Ariadne Sorry, Tres, but that's not what I said. I said it could be met by SE saying which version is canon. I didn't say "which version happened".
Saying that a scene is canon is different than saying it happened.
Err, no. It's not. If a thing happens in a story, that thing is the canon version. If it is not part of canon, it did not happen. I mean, let's use the example
I would bet you're saying, "What the hell is the difference?" The difference is that BOTH the LA version and HA version happen.
Without quantum superpositioning, no. The two versions cannot both happen in the narrative. One happens, the other does not. Thus, stating one happens means the other does not.
SE may use only one version in the story summary, but does that mean it's canon? Not to me.
Um, the story summary IS saying what happened in the actual story, the actual narrative. So... you're saying 'Okay, here's the story, this is part of the story' is not sufficient for you. I knew this already, I am glad you admit it.
I need a comment by SE that says something like, "Even though two versions exist for the HW scene, the version where Cloud and Tifa share their love for one another is considered the actual outcome that takes place before AC/ACC." That doesn't just say it happened - it says that one version is actually canon.
That's what I'm talking about.
So, you want Square Enix to officially declare in exact words that one version scene didn't just happen, it's canon, meaning it's the version that happened.
Not only is this the 'press release mentality' I sometimes mock in a nutshell, but it's very silly besides and though I'm sure you'll take umbrage with this, it's a double standard.
Furthermore, I'm saying that your story summary is actually contradicted by the quotes in both the U20 on page 232 and on page 198 in the FFVII UO where it says that the scene divergences into two conditions according to Tifa's affection rating with Cloud. By saying that the scene diverges into two conditions according to Tifa'a affection rating with Cloud, that says to me that there is no canon version.
You keep repeating that this divergance being noted means there's no canon version, but have absolutely no problem accepting that other scenes with divergances have canon outcomes.
On top of that, there is evidence in the Compilation after the HW scene that contradicts the HA version. (I mention some examples below.)
I also asked both Discord and OWD the same thing - but are you saying that your quote is more valid than mine? My evidence comes from the U20 and the FFVII UO. If you ask me, that evidence is just as legitimate as your evidence from the U!0.
As mentioned, they are not your quotes or our quotes. However, the quotes we are using come from the UO, the U10, the U20, the CCU, and many other places. Our conclusions are based on a full synthesis of the evidence read for comprehension. You are using two quotes read, it seems, for obfuscation, as you rather consistently misquote at least the UO one.
A story summary with a picture is not a statement saying that a scene is canon, especially when official SE sources also say that the scene has two optional outcomes, and there's evidence in the games/movies/novella's that contradicts what you claim is the "canon" outcome.
Then we cannot say Shadow lived, since a story summary with a picture is where we see him after his potential demise.
But the HW scene wasn't selected as an important highlight of the story in Reminiscence. The HW scene wasn't mentioned anywhere in AC/ACC, the novella's, or DoC.
But it WAS selected as an important highlight of the story in Memorial Album. It was listed as one of the four most important scenes of the game in the book about the first ten games.
Instead, there's evidence in those parts of the Compilation that the LA version happened instead of the HA version, such as Cloud and Tifa having separate rooms in CoT,
This is not the case, as Tres has gone over already. But I wish to stress it again- Cloud's office is only ever refered to as his office.
Marlene sleeping with Tifa in CoT,
Which prevents Cloud from sleeping with Tifa how, exactly? My little brother having bad dreams and sleeping with my parents didn't make my Dad suddenly vanish from the bed.
Tifa saying that the family is made up of friends in CoT,
Who have the same sins and burdens. Tifa wasn't saying the family IS made of friends. She said she had gotten along with friends who were like family because of their shared burden. This is in contrast to the idyllic real family that she was forming now.
and Cloud thinking of Aerith first when Sephiroth asks who Cloud cherishes most.
What, as has been pointed out many a time. And the thoughts there always crescendo on thoughts of his family. You build towards the climax.
Even if all of those were true, BTW, none of them actually show that the low affection version happened instead.
If SE wanted to canonize a love relationship between Cloud and Tifa, they wouldn't be including things like that in the story line. Nothing has been confirmed, either in the Ultimania's or in the Compilation.
You seem to be seeing things entirely backwards. Because in a previous post, you provided the quote saying the Low version's conversation was apathetic and short, which is not compatible with sharing or confirming feelings.
You're also ignoring the whole 'Y or Z can happen, if X happens, Y happens. Y happens, therefor X happened'
Did you see the quote that Sesc provided earlier a few posts back?
中川：ところで、セフィロスは今まで何人の女の子と付き合ったことがあるんですか？
野村：スゴイ質問だなぁ。考えたこともないですね。正直、僕は誰と誰が付き合っているとかっていうのは、どうでもいいんですよね。ゲームや映像で描 かれていないところは、好きに想像して楽しんでもらったほうがいいと思ってます。想像の余地があるもののほうが終わったあとに友達と話していて楽しいです し。たとえばクラウドとティファが「AC」までの２年間に恋愛関係にあったのか？とかよく聞かれたりもしますが、僕は知らないです。
「ゲームや映像で描 かれていないところ、好きに想像して楽しんでもらったほうがいいと思ってます」
"From what’s not already depicted in the games and film, interpret/imagine it as you like..."
「たとえばクラウドとティファが「AC」までの２年間に恋愛関係にあったのか？とかよく聞かれたりもしますが、僕は知らないです。
Then Nomura further says he doesn’t know if Cloud and Tifa were in a romantic relationship in the two years prior to AC.
Nomura says right there that he's not sure there was a romantic relationship between Cloud and Tifa in the years prior to AC. Why doesn't he know if the HA version is canon?
Another contradiction.
As mentioned, Nomura has openly lied about upcoming releases on other occasions. He also decided as of the movie coming out that Tifa was someone's beloved or lover. He also says- IIRC- that he doesn't know ABOUT. Not that he doesn't know IF.
Nojima had decided at this time that Cloud and Tifa belonged together. It had been decided that Cloud and Tifa had a future together. And those are merely quotes from the RF.
Of course they can even if they talk about the existence of both scenes. However, they need to specify that one is canon, state that one is canon, and discuss the fact that it's canon - not just use one version in a story summary with a picture. That's not nearly enough, IMO.
Like, oh, talking about the one they find more important, including it in their story summary, in the official game script, using it as one of the four most important scenes in the game, having it be an example of romantic confessions alongside other games and basically just hammering it into our head that mutual feelings two people had for each other were shared that evening?
IMO, there are multiple passages that contradict one another.
Opinions are like assholes. Provide facts.
I didn't say it was irrelevant. I said it doesn't prove anything, especially when there's other sources contradicting the idea that the HA version is canon.
None of those 'sources' contradict the idea that the High version happened. You are trying to read into them meaning that allows you to see a contradiction.
SE took out one image of Aerith and replaced it with several images, along with other characters in the film like Tifa. However, SE still left Cloud in Safe and Sound on Fenrir riding around flowers that represent Aerith instead of having him ride back to the Seventh Heaven. If SE wanted to show Cloud moving on with Tifa, then why didn't they show him going back there?
Because they thought the viewers were not complete morons and could gather from the context, such as the phone calls in reminiscence, the addition of a new photo to his desk and taking Denzel to visit Zack's grave that Cloud had returned home to live with the Tifa and the kids. Like we have been officially told he did. Where we've been told he belongs.
SE also still showed a flower on Cloud's desk before going to Safe and Sound, so we know he stopped in the flower fields representing Aerith.
So the emphasis is still on Aerith in the ending instead of Tifa.
What we know is that Cloud stopped to make a phone call to Tifa on his way home from deliveries. At some point, he might have grabbed a flower, or he might have taken one from the few he planted at Zack's grave while he moved Zack's sword to Aerith's church.
If the ending focuses on anything other than Cloud's moving forward, it's focusing on Zerith.
Why does it seem like what you said implies that we're not using facts for our arguments of C/A being romantic?
Oftentimes, because it seems you aren't. I keep asking for first principles, and rarely are these provided. The closest we've gotten recently has been the admission of thinking that his words at Aerith's death would be romantic if anyone else was there.
Nomura wrote:
As for Cloud... he sees Aerith several times throughout
the film. It's not that he sees her because he feels her presence. He sees her because her consciousness lives on inside him.
As does Zack's, as does hers within all her friends, as do all the dead remembered by the living. Aerith does not literally live on inside him. COLW has her in the big lifestream and the U10 story section declare she heads back to the lifestream around the planet where she belongs.
FFVII 10th Anniversary Ultimania, AC Story Playback, p. 122-131 wrote:
The Place where sorrow never heals
In the capital of the Ancients where covered with grief, fierce flames of war scattered.
I don't think that it's all about the guilt. He does feel sorrow for Aerith's death. Why we take it as romantic?
Sorrow can be about regret.
Aerith's info page, FFVII Ultimania Omega wrote:
When talking about the "rare smile" which Aerith brings out in Cloud during the game, the FFVII Ultimania Omega says that "there seems to be something between them".
The U10 also wants to make note that Cloud's not in his right mind here.
DoC game manual, English version wrote:
Aerith Gainsborough - A girl with the blood of the Ancients running through her veins, who Cloud would never forget.
DoC game manual, direct translation from Japanese version wrote:
Aerith Gainsborough - A girl with the blood of the Ancients flowing through her veins, who is engraved in Cloud's heart for the rest of his life.
Yeah. Tifa doesn't run an orphanage. Cloud's not an Ex-SOLDIER. NEXT.
Case of Lifestream: White wrote:
Cloud is the woman's (Aerith's) friend, lover (koibito=sweetheart/boyfriend/beloved).
That's Aerith's viewpoint.
And if we can determine that Woman is Aerith, I think we can determine who Tifa is the beloved of with a little deduction.
I love quote mining. LOL! Anyways...
Quote mining is not something to joke about. It's a very sleazy practice.
Guilt isn't the only thing we can associate Cloud's feelings for Aerith with. That's all I'm saying.
No. But that is what is primarily associated with her as coming from him and never romance. And your other two quotes are grief and sorrow, which include grief or regret.
And not a whit of that indicates romance on its own. There's plenty of greif in losing a friend. Plenty of sorrow and regret in failing to save someone you nearly killed yourself.
No one says Cloud hated or disliked Aerith. We're asking for a strong case for Romance to be made.
When I elaborated on it, I mentioned the "feeling" thing.
"Cloud and Tifa confirm their feelings to match." OH MY GOD KIDS, IT'S LOVE. IT'S LOVE!
"Cloud carries his undying feeling for Aerith even to this very day." IT'S OKAY GUYS, IT'S A GUILT TRIP.
Look at the greater context. We have further information on the feelings in both cases. We know Tifa is romantically interested in Cloud. We also know from AC/C, the U10, Prologue, RF, etc that Cloud feels massive guilt and wants forgiveness. Context provides, well, context.
When I brought up a brother, I said for example. Was there a simile or metaphor comparing that with their relationship?
Yuna and Brother don't live together and raise kids together and she's not aware of his feelings for the most part.
"Both Aerith, who is forthright, and Tifa, who is demure, have feelings for Cloud but he is none the wiser to them.
And later, Cloud becomes aware of Tifa's feelings as she becomes aware of his. Different states in time.
I didn't mean to insult Ryu, and if Ryu took any direct offense to that, I hope he/she will tell me.
-Looks at his use information to the left of each post. Notes his real name and gender are listed. Recalls that his most common SN is shared by male characters pretty much exclusively. Wonders how you missed this information.-
Thundercunt - The pinnacle of all English swearwords, thundercunt is phoenetically, spiritually, grammatically, and socially the worst thing you can ever say. Much like a Holy Hand Grenade or the most powerful zord from Power Rangers, it should only be used in times of extreme need.
If it isn't known, "thundercunt" isn't supposed to be serious here, and I wasn't directing it towards any one person. I was saying, if we can't make jokes we should be cynical thundercunts.
(I don't like 'cunt' either, but thundercunt? Unforgettable
)
Making jokes INSTEAD of making points is a big no no. Making points and cracking jokes is fine. In a debate, your first priority is to honestly respond to the points presented.
That would turn into bashing and I don't want to do that here.
But if it's part of her character, why is it bashing? I can factually state that, Rufus, for example is a narcissistic opportunistic asshole, and provide evidence for this without it devolving into bashing. I can point out that Barret is kind of a drama llama at times, the Shinra stair climb being a prime example.
And this is what the scene is known for.
My point is, the scene cannot be 'nothing' because the scene, regardless of whether you think it actually happened or not, the scene contains dialogue which is 'risque,' but which can only be risque if it implies other actions. It must insinuate these other actions.
"Wanna go back to my place and watch I love Lucy" is an innocent line. When told this line is dirty, this line must insinutate other things.
Well I don't want to have that kind of conversation with you. We haven't said terrible things to each other, have we?
Well, you did call me a thundercunt.
I didn't see those responses until I had already responded to something else.
Fair enough.
I do see where you're coming from, very much so, but quote mining may be her way of getting her own interpretation of the actual quote. It wouldn't be the first time its been done and so long as we know the actual quotes, it's okay for her arguments sake.
She's omitting significant portions of paragraphs and in one very special instance, ignoring a vital clause of a sentence to draw a conclusion entirely other than a full reading of the sentence implies. This is not something that can be done innocently. Take the sentence 'Everyone is dead... we must live on'
Taking only the first clause of that 'everyone is dead...' on gives a materially different meaning to the sentence, same as trying to ignore the 'they return to the flow of life around the planet' tries to materially change the meaning of the sentence it is omitted from.
I still don't think she means to be contradicting of herself, just trying to get things across, but it's hard to do that. Debating is really hard, to be honest.
She's actively disavowing her own statements. And debating can be hard. But being consistent should not be.
Okey dokey.
That doesn't make it canon.
We're not using that alone to come to the conclusion that it is canon. The synthesis of evidence in greater context. Learn it, love it, use it.
I see the analogy as being similar. He's asked about something, he gives an example of an optional something (Vincent as optional characters, HA as the Highwind scene), but that doesn't change that both versions aren't required for a canon event to happen in the story itself. An interview with him talking about the nature of it doesn't change the story (not trying to sound like a smartass!). If you play FFVII and then watch AC/C, there's no indicating which scene is canon. So... we look to a quote where he only identifies with one version? That doesn't sound right.
Okay, let's go to the old standby. FFVI.
Let's say the question is 'Remember the bit on the forgotten continent?' and the response is 'You mean waiting for Shadow so he lives?', that's still indicating that that version of the scene has become synonymous with the creator as the definitive version of that in his mind. That says that version of the scene is important to him, the creator. It's part of establishing the synthesized case.
I
really don't want to get into that haha. I know it will get more backlash here than acceptance or understanding, and I don't expect otherwise anyways. I'll just keep that out of here.
It would be considered bashing of some sort here, on this thread, where the topic isn't what I think of Tifa. But it's a legitimate interpretation.
I am still curious what instances made you think of her as whiny, etc.
Reno has an interesting personality, yes? I think someone with his kind of attitude would be good for her. That's my only explanation. You agree or you don't.
I would ask you to underline more clearly what 'his kind' of attitude is and how it would be good for her.
I agree with what you said about children. They keep families feeling like families
But what Nojima said wasn't really pro anything. It was neutral. Not a plus to Cloud/Tifa or Cloud/Aerith. Yes, he seems to be referring to Cloud and Tifa in the "couple" sense, and he also refers to Cloud and Aerith in the same sense, but doesn't show that he's betting on either side, so to speak.
He doesn't have to, really. Simply referring to Cloud in Tifa in the couple sense is enough. It means they are a couple. QED. LTD done.
I meant about the canon thing, which I said something about earlier in the post (not sure if this is what you thought I meant.)
I do mean about the canonicity of variable sequences, which is odd.
Okay, back to FFVI. Different example. In the end of the game, you can take as many as all or as few as one of your party members to fight Kefka. Which party arrangement is canon? Nothing AFTER this point in the story is affected by this decision. By your specific logic used for the HA scene- we must see explicitly how a scene affects future outcomes to determine which is canon- we cannot say which is. I argue that we can, because we are in fact told and shown which happened. We are told the specific outcome of this scene. Same as we are told the specific outcome of the Highwind scene. In fact, we have more evidence to say which version of the highwind scene happened in the narrative than we do who was part of the party assaulting Kefka.
Don't just say it is. Make it so (number one). Lay out the concrete case. People are calling you donkey, proverbially. Instead of just saying you aren't, show you aren't. Lay out the case.
Now this I wouldn't mind
Jessie was awesome.
But she's not all that likely, it my point. We must always apply parsimony, not preference.
Also, we don't really know enough of Jessie to say she's awesome. Likewise Biggs and Wedge.
That just isn't what I see. And since it isn't clarified, it could go any way.
Could go 'either' way, you mean, unless his sealed up secret wish is a Vorlon. But again, this is my point. Could and likely are not the same. The probable is more likely than the simply possible. It is more parsimonious, requiring fewer assumptions.Narratively, 'Tifa and Cloud's personal memories' are already established as linked at this point. The idea's already been embedded. Aerith as related to them, not so.
I mean, if we want to argue merely could, he COULD be refering to his mom. Or Zack. Isn't likely.
In most of my posts, I've been proving that there's not enough to validate Cloud and Tifa as canon. This is my only argument.
And even if you were doing this, it still would not lead to 'either can be so' because the case for C/T would still be stronger. And even your argument against the canonicity of C/T should STILL be done without quotemines, twisted quotes, or wild speculation. It should be done with simple facts and logical conclusions, pared against the logical principle of parsimony. Are these things logical? Are they narratively supported? Am I assuming extra things? Is the story more unified with a different hypothesis, etc. etc. etc.
I know. You made a punctuation error and wrote something other than your intention. You need the stop indicated by the comma.
I just read your statements.
The first quote is what I meant more or less. But I'm saying that it isn't the only thing to make me think it's up to us. SE has been vague about this thing in a lot. And the "romance" in FFVII is only a subplot, and there's more than just 'getting with Tifa becomes canon in a version of a scene towards the end.' Cloud and Tifa are presented as optional (the date is optional, the scene when "strong feelings" are exchanged is optional), and they aren't presented or identified as a couple in AC/C, only being a part of a family together.
And that family is that which makes Cloud happy. Tifa is an important woman to him and the mother of that family they formed. She sees him as the father of it. One of the children sees them as his new parents, they have a future together, etc. etc. etc. Which version of the scene does all of that more logically flow from? The scene in which nothing happens, or the scene in which feelings are shared?. And the scene where strong feelings are exchanged HAS TO HAPPEN. Let me stress this again- we are told, straight up, on numerous occasions, that those feelings for each other being shared is what happens in the narrative.
I've talked about what she was expressing before. (Sorry if my sarcasm came off as being rude)
It wasn't the sarcasm. It was the 'other than her points.'
When it comes to the HW scene, X, what is Y?
"If AV is high, feelings are shared" is our if X then Y.
We know from several places that Cloud and Tifa realize AND share feelings for each other at the end of the story.
Tifa's CCU- She and Cloud came to realize their feelings for each other in the end of the story, and live together in AC and DC.
The FTOIL page says they confirm these feelings. P232 also says they confirm these feelings. The U10 story playback says they confirm these feelings. P232 says 'If AV is high, these feelings are confirmed. UO 198 says 'If AV is low, the conversation is apathetic and short'
We have a binary state. Either feelings are confirmed, or we have a short, apathetic conversation. We're told feelings are confirmed. Thus, the version in which feelings are confirmed happened.
Technically, this is all irrelevant, since we're actually told, straight up, toot sweet, that Romantic feelings are confirmed without words that evening.
"Tifa? Tifa, you're there too!"
She didn't know she was there. Tifa wasn't ignored by Aerith.
And saying 'Excuse me' in reaction to Aerith isn't mean, even in the caps. Still not sure why it got capitalized like that though. It's actually really polite Japanese IIRC.
And I wrote below that, they both get jealous at some point. That was when Tifa got jealous.
But that doesn't make it mean.
He's unaware of them because the HA version isn't canon... yet. (SE might come out and say it is or, something that comes after FFVII could be changed/added to make it canon. If this happens, so be it.)
He IS aware of them because he becomes aware of them in the lifestream.
Tifa's U10 profile- She ventured into Lifestream together with Cloud. Amidst the course of him trying to ascertain his memories,
they became aware of the thoughts/feelings which each other was holding.
Cloud is AWARE of these feelings BEFORE the HA scene.
So if Cloud and Tifa are meant to now be canon while they weren't before, they should have written into the novellas or AC/C to prove this somehow or make it clear. They didn't. It isn't mentioned in those stories and the feelings mentioned in the Ultimanias that night aren't specified.
Because the answers are there, but the creators don't think they need to be handed to you. Because they thought it would be obvious.
Cloud and Tifa show that they care for each other either way, Low or High Affection. That's feelings being shared. "Romantic" is only made easy to see in one of the versions.
Actually, 'romantic' is never specifically associated with a version. It's stated to happen regardless. If we're being pedantic. And I excel as pedantic.
And 'feelings being shared' means that feelings are actively shared, confirmed, matched, etc. It is refering to the act of sharing the feelings, not merely two people holding the same feelings. This does not happen in the low version.
As for a 'confirmation of mutual romantic disinterest', I would say that Anastar means that this applies to how the Low Affection version can be viewed, not that this agreement is ever made.
That is not how she applied it, and that is not how the Low Affection version is described at all. The low affection version is described as apathetic, and short. Nothing is shared.
That was me joking about incest.
It's still a bad example to use. Because even as a joke it cuts agin' ya.
A family of friends is still a family. And that's the family that Tifa associates being part of in CoT. She only wonders about how she would become part of a 'real' family, seemingly with one mother (her), father (Cloud), and two kids (Marlene and Denzel.)
No, that's the family associates as having HAD BEEN a part of with people who shared her same sins and burdens. That doesn't apply with a four-six and six-eight year old.
Romantic is only one feeling. If she legitimately cares about Cloud, regardless of if she likes him like that or not, that's a feeling.
But we're told that the feelings are romantic. This is my point. We know, rather explicitly, that the feelings are shared. We know they're mutual and 'for each other' We know, from their inclusion on the relevant page, that they're romantic.
You're correct, Tifa's feelings include more than Romance. This is entirely irrelevant to the discussion of feelings under the highwind now. Those ARE romantic, and they ARE mutual. Your only recourse has been to declare them optional, and even that doesn't hold water.
Contrarywise, Cloud's feelings for Aerith have NEVER included romance. EVER. You can read romance into them with effort, but what we've explicitly been told he has is guilt. Regret. Grief. Not romance. Even if you can choose Aerith's date, Cloud is still oblivious to Aerith. He's got no clue she's interested.
Cloud MUST become aware of Tifa's interest in him. He never officially becomes aware of Aerith's. Even granting arguendo that the confirmation of mutual romantic feelings is optional, you can still have Cloud choose to have and confirm mutual romantic feelings for Tifa. Not so for Aerith. You cannot choose Cloud to return her affections. He canonically remains oblivious.
Even purely 'optionally' the case for Clerith is not as concrete as C/T.
