Hey CR, you've had at least three people respond to this, maybe a couple more even (I did not count) but for the sake of participation, here's my two cents:
It is possible too. But until Se provides us with more facts regarding what happened, we're only left with assumptions. Oh well.
Assumptions are natural to make in lieu of a definitive answer to a question. But they still do more harm than good. That "Assumptions make an ass out of you and me" bit gets quoted so much because its true. This particularly holds true when you are assuming something fantastic when simpler answers are available.
So what happened to all the Cetra who should have been in the Lifestream? Ifalna and Gast should be reunited by now with Aerith. But nowhere is that seen. I guess, SE forgot to make things more believable. They can't really keep things in a straight line, IMO.
SE keeps this perfectly straight, at least. When a living thing dies, it returns to the Lifestream. It ceases to be an individual spirit entirely. Its energy and memories join the stream of consciousness that flows round the planet like blood through a mundane creature. Eventually, that energy is sent back out to allow new lives to be born. Every living creature on the Planet works like this, Cetra included. The accumulation of life experience from these various creatures, plants, humans, monsters, everything, is what makes the Lifestream grow. Cetra (and people who hate someone or something a LOT apparently) can hold off the day that they fully submerge their individual self into the Lifestream if they have a purpose. It would seem they can even assist humans in doing the same, or even rebuild an individual who has already diffused, depending on how you look at it. But eventually they DO diffuse fully into that stream of consciousness, and when they do they don't come back. For all we know, by the "present day" of FFVII's world what was once Aerith is now part of a sapling growing somewhere in Wutai, or giving life to a clutch of Midgar Zolom eggs, or anything else.
Still, that's what happens in the LA HW scene. No mutual feelings of love were shared.
And as it has been confirmed many times that mutual feelings WERE shared in the canon narrative, the HA scene must therefore be canon. Your own words here are supporting the position you wish to disprove.
But for those who played the game with their 'Cloud' having a low affection for Tifa, that scene did happen. It is just that the HW scene fits whatever happens next to the game.
Not really. For those who played the game in such a way as to lower TIFA'S arbitrary affection score, that scene
was shown. Cloud's affection is not the variable measured by the affection mechanic, and just because that is the scene someone saw doesn't make it the one that "happened." Ryu's Castlevania analogy was quite illuminating on that point. And also awesome simply for referencing Castlevania
That's messed up IMO. They should just have made the HW scene non optional if they intended it.
Or, they could allow for optional divergences in scenes so that people have some variety in the game (replay value!) and still have a cohesive, canon narrative of what actually happened. Oh, wait... that's exactly what they did. Nothing messed up about it, imo.
Right. Because you can't possibly love a person who you can't go out to dinner with. No, you have to love someone who is still very much alive, someone who you can actually show to people.
Nobody said this. You are arguing against a point that was not made. I'm sure Cloud loves Aerith dearly right up to the present day, as I'm sure that Tifa, and Marlene, and everyone else who knew her does in their own way. But having a romantic relationship with her, the thing people are ACTUALLY challenging? That seems significantly less likely when you have a firm grasp of the metaphysics that govern life and death in the FFVII world.
Yeah. Trying to find someone to forget your guilt and forgive yourself is not moving on from that guilt. Okay then.
I'm confused, what are we even arguing here? By the end of FFVII, Cloud has indeed found that he needs his OWN forgiveness rather than that of Aerith with regards to her death. He has moved on from his lingering feelings of shame and guilt there. His feelings for Zack as well, it would appear. How is this romantic? At all?
This conclusion came from what Eileen was able to provide. That's why I was asking for a clarification because I cannot grasp it completely.
For me, the game begins after your push the Start button or something. It doesn't just start when you get to control the character. So what do you mean by before the game started? You have a source which talks of their interaction before the game began?
The game itself starts the moment something is happening besides the Buster Sword sitting in darkness, that is to say the train arriving for the Mako Reactor assault and Aerith's first appearance. But things did undeniably happen before that which we did not see. We actually get a brief flashback to Tifa finding Cloud at the train station, something which happened
before the span of time where the game proper started. So we know Cloud was with Tifa for a bit before that raid occurred. We can make a logical deduction that the NPCs in Sector 7 may be referring to things that happened in that time, leading them to believe Cloud and Tifa are more than JUST childhood friends.
There were quotes on how mean Cloud can be to Tifa. Barret's line wasn't included since it didn't concern him at the time.
Barret's line IS relevant to the quotes discussed though. And you're not really supporting the "this is so mean of Cloud" part of your claim. We can see the words he says there, but who is to say that giving someone a kick in the ass when they falter a bit is mean? I know I need a fire lit under me when I don't want to do something now and then. And I thank whoever lights it. Besides which, I read a measure of concern in Cloud's statements. Its hardly concrete that it is "mean" by any measure.
It's the same for me. Unless, you can provide me with a better term for what Cloud did. Still, it was pretty mean of him. Oh well, he was cold to people.
Cold =/= mean. You can be cold while doing ANYTHING. You can be coldly concerned, coldly aggressive, coldly affectionate. Since you are in fact acting cold to people, it can be hard to spot the actual emotions on display, but they can be there. Anything can be expressed coldly. See above for my feelings on the matter, and remember to bear in mind that Cloud's not exactly himself at that point anyway.
So living people are reduced to being memories rather than spiritual beings after death? Okay.
See above descriptions, mine and others alike, of how death works in FFVII. There isn't a heaven or hell for individual souls to go to and continue to exist after death. Once you fully return to the Planet, you as a person are GONE except in the memory of those still living/the memories you added to the stream of consciousness. That is what Sephiroth MEANS when he says he will never become "a mere memory". He is saying he will NEVER allow himself to diffuse fully into the Lifestream, that he will never cease to be an individual being even after multiple deaths. So yes, living people ARE reduced to being memories rather than spiritual beings after death. If she is following the rules, Aerith as a person
does not exist at all by the time of DoC.
Now, I don't discount her making an exception and remaining an individual for a time longer. After all, if Sephiroth refuses to play by the rules and diffuse she just
might be needed again. But, it seems likely that she IS gone, considering the Omega incident in DoC DID happen and Aerith was nowhere to be found.
Unless I'm missing a quote or something where it says that that's the *only* reason why she showed herself to Cloud, this is only part of it.
I liked what someone else (Ryu, I believe) said to this enough to let it stand on its own. I only bothered to quote this so my support for said statement would be easily understood.
The 'labyrinth of his heart' is what then? It's about how he is lost in his emotions?
People get so worked up about the word "heart" in situations like these. In a great many cultures, the heart is seen as the emotional center of a human being. As in ALL emotions are centered on the heart. Its not just a romantic thing, guilt, joy, regret, anger, etc ALL reside within the heart. That'd make for one hell of a labyrinth in a well adjusted person, let alone someone with all the issues Cloud has accrued over his life.
Oh. My bad. I thought it was just on of those times he almost closed his fist then opened them again before he died. Comparing it to when Cloud held Aerith's hand, yeah it's similar.
It most certainly is similar. Kadaj is clearly reaching for someone that neither Cloud nor the audience can see at that point, and the way his hand moves shows that he found said person.
About her being reflected in his eyes, when I watched it again, I tried getting a snapshot of his eyes. There seem to be a figure there. But it remained unmoving, like it's the reflection of the light or something. If you could get a clearer shot of his eyes where Aerith's reflection is clear, could you post it?
I don't know about this one either, I never noticed such a reflection in Kadaj's eyes myself. So I would love to see this too if possible, when you get a chance Ryu.
I forgot about it. I did not ignore it.
She called them on the phone. But she did not appear to them. Idk what to make of it really. SE decided to let the audience see Aerith fully at the end. I don't think they thought about us debating why Aerith was able to do so. She just did.
Whether they saw her or not, you have to admit that she did communicate, rather directly, with an absolute shitload of people during the course of the film. Note that only one of them is Cloud. Many of them, she's probably never met before. Moogle Girl, for instance, is the one who explains to Cloud that Aerith said he would be at the church. That plus Kadaj's death scene pokes a pretty decent hole in the "Cloud and Aerith's special bond allows her to appear to him!" argument.
My head is hurting from all this thinking. So I'm gonna give it my best shot here.
Tis good to see you thinking your points through, but don't hurt yourself over it
The LTD has caused enough headaches over the years, it needs no more victims.
I didn't say it was meaningless. Did I say that?
I just said that Aerith did not need to make Tifa or Marlene sense her. They could have sensed her on their own because they knew/thought/hoped that she was there for Cloud.
That... doesn't make a lot of sense to me really. You may not be saying that it is meaningless, but you do seem to be downplaying the importance of anyone but Cloud sensing/communicating with Aerith. I suppose it makes her appearances before him less special if so many others have some contact, however different it may be? Lemme comment on the alternate reasons for them sensing her as you describe them below:
For Marlene, she wasn't really sure it was Aerith. But seeing as she thought it was Aerith, that maybe what she was hoping for.
No, Marlene seems entirely certain that its Aerith when she calls out upon sensing her. There is surprise there, but it is surprise that she's sensing a DEAD WOMAN, not surprise about the identity. It's not phrased as "Is that you big sis?!" It's not asking "are you who I think you are?" as if there is any doubt. It's "Sister?!" as in "I know who you are, but how the hell are you here?!"
For Tifa, she knew what Aerith felt for Cloud. So she would also assume that Aerith would be there for him.
I can sorta see this, to an extent. But as pointed out, she says thank you to Aerith for being there for "us." For everyone present who was fighting for the Planet, from Cloud to Barret to Vincent and Yuffie. Everyone on that team was Aerith's friend. Cloud needed her more, but she was there for everyone. Why Cid or Nanaki didn't sense her as well, I couldn't say, but considering how they feel about Aerith and how she felt about them, I see no reason why Tifa only sensed her because she "assumed she'd be there based on her feelings for Cloud." Maybe Aerith intentionally let Tifa, the friend she spent so much time with whenever the team split up, sense her. Maybe Tifa did it entirely on her own. Either way, it doesn't make it any less special that Tifa DID know she was present and acknowledge it.
I was just incorporating Tres's claim that Aerith can choose to whome she appears to or calls to. Having the ability to choose is powerful in itself. That's just me though.
I'd imagine what she is doing is probably pretty tough, what with it being against the normal progression between life and death and back the FFVII universe runs on. Appearing to just one or two people at a time would probably be a shitload easier than trying to be "present" to everyone at once. I agree that being able to choose who sees her and who doesn't, if indeed she is doing so on purpose, is powerful in its own right. But its a very different kind of powerful from being able to stand with AVALANCHE, with everyone present being able to see and hear her, if you get my drift. So while it may be powerful in and of itself to be ABLE to choose, it doesn't invalidate the possibility that she may HAVE to pick and choose.
GLD, I am trying here. Really. But with every quote we provide, you keep coming back to the idea that it's only because of guilt or sorrow for losing a friend. To you, Aerith is just a friend. That's what hindering you from seeing our side as it is. I'm talking in general here.
Not at all, actually. I am in the camp that Aerith definitely loved Cloud, and had romantic aspirations on him. She WAS a love rival to Tifa when she was alive. I accept that Cloud had some manner of feelings for her, though I do not care to guess at whether they were the stirrings of true love or just an attraction to a beautiful and outgoing female. Even if he DOES love her romantically, which is unsupported by the narrative or anything your side has managed to come up with (without a lot of twisting at any rate), I'm polyamorous, or however that's said. I know what its like to be in love with two or more people at once. You can still choose one over the other, especially if one of them is DEAD. That isn't what prevents me from seeing your side of it, what prevents that is that Cloti has a crap-load of factual evidence. I'm not gonna lay it all out again, you've seen it and can choose to accept the writing on the wall or ignore it, whatever. Clerith is a sweet fanon pairing, and I am happy for you if you enjoy it. But as far as the canonicity of one relationship or the other, Clerith just isn't in Clot's weight class. I see the quotes you put up, and like it or not they ARE identified with Cloud's guilt and shame. Because while attraction between Cloud and Aerith is verified, while her feelings for him are pretty well spelled out, a MUTUAL romance is unsupported between them. For Cloud and Tifa, its out and out stated.
THAT'S why I think the LTD is, in effect, over. Because no matter how long it goes on, Cloud and Tifa's love is heavily supported within the game, the guidebooks, the film, the creator interviews. Clerith just doesn't have the same amount of juice.
So now we ignore and misinterpret things?
I read what you were responding to and I
still don't know what you're trying to say. Sorry if I'm just dense, or if this is a joke, but I highly doubt anyone here wants it said that we can ignore and misinterpret things. Even as Anastar continues to do just that, I am positive she wouldn't say so.
Tell me this then: because Cloud and Tifa are living together in CoT, then the story canon is the HW scene? Is that it? Without SE ever saying that it IS the story canon?
That and a multitude of other things that have all long since been laid on the table. As for SE flat out saying "This right here? This is canon" when do they EVER do that? When does anyone do that? I've seen some statements such as this from DC comics in the past, maybe even some from Marvel, but the majority of folks do not make such blatant statements unless I am missing something. It's been said before, and bears saying again: We do not need to be spoon-fed every little bit of information to come to the right conclusion.
SE made up for it by making Aerith able to appear to Cloud.
Except she hasn't done so since. And very likely cannot, as per the explanations provided to you about how returning to the Planet actually works. Case in point, DoC was all about the fate of the world being in jeopardy once again. Where was Aerith? Why wasn't she helping with that?
Are you taking it literally? That's just great, because I'm not. I think in one of my next posts, I put in "spiritual" there so no one would claim that Aerith lives inside Cloud's physical body.
But she shouldn't be literally "living on" in any way. In his body or anything. So what exactly ARE you claiming?
This just makes your statement insulting. If you keep doing that, I'm withdrawing from my debate with you.
If you're getting genuinely insulted, walking away from who or whatever is upsetting you is the best thing to do.
Simple questions can be answered in a simple way as well.
Sometimes they can be, and sometimes they need more context. Or a point that was already made may bear repeating in full. No sense harping on how the person chose to answer so long as it was an honest and complete answer with no twisting or partial ignoring, right?
I'm not saying that Cloud should be in a romantic relationship with Aerith even if she's dead. I'm saying that he can continue loving her, and much more so because she can manifest herself to him at times.
*sigh* Again, no one is arguing that Cloud has to stop loving anyone just because they die. If, in the future, Tifa died, Cloud wouldn't stop loving her. But again you're using the "Aerith can appear to Cloud" thing to support.... something, I'm not even sure what anymore, and the evidence just doesn't bear up under the weight of it. Aerith's brief period of manifestation to Cloud wasn't, by what SE has given us to go on, something she can do on a whim. Even IF she still exists as an individual being, she can't just go see Cloud any time she wants. And aside from being dear friends with an attraction (the full strength of which has never been specified, might I add), we have no support for them being in love to begin with. Thus we have no support for her WANTING TO DO THIS even if we accepted that she could.
You didn't have to go size 7 on that.
Unless, of course, they felt that they DID need to do so in order to call the proper amount of attention to the text.
Which doesn't hold much basis doesn't it? We didn't see what happened that gained that kind of reaction from her. And after this, Cloud doesn't even act like a childhood friend at the least.
Alright then, I don't wanna see any speculation from you on things that aren't factually stated either then. Like Aerith being able to appear to Cloud (or anyone else) post-ACC, for example. Hold yourself to the same standards you demand of those with whom you debate.
Then why did Barret stop her from telling Cloud?
Tense, time sensitive situations are not the time to let your fellow terrorists get off on an unrelated tangent? Its not like they were doing this over a Codec, where time stops to let you spew your life story in the middle of a gun-battle. They needed to get going, like, NOW.
Where does it say that she can't visit Cloud ever again?
Where does it say she can?
If she can, why hasn't she during further events in the Compilation? Events just as important, on a global scale, as anything Sephiroth ever did, might I add.
She returned to the Lifestream in the game, but she was able to visit Cloud 2 years after. She returned to the Lifestream again, what's to stop her from doing it again?
Different usage of the term "return to the Lifestream" is in play here I think. Yes, Aerith was dead during the events of FFVII (post stabbity death, of course) and onward. She had a purpose in remaining individual from the stream at the time, so she could manifest later. After the game, Sephiroth was mucking up the Lifestream, so more purpose. If her purpose is now over (not saying this with certainty, see above) she will
cease to be an individual being and join the swell of memories that is the Lifestream. And again, even if she IS still herself, can you prove she can interact with the living at will? Or does she need a very important reason to do that? If she can do so with a very important reason, where is she in DoC when she HAS such a motivation?
Again, nowhere does it state that it's her *only* purpose. If it was her only purpose, why do it after two years? She should've done it immediately after Cloud left to find forgiveness if it was her only purpose. Just like your question to me. He has carried the same burden for over two years, even more so when he got Geostigma, depending on CoT's timeline.
Its the only purpose that HAS been stated, if I am recalling what I've read properly. Any other purpose she has must be inferred, and as I've mentioned you have yet to support the purpose you would like to see as even existing. And how does her having/not having ulterior motives for appearing during ACC bring the length of time she took into the equation? If she had MORE reasons to show up, isn't that MORE reason for her to come sooner rather than later?
Why in his heart? He keeps his promise to Tifa etched only in his memory, so why make guilt stay in his heart?
See above concerning people forgetting that "heart" is the seat of all human emotions,
not just love. Also, I know you're better than to try and tear down Tifa by claiming she is ONLY etched in his memory, and not his heart at all. I refuse to believe that is what you meant. So while others have graciously provided an explanation of how that whole thing works, please do tell me what you were trying to say here?
