The Love Triangle Debate thread of KNEEL BEFORE ZOD OR SUFFER HIS WRATH (ignore the opening posts at your peril) (Round 6)

[Zee]

Technically he insults her and then laughs about it.

He mocks her, she gets him into women's clothing and mocks him...

I bet if they'd stayed together they'd be like Dr. Cox and Jordan.

It just seemed like an odd thing to emphasize when we should all know it already.

I feel that way about 90% of these Ultimania quotes anyway though.

 

[Elisa Maza]

^
^ Cloud doesn't flirt. He doesn't know how. Not even with his supposed to be I'm-so-cool-and-badass-SOLDIER persona.



I was wondering about this clarification as well. I was reading the lines, totally minding my own business about Cloud's rare smiles and stuff and then the Ult goes and says: "He laughed with Aerith when the Jenova was in control yadda, yadda" and I'm like "Wha--? Why the clarification? O_o"

I always thought, however that it implied that laughing out loud is out of character for Cloud. He doesn't laugh loudly, throwing his head back. Like "You see Cloud laughing here? Yeah, that's not like him, he laughs like that when drunk, or when controlled, or something."

 

[Fairheartstrife]

He mocks her, she gets him into women's clothing and mocks him...

I bet if they'd stayed together they'd be like Dr. Cox and Jordan.

Thank you for being one of the few people that understand 'insult' and 'mocking' aren't necessarily character bashing and vile things. Cripes people--he mocked her. He also says he's not sure about getting help from a 'girl'. Has options to call her the slum drunk, mock Barret as a Bear wearing a marshmallow, tell Don Corneo he's interested in a man named Barret and be a general dickhead. The boy can be flagrantly insulting in this game. Deal with it.

 

[Zee]

@ Seras: I reaaaally doubt that laugh was Jenova. I mean yeah the dude has some trouble expressing emotion but that doesn't make him entirely incapable of smiling or laughing, just that those occassions are rare.

I mean his emulating Zack seemed mostly his version of what an ideal Solider would be but just made him look like a jackass
And Jenova was the part of his responsible for the batshit crazy moodswings

I don't see either of those warring sides responsible for laughter unless he totally cracked like the soft eggshell he is.

 

[Tifabelle]

o.O "insulting" is a negative term. Calling Aerith a slum drunk is insulting, saying Barret looks like a bear in a marshmallow is mocking, saying to Aerith about being cut out for SOLDIER is teasing.

 

[Celes Chere]

I bet if they'd stayed together they'd be like Dr. Cox and Jordan.

Cloud and Tifa would be like Carla and Turk, huh?

I CAN SEE IT.

^ Cloud doesn't flirt. He doesn't know how.

You can flirt without realizing it. And I do think he has SOME comprehension of it. Especially going off of he's got some of Zack's persona in him. Zack is a total flirt. Anyway Cloud is awkward, but he's not an idiot.

, however that it implied that laughing out loud is out of character for Cloud.

Agree. ;P

 

[Fairheartstrife]

@ Seras: I reaaaally doubt that laugh was Jenova. I mean yeah the dude was some trouble expressing emotion but that doesn't make him entirely incapable of smiling or laughing, just that those occassions are rare.

I think we all agree it was Cloud. The contention is why there was need for clarification, and how OOC it really is for him. He's not really the OMGLOLWTFBBQ type, and I think the comment was just to emphasize that he wasn't 100% himself. Not that he wasn't genuinely amused or having a good time. I dunno. Maybe we're all over thinking it.

 

[Elisa Maza]

@ Seras: I reaaaally doubt that laugh was Jenova. I mean yeah the dude was some trouble expressing emotion but that doesn't make him entirely incapable of smiling or laughing, just that those occassions are rare.

I mean his emulating Zack seemed mostly his version of what an ideal Solider would be but just made him look like a jackass
And Jenova was the part of his responsible for the batshit crazy moodswings

I don't see either of those warring sides responsible for laughter unless he totally cracked like the soft eggshell he is.

I don't mean that he cannot enjoy a moment, I mean laughing out loud with his head back, shoulders shaking, etc. I see Cloud being more reserved in his expressions, but this doesn't mean he doesn't feel deeply whatever he feels, no. This laugh included.

The fact that he laughed wasn't from Jenova/Zack's persona/whatever, no. The way he laughed was him impersonating Zack, IMO.

EDIT: ninja'd by FHS. (Please, I love you, but get out of my head )

 

[Zee]

Maybe we're all over thinking it.

#this thread

 

[Fairheartstrife]

o.O "insulting" is a negative term. Calling Aerith a slum drunk is insulting, saying Barret looks like a bear in a marshmallow is mocking, saying to Aerith about being cut out for SOLDIER is teasing.

Insult: to affront or demean. To act arrogantly. To offend by action or remark.

I'd say he insulted her... teasingly. Was it completely mean-spirited? No. But it's still an insult. Take it how you want, you're not changing my mind on it. You can infer whatever you like from that scene. It really doesn't hold any importance one way or another because Cloudy-boy is a fruit cracker at the time. Which is why it's not a good fall-back to support a pairing argument.

 

[Marle]

Men have a funny way of flirting anyways. Insulting and mocking us as a form of affection. Idgi either but I've experienced it as I'm sure we all have

 

[aerbear]

I don't know how anyone can dislike Tifa. She puts her friends in the first place, and forgets about her own problems/feelings. She have a beautiful heart, and she's always caring and loving. She's also strong and cheerful, as Cloud described her.

I see her as being a bit negative.

Aerith, well.. she have the same qualities. I like her even more than Tifa, to be honest. But you gotta admit that she flirts a lot with Cloud, and infront of Tifa too. Which of course, makes her jealous and hurts her like a human being.

Tifa was also a little mean to her after they met.
Aerith: "The deal was for one date, right?"
Tifa: ".........oh, I get it."
Aerith: "Tifa? Tifa, you're there too!"
Tifa: "EXCUSE me." Jeez, Tifa!

In general though, I don't think Aerith means to hurt Tifa's feelings. They both just get jealous at some point.

But things do start to work again between them in AC.

We just see Cloud get better and know he's going to join his family/friends again. Romantically? In my opinion... I just don't see it.
Please, nobody shoot me. xD

Also no matter what version of the HW scene you get three months after FFVII ends Cloud is living with Tifa.......

So you can't live with somebody you aren't going out with?

Nothing in either HW scene explains that. It isn't said that they'll live together in either one, with or without Barret, help take care of Marlene, etc.

So? What does a dating mini-game with arbitrary mechanics have to do with the story of FFVII or if Tifa loves Cloud? Getting Barret or Yuffie doesn't affect the lifestream sequence for example.

I think she means if Tifa's affection is as low as zero, Tifa won't really act on her feelings. So we won't know if Cloud likes her back, because that whole exchange only happens in the HA version, where her affection rating is needed!

If it's about C/T then it must mean friendship right? Unless it means Cloud is Tifa's son of course.

Or Yuna and Brother

And now that I think about it, why doesn't Denzel know the rest of his family in AC/C? Tifa has to tell them they are their friends. Why didn't she say "oh that's the rest of your family silly"?

She does connect, in Case of Tifa, a family of friends, so in calling them their friends, this could still mean to calling them family.

I don't have to prove that it is meaningless. That's a given. You should let us know why it is important. But then we already know the answer to that don't we? Because anything that is slightly anti-C/T is acceptable right? While pro-C/T material has to be dissected and run though multiple filters to glean the meaning.

To be fair, any pro-C/T material is skyrocketed to Cybertron and anti-C/T or pro-C/A is ignored or passed off as guilt. When Cloud is said to have feelings, unspecified what they are, for Aerith and Tifa, it's generally assumed it's only romantic in Tifa's case, and only friendly in Aerith's. The word "feeling" never changes, so why do our opinions?

Well Marlene wasn't there under the Highwind.....

Let's take this moment to thank Square Enix for this small miracle.

I'll get to AerBear and Anastar's tiddlywinks later.

My tiddlywinks are waiting.

And yeah, I do believe Cloud's laugh is genuine there. Just not to forget that he's under Jenova's influence. Not that the laugh came from Jenova.

 

[Fairheartstrife]

She does connect, in Case of Tifa, a family of friends, so in calling them their friends, this could still mean to calling them family.

Deflection. This still doesn't address how her 'son' wouldn't know them. He's been with them for quite some time at this point. He's part of her 'immediate family.' One would, logically, assume that if Tifa's 'family' was the all-inclusive friends group Denzel would at least be aware of them.

To be fair, any pro-C/T material is skyrocketed to Cybertron and anti-C/T or pro-C/A is ignored or passed off as guilt. When Cloud is said to have feelings, unspecified what they are, for Aerith and Tifa, it's generally assumed it's only romantic in Tifa's case, and only friendly in Aerith's. The word "feeling" never changes, so why do our opinions?

Are you being serious? A statement declaring wanting to spend the rest of their life with someone is skyrocketed by comparison to 'I want to get to know the real you'. Are you fucking kidding me? And no one here (well, maybe Vendel) is going to argue that in-game Cloud, pre-lifestream event didn't harbor interest in Aerith. Liking, sure. Maybe wanting to bone, all right. But after Cloud is Cloud again, that is shot to shit. Will Aerith always be special to him. Absolutely. Did he love her? No.

I've yet to see you even come close to meeting the same or even similar requirements to establish a love interest between Cloud and Aerith. Let's assume that both girls want Cloud's Buster Sword (a given, really), please feel free to give me examples of Cloud returning or expressing a desire to be with Aerith romantically. Take your time, I'll wait.

 

[aerbear]

Deflection. This still doesn't address how her 'son' wouldn't know them. He's been with them for quite some time at this point. He's part of her 'immediate family.' One would, logically, assume that if Tifa's 'family' was the all-inclusive friends group Denzel would at least be aware of them.

In Case of Tifa, Tifa says she feels happy knowing she has her family of friends. Denzel becomes a part of her family. There isn't any specific separating of that family and the "immediate family."

Are you being serious? A statement declaring wanting to spend the rest of their life with someone is skyrocketed by comparison to 'I want to get to know the real you'.

Did I compare it to "I want to get the know the real you"?
And there's only something suggestive about saying you want to be with someone for the rest of your life if you see it. Like when a person tells a, for example, brother they hope they stay together forever. Does that mean the person is horny for their brother?
It's a loving thing to say, not always romantic.

Are you fucking kidding me? And no one here (well, maybe Vendel) is going to argue that in-game Cloud, pre-lifestream event didn't harbor interest in Aerith. Liking, sure. Maybe wanting to bone, all right. But after Cloud is Cloud again, that is shot to shit. Will Aerith always be special to him. Absolutely. Did he love her? No.

Are you fucking kidding me? I was making a point about when people take feelings in different context. I have my view, you've got yours. That isn't okay?

I've yet to see you even come close to meeting the same or even similar requirements to establish a love interest between Cloud and Aerith. Let's assume that both girls want Cloud's Buster Sword (a given, really), please feel free to give me examples of Cloud returning or expressing a desire to be with Aerith romantically. Take your time, I'll wait.

I'm not trying to prove Cloud loves Aerith in that way here, or trying to justify it to you. If I give my point of view, that's all it is - my point of view. I'm trying to prove that Cloud and Tifa aren't "canon." That's all I'm not trying to be mean or hostile or anything like that.

 

[Fairheartstrife]

In Case of Tifa, Tifa says she feels happy knowing she has her family of friends. Denzel becomes a part of her family. There isn't any specific separating of that family and the "immediate family."

Does there really NEED to be? Do you actually believe people need someone to spoon feed context to them? If you can't honestly see the unspoken separation of 'family of friends' and 'immediate family' I can't be bothered to try and have any form of debate with you because I don't have the time or the patience to hand-hold someone through Lit 101.

Did I compare it to "I want to get the know the real you"?

No, you claimed that Cloti evidence was exaggerated while Clerith evidence (ha!) was minisculed. I offered up one comparative quote.

And there's only something suggestive about saying you want to be with someone for the rest of your life if you see it. Like when a person tells a, for example, brother they hope they stay together forever. Does that mean the person is horny for their brother?
It's a loving thing to say, not always romantic.

So a guy that had a HUGE crush on you as a child, joined the military to impress you, spent his youth trying to live up to what he thought you wanted him to be, whom you've actually just shared mutual romantic feelings with (no matter what version you think is canon, Tifa loves Cloud) says to you that he wants to spend the rest of his life with you and it's NOT romantic??? He just wants to play house as siblings??? Are you seeing how fucking stupid that sounds? And assuming the scenario played out like that, you have a guy that KNOWS the chick wants him. Knows she cares about him romantically suggesting they live together, but you know, only as a family of friends... That guy is the biggest douchebag on Gaia and there's notta you can say to redeem that character at that point. So, we have the logical inference of romantic intent, or Cloud is a fucking waste of a character. Bravo on that argument.

Are you fucking kidding me? I was making a point about when people take feelings in different context. I have my view, you've got yours. That isn't okay?

Not when you can't support your view.

I'm not trying to prove Cloud loves Aerith in that way here

Good thing...

or trying to justify it to you.

of course not.

If I give my point of view, that's all it is - my point of view.

unsubstantiated and unsupported within compilation, okay, got it.

I'm trying to prove that Cloud and Tifa aren't "canon."

Bang up job so far.

That's all I'm not trying to be mean or hostile or anything like that.

Sorry but you offhandedly implying Ryu--and by extension some others--were cynical thundercunts may have colored my view of your sunshine and rainbow tactics. Apologies if I was incorrect. I'm not hostile either. I just say fuck a lot.

 

[Marle]

I know none of this was directed at me or anything and I don't mean to overhwlem you, Aerbear (if it is getting overwhelming, only say the word and I shall be gone ) but I just wanted to make one little comment:

Did I compare it to "I want to get the know the real you"?
And there's only something suggestive about saying you want to be with someone for the rest of your life if you see it. Like when a person tells a, for example, brother they hope they stay together forever. Does that mean the person is horny for their brother?
It's a loving thing to say, not always romantic.

I am a cloti fan. I see it as canon. I also believe the Aerith date is canon, that Aerith and Cloud would have had a good relationship together had she lived, that she truly did love Cloud for Cloud and that Cloud was most definitely interested in her and that he will never forget her. I also like to believe that, had she lived, clerith would be canon.

In the past back when I was immature, silly and only had FF7 to work with, I didn't believe it was possible for Aerith to love Cloud, that it made no sense seeing as how she never knew him. But CC came out, AC/C came out and the novellas came out and I took what SE presented and believed it. She loved him and she did come to know him for who he was, just not while she was actually alive but later.

So, maybe because I see things this way, I don't understand how when Cloud tells Tifa, his romantic love interest- not his sister, not his mother, not his relative of any sort, but his dear friend and girl he has held affection for at some point in his life- that he wants to be by her side forever, I find it so difficult to believe it can be argued against.

She is not his sibling. She is a love interest. If Cloud had said these words to a living Aerith, would they not have seemed romantic? I would think so. Because Aerith, like Tifa, is not his mother, sister or whatever you wanna call her. She was also his romantic love interest and for him to say that to her would imply romance, not a sisterly bond.

Also, wanting to spend the rest of your life with someone does not necessarily mean you want to 'bone' them. It means that you cannot see your life without them. That they fit in perfectly and that they keep you happy. Their presence on a daily basis will enhance your life and that whatever horrors and wonders life brings, together you will succeed and thrive.

That is all.

 

[Dashell]

When Cloud is said to have feelings, unspecified what they are, for Aerith and Tifa, it's generally assumed it's only romantic in Tifa's case, and only friendly in Aerith's.

It was stated to be romantic in Tifa's case 4 times, so there's no assuming here. I don't see any quotes that say Cloud had romantic feelings for Aerith, but feel free to prove me wrong

 

[Celes Chere]

y implying Ryu--and by extension some others--were cynical thundercunts

as much as I hate the word 'cunt' I thought that was funny, lol. Worse has been said in these threads.

 

[Elisa Maza]

So a guy that had a HUGE crush on you as a child, joined the military to impress you, spent his youth trying to live up to what he thought you wanted him to be, whom you've actually just shared mutual romantic feelings with (no matter what version you think is canon, Tifa loves Cloud) says to you that he wants to spend the rest of his life with you and it's NOT romantic??? He just wants to play house as siblings??? Are you seeing how fucking stupid that sounds? And assuming the scenario played out like that, you have a guy that KNOWS the chick wants him. Knows she cares about him romantically suggesting they live together, but you know, only as a family of friends... That guy is the biggest douchebag on Gaia and there's notta you can say to redeem that character at that point. So, we have the logical inference of romantic intent, or Cloud is a fucking waste of a character. Bravo on that argument.

THIS. Oh my God, so, SO THIS!


This is what I've been saying since twenty pages ago or so and it cannot be stressed enough.

SE hasn't said that Cloud and Tifa are canon and I think that they never will. However, they have presented a situation where they have to be, otherwise it's a disservice (at least!) to the characters. Not because I, the CloTi fan say so, but because the story and narrative say so.

Seriously, if Cloud has zero interest in Tifa (regardless of whether he masturbates to Aerith's memory or not) and he lives in such a situation (as FHS described in the quoted part of her post) with her, then he is a colossal douche and Tifa is a waste of space.

And this is definitely not how SE presents them.



Also, general comment: if Cloud and Tifa shared "mutual feelings of disinterest" (wat) under the Highwind, that would imply that Tifa fell out of love with him during the game. Apart from the fact that this didn't happen in any point in the OG, the U20 page about romantic love talks about how the characters' feelings progress and grow and the characters themselves come closer as well. Such a journey wouldn't fit any "mutual feelings of disinterest" whatsoever. Yet, the LA Highwind scene is referenced in the U20 with a number on that page that talks about growing romantic feelings, so I think we can safely assume that even in the LA, no rejection whatsoever took place. Cloud and Tifa's romantic feelings grew as the other couple's. The HA is the scene where they successfully communicate them and the LA where they don't, but this doesn't mean that the journey of their feelings didn't happen.

/brain vomit

 

[Fairheartstrife]

Cloud and Tifa's romantic feelings grew as the other couple's. The HA is the scene where they successfully communicate them and the LA where they don't, but this doesn't mean that the journey of their feelings didn't happen.

/brain vomit

You know, call me crazy, but I always assumed the versions only differed in one way. 'You heard' versus 'you saw'. HA: They have sex. LA: They hint about their feelings. I really, really don't get where LA= no feelings comes in... That just makes no sense.

 

[Wolfmania]

So a guy that had a HUGE crush on you as a child, joined the military to impress you, spent his youth trying to live up to what he thought you wanted him to be, whom you've actually just shared mutual romantic feelings with (no matter what version you think is canon, Tifa loves Cloud) says to you that he wants to spend the rest of his life with you and it's NOT romantic??? He just wants to play house as siblings??? Are you seeing how fucking stupid that sounds? And assuming the scenario played out like that, you have a guy that KNOWS the chick wants him. Knows she cares about him romantically suggesting they live together, but you know, only as a family of friends... That guy is the biggest douchebag on Gaia and there's notta you can say to redeem that character at that point. So, we have the logical inference of romantic intent, or Cloud is a fucking waste of a character. Bravo on that argument.

I Think this here pretty much settles this.

Why? Because there's simply no way to refute this argument if you are faithful to the source material.

That would make Cloud the number one most idiotic douchebag that ever has been made in gaming. Not to mention shows Tifa's character as ignorant to the fact Cloud would be jerking off to Aerith's memory.

Would anyone who has played the game, read CoT, and saw AC class Cloud -the real Cloud- in this level of abject fuckness?

So It's either one or the other, really. I'll go with the one where Cloud is mostly portrayed as he is by SE. The guy who is a dork, sometimes painstakingly dense, but a good guy who would never put Tifa through a situation such as the above.

 

[Zee]

The HA is the scene where they successfully communicate them and the LA where they don't, but this doesn't mean that the journey of their feelings didn't happen.

/brain vomit

That's pretty much how I viewed those scenes.

I mean in the end it doesn't really matter which scene you got anyway since the compilation just sorta glosses over it and leaves us at CoT.

 

[Anastar]

NOTE: I was going to answer some other questions from Quex today - but then I got this PM about a post from Ariadne that Quex said was "urgent" to answer. So I'm going to answer it today. Sorry, but other responses will have to wait.

Ariadne

My last point: you asked me what would make me think the HA version (or any optional version) is canon. I told you that I would consider it canon if 1) one version is canonized by a later event - that is, something happens later which indicates that only one version could possibly have happened, or 2) if SE blatantly says that one version is canon.

You said here yourself that your criteria for determining the canon outcome of a player-influenced event ... could be met by SE blatantly saying that one version happened.

Sorry, Tres, but that's not what I said. I said it could be met by SE saying which version is canon. I didn't say "which version happened".

Saying that a scene is canon is different than saying it happened. I would bet you're saying, "What the hell is the difference?" The difference is that BOTH the LA version and HA version happen. SE may use only one version in the story summary, but does that mean it's canon? Not to me.

I need a comment by SE that says something like, "Even though two versions exist for the HW scene, the version where Cloud and Tifa share their love for one another is considered the actual outcome that takes place before AC/ACC." That doesn't just say it happened - it says that one version is actually canon.

That's what I'm talking about.

Furthermore, I'm saying that your story summary is actually contradicted by the quotes in both the U20 on page 232 and on page 198 in the FFVII UO where it says that the scene divergences into two conditions according to Tifa's affection rating with Cloud. By saying that the scene diverges into two conditions according to Tifa'a affection rating with Cloud, that says to me that there is no canon version.

On top of that, there is evidence in the Compilation after the HW scene that contradicts the HA version. (I mention some examples below.)

I also asked both Discord and OWD the same thing - but are you saying that your quote is more valid than mine? My evidence comes from the U20 and the FFVII UO. If you ask me, that evidence is just as legitimate as your evidence from the U!0.

And, yet, despite having said you would acknowledge a blatant statement, you're not doing so.

A story summary with a picture is not a statement saying that a scene is canon, especially when official SE sources also say that the scene has two optional outcomes, and there's evidence in the games/movies/novella's that contradicts what you claim is the "canon" outcome.

Because you claim that some books acknowledging the existence of both versions disqualifies a statement from another book that one version in particular happened. Really, more than just one other book since the Memorial Album goes with the high affection scene only, and since it was selected as one of the four Impressive Scenes in the U20.

But the HW scene wasn't selected as an important highlight of the story in Reminiscence. The HW scene wasn't mentioned anywhere in AC/ACC, the novella's, or DoC.

Instead, there's evidence in those parts of the Compilation that the LA version happened instead of the HA version, such as Cloud and Tifa having separate rooms in CoT, Marlene sleeping with Tifa in CoT, Tifa saying that the family is made up of friends in CoT, and Cloud thinking of Aerith first when Sephiroth asks who Cloud cherishes most.

If SE wanted to canonize a love relationship between Cloud and Tifa, they wouldn't be including things like that in the story line. Nothing has been confirmed, either in the Ultimania's or in the Compilation.

Did you see the quote that Sesc provided earlier a few posts back?

中川：ところで、セフィロスは今まで何人の女の子と付き合ったことがあるんですか？


野村：スゴイ質問だなぁ。考えたこともないですね。正直、僕は誰と誰が付き合っているとかっていうのは、どうでもいいんですよね。ゲームや映像で描 かれていないところは、好きに想像して楽しんでもらったほうがいいと思ってます。想像の余地があるもののほうが終わったあとに友達と話していて楽しいです し。たとえばクラウドとティファが「AC」までの２年間に恋愛関係にあったのか？とかよく聞かれたりもしますが、僕は知らないです。


「ゲームや映像で描 かれていないところ、好きに想像して楽しんでもらったほうがいいと思ってます」

"From what’s not already depicted in the games and film, interpret/imagine it as you like..."

「たとえばクラウドとティファが「AC」までの２年間に恋愛関係にあったのか？とかよく聞かれたりもしますが、僕は知らないです。

Then Nomura further says he doesn’t know if Cloud and Tifa were in a romantic relationship in the two years prior to AC.

Nomura says right there that he's not sure there was a romantic relationship between Cloud and Tifa in the years prior to AC. Why doesn't he know if the HA version is canon?

Another contradiction.

Really, that's your argument that the 10th AU is unreliable: if SE has ever at any point acknowledged the existence of both versions of the Highwind scene, then they can't ever identify one version as canon.

Yes? No?

Of course they can even if they talk about the existence of both scenes. However, they need to specify that one is canon, state that one is canon, and discuss the fact that it's canon - not just use one version in a story summary with a picture. That's not nearly enough, IMO.

Don't get me wrong: if there were multiple passages that contradicted each other, I'd be right there with you in saying that the matter is inconclusive.

IMO, there are multiple passages that contradict one another.

By your own claim, however, there's no contradiction with the Highwind quotes since you say that any reference to the sharing and confirming of feelings could be speaking of either version. If that were true, and even if we pretended the Memorial Album and Impressive Scenes pages did not exist, we'd be left with a lot of quotes that could indicate either version, and then one that is specific.

Do I understand you correctly? It sounds like you're saying that just one version is specific. Is that what you mean?

The specific one would be enough, wouldn't it? You said a blatant statement would be enough to confirm an optional outcome as concrete, and yet you're saying it isn't enough in this case.

I hope I clarified why it isn't enough earlier in this post.

And does confirming an outcome for the Highwind scene in one official source not shine any light on the implications of the other quotes, those that you say could be ambiguous?

Like I said earlier, I don't think a canon outcome is confirmed by your source. The evidence doesn't correspond to what I was asking for.

If you're looking for SE to use the term "canon," that just isn't going to happen.

I'm looking for SE to be as clear as they were about the Clerith date scene being default. Seems to me that if they were that specific once, they can be that specific again.

Also, seriously: you can't pretend the story summary from the 10th AU is irrelevant

I didn't say it was irrelevant. I said it doesn't prove anything, especially when there's other sources contradicting the idea that the HA version is canon.

when, in literally the same post, you attribute unparalleled significance to an unverifiable interpretation of an image of Aerith standing in a flower field, which has already long since been retconned away by ACC anyway.

SE took out one image of Aerith and replaced it with several images, along with other characters in the film like Tifa. However, SE still left Cloud in Safe and Sound on Fenrir riding around flowers that represent Aerith instead of having him ride back to the Seventh Heaven. If SE wanted to show Cloud moving on with Tifa, then why didn't they show him going back there?

SE also still showed a flower on Cloud's desk before going to Safe and Sound, so we know he stopped in the flower fields representing Aerith.

So the emphasis is still on Aerith in the ending instead of Tifa.

 

[Fairheartstrife]

SE took out one image of Aerith and replaced it with several images, along with other characters in the film like Tifa. However, SE still left Cloud in Safe and Sound on Fenrir riding around flowers that represent Aerith instead of having him ride back to the Seventh Heaven. If SE wanted to show Cloud moving on with Tifa, then why didn't they show him going back there?

SE also still showed a flower on Cloud's desk before going to Safe and Sound, so we know he stopped in the flower fields representing Aerith.

So the emphasis is still on Aerith in the ending instead of Tifa.

Ignoring the head-to-wall conversation between you and Tres, I have to just say: WUT?

First of all Safe and Sound wasn't the AC end song. Calling was. ACC replaced it. And if you listen to the lyrics it's hardly any kind of romantic ballad.

We don't know shit about him stopping in flower fields. We do know the flowers on his desk are the same that are growing from the ground where he retrieved Zack's sword...you know, where he took Denzel...after he RETURNED to SEVENTH HEAVEN to get him.

We also know that he CALLS HOME to ask Tifa to close the bar and take the day off so they can have some FAMILY time. Where the holy materia do you get AERITH being the focus?? Seriously that's star-reaching if I've ever seen it. It's bordering on fanatical, to be honest. Let it go. Seriously.

 

[Ryushikaze]

It wasn't so much crying, but whining. That was maybe bad wording on my part.

Then please, do demonstrate in the narrative this whining.

I meant that it's what it's known for, because it's "suggestive." I don't think that's the reason it could be important. If you like those two, then it's very important to you. But some people only see that fade to black.

Then those people are missing that the scene itself holds risque dialogue, that the scene itself holds the content. The pan and fade merely leads to the conclusion of other things happening based on the fact that the dialogue as it exists is risque, but that is not risque on its own, that it must indicate some other action to be risque.

That doesn't make it okay.

It doesn't make you unduly persecuted either, which is my point. I've been called many terrible things both directly and as part of an aggregate in my time on the internet. It happens.

Then I misunderstood what responses you were referring to.

From what I saw, your first responses did get a couple of responses. I only popped in on the Aerbear hug one because I thought there was no need to address the earlier points.

The rebuttal was about the Highwind scene, mostly. And that's nothing new.

Not in the slightest. It contained a rebuttal to her argument about the highwind scene, but it also included a request to provide a positive case for the pairing, instead of relying on a negative case against the other pairing. Then came her C/Ped essay, which itself contained many examples of disingenuous arguments, including quote mining half of a sentence to prove a point.

She can't be expected to make perfect points. She's just giving her own. Nothing wrong with that.

She should, however, be expected not to make points which directly contradict her other points, or statements which disavow her own words.

My bad, OneWingedDemon! Sorry.

We know the canon ending is to bring Tidus back because of International + Last Mission - she's living with him, three months after X-2 ends.

As mentioned, this can change.

The same can't be said for the HA version. Nothing that happens after depends on the High Affection version. And just because the HA version is referenced the most and might be a favorite of the creators doesn't mean it's canon. If one of them came out and said they like Cloud and Aerith as a pairing the best, that wouldn't make Cloud and Aerith canon. It's all about the events in the story.

It is about the events in the story. And the HA version has been called one of the most important scenes of the that story, it's been said that feelings are shared that night, that feelings are shared if the AV is high, and the conversation is apathetic if they are low, that nothing is shared. It's been included in a story summary. We have more than sufficient information to conclude it happened as an event IN the story.

He's one creater. You said creators. Do the other ones like this scene?

They think it's one of the four most important scenes in the game.

He didn't write that scene.

I never said he did. I said he was head writer. That means he lays out the broad plan of the story and knows what the narrative will be. He was also the sole writer of the OTWTAS novellas and AC/C.

That makes it canon? Because that's what came to his mind first?

Not because it's what came to his mind first, but because to him, 'Highwind sequence' and 'scene with the risque dialogue' are synonymous.

If someone asked him about the optional characters in FFVII, and he said "Oh, you mean Vincent?" Would this mean it isn't canon to get Yuffie, because she wasn't mentioned? This is only hypothetical, but do you understand where I'm going?

Yes, I do, but it's a bit of a false analogy.
In your scenario, we're establishing that the automatic association between optional characters and Vincent, that Vincent is THE example of optional characters in the game. That's what stands out to him as a creator.
With the highwind sequence, a fellow creator asked him about the Highwind scene, and he immediately jumped to the version with Risque dialogue. That's THE example of that scene in his head.

My impression of her isn't in line with yours, but I didn't just come up with it. If that's how I see her, and that isn't how you see her, so be it.

Actually, no, I'm curious. I want to see this supported. If you didn't 'just come up with it' it should be supportable.

Then I didn't mean to fascinate you.

But you did.

This will turn into bashing and I don't want to do that here.

See, this I also find interesting. If it's a legitimate interpretation backed by facts, it wouldn't be bashing, yet you yourself describe it as such.

Still isn't quite what I meant, but I'm glad your mind is boggled. Boggle away.

I shall, while I wait for your explanation.

With the help of kids?

Sometimes, yes. Children have an amazing ability to cut through nonsense that keeps people from realizing the root of their problems. Cloud and Tifa's problems are not with each other, but problems each- mostly Cloud- face that act as obstacles in their relationship.

Mentioned this above ^.^

I'm aware. And you agree with my point in general. But you refuse to apply it here, which is odd to me.

I make sure of it but it happens anyway, because some people are born douchebags.

True, but there's a proverb about 'If you are called a donkey by one man, ignore it. If a second man calls you a donkey, take heed. If a third man calls you a donkey, search for a cart.'
While argumentum ad populum is a bad method for determining veracity, if enough people are having issue with what you say, make sure your case is strong.

We can assume she could be the personal memory because she is a part of their memories, including Clouds. Tifa is also associated with his memories because of their promise in the past and being her neighbor growing up. But neither is definite. He could be fighting for Zack or getting revenge for Nibelheim. He doesn't say.

Jessie could ALSO be the personal memory. It's not bloody likely, though. At some point you need to move into the realm of probability. Some things are simply more likely than other things, and someone rather ham-fistedly associated with Cloud's 'sealed up secret wish' and 'tender memories' is much more likely to be a personal memory than someone not referred to as such.

It's all about how you interpret the game. There is a way to view it where you will see what I see. But you see something else and that's okay.

Not all interpretations are valid. So, Again, I say "So prove it. No quote mines, no twisting quotes, no wild speculation, simple facts and logical conclusions from those facts." I'll add the logical principle of parsimony into the equation as well.

I haven't misspoken.

You said "Because Square Enix doesn't say it's up to the players." If you wish to imply the opposite, your punctuation needs correcting.
You misspoke. I seized upon it for my amusement and a counterpoint.

(Thank you, Sesc! I was looking for the original Japanese statements.)

Nothing to add to my points ABOUT those statements? Because they don't say what you said they said.

Excuse my sarcasm, then.

I was mostly being sarcastic.

But you were being sarcastic against a version of her points other than what she was actually expressing.

Anyway, I'm only saying that the High Affection and Low Affection versions of the Highwind scene don't affect any later event, from what we can see. And since there are two versions and they're optional, there's nothing to indicate which version canonically happens. I'm not going to believe it's canon just because there's nothing saying otherwise. That's a belief that belongs with "Well, you never said I couldn't take a giant dump on your lawn."

As I mentioned in a post after this one, by your logic, there is no canonical list of which party members ascended Kefka's tower and fought him. Affecting future events is not the only possible way to determine if something is canon or not. Knowing an outcome in a bivariable state is sufficient. If we know X happened, and X only happens if Y happens, then Y happens. We have sufficient quotes to demonstrate this is the case for the High Highwind scene and for Tina's expression of love for the children, or Shadow's potential death, and multiple other events. We know an outcome. Not how it affects later events, but that an outcome happened.

I didn't mean that the person Cloud goes to the Gold Saucer with is the person that he likes. I was saying that you said the date mechanics don't have an affect, but they also play a part in which Highwind version you get, and to you the High Affection one is canon, and the affection rating supposedly determines if you get that scene.

But the narrative importance of the scene is divorced from the mechanistic method of determining which scene was acquired, which is entirely the point.

I see her as being a bit negative.

Again, please provide examples of such.

Tifa was also a little mean to her after they met.
Aerith: "The deal was for one date, right?"
Tifa: ".........oh, I get it."
Aerith: "Tifa? Tifa, you're there too!"
Tifa: "EXCUSE me." Jeez, Tifa!

Um, She's just been ignored in conversation. That's Aerith being mean if anyone.

In general though, I don't think Aerith means to hurt Tifa's feelings. They both just get jealous at some point.

We just see Cloud get better and know he's going to join his family/friends again. Romantically? In my opinion... I just don't see it.
Please, nobody shoot me. xD

Pistols at ten paces.

So you can't live with somebody you aren't going out with?

No. But she's living with a man who she canonically has romantic feelings for. And he would know she had them. He became aware of them a short time ago.

Nothing in either HW scene explains that. It isn't said that they'll live together in either one, with or without Barret, help take care of Marlene, etc.

Well, partly because that's irrelevant to the scene, and partly because the novella wouldn't be written for another decade. The point, I'm assuming, was the the positive

I think she means if Tifa's affection is as low as zero, Tifa won't really act on her feelings. So we won't know if Cloud likes her back, because that whole exchange only happens in the HA version, where her affection rating is needed!

Which MEANS that IF Tifa never acts on her feelings, she never confesses, thus no feelings are shared, thus that version DID NOT HAPPEN because FEELINGS ARE SHARED THAT NIGHT, PERIOD END OF.
This is like what I said earlier about not seeing the forest for the trees.
Incidentally, Tifa not acting on her feelings is A MATERIALLY different claim than a 'confirmation of mutual romantic disinterest.'
Watch those goalposts shift.

Or Yuna and Brother

Bad example. Brother has far more than cousinly feelings for Yuna.

She does connect, in Case of Tifa, a family of friends, so in calling them their friends, this could still mean to calling them family.

But the family of friends is a contrast to the current family, the 'real' family.

To be fair, any pro-C/T material is skyrocketed to Cybertron and anti-C/T or pro-C/A is ignored or passed off as guilt. When Cloud is said to have feelings, unspecified what they are, for Aerith and Tifa, it's generally assumed it's only romantic in Tifa's case, and only friendly in Aerith's. The word "feeling" never changes, so why do our opinions?

Tifa's Feelings are canonically romantic. Hence, mutual confirmation of those feelings includes romance.
Feelings FOR Aerith, meanwhile, have consistently been associated with Cloud's guilt over letting her die. He wants her forgiveness, she's the symbol of his guilt, etc. etc. etc.

My tiddlywinks are waiting.

Your tiddlywinks have been tiddlied.

Anastar, I have been informed by a very sexy spy that you ARE aware of the response to your essay. Please, do get on actually responding to the totality of my rebuttal.
I also have been told that you have rejected being included in a story summary as indicating the actual flow of events.

At this, I must simply conclude you have never been interested in determining the Truth, but protecting your own prefered version of events, because you've literally rejected a summary of the narrative as being an actual summary of my narrative.

I also note you used the phrase "in what you're calling Cloud's "office" to describe Cloud's office as if this was some invention of ours. It is not. The very text refers to it as Cloud's office on several occasions.

For the record, beds in offices are not unheard of. In my life, my father has had several home offices. Most of these have been guest bedrooms as well, including the one I sleep in when I am visiting my parents. That one has a Full or Queen Sized bed. It is still merely his office, and not where he sleeps. It even has an amoire and dressers, things which the office entirely lacks.

I do not expect you to respond, honestly. You seem to not want to respond to the points I am making. I will simply take this as indication of your fear of actually answering them honestly.

I may respond to Anastar's points later, but she seems determined to argue the party line rather than actually debate honestly.