If you can't honestly see the unspoken separation of 'family of friends' and 'immediate family' I can't be bothered to try and have any form of debate with you because I don't have the time or the patience to hand-hold someone through Lit 101.
I don't think what I said really warranted that but okay...
No, you claimed that Cloti evidence was exaggerated while Clerith evidence (ha!) was minisculed. I offered up one comparative quote.
When I elaborated on it, I mentioned the "feeling" thing.
"
Cloud and Tifa confirm their feelings to match."
OH MY GOD KIDS, IT'S LOVE. IT'S LOVE!
"
Cloud carries his undying feeling for Aerith even to this very day."
IT'S OKAY GUYS, IT'S A GUILT TRIP.
So a guy that had a HUGE crush on you as a child, joined the military to impress you, spent his youth trying to live up to what he thought you wanted him to be,
If he had to try that hard just to get her to notice him, there's a reason I don't like them together.
He just wants to play house as siblings??? Are you seeing how fucking stupid that sounds?
When I brought up a brother, I said
for example. Was there a simile or metaphor comparing that with
their relationship?
And assuming the scenario played out like that, you have a guy that KNOWS the chick wants him.
"
Both Aerith, who is forthright, and Tifa, who is demure, have feelings for Cloud but he is none the wiser to them."
unsubstantiated and unsupported within compilation, okay, got it.
And yours is nothing but pure champion stuff.
Kudos for the observation.
Sorry but you offhandedly implying Ryu--and by extension some others--were cynical thundercunts may have colored my view of your sunshine and rainbow tactics. Apologies if I was incorrect.
I didn't mean to insult Ryu, and if Ryu took any direct offense to that, I hope he/she will tell me.
as much as I hate the word 'cunt' I thought that was funny, lol. Worse has been said in these threads.
Thundercunt - The pinnacle of all English swearwords, thundercunt is phoenetically, spiritually, grammatically, and socially the worst thing you can ever say. Much like a Holy Hand Grenade or the most powerful zord from Power Rangers, it should only be used in times of extreme need.
If it isn't known, "thundercunt" isn't supposed to be serious here, and I wasn't directing it towards any one person. I was saying, if we can't make jokes we should be cynical thundercunts.
(I don't like the word 'cunt' either, but thundercunt? Unforgettable
)
Could have fooled me.
And I just fuck
around a lot, but you seem to be taking it seriously too.
]I know none of this was directed at me or anything and I don't mean to overhwlem you, Aerbear (if it is getting overwhelming, only say the word and I shall be gone
)
Aww don't worry about it
I also believe the Aerith date is canon, that Aerith and Cloud would have had a good relationship together had she lived, that she truly did love Cloud for Cloud and that Cloud was most definitely interested in her and that he will never forget her. I also like to believe that, had she lived, clerith would be canon.
I agree!
She is not his sibling. She is a love interest. If Cloud had said these words to a living Aerith, would they not have seemed romantic? I would think so. Because Aerith, like Tifa, is not his mother, sister or whatever you wanna call her. She was also his romantic love interest and for him to say that to her would imply romance, not a sisterly bond.
I understand.
Also, wanting to spend the rest of your life with someone does not necessarily mean you want to 'bone' them. It means that you cannot see your life without them. That they fit in perfectly and that they keep you happy. Their presence on a daily basis will enhance your life and that whatever horrors and wonders life brings, together you will succeed and thrive.
Hallelujah
I like everything you said wholeheartedly. But while I
don't think that they're "canon", per say, and I don't personally see them in that kind of relationship, still, thank you!
Then please, do demonstrate in the narrative this whining.
That would turn into bashing and
I don't want to do that here.
Then those people are missing that the scene itself holds risque dialogue, that the scene itself holds the content. The pan and fade merely leads to the conclusion of other things happening based on the fact that the dialogue as it exists is risque
And this is what the scene is known for.
It doesn't make you unduly persecuted either, which is my point. I've been called many terrible things both directly and as part of an aggregate in my time on the internet. It happens.
Well I don't want to have that kind of conversation with you. We haven't said terrible things to each other, have we?
From what I saw, your first responses did get a couple of responses. I only popped in on the Aerbear hug one because I thought there was no need to address the earlier points.
I didn't see those responses until I had already responded to something else.
Not in the slightest. It contained a rebuttal to her argument about the highwind scene, but it also included a request to provide a positive case for the pairing, instead of relying on a negative case against the other pairing. Then came her C/Ped essay, which itself contained many examples of disingenuous arguments, including quote mining half of a sentence to prove a point.
I do see where you're coming from, very much so, but quote mining may be her way of getting her own interpretation of the actual quote. It wouldn't be the first time its been done and so long as we know the actual quotes, it's okay for her arguments sake.
She should, however, be expected not to make points which directly contradict her other points, or statements which disavow her own words.
I still don't think she means to be contradicting of herself, just trying to get things across, but it's hard to do that. Debating is really hard, to be honest.
They think it's one of the four most important scenes in the game.
Okey dokey.
Not because it's what came to his mind first, but because to him, 'Highwind sequence' and 'scene with the risque dialogue' are synonymous.
That doesn't make it canon.
Yes, I do, but it's a bit of a false analogy.
In your scenario, we're establishing that the automatic association between optional characters and Vincent, that Vincent is THE example of optional characters in the game. That's what stands out to him as a creator.
With the highwind sequence, a fellow creator asked him about the Highwind scene, and he immediately jumped to the version with Risque dialogue. That's THE example of that scene in his head.
I see the analogy as being similar. He's asked about something, he gives an example of an optional
something (Vincent as optional characters, HA as the Highwind scene), but that doesn't change that both versions aren't required for a canon event to happen in the story itself. An interview with him talking about the nature of it doesn't change the story (not trying to sound like a smartass!). If you play FFVII and then watch AC/C, there's no indicating which scene is canon. So... we look to a quote where he only identifies with one version? That doesn't sound right.
Actually, no, I'm curious. I want to see this supported. If you didn't 'just come up with it' it should be supportable.
I
really don't want to get into that haha. I know it will get more backlash here than acceptance or understanding, and I don't expect otherwise anyways. I'll just keep that out of here.
See, this I also find interesting. If it's a legitimate interpretation backed by facts, it wouldn't be bashing, yet you yourself describe it as such.
It would be considered bashing of some sort here, on this thread, where the topic isn't what I think of Tifa. But it's a legitimate interpretation.
I shall, while I wait for your explanation.
Reno has an interesting personality, yes? I think someone with
his kind of attitude would be good for her. That's my only explanation. You agree or you don't.
Sometimes, yes. Children have an amazing ability to cut through nonsense that keeps people from realizing the root of their problems. Cloud and Tifa's problems are not with each other, but problems each- mostly Cloud- face that act as obstacles in their relationship.
I agree with what you said about children. They keep families feeling like families
But what Nojima said wasn't really pro anything. It was neutral. Not a plus to Cloud/Tifa or Cloud/Aerith. Yes, he seems to be referring to Cloud and Tifa in the "couple" sense, and he also refers to Cloud and Aerith in the same sense, but doesn't show that he's betting on either side, so to speak.
I'm aware. And you agree with my point in general. But you refuse to apply it here, which is odd to me.
I meant about the canon thing, which I said something about earlier in the post (not sure if this is what you thought I meant.)
True, but there's a proverb about 'If you are called a donkey by one man, ignore it. If a second man calls you a donkey, take heed. If a third man calls you a donkey, search for a cart.' While argumentum ad populum is a bad method for determining veracity, if enough people are having issue with what you say, make sure your case is strong.
It is.
Jessie could ALSO be the personal memory. It's not bloody likely, though.
Now this I wouldn't mind
Jessie was awesome.
At some point you need to move into the realm of probability. Some things are simply more likely than other things, and someone rather ham-fistedly associated with Cloud's 'sealed up secret wish' and 'tender memories' is much more likely to be a personal memory than someone not referred to as such.
That just isn't what I see. And since it isn't clarified, it could go any way.
Not all interpretations are valid. So, Again, I say "So prove it. No quote mines, no twisting quotes, no wild speculation, simple facts and logical conclusions from those facts." I'll add the logical principle of parsimony into the equation as well.
In most of my posts, I've been proving that there's not enough to validate Cloud and Tifa as canon. This is my only argument.
You said "Because Square Enix doesn't say it's up to the players." If you wish to imply the opposite, your punctuation needs correcting.
You misspoke. I seized upon it for my amusement and a counterpoint.
That was sarcasm.
Nothing to add to my points ABOUT those statements? Because they don't say what you said they said.
I just read your statements.
The first quote is what I meant more or less. But I'm saying that it isn't the only thing to make me think it's up to us. SE has been vague about this thing in a lot. And the "romance" in FFVII is only a subplot, and there's more than just 'getting with Tifa becomes canon in a version of a scene towards the end.' Cloud and Tifa are presented as optional (the date is optional, the scene when "strong feelings" are exchanged is optional), and they aren't presented or identified as a couple in AC/C, only being a part of a family together.
But you were being sarcastic against a version of her points other than what she was actually expressing.
I've talked about what she was expressing before. (Sorry if my sarcasm came off as being rude)
If we know X happened, and X only happens if Y happens, then Y happens. We have sufficient quotes to demonstrate this is the case for the High Highwind scene and for Tina's expression of love for the children, or Shadow's potential death, and multiple other events. We know an outcome. Not how it affects later events, but that an outcome happened.
When it comes to the HW scene, X, what is Y?
Um, She's just been ignored in conversation. That's Aerith being mean if anyone.
"
Tifa? Tifa, you're there too!"
She didn't know she was there. Tifa wasn't ignored by Aerith.
And I wrote below that, they both get jealous at some point. That was when Tifa got jealous.
No. But she's living with a man who she canonically has romantic feelings for. And he would know she had them. He became aware of them a short time ago.
He's unaware of them because the HA version isn't canon... yet. (SE might come out and say it is or, something that comes after FFVII could be changed/added to make it canon. If this happens, so be it.)
Well, partly because that's irrelevant to the scene, and partly because the novella wouldn't be written for another decade. The point, I'm assuming, was the the positive
So if Cloud and Tifa are meant to now be canon while they weren't before, they should have written into the novellas or AC/C to prove this somehow or make it clear. They didn't. It isn't mentioned in those stories and the feelings mentioned in the Ultimanias that night aren't specified.
Which MEANS that IF Tifa never acts on her feelings, she never confesses, thus no feelings are shared, thus that version DID NOT HAPPEN because FEELINGS ARE SHARED THAT NIGHT, PERIOD END OF.
This is like what I said earlier about not seeing the forest for the trees.
Incidentally, Tifa not acting on her feelings is A MATERIALLY different claim than a 'confirmation of mutual romantic disinterest.'
Cloud and Tifa show that they care for each other either way, Low or High Affection. That's feelings being shared. "Romantic" is only made easy to see in one of the versions.
As for a 'confirmation of mutual romantic disinterest', I would say that Anastar means that this applies to how the Low Affection version can be viewed, not that this agreement is ever made.
Bad example. Brother has far more than cousinly feelings for Yuna.
That was me joking about incest.
But the family of friends is a contrast to the current family, the 'real' family.
A family of friends is
still a family. And that's the family that Tifa associates being part of in CoT. She only wonders about how she would become part of a 'real' family, seemingly with one mother (her), father (Cloud), and two kids (Marlene and Denzel.)
Tifa's Feelings are canonically romantic. Hence, mutual confirmation of those feelings includes romance.
Feelings FOR Aerith, meanwhile, have consistently been associated with Cloud's guilt over letting her die. He wants her forgiveness, she's the symbol of his guilt, etc. etc. etc.
Romantic is only one feeling. If she legitimately cares about Cloud, regardless of if she likes him like that or not, that's a feeling.
Your tiddlywinks have been tiddlied.
What a good tiddling it was.
I'm late to the punch on this one but I really, really doubt that everything Cloud did was solely for Tifa/to impress her. FFVII was a lot of things, but it was never a love story. Saying something like that is as silly as saying Aerith went out of her way to do everything as an homage to a dude she only dated for a little while (Zack). It's not just out of character but also conflicts with the way that the story is told and the emphasis put on more significant parts of the plot (ecoterrorism, the power of friendship, the importance of putting loss and grief behind you, etc.)
Final Fantasy VII just isn't a love story, and it's silly to me when people analyze it as though it is one.
I agree!
Jeez, Tifa! 
