The Love Triangle Debate thread of KNEEL BEFORE ZOD OR SUFFER HIS WRATH (ignore the opening posts at your peril) (Round 6)

[Master Bates]

Ignoring recent shitstorm.

Why does it seem like what you said implies that we're not using facts for our arguments of C/A being romantic?

No, that is not what I mean. I am merely saying people here are not assuming --- as what the original poster claimed --- that said quote is romantic because actual facts outright say it IS as opposed to the C/A one. Period. End of.


Now as for the quotes you provided:

Nomura wrote:
As for Cloud... he sees Aerith several times throughout
the film. It's not that he sees her because he feels her presence. He sees her because her consciousness lives on inside him.

So it's Simba/Mufasa now?

This quote is about how dead people still lives on in the memories of the living. Reminds me of Dr. Hiluluk's "when do you think people die?" speech in One Piece.

The Place where sorrow never heals

In the capital of the Ancients where covered with grief, fierce flames of war scattered.

I don't think that it's all about the guilt. He does feel sorrow for Aerith's death. Why we take it as romantic?

How do sorrow and grief automatically mean romance?

Aerith's info page, FFVII Ultimania Omega wrote:
When talking about the "rare smile" which Aerith brings out in Cloud during the game, the FFVII Ultimania Omega says that "there seems to be something between them".

And it outright says they're in love now? How?

DoC game manual, English version wrote:
Aerith Gainsborough - A girl with the blood of the Ancients running through her veins, who Cloud would never forget.

DoC game manual, direct translation from Japanese version wrote:
Aerith Gainsborough - A girl with the blood of the Ancients flowing through her veins, who is engraved in Cloud's heart for the rest of his life.

Disregarding the errors in the DoC game manual for the sake of argument, why would Cloud forget someone who impacted his life greatly anyway? Is this necessarily inherently romantic?

Do these quotes outright say romantic compared to the C/T one? No, they don't but one can assume with effort which is unlike the very direct C/T quote. See what I mean here?

Case of Lifestream: White wrote:
Cloud is the woman's (Aerith's) friend, lover (koibito=sweetheart/boyfriend/beloved).

Assuming the woman is Aerith (to which she is if we apply context), what does this say about Cloud's feelings? This is only limited to the woman's PoV. Besides, Tifa is also referred to as someone's koibito by an out-of-universe source, omniscient PoV. Also note that she is the one at the receiving end of the word. The object of one's affection.

Guilt isn't the only thing we can associate Cloud's feelings for Aerith with. That's all I'm saying.

Yes. There are also grief, sorrow, fondness.

Zee wrote:

actually have stuff I want to respond to but it's a bit difficult becuase I'm not even really in the mood to argue how canon Cloti is/isn't but I guess more I just

Don't really agree with the overall view of their relationship and development? I think this is the problem I most run into in Cloti arguments. I don't find any significance in him joining SOLIDER for Tifa because he was a teenage boy with a boner for the most popular girl in town. (also, joining something just to impress someone you like is the worst idea ever cloud didn't you watch felicity)

If anything I find ff7 was a subversion of all of these tropes? Like Cloud and Tifa are legit fucking awful for each other in nearly every way during ff7 -- this is not a story of sweet childhood love that blossomed into a beautiful flower, these are two fucked up people with some severe emotional problems who are constantly twisting their own story.

I guess I don't find anything romantic about Cloud joining SOLDIER for her because it was way more than that and...honestly the way it all turned out makes it more of a horrifying and sad story than a romantic one but then again any story that starts out with "I decided to join the army at 14 cause I thought it would get me laid" is never going to end well.

tl;dr I think their childhood was more plot significant than romance significant

I don't even think their romance really got of the ground til maybe around lifestream/highwind scenes

I don't disagree with this post because I don't think FFVII is a sweet love story anyway. If anything, what made me love FFVII was its dark atmosphere and the finding your own self theme. But here's what I like about the Cloud and Tifa dynamic: the two of them are very broken people who have nothing left for them but each other and together, picked up their broken pieces and pieced them back whole. Still broken, yet whole.

And like FHS said, what the people are arguing here isn't about how sweet the romance is but it's about what is canon.

BESIDES ZEE, DIDN'T YOU SAY THEY HAVE A BEAUTIFUL MOIRALLEGIANCE RELATIONSHIP?! I THINK THAT'S A BEAUTIFUL WORD TO DESCRIBE THEM, REALLY!

EDIT:

Splintered wrote:

And lets face it, the majority of us aren't reading all that wall of text.

I actually read all of EVERYONE'S post, including Ryu's and EbG's despite how the latter's text hurts my eyes. I'm in the minority then.

 

[ClerithRaven]

Oh, didn't see this one before.
Could you show me quotes etc. to explain how it all comes together? It seems a little far fetched right now.

I just connected the two quotes I've posted before.

..Yes? I took it as she meant "Just childhood friends? Good one! (You're obviously something more..)"

From what interaction Tifa and Cloud had? What did happen before that? Sorry.

That could be it. Yes, it was.

So that line of Barret's can mean two things... Oh, ok.

I'm sorry, haha. I meant that the comment she made didn't have anything related to what happened earlier. She just said so, out of nowhere. Or am I getting you wrong again?

Yep, that's what I was asking. So what do you think made the girl say that?

I didn't mean anyting special. And it wasn't directed at you.

Oh! Sorry...


[Qupte]Yes, Aerith acted like herself. But at points she did flirt alot with Cloud.[/Quote]

Yep, I saw FHS's post.

Yes, thank you. This is what I meant.

Glad to see we're eye-to-eye.

Bye! I'll miss you.

I'm baaaack!

-Know a guy 15 seconds, offer to pay for his services with a date.
-Follow him and cut him off when he tries to ditch you.
-Chase after his 'girlfriend' and get involved in everything he's doing despite repeated attempts to thwart you and get you un-involved.
-Picking the sluttiest dress in the dress shop and asking for opinion from said guy, and when he offers none, pouting and calling him no fun.
-Make reference to 'date' despite that date never actually being agreed to.
-Asking what SKIN TONE he prefers while the world is falling to shit.

She pursued him. The reasons and motives behind it are up for debate, but not whether or not she did. She did.

I see that.

CC doesn't support that overly aggressive behavior as just 'being Aerith'... and I know that's why a lot of Aerith fans dislike CC because it made her OG characteristics a direct contribution of Zack.

I like CC.

And before anyone gets panties in a bunch, I actually LIKE bitch Aerith. I can't stand pseudo Jesus Aerith who was pure and perfect. So, the fact that she did those things is actually character enhancing, imo.

Why do you say Pseudo-Jesus Aerith? How did she act that way?

And, we should give credit to SE then. They enhanced Aerith's character.

No, that is not what I mean. I am merely saying people here are not assuming --- as what the original poster claimed --- that said quote is romantic because actual facts outright say it IS as opposed to the C/A one. Period. End of.

So if it is said outright, that's the only one you'll believe?

So it's Simba/Mufasa now?

Simba loved his Father (Mufasa) dearly.

This quote is about how dead people still lives on in the memories of the living. Reminds me of Dr. Hiluluk's "when do you think people die?" speech in One Piece.

Fact is, Aerith only lives on in one person's consciousness. That person must value Aerith so much that he's the only one with that kind of connection with Aerith.

How do sorrow and grief automatically mean romance?

That quote was meant to be taken into context with the rest of the quotes I provided. Thank you very much.

And it outright says they're in love now? How?

You need a press release too?

Disregarding the errors in the DoC game manual for the sake of argument, why would Cloud forget someone who impacted his life greatly anyway? Is this necessarily inherently romantic?

Do these quotes outright say romantic compared to the C/T one? No, they don't but one can assume with effort which is unlike the very direct C/T quote. See what I mean here?

So... Being engraved in another person's heart is not something to be taken romantically. Ok then.

Assuming the woman is Aerith (to which she is if we apply context), what does this say about Cloud's feelings? This is only limited to the woman's PoV. Besides, Tifa is also referred to as someone's koibito by an out-of-universe source, omniscient PoV. Also note that she is the one at the receiving end of the word. The object of one's affection.

Who that "one" is, is assumed to be Cloud because of the HW scene, am I right?

Yes. There are also grief, sorrow, fondness.

 

[Dashell]

So... I have a question

We have quotes that say Cloud had romantic feelings for Tifa (optional or not) and I think that's quite significant. Are there ANY quotes that say Cloud had romantic feelings for Aerith?... and I mean feelings that they'd TOLD us are romantic (Since we need Square to tell us these things)... because as far as I know there aren't any. If they really want to go either way on this love triangle, there should be an equal number of quotes that say Cloud loves Aerith and Tifa... but ... are there any that says he romantically loves Aerith?


And I'm NOT talking about attraction, or things you think MIGHT be romantic, I mean straight up, "he has romantic feelings for her."


EDIT
Finally found this. Anastar you once said this to me:

No, the Low Affection version was described as "apathetic" in the FFVII UO, and apathetic means that something shows little or no emotion. It's also said that the High Affection version is the only version that's "meaningful". If they shared feelings in the Low Affection version, even if they exchanged feelings of friendship or even hatred, then the scene would have meaning.

So by your own words (and this was maybe slightly more than a year ago) they could not have shared feelings of friendship or even support or anything meaningful in the LA version. So please tell me exactly WHAT feelings they shared in the LA version that are not meaningful that Square is talking about in those quotes since it can't be friendship or support or w/e.


EDIT II
Okay found the quote too

好感度が高い場合、 ふたりで過ごす夜が意味深なものに

When the affection is high, the two spend the night with profound meaning.

 

[Master Bates]

CR, I like you but I'm gonna have to be blunt with you a little.

Why do you say Pseudo-Jesus Aerith? How did she act that way?

And, we should give credit to SE then. They enhanced Aerith's character.

@BOLD WORDS: FFS!!! PLEASE TELL ME YOU'RE NOT SERIOUS!

So if it is said outright, that's the only one you'll believe?

Girl, no one is talking about plain belief here. The poster of said post posited that we are assuming that "feelings" are romantic when it only comes from C/T and by providing those 2 quotes to support her claim. What I did was to demonstrate how we are not assuming that the said C/T quote is romantic simply for the sake of assuming, unlike the C/A one. Don't steer us away from the point please.

Simba loved his Father (Mufasa) dearly.

But of course. No one here said they did not. But here's the point: with the Simba/Mufasa example, we are then to realize that said quote isn't inherently romantic and is not necessarily taken as such.

Fact is, Aerith only lives on in one person's consciousness. That person must value Aerith so much that he's the only one with that kind of connection with Aerith.

No. She also lives in the heart of her friends.

That quote was meant to be taken into context with the rest of the quotes I provided. Thank you very much.

And said context say otherwise. You're welcome.

You need a press release too?

No, I don't. What I want you to do, however, is to explain to me how that quote outright says it is of romance that is of equal weight of the very direct quotes C/T has. And I would appreciate it more if you don't lump me with those people with the press release mentality because I am very much capable of feeding myself, with or without spoon.

So... Being engraved in another person's heart is not something to be taken romantically. Ok then.

Unnecessarily. Not inherently.

Who that "one" is, is assumed to be Cloud because of the HW scene, am I right?

And for this, I'm going to quote Splintered:

That's because they already automatically assume the audience of over a decade doesn't need to be told the obvious. It shows that the relationships of the characters should at least be somewhat evident.

 

[Dashell]

Hey can we go back to that argument on whether or not Tifa thought the Promise Scene was fake? I found this in the UO:

つづいて給水塔でのことを思い返すふたり。 満天の星空の記憶こそ、 クラウドが彼自身である証拠と信じるティファだが、クラウドは納得できない…

Two people continue to rethink back to the water tower. Tifa believes the memory of the starry night is proof of Cloud himself, but Cloud is not able to grasp this.



yeah I know, way the fuck too late

 

[ClerithRaven]

CR, I like you but I'm gonna have to be blunt with you a little.

You're not the only one.

@BOLD WORDS: FFS!!! PLEASE TELL ME YOU'RE NOT SERIOUS!

I don't get what you mean. But, I only reiterated what FHS said.

Girl, no one is talking about plain belief here. The poster of said post posited that we are assuming that "feelings" are romantic when it only comes from C/T and by providing those 2 quotes to support her claim. What I did was to demonstrate how we are not assuming that the said C/T quote is romantic simply for the sake of assuming, unlike the C/A one. Don't steer us away from the point please.

Then you do not get the point I'm making. You only saw the word believe and automatically assume that I only meant belief. What I meant was, if it was said outright, that's what you'll accept as truth. But if it were only hints, then no, that can't be accepted as fact, therefore, nil.

Get it now?

But of course. No one here said they did not. But here's the point: with the Simba/Mufasa example, we are then to realize that said quote isn't inherently romantic and is not necessarily taken as such.

The point I was making is this:

1. Simba loved his Father (Mufasa) dearly.
2. Mufasa felt the same for his son.
3. Both are very important for each other.
4. Mufasa will live on in Simba.

Put in Aerith and Cloud there.

No. She also lives in the heart of her friends.

Show me.

And said context say otherwise. You're welcome.

How'd you get that?

No, I don't. What I want you to do, however, is to explain to me how that quote outright says it is of romance that is of equal weight of the very direct quotes C/T has. And I would appreciate it more if you don't lump me with those people with the press release mentality because I am very much capable of feeding myself, with or without spoon.

This is the problem. People say that they look at things considering the context of everything else. But when it comes to Clerith, no, even if the context says there's something, unless SE says they were in love, they're not.

Fact is, Aerith and Cloud weren't given the same chance that Tifa and Cloud had. Sephy had to go in the way and ruin everything.

Unnecessarily. Not inherently.

Then SE shouldn't connect Cloud's heart to Aerith's death. It certainly gives off the wrong impression. Oh wait, no it doesn't. We just assume too much.

And for this, I'm going to quote Splintered:

That's because they already automatically assume the audience of over a decade doesn't need to be told the obvious. It shows that the relationships of the characters should at least be somewhat evident.

You could have just said, yeah, that's it.

 

[Vendel]

VendelFor one thing, SE called Aerith and Tifa "love rivals" in Tifa's profile of the 10th AU; SE said in the FFVII Game Manual that Aerith was more interested in the deepening love triangle between herself, Cloud, and Tifa; and Sesc gave us a quote from the SE website where Nomura said he didn't know whether Cloud and Tifa were romantically involved before AC. If you ask me, SE has pretty obviously left the LT up to the players.

I'm still not sure how killing one leg of a triangle and having the other two legs be together is "leaving it up to the players"? Seems like a basic storytelling fail on Squares part if that is what they were trying to say.

Because feelings can change in two years.

This is a non-answer if I ever saw one.

You build up this scenario where C/T reveal mutual feelings that they don't love each other romantically (LA). Then several months after that fact when Cloud is becoming distant and Tifa wonders if Cloud loves her your answer is "feeling can change"?

There seems to be a few dots missing. Because these do not connect.

But wouldn'tit make a difference if they supposedly have a love relationship at that time?

No, it wouldn't.

And I don't see SE being straightforward at all. I see SE throwing hints to both sides and leaving it up in the air.

Right. Because statement like "She and Cloud came to realize their feelings for each other in the end of the story, and live together in AC and DC." are just dripping with ambiguity.

It's probably German for 'A Whale's vagina'.

BTW, when I first finished the game, I hadn't even heard of the Love Triangle yet. I didn't even read the Game Manual first. So my opinion was pretty unbiased, and I thought it was clear that Cloud loved Aerith - not Tifa.

And on a second play through you should have picked up on all those little plot points that seemed unimportant the first time around.

And for the record. Going into AC I had zero thoughts about who Cloud loved. I was aware of the LT but that is it. After watching the movie the first thing I read about it at length was one of your essays. Needless to say I found it lacking. So congratulations, you create me Anastar.

Answer me this: Why is Tifa the only one worried about it? No one else even seems to care about it, including Cloud.

"I don’t think I’m fit to save anyone. Not family, not friends . . . no one."

-The more he realizes how happy he is living with Tifa and the children, the more the fear of losing that and regrets toward the past trouble Cloud…

-With the support of former allies and Tifa, an important woman to him and now also part of his family, Cloud regains the courage to move forward.

Clearly.

Good questions, actually. The obvious answer would be that the "friends" she was talking about when she said "family of friends" were Cloud, Marlene, and Barret.

And here I thought all of Avalanche were her family? I have seen that idea pushed often. But I guess the rest of them get thrown out the window if you have to come up with a reason why Denzel doesn't know them.

But fine. I don't ever want to see you saying that any of them are a part of the family again.

So that leaves us with 5. Which is curious that Barret is never mentioned as part of the 7th heaven family. But let's ignore that for now. How does Marlene fit into this family of friends who share the same sins? Tifa calls her daughter in one of the translation of CoT I saw. Is she her daughter-friend who shares her sins and such? How about Denzel?

And again why is Tifa worried about a "real" family if they are only made up of friends? But not all of their friends mind.

Then complain to Tifa - she's the one who called them a "family of friends".

No, she doesn't. As Barret is leaving she thinks back on her friends who struggled together with her. After this point she worries about being part of a REAL family.

It matters because the person writing the question in the first place said that Cloud decided to make a family with Tifa. Um, no - he didn't have anything to do with the decision if Marlene invited Cloud in instead of vice versa.

Cloud decided to be with Tifa from the offset. And you don't exactly see him reject the idea of starting a family with her. It doesn't matter how it started. It's Cloud and Tifa's family.

It's called "Cloud's office" by whom?

The story itself.

And how do you know he doesn't sleep there?

Because it's his office.

If Nomura said that he's leaving Cloud and Tifa's relationship up to the players,

He didn't.

See the highlighted part? I saw nothing describing the sleeping arrangements between C/T after they pick up Marlene, either, or what the sleeping arrangements were in the Seventh Heaven except for the bit about Marlene sleeping with Tifa.

"Do you love me"?

 

[Madame Mayor]

No. She also lives in the heart of her friends.

Show me.

http://thelifestream.net/final-fantasy-vii/604/aerith-gainsborough-character-profile-p48-51/

Two years after returning to the planet, Aerith still lives on in the hearts of her friends who saved the planet.

 

[ClerithRaven]

I'm still not sure how killing one leg of a triangle and having the other two legs be together is "leaving it up to the players"? Seems like a basic storytelling fail on Squares part if that is what they were trying to say.

Aerith is pretty much present. Death isn't the end of the LT.

You build up this scenario where C/T reveal mutual feelings that they don't love each other romantically (LA). Then several months after that fact when Cloud is becoming distant and Tifa wonders if Cloud loves her your answer is "feeling can change"?

Maybe because whatever feelings they shared in the HW isn't anything which relates to love..?

Right. Because statement like "She and Cloud came to realize their feelings for each other in the end of the story, and live together in AC and DC." are just dripping with ambiguity.

And since Tifa loves Cloud, realizing their feelings for each other automatically means that love is the feeling that they shared with each other.

And here I thought all of Avalanche were her family? I have seen that idea pushed often.

Maybe because they have that picture at the end of AC/C, which is in front of the family picture of just 4.

And again why is Tifa worried about a "real" family if they are only made up of friends? But not all of their friends mind.

Uhm... she doesn't really see their family as a real one? Idk. That's what I saw. A family of friends is not a "real" family for her I guess...

No, she doesn't. As Barret is leaving she thinks back on her friends who struggled together with her. After this point she worries about being part of a REAL family.

Nah. I think she did see them as a family of friends. She said that maybe they could be called a family.

Because it's his office.

Assuming that the room we saw in AC/C, where there were stacks of pictures on the wall, tires in the corner, and the phone used for the delivery service, is Cloud's Office...

Tifa: Cloud, why do you have a bed here in your office? You don't even sleep here.
Cloud: I don't know. Maybe Barret put it there before he left.

LOL.

"Do you love me"?

Cloud: ..... *snores*

It's for fun.

Two years after returning to the planet, Aerith still lives on in the hearts of her friends who saved the planet.

But then, among her friends, only Cloud can see her.
Cloud is the only one with the description of being able to see Aerith because she lives on inside him.

 

[Tina Armstrong]

I just connected the two quotes I've posted before.

Oh, I thought you could show me more specific. Anyway, Cloud will always feel grief about losing Aerith, right? I think I got that already. She got stabbed right infront of him, and Cloud was always very protective about her. So it makes sense. I still don't see that Cloud loves her in a romantic way. It's never been stated that they realized their feelings for eachother etc. (While Cloud and Tifa actually did share their mutual feelings, since it's been stated) And I don't even know if Cloud could love Aerith already after knowing her for a really short period. Some of you C/A supporters (I think Anastar mentioned it before..) thinks that this can be followed up even if Aerith is dead. It just.. makes no sense to me. Are they going to hang out with eachother in Cloud's dreams or something?

Okay, Cloud started a life with Tifa.
He's now living with her and two kids, while hanging out with a dead woman in his dreams and forgetting about that he do have a life, family and a job? That's not healthy.

From what interaction Tifa and Cloud had? What did happen before that? Sorry.

Cloud met Tifa at her bar, and in the end they talked about their promise and Tifa convinced Cloud to stay in AVALANCHE. Then they went to sleep. But we don't know what interaction Cloud and Tifa had that the girl outside was talking about.

So that line of Barret's can mean two things... Oh, ok.

Barret does talk about the two of them, not only Tifa. But I can't say for sure exactly what he meant about it, you know.

Yep, that's what I was asking. So what do you think made the girl say that?

Because they had hawt Cloti smex in the bar?

Oh! Sorry...

No worries!

Glad to see we're eye-to-eye.

Me too!

I'm baaaack!

Hurray!

 

[Madame Mayor]

Cloud is the only one with the description of being able to see Aerith because she lives on inside him.

I'm not sure the point being made here. Aerith lives on inside the hearts of her friends. She makes herself visible to Cloud, one of the people who has her in their heart, to help him get over his guilt for letting her die. Maybe it will help if I quote the rest of the paragraph:

And in particular to Cloud, as a symbol of his failure to having being unable protect those dear to him, she was a major factor in causing him to close himself off. For Cloud, and the world once again faced with danger, she reaches out and offers her aid. In that sense she is like a mother watching over the entire planet, and it gives the feeling that she lives in every part of the world.

 

[Splintered]

But then, among her friends, only Cloud can see her.
Cloud is the only one with the description of being able to see Aerith because she lives on inside him.

I like this image. I imagine Aerith setting up her room somewhere in Cloud's spleen, setting up flowers next to her bed. Although in my head, she's terrible at keeping her room clean.

Anyway, what about Zack then? He can see Zack, he can talk to him. Does Zack pay rent for live-in Cloud rights too?

That said, I'm going to say that Cloud-Aerith do have a special bond beyond Aerith-other party members. It's just that "live on in your heart" doesn't mean it quite literally. Nor is Aerith running around talking to people exactly the status quo.

 

[Marle]

A little late on this one but it should be addressed regardless.

Tifa is not "nothing" to Cloud, that I agree with. I don't think there is a "mutual rejection". Not all Cleriths have the same opinion on something.

I knew that hun! I was just speaking generally, and didn't mean that all cleriths had this viewpoint. Just that it was a point brought up in this thread that sort of bothered me.

Oh, and one more thing:

And since Tifa loves Cloud, realizing their feelings for each other automatically means that love is the feeling that they shared with each other.

Key word; MUTUAL. If the feelings are mutual and we know what Tifa's feelings are for Cloud, then we can conclude that these feelings are of romantic nature, yes?

 

[Alessa Gillespie]

Personally, I feel like Aerith and Cloud's situation can be related by a song from the Lion King, but I don't feel like me posting it would explain it any better.

Also, Kadaj sees Aerith when he dies, does that mean they have some sort of special secret bond Cloud was not aware of? And moreover, if Cloud loved Aerith (I personally think he did but I know a good chunk of the forum would hop on my bum and stomp it into the ground for saying a thing like that), that doesn't mean he can continue to have a relationship with her now that she has deceased. Points of order: Lucrecia ain't really dead, she's immortal like Vincent in that shitty crystal. Dyne loved his wife but they could only meet postmortem. Yes, there are characters that love their dead loved ones (Barret loves his wife, Elmyra loves her husband) in FF7, but that doesn't mean that any of them fool themselves into thinking they can go and snoodle with them any time they feel like.

Even with Aerith being half-cetra, there wasn't any evidence her mom dropped by to visit her, and she was full cetra. If this wasn't possible for her, why would it be possible for someone with half the magical capabilities?

 

[Marle]

Aki, just a question out of curiosity really; do you feel that Cloud 'settled' for Tifa because he couldn't be with Aerith? I'm genuinely just curious about how you see that.

I'm interested to see how it works with the idea that Cloud did love Aerith but still stayed with Tifa and will definitely not hop on your bum and stomp on it for it.

New perspectives/opinions are always of interest.

 

[Fairheartstrife]

Aerith is pretty much present. Death isn't the end of the LT.

Seriously? Someone dying isn't the end of a 'could-be' romance?? Necrophilia, then?

Maybe because whatever feelings they shared in the HW isn't anything which relates to love..?

**head to desk**

And since Tifa loves Cloud, realizing their feelings for each other automatically means that love is the feeling that they shared with each other.

MUTUAL feelings. Tifa loves Cloud, so in order to exchange MUTUAL (<--this word is important) it can't be one-sided. That's just basic common sense.

Maybe because they have that picture at the end of AC/C, which is in front of the family picture of just 4.

Uhm... she doesn't really see their family as a real one? Idk. That's what I saw. A family of friends is not a "real" family for her I guess...

Nah. I think she did see them as a family of friends. She said that maybe they could be called a family.

I just...wut?

Assuming that the room we saw in AC/C, where there were stacks of pictures on the wall, tires in the corner, and the phone used for the delivery service, is Cloud's Office...

Tifa: Cloud, why do you have a bed here in your office? You don't even sleep here.
Cloud: I don't know. Maybe Barret put it there before he left.

LOL.

Orrrr...

Tifa: "Where should we stick the spare cot?"
Cloud: "Just put it in my office. The only one that uses it is Barret when he comes to visit."

Oooorrr...

Cloud: "I hate waking you when I come back late for deliveries, so I'm gonna stick a cot in my office."

Oooooor

It's a damn cot. NOT a bed. In an office renovated from a junked out building.

You show me where that room is referred to as Cloud's bedroom. It is ONLY ever referred to as his office.

But then, among her friends, only Cloud can see her.
Cloud is the only one with the description of being able to see Aerith because she lives on inside him.

What? Tifa: "Somehow, I knew you were there." Cloud may get to 'see' her but he isn't the only one that can sense her. Also, does Zack live on in endless love inside of Cloud? Standards. Keep them consistent.

 

[Fairheartstrife]

Nor is Aerith running around talking to people exactly the status quo.

She does phone call the entirity of Edge though... OMG Aerith love orgy!! She lives in ALL of them!!

 

[Alessa Gillespie]

Aki, just a question out of curiosity really; do you feel that Cloud 'settled' for Tifa because he couldn't be with Aerith? I'm genuinely just curious about how you see that.

I'm interested to see how it works with the idea that Cloud did love Aerith but still stayed with Tifa and will definitely not hop on your bum and stomp on it for it.

New perspectives/opinions are always of interest.

Nah, I just feel he genuinely loved both. I think Square's trying to be realistic with that because it's not like you go 'OH WELL I CAN'T BE WITH THIS PERSON SO I WILL SETTLE', I think you can love multiple people at once. If one of them is completely unavailable, you can still love them. At the same time, if your longtime crush says she loves you and you realize you love her back, you can love her too.

It's not really simple in FF7 but I think that's part of why it was portrayed realistically. I mean, think about Locke and Rachel and Locke and Celes. Just because he really loves and is dedicated to Rachel did not stop him from falling for Celes. In the end, he really loved Celes and decided to go for her not because she was a replacement for Rachel, but because he fell in love with her for her.

 

[Splintered]

Nah, I just feel he genuinely loved both. I think Square's trying to be realistic with that because it's not like you go 'OH WELL I CAN'T BE WITH THIS PERSON SO I WILL SETTLE', I think you can love multiple people at once. If one of them is completely unavailable, you can still love them. At the same time, if your longtime crush says she loves you and you realize you love her back, you can love her too.

It's not really simple in FF7 but I think that's part of why it was portrayed realistically. I mean, think about Locke and Rachel and Locke and Celes. Just because he really loves and is dedicated to Rachel did not stop him from falling for Celes. In the end, he really loved Celes and decided to go for her not because she was a replacement for Rachel, but because he fell in love with her for her.

I love this post. I wish more people thought that Cloud could have a genuinely endearing relationship and feelings for more than one person, and that it doesn't negate the other.

Also, idea of "settling" for Aerith and Tifa is lol. That's one hell of a settle.

 

[Marle]

Nah, I just feel he genuinely loved both. I think Square's trying to be realistic with that because it's not like you go 'OH WELL I CAN'T BE WITH THIS PERSON SO I WILL SETTLE', I think you can love multiple people at once. If one of them is completely unavailable, you can still love them. At the same time, if your longtime crush says she loves you and you realize you love her back, you can love her too.

It's not really simple in FF7 but I think that's part of why it was portrayed realistically. I mean, think about Locke and Rachel and Locke and Celes. Just because he really loves and is dedicated to Rachel did not stop him from falling for Celes. In the end, he really loved Celes and decided to go for her not because she was a replacement for Rachel, but because he fell in love with her for her.

I love how you compared it to Rachel/Locke/Celes. I just know some people think Cloud 'settled' for Tifa because Aerith died and I agree, it's a stupid notion and I sort of knew that was definitely not what you thought. Hence the reason I asked.

When it comes to the idea of Cloud being in love with Aerith, I'm always sort of confused about it and pretty indecisive. So I'm always trying to get different perspectives on it. Your reply was awesome though, so thanks! It reminds me of the whole Zack/Aerith/Cloud thing and seeing as how I believe it's possible for her to have loved both men (granted, at varying degrees throughout her life) then your point also makes sense.

What Splintered said, too; wish more people saw it the way you did.

 

[Lady Lifestream]

(So many posts... I guess I should cry right now while I'm trying to answer this... that's a lot to read!!)

Claim: The quotes about the Highwind Scene are not equivocal.
So, okay, we'll do it all again.
* The feelings Cloud and Tifa convey under the Highwind are portrayed as:
---> matching
---> mutual
---> being confirmed
* The feelings are said to be shared in either version
* The Ultimania says that those feelings are feelings of mutual desire for each other in the High Version
* The Love-Page confirms that
* The Ultimania states that the conversation ends apathetic in the Low Version
I guess we all know the Highwind quotes.
So it was said that mutual feelings are shared and that they match; in addition, it was also said that these feelings are of mutual desire for each other in the High Version.
So if these feelings are only feelings of love in the High Version, the feelings in the Low Version are likely not since the conversation ends apathetic.
Also, remember that the feelings were only said to be of love in the High Version.
When the Ultimania shows a short text under the High Version picture, the text just says they share undefined feelings; however, the nature of the feelings in the High Version is again clarified as being those of love by the headline itself.
So if we look again at the Highwind quotes saying they conveyed matching feelings for each other, you can't be sure weither version is adressed or if there was a certain version adressed.
I call this equivocal.

Claim: Rosa didn't ever confirm her love towards Cecil using the word "love", so her situation is comparable to FFVII's situation.
Didn't they marry later? I also believe Kain said something like giving up on Rosa... and they were depicted together in some Amano artworks, I think. I didn't play the game, so I can't tell... also, wasn't she a White Mage? Then she fits quite well into the pattern of other Final Fantasies, I think, though this doesn't make anything official. While the lover was always a strong physical fighter, the beloved heroine was always a strong magical fighter, and I think there was no exception yet. This would make Kain a possible choice, though... however, is there any official statement that says that Cecil and Rosa are in love?

Claim: Every group member has undying feelings for Aerith and Cloud's feelings are nothing special.
I guess there is a double no.
First no: Though it was said that every member carries feelings for Aerith inside, Cloud was said to carry his own undying feelings towards her in his heart. So he feels feelings towards Aerith like the rest of the group, but those feelings differ from the rest.
Second no: The feelings of the group are not undying. They are said to carry feelings towards her; however, only Cloud's feelings are said to be undying.

Claim: Tifa's character is bright and optimistic.
Doesn't this contradict her character?
She is called a wimp by Barret at one point, she constantly worries about anything (mostly Cloud), it's said she only tries to act bright and optimistic because she wants to conceal her "weak side" and her constant pessimistic worrying, and so on.
And also, Barret says that - if Tifa doesn't work - she will drown in worries and then she won't do anything but that.
So I think the "bright and optimistic" part was also part of her facade...?

Claim: The DoC manual isn't accurate by saying Cloud is an Ex-Soldier.
However, some versions on AC say so. ("You're still fighting as good as back at the time when you were in SOLDIER.")
Also, they likely mean his fantasy memory about that.

 

[Splintered]

Claim: Tifa's character is bright and optimistic.
Doesn't this contradict her character?

No, it's only one facet of her character. This is what happens when you make a character that's not one dimensional. There is a part of Tifa that is optimistic, that does tend to see the bright side of things, that emotionally support other characters.

And there is also a side of her that is emotionally vulnerable. Tifa's a character that tries to stay strong, but on occasion she stumbles and she stays down, but she also gets back up on her feet. If she was truly a straight pessimist, I don't think she would have been able to overcome the issues that she has.

That's like saying that Aerith was indecisive and cautious because of the doubts and confusion during her stay at Cosmo Canyon when she had trouble coming to terms what being an Ancient meant. But in all honesty, that was just a piece of the complexity of her character.

And also, Barret says that - if Tifa doesn't work - she will drown in worries and then she won't do anything but that.

This was post FFVII, Tifa's home had been destroyed and she had been suffering from survivor's guilt, and the guilt of the people she hurt. This was probably the all time most "down" moment in her life, with maybe the exception of her first home burning and Cloud's breakdown. Both are extraordinary moments that don't reflect the whole of her life. But it does highlight the weakness.

I do think there's a part of her that hides her worry and guilt under the pretense of being cheery. But I also think that the positive side of her is very much there, and if it weren't for it, there's no way to explain how she overcome her problems.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Why do you say Pseudo-Jesus Aerith? How did she act that way?

She didn't. People tend to treat her in that respect, though, as if she was innocence and light the whole way through.

Fact is, Aerith only lives on in one person's consciousness. That person must value Aerith so much that he's the only one with that kind of connection with Aerith.

This has been addressed already as not the case- she lives on in everyone's heart, but I also want to establish two other things- this would make the same true of Zack, and that Living on in his consciousness is by no means literal. It's related to 'memetic legacy' or remembering her. It's also not a deal exclusive to just him and Aerith.

So... Being engraved in another person's heart is not something to be taken romantically. Ok then.

Since it idiomatically means 'won't forget' and I've seen it used to refer to people the speaker wanted dead, no. Not automatically. And in this case, probably not either.
Unless you want to grant the promise which is also engraved is romantically remembered in equal measure, anyways.

Who that "one" is, is assumed to be Cloud because of the HW scene, am I right?

You could have just said, yeah, that's it.

Here's the part of these two posts I really want to get at. Because the answer is actually no. It's not because of the highwind scene. Now, yes, the highwind scene will be part of the synthesis of evidence leading to this conclusion, but it is not a lynchpin. If we are capable of applying context to lead to a synthesis -And we must be to rationally conclude Woman is Aerith, rather than simply parroting that it is from someone else's conclusion- there is sufficient evidence to come to a conclusion on who Tifa is the beloved of. We assume only that the answer is somehow relevant to what we know, and that this woman is not some hitherto unknown dead ancient woman with a crush on Cloud.

With Tifa's 'beloved-er' if you will, we can assume that we are being told she is a beloved to explain her relation to an existing character. Of the existing characters, only three people have ever openly expressed an interest in Tifa that we know of- Cloud, Rude, and Johnny, all at different points.
We can assume that, being in the reunion files, the quote is relevant specifically to the Movie and not just the whole universe. Johnny's not in the film. He's out. That leaves Rude and Cloud. At no point to my recollection are Tifa and Rude referred to in association with each other, or even on the same screen at once (There may be one or two shots in the kid's bedroom, but these do not stand out to me). Cloud and Tifa, by contrast, are constantly associated with each other. They have a future together. They were made to compliment each other visually. They belong together according to the head writer, and he's known this since the first.
Unless the statement has no meaning to add to a deeper understanding of the narrative, it really only stands to reason that who she is the beloved of is someone she is close to, and associated with. That, more than anyone else, is Cloud.

Personally, I feel like Aerith and Cloud's situation can be related by a song from the Lion King, but I don't feel like me posting it would explain it any better.

Aerith would be a mighty King, like no king was before?
Or does Cloud need to be prepared?

Also, Kadaj sees Aerith when he dies, does that mean they have some sort of special secret bond Cloud was not aware of? And moreover, if Cloud loved Aerith (I personally think he did but I know a good chunk of the forum would hop on my bum and stomp it into the ground for saying a thing like that),

Not really, I don't think. Sure, I'd want you to provide a strong empirical and/or narrative case for it, and probably keep prodding you to do so, but that's just because I are in literary analysis mode right now.

Points of order: Lucrecia ain't really dead, she's immortal like Vincent in that shitty crystal. Dyne loved his wife but they could only meet postmortem. Yes, there are characters that love their dead loved ones (Barret loves his wife, Elmyra loves her husband) in FF7, but that doesn't mean that any of them fool themselves into thinking they can go and snoodle with them any time they feel like.

Well, Vinnie can snoodle with the crystal, but that would just be silly.

Even with Aerith being half-cetra, there wasn't any evidence her mom dropped by to visit her, and she was full cetra. If this wasn't possible for her, why would it be possible for someone with half the magical capabilities?

Because all half breeds in Anime are more powerful than the fullbloods ever were? Likewise, I'm wondering why if it's possible, it's not done more often, as it was by a lot more people, like on Spira. And why, even if possible only for Aerith (Oh, and Zack), she waited two years to do it.
I, personally, hypothesize- and I think you agree with this, actually, so know I'm just saying this for the benefit of everyone- that the reason Zack and Aerith can appear at all is the same reason the Remnants appeared in the first place- the Lifestream was so agitated and disordered that it could be directly arranged to create will made form and allow the dead to once again directly touch the world of the living.

Nah, I just feel he genuinely loved both. I think Square's trying to be realistic with that because it's not like you go 'OH WELL I CAN'T BE WITH THIS PERSON SO I WILL SETTLE', I think you can love multiple people at once. If one of them is completely unavailable, you can still love them. At the same time, if your longtime crush says she loves you and you realize you love her back, you can love her too.

It's not really simple in FF7 but I think that's part of why it was portrayed realistically. I mean, think about Locke and Rachel and Locke and Celes. Just because he really loves and is dedicated to Rachel did not stop him from falling for Celes. In the end, he really loved Celes and decided to go for her not because she was a replacement for Rachel, but because he fell in love with her for her.

I love this post. I wish more people thought that Cloud could have a genuinely endearing relationship and feelings for more than one person, and that it doesn't negate the other.

Also, idea of "settling" for Aerith and Tifa is lol. That's one hell of a settle.

I love how you compared it to Rachel/Locke/Celes. I just know some people think Cloud 'settled' for Tifa because Aerith died and I agree, it's a stupid notion and I sort of knew that was definitely not what you thought. Hence the reason I asked.

When it comes to the idea of Cloud being in love with Aerith, I'm always sort of confused about it and pretty indecisive. So I'm always trying to get different perspectives on it. Your reply was awesome though, so thanks! It reminds me of the whole Zack/Aerith/Cloud thing and seeing as how I believe it's possible for her to have loved both men (granted, at varying degrees throughout her life) then your point also makes sense.

What Splintered said, too; wish more people saw it the way you did.

Quoting all of that before a reply because, well, I agree. Not that he loved them both romantically, I am going to be a hardliner on establishing the case for that one- though that's a matter of principle rather than preference, I are in literary analysis mode after all- but I do agree he could easily love both women. It's more than possible, and that choosing to be with one while the other one is not around is no mere settling for the other, it is moving closer to someone he already loved.

 

[Fairheartstrife]

I do think there's a part of her that hides her worry and guilt under the pretense of being cheery. But I also think that the positive side of her is very much there, and if it weren't for it, there's no way to explain how she overcome her problems.

She'd be Cloud

Seriously: "We can help each other I know we can." "Let's fight it together." "Just do your best." "The bad guys, naturally." "Oh, Cloud, your hair looks like a Chocobo!" "High Voltage Tower, I guess that means Cloud will be all right."

Just a few of Tifa's brighter moments. Yes, I know the first two are from a rather depressing conversation, but the fact that she wants to fight--to TRY--just speaks volumes about her character. You don't have to like her, but at least be honest in the reasons behind it and not try and malign the creator's OWN words. The guys that developed her--yeah, THEY call her bright and optimistic. Sorry, but fandom opinion holds no weight in comparison.

For a looooong time I hated Aerith based on fandoms martyring and materia-jesusing her. Then, I put it aside, replayed the game, played CC, and decided to try an unbiased view. She's still not my favorite character, but she's in my top 5 now--something that anyone debating me 2 years ago would have thought impossible. Not liking a fandom character is fine. You don't like her tits, slutty appearance, overly protective/dependence on Cloud. Preach it! But don't use things that are blatant contridictions to the creators' own statements. That's just fool logic and faulty arguing.

Also, back to the 'mutual feelings'... we KNOW Tifa loves Cloud. This is NOT optional. Whether they confirm with out words, ala sexing, or have a brief conversation the feelings are mutual--and in the morning no matter which 'version' you get they are CUDDLING on that outcropping. Come on, really?? It's that hard to accept?

 

[ClerithRaven]

Now I'm in deep heat. I have to study and here I am. Replying to so many posts... I'll just answer in general then, just like LL.

Claim: Since Aerith is dead, physical interactions are not possible, therefore love cannot possibly continue or even be an option.

I don't think so. Love for a person goes on even if said person was dead. How much more if you could actually see the person in your *dreams* or a *suspended reality*.
Death isn't the end of everything. Death doesn't mean that love has to stop or cannot continue. Barret and Dyne remained single even though their wives had died, same goes for Elmyra. Why is it not possible for Cloud to continue loving Aerith?
I am not saying that Cloud can't move on with Tifa. He can. Maybe he will after ACC, though I did not see that in DoC. But it does not necessitate Cloud to abandon feelings of love for Aerith just because they can't touch.

Claim: A girl talked about Cloud and Tifa being more than "childhood friends".

This i cannot grasp completely. There are no specifics which merit the response from the girl. Unless we put assumptions in the event.
And from what I remember, the promise was mentioned, but Cloud claimed he forgot it. He only agreed to help them because of the money. Even if the words "childhood friends" were said in the dialogue, Cloud didn't act the part.
So, from these, I conclude that the girl was kind of questioning/mocking the claim that they were childhood friends.
This is only the start of the game though.

Claim: Barret's calls out Cloud and Tifa for lingering with each other too much. This may be taken to meaning that they were having some kind of romantic interaction. (?)

Like I said, they were on a mission. Time is of the essence. Barret calling them out on it may be because he wanted to get the mission done without being too late.

Claim: Aerith lives on in the hearts of all her friends. She appears to Cloud in ACC only to help him free himself of his guilt.

That's not the case as Nomura himself said so.

As for Cloud... he sees Aerith several times throughout
the film. It's not that he sees her because he feels her presence. He sees her because her consciousness lives on inside him[i/].

Even if Aerith lives on in the heart of all of her friends, only Cloud is able to see her because her spirit is with him always. Yes, her friends remember her, but it is Cloud that her spirit is with.

Claim: Cloud sees Zack, therefore the latter lives on in his consciousness too.

The first time Cloud and Zack have an interaction in ACC, Cloud wasn't able to really see Zack, but they talked. Zack gave him a boost, appearing to him to encourage him. Why he was able to do it though, is left to interpretation.
I remember claiming that maybe Aerith helped Zack, like how she helped Tifa during the Lifestream event. It was a one-time thing, I guess.
The second time, Cloud did see Zack, although he was far away. I remember somewhere that those who had just come from the Lifestream and are going back there soon could be able to see those who are in the Lifestream.
This is the explanation I have for why Cloud saw Zack then. He had just been baptized in a sense, sort of reborn, and he did come from the Lifestream where he was healed by Aerith.

Claim: Ifalna was a full Cetra, but she cannot visit Aerith. Aerith is only half-Cetra, so how would it be possible for her to visit Cloud?

True, we don't see evidence of Ifalna visiting Aerith. But in the Temple of the Ancients, one was able to spiritually manifest itself there.
Actually, I don't remember Aerith being able to see Ifalna even after she came to the Lifestream. So, where do the Cetra really go after death? I'm curious about it. Maybe that's somewhere beyond the Lifestream. Since Aerith is only half of a Cetra, she can only go halfway. Just a theory, nonetheless.

Fact is, Aerith already did it. What's to stop her from doing it again?

Claim: Cloud and Tifa shared mutual feelings during the HA HW scene.

Sure they did. Because Tifa loves Cloud, so for the feelings to be mutual, Cloud must also feel love for Tifa. The only feeling they could share in the HW scene is love.
But, they could also share an apathetic night if the affection is low, from the date mechanism?

Claim: Tifa sensed Aerith, even if she didn't see her, she also felt her presence. It wasn't just Cloud who feel her presence.

Where have I said that only Cloud can feel Aerith's presence? My claim was only Cloud can *see* Aerith among her living friends because of what Nomura had said. Sheesh. Complain to him then. LOL.
Also, her line implies that she was thinking that Aerith was helping Cloud, being there for him. Seeing the water droplet, it reminded her of Aerith. So she said her line. It doesn't necessarily mean that she felt Aerith's presence. She just knew that Aerith was there for Cloud at the greatest battle of his life. Why wouldn't she be? She loves the man.

If I missed something, point it out. I'll get back to it tomorrow.

It's been fun!