I will highlight anything in red that I consider slander.
What you consider slander is what they, I'm sure, would consider calling a spade a spade.
Nope - that's where you're wrong. We know that Shadow's death scene has a canon outcome because we see Shadow alive at a later time. There's never a scene showing that Cloud loves Tifa after the HW scene, so it's never confirmed.
An interesting standard. But your alternate proposition given below- mutual romantic disinterest- is definitely contradicted by later scenes. And everything we've been told.
Shadow not dying in that optional scene is confirmed because we see him again later - alive. That confirms that he didn't die.
It's confirmed that a player gets Yuffie and Vincent in FFVII because they appear in AC/ACC and DoC.
In order for it to be confirmed that Cloud loves Tifa, then we have to see a scene after the optional HW scene that shows for sure that Cloud loves her. For example, the two of them kissing, or Cloud saying "I love you" to Tifa, for example. Nothing like that ever happens, so we don't know for sure that he loves her.
So, he can't decide he wants to have Tifa by his side, form a family with her, have a future with her, or any of that?
He has to kiss her to demonstrate he loves her?
Question- why is Aerith exempt from this? Cloud does not kiss her ever, so why can you conclude (granting for the sake of the argument at this point that he loved her as one time) he loves her post-mortem? Would this be a double standard, Anastar?
I can't think of a single thing that happens after the HW scene in FFVII, during the novella's, during AC/ACC, or during DoC that can only be explained as evidence that Cloud loves Tifa. For example, Cloud living with Tifa can easily be explained as them living together as friends. Living with each other in and of itself does not mean that Cloud loves Tifa.
Try looking at evidence in aggregate. No evidence exists in isolation. It all forms a coherent web. Expecting a single silver bullet 'proof' from your opposition is silly. It's literally what fundamentalist creationists do.
And actually, I did answer that. In one post (I believe it was the one I didn't finish answering to Tres) I said something to this effect:
I'm not saying that the Low Affection version happened, but that either version could have happened. Nothing happens in the story that proves Cloud is in love with Tifa vs. Cloud is only friends with her. Cloud could still move in with her and Barret as a friend, Cloud could still start a family of friends with her, Cloud could still bring Denzel home if he was only friends with her, Cloud could still get Geostigma if he was only friends with Tifa, Cloud could still move into Aerith's Church if he was only friends with Tifa, etc. There's nothing that could happen ONLY if Cloud was in love with Tifa instead of being just friends with her.
This argument- weak as it is- cuts both ways. Just remember that. Remember, never offer as an argument anything you don't want used against your position.
That's the point. If something happened that proved they are in love, okay - then I'd buy that the High Affection scene is canon. But everything that happens could also happen if they are just friends. So either version could have happened.
It can't. Actually. And one of the quotes you keep mangling actually kinda proves it can't.
Either 1) something happens in the game which confirms it, or 2) it is blatantly stated by SE.
BTW, I do not think it was blatantly stated by SE on the FTOIL page in the 20th AU. To me, it was blatantly stated that there are optional versions of the HW scene and that a player can choose for Cloud to love either Aerith or Tifa.
No. The FTOIL page 'blatantly states' that Cloud and Tifa confirm mutual romantic feelings without words. P232 says there are two versions, and in one feelings are shared strongly. p232 also says, as a point of the story itself, that Cloud and Tifa confirm mutual feelings for each other without words. The High Highwind scene is listed as one of the most important scenes of FFVII.
If that's not 'blatantly stating' that it happened, we're moving into the 'press release' mentality I mock every so often.
Now we're to the part that you quoted from me. I see that you've decided to answer each quote piecemeal, rather than consider a greater context.
1) This time he will have Tifa by his side
Let's look at that passage:
Meanwhile, Cloud was sitting next to her gazing at the same scenery but was smiling peacefully. It was a smile that she hadn't seen before during their journey. Cloud noticed her gaze and asked, "What's wrong?"
"Cloud, you're smiling."
"I am?"
"Yeah."
"Everything starts now. A new..." Cloud looked for the right words, "A new life."
"I'm going to live. I think that's the only way I can be forgiven. We've been through... all sorts of things."
"I guess you're right..."
"But when I think about how many times I've thought about starting a new life, it's funny."
"Why?"
"I've always failed to do it."
"That's not funny."
"...I think it will be all right this time."
Cloud became very quiet for a moment. Then he said, "Because you're always with me."
"I haven't always been with you."
"That's how it will be starting from tomorrow," Cloud replied smiling again.
Source:
http://ffviinovels.lhyeung.net/caseoftifa/page03.php
1) First of all, Tifa doesn't respond as if Cloud means anything romantic by it.
"I haven't always been with you" doesn't sound to me like she's taking it romantically.
IF the HA HW scene had actually happened, then it seems to me that she would realize that Cloud meant it romantically.
Anastar, you argued 'mutually confirmed disinterest.' I'm calling goalpost shift on this one.
2) Second, if Cloud meant that romantically, then how come Barret comes along with them? Seems to me that Cloud and Tifa would go off on their own if they had romantic intentions.
Barret leaves them a week after he helps build their new house. He later refers to them as being together, with Cid commenting that Tifa wears the pants in their relationship.
3) Third, neither of them have family to go back to - that's the same reason they stay behind at the HW together, whether they get the Low Affection or the High Affection version. Since it can be LA or HA for them to stay together at the HW, why can't it be LA or HA for them to stay together after FFVII?
Here's the thing, though. HA and LA don't change the actual affection in the narrative. The affection value is a meaningless point value which decides the outcome of a minigame. It actually translates into their world than HP and MP do.
2) in a different way than before[/B]
Where does it say "in a different way than before"?
The translation above is from here:
http://ffviinovels.lhyeung.net/
I've always been told that's a reliable source. I see that Danna's translation at TLS translates it like this:
Cloud was silent for a long time before he spoke again.
“Because I have you this time.”
"You've always had me."
"What I mean is kind of different," Cloud answered with another smile.
I think it's strange that the translation is so different. As far as I remember, the translation at
http://ffviinovels.lhyeung.net/ was updated with the revised edition.
New information has been added, but the revisions haven't been made as far as I can determine.
At any rate, Cloud doesn't actually say that their relationship should be different than before. He says that what he means is different from the way Tifa took it. He does not say in what way it's different. Nor does he show in what way it's different. It's left up to speculation.
But there is such a thing as reasonable speculation, and speculation within context. Remember, Cloud smiles both at the idea of starting a new life with Tifa, and when saying he means it's different than the way he's had her before.
It could mean that he intends for them to start a romantic relationship, but we never see that confirmed in any way. Then again, it could also mean that it will be different because they won't be fighting battles every day like they did during FFVII. After all, he says a bit later after they visit Kalm that he wants to go back to their "suspended reality". When Barret asks what he means by that, Cloud says, "Or normal lives".
That sounds like something different to me - so that could easily be what he means.
You keep giving us 'it sounds like to me' and 'could' arguments without substantiation beyond your assertion or any consideration as to narrative likelihood.
3) How does mutual disinterest lead to the two of them deciding to form a family together?
You left an important word out. The phrase should be "mutual romantic disinterest".
YOU left out an important word, then. YOU were the one who gave us mutually confirmed disinterest. And again this doesn't work in the context of Canon. Tifa still has feelings for Cloud. Those aren't optional. Hell, even Cloud's for Tifa aren't, since we have the 'became aware of the feelings he was holding' line refering to the 'He'll be so pleased' line from the lifestream.
Regardless, Tifa still likes Cloud romantically, so 'mutual romantic disinterest' is still a non argument.
Having no romantic interest in each other doesn't mean that they aren't friends. Shrouded (a good friend of mine at the CxA forums) and I have no romantic interest in each other, but I consider us good friends. If he had no place to stay and he was in my area, he'd be welcome to live in my house in the guest bedroom for as long as he wanted.
And would you take care of the child of a third friend together? Or a child he picked up off the street?
Furthermore, Barret and Tifa lived together in Midgar before FFVII, and they seemed to be as close as family. Tifa was also helping raise Marlene at that time. Does that mean Barret and Tifa were in love?
Ah, yes, this old canard. Funny how everyone thinks 'Tifa was helping raise Marlene,' but not Biggs, Wedge, or Jessie.
Also, Cid and Shera were living together when Avalanche got to Rocket Town, but Cid had never forgiven Shera for the oxygen tank incident that prevented the rocket take off. He had absolutely no romantic interest in Shera until he found out that she had been right about the oxygen tank in Disk 2.
You say that he had none of this based on what, exactly?
We heard nothing about romantic interest between them until the novella's, actually. Yet, they were living together and Shera was cooking for him and keeping house for him like a wife.
So, wait, you're arguing that because we don't hear about romantic interest until later, it couldn't have existed at the earlier time?
4) deciding to form a family together
They didn't decide to form a family together. It was all Tifa's idea, and she wasn't sure how Cloud would feel about it. Marlene was the one to invite Cloud into the family, so it wasn't Cloud's idea.
"A family." (Tifa)
"Yeah." (Marlene)
Marlene cheerfully answered in response to Tifa's murmur.
"I'll put Cloud in our family too." (Marlene)
"I appreciate that." (Cloud)
After Cloud thanked Marlene's innocent offer with his serious face, he looked at Tifa. Tifa nodded a little. Would there be various problems arising after this? However, Tifa decided that she would stop worrying about the relationship between the two of them.
You're taking a four year old as more authoritative than the U10, now? I mean, Marlene's a smart kid and she means well, but she is FOUR.
And the creators say
"The present Tifa isn’t just Cloud’s childhood friend, but also the mother of the ‘family’ they were forming in Edge." - Tifa's U10 profile.
Furthermore, Tifa said that the family was made up of friends:
Friends were a necessity to me so that I could live on without being supressed by the sins in my consciousness. Even if they were fellow companions that had the same wounds. Even if they were fellow companions who were burdened with the same sins. We couldn't live without comforting each other and encouraging each other.
Maybe you could call that family. We just had to keep the family together and do our best.
Tifa thought she could get over anything being with friends that she could call family.
Referring to her time with AVALANCHE, rather than the new life and new family.
Cloud reinforced that idea in Dissidia 12 when he called Tifa his "nakama".
Right, you've referenced a random Japanese word without giving me any reference as to its meaning. Give me any reason why I should treat this as anything other than a smokescreen.
And for the reference, I know what it means. You still ought to provide a translation.
5) raising children together
- Where does it say they decided to raise children together? Does Cloud ever say to Tifa that he wants to have kids with her, or does Tifa say that to Cloud? As I remember, Barret asked them to take care of Marlene when he left Marlene with them. It wasn't really their choice. Then Cloud brought Denzel to the Seventh Heaven because he thought Aerith brought Denzel to him. He wanted to take care of Denzel because Aerith brought Denzel to him, not because he wanted to raise kids with Tifa.
As with your Shroudypoo hypothetical above, would you not utter a word of protest if FFG dropped a kid off for the two of you to take care of for the forseeable future, and would you agree to take care of a child he brought home off the street?
6) have a future together
- Where does it say they will have a future together? Cloud says, "That's how it will be starting from tomorrow", but he doesn't say, "let's have a future together". If Shrouded moved into my house, I could suggest that we start a business together. If he agreed to that idea, I could say that's how it'll be starting from tomorrow. Does that mean we're in love?
This one you have no excuse for missing. Not only because we've been arguing over the contents of this book for half a decade, but also because it's in english. Reunion Files. P18. "She has a long history of memories with him that are linked to their future." It's only in the first quote in the Tifa section. Wonder how you could miss that.
Or it could mean either one, since there's a page reference at the top of the HW picture for page 232, where it specifies that there are two versions of the scene. Also, IIRC, the picture on the FTOIL page is found in both the LA and HA versions.
THUS INVALIDATING YOUR ARGUMENT!
Thanks for playing, would you like a copy of our home game?
IF A) Feelings are shared on both versions and B) the FTOIL page doesn't care which version is occuring, then Conclusion) Romantic feelings are shared in both high and low affection versions.
In addition, there's also a picture of Cloud and Aerith on the FTOIL page. The HW scene picture and the Clerith Date picture are the ONLY pictures on the page that are said to have deviations (according to a Clerith translator). FFVII is the only game on the page with two pictures showing Cloud with different women. That makes it pretty clear that there's two possible love interests. Since both are specified as optional, then it's also pretty obvious that the love interest is left up to player choice.
Except, no. Even when one travels to the page and sees the information on the dates, not only does it repeat the 'how Cloud acts yadda yadda' it still only talks about what the women and barret are interested in. It never mentions a return of feelings for Cloud, who is canonically oblivious to their intentions at this time.
Meanwhile, p232 which you love to trumpet so very much, STILL mentions mutually confirmed feelings without words. It stresses the confirmation, not the optionality. And Tifa's CCU profile says She and Cloud confirm their 'feelings for each other' at the end of the story. Disinterest isn't a feeling. It's a lack of feelings.
And it specifically says "If Tifa's affection regarding Cloud is high", so we know that only happens in the High Affection version. It doesn't say that the HA version is canon, it just says what happens in the HA version. The FFVII UO also says this on page 198:
After stopping Hojo from going amuck, the conversation with Tifa before they rush into the Northern Crater diverges into two conditions, according to Tifa's affection rating for Cloud. When the affection rating is low, the conversation in the scene where they spend the night will be apathetic and ends quickly. ~page 198, Final Fantasy VII Ultimania Omega
So the FFVII UO specifically says that there are two versions depending on Tifa's affection rating. It does not say that one version is canon.
We don't need to have that particular place say it- BTW, thank you for providing the quote that renders your 'apathetic feelings' argument null and void. The conversation is apathetic and ends quickly. Nothing said about apathetic feelings or the like.
We KNOW that feelings are shared, from the CCU if nowhere else (and we do have other places). We know that in one version feelings are shared strongly -P232 U20). We know that in another version the conversation is apathetic and short (Not the feelings, the conversation)- p298 UO. Anastar, you're simply refusing to recognize the forest for the trees here.
We KNOW A) that Feelings are confirmed. B) Feelings are confirmed in one version. C) The conversation is apathetic and short in the other. This does not lead us to the conclusion that neither version is canonized, but the opposite. Feelings occur. If feelings occur only in one version, THAT VERSION HAPPENED.
How do you know this is about the HA version? It doesn't say HA version. It doesn't say that they confirm romantic feelings - it just says that their feelings match. Well, their feelings for each other match in the LA version, too.
You keep asserting this. It continues not to be true. I would like you to very explicitly detail what quotes make you think the LA version is also mutual, and if you try and use the 'conversation is apathetic and short' quote, I will know you are being disingenuous.
ADDED NOTE: Quex said to me later that she knows it's talking about the HA version from the context of the page. As a result, I say that it has no bearing on whether or not the HA version is canon because the page specifies which version it's talking about.[/quote]
So, you think that the page saying 'Dude, this totally happened' has no bearing on whether or not it actually happened.
We're getting very silly now. Very very silly.
Again, there's no indication that it's talking about the HA version, so how does he know? It doesn't say "romantic feelings", so we don't know what kind of feelings they're talking about. Cloud and Tifa's feelings for each other match in the LA version, too.
ADDED NOTE: Again, Quex said to me later that she knows it's talking about the HA version from the context of the page. As a result, I say that it has no bearing on whether or not the HA version is canon because the page specifies which version it's talking about.
'Feelings are mutual in the LA version too' is an odd new mantra you have going here. But it's still not true.
I see no reason to comment on the quotes that show no feelings, since it just reinforces what I was saying before. When no feelings are specified, it could easily be talking about either the LA or HA version.
Because...?
However, I will comment on the bolded part: "So HALF of the quotes posted talk about romantic feelings, no ifs ands or buts". Those half of the quotes are specified to be talking about the High Affection version, so that means romantic feelings happen ONLY in the High Affection version. How does saying what happens in the HA version mean that it's canon when it specifically says that it happens in the HA version only?
And what about the other half that AREN'T specifically the HA version but ARE still about romance?
Once again, SE has clearly said that the Clerith date scene is default (and no, I don't think "default" and "canon" necessarily mean the same thing). If they're willing to say that the Clerith date scene is default, then it looks like they'd be willing to say that the HW scene has a canon version IF it really did have a canon version.
So, Aerith's date being 'default' means something, but you think they ought to be willing to say that the HA version is canon if it has one?
Maybe by listing that version as one of the four most important scenes in the game- maybe by referring to it casually in an interview, maybe by releasing quotes that honestly make arguments against its canonicity look extremely silly as they try and assert conclusions counter to the very evidence they provide?
Or do we simply need a press release for this again?
Funny how C/T moments always need press releases, but never C/A ones. It's, well, it's frankly an amazing double standard.
First of all, I consider the part in red to be slander.
That's not slander. Even in the Colloquial sense, saying 'You make no sense' is no slander.
In the second place, you'll need to ask SE since I didn't create the scene. If SE calls the "Low Affection" version "Low Affection", then it means there is no romantic interest shown in that scene.
Sorry, English language calling- Low!= no. When I'm in low gear on my car, I still have a gear.
A player gets the "Low Affection" version when Tifa's affection level is below 40 (IIRC). Tifa has a low affection rating for Cloud when Cloud doesn't show romantic interest in Tifa during the game. If Cloud doesn't show romantic interest in Tifa during the game, then he has no romantic interest in her. Therefore, their feelings are mutual.
So, I CAN Make Cloud and Barret fall in love during the game, is that what you're saying?
If so, I need to rename this thread to account for the new Polyhedral.
SE's the one who created the LA scene, and they obviously made it because they wanted it to be optional whether or not Cloud shows romantic interest in Tifa. You'll have to ask SE why they created a scene where the two stay behind and disclose that they have no romantic interest in each other - not me.
Actually, it's still you. Because you're the one who says that this is what happens there. No one else has. SE definitely never has. All they've said is that the LA version conversation is apathetic and short. Not that anyone's feelings in it are. But again, this is akin to the bad end of 10-2. They put that in the game for a reason, too.
What I think is obvious is that SE chose to make a demonstration of romance optional. If Cloti was supposed to be canon, then SE could easily have made the High Affection version non-optional. But SE wanted there to be an alternative. Cloud is able to show romantic interest in Tifa, but he doesn't have to. Therefore, romantic feelings for Tifa are optional.
By this argument, Gilgamesh appearing in the world of FFVIII is optional. You don't HAVE to get Odin before heading to Fight Seifer.
Apparently, SE didn't want to create a non-optional scene where Cloud says he loves Tifa. That must mean that SE wanted to leave Cloud's love interest up to player choice.
Except one can offer a choice with a right answer and a wrong answer, or in this case, a canon and a non canon answer. Your own evidence shows that this is the case. See the forest for the trees, Anastar.
That's all I'm answering for now because I've been working on this since 10:00 am and it's now 1:00 pm. That's enough for one day.
I will answer more as Quex provides questions for me and as I have the time to answer. I hope this format will work better for everyone.
It took you three hours to write that?
It took me maybe an hour and a half to respond. With liberal breaks.
Nomura didn't seem picky making Ingus/ Serah, Cecil/ Rosa, Squall/ Rinoa and more canon.
In the interests of further truth, Nomura had JACK DIDDLY to say about Ingus/Sarah and Cecil/Rosa. He wasn't even with Square until one game later, and then as a map and monster designer.
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