You're willing to accept that FFV's happy ending happened because the U20 Scenario's story summary for FFV says it did. You're willing to accept that Terra had her revelation about love because the U20 Scenario's story summary for FFVI says it did.
She never said this is why she believes they're canon. In fact she referenced a (apparently non existent) non-optional scene that somehow proved Shadow was alive. If Shadow dies, does he stay dead the whole game? Is he ever scene again? I've never played so I don't know.
I also never saw her say the scene with Terra had a canon version... but maybe I missed it
After the meteor disaster, she's living with 4 people: Cloud, Tifa and moreover, Denzel. Lately the outlook of this 'family' is in pieces, so she mediates everybody's broken hearts.
You say that in the case of the low affection version, Tifa could have questions about Cloud's feelings for her two years later because feelings can change. Meanwhile, you say that in the case of the high affection version, Tifa shouldn't have any doubts about Cloud's feelings for her two years later.
Just to stress it, I'd really like to see a response to this. I mean I've always been told "if they said they loved each other under the highwind, why does she asks if Cloud loves her? Shouldn't she know?" and I'd always say she has doubts or thinks his feelings may have changed... and I was basically told there was no way this happened. Now suddenly, we're getting this "Feelings can change" argument which is the exact same thing I've been saying for years. I mean come on now, if Tifa's wondering if Cloud's feelings changed if the LA scene happened, why NOT the HA scene?
For that matter, I'd like to know when Tifa's feelings changed. Do we have any evidence of this? Of when it happened? What happened to those "motherly" feelings she was having? Are they gone now? When did they go back to romance if she had no romantic interest in Cloud under the HW? This just doesn't seem liner.
Yes. Nothing is shared in the low version. This runs contrary to established continuity in which things ARE shared.
Likewise, shadow dying runs contrary to the actual events of the story, but it can still happen in your game.
And I was saying that the story led you to conclude that the HA version happened for story canon.
Ryu said:
But we're talking the official narrative. I've played FF7 so many times that I've gotten all four dates, saved Corel, blew it up, kept and lost all the huge materia, gotten and ignored Vincent and Yuffie.
In FFVI, I've killed and saved Shadow, I've let Cid die and saved his life. I've assaulted Kefka with no one and with everyone and maybe everything in between.
What MY experience and what the NARRATIVE is are not the same thing. Sometimes, what's in the game and what's 'the truth' aren't even the same thing.
Lucky you. I don't even have a copy or a PS1 at the moment to play the game with. LOL.
Uhm... So the game contradicts the truth?
Ryu said:
Let me tell you about a few games in the series Castlevania.
In one of the early games in the series, Castlevania 3 for folks in the states (And I think everywhere but Japan), the main character Trevor (or Ralph, in Japan) Belmont can take one of a few people with him, Grant DaNasty, Sypha Belnades, and Alucard, son of Dracula. He can only take one at a time, and only one can fight Dracula with him. In one of the endings, we learn that Sypha is a woman (to us, the players, and maybe to Trevor. She'd been hiding her gender previous) and she and Trevor have fallen for each other over the course of the journey. They eventually marry some years later, which we know thanks to a couple other games in the series. So, you'd think Sypha was with him when he fought Dracula, right?
The problem is, another game in the series, Symphony of the Night has Alucard remember fighting Dracula alongside Trevor. But the ending with him as companion doesn't include Sypha and Trevor coming to fall for each other. More complicated still, yet another game has Grant reveal he had a crush on Sypha, even though as far as the game's concerned, they, at most, met for three or four seconds before Trevor ditched his ass for Sypha.
So who was with Trevor? They all were, even though that can't happen in the story.
Another example, one slightly more directly related to our discussion about the Highwind scene, concerns the endings of Symphony. There are several ending. Two happen at different completion levels in the story. The difference between them is that a female character either does or does not decide to continue after the main character after he leaves. This change affects absolutely NOTHING as far as future titles go- the next chronological installment does not star any of these characters, and the next appearance of the main character (He's immortal, for reference) contains no mention of the woman from Symphony, and actually takes place several hundred years after his last appearance, actually into our future, long after she would have died. But we can tell which one happened. Because it's been referenced. It doesn't change a damn thing storywise in any later game. But it's what actually happened. Even if you, personally, got the bad end of the game, that's not the one that happened.
Then there's chrono trigger, which involves resurrection AND romance! I have, however, ranted on this subject for long enough. Needless to say, giving you the option to do a thing doesn't mean there's not a 'proper' way to do that thing, and your experience is not the same as narrative, same as mine isn't.
Uhm. Ok. I understand what you meant even with just the first paragraph.
Ryu said:
Ah, but that's NOT what I said nor what you reacted to. I said that having RELATIONS with the dead was extraordinary and unsubstantiated. Not loving them. You are attacking a strawman argument here.
You can love a dead person. You can't go on dates with them, spend time with them, have a relationship with them. It's simply not DOABLE.
Right. Should've worded that better. I really shouldn't debate when it's 1 am in the morning. LOL.
Is it really impossible to spend time with the dead, or get a visit? I didn't get that impression because of ACC.
But oh well, I'll get into reading the whole of CoLW this break anyway.
MY point is that trying to move on from your guilt is not the same as moving on from someone romantically, hence my specification that he's not 'moving on' from Zack even though he also feels sorrow over Zack's demise. The reason I bring this up is because there's room for some serious equivocation fallacy in the form of switching out these meanings, and I wish to ensure it is forestalled long ahead of time.
But why is the guilt so much for Cloud is Aerith wasn't that important to him?
I know that friends are important, but not as important as someone you love.
Zack is Cloud's friend, but Cloud can visit his grave just fine. With Aerith, no, he can't bring himself to go there without having his emotions stir.
Ryu said:
Yes. That woman! And many other references in Slum sector 7. Plus the U10. Also one of Tifa's flashbacks to finding Cloud. The game begins, narratively, on Dec 9th. There any many references to events shortly prior to this.
Ah. So events prior to the beginning of the game were shown in flashbacks/written in books... Did I get that part?
Ryu said:
I do. But There is a point to pointing out the erroneous word use again. We're arguing a very literary medium. What words mean is quite important. Getting them wrong again and again does not inspire confidence in one's ability to comprehend them, basically.
1. How is that mean, and more importantly...
2. Why do you need examples of Cloud being 'mean' to Tifa? This isn't a silly attempt at quantitatively analyzing the LTD, is it?
1. I took it to mean that Tifa was sharing her fear with Cloud. Cloud's reply didn't seem like one of kindness or of friendliness, hence, it's mean.
2. Because that was mentioned in a thread that existed before. I wasn't going to use it in the LTD. I just commented that Barret's line wasn't included before since it didn't address the "Cloud acted mean towards Tifa at times" topic.
Ryu said:
Commiseration. Bolstering. 'It's too late now' is merely a statement that there's no backing down at this point. It's not being mean to spur her into action by reminding her there's no turning back, same as it's not mean in any other example of the phrase being used in media.
He could've stopped with "It's too late now", but he followed it up with "Why'd you come along anyway?"
And that is not a kind thing to say. Even if it is a question, the fact that Tifa shared her fear, Cloud reacted that way. It's like he's questioning Tifa's reason why she came along if she would just get scared. That's all.
Actually, unless YOU have a quote that says she shows up for another reason, that's the whole of it that we can actually state as explicitly so, because neither Aerith nor any other source declares an additional reason for her appearing to Cloud and Kadaj.
My point is that it didn't say that it was her only reason.
Ryu said:
Thoughts, emotions, memories, doubts, etc. Aerith's appearance is linked with helping him out of said labyrinth. It's a metaphor for Cloud looking for answers, maybe even getting lost in the struggle. Hell, Let me google the phrase for you. It's basically self-help spiritual jargon.
Ryu said:
As I've been asked for this and another instance where Cloud seems to be reflected in Kadaj's eye at another point, I'll try and get to this tonight.
That's visible for basically a single frame. Very easy to miss. I think I comment on it during the commentary track too.
This next one is
Unfortunately, this one's not quite as easy to see, since I had to take these with a camera rather a screengrabber. Hopefully, the figure itself can be seen. This is during Kadaj's death sequence, after her voice first chimes in.
If the second is insufficient, I can try and fix the capture device and take another shot.
I don't really know. It's not like how Aerith came to take Cloud's hand. If Aerith were talking to Kadaj and asking him to go with her back to the Lifestream already, I would think that she should at least be moving a bit. But the reflection in Kadaj's eyes don't. It stays exactly the same.
Incidentally, Clerithraven, we know you've never played the original game- what Compilation materials have you experienced?
And that's why I say she's that powerful to be able to contact all those people at the same time. The phones go off nearly all at the same time. And it's still not comparable to her appearing to Cloud, right when he needed it.
Ryu said:
I'm kind of puzzled why the 'because they knew/thought/hoped that she was there for Cloud' comes into the equation. Can they not have sensed her because they knew she was their for them, too?
I think you meant "there for them". "Their" is a possessive case.
Oh wait, I'm not saying that Aerith wasn't there for all of them. I was just saying that it was easier for them to know that Aerith was there because they were expecting her, or hoping for her to come. Aerith didn't need to make her presence known, they figured it out on their own.
Ryu said:
Twice, though, she reacts noticably to Aerith's actions before they happen. She's surprised it's Aerith (Big Sis) in AC/C, but she's surprised at the presence, she's sure it's Aerith.
My bad. And I know that Big Sis is the Japanese translation, but taking the English one, I took it to mean either: "Is it Aerith?" or "Is Aerith here?"
Ryu said:
But she could also assume that Aerith would be there for her. And everyone else. Tifa thanks her for being there for 'us' in the plural.
Uhm. The "us" plural is in the Japanese version isn't it? I only have the English one. And, what do you think she did for Tifa? I had the impression that Tifa knew Aerith would be there for Cloud's battle.
Ryu said:
Not necessarily. It's the question of visual illusion vs mental illusion. Being able to talk telepathically to one or two people is less powerful than having the ability to talk to hundreds. Same with projecting an image of yourself.
Contrariwise, if she's physically present- which, well, she's almost certainly not- then yes, obfuscating her presence from a number of people is easier than hiding from one or two. But that requires even further assumptions than the ability to speak telepathically with people, something established several times in universe as possible to do.
She didn't need to hide herself from people. She is already somewhere else, in the Lifestream. She can get out to talk to Cloud, and show herself to people, then return again. What's notable is that she can do it. That's all I'm saying.
Ryu said:
The problem isn't that 'to us' Aerith is 'just a friend,' but that taking her as something more is the very thing that needs to be substantiated. Aerith being something more than a friend to Cloud is the very thing the Clerith argument needs to establish, WANTS to establish. Making arguments based off of it is assuming the consequent.
We've provided quotes about Aerith's impact on Cloud, defending how it could be taken as romantic, but you only relate it to guilt. Nothing's changed.
Ryu said:
But it was being used in comparison to C/A, so you'd either be arguing the feelings of love on both sides are fillial, or are both romantic, without the comparison becoming largely meaningless.
And also made Zack able to appear to him as well. And then had the end of the moving emphasize both of them leaving for where they belong, even as Cloud realizes he belongs back with Tifa and the kids.
I'm rather certain MB meant idiom as you are discussing a common Japanese idiom for that which cannot be forgotten, and which I have noted can be used in decidedly unromantic scenarios.
Also which was used to refer to the promise at the water tower.
How else would she live on inside him, though? Please, do elucidate. Because if we're going to keep talking about this, I think you need to be clear what YOU think it means when it says 'lives on in his consciousness'
Sorry. I really didn't see this. I'd remember if I did, where was it?
Ryu said:
Here's the part of these two posts I really want to get at. Because the answer is actually no. It's not because of the highwind scene. Now, yes, the highwind scene will be part of the synthesis of evidence leading to this conclusion, but it is not a lynchpin. If we are capable of applying context to lead to a synthesis -And we must be to rationally conclude Woman is Aerith, rather than simply parroting that it is from someone else's conclusion- there is sufficient evidence to come to a conclusion on who Tifa is the beloved of. We assume only that the answer is somehow relevant to what we know, and that this woman is not some hitherto unknown dead ancient woman with a crush on Cloud.
Wait, the conclusion here is what? What were we talking about here, Ryu?
Ryu said:
With Tifa's 'beloved-er' if you will, we can assume that we are being told she is a beloved to explain her relation to an existing character. Of the existing characters, only three people have ever openly expressed an interest in Tifa that we know of- Cloud, Rude, and Johnny, all at different points.
We can assume that, being in the reunion files, the quote is relevant specifically to the Movie and not just the whole universe. Johnny's not in the film. He's out. That leaves Rude and Cloud. At no point to my recollection are Tifa and Rude referred to in association with each other, or even on the same screen at once (There may be one or two shots in the kid's bedroom, but these do not stand out to me). Cloud and Tifa, by contrast, are constantly associated with each other. They have a future together. They were made to compliment each other visually. They belong together according to the head writer, and he's known this since the first.
Unless the statement has no meaning to add to a deeper understanding of the narrative, it really only stands to reason that who she is the beloved of is someone she is close to, and associated with. That, more than anyone else, is Cloud.
I get mixed up really. First, most of you deny that Cloud loves Aerith. Then you say that he can't have a relationship with her.
The first is easy to understand enough. But if you say he can't have a relationship with her, then you have to say that he does love her.
Ryu said:
Alright. Propose an alternate message, then. Chop to it. support it with facts, narrative elements and themes. minimum three pages, single spaced, On my desk by monday.
I was going for the point that Barret didn't want Cloud to further give cold replies to Tifa.
How was that convo mushy?
Ryu said:
Once, I fired a rocket launcher round the entire length of a map and pegged a guy right as he respawned. What's to stop me from doing that again?
It's difficult to do. The circumstances have to be absolutely correct to do it.
And if Aerith can do it again, I must again ask why she does not appear a year into the future to give advice, if nothing else? That crisis directly affected her, again.
The thing is that for me, that's the only thing SE came up with. They wanted a film for FF7. For the story, they came up with those things. The rest just became fill-ins for it. But I do get your point.
Ryu said:
This does not follow.
Even if Aerith had other purposes, waiting for two years to appear is STILL at odds with THAT particular purpose for appearing.
What you're doing is assuming Aerith could appear before ACC but chose not to. This is 'able, but unwilling' and paints Areith in a bad light. It's also contradicted by COLW. 'Willing, but unable,' is far more realistic and fits with what we've been told.
Further, you're still 'multiplying entities unnecessarily.' We've been told she appears to those who are troubled to aid them, and that this is why she appears to Cloud. Anything else is an unnecessary assumption.
Yep. I was going to follow it up for whoever reacts to it.
I wasn't able to express myself clearly then here.
Aerith's purpose for appearing to Cloud is not just to ease his guilt. If it was, then she could have not help give Cloud a boost, but she did. It's like her purpose all in all was to help Cloud.
Like you said, in CoLW, Aerith is willing, but unable. And it happens in those two years. She couldn't do it then, but she was able to do it in ACC.
FHS claims that it was explained in CoLW. But you said pages ago that changes can't happen in between CoLW and ACC which would enable Aerith to do so. Unless my memory has failed me.
So what's the deal? What enabled Aerith?
Ryu said:
Ah, but this is where you're wrong. They're BOTH in his memory. And his heart. Let me explain.
In point of fact, the exact same phrase was used in Japanese. This phrase means both carved in the heart and carved in the mind because the word used in the phrase means BOTH heart and mind, using heart in the classic sense of 'seat of thought, emotions, and memory'
Japanese has a similar issue with the word for soul being co-opted as the word for DNA. That created some wonky-ass translations, let me tell you. Or wonky ass-translations, for the XKCD fans.
Hey CR, you've had at least three people respond to this, maybe a couple more even (I did not count) but for the sake of participation, here's my two cents:
And it's excruciating because my post becomes longer than it needs to be. Your post is about what I said which, as you have said, people have responded to me for it. So please refer to my response to Ryu. If there was something unanswered, point it out for me to make a reply to in my next post.
Ryu said:
And as it has been confirmed many times that mutual feelings WERE shared in the canon narrative, the HA scene must therefore be canon. Your own words here are supporting the position you wish to disprove.
I am not even trying to disprove anything really. I was just saying what happened in the LA version. That's just it.
GLD said:
I'm confused, what are we even arguing here? By the end of FFVII, Cloud has indeed found that he needs his OWN forgiveness rather than that of Aerith with regards to her death. He has moved on from his lingering feelings of shame and guilt there. His feelings for Zack as well, it would appear. How is this romantic? At all?
Now, I don't discount her making an exception and remaining an individual for a time longer. After all, if Sephiroth refuses to play by the rules and diffuse she just might be needed again. But, it seems likely that she IS gone, considering the Omega incident in DoC DID happen and Aerith was nowhere to be found.
It didn't concern Sephy. If Sephy exists, so does Aerith.
And, it was Lucrecia's turn to shine.
GLD said:
People get so worked up about the word "heart" in situations like these. In a great many cultures, the heart is seen as the emotional center of a human being. As in ALL emotions are centered on the heart. Its not just a romantic thing, guilt, joy, regret, anger, etc ALL reside within the heart. That'd make for one hell of a labyrinth in a well adjusted person, let alone someone with all the issues Cloud has accrued over his life.
And I was being sarcastic. I didn't point it out for argument's sake really. It was for pure fun.
GLD said:
Whether they saw her or not, you have to admit that she did communicate, rather directly, with an absolute shitload of people during the course of the film. Note that only one of them is Cloud. Many of them, she's probably never met before. Moogle Girl, for instance, is the one who explains to Cloud that Aerith said he would be at the church. That plus Kadaj's death scene pokes a pretty decent hole in the "Cloud and Aerith's special bond allows her to appear to him!" argument.
The keyword is appear. It's just that Nomura singled out Cloud when he talked about why Aerith was able to appear to Cloud, the person who Tifa herself thought had a special bond.
GLD said:
Tis good to see you thinking your points through, but don't hurt yourself over it The LTD has caused enough headaches over the years, it needs no more victims.
This is not the first time. I was 15/16-ish when I first joined the LTD. It's just that I haven't had this kind of headache for two years.
GLD said:
That... doesn't make a lot of sense to me really. You may not be saying that it is meaningless, but you do seem to be downplaying the importance of anyone but Cloud sensing/communicating with Aerith. I suppose it makes her appearances before him less special if so many others have some contact, however different it may be?
The problem is that Aerith didn't contact them. They connected droplets of water to her.
GLD said:
Because no matter how long it goes on, Cloud and Tifa's love is heavily supported within the game, the guidebooks, the film, the creator interviews. Clerith just doesn't have the same amount of juice.
I read what you were responding to and I still don't know what you're trying to say. Sorry if I'm just dense, or if this is a joke, but I highly doubt anyone here wants it said that we can ignore and misinterpret things. Even as Anastar continues to do just that, I am positive she wouldn't say so.
Anastar and I have been trying, so have aerbear and LL. The results have been the same.
GLD said:
That and a multitude of other things that have all long since been laid on the table. As for SE flat out saying "This right here? This is canon" when do they EVER do that? When does anyone do that?
They easily managed to declare which date is default. Why not the canon? Being default is as close to being canon can get.
GLD said:
I've seen some statements such as this from DC comics in the past, maybe even some from Marvel, but the majority of folks do not make such blatant statements unless I am missing something. It's been said before, and bears saying again: We do not need to be spoon-fed every little bit of information to come to the right conclusion.
If people can do it at times, why not for just one time? SE did say that everything is there and nothing was left hanging. But it seems, what they had left brought out different views. And not just one conclusion.
GLD said:
Except she hasn't done so since. And very likely cannot, as per the explanations provided to you about how returning to the Planet actually works. Case in point, DoC was all about the fate of the world being in jeopardy once again. Where was Aerith? Why wasn't she helping with that?
A one time strike is not enough reason to do so. I have a high tolerance level.
GLD said:
Sometimes they can be, and sometimes they need more context. Or a point that was already made may bear repeating in full. No sense harping on how the person chose to answer so long as it was an honest and complete answer with no twisting or partial ignoring, right?
It's just that my question is answered with a yes or no.
GLD said:
Alright then, I don't wanna see any speculation from you on things that aren't factually stated either then. Like Aerith being able to appear to Cloud (or anyone else) post-ACC, for example. Hold yourself to the same standards you demand of those with whom you debate.
Riiight.
Like I said, I've no specific standards which I am aware of. I debate as how others debate with me.
GLD said:
See above concerning people forgetting that "heart" is the seat of all human emotions, not just love. Also, I know you're better than to try and tear down Tifa by claiming she is ONLY etched in his memory, and not his heart at all. I refuse to believe that is what you meant. So while others have graciously provided an explanation of how that whole thing works, please do tell me what you were trying to say here?
Thank you for not jumping to that conclusion.
I was talking about how things can easily be stated to be in memory, while others in the heart. But yes, the heart is the seat of all emotions.
We are arguing semantics now. Why are people trying to look at the way the sentence is structured and not what the sentence is actually meaning. This isn't the Constitution or anything, it's a line about the ltd.
Woah, calm down. I was just saying I agree with one part, and disagree with another part. Not necessarily aimed at you. But if you can't tell what I'm aiming at you or not just know this - I DO read your posts. XD I'll try to make it more clear when I'm showing my view on something I guess.
Uhm, I was calm... If I wasn't, I'd go all caps with it. LOL.
It's just I don't like replies to my post that contains things I never actually saim like the picnic.
Oh. I didn't see that in the ending when I watched on YT. And I already left the country when my brother was halfway the game so I don't know which implications that would be.
I can't watch it. It keeps saying an error occurred. Must be my broadband. You have a script pr something?
Filia said:
I disagree... I think you're really underestimating the power of friendship and the impact it has on people. I mean, just look at Cloud and Zack for example. Friendships can wound you deeply... where it counts most - your heart. I don't think it's too much for a friend. If you saw your friend die in the way Aerith did, wouldn't you be a bit tramautized too?
Oh I am not underestimating it. Like I said before, comparing how Cloud is affected with Zack's death to Aerith, it's not similar, one is definitely above the other.
Quex said:
....
I'm sorry but you really should play the game or at least watch a walkthrough. Cloud's first doing a mission for AVALANCHE when you start and then you find out that Tifa found him by the train station a while back
And I worded it badly. Love can continue yes. My point is that relationship doesn't necessitate physical presence. They already have one actually. A spiritual bond if you will.
We don't know how in the world she got that impression like you said, thus it doesn't make sense why the girl said that.
And yes, they didn't seem like childhood friends. I have a childhood friend, many actually. And I don't act the way Cloud did, as I know, to them.
Why is it so important for you to make it sound negative?
Yep, and they didn't have time for Tifa to talk about her feelings and make the scene mushy.
Eileen said:
Where does it say that she can visit Cloud again? It would ruin the fact that you know... she actually died? I think ACC did that pretty well already though. Is she just going to drop by and say hi?
Nothing states that she can or can't. ACC showed she can visit again, which she can do again given the circumstances as many of you say. She already had.
Eileen said:
She visited because she was needed. Why would she visit again? She's dead and belongs in the Lifestream.
This is addressed in the first lines of CoLW. It says that she, being an Ancient, could decide when to return to the planet, and she felt it was too soon. The Cetra, being Ancients and in tune with the planet, apparently have the ability to maintain their individuality when they die. Rather neato ability, tbh.
That didn't answer why question. I would assume that SE didn't publish the game manual. That's why the information is wrong.
If SE did publish it though, complain about the wrong info with them. As much as the LTD concerns, Aerith's profile describes how Cloud would never forget her, whereas Tifa is a childhood friend (If I remember it correctly).
FHS said:
The HA version is canon. The 'revealing' conversation doesn't happen in the LA version, but they're still snuggled come morning... that's all I'm saying.
I am not even addressing or contesting the HA version. Why the need to talk about it?
FHS said:
No. He loves Tifa--from age 9. Cloud's emotions are constant. You don't get the option for him to ever declare affection for Aerith. Ever. And, seriously, the shit that raises the affection levels is retarded and not meant to be taken to the extreme ridiculous analysis that goes on here. It's a side-game mechanic that is utterly useless and completely irrelevant, because the plot takes over and the love interest is truly not something player controlled. Hello, Red Herring.
Right. So it would be okay to diss other parts of the game which can be considered retarded.
Red Herring?
FHS said:
You are genuinely irritating me with the 'your side' shit. Let me be very clear that just because someone thinks Cloti is canon doesn't make them anti-Clerith. I think Clerith is a sweet fanon. There is no sides. There is only the narrative and the truth.
We have the Clerith side and the Cloti side presenting their own arguments. In a debate, there are always two sides presenting each of their arguments, getting it analyzed and criticized.
Cloud was useless. He was so wrapped up in his guilt and feeling inadequate he was willing to let the Turks rescue his kids. She needed him to let go of his guilt and be ABLE to fight. There's nothing in the movie at all implying she was there for anything romantic. "I want to be forgiven... More than anything." Not "I want to see you again." Not :"I want to be with you again." Not even "I miss you, Aerith." All Cloud seeks is redemption.
Not really, no. You've yet to provide one quote where Cloud is declarative in his emotions for Aerith. You have spent a ton of time trying to disprove Cloti, which is NOT the same. Tearing down one 'ship does not float the other.
Which says that she can return when she wants. She only felt it wasn't the right time.
FHS said:
Already addressed that. His guilt made him useless, she needed him to fight. So, yes, his guilt was motivation. And I think she loved him, so of course she wants to help him. That's what friends do.
Thank you. You are too.
Like I said, I have fun when I debate. It takes the boredom out of being in the house and studying most of the time.
It's just tiring to repeat things over and over. Right?
And I worded it badly. Love can continue yes. My point is that relationship doesn't necessitate physical presence. They already have one actually. A spiritual bond if you will.
I agree, but...
His mind was pretty damaged at that time. When he got all his memories back he acted like a childhood friend, and more than that in my opinion.
If it sounded negative, that was not my intention. That's your interpretation.
Nothing states that she can or can't. ACC showed she can visit again, which she can do again given the circumstances as many of you say. She already had.
"Cloud also carries his own undying feelings for Aerith", are you referring to this?
Cloud and the rest all felt sorry about Aerith's death. They all carries their own feelings for her.
Really? But Cloud and Aerith's case is different. They never had any deep and romantic moments together. Their time together was too short! When in the game did their relationship develope into something really romantic?
I got this from Quex in PM today, and I believe it was something I said to you:
Okay, sorry. That's not the original translation I got. However, I don't see that it changes my point.
Barret lifted his artificial right arm up that had a machine gun attached to it. He kept walking without looking back. It was the back of a figure who had no other way to live than to fight. I wonder just what kind of life he will find. I prayed that he would be able to stay far away from war. Not just take. I prayed he would be able to prove that he could give, too.
“I’ll be a nice child of this family!” Marlene said. Hearing those words, Cloud and Tifa looked at each other. A child of this family? “I’ll take care of Cloud and Tifa!” Barret turned round and shouted, “Do your best!” His voice was a little shaky. “Unite the family’s strength and keep at it!”
Even if it's Marlene saying it, why would she call herself part of a family that Barret didn't belong to?Marlene and Barret have been family for years - I doubt that she would suddenly just leave him out of it.
She didn't leave him out. He removed himself from the equation. That is the point. Barret has left Marlene in Cloud and Tifa's permanent custody as far as the compilation is concerned.
Also why would Cloud and Tifa look at each other at "A child of this family"?
And why would the follow up be this if we were not witnessing the creation of the 7th Heaven family?
-After Cloud thanked Marlene’s innocent offer with his serious face, he looked at Tifa. Tifa nodded a little. Would there be various problems arising after this? However, Tifa decided that she would stop worrying about the relationship between the two of them.
The dynamic has clearly shifted and this worries both Cloud and Tifa. They need to reassure each other. But in very few words on their parts Cloud and Tifa have just declared to each other that they will take on the responsibility of raising Marlene.
Thus the 7th Heaven family is born. With all parties involved knowing full well what is going on.
Is it really impossible to spend time with the dead, or get a visit? I didn't get that impression because of ACC.
But oh well, I'll get into reading the whole of CoLW this break anyway.
I was ready to respond to much you said, but seeing you haven't read CoLW yet, I'll wait.
One thing, though: Aerith didn't visit, because she wasn't supposed to. She's dead. The dead meeting the living is unnatural even in the FFVII universe, because that would mean the the circle is broken. The Lifestream is the flow of life and death in FFVII, it brings life and it takes it back when it's time to give it again later somewhere else. Seriously, go check the game. It's in the Cosmo Canyon part.
Yes, the Cetra can hold their individualism, but they will eventually fade away, too. CoLW says that the Cetra can CHOOSE when to disappear and continue with the natural normal circle of life and death. Not that they don't fade at all.
But why is the guilt so much for Cloud is Aerith wasn't that important to him?
I know that friends are important, but not as important as someone you love.
Zack is Cloud's friend, but Cloud can visit his grave just fine. With Aerith, no, he can't bring himself to go there without having his emotions stir.
The bold part implies that Cloud's emotions didn't stir when he visited Zack's grave in ACC, which, let me tell you is wrong. Helluva wrong.
But, yes, there is a slight difference between Zack's and Aerith's deaths for Cloud. And no, it's not necessarily because of any hidden romantic feelings he may or may not had for Aerith:
Zack.
Cloud was half-catatonic when it happened. He had no weapon. He could barely stand on his two feet. In the OG, he reached him when Zack was already dead and gone, after having his mind just a little cleared up. In CC they even exchanged some words. Regardless of the details, after that, his mind broke and took on Zack's persona.
Aerith.
Cloud was one foot away from her. He had the Buster sword. He had a duty to protect her, because he was her bodyguard. He was also obsessed with protecting people because of his promise to Tifa (that point goes for Zack, too). He had just snapped out of Sephiroth's control and was looking Aerith with a clear mind, standing over there.
Note: Cloud's obsession with protecting people is mentioned in his profile in the Compilation Ultimania:
Compilation Check
A Promise to Tifa, Etched in his Memory.
When Cloud left the village dreaming of being a SOLDIER, he swore to Tifa that he would come running to her rescue if she was in trouble. While it was Tifa who strong-armed him into making the promise, it seems that the idea that he must keep this vow was forever in Cloud's mind. In BC he is obsessive about protecting people, and if he runs out of strength part way though he will mention the "promise".
Going further in my point, what's the difference between the two deaths that I mentioned? I'll spell it out:
The difference is that Cloud, in Aerith's case, was NOT handicapped as he was in Zack's. He was there, perfectly capable of standing on his two feet and lifting his weapon. And yet, Aerith fell. It's double the failure than with Zack, when he was catatonic and could only crawl to the scene.
This is why in ACC, Cloud says to Zack's grave "I promised to live for both of us. Back there, I promised not to forget." and not "But, I let you die." as he says to Aerith. He failed Zack in the sense that 1. yes, did view his death and yes, he did feel responsible, because that's who Cloud is 2. he couldn't keep his promise to Zack to live the life for both of them, because he was dying of Geostigma at that time.
Cloud didn't let Zack die. But he did let Aerith die.
And also, sorry for making this personal, but your belittling the grief over a good friend, makes me uncomfortable. Not to mention disturbed.
And that's why I say she's that powerful to be able to contact all those people at the same time. The phones go off nearly all at the same time. And it's still not comparable to her appearing to Cloud, right when he needed it.
Yeah, I'll wait for you to read CoLW to clear this up. It actually says why Aerith decided to appear before Cloud during this time ONLY and for what purpose EXACTLY.
She didn't need to hide herself from people. She is already somewhere else, in the Lifestream. She can get out to talk to Cloud, and show herself to people, then return again. What's notable is that she can do it. That's all I'm saying.
That's visible for basically a single frame. Very easy to miss. I think I comment on it during the commentary track too.
This next one is
Unfortunately, this one's not quite as easy to see, since I had to take these with a camera rather a screengrabber. Hopefully, the figure itself can be seen. This is during Kadaj's death sequence, after her voice first chimes in.
If the second is insufficient, I can try and fix the capture device and take another shot.
I was wondering how did you see Aerith in Kadaj's eye and I went to watch the scene myself in 720p. Yup, she's there. Ichy-bichy small, but there nonetheless. A high-res gif would show it in a far better way than a stationary screenshot, though.
Felt what? That she died too young? That feeling a disturbance in the force lifestream keeps her from leaving? There is no mention of Cloud in CoLW until there is trouble. She isn't missing him, she isn't 'staying' for him. Nope. But again, I'll wait until you read it. Also, since you have a psp (you played CC after all) you can get the OG on the psp to play, just for reference. You don't need a PSone.
That didn't answer why question. I would assume that SE didn't publish the game manual. That's why the information is wrong.
If SE did publish it though, complain about the wrong info with them. As much as the LTD concerns, Aerith's profile describes how Cloud would never forget her, whereas Tifa is a childhood friend (If I remember it correctly).
We have the Clerith side and the Cloti side presenting their own arguments. In a debate, there are always two sides presenting each of their arguments, getting it analyzed and criticized.
A minimum of two sides, usually. But believing Cloti is canon doesn't make you a Cloti. **looks around for Zee**. There are Cleriths that accept the fact that Cloud and Tifa are the canon couple, believe it or not.
I didn't say Cloud loved Aerith, I said Aerith loves Cloud. She does. No arguement from me on that. And no, he doesn't love her. Doesn't mean he doesn't care about her.
It's just tiring to repeat things over and over. Right?
It really is. Having said that, I'll wait until you get a chance to read CoLw and Case of Tifa. Both really help in the characters and relationship dynamics.
I'm afraid I don't know about AC. I haven't seen this movie in years. O.o The low quality of it wouldn't help, anyway. Even with the 720p analysis, I had to squint a little.
I'm afraid I don't know about AC. I haven't seen this movie in years. O.o The low quality of it wouldn't help, anyway. Even with the 720p analysis, I had to squint a little.
Claim: The Low Version of the Highwind Scene lacks emotion.
No. It was said to be apathetic and short, not that it lacks emotion.
Claim: LL should say what she personally thinks about the reason of Cloud's sorrow.
Okay, then first, before I say something, read carefully:
* This is my opinion and I wish for no insult or offense or someone saying "oh this is crap and bullshit and you are totally nuts for thinking this"
* This is my opinion and my own interpretation of the things that happened. I have no wish of claiming this is true or hinted.
* There shall be no debate if this is in context with your own view of FFVII.
[I view Cloud's affection in FFVII as romantic. I think his actions towards her show that he has developed romantic affection towards her and that he cherishes her company in a romantic way. I think he feels sorrow because she isn't at his side anymore and that he could have protected her if he hadn't been controlled by Sephiroth. I believe that Cloud doesn't feel this sorrow in the end of AC anymore because he has seen Aerith again and knows that she is never really leaving him even if she is dead.
I also believe that he has shown a certain affection towards Tifa that can be viewed as romantic some times though it seems to be rather sparse. I believe he feels a strong platonic love towards her and that he maybe even feels a little romantic affection towards her.]
So. This is my honest opinion and I do not wish to be insulted because of this. I do not claim this to be canon or default or that it happened or something like that, this is my own interpretation of the game and is neither true nor false.
It's just a viewpoint without evidence to be proven or disproven.
Claim: It was said that sharing romantic feelings under the Highwind happened for sure.
No. There was always a mention that the scene was optional.
Claim: The High Affection Scene is one of the four most-important scenes in the game.
So, wait. I'd like to get that in the right way.
You are saying that the High Affection scene is more important than the ending because one single page says so. However, this page didn't even include Aerith's death, a very important scene that strongly affects the storyline. So this page lacks her death, a thing that questions the rightfulness of this page.
Second, 'Dismantled' was questioned to be un-canon just because it was too old. However, other installments of FFVII were also questioned by fans to be un-canon because they contradict the storyline.
Then why wasn't this page questioned if it lacks certain important scenes?
Claim: Celes wearing heavier armor as Locke is making her a physical fighter.
No. She remains an all-around fighter. The fact that she can learn magic without magicites does actually suggest using her for magic spells.
Claim: Beatrix, Penelo, Freiya, and Fran are no mages.
However, Beatrix, Penelo, and Fran have high magical stats. Freiya is an exception, indeed, but it remains unknown if Sir Fratley is maybe a magical fighter, so this would balance the pattern out.
With "mage", I didn't mean the jobclass "mage" but having high magical stats. Mage was shorter than always saying "woman-with-high-magical-stats".
Claim: It's irrelevant to be a mage to find love.
Indeed. However, there seems to be a pattern.
Claim: LL has still to provide sources for two of her quotes.
About the first one (saying that there was a quote stating that Sephiroth and Aerith are the narrators of CoL): no, I think there was no quote saying that. Sadsadsad.
About the second one (a statement saying that Tifa just tries to act bright): I'm still searching, and I am darn sure this was true.
Claim: LLs debate about the mage thing is pointless.
True. I didn't intend to debate about it that hugely since I know:
* it's most likely untrue
* there is nothing proving it
* it's quite porous
Claim: Cloud's secret tender with is to be with Tifa.
First, it was his with to be noticed by her. He had a crush as a child, but there was no mentioning of him "wanting to be with Tifa". He wanted to be noticed by the village and especially by her.
Second, you seem to ignore that these feelings were back in the past. This doesn't tell us anything about Cloud's present feelings.
Claim: There are no feelings seen to be shared in the Low Version.
There are also no feelings necessarily seen to be shared in the High Version.
SE says that feelings are shared and that these feelings are of mutual romance in the High Version. Why saying that these feelings are only of love in the High Version if they only shared feelings in the High Version? This doesn't make sense.
"They only share feelings in the High Version. (...) If the High Version ocurred, the feelings will be of mutual love."
So mutual feelings are shared in both versions. What feelings are shared is to be left unknown for the player's interpretation.
Claim: The movie doesn't say Cloud was in SOLDIER.
True, only Rufus mentions that - who we already saw having to clue about that.
Claim: Rufus says that Cloud claimed to be a SOLDIER. This differs from Rufus saying Cloud was in SOLDIER. I said 'in some versions of AC'. In some translated versions, like the French and the German one, though the subtitles correct that.
Claim: LL, CR and other Cleriths only want to attack the "canonity" of the High Affection Scene and fail to provide sources for their own beliefs.
So, this will be said directly to you, dear GymLeaderDevil:
The High Affection Scene has never been "proven" to be canon or default - you just wanted it to be so. While debating over them, it becomes clear that the "evidence" is quite porous and that the quotes are highly equivocal.
Our evidence for saying that there is no canon couple was supported by:
* the lack of any quote proving a romantic couple as canon
* Nomura saying he doesn't care who loves whom, that he doesn't have any clue about it, and that he wants to leave that open for interpretation
This supports the idea of the non-existence of one or more canon couples involving the present Cloud since there is no source saying otherwise.
Your claim that I should prove my preference canon doesn't make sense. I said that I prefer Clerith and that I enjoy my "ship". I do not claim it to be true or canon or default. I could also have said I prefer CloudxRinoa or that I don't like any ship that involves Cloud or Zacks or Tifa or Aerith. So are you saying I should provide sources and supporting quotes for CloudxRinoa?
...You're kidding, right?
Claim: There is no quote saying anything about Cloud and Aerith being involved romantically.
True. The only mention of something "romantic" would be the date scene that was listed on the Love-Page, making the Aerith date romantic.
Claim: Cloud's forgiveness comes from himself instead of Aerith.
While I agree that he had to forgive himself in the end, there was also a quote saying: "The incredible guilt Cloud feels because of what happened to Aerith can only be lifted by forgiveness from Aerith herself." ~Kazushige Nojima; pg. 9, Reunion Files
Claim: Cloud cannot love Aerith since he didn't know her enough.
Supported by what? So there are Squall and Rinoa travelling a few weeks with each other, and they can't fall in love with each other?
I would also like to ask one question.
Tifa asks Cloud in the High Version if he thinks the stars can hear how hard they fight for them. Ähm, however, they did never fight for the stars. They fought for the planet. I've heard that 'hoshi' can equally mean 'planet/earth' and 'star', so maybe this is a translation error?
The sentence would make far more sense if it would say 'planet' rather than 'stars'.
"Do you think the planet can hear us? Do you think he knows how hard we're fighting for him?"
the......definition of apathetic is pretty much showing no emotion.........
Claim: Cloud's secret tender with is to be with Tifa.
First, it was his with to be noticed by her. He had a crush as a child, but there was no mentioning of him "wanting to be with Tifa". He wanted to be noticed by the village and especially by her.
Second, you seem to ignore that these feelings were back in the past. This doesn't tell us anything about Cloud's present feelings.
hdu show us things that don't even matter or apply anymore Square. you should have had a supplementary cloud standing by and being like 'well yeah, past me wanted to be noticed by you and thinks that i'd be happy if you told me so in the future that you cared about me, but clearly he doesn't know jack shit.'
Claim: Cloud cannot love Aerith since he didn't know her enough.
Supported by what? So there are Squall and Rinoa travelling a few weeks with each other, and they can't fall in love with each other?
I haven't played FF8. Did their relationship develope the same way Cloud and Aerith's did?
This is a question directed to all C/A supporters.
Where in FF7 did Cloud and Aerith show their love for each other?
And another thing. Even in the Low HW-Scene, Cloud and Tifa are still embarrassed of something the next day. What could it be if they didn't share their mutual feelings? Barret, Cid and Red heard something that C&T didn't want them to hear.
The scene is optional. No one is arguing that it's not. However, optional or not, it is the narrative canon. See Tidus's resurrection and Shadow's death arguments for reference.
Claim: It's irrelevant to be a mage to find love.
Indeed. However, there seems to be a pattern.
Claim: Cloud's secret tender with is to be with Tifa.
First, it was his with to be noticed by her. He had a crush as a child, but there was no mentioning of him "wanting to be with Tifa".
Unless you can provide a quote stating that he wanted the Village approval. The only time he comes close to this is when he gets angry at himself for his inability to save Tifa on Mt. Nibel and he wants to get strong like Sephiroth.
Second, you seem to ignore that these feelings were back in the past. This doesn't tell us anything about Cloud's present feelings.
Ahahahahahaha. **wipes eyes** Oh, wait... you're serious? Do me a favor, then, and provide a quote saying Cloud has romantic interest in Aerith. Past or present will do just fine thanks.
Claim: There are no feelings seen to be shared in the Low Version.
There are also no feelings necessarily seen to be shared in the High Version.
SE says that feelings are shared and that these feelings are of mutual romance in the High Version. Why saying that these feelings are only of love in the High Version if they only shared feelings in the High Version? This doesn't make sense.
"They only share feelings in the High Version. (...) If the High Version ocurred, the feelings will be of mutual love."
So mutual feelings are shared in both versions. What feelings are shared is to be left unknown for the player's interpretation.
Nomura doesn't care. (aside from being a known troll and deflector) Why would he? He's NOT the writer, when Nojima says this shit let me know. Also, he NEVER says the LTD is open to interpretation. Not ever.
Claim: There is no quote saying anything about Cloud and Aerith being involved romantically.
True. The only mention of something "romantic" would be the date scene that was listed on the Love-Page, making the Aerith date romantic.
Claim: Beatrix, Penelo, Freiya, and Fran are no mages.
However, Beatrix, Penelo, and Fran have high magical stats. Freiya is an exception, indeed, but it remains unknown if Sir Fratley is maybe a magical fighter, so this would balance the pattern out.
With "mage", I didn't mean the jobclass "mage" but having high magical stats. Mage was shorter than always saying "woman-with-high-magical-stats".
i mean, is the argument that romantic relationships in ff always have one mage/one fighter? is raine a secret mage? is shera a secret mage? or does this only count for pcs?
Claim: The conversation between Cloud and Tifa being "apathetic" means it contains no emotion.
First, it was said that apathetic can mean "not showing much or no emotion".
Second, it was also defined as "not showing much or no interest in something".
Also, if you call someone "apathetic", then he feels apathy; therefore, apathy is an emotion itself. Besides, it was said the conversation ends apathetic - not that Cloud is apathetic.
Claim: Cloud and Tifa are embarrassed of something in both scenes.
Wrong. Tifa is the one embarrassed, not Cloud. In both scenes.
Tifa is fairly easy to embarrass, and while it remains uncertain what did embarrass her, the reason hasn't to be related to anything sexual.
What would embarrass her? Someone seeing her cry, someone seeing her opening up herself and being honest? Maybe that her team members know now that she loves Cloud in a romantic way?
One can't be sure.
Question: Did Squalls and Rinoas relationship develop in a similar way?
Well, what do you think?
There are similarities, there are also differences.
Can one really say that? After all, Squalls and Rinoas love was confirmed by their kiss/their hug/quotes/the love page.
Rinoa and Aerith are quite similar, and Squall and Cloud are also quite similar. Squall and Cloud are mercenaries, Rinoa and Aerith both special women who have unique powers.
Maybe there is even more.
Claim: Though the High Affection Scene is optional, it's still canon.
Hell, then let me rephrase:
"No version of the Highwind Scene is said to be canon or default."
Claim: Cloud's "tender wish" and his wish to be in her room is connected with each other.
So Cloud's "tender" wish is to be in Tifa's bedroom?
Didn't he say before that it was his wish to be noticed by her? Also, being in her bedroom - is this somehow connected to the statement that his wish was to be with her?
Claim: Cloud did only want to be noticed by Tifa, not from the village.
Mostly, he wanted attention from Tifa, but he also wished for her friends to let him play with them and to invite him in. And to do that, they have to notice him.
Claim: LL should provide a quote stating that the present Cloud has romantic feelings for Aerith.
It doesn't seem you're good at reading someone's posts?
Why should I provide you a quote saying that Cloud has romantic feelings for Aerith if my belief is that there is no canon couple to be decided?
Claim: The mage-argument is bullshit.
Yes, it is.
It's funny that I said one little thing about a crack theory unproven and porous and suddenly everyone wants to debate about it even if I said it myself.
Claim: The conversation between Cloud and Tifa being "apathetic" means it contains no emotion.
First, it was said that apathetic can mean "not showing much or no emotion".
Second, it was also defined as "not showing much or no interest in something".
Also, if you call someone "apathetic", then he feels apathy; therefore, apathy is an emotion itself. Besides, it was said the conversation ends apathetic - not that Cloud is apathetic.
If someone is apathetic they aren't feeling anything. They sure as shit aren't feeling apathy as apathy itself is the LACK of feeling. FFS, am I really having to spell this out?
Claim: Cloud and Tifa are embarrassed of something in both scenes.
Wrong. Tifa is the one embarrassed, not Cloud. In both scenes. Tifa is fairly easy to embarrass
What would embarrass her? Someone seeing her cry, someone seeing her opening up herself and being honest? Maybe that her team members know now that she loves Cloud in a romantic way?
Claim: Though the High Affection Scene is optional, it's still canon.
Hell, then let me rephrase:
"No version of the Highwind Scene is said to be canon or default."
Claim: Cloud did only want to be noticed by Tifa, not from the village.
Mostly, he wanted attention from Tifa, but he also wished for her friends to let him play with them and to invite him in. And to do that, they have to notice him.
He thinks her friends are stupid. He says so. He doesn't give a shit if they notice him, he wants let into their group to be near her. This is not hard. Cloud's kind of an obsessive dick about it, actually.
Claim: LL should provide a quote stating that the present Cloud has romantic feelings for Aerith.
It doesn't seem you're good at reading someone's posts?
I read just fucking fine, thanks. I also have awesome comprehension skills that prevent me from needing to be spoon-fed the narrative, but hey, not everyone can get both.
Why should I provide you a quote saying that Cloud has romantic feelings for Aerith if my belief is that there is no canon couple to be decided?
Well, for one, to support your claim that there IS more than one love interest. That would be a fucking start. I'm not asking for irrefutable proof that Clerith is canon, I am asking for ONE quote that provides some merit to the assumption that they could be romantic--at all. Something even in the same ballpark with the umpteen Cloti quotes in this very thread.
Cloud turns around from the group and rubs his neck in both scenes.
It looked like they both were embarrassed to me.
Tifa is fairly easy to embarrass, and while it remains uncertain what did embarrass her, the reason hasn't to be related to anything sexual.
What would embarrass her? Someone seeing her cry, someone seeing her opening up herself and being honest? Maybe that her team members know now that she loves Cloud in a romantic way?
One can't be sure.
The High HW-Scene is extremely related to something sexual. SE even had in mind to make Cloud and Tifa walk out of the Chocobo stable, but it was "too risque." So they toned it down. With Tifa's line "Words aren't the only way to tell people what you're thinking", and a black fade out, perhaps? (I'm sure you've heard this a thousand times before already.)
But right now I'm talking about the Low one.
If it was one sided, as you made it look like, then why did Cid talk about them both?
Cid: "Hey Red XIII. If you butt in now, you'll never know what they'll say later......"
Tifa: ".....Were you listening/watching?"
And they both seemed happy afterwards.
Question: Did Squalls and Rinoas relationship develop in a similar way?
Well, what do you think?
There are similarities, there are also differences.
Can one really say that? After all, Squalls and Rinoas love was confirmed by their kiss/their hug/quotes/the love page.
Aaaand Cloud and Aerith never confirmed their love for each other. But Cloud and Tifa did, and weren't they also a part of that "love page"?
Rinoa and Aerith are quite similar, and Squall and Cloud are also quite similar. Squall and Cloud are mercenaries, Rinoa and Aerith both special women who have unique powers.
I've already given you some before. If I give you more, you'd only react the same to it. Anastar's post of her essay is evidence enough. I can't say anything else to add on it.
I was talking about FHS's quote. That Aerith went to Cloud because she thought Cloud could help.
Eileen said:
"Cloud also carries his own undying feelings for Aerith", are you referring to this?
Cloud and the rest all felt sorry about Aerith's death. They all carries their own feelings for her.
First, Aerith's comrades were mentioned, as in general, to carry their own feelings and *loves* for her. Then it goes to pick out Cloud, and say that he has his own undying feelings for Aerith.
Really? But Cloud and Aerith's case is different. They never had any deep and romantic moments together. Their time together was too short! When in the game did their relationship develope into something really romantic?
One thing, though: Aerith didn't visit, because she wasn't supposed to. She's dead. The dead meeting the living is unnatural even in the FFVII universe, because that would mean the the circle is broken. The Lifestream is the flow of life and death in FFVII, it brings life and it takes it back when it's time to give it again later somewhere else. Seriously, go check the game. It's in the Cosmo Canyon part.
But she was there in ACC. What do you call her being there then, if not "visiting"?
Seras said:
Yes, the Cetra can hold their individualism, but they will eventually fade away, too. CoLW says that the Cetra can CHOOSE when to disappear and continue with the natural normal circle of life and death. Not that they don't fade at all.
Oh, I didn't mean that. Yes, his emotions stir when he visits Zack's grave. But it doesn't stop him from visiting it.
Seras said:
But, yes, there is a slight difference between Zack's and Aerith's deaths for Cloud. And no, it's not necessarily because of any hidden romantic feelings he may or may not had for Aerith:
Zack.
Cloud was half-catatonic when it happened. He had no weapon. He could barely stand on his two feet. In the OG, he reached him when Zack was already dead and gone, after having his mind just a little cleared up. In CC they even exchanged some words. Regardless of the details, after that, his mind broke and took on Zack's persona.
Aerith.
Cloud was one foot away from her. He had the Buster sword. He had a duty to protect her, because he was her bodyguard. He was also obsessed with protecting people because of his promise to Tifa (that point goes for Zack, too). He had just snapped out of Sephiroth's control and was looking Aerith with a clear mind, standing over there.
Going further in my point, what's the difference between the two deaths that I mentioned? I'll spell it out:
The difference is that Cloud, in Aerith's case, was NOT handicapped as he was in Zack's. He was there, perfectly capable of standing on his two feet and lifting his weapon. And yet, Aerith fell. It's double the failure than with Zack, when he was catatonic and could only crawl to the scene.
This is why in ACC, Cloud says to Zack's grave "I promised to live for both of us. Back there, I promised not to forget." and not "But, I let you die." as he says to Aerith. He failed Zack in the sense that 1. yes, did view his death and yes, he did feel responsible, because that's who Cloud is 2. he couldn't keep his promise to Zack to live the life for both of them, because he was dying of Geostigma at that time.
Cloud didn't let Zack die. But he did let Aerith die.
Oh, but I am not. You only think I am because you think Aerith and Cloud are just friends for Cloud. But we believe that Cloud and Aerith loved each other, therefore Cloud's grief over Aerith's death causes him more pain compared to Zack's.
Seras said:
Yeah, I'll wait for you to read CoLW to clear this up. It actually says why Aerith decided to appear before Cloud during this time ONLY and for what purpose EXACTLY.
Felt what? That she died too young? That feeling a disturbance in the force lifestream keeps her from leaving? There is no mention of Cloud in CoLW until there is trouble. She isn't missing him, she isn't 'staying' for him. Nope. But again, I'll wait until you read it.
It's my brother's game, and his PSP. I watched as he played. I played some parts too, but I never managed to win since my hands aren't fast enough.
We're not living in the same country anymore so I can't really play with a PSP now.
FHS said:
Pretty sure it was Brady'sGames... they usually do the strategy guides.
A minimum of two sides, usually. But believing Cloti is canon doesn't make you a Cloti. **looks around for Zee**. There are Cleriths that accept the fact that Cloud and Tifa are the canon couple, believe it or not.
Ah, here is where we differ. People claim they don't need to be spoon-fed to see that Cloti is canon. But cannot take the hints that say Cloud did gave romantic feelings for Aerith.
FHS said:
I didn't say Cloud loved Aerith, I said Aerith loves Cloud. She does. No arguement from me on that. And no, he doesn't love her. Doesn't mean he doesn't care about her.
I didn't say that you said Aerith didn't love Cloud. I said you think/believe Cloud doesn't love Aerith.
Yes, care about her that Sephy's plan and the cycle of nature doesn't mean a thing to him the moment she died.
FHS said:
It really is. Having said that, I'll wait until you get a chance to read CoLw and Case of Tifa. Both really help in the characters and relationship dynamics.
They did. Tifa noticed it that's why her peevish feelings slipped.
Eileen said:
And another thing. Even in the Low HW-Scene, Cloud and Tifa are still embarrassed of something the next day. What could it be if they didn't share their mutual feelings? Barret, Cid and Red heard something that C&T didn't want them to hear.
Both of them? I thought it was only Tifa.
Tifa had something to be embarrassed about with the low affection version. Cloud didn't return Tifa's feelings. That was what she was embarrassed about.
EDIT: I interchanged Eileen and FHS's posts. Sorry.
Claim: To be a mage doesn't make you destined for romance.
Again. What did I say? Did I say it makes someone destined for love if he is a mage? No.
I said that the love interest was always a mage.
Not that every mage is a possible love interest.
Claim: Snow is not a main character.
He is not THE main character, but he is A main character. He also appears in FFXIII-2 - though his appearance is rather... well... not-so-handsome anymore.
This is one of several posts you tried to make on the subject. We do not have short memories, LL. Please do not flimflam us.
I'll get to other responses in time.
FHS wrote:
And another thing. Even in the Low HW-Scene, Cloud and Tifa are still embarrassed of something the next day. What could it be if they didn't share their mutual feelings? Barret, Cid and Red heard something that C&T didn't want them to hear.
Sucks that you can't play it. It really does offer a clearer view of the overall narrative.
I'll wait until you can catch up on reading before debating some more. ^^ It can be daunting having so much to answer at once, so thanks for taking it all in stride.
Claim: LL saying Tifa is easy to embarrass is a character insult.
...?
And how? Saying that she is easy to embarrass just means she takes many things very serious.
...How is that an "assassination"...???
Claim: The High Affection Scene is risque.
So, wait: Nomura said this line wasn't considered to be "important" when they've been asked about the "risque" line, and then a scene was discussed that didn't even made it into the game.
Claim: LL didn't play "the fucking game" because she says that Tifa might be embarrassed because she thinks that everyone now knows she loves Cloud romantically.
So, well, is there any line stating that Tifa knew the party members assumed she loves Cloud?
If not, this is a possible reason since we don't know what happened and since it was asked for her reasons of embarrassment.
Claim: Some/[One] Clerith are/[is] purposefully obtuse.
Some CloTis are purposefully cussing.
Claim: LL didn't read the posts properly where it was "proven" that the High Affection scene is canon.
Contrary to some, I read nearly every new post in this forum. Something very time-consuming. So, yes, I read them, and I still disagree with them.
Claim: Cloud doesn't want to be part of the group of Tifa's friends because he thinks they're stupid.
Read it again. He says he wanted to be part of the group and wanted to be invited in by them, but with time, he thought that they were stupid.
Claim: Fairheartstrife reads "just fucking fine".
My bad, it didn't seem to be so. Still doesn't seem to be so...
Claim: LL says that there is more than "one fucking love interest".
Actually, Cloud isn't seen to have any romantic feelings for any woman for sure. On the "Love" page are both Aerith and Tifa listed, meaning there are at least two possible love interests.
Claim: SE had something sexual in mind when they made the High Affection Scene.
No. It was said that the High Affection Scene was developed by Kato and that the idea was "too extreme" so they had to turn it down. Also, it was said that they didn't expect this line to be of importance or to cause this amount of trouble.
Claim: Cloud and Tifa seem to be happy and the group want to hear what "they" will say.
So Cloud and Tifa being happy or the party overhearing them is necessarily romantic?
Claim: Cloud and Aerith did never confirm their love for each other.
Cloud and Tifa can optionally confirm their feelings without words.
So Cloud and Aerith wouldn't have to confirm their feelings by a single "I love you". So the players would know through their actions, and actions are highly ambiguous.
Unless there is something stated, it didn't happen.
So seriously, there are people wondering why I don't debate about opinions? Every time I'm asked to say what I personally think about something, there is always someone calling that bullshit or insulting or facepalming.
Everytime someone expresses his own ideas in this forum (or, additionally, somewhere else), I do not do anything like this. So why again must there always be someone goofing at my own thoughts of something? And, what's even worse, facepalming without giving a reason.
See what you wrote? The one I emphasized? OK, then.
You claim that Squall and Rinoa's love was confirmed in the love page. The wording was factual and relevant to the story.
Cloud and Tifa are in said love page too. The wording was factual and relevant to the story.
Cloud and Aerith are in said love page too. The wording was about game mechanics and player's choice.
Rinoa and Aerith are quite similar, and Squall and Cloud are also quite similar. Squall and Cloud are mercenaries, Rinoa and Aerith both special women who have unique powers.
Maybe there is even more.
Claim: Though the High Affection Scene is optional, it's still canon.
Hell, then let me rephrase:
"No version of the Highwind Scene is said to be canon or default."
1. Apathetic means "no emotion/without feelings".* 2. The LA Highwind scene is apathetic (since it's taken as truth, I'll stick to it as a fact). 3. Hence, in the LA scene, nothing emotional/nothing that involves feelings happened. 4. The Ultimanias say that what actually happened within the narrative/story, through various quotes and/or summaries of the story itself. 5. What actually happens in the narrative/story itself is what is taken to be declared "canon" (<-- link provided - e.g. it's canon that Vincent and Yuffie joined the party). 6. The Ultimanias say that Cloud and Tifa conveyed feelings/emotions of wanting each other within the narrative/story itself, because of 4. 7. Cloud and Tifa conveying feelings/emotions of wanting each other is canon, because of 4, 5 and 6. 8. Conveying feelings/emotions of wanting each other cannot be apathetic, because of 1 and 3. 9. The LA Highwind scene is not canon, because of 3, 7 and 8. 10. In the HA Highwind scene, feelings/emotions are conveyed (various sources state this, I'll save you the repetition of quotes).
THAT TOOK LONGER THAN IT SHOULD HAVE.
I'm angry at myself, btw.
Conclusion: The HA Highwind scene is canon because of 3, 7 and 10.
* apathetic comes from the Greek word "pathos", which means "feeling" and the prefix "a", which means "without" (similar to the "un" prefix in English, e.g. "unspecified"). I should know, for I am Greek.
Claim: Cloud's "tender wish" and his wish to be in her room is connected with each other.
So Cloud's "tender" wish is to be in Tifa's bedroom?
Didn't he say before that it was his wish to be noticed by her? Also, being in her bedroom - is this somehow connected to the statement that his wish was to be with her?
Cloud says the line "Tender memories, blah, blah..." and then they go to Tifa's room through her window. Tifa's room is the place where it is revealed what that particular tender memory really is. The tender memory is Cloud's wish to have Tifa notice him.
... People being in people's bedrooms tend to make the latter notice the former.
This logic thing exhausts me.
Claim: LL should provide a quote stating that the present Cloud has romantic feelings for Aerith.
It doesn't seem you're good at reading someone's posts?
Why should I provide you a quote saying that Cloud has romantic feelings for Aerith if my belief is that there is no canon couple to be decided?
OK, I'm genuinely confused here. His words over her death...? Which ones? The "What are we going to do now, blah, blah" one? And you connect this speech (if it's the one) with what?
LL, I'd reply to everything with my usual flamboyant cussing, but the mods have me on a fairly tight leash, so we'll leave it as you have no factual evidence but a lot of opinion, which you refuse to substantiate because it's well, your opinion.
The LTD has caused enough headaches over the years, it needs no more victims.
