coherent web. Expecting a single silver bullet 'proof' from your opposition is silly. It's literally what fundamentalist creationists do.

And actually, I did answer that. In one post (I believe it was the one I didn't finish answering to Tres) I said something to this effect:

I'm not saying that the Low Affection version happened, but that either version could have happened. Nothing happens in the story that proves Cloud is in love with Tifa vs. Cloud is only friends with her. Cloud could still move in with her and Barret as a friend, Cloud could still start a family of friends with her, Cloud could still bring Denzel home if he was only friends with her, Cloud could still get Geostigma if he was only friends with Tifa, Cloud could still move into Aerith's Church if he was only friends with Tifa, etc. There's nothing that could happen ONLY if Cloud was in love with Tifa instead of being just friends with her.

This argument- weak as it is- cuts both ways. Just remember that. Remember, never offer as an argument anything you don't want used against your position.

That's the point. If something happened that proved they are in love, okay - then I'd buy that the High Affection scene is canon. But everything that happens could also happen if they are just friends. So either version could have happened.

It can't. Actually. And one of the quotes you keep mangling actually kinda proves it can't.

Either 1) something happens in the game which confirms it, or 2) it is blatantly stated by SE.

BTW, I do not think it was blatantly stated by SE on the FTOIL page in the 20th AU. To me, it was blatantly stated that there are optional versions of the HW scene and that a player can choose for Cloud to love either Aerith or Tifa.

No. The FTOIL page 'blatantly states' that Cloud and Tifa confirm mutual romantic feelings without words. P232 says there are two versions, and in one feelings are shared strongly. p232 also says, as a point of the story itself, that Cloud and Tifa confirm mutual feelings for each other without words. The High Highwind scene is listed as one of the most important scenes of FFVII.
If that's not 'blatantly stating' that it happened, we're moving into the 'press release' mentality I mock every so often.


Now we're to the part that you quoted from me. I see that you've decided to answer each quote piecemeal, rather than consider a greater context.

1) This time he will have Tifa by his side
Let's look at that passage:

Meanwhile, Cloud was sitting next to her gazing at the same scenery but was smiling peacefully. It was a smile that she hadn't seen before during their journey. Cloud noticed her gaze and asked, "What's wrong?"
"Cloud, you're smiling."
"I am?"
"Yeah."
"Everything starts now. A new..." Cloud looked for the right words, "A new life."
"I'm going to live. I think that's the only way I can be forgiven. We've been through... all sorts of things."
"I guess you're right..."
"But when I think about how many times I've thought about starting a new life, it's funny."
"Why?"
"I've always failed to do it."
"That's not funny."
"...I think it will be all right this time."
Cloud became very quiet for a moment. Then he said, "Because you're always with me."
"I haven't always been with you."
"That's how it will be starting from tomorrow," Cloud replied smiling again.

Source: http://ffviinovels.lhyeung.net/caseoftifa/page03.php

1) First of all, Tifa doesn't respond as if Cloud means anything romantic by it. "I haven't always been with you" doesn't sound to me like she's taking it romantically. IF the HA HW scene had actually happened, then it seems to me that she would realize that Cloud meant it romantically.

Anastar, you argued 'mutually confirmed disinterest.' I'm calling goalpost shift on this one.

2) Second, if Cloud meant that romantically, then how come Barret comes along with them? Seems to me that Cloud and Tifa would go off on their own if they had romantic intentions.

Barret leaves them a week after he helps build their new house. He later refers to them as being together, with Cid commenting that Tifa wears the pants in their relationship.

3) Third, neither of them have family to go back to - that's the same reason they stay behind at the HW together, whether they get the Low Affection or the High Affection version. Since it can be LA or HA for them to stay together at the HW, why can't it be LA or HA for them to stay together after FFVII?

Here's the thing, though. HA and LA don't change the actual affection in the narrative. The affection value is a meaningless point value which decides the outcome of a minigame. It actually translates into their world than HP and MP do.

2) in a different way than before[/B]
Where does it say "in a different way than before"?
The translation above is from here: http://ffviinovels.lhyeung.net/
I've always been told that's a reliable source. I see that Danna's translation at TLS translates it like this:

Cloud was silent for a long time before he spoke again.
“Because I have you this time.”
"You've always had me."
"What I mean is kind of different," Cloud answered with another smile.

I think it's strange that the translation is so different. As far as I remember, the translation at http://ffviinovels.lhyeung.net/ was updated with the revised edition.

New information has been added, but the revisions haven't been made as far as I can determine.

At any rate, Cloud doesn't actually say that their relationship should be different than before. He says that what he means is different from the way Tifa took it. He does not say in what way it's different. Nor does he show in what way it's different. It's left up to speculation.

But there is such a thing as reasonable speculation, and speculation within context. Remember, Cloud smiles both at the idea of starting a new life with Tifa, and when saying he means it's different than the way he's had her before.

It could mean that he intends for them to start a romantic relationship, but we never see that confirmed in any way. Then again, it could also mean that it will be different because they won't be fighting battles every day like they did during FFVII. After all, he says a bit later after they visit Kalm that he wants to go back to their "suspended reality". When Barret asks what he means by that, Cloud says, "Or normal lives".

That sounds like something different to me - so that could easily be what he means.

You keep giving us 'it sounds like to me' and 'could' arguments without substantiation beyond your assertion or any consideration as to narrative likelihood.

3) How does mutual disinterest lead to the two of them deciding to form a family together?
You left an important word out. The phrase should be "mutual romantic disinterest".

YOU left out an important word, then. YOU were the one who gave us mutually confirmed disinterest. And again this doesn't work in the context of Canon. Tifa still has feelings for Cloud. Those aren't optional. Hell, even Cloud's for Tifa aren't, since we have the 'became aware of the feelings he was holding' line refering to the 'He'll be so pleased' line from the lifestream.
Regardless, Tifa still likes Cloud romantically, so 'mutual romantic disinterest' is still a non argument.

Having no romantic interest in each other doesn't mean that they aren't friends. Shrouded (a good friend of mine at the CxA forums) and I have no romantic interest in each other, but I consider us good friends. If he had no place to stay and he was in my area, he'd be welcome to live in my house in the guest bedroom for as long as he wanted.

And would you take care of the child of a third friend together? Or a child he picked up off the street?

Furthermore, Barret and Tifa lived together in Midgar before FFVII, and they seemed to be as close as family. Tifa was also helping raise Marlene at that time. Does that mean Barret and Tifa were in love?

Ah, yes, this old canard. Funny how everyone thinks 'Tifa was helping raise Marlene,' but not Biggs, Wedge, or Jessie.

Also, Cid and Shera were living together when Avalanche got to Rocket Town, but Cid had never forgiven Shera for the oxygen tank incident that prevented the rocket take off. He had absolutely no romantic interest in Shera until he found out that she had been right about the oxygen tank in Disk 2.

You say that he had none of this based on what, exactly?

We heard nothing about romantic interest between them until the novella's, actually. Yet, they were living together and Shera was cooking for him and keeping house for him like a wife.

So, wait, you're arguing that because we don't hear about romantic interest until later, it couldn't have existed at the earlier time?

4) deciding to form a family together
They didn't decide to form a family together. It was all Tifa's idea, and she wasn't sure how Cloud would feel about it. Marlene was the one to invite Cloud into the family, so it wasn't Cloud's idea.

"A family." (Tifa)
"Yeah." (Marlene)
Marlene cheerfully answered in response to Tifa's murmur.
"I'll put Cloud in our family too." (Marlene)
"I appreciate that." (Cloud)


After Cloud thanked Marlene's innocent offer with his serious face, he looked at Tifa. Tifa nodded a little. Would there be various problems arising after this? However, Tifa decided that she would stop worrying about the relationship between the two of them.


You're taking a four year old as more authoritative than the U10, now? I mean, Marlene's a smart kid and she means well, but she is FOUR.
And the creators say

"The present Tifa isn’t just Cloud’s childhood friend, but also the mother of the ‘family’ they were forming in Edge." - Tifa's U10 profile.

Furthermore, Tifa said that the family was made up of friends:

Friends were a necessity to me so that I could live on without being supressed by the sins in my consciousness. Even if they were fellow companions that had the same wounds. Even if they were fellow companions who were burdened with the same sins. We couldn't live without comforting each other and encouraging each other.

Maybe you could call that family. We just had to keep the family together and do our best.


Tifa thought she could get over anything being with friends that she could call family.

Referring to her time with AVALANCHE, rather than the new life and new family.

Cloud reinforced that idea in Dissidia 12 when he called Tifa his "nakama".

Right, you've referenced a random Japanese word without giving me any reference as to its meaning. Give me any reason why I should treat this as anything other than a smokescreen.
And for the reference, I know what it means. You still ought to provide a translation.

5) raising children together
- Where does it say they decided to raise children together? Does Cloud ever say to Tifa that he wants to have kids with her, or does Tifa say that to Cloud? As I remember, Barret asked them to take care of Marlene when he left Marlene with them. It wasn't really their choice. Then Cloud brought Denzel to the Seventh Heaven because he thought Aerith brought Denzel to him. He wanted to take care of Denzel because Aerith brought Denzel to him, not because he wanted to raise kids with Tifa.

As with your Shroudypoo hypothetical above, would you not utter a word of protest if FFG dropped a kid off for the two of you to take care of for the forseeable future, and would you agree to take care of a child he brought home off the street?

6) have a future together
- Where does it say they will have a future together? Cloud says, "That's how it will be starting from tomorrow", but he doesn't say, "let's have a future together". If Shrouded moved into my house, I could suggest that we start a business together. If he agreed to that idea, I could say that's how it'll be starting from tomorrow. Does that mean we're in love?

This one you have no excuse for missing. Not only because we've been arguing over the contents of this book for half a decade, but also because it's in english. Reunion Files. P18. "She has a long history of memories with him that are linked to their future." It's only in the first quote in the Tifa section. Wonder how you could miss that.

Or it could mean either one, since there's a page reference at the top of the HW picture for page 232, where it specifies that there are two versions of the scene. Also, IIRC, the picture on the FTOIL page is found in both the LA and HA versions.

THUS INVALIDATING YOUR ARGUMENT!
Thanks for playing, would you like a copy of our home game?
IF A) Feelings are shared on both versions and B) the FTOIL page doesn't care which version is occuring, then Conclusion) Romantic feelings are shared in both high and low affection versions.

In addition, there's also a picture of Cloud and Aerith on the FTOIL page. The HW scene picture and the Clerith Date picture are the ONLY pictures on the page that are said to have deviations (according to a Clerith translator). FFVII is the only game on the page with two pictures showing Cloud with different women. That makes it pretty clear that there's two possible love interests. Since both are specified as optional, then it's also pretty obvious that the love interest is left up to player choice.

Except, no. Even when one travels to the page and sees the information on the dates, not only does it repeat the 'how Cloud acts yadda yadda' it still only talks about what the women and barret are interested in. It never mentions a return of feelings for Cloud, who is canonically oblivious to their intentions at this time.
Meanwhile, p232 which you love to trumpet so very much, STILL mentions mutually confirmed feelings without words. It stresses the confirmation, not the optionality. And Tifa's CCU profile says She and Cloud confirm their 'feelings for each other' at the end of the story. Disinterest isn't a feeling. It's a lack of feelings.

And it specifically says "If Tifa's affection regarding Cloud is high", so we know that only happens in the High Affection version. It doesn't say that the HA version is canon, it just says what happens in the HA version. The FFVII UO also says this on page 198:

After stopping Hojo from going amuck, the conversation with Tifa before they rush into the Northern Crater diverges into two conditions, according to Tifa's affection rating for Cloud. When the affection rating is low, the conversation in the scene where they spend the night will be apathetic and ends quickly. ~page 198, Final Fantasy VII Ultimania Omega

So the FFVII UO specifically says that there are two versions depending on Tifa's affection rating. It does not say that one version is canon.

We don't need to have that particular place say it- BTW, thank you for providing the quote that renders your 'apathetic feelings' argument null and void. The conversation is apathetic and ends quickly. Nothing said about apathetic feelings or the like.
We KNOW that feelings are shared, from the CCU if nowhere else (and we do have other places). We know that in one version feelings are shared strongly -P232 U20). We know that in another version the conversation is apathetic and short (Not the feelings, the conversation)- p298 UO. Anastar, you're simply refusing to recognize the forest for the trees here.
We KNOW A) that Feelings are confirmed. B) Feelings are confirmed in one version. C) The conversation is apathetic and short in the other. This does not lead us to the conclusion that neither version is canonized, but the opposite. Feelings occur. If feelings occur only in one version, THAT VERSION HAPPENED.

How do you know this is about the HA version? It doesn't say HA version. It doesn't say that they confirm romantic feelings - it just says that their feelings match. Well, their feelings for each other match in the LA version, too.

You keep asserting this. It continues not to be true. I would like you to very explicitly detail what quotes make you think the LA version is also mutual, and if you try and use the 'conversation is apathetic and short' quote, I will know you are being disingenuous.

ADDED NOTE: Quex said to me later that she knows it's talking about the HA version from the context of the page. As a result, I say that it has no bearing on whether or not the HA version is canon because the page specifies which version it's talking about.[/quote]

So, you think that the page saying 'Dude, this totally happened' has no bearing on whether or not it actually happened.
We're getting very silly now. Very very silly.

Again, there's no indication that it's talking about the HA version, so how does he know? It doesn't say "romantic feelings", so we don't know what kind of feelings they're talking about. Cloud and Tifa's feelings for each other match in the LA version, too.

ADDED NOTE: Again, Quex said to me later that she knows it's talking about the HA version from the context of the page. As a result, I say that it has no bearing on whether or not the HA version is canon because the page specifies which version it's talking about.

'Feelings are mutual in the LA version too' is an odd new mantra you have going here. But it's still not true.

I see no reason to comment on the quotes that show no feelings, since it just reinforces what I was saying before. When no feelings are specified, it could easily be talking about either the LA or HA version.

Because...?

However, I will comment on the bolded part: "So HALF of the quotes posted talk about romantic feelings, no ifs ands or buts". Those half of the quotes are specified to be talking about the High Affection version, so that means romantic feelings happen ONLY in the High Affection version. How does saying what happens in the HA version mean that it's canon when it specifically says that it happens in the HA version only?

And what about the other half that AREN'T specifically the HA version but ARE still about romance?

Once again, SE has clearly said that the Clerith date scene is default (and no, I don't think "default" and "canon" necessarily mean the same thing). If they're willing to say that the Clerith date scene is default, then it looks like they'd be willing to say that the HW scene has a canon version IF it really did have a canon version.

So, Aerith's date being 'default' means something, but you think they ought to be willing to say that the HA version is canon if it has one?
Maybe by listing that version as one of the four most important scenes in the game- maybe by referring to it casually in an interview, maybe by releasing quotes that honestly make arguments against its canonicity look extremely silly as they try and assert conclusions counter to the very evidence they provide?
Or do we simply need a press release for this again?
Funny how C/T moments always need press releases, but never C/A ones. It's, well, it's frankly an amazing double standard.


First of all, I consider the part in red to be slander.

That's not slander. Even in the Colloquial sense, saying 'You make no sense' is no slander.

In the second place, you'll need to ask SE since I didn't create the scene. If SE calls the "Low Affection" version "Low Affection", then it means there is no romantic interest shown in that scene.

Sorry, English language calling- Low!= no. When I'm in low gear on my car, I still have a gear.

A player gets the "Low Affection" version when Tifa's affection level is below 40 (IIRC). Tifa has a low affection rating for Cloud when Cloud doesn't show romantic interest in Tifa during the game. If Cloud doesn't show romantic interest in Tifa during the game, then he has no romantic interest in her. Therefore, their feelings are mutual.

So, I CAN Make Cloud and Barret fall in love during the game, is that what you're saying?
If so, I need to rename this thread to account for the new Polyhedral.

SE's the one who created the LA scene, and they obviously made it because they wanted it to be optional whether or not Cloud shows romantic interest in Tifa. You'll have to ask SE why they created a scene where the two stay behind and disclose that they have no romantic interest in each other - not me.

Actually, it's still you. Because you're the one who says that this is what happens there. No one else has. SE definitely never has. All they've said is that the LA version conversation is apathetic and short. Not that anyone's feelings in it are. But again, this is akin to the bad end of 10-2. They put that in the game for a reason, too.

What I think is obvious is that SE chose to make a demonstration of romance optional. If Cloti was supposed to be canon, then SE could easily have made the High Affection version non-optional. But SE wanted there to be an alternative. Cloud is able to show romantic interest in Tifa, but he doesn't have to. Therefore, romantic feelings for Tifa are optional.

By this argument, Gilgamesh appearing in the world of FFVIII is optional. You don't HAVE to get Odin before heading to Fight Seifer.

Apparently, SE didn't want to create a non-optional scene where Cloud says he loves Tifa. That must mean that SE wanted to leave Cloud's love interest up to player choice.

Except one can offer a choice with a right answer and a wrong answer, or in this case, a canon and a non canon answer. Your own evidence shows that this is the case. See the forest for the trees, Anastar.

That's all I'm answering for now because I've been working on this since 10:00 am and it's now 1:00 pm. That's enough for one day. :P

I will answer more as Quex provides questions for me and as I have the time to answer. I hope this format will work better for everyone.

It took you three hours to write that?
It took me maybe an hour and a half to respond. With liberal breaks.

Nomura didn't seem picky making Ingus/ Serah, Cecil/ Rosa, Squall/ Rinoa and more canon.

In the interests of further truth, Nomura had JACK DIDDLY to say about Ingus/Sarah and Cecil/Rosa. He wasn't even with Square until one game later, and then as a map and monster designer.
 

Vivi

Jump Rope Champion
AKA
Vivi, Setzer Gabbiani
Am I the only one who gets the vibe that when Barret and Tifa are claimed to be the parents, this indicates they're lovers? It's probably why it sounds so wrong to me...it's like Tifa's just being lumped with Barret for the convenience of getting her out of the way. And bothers me a lot.

Don't know if that's your intention or belief, CR and I'm not trying to say it is. It's just what I get everytime I see this claim. :T

I have to admit that I dislike this argument too. Most of the time, Cloud is considered to be the 'brother' in the family, and that skeeves me out. Would that make Cloud Tifa's son? How is that not creepy?

But I don't think anyone ever meant to imply that Barret and Tifa are lovers. Because that would make no sense at all. I'm not entirely sure though.
 

Tina Armstrong

Rockstar
AKA
Fackbito, RedGloves, Eileen Galvin, Saria, Lady Croft
I would just like to point out that a person can believe Cloti is canon and still 'ship CxA.
I am one of those.
The point of this thread never was, and hopefully never will be, to get someone to alter their personal shipping preferences, but it is, to discuss the LTD canon outcome, which there is overwhelming evidence to officially declare supplied within the compilation narrative.
The thing was that she seemed to believe that C/A was canon. That's what makes me confused.
 

Ryushikaze

Deus Admiral Parsimonious, PHD, DDS, MD, JD, OBE
AKA
Tim, Ryu
I have to admit that I dislike this argument too. Most of the time, Cloud is considered to be the 'brother' in the family, and that skeeves me out. Would that make Cloud Tifa's son? How is that not creepy?

But I don't think anyone ever meant to imply that Barret and Tifa are lovers. Because that would make no sense at all. I'm not entirely sure though.

I'm never sure why Cloud should be the brother, since he's been described as a parental figure by two other members of the family. Mostly, though, it comes across as realizing that 'mother and father' are usually linked as being romantically inclined towards each other, and refusing to admit to themselves that thus is the case with C/T, and so moving Cloud out of the father position by filling it with Barret instead, even though he's outside the immediate family unit.

I still think that 'Aunty and Uncle in Edge-Air' are the best way to conceptualize how Marlene and Barret fit into the 7th heaven family. One is part of it. The other is not.
Will's mother in Fresh Prince was not part of the family in Bel-Aire, but was still Will's mom. She didn't replace aunt Bev, either.
Also, Marlene is rapping in my head thanks to this analogy. This is a good thing.


I would just like to point out that a person can believe Cloti is canon and still 'ship CxA. The point of this thread never was, and hopefully never will be, to get someone to alter their personal shipping preferences, but it is, to discuss the LTD canon outcome, which there is overwhelming evidence to officially declare supplied within the compilation narrative.

Yar. This is how I am too. Fuck what you like or don't like. I'm concerned with what can be said to BE. Same as with R=U.

Having said that, I shall now do a celebratory victory laugh that Misty has joined the dark side!! :muhaha:

[DarthVader]Join the dark side. Our medical plan is second to none.... And we have cookies.[/Darthvader]
 

ClerithRaven

DIE-HARD CLERITH
AKA
Ren, ClerithRaven, Lunafresca's Raven
Am I the only one who gets the vibe that when Barret and Tifa are claimed to be the parents, this indicates they're lovers? It's probably why it sounds so wrong to me...it's like Tifa's just being lumped with Barret for the convenience of getting her out of the way. And bothers me a lot.

Don't know if that's your intention or belief, CR and I'm not trying to say it is. It's just what I get everytime I see this claim. :T

Oh, heavens no! That would be.. well, bothersome for me too. I just pointed it out. It's more like, Barret is Marlene's legal father. While Tifa acts as the mother, adn well, let's assume that Cloud finally manages to really act as the father after AC/C.

Though what happens when Barret comes back? Lucky Marlene. She gets two fathers.

I am one of those.

:joy:

The thing was that she seemed to believe that C/A was canon. That's what makes me confused.

You and me both, sister. :whistle:
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Ryushikaze

Deus Admiral Parsimonious, PHD, DDS, MD, JD, OBE
AKA
Tim, Ryu
Oh, heavens no! That would be.. well, bothersome for me too. I just pointed it out. It's more like, Barret is Marlene's legal father. While Tifa acts as the mother, adn well, let's assume that Cloud finally manages to really act as the father after AC/C.

Though what happens when Barret comes back? Lucky Marlene. She gets two fathers.

Now that reminds me of something else...

But yes, Barret is her father. Cloud and Tifa are her acting guardians, a father and mother figure.
 

Tina Armstrong

Rockstar
AKA
Fackbito, RedGloves, Eileen Galvin, Saria, Lady Croft
It's more like, Barret is Marlene's legal father. While Tifa acts as the mother, adn well, let's assume that Cloud finally manages to really act as the father after AC/C.
I agree. But I think Cloud is acting like the father in CoT already. :awesome:

Though what happens when Barret comes back? Lucky Marlene. She gets two fathers.
Oh, tough one. I guess Cloud is more of a temporary dad, or.. something..

You and me both, sister. :whistle:
:monster:
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom