The Love Triangle Debate thread of KNEEL BEFORE ZOD OR SUFFER HIS WRATH (ignore the opening posts at your peril) (Round 6)

[ClerithRaven]

Could we please refrain from talking about the DoC game manual? It ranks about shit on the relevance scale.

Isn't it still part of the compilation?

 

[Tina Armstrong]

Is there any information about Tifa in that DoC manual too?

 

[Elisa Maza]

Isn't it still part of the compilation?

It talks about Cloud as an ex-SOLDIER. Just from this you can surely understand that the guidebook for DoC is more of less the same for FFVII: it's as if you get into the OG from the start, no story progression whatsoever. Also, mistakes (Cloud an ex-SOLDIER????? BUAHAHAHAHAHA... no.)

Cloud is the woman's (Aerith's) friend, lover (koibito=sweetheart/boyfriend/beloved).

Ah, the third person limited. The POV that describes everything the person sees and feels, but not what is general truth. The POV CoLW is written in. Fancy to see you here again after all this time. Wassup?

 

[Marle]

Guilt isn't the only thing we can associate Cloud's feelings for Aerith with. That's all I'm saying.

This. Cloud feels guilt, true but he also feels that she is someone both dear to him and irreplaceable.

At the same time, he also doesn't feel like Tifa is nothing. Enough to express this 'mutual rejection' nonsense. Sorry, that really gets under my skin. If we can admit he feels more than guilt for Aerith, then we can admit he feels more for Tifa than 'sisterly affection' or platonic friendship.

 

[Tina Armstrong]

ClerithRaven

"The Place where sorrow never heals
In the capital of the Ancients where covered with grief, fierce flames of war scattered.

I don't think that it's all about the guilt. He does feel sorrow for Aerith's death.

Of course he does! I don't think he's the only one in AVALANCHE though. And sorrow isn't something you automatically relate to romance. Anyway, they seem to be talking about the actual place just.

When talking about the "rare smile" which Aerith brings out in Cloud during the game, the FFVII Ultimania Omega says that "there seems to be something between them".

Chemistry. A new friendship is blooming? Cloud and Aerith's relationship differs from Cloud and Tifa's?

Aerith Gainsborough - A girl with the blood of the Ancients running through her veins, who Cloud would never forget.

Aerith Gainsborough - A girl with the blood of the Ancients flowing through her veins, who is engraved in Cloud's heart for the rest of his life.

Cloud and Aerith had potential in the OG. SE made it look like they were going to become the couple of FFVII, IMO. Like Cait Sith predicting a "great future" for Cloud and Aerith, just an example. I think it was all a part to make Aerith's death more sudden and more tragic.

Cloud and Aerith became friends, and could have been something more. And let's not forget that Cloud could choose not to be romantically interested in her when she was alive.

After all, there are hints in the game. And guess who they points towards? Tifa.
In the end, it was always Tifa the real Cloud had in his heart. It was always Tifa Cloud had in his memories. And it was only Tifa who Cloud shared mutual feelings with. None of these quotes with Aerith above can replace what Cloud and Tifa have. It can't be compared with eachother, since it is obvious who Cloud choosed to be with in the end.

Edit: ^ This is just how I look at it!

 

[Vendel]

Isn't it still part of the compilation?

Why would the DoC game booklet be considered part of the compilation?

Is there any information about Tifa in that DoC manual too?

Well (if my sources are correct) besides the "engraved in Cloud's heart" line the other reason Cleriths love the DoC game booklet is because it says Tifa "keeps in contact" with Cloud and Barret. It also says she opened an orphanage and calls Cloud an Ex-Soldier so ignore that......

But remember Clerith "evidence" isn't exactly held to the same standard as Cloti evidence. As in there is none while Cloti evidence requires a press release.

 

[ClerithRaven]

Is there any information about Tifa in that DoC manual too?

Vendel beat me to it.

It talks about Cloud as an ex-SOLDIER. Just from this you can surely understand that the guidebook for DoC is more of less the same for FFVII: it's as if you get into the OG from the start, no story progression whatsoever. Also, mistakes (Cloud an ex-SOLDIER????? BUAHAHAHAHAHA... no.)

Wow. So, if a part of the compilation contains mistakes... then the whole of it can't be taken into consideration?

Ah, the third person limited. The POV that describes everything the person sees and feels, but not what is general truth. The POV CoLW is written in. Fancy to see you here again after all this time. Wassup?

Still, it says what it says.
I've got time on my hands right now. More so when October 9 comes in. The ceiling is.

This. Cloud feels guilt, true but he also feels that she is someone both dear to him and irreplaceable.

Thanks!

At the same time, he also doesn't feel like Tifa is nothing. Enough to express this 'mutual rejection' nonsense. Sorry, that really gets under my skin. If we can admit he feels more than guilt for Aerith, then we can admit he feels more for Tifa than 'sisterly affection' or platonic friendship.

Tifa is not "nothing" to Cloud, that I agree with. I don't think there is a "mutual rejection". Not all Cleriths have the same opinion on something.

Of course he does! I don't think he's the only one in AVALANCHE though. And sorrow isn't something you automatically relate to romance. Anyway, they seem to be talking about the actual place just.

Like what I've quoted before, Cloud carries his own *undying* feeling for Aerith, which may be different from the rest of her [Aerith's] comrades. This may taken to be referring to his sorrow. Cloud's sorrow is different from the others of Avalanche then, IMO.
The place is related to Aerith, and so is his sorrow. It says that his sorrow will never heal. It talks about how he will always always feel grief over losing Aerith.

Chemistry. A new friendship is blooming? Cloud and Aerith's relationship differs from Cloud and Tifa's?

Well, I connect that with this...

Nevertheless, it is not hard to imagine that she carries complex feelings as a woman toward Aerith, who had built up a *special bond with Cloud* that was *different from Tifa’s*.

What do you think is the bond between Cloud and Aerith? Why is it called special? How is it different from Tifa's? Why would it bring out complex feelings from Tifa?
Just wanted to know your side on it.

Going to add something later here~

Take your time.

Why would the DoC game booklet be considered part of the compilation?

Coz DoC is part of the compilation.

Well (if my sources are correct) besides the "engraved in Cloud's heart" line the other reason Cleriths love the DoC game booklet is because it says Tifa "keeps in contact" with Cloud and Barret. It also says she opened an orphanage and calls Cloud an Ex-Soldier so ignore that......

Riiiiiight. Go on then.

But remember Clerith "evidence" isn't exactly held to the same standard as Cloti evidence. As in there is none while Cloti evidence requires a press release.

Shoot me then.

 

[Tina Armstrong]

What do you think is the bond between Cloud and Aerith? Why is it called special? How is it different from Tifa's? Why would it bring out complex feelings from Tifa?
Just wanted to know your side on it.

Cloud and Aerith were going in the romantic direction(probably because Aerith is really flirty and have the courage, while Tifa doesn't), and Tifa noticed this.
Tifa held feelings for Cloud long before Aerith met him. So this makes her.. jealous.

On another note, in the beginning of the game when you're going to Seventh Heaven for the first time, and stay over there.. The next morning when the team is going on another mission, you can talk to a girl who's outside the bar with other people (like Johnny), then she says something like: "Me and the rest of the villagers watched you from outside the bar last night/yesterday. Childhood friends? That's a good one!" (<--Or something like that)

Hmmm?

 

[Fairheartstrife]

The next morning when the team is going on another mission, you can talk to a girl who's outside the bar with other people (like Johnny), then she says something like: "Me and the rest of the villagers watched you from outside the bar last night/yesterday. Childhood friends? That's a good one!" (<--Or something like that)

Hmmm?

Wait for it.... lol. Every Clerith I've ever known has countered that with: "Maybe they were fighting. Or not being very friendly." Despite the fact that Tifa goes on the very next mission to protect Cloud and on that mission Barret says 'There's not time for that" whenever Tifa and Cloud linger too long together... Time for what, Barret? Also, the whole there's so much to say to each other dialogue before Cloudy tumbles ala Zack into Sector 5...

But whatever. LOL None of the narrative before meeting Materia Jesus Aerith matters...

 

[ClerithRaven]

Cloud and Aerith were going in the romantic direction(probably because Aerith is really flirty and have the courage, while Tifa doesn't), and Tifa noticed this.
Tifa held feelings for Cloud long before Aerith met him. So this makes her.. jealous.

At least someone considers it.
On the Tifa doesn't part... Barret made a comment saying that Tifa changed from being a strong woman to a weak one when she met Cloud again... or so I heard. Why do you think so? What happened to her?

On another note, in the beginning of the game when you're going to Seventh Heaven for the first time, and stay over there.. The next morning when the team is going on another mission, you can talk to a girl who's outside the bar with other people (like Johnny), then she says something like: "Me and the rest of the villagers watched you from outside the bar last night/yesterday. Childhood friends? That's a good one!" (<--Or something like that)

Was there a dialogue before that? I mean, what happened? Just so that I could see the whole context of the scene.
On another note, sometimes, I say "That's a good one!" for mocking something that was claimed... do you believe it is different from what that girl meant with what she said?

Hmmm?

Why?

EDIT:

Wait for it.... lol. Every Clerith I've ever known has countered that with: "Maybe they were fighting. Or not being very friendly." Despite the fact that Tifa goes on the very next mission to protect Cloud and on that mission Barret says 'There's not time for that" whenever Tifa and Cloud linger too long together... Time for what, Barret? Also, the whole there's so much to say to each other dialogue before Cloudy tumbles ala Zack into Sector 5...

Not every Clerith is like that.
Maybe time for lingering too much? They were on a mission. Time is of the essence. Oh well, I wouldn't know. I haven't played the game.

But whatever. LOL None of the narrative before meeting Materia Jesus Aerith matters...

Why is this here?

 

[Zee]

aurgh my eyes can't handle the amount of text in these pages &#3232;_&#3232;

oh my god story of my life

I actually have stuff I want to respond to but it's a bit difficult becuase I'm not even really in the mood to argue how canon Cloti is/isn't but I guess more I just

Don't really agree with the overall view of their relationship and development? I think this is the problem I most run into in Cloti arguments. I don't find any significance in him joining SOLIDER for Tifa because he was a teenage boy with a boner for the most popular girl in town. (also, joining something just to impress someone you like is the worst idea ever cloud didn't you watch felicity)

If anything I find ff7 was a subversion of all of these tropes? Like Cloud and Tifa are legit fucking awful for each other in nearly every way during ff7 -- this is not a story of sweet childhood love that blossomed into a beautiful flower, these are two fucked up people with some severe emotional problems who are constantly twisting their own story.

I guess I don't find anything romantic about Cloud joining SOLDIER for her because it was way more than that and...honestly the way it all turned out makes it more of a horrifying and sad story than a romantic one but then again any story that starts out with "I decided to join the army at 14 cause I thought it would get me laid" is never going to end well.

tl;dr I think their childhood was more plot significant than romance significant

I don't even think their romance really got of the ground til maybe around lifestream/highwind scenes


shrug

opinions

 

[Alessa Gillespie]

At least someone considers it.
On the Tifa doesn't part... Barret made a comment saying that Tifa changed from being a strong woman to a weak one when she met Cloud again... or so I heard. Why do you think so? What happened to her?

You've heard wrong. Barret never says anything of the sort.

 

[Zee]

At least someone considers it.
On the Tifa doesn't part... Barret made a comment saying that Tifa changed from being a strong woman to a weak one when she met Cloud again... or so I heard. Why do you think so? What happened to her?

Someone correct me if I remembered it wrong but wasn't that after Cloud went into a coma? And she falters and then he says that? I think she had a right to be kinda defeated at that point though.

 

[Fairheartstrife]

I totally agree with you, Zee. I think their relationship--especially during OG is unhealthy at best. But I'm not trying to argue it is a sweet love story, I'm arguing that it's canon. Whether or not it's some flowery romance--when it clearly isn't--is irrelevant. They are a couple. Fucked up, messed up, working through it, but a couple.

 

[Alessa Gillespie]

Someone correct me if I remembered it wrong but wasn't that after Cloud went into a coma? And she falters and then he says that? I think she had a right to be kinda defeated at that point though.

I can find nothing but Barret being like 'it's for the best' and 'take care tifa' around the coma time and being nothing but encouraging.

 

[ClerithRaven]

You've heard wrong. Barret never says anything of the sort.

Here's what I've heard.

Barret: "What happened to the Tifa I met before? The passionate, strong girl? Why are you acting like this all over a guy?
Tifa: "I don't know Barret... I've just felt so weak lately.

She says it was something like that.

Someone correct me if I remembered it wrong but wasn't that after Cloud went into a coma? And she falters and then he says that? I think she had a right to be kinda defeated at that point though.

Barret says ever since she met Cloud again. So it wasn't just that time.

 

[Tina Armstrong]

Wait for it.... lol. Every Clerith I've ever known has countered that with: "Maybe they were fighting. Or not being very friendly."

My first guess would be that they did something that involved being more than friends.

Despite the fact that Tifa goes on the very next mission to protect Cloud and on that mission Barret says 'There's not time for that" whenever Tifa and Cloud linger too long together... Time for what, Barret? Also, the whole there's so much to say to each other dialogue before Cloudy tumbles ala Zack into Sector 5...

I thought about bringing this up too. But yeah, I agree with you. Barret knew something was going on between them.

On the Tifa doesn't part... Barret made a comment saying that Tifa changed from being a strong woman to a weak one when she met Cloud again... or so I heard. Why do you think so? What happened to her?

I don't remember that, sorry.
Hmm.. I guess she didn't feel very confident with Cloud and Aerith "doing their thing", you know? I have the get back on that one later, if you or someone else could provide evidence.

Was there a dialogue before that? I mean, what happened? Just so that I could see the whole context of the scene.

No, nothing that had to do with what she said.

On another note, sometimes, I say "That's a good one!" for mocking something that was claimed... do you believe it is different from what that girl meant with what she said?

As I said, my first thought was that they did something that involved "being more than friends." I think they put her comment there so we players could guess that something was going on between Cloud and Tifa.
Edit: But yeah, I think so.

Why?

Why what?

 

[Alessa Gillespie]

She says it was something like that.

I cannot find this in my copy of the game script anywhere.

 

[Fairheartstrife]

Someone correct me if I remembered it wrong but wasn't that after Cloud went into a coma? And she falters and then he says that? I think she had a right to be kinda defeated at that point though.

After Cloud falls into a coma, Tifa says she wants to stay and Barret says it's for the best. For her and Cloud... Unless you're thinking of something else?

 

[Zee]

I can find nothing but Barret being like 'it's for the best' and 'take care tifa' around the coma time and being nothing but encouraging.

I have to search again graaah I remember him going "Tifa! When'd you become so weak?" But I was sure it was when she was debating being the leader not about how she acted towards Cloud.

 

[Alessa Gillespie]

I have to search again graaah I remember him going "Tifa! When'd you become so weak?" But I was sure it was when she was debating being the leader not about how she acted towards Cloud.

I can find a lot of 'i was so weak' by cloud and an instance of reno mentioning it, but i can find nothing with barret saying it

 

[ClerithRaven]

My first guess would be that they did something that involved being more than friends.

This is about the girl saying that they're childhood friends right? Uhm...

I thought about bringing this up too. But yeah, I agree with you. Barret knew something was going on between them.

Or Barret knows Tifa has feelings for Cloud. This was before Cloud regained his memories, right?

I don't remember that, sorry.
Hmm.. I guess she didn't feel very confident with Cloud and Aerith "doing their thing", you know? I have the get back on that one later, if you or someone else could provide evidence.

I've said what my friend said.

No, nothing that had to do with what she said.

Gee, it doesn't make sense now.. Please elaborate?

As I said, my first thought was that they did something that involved "being more than friends." I think they put her comment there so we players could guess that something was going on between Cloud and Tifa.

Above..

Why what?

You said: Hmm?

I cannot find this in my copy of the game script anywhere.

Could you share a link?

 

[Fairheartstrife]

Like any good obsessive fan I have a copy of the game script on my hard drive.

Tifa
"Meteor is coming, and Weapon is on the rampage......"
"At a time like this, I don't know what I'm supposed to do......"

(She shakes her head.)

Tifa
"No idea at all......"

(Cid dashes over to the pilot)

Barret
"Get a hold of yourself Tifa! C'mon, let's think about this!"
"No way we can get offa this train we're on!"

Tifa
"......If only Cloud was here, everything would be fine."
"Cloud would......"
"Stand that cocky little way he did, and tell us what to do."

(She nods)

Tifa
"He'd say, 'Everything's under control, Tifa.'"

(She turns away)

Barret
"Tifa! When'd you become such a wimp!"

Tifa
"I'm sorry Barret."
"I'm kind of shocked myself. I'm so depressed."

(of course Cloud is gone and presumed likely dead at this point...)

A bit later:

Barret
"What? Does Cloud always gotta be around?......"
"We did fine without him in the beginning......"
"Right? An' what happened to tough girl I used to know? Where'd
she go to?"


However, reviewing this, there's a lot of stuff supporting that Cloud was seriously fucked up and clearly--to everyone, not just Tifa and Cetra Aerith.


Cid
"I want you to know that I didn't dislike him."
"Gotta admit he was a strange dude."
"Just when you thought he was cool, he'd go and do some damn
fool thing."
"And when you thought he was smart, he'd show how stupid he was."

(He rubs his head)

Cid
"Everything about him from his movements to his speech were
kinda odd."
"Knowin' what I do now, I can see why he was that way."
"Well, as long as you stay alive, you just might see him again
someday, so cheer up, sis."

(He laughs. Tifa nods)

 

[Zee]

EDIT THANKS TO NINJA FHS

Barret
"Tifa! When'd you become such a wimp!"

Tifa
"I'm sorry Barret."
"I'm kind of shocked myself. I'm so depressed."

That was it! I couldn't remember if it was weak or wimp aaa ty ty

Cid
"Everything about him from his movements to his speech were
kinda odd."
"Knowin' what I do now, I can see why he was that way."
"Well, as long as you stay alive, you just might see him again
someday, so cheer up, sis."

asfjasflka;lsf

cid calling tifa sis

WHY WAS THERE NOT MORE AWESOME PARTY INTERACTION IN THE COMPILATION

 

[ClerithRaven]

I just said that part because Eileen said that Aerith had the courage to pursue Cloud. Though, I wouldn't call it pursuing really... From the limited knowledge I have, she was just acting like herself...
Maybe Tifa was jealous because Aerith was able to grow closer to Cloud and she wasn't...

Just saying.
I have to go now. Tomorrow again!


It's been fun.