It is possible too. But until Se provides us with more facts regarding what happened, we're only left with assumptions. Oh well.
And thus, logically, we should not assume anything extraordinary. Employ Okkam. Embrace parsimony.
So what happened to all the Cetra who should have been in the Lifestream?
Ifalna and Gast should be reunited by now with Aerith. But nowhere is that seen. I guess, SE forgot to make things more believable. They can't really keep things in a straight line, IMO.
They're been transformed and reborn as new living organisms.
Oh. I get it.
All the OTWTAS stories happen over the course of about two years, natch.
Still, that's what happens in the LA HW scene. No mutual feelings of love were shared.
Yes. Nothing is shared in the low version. This runs contrary to established continuity in which things ARE shared.
Likewise, shadow dying runs contrary to the actual events of the story, but it can still happen in your game.
But for those who played the game with their 'Cloud' having a low affection for Tifa, that scene did happen. It is just that the HW scene fits whatever happens next to the game.
That's messed up IMO. They should just have made the HW scene non optional if they intended it.
But we're talking the official narrative. I've played FF7 so many times that I've gotten all four dates, saved Corel, blew it up, kept and lost all the huge materia, gotten and ignored Vincent and Yuffie.
In FFVI, I've killed and saved Shadow, I've let Cid die and saved his life. I've assaulted Kefka with no one and with everyone and maybe everything in between.
What MY experience and what the NARRATIVE is are not the same thing. Sometimes, what's in the game and what's 'the truth' aren't even the same thing.
Let me tell you about a few games in the series Castlevania.
In one of the early games in the series, Castlevania 3 for folks in the states (And I think everywhere but Japan), the main character Trevor (or Ralph, in Japan) Belmont can take one of a few people with him, Grant DaNasty, Sypha Belnades, and Alucard, son of Dracula. He can only take one at a time, and only one can fight Dracula with him. In one of the endings, we learn that Sypha is a woman (to us, the players, and maybe to Trevor. She'd been hiding her gender previous) and she and Trevor have fallen for each other over the course of the journey. They eventually marry some years later, which we know thanks to a couple other games in the series. So, you'd think Sypha was with him when he fought Dracula, right?
The problem is, another game in the series, Symphony of the Night has Alucard remember fighting Dracula alongside Trevor. But the ending with him as companion doesn't include Sypha and Trevor coming to fall for each other. More complicated still, yet another game has Grant reveal he had a crush on Sypha, even though as far as the game's concerned, they, at most, met for three or four seconds before Trevor ditched his ass for Sypha.
So who was with Trevor? They all were, even though that can't happen in the story.
Another example, one slightly more directly related to our discussion about the Highwind scene, concerns the endings of Symphony. There are several ending. Two happen at different completion levels in the story. The difference between them is that a female character either does or does not decide to continue after the main character after he leaves. This change affects absolutely NOTHING as far as future titles go- the next chronological installment does not star any of these characters, and the next appearance of the main character (He's immortal, for reference) contains no mention of the woman from Symphony, and actually takes place several hundred years after his last appearance, actually into our future, long after she would have died. But we can tell which one happened. Because it's been referenced. It doesn't change a damn thing storywise in any later game. But it's what actually happened. Even if you, personally, got the bad end of the game, that's not the one that happened.
Then there's chrono trigger, which involves resurrection AND romance! I have, however, ranted on this subject for long enough. Needless to say, giving you the option to do a thing doesn't mean there's not a 'proper' way to do that thing, and your experience is not the same as narrative, same as mine isn't.
Right. Because you can't possibly love a person who you can't go out to dinner with. No, you have to love someone who is still very much alive, someone who you can actually show to people.
Ah, but that's NOT what I said nor what you reacted to. I said that having RELATIONS with the dead was extraordinary and unsubstantiated. Not loving them. You are attacking a strawman argument here.
You can love a dead person. You can't go on dates with them, spend time with them, have a relationship with them. It's simply not DOABLE.
Yeah. Trying to find someone to forget your guilt and forgive yourself is not moving on from that guilt. Okay then.
MY point is that trying to move on from your guilt is not the same as moving on from someone romantically, hence my specification that he's not 'moving on' from Zack even though he also feels sorrow over Zack's demise. The reason I bring this up is because there's room for some serious equivocation fallacy in the form of switching out these meanings, and I wish to ensure it is forestalled long ahead of time.
This conclusion came from what Eileen was able to provide. That's why I was asking for a clarification because I cannot grasp it completely.
For me, the game begins after your push the Start button or something. It doesn't just start when you get to control the character. So what do you mean by before the game started? You have a source which talks of their interaction before the game began?
Yes. That woman! And many other references in Slum sector 7. Plus the U10. Also one of Tifa's flashbacks to finding Cloud. The game begins, narratively, on Dec 9th. There any many references to events shortly prior to this.
What word? Pertaining? All right, "referring to" then. Geez. You know perfectly well what I was trying to say.
I do. But There is a point to pointing out the erroneous word use again. We're arguing a very literary medium. What words mean is quite important. Getting them wrong again and again does not inspire confidence in one's ability to comprehend them, basically.
There were quotes on how mean Cloud can be to Tifa. Barret's line wasn't included since it didn't concern him at the time.
1. How is that mean, and more importantly...
2. Why do you need examples of Cloud being 'mean' to Tifa? This isn't a silly attempt at quantitatively analyzing the LTD, is it?
It's the same for me. Unless, you can provide me with a better term for what Cloud did. Still, it was pretty mean of him. Oh well, he was cold to people.
Commiseration. Bolstering. 'It's too late now' is merely a statement that there's no backing down at this point. It's not being mean to spur her into action by reminding her there's no turning back, same as it's not mean in any other example of the phrase being used in media.
So living people are reduced to being memories rather than spiritual beings after death? Okay.
In their world spiritual beings ARE memories.
Unless I'm missing a quote or something where it says that that's the *only* reason why she showed herself to Cloud, this is only part of it.
Actually, unless YOU have a quote that says she shows up for another reason, that's the whole of it that we can actually state as explicitly so, because neither Aerith nor any other source declares an additional reason for her appearing to Cloud and Kadaj.
The 'labyrinth of his heart' is what then? It's about how he is lost in his emotions?
Thoughts, emotions, memories, doubts, etc. Aerith's appearance is linked with helping him out of said labyrinth. It's a metaphor for Cloud looking for answers, maybe even getting lost in the struggle. Hell,
Let me google the phrase for you. It's basically self-help spiritual jargon.
Oh. My bad. I thought it was just on of those times he almost closed his fist then opened them again before he died. Comparing it to when Cloud held Aerith's hand, yeah it's similar.
About her being reflected in his eyes, when I watched it again, I tried getting a snapshot of his eyes. There seem to be a figure there. But it remained unmoving, like it's the reflection of the light or something. If you could get a clearer shot of his eyes where Aerith's reflection is clear, could you post it?
As I've been asked for this and another instance where Cloud seems to be reflected in Kadaj's eye at another point, I'll try and get to this tonight.
I forgot about it. I did not ignore it.
She called them on the phone. But she did not appear to them. Idk what to make of it really. SE decided to let the audience see Aerith fully at the end. I don't think they thought about us debating why Aerith was able to do so. She just did.
My point was that she can contact other people. Even people she's never met.
My head is hurting from all this thinking. So I'm gonna give it my best shot here.
I didn't say it was meaningless. Did I say that?
I just said that Aerith did not need to make Tifa or Marlene sense her. They could have sensed her on their own because they knew/thought/hoped that she was there for Cloud.
I'm kind of puzzled why the 'because they knew/thought/hoped that she was there for Cloud' comes into the equation. Can they not have sensed her because they knew she was their for them, too?
For Marlene, she wasn't really sure it was Aerith. But seeing as she thought it was Aerith, that maybe what she was hoping for.
Twice, though, she reacts noticably to Aerith's actions before they happen. She's surprised it's Aerith (Big Sis) in AC/C, but she's surprised at the presence, she's sure it's Aerith.
For Tifa, she knew what Aerith felt for Cloud. So she would also assume that Aerith would be there for him.
But she could also assume that Aerith would be there for her. And everyone else. Tifa thanks her for being there for 'us' in the plural.
I was just incorporating Tres's claim that Aerith can choose to whome she appears to or calls to. Having the ability to choose is powerful in itself. That's just me though.
Not necessarily. It's the question of visual illusion vs mental illusion. Being able to talk telepathically to one or two people is less powerful than having the ability to talk to hundreds. Same with projecting an image of yourself.
Contrariwise, if she's physically present- which, well, she's almost certainly not- then yes, obfuscating her presence from a number of people is easier than hiding from one or two. But that requires even further assumptions than the ability to speak telepathically with people, something established several times in universe as possible to do.
GLD, I am trying here. Really. But with every quote we provide, you keep coming back to the idea that it's only because of guilt or sorrow for losing a friend. To you, Aerith is just a friend. That's what hindering you from seeing our side as it is. I'm talking in general here.
The problem isn't that 'to us' Aerith is 'just a friend,' but that taking her as something more is the very thing that needs to be substantiated. Aerith being something more than a friend to Cloud is the very thing the Clerith argument needs to establish, WANTS to establish. Making arguments based off of it is assuming the consequent.
I was talking about the feelings of love there. But okay. You saw it that way, fine by me.
But it was being used in comparison to C/A, so you'd either be arguing the feelings of love on both sides are fillial, or are both romantic, without the comparison becoming largely meaningless.
So now we ignore and misinterpret things?
Tell me this then: because Cloud and Tifa are living together in CoT, then the story canon is the HW scene? Is that it? Without SE ever saying that it IS the story canon?
The actual narrative is the HW scne but for reasons entirely other than just 'Cloud and Tifa live together in CoT.'
SE made up for it by making Aerith able to appear to Cloud.
And also made Zack able to appear to him as well. And then had the end of the moving emphasize both of them leaving for where they belong, even as Cloud realizes he belongs back with Tifa and the kids.
I think you meant symbolism here. If you really meant an idiom, show me what idiom was used and how it was used.
I'm rather certain MB meant idiom as you are discussing a common Japanese idiom for that which cannot be forgotten, and which I have noted can be used in decidedly unromantic scenarios.
Also which was used to refer to the promise at the water tower.
Are you taking it literally? That's just great, because I'm not. I think in one of my next posts, I put in "spiritual" there so no one would claim that Aerith lives inside Cloud's physical body.
This just makes your statement insulting. If you keep doing that, I'm withdrawing from my debate with you.
How else would she live on inside him, though? Please, do elucidate. Because if we're going to keep talking about this, I think you need to be clear what YOU think it means when it says 'lives on in his consciousness'
Simple questions can be answered in a simple way as well.
Incidentally, you never did reply to the answer I gave here. So here it is reposted, just in case you missed it.
Here's the part of these two posts I really want to get at. Because the answer is actually no. It's not because of the highwind scene. Now, yes, the highwind scene will be part of the synthesis of evidence leading to this conclusion, but it is not a lynchpin. If we are capable of applying context to lead to a synthesis -And we must be to rationally conclude Woman is Aerith, rather than simply parroting that it is from someone else's conclusion- there is sufficient evidence to come to a conclusion on who Tifa is the beloved of. We assume only that the answer is somehow relevant to what we know, and that this woman is not some hitherto unknown dead ancient woman with a crush on Cloud.
With Tifa's 'beloved-er' if you will, we can assume that we are being told she is a beloved to explain her relation to an existing character. Of the existing characters, only three people have ever openly expressed an interest in Tifa that we know of- Cloud, Rude, and Johnny, all at different points.
We can assume that, being in the reunion files, the quote is relevant specifically to the Movie and not just the whole universe. Johnny's not in the film. He's out. That leaves Rude and Cloud. At no point to my recollection are Tifa and Rude referred to in association with each other, or even on the same screen at once (There may be one or two shots in the kid's bedroom, but these do not stand out to me). Cloud and Tifa, by contrast, are constantly associated with each other. They have a future together. They were made to compliment each other visually. They belong together according to the head writer, and he's known this since the first.
Unless the statement has no meaning to add to a deeper understanding of the narrative, it really only stands to reason that who she is the beloved of is someone she is close to, and associated with. That, more than anyone else, is Cloud.
I'm not saying that Cloud should be in a romantic relationship with Aerith even if she's dead. I'm saying that he can continue loving her, and much more so because she can manifest herself to him at times.
You didn't have to go size 7 on that.
Point of order, CR, you asked 'why not' to a point saying one could not have romance with the dead. Not one that said you could not love them.
Alright. Propose an alternate message, then. Chop to it. support it with facts, narrative elements and themes. minimum three pages, single spaced, On my desk by monday.
Which doesn't hold much basis doesn't it? We didn't see what happened that gained that kind of reaction from her. And after this, Cloud doesn't even act like a childhood friend at the least.
This almost sounds like a no true scotsman.
Then why did Barret stop her from telling Cloud?
Because a Mission's no time for mushy stuff.
Where does it say that she can't visit Cloud ever again? She returned to the Lifestream in the game, but she was able to visit Cloud 2 years after. She returned to the Lifestream again, what's to stop her from doing it again?
Once, I fired a rocket launcher round the entire length of a map and pegged a guy right as he respawned. What's to stop me from doing that again?
It's difficult to do. The circumstances have to be absolutely correct to do it.
And if Aerith can do it again, I must again ask why she does not appear a year into the future to give advice, if nothing else? That crisis directly affected her, again.
Again, nowhere does it state that it's her *only* purpose. If it was her only purpose, why do it after two years? She should've done it immediately after Cloud left to find forgiveness if it was her only purpose. Just like your question to me. He has carried the same burden for over two years, even more so when he got Geostigma, depending on CoT's timeline.
This does not follow.
Even if Aerith had other purposes, waiting for two years to appear is STILL at odds with THAT particular purpose for appearing.
What you're doing is assuming Aerith could appear before ACC but chose not to. This is 'able, but unwilling' and paints Areith in a bad light. It's also contradicted by COLW. 'Willing, but unable,' is far more realistic and fits with what we've been told.
Further, you're still 'multiplying entities unnecessarily.' We've been told she appears to those who are troubled to aid them, and that this is why she appears to Cloud. Anything else is an unnecessary assumption.
Why in his heart? He keeps his promise to Tifa etched only in his memory, so why make guilt stay in his heart?
Ah, but this is where you're wrong. They're BOTH in his memory. And his heart. Let me explain.
In point of fact, the exact same phrase was used in Japanese. This phrase means both carved in the heart and carved in the mind because the word used in the phrase means BOTH heart and mind, using heart in the classic sense of 'seat of thought, emotions, and memory'
Japanese has a similar issue with the word for soul being co-opted as the word for DNA. That created some wonky-ass translations, let me tell you. Or wonky ass-translations, for the XKCD fans.
