The Love Triangle Debate thread of KNEEL BEFORE ZOD OR SUFFER HIS WRATH (ignore the opening posts at your peril) (Round 6)

[Makoeyes987]

Let's behave folks...

Watch it. Again, I reiterate. No macros in this thread. Period.

 

[Fairheartstrife]

Let's behave folks...

Watch it. Again, I reiterate. No macros in this thread. Period.

Well, would it make it any better if those were the exact words I would have used in text? Just with added picture for emotional enhancement.

 

[Celes Chere]

Anastar will not be returning to this thread but I was informed I could PM her my reply, and then post what her reply is here.

But why? Couldn't she have told us in the thread? Don't you feel kind of annoyed being her messenger? O_o I mean there's no point posting her reply if we're replying to someone that's not going to back up their points of view any longer.

 

[Dashell]

May i ask a question?

Everyone seemed to agree that some scenes with multiple outcomes have canon scenes and some don't. This was pointed out by Tres, Ryu, even Anastar, myself, Gym Leader...

What is the appropriate response to this exactly? I mean you guys just kept posting it over and over and over and yelling it at each other, yet you were all agreeing on it... that's one thing that I really have to admit I don't get.

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

Agreeing with Tiff, if she's too put upon to debate us here then she's too put upon to debate with the people here. I mean, sure I'd decided to just not reply to anything she says again and all but others present had made no such declarations. If she wants to debate them, she should do it here, not through a proxy. No matter how awesome her proxy may be

Edit: Durnit Q, ya posted while I was posting.

I think we need to set what our standards are for determining which scenes have a canon outcome, and which do not.

For instance, the HA/LA deviation that's caused so many headaches in here is demonstrable as having a canon outcome due to the creator interviews that all reference it over the LA version, by the events portrayed in that version being expressly stated as having occurred, etc. Things that we also pointed out to Anastar, I might add. We hardly spent the entire debate about that just shouting "SOME DO SOME DON'T STFU!" ya know.

 

[Fairheartstrife]

May i ask a question?

Everyone seemed to agree that some scenes with multiple outcomes have canon scenes and some don't. This was pointed out by Tres, Ryu, even Anastar, myself, Gym Leader...

What is the appropriate response to this exactly? I mean you guys just kept posting it over and over and over and yelling it at each other, yet you were all agreeing on it... that's one thing that I really have to admit I don't get.

I could be wrong, but I believe Tres, Ryu, etc... were making the point that the HA version is later referenced by source materials, and therefore, should be interpreted as the canon happening. Kind of like Yuffie and Vincent joining the crew. Something that has no canon relevance or outcome would not be cited directly again, methinks.

Of course, again, I could be wrong about their thinking, and can only tell you my view on it. Which I just did

 

[Master Bates]

Everyone seemed to agree that some scenes with multiple outcomes have canon scenes and some don't. What is the appropriate response to this exactly?

When it directly affects the plot.

 

[Dashell]

So you wanted her to explain why that scene didn't have a canon outcome to her despite these things right? YOu want her to explain her side of the story?

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

We wanted her to SUPPORT HER ARGUMENTS with something OTHER THAN TOTAL CONJECTURE and crap pulled STRAIGHT FROM HER ASS. We wanted her, and anyone else arguing against the canonicity of a scene, to prove her points or concede.

 

[Dashell]

I could be wrong, but I believe Tres, Ryu, etc... were making the point that the HA version is later referenced by source materials, and therefore, should be interpreted as the canon happening.

Kinda like Aerith's date is brought up most often? LIke in Dismantled or how they say it's most likely to get her date and it's default?

We wanted her to SUPPORT HER ARGUMENTS with something OTHER THAN TOTAL CONJECTURE and crap pulled STRAIGHT FROM HER ASS. We wanted her, and anyone else arguing against the canonicity of a scene, to prove her points or concede.

I think that's what she tried to do here.

I say the same is true of the Highwind scene. It does not matter if you get the High Affection or the Low Affection version. Cloud will still move in with Tifa and Barret. They will still start a Seventh Heaven in Edge. Marlene will still invite Cloud into the family. Tifa will still say that the family is made up of friends. Cloud will still start a delivery service. Cloud will still bring Denzel home from the Church. Cloud will still disappear and move into the Church. Kadaj, Loz, and Yazoo will still appear in AC/ACC. NONE of what happens in FFVII after the Highwind scene, in the novella's, in AC/ACC, or DoC is affected by whether or not you get the Low Affection or the High Affection scene. Everything that happens can happen regardless of which version you get.

NOTHING in the story depends on whether or not Cloud and Tifa are in love, or whether Cloud and Aerith are in love. If something did depend on that, then there would be reason to think there is a canon version. But there is not a single thing in the story that is dependent on whether Cloud loves Tifa or Aerith.

?

Sorry, I'm not trying to play White Knight or w/e, I'm just trying to figure out exactly what you wanted. you DO realize that she felt she had sustained her point and felt you guys didn't sustain yours right?

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

Q, I love ya, but before I answer lemme ask this. Are you asking for yourself, or for Anastar? Cause in case it wasn't clear I am not debating nor indeed speaking with her from the time of my last post directed at her. Thus, I would very much like anything I say to stay here. If she wants to know what I'm saying, she knows how to find it herself.

If you're asking for your own edification, as I would assume you are, I'm fine responding. I just wanna double check, rather than assume.

 

[Dashell]

It's for me, she has nothing to do with this. I'm not very happy with her withdrawing herself from the thread either, but I'm trying to figure out exactly where this all went wrong. I mean CR and LL aren't having these kinds of problems so... I guess as someone who would like that Cleriths be able to post here without problems, I want to figure out what the problems was.

I'm not going to run to her and say anything, don't worry

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

Fair enough, much as I disagree with their position I want Cleriths to be comfortable posting here too. Can't really debate without two sides, and what with the new rules this thread is pretty near pointless without a debate ongoing.

Alright, for the bit of her post you quoted I actually made an attempt to make my position more comfortable for her and maybe get off the subject of the HA/LA and move to some other aspect of the debate. I did so by pointing out that if, as she said, the difference between the two has no impact on the plot at all, then what is said of the HA scene (mutual feelings shared, etc) and its consequences for those involved (moving in together, raising kids together, etc) must happen either way. Since we know from guidebooks and creator interviews that Cloud and Tifa DID share these feelings, and we all know what follows from CoT and AC/C, then either HA is canon or indeed it doesn't matter.

So, my issue with the above quoted post you provided is this: In using that argument to try and downplay the importance of the scene, she utterly ignored that if it changes nothing it changes nothing. In no time at all she went straight back to pull things out of her ass regarding the LA scene. Things like Cloud "flat out rejecting Tifa" and "expressing feelings of apathy," things that are so disproven by... every source we've provided on the subject, and flat out ridiculous to boot. That's my issue with the bit you quoted.

 

[Dashell]

Things like Cloud "flat out rejecting Tifa"

Yeah this one caught me by surprise XD I'm gong to just assume that she had that essay written a while ago, was adding to it, and forgot to edit that part.

Anyways, okay I think I get what the problem was. Other Cleriths are doing fine though so I'm not going to think about it too hard, I was just wondering what was wrong with what she posted there because it does sorta back up her claim that there is no canon version.

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

And if the difference between the two versions is mostly a matter of HOW the feelings are shared, I agree. As I told her... though I think she skipped out on replying to that. Seemed to be her greatest defense to anything she didn't like in here, that.

And that essay looked damned familiar. I'm almost certain I read it somewhere around the time I arrived here on TLS. Which was back during the LTD version 3.0. But, long Clerith "supporting" essays may all just have a certain commonality to them, so I'm not totally sure. Either way I am sure at least some of it was written quite some time in the past.

And yes, I agree the folks like CR and LL are doing much better. I miss them, hope they come around and give us all something to debate again soon aside from the problems with Anastar.

 

[Tina Armstrong]

Yeah, it's been awhile since CR and LL posted something.
I MISS YOU GUYS HERE

 

[Master Bates]

Hitobito, I give you my regards. Come back!

 

[ClerithRaven]

I may have to withdraw form the forum for a while due to time constraints.

Gym Leader Devil and Ryu, I'm sorry if I haven't gotten back to your posts from way back. It's been buried pages before and I might have a hard time finding them again with my broadband. I will reply to you, but maybe through a PM which you can freely post here if you would like.

 

[Dashell]

I will reply to you, but maybe through a PM which you can freely post here if you would like.

Aww, just post it here. I like reading your guys' debates. Sad to hear you won't be around... but if you ever find the time, please do come back.

 

[Master Bates]

I may have to withdraw form the forum for a while due to time constraints.

Gym Leader Devil and Ryu, I'm sorry if I haven't gotten back to your posts from way back. It's been buried pages before and I might have a hard time finding them again with my broadband. I will reply to you, but maybe through a PM which you can freely post here if you would like.

Girl, don't pressure yourself over the LTD. Just post whenever you have the time. Your academic activities are more important. Wish you all the best in your studies.

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

You will be missed if life takes you away CR, but your studies and such do need to come first. We all agree on that I'm sure (which may be a first in this thread).

If and when you have the time, you know where to find us. And I'm totally cool if you ever wanna PM me at any time to boot.

 

[Vendel]

Most players and most people I've talked to about the LTD thought Cloud would end up with Aerith even before meeting her.

Who are these people?

Clichés say that Main Guy has to end up with Main Girl -in this case Aerith- so normally, people would think FF7 wouldn't be an exception, and more with the main girl showing interest towards the main guy. I'm not saying anything happens in the game that could lead people to think they'll end up together, I'm saying the premise of the game can make people believe that even if it's not true. That's why I used Dissidia and KH as examples. In KH all you know is that Cloud is searching for his light, and the only other characters from FF7 there are Cid, Yuffie, Aerith, and Sephiroth. Out of all of them, the one people would relate with Light would be Aerith. Then it turns out it was Tifa all along.
In the game, you only know that Cloud is the main character and this girl in a pink dress is the main girl, both shown in the back of the cd case together. Without knowing what actually happens in the game, it's easy to reach the conclusion that they are tied together and that Tifa doesn't even exist. That's what I meant.

So your argument for the creators trolling the fanbase by making everyone think C/A would end up together is some disk art?

Listen, I'm not arguing that Aerith was presented as a possible love interest on the first disk. But no more than Tifa. In fact you get plenty of that ship tease with her before you even meet Aerith.

And the other (main) point that I was making is that the idea of player control on the first disk is an illusion. And who Cloud might want to fuck is small portion of that.

 

[Dashell]

Girl, don't pressure yourself over the LTD. Just post whenever you have the time. Your academic activities are more important. Wish you all the best in your studies.

No, I think the LTD is more important

 

[Celes Chere]

Can we talk about Riku x Sora again?

 

[OneWingedDemon]

How did she sustain her point if she didn't fucking respond to issues raised by other people? She repeatedly ignored Tres, Ryu, GLD, me, etc.

She just came in, posted pure bs pulled out of her rectum, then proceeded to post the same shit all over again as if people had not responded to her. Then left.

Am I missing anything?

Her responses were a variation of "no, I don't think so, HA not canon lalalalala" no matter what people countered with. She never engaged with the counterarguments presented. I don't have an answer from her to anything. Neither do other people, except "SE has not spelled it out".