The Love Triangle Debate thread of KNEEL BEFORE ZOD OR SUFFER HIS WRATH (ignore the opening posts at your peril) (Round 6)

[Ryushikaze]

May i ask a question?

Everyone seemed to agree that some scenes with multiple outcomes have canon scenes and some don't. This was pointed out by Tres, Ryu, even Anastar, myself, Gym Leader...

What is the appropriate response to this exactly? I mean you guys just kept posting it over and over and over and yelling it at each other, yet you were all agreeing on it... that's one thing that I really have to admit I don't get.

It's right there in Tres's BIG YELLY UNDERLINED paragraph. Determination of which is which.
Anastar's argument stopped at 'It's optional, ergo no canon' and tried to treat our argument as the same- re-referencing the wording of the front page article even after both he and I had clarified.
Tres, Myself, everyone else wanted to discuss how mere optionality doesn't render something acanon, asking her to provide some criteria for deciding when an optional scenes canonicity cannot be determined, and asking her to provide additional support in favor of reclassifying the Highwind scene as 'Undetermined/Undeterminable.'

Agreeing with Tiff, if she's too put upon to debate us here then she's too put upon to debate with the people here. I mean, sure I'd decided to just not reply to anything she says again and all but others present had made no such declarations. If she wants to debate them, she should do it here, not through a proxy. No matter how awesome her proxy may be

Oh, I despite argument by proxy. Asking for assistance is one thing, but parroting someone else's or conveying an argument between them is just dumb.

I think we need to set what our standards are for determining which scenes have a canon outcome, and which do not.

In fact, it was demanded in the BIGYELLYPOST that this be done.

For instance, the HA/LA deviation that's caused so many headaches in here is demonstrable as having a canon outcome due to the creator interviews that all reference it over the LA version, by the events portrayed in that version being expressly stated as having occurred, etc. Things that we also pointed out to Anastar, I might add. We hardly spent the entire debate about that just shouting "SOME DO SOME DON'T STFU!" ya know.

Granted, we spent a lot of time repeating it, but you tend to try and establish a first premise before moving onto a second one, and it took some pulling of teeth to get that premise established.

I could be wrong, but I believe Tres, Ryu, etc... were making the point that the HA version is later referenced by source materials, and therefore, should be interpreted as the canon happening. Kind of like Yuffie and Vincent joining the crew. Something that has no canon relevance or outcome would not be cited directly again, methinks.

Of course, again, I could be wrong about their thinking, and can only tell you my view on it. Which I just did

Something like that.
More specifically, it is that the Outcome of the HA version is what is referenced.
Anastar pointed out that that p232 says 'If X, then Y' for AV and feeling sharing. P232 also says Y happens 'strongly and earnestly'.
Anastar asserts- without evidence as far as I can determine, that 'feelings are shared in both versions' That's fine, technically. But she also says that the 'feelings' in the LV are 'apathetic' ones, which is IIRC contrary to the text, and is definitely contrary to the logic.
P398, FTOIL, says 'Y happens, and it's ROMANTIC' It doesn't care about if.

Kinda like Aerith's date is brought up most often? LIke in Dismantled or how they say it's most likely to get her date and it's default?

Not quite.
The problem with 'Aerith's date is brought up most often' is that if it is, it's not by much majority over Tifa's date. In the UO, Aerith's date is in her profile, but so too is Tifa's in hers. in the U10, the same thing arises, with Tifa's date also making an appearance in Cloud's profile to explain that he is clueless to the intentions of both women. Further, the Exact outcome of the date sequence is entirely irrelevant to the plot. This makes it, along with quite a lot of other things very difficult to pin down as being canon or not. (Did Cloud answer Yes or No to that woman in KALM, for example)
Now, depending on how you view the highwind scene, it too may actually be irrelevant as to the outcome. The thing is, we know the outcome. We are told that mutual feelings are confirmed that night. This melds far better with the 'high' version, in which these things are actually discussed.
Even just limiting this back to ONLY the FTOIL page, the thing is that what the text focuses on for the date that it's determinable. It says absolutely nothing about the date content, or which one might have happened. Contrast, we see that it focuses on the mutual confirmation of feelings. Anastar kept using the word 'emphasize' in her essay, to say that SE 'emphasized' the optionality of the Highwind scene. But they did not. What was emphasized was that feelings were shared. This phrase was repeated. The variability is mentioned, but like with Shadow, it's not emphasized, and pointing it out doesn't change that we're told he lived. But the date text emphasizes 'It depends,' this text is likewise on the accompanying page if I do not misremember.
It's been said that the Low version is apathetic and short. If one is arguing that feelings for each other are shared in both versions, and thus that the feelings in the low version are feelings of apathy, you have just argued that the low version did not happen. Ignoring the FTOIL page or love, or anything like that, Cloud and Tifa are not apathetic about each other, full stop. Even setting the concept of 'love' aside entirely, Cloud and Tifa are important to the other. You don't have apathy to people who are important to you.
I could go on, but I think that suffices for now.

I think that's what she tried to do here.

But she never responded to criticisms of her arguments. Never engaged. She either ignored them or simply repeated her first point over again.

?

Sorry, I'm not trying to play White Knight or w/e, I'm just trying to figure out exactly what you wanted. you DO realize that she felt she had sustained her point and felt you guys didn't sustain yours right?

Considering she kept ignoring our points, how can she say we did?

Yeah this one caught me by surprise XD I'm gong to just assume that she had that essay written a while ago, was adding to it, and forgot to edit that part.

It's a TERRIBLY old essay. And a terrible old one too.

Anyways, okay I think I get what the problem was. Other Cleriths are doing fine though so I'm not going to think about it too hard, I was just wondering what was wrong with what she posted there because it does sorta back up her claim that there is no canon version.

Again, it doesn't. Well, either it doesn't, or it does to no effective difference. We absolutely positively certamundilly know that feelings Cloud and Tifa hold for each other are shared on that evening. Even the page with deviation on it once again reasserts that this is the way things happen. So either you conclude from the deviation that
A) As per the 'Apathetic and Short' version, feelings are shared in only one version, and the version with shared feelings is canon.
B) Feelings are shared in both versions.

B) leads us to
Ba) The way in which the feelings are shared changes, as the deviation notes that they are expressed strongly and earnestly.
Bb) The feelings themselves are different, though we base this on no citations. (Or the Feelings of apathy concept, above discounted for literally being contrary to the remainder of the evidence)

The thing is, though, we are told, through the FTOIL page, what sorts of feelings are conveyed. Romantic ones. So we've got the idea that they're romantic feelings out there. No version is specified.
Either feelings are shared in one and not the other, thus canonizing that version and it's romantic feelings, or you conclude that that feelings are shared to a different degree, making little to no difference in which is canon (though making us wonder why they decided to call one of those the most important scenes in the game) or that in one version they're romantic and in the other they're some other sort of feelings. This last option requires you to make sure those feelings coincide with the rest of the compilation and it's at this point Parsimony And William of Okkam kick down your door, Okkam holds a straight razor to your throat, and Parsimonies tells you William will cut you if you don't stop multiplying entities without need.

And if the difference between the two versions is mostly a matter of HOW the feelings are shared, I agree. As I told her... though I think she skipped out on replying to that. Seemed to be her greatest defense to anything she didn't like in here, that.

And that essay looked damned familiar. I'm almost certain I read it somewhere around the time I arrived here on TLS. Which was back during the LTD version 3.0. But, long Clerith "supporting" essays may all just have a certain commonality to them, so I'm not totally sure. Either way I am sure at least some of it was written quite some time in the past.

I believe I've seen it for many years. I may have seen its proto-form way back before AC was out, before I even knew there was a dedicated website and forum.

I may have to withdraw form the forum for a while due to time constraints.

Gym Leader Devil and Ryu, I'm sorry if I haven't gotten back to your posts from way back. It's been buried pages before and I might have a hard time finding them again with my broadband. I will reply to you, but maybe through a PM which you can freely post here if you would like.

That would be acceptable. By all means, take your time in responding- real life does come first- just please make sure to respond comprehensively.

How did she sustain her point if she didn't fucking respond to issues raised by other people? She repeatedly ignored Tres, Ryu, GLD, me, etc.

She just came in, posted pure bs pulled out of her rectum, then proceeded to post the same shit all over again as if people had not responded to her. Then left.

Am I missing anything?

Her responses were a variation of "no, I don't think so, HA not canon lalalalala" no matter what people countered with. She never engaged with the counterarguments presented. I don't have an answer from her to anything. Neither do other people, except "SE has not spelled it out".

The closest we have is her admitting, after being pressed, that things which are optional are not always without a canon version. But even this was not an addressing of the argument she was being asked, which was for suggestions of methods by which to DETERMINE which options are canon and which are not.

 

[Lady Lifestream]

Ahhh, why are you so fast with your posts?
Five new pages?? I can't keep up!
This will take some time to answer... I'll try to answer shortly.

 

[Elisa Maza]

I have to answer to you, too LL... I'm not sure when, though. I WILL do it, I promise. My work just doesn't let me type for long... or surf for long. During the weekend, probably.

 

[Lady Lifestream]

Okiedokie, I got it.
I think I'll have to do this from now on since quoting nearly thirty responses or more is very time-consuming, and I think I don't have the time for that.

Claim 1: Tifa did Cloud let into her room.
No, she didn't. She says herself in the game.
"I can't remember you ever being in my room..."

Claim 2: Aerith calls Cloud a "confused child" in a non-optional dialogue sequence.
No, she doesn't. The only thing that could come close to this is her dialogue when the player chose a certain answer - something that isn't said to be default.

Claim 3: Tifa did always know that Cloud's smile for her in CoT was true and sincere.
No. Tifa asks herself if Cloud did only fake that smile or if he was indeed sincere about it. She is only sure about that he wants to reassure her everything is fine, but she is clueless about the other part.

Claim 4: The group did know from the beginning that Sephiroth was alive.
It is directly said in the game that the world believes Sephiroth to be dead, and also, the party can hardly believe it, too. So, yes, no one knows about Sephiroth until he (or rather JENOVAs body) appears in the ShinRa headquarters.

Claim 5: The Buster Sword being a symbol of Zacks was already proven in the quote where it's said that Cloud thinks about Zacks when looking at it.
Yes, yes, I wanted to hear something like that! Okiedokie, this convinced me to 85 percent. Thanks for sharing ^^
In this case, you have proven your point of view and I agree :3

I think the rest was about merchandise and minor things... and I still have to search for that quote.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Okiedokie, I got it.
I think I'll have to do this from now on since quoting nearly thirty responses or more is very time-consuming, and I think I don't have the time for that.

Claim 1: Tifa did Cloud let into her room.
No, she didn't. She says herself in the game.
"I can't remember you ever being in my room..."

This phrase does not appear in the English script of FF7 as far as I can find. Where are you sourcing this from?

Claim 2: Aerith calls Cloud a "confused child" in a non-optional dialogue sequence.
No, she doesn't. The only thing that could come close to this is her dialogue when the player chose a certain answer - something that isn't said to be default.

This exact phrase also does not appear in the script. So, point for LL, unless the claimant can provide source.

Claim 3: Tifa did always know that Cloud's smile for her in CoT was true and sincere.
No. Tifa asks herself if Cloud did only fake that smile or if he was indeed sincere about it. She is only sure about that he wants to reassure her everything is fine, but she is clueless about the other part.

Actually, she briefly questions whether that smile was an illusion or not- whether she imagined it- not whether it was him faking sincerity.

Claim 4: The group did know from the beginning that Sephiroth was alive.
It is directly said in the game that the world believes Sephiroth to be dead, and also, the party can hardly believe it, too. So, yes, no one knows about Sephiroth until he (or rather JENOVAs body) appears in the ShinRa headquarters.

I'm not sure who was claiming everyone thought he wasn't dead.
Also, is this related to the 'He was/ wasn't dead' discussion that was going on?

Claim 5: The Buster Sword being a symbol of Zacks was already proven in the quote where it's said that Cloud thinks about Zacks when looking at it.
Yes, yes, I wanted to hear something like that! Okiedokie, this convinced me to 85 percent. Thanks for sharing ^^
In this case, you have proven your point of view and I agree :3

I think the rest was about merchandise and minor things... and I still have to search for that quote.[/QUOTE]

Much was said of Merchandising and Advertising and how little either really means, yes. Don't fret yourself about it unless you want to claim that it does mean something.

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

Okiedokie, I got it.
I think I'll have to do this from now on since quoting nearly thirty responses or more is very time-consuming, and I think I don't have the time for that.

Very reasonable, by all means condense points into something manageable whenever possible. So long as you stay as comprehensive as you can I'm sure no one will mind.

Claim 1: Tifa did Cloud let into her room.

No, she didn't. She says herself in the game.
"I can't remember you ever being in my room..."

I actually do remember her saying this, while viewing a memory in the Lifestream Sequence. I would like to point out that "I don't remember you being in my room when I was eight." is not the same as "I NEVER let you in my room when I was eight." Cloud was definitely there, SOMEONE let him in.

Edit: See? There is a quote right above my post and everything.

Claim 4: The group did know from the beginning that Sephiroth was alive.
It is directly said in the game that the world believes Sephiroth to be dead, and also, the party can hardly believe it, too. So, yes, no one knows about Sephiroth until he (or rather JENOVAs body) appears in the ShinRa headquarters.

They also say that the common knowledge that Sephiroth is dead is largely due to Shinra controlled news reports, and therefore not trustworthy in the least. I believe its Barret that points this out. I agree when they actually SEE Jenova-in-Sephiroth's-form on the way to Costa Del Sol, their reaction seems a bit shocked. So who knows?

Claim 5: The Buster Sword being a symbol of Zacks was already proven in the quote where it's said that Cloud thinks about Zacks when looking at it.

Yes, yes, I wanted to hear something like that! Okiedokie, this convinced me to 85 percent. Thanks for sharing ^^
In this case, you have proven your point of view and I agree :3

I love seeing posts like this. It makes me feel like the debate actually accomplished something for a change

 

[Ryushikaze]

I guess my post about it got buried :/
http://thelifestream.net/forums/showthread.php?p=358877#post358877

Spoiler

Tifa "My room?"

(Young Cloud nods.)

Cloud "It was my first time there."

Tifa "Was... it?"

Cloud "I only used to look up at it from outside."

(The screen flashes white. A teenage Tifa is now sitting on the floor at the foot of her bed, her head bowed on her knees.. Three boys are standing around her.)

"Hey, look!"

(The camera moves to show Tifa's window. One of the boys looks out of it.)

"Cloud's coming!"

(Through the window, we see Young Cloud come running up the path. The boy turns to Tifa.)

"You think he wants to come in?"

(Tifa looks up a moment, then puts her head back down on her knees. The present Tifa speaks.)

Tifa "Was that the first day you came into my room?"

(Another boy walks up to Tifa.)

Tifa "...that's right." "We lived next to each other." "But I really didn't know you that well."

(The third boy comes up.)

Tifa "I've known you since we were children and I always thought we were close..."

(The teenage Tifa looks up, shakes her head, then bows it back down. The camera switches back to the overhead view of Tifa's room.)

Tifa "Now that you mention it... I don't recall you ever being in my room..."

(Young Cloud nods.)

"Tifa always used to be with this three-some."

Tifa "...That's right."

(Young Cloud turns away.)

"I used to think... they were all stupid."

(Tifa spins to face him.)

Tifa "What?"

(He turns back to face Tifa.)

"You were all childish, laughing at every little stupid thing."

(She turns to look at her former self and friends, then back to Young Cloud.)

Tifa "But we were children, back then."

(He turns away slowly.)

"...I know. I'm the one that was stupid." "I really wanted to play with everyone, but I was never allowed into the group."

(He turns to face Tifa dead-on.)

"Then later... I began to think I was different..." "That I was different from those immature kids."

(He turns away.)

"That then... maybe..."

(A double of the adult Cloud, motionless up to this point, materializes. It stands, flashing in and out of existence. Then it speaks. Young Cloud doesn't seem to notice.)

"Just maybe, they would invite me in."

(Tifa spins to face the double.)

"I thought that might happen, so I hung around..."

(Young Cloud speaks.)

"I was so prejudiced. And... weak."

(The double speaks again.)

"That night I called Tifa out to the well..." "I thought to myself Tifa would never come, that she hated me."

(Tifa nods.)

Tifa "Yeah... it was so sudden. I was... a bit surprised."

(She turns to face Young Cloud.)

Tifa "But..." "It's true that we weren't THAT close, but..."

(She turns to face her young self.)

Tifa "After you left town, I really thought about you a lot."

(She holds her face in her hands.)

"I used to wonder how Cloud was doing." "I wonder if Cloud was able to get into SOLDIER?"

(She spins back to face Young Cloud.)

Tifa "I started reading the newspapers, thinking that there might be an article about you."

(Young Cloud looks down.)

"Thanks, Tifa." "Tell him what you told me, later. He'll probably be so happy."

(Tifa nods)

So, who do we believe, Cloud or day-of-the-coma!Tifa?

Thank you. I had hoped to get LL looking at the script, but this works as well.
As Suteki says, Cloud says it was his first time in. Tifa says she doesn't remember him ever being in there.
Tifa has gaps in her memory of this day, as established elsewhere.
I'm gonna scrabble about for the JP script again, see if I can't see if we got a bit of a translation bomb here.

 

[Lady Lifestream]

The whole quote is like this:
"We lived next to each other. But I really didn't know you that well. I've known you since we were children and I always thought we were close... Now that you mention it... I don't recall you ever being in my room..."

I'm not sure who was claiming everyone thought he was dead.

Someone said earlier that Tifa knew Sephiroth was alive when she met Cloud. However, that wasn't true.

I agree when they actually SEE Jenova-in-Sephiroth's-form on the way to Costa Del Sol, their reaction seems a bit shocked. So who knows?

Doesn't Tifa say once that Sephiroth was officially dead?
However, she doesn't know that Cloud had something to do with Sephiroth earlier and also didn't know of their current connection. That was the point I wanted to make sure.

I love seeing posts like this. It makes me feel like the debate actually accomplished something for a change

Yes, I am very thankful to her she provided that quote :3
That clarifies many things ^^

As Suteki says, Cloud says it was his first time in.

Oh? I thought Cloud was still having his own memories...? So is he really remembering being in her room once...? Or is he just thinking he was there since he always stared inside and wanted so much to be in there that he created the memory.
I'm not sure since Tifa says that she doesn't recall him being there...

 

[Celes Chere]

this convinced me to 85 percent. Thanks for sharing ^^
In this case, you have proven your point of view and I agree :3

If the point is proven, then wouldn't you be convinced 100%?

 

[Ryushikaze]

The whole quote is like this:
"We lived next to each other. But I really didn't know you that well. I've known you since we were children and I always thought we were close... Now that you mention it... I don't recall you ever being in my room..."

Yes. But Cloud himself says he was in there at least once.

"
Tifa
"My room?"

(Young Cloud nods.)

Cloud
"It was my first time there."

So, Tifa just forgot about it, or we're having a translation issue. It can happen. This Translation team are sick.

Someone said earlier that Tifa knew Sephiroth was alive when she met Cloud. However, that wasn't true.

I'm sorta surprised I missed THAT one, but yes, she wasn't aware he was still alive.

Doesn't Tifa say once that Sephiroth was officially dead?

I think that's more with the tone of hoping it's true rather than believing.
Man killed her entire hometown, natch.

However, she doesn't know that Cloud had something to do with Sephiroth earlier and also didn't know of their current connection. That was the point I wanted to make sure.

This is quite true.
But this actually leads towards Tifa knowing Cloud on her own. She knows nothing of Sephiroth or Cloud's history causing his off kilter mind, but she can still tell it is off kilter.

 

[Fairheartstrife]

Okiedokie, I got it.
I think I'll have to do this from now on since quoting nearly thirty responses or more is very time-consuming, and I think I don't have the time for that.

Claim 1: Tifa did Cloud let into her room.
No, she didn't. She says herself in the game.
"I can't remember you ever being in my room..."

That's a lot different from Tifa NOT LETTING him in the room. Whihc was the initial claim. He wasn't banned nor ever willfully (at least by Tifa) excluded.

Claim 2: Aerith calls Cloud a "confused child" in a non-optional dialogue sequence.
No, she doesn't. The only thing that could come close to this is her dialogue when the player chose a certain answer - something that isn't said to be default.

You're right. I'm wrong. My apologies for the mix up.

Claim 3: Tifa did always know that Cloud's smile for her in CoT was true and sincere.
No. Tifa asks herself if Cloud did only fake that smile or if he was indeed sincere about it. She is only sure about that he wants to reassure her everything is fine, but she is clueless about the other part.

I disagree. I don't think she ever doubts Cloud's sincerity, but her own interpretation of it. The smile is genuine. The reasons behind it are what she begins to doubt.

Claim 4: The group did know from the beginning that Sephiroth was alive.
It is directly said in the game that the world believes Sephiroth to be dead, and also, the party can hardly believe it, too. So, yes, no one knows about Sephiroth until he (or rather JENOVAs body) appears in the ShinRa headquarters.

I got nothing here, as I didn't think there was a doubt that everyone believed he was dead...

Claim 5: The Buster Sword being a symbol of Zacks was already proven in the quote where it's said that Cloud thinks about Zacks when looking at it.

Yes, yes, I wanted to hear something like that! Okiedokie, this convinced me to 85 percent. Thanks for sharing ^^
In this case, you have proven your point of view and I agree :3

Awesome! I love debates like this!

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Yes. But Cloud himself says he was in there at least once.

"
Tifa
"My room?"

(Young Cloud nods.)

Cloud
"It was my first time there."

So, Tifa just forgot about it, or we're having a translation issue. It can happen. This Translation team are sick.

Isn't that memory from when he was pilfering in her room shortly before the Nibelheim massacre? Teenage, Fake SOLDIER Cloud is standing there in the room while present day Tifa converses with Cloud's subconscious (the child form of Cloud).

That was his first time in her room -- when he went back to Nibelheim with Zack and Sephiroth.

May i ask a question?


Everyone seemed to agree that some scenes with multiple outcomes have canon scenes and some don't. This was pointed out by Tres, Ryu, even Anastar, myself, Gym Leader...


What is the appropriate response to this exactly? I mean you guys just kept posting it over and over and over and yelling it at each other, yet you were all agreeing on it... that's one thing that I really have to admit I don't get.

So you wanted her to explain why that scene didn't have a canon outcome to her despite these things right? YOu want her to explain her side of the story?

Yeah, pretty much. She was asked to offer criteria for determining an optional scene's canon outcome so many times and simply ignored those requests.

It was a simple request, and the answer is equally simple: if the consequences of a particular outcome are shown to be in play while describing later events, then that's how things went down. Also, if a particular version of events is outright said/shown to have occurred, then that's how things went down.

Examples of the former include Yuffie and Vincent joining AVALANCHE, Clasko being influenced to become a chocobo breeder, the "Deviation" choices for X-2 that lead to Tidus's resurrection, and Shadow surviving the Floating Continent.

Examples of the latter include Terra's revelation about love, FFV's Happy Ending, Tidus returning in X-2's ending (the U20 Scenario's story summary for that one even shows a screenshot of he and Yuna together along with a caption for it saying "Tidus is resurrected in the ending movie, in a connection to the very end of the previous work's ending"), and the high affection Highwind scene.

The story summaries for both the U20 Scenario and the 10th AU specifically identify the high affection version as part of the story, the "For the One I Love" page says it happened (and ironically, while the quote in the accompanying screenshot appears in either version of the scene, it's also this quote that appears in floating text beside of the similar screenshot on pg. 232 -- almost like we're supposed to connect the two! ), the Memorial Album says it happened, and the "Impressive Scenes" page for FFVII from the U20 selects it as one of four memorable scenes out of the entire game.

I mean, God's sake, what more does one need?

Well, there is actually more. The Ultimania Omega says Cloud's warm greeting to Yuffie when she returned to the airship the next morning was a result of the night he spent with Tifa (pg. 39).

In case no one remembers that exchange, here it is:

Cloud
Welcome back, Yuffie.
Yuffie
Gee, Cloud...... that's so nice of you to say that. ......You sick?

The UO quote is:

Yuffie is unaware that Cloud and Tifa had just spent the night together.

What in the low affection version would logically lend itself to Cloud being so chipper? What about the high affection version? Right, boinking the hot barmaid.

But, yeah, really -- the case for the high affection version's canonicity is very easily made, and actually has more individual pieces of support than the other confirmed canon outcomes I mentioned above.

Why did Anastar refuse to have a discussion about how canon outcomes are determined for scenes with optional elements? 'Cause she knows she's wrong.

Having a legitimate conversation with her about this is always going to experience a problem like being on a 56k connection, "not seeing" that particular point (no matter how many times its reposted by others), not finding the tone of the discussion civil enough, or some other convenient (there's that word again, Anastar) excuse.

I commend Que for her kindness and willingness to give absolutely anyone the benefit of the doubt. I try to do that as well. But you can only let someone take you for a ride on the chump bus for so long before you recognize their real intentions, call them on it, and send them on their sad, sad way.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Isn't that memory from when he was pilfering in her room shortly before the Nibelheim massacre? Teenage, Fake SOLDIER Cloud is standing there in the room while present day Tifa converses with Cloud's subconscious (the child form of Cloud).

That was his first time in her room -- when he went back to Nibelheim with Zack and Sephiroth.

No, it was the day of the bridge accident. It's from the Lifestream sequence, shortly before the 'I don't recall you ever' line.

EDIT:
The greater sequence from the script for greater context.

Third Cloud: ......a sealed up secret...... wish...... Tender memories......no
one can ever know.........

Kid Cloud: Do you know where this window goes to, Tifa? Fine...... I'll go.

We watch a movie of a view to Tifa's room.

Tifa: My room?

Kid Cloud: It was my first time there.

Tifa: Was... it?

Kid Cloud: I only used to look up at it from outside.

The kids and Tifa as a kid appeared.

Kid: Hey, look! Cloud's coming! You think he wants to come in?

Yeah, pretty much. She was asked to offer criteria for determining an optional scene's canon outcome so many times and simply ignored those requests.

She also repeatedly ignored several clarifications of wording, since acknowledging them would render the argument she was attempting to use moot.

Why did Anastar refuse to have a discussion about how canon outcomes are determined for scenes with optional elements? 'Cause she knows she's wrong.

Dingdingding!

Having a legitimate conversation with her about this is always going to experience a problem like being on a 56k connection, "not seeing" that particular point (no matter how many times its reposted by others), not finding the tone of the discussion civil enough, or some other convenient (there's that word again, Anastar) excuse.

Seriously. She runs a website and a forum. How the hell does she still only have 56K?
Her other two points are simply handwaves to ignore legitimate criticisms.
I've been saying this since before AC came out. It still holds true- 'Because you were mean' does not invalidate an argument, nor is it any excuse to ignore it.

I commend Que for her kindness and willingness to give absolutely anyone the benefit of the doubt. I try to do that as well. But you can only let someone take you for a ride on the chump bus for so long before you recognize their real intentions, call them on it, and send them on their sad, sad way.

I, on the other hand, have to wonder, why Quex is riding the chump bus still. Anastar revealed her hand pretty fully in this thread. Even if you wanna see the best in everyone, it's pretty hard to ignore the way she acted here, has acted before, and if she engages anyone in debate again, will continue to act.
But you know, I could be wrong. But she'd have to prove me wrong by acting in a perfectly forthright manner, taking her lumps, and soldiering on.

As a show of good faith, I actually replied to her entire reposted essay. Her response was to immediately cut off all communications with everyone who had taken issue with it in this thread apart from Quex.
That is not the action of someone seeking the truth. That is the action of someone trying to make the world see their truth and no other.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

No, it was the day of the bridge accident. It's from the Lifestream sequence, shortly before the 'I don't recall you ever' line.

EDIT:
The greater sequence from the script for greater context.

Looking at it that way, and rewatching it on YouTube, you may be right. It's kind of hard to tell, though, since -- if Cloud was with Tifa and her pals when they left her room -- he should have been with them at Mt. Nibel, but he follows from way behind the rest of them.

 

[Vendel]

Looking at it that way, and rewatching it on YouTube, you may be right. It's kind of hard to tell, though, since -- if Cloud was with Tifa and her pals when they left her room -- he should have been with them at Mt. Nibel, but he follows from way behind the rest of them.

Wait... You're over thinking this man. Why would young inner Cloud tell Tifa it was his first time in her room followed by a scene of Cloud wanting to come in her room, if it about a different event?

 

[Dashell]

I, on the other hand, have to wonder, why Quex is riding the chump bus still

Two words. We're friends. I think it would be slightly ridonkulous to say "That's it, I don't want to be your friend cause you don't debate a fictional character's love life properly with me!"

And honestly, even I admit she could have done better. Idk what happened, if she was overwhelmed or she really was being dishonest, but when she and I have debated any other place by email or PM or whatever, she's responded to everything. She's often misunderstood my points, but outright ignoring things isn't usually her style, at least not in my experience. So I don't feel she was being dishonest with me. But maybe I'm just not debating the right points

EDIT
and I found out she will be returning to this thread so forget what I said before

 

[Celes Chere]

Well, that's good news. Hopefully it goes better than before. >0>

 

[Ryushikaze]

Two words. We're friends. I think it would be slightly ridonkulous to say "That's it, I don't want to be your friend cause you don't debate a fictional character's love life properly with me!"

But far less ridiculous to go, 'Dude, you're being an idiot about this,' and have an intervention for lack of a better word.

And honestly, even I admit she could have done better. Idk what happened, if she was overwhelmed or she really was being dishonest, but when she and I have debated any other place by email or PM or whatever, she's responded to everything. She's often misunderstood my points, but outright ignoring things isn't usually her style, at least not in my experience. So I don't feel she was being dishonest with me. But maybe I'm just not debating the right points

She may not have been dishonest with you. But it felt she was being materially dishonest with myself and with Tres.

EDIT
and I found out she will be returning to this thread so forget what I said before

Pass along my advice to employ offline reply methods to craft her responses, then. She is in no obligation to hurry. Merely to respond comprehensively and in a forthright manner to critics of her argument, just as critics will be required to respond to her if she makes a counter argument to them.
This isn't an official rule. It's simply honest and polite.

 

[Anastar]

Two words. We're friends. I think it would be slightly ridonkulous to say "That's it, I don't want to be your friend cause you don't debate a fictional character's love life properly with me!"

And honestly, even I admit she could have done better. Idk what happened, if she was overwhelmed or she really was being dishonest, but when she and I have debated any other place by email or PM or whatever, she's responded to everything. She's often misunderstood my points, but outright ignoring things isn't usually her style, at least not in my experience. So I don't feel she was being dishonest with me. But maybe I'm just not debating the right points

EDIT: and I found out she will be returning to this thread so forget what I said before

Thank you very much, Quex. *hugs*

Okay, I've talked with Quex (Discord) about this situation via PM and on the CxA forum. We've agreed that Quex (Discord) will send me questions that people want me to answer by PM, and then I will respond in this thread.

She has already given me a bunch of questions, but I do not know who asked the questions. Therefore, I'm going to say that all quotes are by a Cloti. Sorry, but since I don't know who said what, that's the easiest way to do it.

So here goes:
===================

You also suddenly said there was slander and stuff in there and never responded to WHAT the slander was. It was just kind of random.

I will highlight anything in red that I consider slander.

But... (work with me) she said Clerith makes more sense to her. Clerith can not happen if the HA scene happens, so if she's saying Clerith makes more sense to her, that means the LA scene makes most sense. We wanted to hear why she thought this.

The LA version makes more sense to me because it shows they have no romantic interest in each other. It's not that they hate one another - they just have no romantic interest in each other.

I see that as making more sense because I never see Cloud displaying romantic interest in Tifa after the HW scene (or during or before, for that matter). They seem to be living together as friends, rather than as lovers. That's supported by things such as Tifa in CoT saying that the family is made up of friends, Marlene in CoT being the one to invite Cloud into the family, a JP magazine article saying that Cloud and Tifa were "more than friends, less than lovers" (http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff97/Alexa024/Morethanfriendslessthanlovers-2.png), Cloud and Tifa having separate bedrooms, CoT saying that Tifa always slept with Marlene before Denzel moved in, etc. I could go on, but I think that's enough to give the idea.

It also makes more sense because the only love I saw in FFVII was Cloud's love for Aerith. I never saw indication that Cloud loved Tifa during the game, except for his distant crush on Tifa as a kid.

And you're JUST NOW finally commenting on them, and even then only in part and with a total misrepresentation of the #*@$%'ing point?! You're actually going to throw out something like "What you said shows this had a canon ending. How does one scene with a canon ending mean that all scenes have a canon ending? That's like saying if one steak is cooked medium rare, then all steaks are cooked medium rare." Honestly, you can type this in and hit submit and be fine with that?

Yes, and I would repeat the same point again. Proving that the scene with Shadow has a canon outcome doesn't prove that the HW scene has a canon outcome.

Tres never said all scenes have a canon scene. He was making a point to show that just because there is a deviation of a scene in the game IT CAN HAVE A CANON OUTCOME. Just as you agreed, in that post right there, that Shadow's optional death/survival has a canon outcome.

So why does a canon ending to Shadow's death scene mean that the HW scene has a canon outcome?

And we know it has a canon outcome for the same reason we know the HW scene has a canon outcome.

Nope - that's where you're wrong. We know that Shadow's death scene has a canon outcome because we see Shadow alive at a later time. There's never a scene showing that Cloud loves Tifa after the HW scene, so it's never confirmed.

Tres, Ryu, GLD and myself wanted to know your standards for determining which scenes have a canon outcome, and which do not. At one point you even answered Tres' post but stopped right before this point was brought up. You said a couple things like if SE said, "This scene is canon" and that nothing to you seemed to prove it. They wanted to know what WOULD prove it. We can't prove it canon to you if we don't know what would make it canon to you. Like... obviously a "This is canon" would do it, but would a statement saying "This conversation Cloud and Tifa have later in the game related back to what was talked about in the HA Scene" mean anything?... obviously a kiss or something would, but is that it? Is it the same for every scene? I even said I wanted to have this conversation with you, but for whatever reason it didn't happen. We wanted to discuss this with you.

Shadow not dying in that optional scene is confirmed because we see him again later - alive. That confirms that he didn't die.

It's confirmed that a player gets Yuffie and Vincent in FFVII because they appear in AC/ACC and DoC.

In order for it to be confirmed that Cloud loves Tifa, then we have to see a scene after the optional HW scene that shows for sure that Cloud loves her. For example, the two of them kissing, or Cloud saying "I love you" to Tifa, for example. Nothing like that ever happens, so we don't know for sure that he loves her.

I can't think of a single thing that happens after the HW scene in FFVII, during the novella's, during AC/ACC, or during DoC that can only be explained as evidence that Cloud loves Tifa. For example, Cloud living with Tifa can easily be explained as them living together as friends. Living with each other in and of itself does not mean that Cloud loves Tifa.

And actually, I did answer that. In one post (I believe it was the one I didn't finish answering to Tres) I said something to this effect:

I'm not saying that the Low Affection version happened, but that either version could have happened. Nothing happens in the story that proves Cloud is in love with Tifa vs. Cloud is only friends with her. Cloud could still move in with her and Barret as a friend, Cloud could still start a family of friends with her, Cloud could still bring Denzel home if he was only friends with her, Cloud could still get Geostigma if he was only friends with Tifa, Cloud could still move into Aerith's Church if he was only friends with Tifa, etc. There's nothing that could happen ONLY if Cloud was in love with Tifa instead of being just friends with her.

That's the point. If something happened that proved they are in love, okay - then I'd buy that the High Affection scene is canon. But everything that happens could also happen if they are just friends. So either version could have happened.

Okay the question is not, "What would make the High Affection highwind scene canon?"
well I mean it IS but it also isn't at the same time...

It's "What criteria should be used for deciding which optional scenes are canon and which are not?" They're not talking just about the highwind scene, but about scenes in general. Don't answer the question here, but that's I think where lines got crossed. They assumed you were just saying "Well I didn't see this so it's not canon" whereas you were actually answering the question, just not quite the right question.

Either 1) something happens in the game which confirms it, or 2) it is blatantly stated by SE.

BTW, I do not think it was blatantly stated by SE on the FTOIL page in the 20th AU. To me, it was blatantly stated that there are optional versions of the HW scene and that a player can choose for Cloud to love either Aerith or Tifa.

Maybe it was too fast for you, and it took too long to load, but I that's why I pointed out important posts here:
http://thelifestream.net/forums/showpost.p...6&postcount=646

You said you would, but for whatever reason, you didn't. I found all the stuff they really wanted a response to.. but you didn't respond to it

In my last post to Tres, you, Gym Leader Devil, and that other person whose name I can't remember - at the bottom of that post I said something to the effect that I had intended to answer that at the time, but given that I had already spent 3 hours on the post, I was out of time. I was going to ask you to send it via PM so that I could answer it. Since that never happened, I'll answer it here:

Now, seriously, you can continue with this bullshit, truth obscuring focus on a misreading of Ryu's comments from almost two years ago (in which case you will also have to make the plainly absurd claim that the scene with Terra lacks a canon outcome, and that Shadow's death or survival on the Floating Continent lacks a canon outcome, and that FFX-2's story does not have a canon sequence of events; and I'm inflating the length of this sentence, underlining it and including bold and italics tags around the most vital words herein to emphasize that this is the most important sentence in this entire post and that I expect you to address it if you post a response -- or just not bother replying at all; for real) or you can discuss something constructive like what criteria should be used for deciding which optional scenes are canon and which are not.

Once again, I believe I answered the bit about which optional scenes are canon. The part highlighted in red is something I consider slander.

Even if this line of thinking was true, how does one go from 'mutually confirmed feelings of disinterest for each other' to 'Cloud feels he can succeed at his new life where previously he had failed because this time he will have Tifa by his side in a different way that before' How does mutual disinterest lead to the two of them deciding to form a family together, raise children together, and have a future together? 'Mutual disinterest' does not logically follow with the rest of the compilation.

1) This time he will have Tifa by his side
Let's look at that passage:

Meanwhile, Cloud was sitting next to her gazing at the same scenery but was smiling peacefully. It was a smile that she hadn't seen before during their journey. Cloud noticed her gaze and asked, "What's wrong?"
"Cloud, you're smiling."
"I am?"
"Yeah."
"Everything starts now. A new..." Cloud looked for the right words, "A new life."
"I'm going to live. I think that's the only way I can be forgiven. We've been through... all sorts of things."
"I guess you're right..."
"But when I think about how many times I've thought about starting a new life, it's funny."
"Why?"
"I've always failed to do it."
"That's not funny."
"...I think it will be all right this time."
Cloud became very quiet for a moment. Then he said, "Because you're always with me."
"I haven't always been with you."
"That's how it will be starting from tomorrow," Cloud replied smiling again.
Source: http://ffviinovels.lhyeung.net/caseoftifa/page03.php

1) First of all, Tifa doesn't respond as if Cloud means anything romantic by it. "I haven't always been with you" doesn't sound to me like she's taking it romantically. IF the HA HW scene had actually happened, then it seems to me that she would realize that Cloud meant it romantically.
2) Second, if Cloud meant that romantically, then how come Barret comes along with them? Seems to me that Cloud and Tifa would go off on their own if they had romantic intentions.
3) Third, neither of them have family to go back to - that's the same reason they stay behind at the HW together, whether they get the Low Affection or the High Affection version. Since it can be LA or HA for them to stay together at the HW, why can't it be LA or HA for them to stay together after FFVII?

2) in a different way than before
Where does it say "in a different way than before"?
The translation above is from here: http://ffviinovels.lhyeung.net/
I've always been told that's a reliable source. I see that Danna's translation at TLS translates it like this:

Cloud was silent for a long time before he spoke again.
“Because I have you this time.”
"You've always had me."
"What I mean is kind of different," Cloud answered with another smile.



I think it's strange that the translation is so different. As far as I remember, the translation at http://ffviinovels.lhyeung.net/ was updated with the revised edition.

At any rate, Cloud doesn't actually say that their relationship should be different than before. He says that what he means is different from the way Tifa took it. He does not say in what way it's different. Nor does he show in what way it's different. It's left up to speculation.

It could mean that he intends for them to start a romantic relationship, but we never see that confirmed in any way. Then again, it could also mean that it will be different because they won't be fighting battles every day like they did during FFVII. After all, he says a bit later after they visit Kalm that he wants to go back to their "suspended reality". When Barret asks what he means by that, Cloud says, "Or normal lives".

That sounds like something different to me - so that could easily be what he means.

3) How does mutual disinterest lead to the two of them deciding to form a family together?
You left an important word out. The phrase should be "mutual romantic disinterest". Having no romantic interest in each other doesn't mean that they aren't friends. Shrouded (a good friend of mine at the CxA forums) and I have no romantic interest in each other, but I consider us good friends. If he had no place to stay and he was in my area, he'd be welcome to live in my house in the guest bedroom for as long as he wanted.

Furthermore, Barret and Tifa lived together in Midgar before FFVII, and they seemed to be as close as family. Tifa was also helping raise Marlene at that time. Does that mean Barret and Tifa were in love?

Also, Cid and Shera were living together when Avalanche got to Rocket Town, but Cid had never forgiven Shera for the oxygen tank incident that prevented the rocket take off. He had absolutely no romantic interest in Shera until he found out that she had been right about the oxygen tank in Disk 2. We heard nothing about romantic interest between them until the novella's, actually. Yet, they were living together and Shera was cooking for him and keeping house for him like a wife.

4) deciding to form a family together
They didn't decide to form a family together. It was all Tifa's idea, and she wasn't sure how Cloud would feel about it. Marlene was the one to invite Cloud into the family, so it wasn't Cloud's idea.

"A family." (Tifa)
"Yeah." (Marlene)
Marlene cheerfully answered in response to Tifa's murmur.
"I'll put Cloud in our family too." (Marlene)
"I appreciate that." (Cloud)

After Cloud thanked Marlene's innocent offer with his serious face, he looked at Tifa. Tifa nodded a little. Would there be various problems arising after this? However, Tifa decided that she would stop worrying about the relationship between the two of them.

Furthermore, Tifa said that the family was made up of friends:

Friends were a necessity to me so that I could live on without being supressed by the sins in my consciousness. Even if they were fellow companions that had the same wounds. Even if they were fellow companions who were burdened with the same sins. We couldn't live without comforting each other and encouraging each other.

Maybe you could call that family. We just had to keep the family together and do our best.

Tifa thought she could get over anything being with friends that she could call family.

Cloud reinforced that idea in Dissidia 12 when he called Tifa his "nakama".

5) raising children together
- Where does it say they decided to raise children together? Does Cloud ever say to Tifa that he wants to have kids with her, or does Tifa say that to Cloud? As I remember, Barret asked them to take care of Marlene when he left Marlene with them. It wasn't really their choice. Then Cloud brought Denzel to the Seventh Heaven because he thought Aerith brought Denzel to him. He wanted to take care of Denzel because Aerith brought Denzel to him, not because he wanted to raise kids with Tifa.

6) have a future together
- Where does it say they will have a future together? Cloud says, "That's how it will be starting from tomorrow", but he doesn't say, "let's have a future together". If Shrouded moved into my house, I could suggest that we start a business together. If he agreed to that idea, I could say that's how it'll be starting from tomorrow. Does that mean we're in love?

Lines talking about romantic feelings
1. (U20 Scenario, pg. 394)
"VII - The night before the final battle
Thanks to Tifa, Cloud regains himself, and before the final battle with Sephiroth, without using words, he confirms with her that their feelings match."

We KNOW this one is romantic because it's on the FTOIL page.

Or it could mean either one, since there's a page reference at the top of the HW picture for page 232, where it specifies that there are two versions of the scene. Also, IIRC, the picture on the FTOIL page is found in both the LA and HA versions.

In addition, there's also a picture of Cloud and Aerith on the FTOIL page. The HW scene picture and the Clerith Date picture are the ONLY pictures on the page that are said to have deviations (according to a Clerith translator). FFVII is the only game on the page with two pictures showing Cloud with different women. That makes it pretty clear that there's two possible love interests. Since both are specified as optional, then it's also pretty obvious that the love interest is left up to player choice.

2. (FFVIIUO, pg. 27)
"If Tifa's affection regarding Cloud is high, when the two stay behind at the airship, they will confirm that their feelings of desire/wanting for one another match."

We know this is romantic because it's talking about the high Affection version.

And it specifically says "If Tifa's affection regarding Cloud is high", so we know that only happens in the High Affection version. It doesn't say that the HA version is canon, it just says what happens in the HA version. The FFVII UO also says this on page 198:

After stopping Hojo from going amuck, the conversation with Tifa before they rush into the Northern Crater diverges into two conditions, according to Tifa's affection rating for Cloud. When the affection rating is low, the conversation in the scene where they spend the night will be apathetic and ends quickly. ~page 198, Final Fantasy VII Ultimania Omega

So the FFVII UO specifically says that there are two versions depending on Tifa's affection rating. It does not say that one version is canon.

3. (FFVII 10th AU, pg. 118; pg. 120 in the Revised Edition)
"Cloud and Tifa, who remain, reveal their feelings for each other and confirm them to match."

Talking about the HA version.

How do you know this is about the HA version? It doesn't say HA version. It doesn't say that they confirm romantic feelings - it just says that their feelings match. Well, their feelings for each other match in the LA version, too.

ADDED NOTE: Quex said to me later that she knows it's talking about the HA version from the context of the page. As a result, I say that it has no bearing on whether or not the HA version is canon because the page specifies which version it's talking about.

4. (U20 Scenario, pg. 232; main body of story summary)
"And when Cloud and Tifa remain behind alone, in their final hours, they disclose that their feelings for each other match."

Talking about the HA version.

Again, there's no indication that it's talking about the HA version, so how does he know? It doesn't say "romantic feelings", so we don't know what kind of feelings they're talking about. Cloud and Tifa's feelings for each other match in the LA version, too.

ADDED NOTE: Again, Quex said to me later that she knows it's talking about the HA version from the context of the page. As a result, I say that it has no bearing on whether or not the HA version is canon because the page specifies which version it's talking about.

Quotes that don't say which feelings:

1. (FFVIIUO, pg. 15)
"Declares that the team should dissolve in the final hours before the final battle, and communicates his feelings together with Tifa, who remains behind at the airship with him."

2. (FFVIIUO, pg. 27)
"When Cloud proposes that the group separates temporarily, she remains behind at the airship and communicates her feelings together with Cloud. "

3. (FFVIIUO, pg. 198)
"When their companions disperse to the places where people important to them await, Cloud and Tifa are the only two to remain behind. They reveal their mutual feelings in their final hours, and......."

4. (CCU, pg. 33)
"She communicates her feelings together with Cloud in the final stages of the story, and in AC and DC they live together."

So HALF of the quotes posted talk about romantic feelings no ifs ands or buts. That's a lot if you ask me. So which makes more sense. That half the quotes are speaking of some feelings we don't know, or that they are all talking about the same thing?

I see no reason to comment on the quotes that show no feelings, since it just reinforces what I was saying before. When no feelings are specified, it could easily be talking about either the LA or HA version.

However, I will comment on the bolded part: "So HALF of the quotes posted talk about romantic feelings, no ifs ands or buts". Those half of the quotes are specified to be talking about the High Affection version, so that means romantic feelings happen ONLY in the High Affection version. How does saying what happens in the HA version mean that it's canon when it specifically says that it happens in the HA version only?

Once again, SE has clearly said that the Clerith date scene is default (and no, I don't think "default" and "canon" necessarily mean the same thing). If they're willing to say that the Clerith date scene is default, then it looks like they'd be willing to say that the HW scene has a canon version IF it really did have a canon version.

In a scene where all leave to find those most important to them, Cloud and Tifa remain behind to spend the night together.....to discuss how much they are not interested in each other?

Do you realize how little sense you make? [more slander]

If two people aren't interested in each other, then romance simply doesn't enter the conversation. It is assumed that unless two people do share their loveydovey feelings for each other, that they are NOT a couple. We do not need a whole #*@$%'ing declaration to tell us they aren't. I do not see Cloud and Yuffie holding conversations about their mutual disinterest in each other. Or Tifa and Barret.

First of all, I consider the part in red to be slander.

In the second place, you'll need to ask SE since I didn't create the scene. If SE calls the "Low Affection" version "Low Affection", then it means there is no romantic interest shown in that scene. A player gets the "Low Affection" version when Tifa's affection level is below 40 (IIRC). Tifa has a low affection rating for Cloud when Cloud doesn't show romantic interest in Tifa during the game. If Cloud doesn't show romantic interest in Tifa during the game, then he has no romantic interest in her. Therefore, their feelings are mutual.

SE's the one who created the LA scene, and they obviously made it because they wanted it to be optional whether or not Cloud shows romantic interest in Tifa. You'll have to ask SE why they created a scene where the two stay behind and disclose that they have no romantic interest in each other - not me.

What I think is obvious is that SE chose to make a demonstration of romance optional. If Cloti was supposed to be canon, then SE could easily have made the High Affection version non-optional. But SE wanted there to be an alternative. Cloud is able to show romantic interest in Tifa, but he doesn't have to. Therefore, romantic feelings for Tifa are optional.

Apparently, SE didn't want to create a non-optional scene where Cloud says he loves Tifa. That must mean that SE wanted to leave Cloud's love interest up to player choice.

=====================
That's all I'm answering for now because I've been working on this since 10:00 am and it's now 1:00 pm. That's enough for one day.

I will answer more as Quex provides questions for me and as I have the time to answer. I hope this format will work better for everyone.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Wait... You're over thinking this man. Why would young inner Cloud tell Tifa it was his first time in her room followed by a scene of Cloud wanting to come in her room, if it about a different event?

Yeah, good point. At first I thought that we were seeing Cloud in Tifa's room from the Kalm flashback, and that their conversation then segued into an illustration of how things were when Cloud was a kid, but if that were the case, it wouldn't have needed to lead to that specific memory about what happened on the day Tifa's mom died, would it?

So, yeah, you and Ryu are right. The first time he was in her room was on the day her mom died, and she probably had no memory of it because she was 1) upset to the point of crazy, and 2) suffered a coma-inducing fall before the day was over.

3. (FFVII 10th AU, pg. 118; pg. 120 in the Revised Edition)
"Cloud and Tifa, who remain, reveal their feelings for each other and confirm them to match."

Talking about the HA version.

How do you know this is about the HA version? It doesn't say HA version. It doesn't say that they confirm romantic feelings - it just says that their feelings match. Well, their feelings for each other match in the LA version, too.

ADDED NOTE: Quex said to me later that she knows it's talking about the HA version from the context of the page. As a result, I say that it has no bearing on whether or not the HA version is canon because the page specifies which version it's talking about.

And there you have it, folks. When a book summarizes FFVII's story, says that Cloud and Tifa confirm to one another that they feel the same about each other, and places that statement next to a screenshot from the high affection version -- all without ever mentioning the affection rating mechanic anywhere in the book -- it's not actually illustrating anything concrete about the story. In its summary of the story.

It doesn't have any bearing on whether the high affection version is canon because it's saying that the high affection version is canon. Don't you see? A statement that the high affection version is canon can't have any bearing on the canonicity of the scene because the high affection version can't be canon. It just can't!

Don't you all feel so silly now? You should. Silly peoples with your silly ideas about the high affection version being canon.

 

[OneWingedDemon]

ANASTAR:

Tifa has a low affection rating for Cloud when Cloud doesn't show romantic interest in Tifa during the game. If Cloud doesn't show romantic interest in Tifa during the game, then he has no romantic interest in her. Therefore, their feelings are mutual.

Incorrect. Tifa having feelings for Cloud is not optional. Even if you claim Cloud's feelings are, Tifa's are not. They are repeatedly referenced in not only the game, but everywhere else. Hell, this is in the game manual before you even begin the game. And it is stated again and again that BOTH ladies have feelings for him.

[FFVII] Both Aerith, who is forthright, and Tifa, who is demure, have feelings for Cloud but he is none the wiser to them. - 10th Anniversary

Tifa's feelings are never optional. They are fact.
Therefore, it is impossible that Tifa is romantically disinterested, as you claim, which makes “mutual romantic disinterest” an impossibility. I see, however, that you are also of the "Cloud rejects Tifa" school of thought. If Cloud rejects Tifa, then Tifa has feelings for Cloud, that he rejects. Therefore, once again, the feelings cannot be "mutual". You can't have it both ways, Anastar.


And I'm going to reiterate:

From the 10th anniversary Ulti.

[talking about Katou and Ikumori, event planner and movie designer of FFVII respectively]

Nomura: Now he’s the movie director on DC and CC.
Kitase: Katou also did the event on the airship, the night before the final battle.
Nojima: Oh, the scene with the risqué line of dialogue?​

For Nojima, the Highwind scene is synonymous with “scene with risque dialogue”. That's how the staff know the scene under the Highwind before the final battle. That's the one that happened. That is the version they include in the summary of the game.



An optional scene needs not be included in the same way that no one gives a crap if Cloud gives the flower to Marlene or Tifa (an optional gesture you earlier equated to the Highwind scene). You don't see SE waxing poetic about that scene. If SE, as you say, wanted whether or not Tifa and Cloud shared feelings to be optional, they would not point it out as often as they do and certainly not in the manner they do.

 

[Fairheartstrife]

Cloti wrote

Anyone else find that a wee bit insulting? Anastar, if you can't bother directing your replies respectfully to the specific parties involved, then you really need not bother at all. You can whine all you want about slander--to which I've seen NONE--but you can't expect anyone to take you or your arguments seriously when you exhibit such nonsensical rebuttals. Astonishing as it may be, not everyone that believes Cloud and Tifa are canon are actually Clotis or have a shipping preference. It may be hard to imagine people arguing the LTD without some obsessive self insert emotional investment, but really, it's true.

I would hope that you would give the same amount of respect you hope to receive.


ps. you may want to grab a dictionary and look up 'slander', just so you actually know what it is.

 

[Celes Chere]

All Cloti supporters obviously think and act the same and are Tifa loving lackeys. I thought you knew that, FHS? I mean, gawd.

 

[Fairheartstrife]

All Cloti supporters obviously think and act the same and are Tifa loving lackeys. I thought you knew that, FHS? I mean, gawd.

I don't love Tifa. Just her boobs.


Kinda like Cloud.

 

[Dashell]

Anyone else find that a wee bit insulting?

Oh for god's sake, and right after she asked me "Will it be offending if I put Cloti?" and I said no. I didn't know who said what and told her just putting "Cloti" would be okay cause I was too lazy to look it back up. JFC you guys.