The Love Triangle Debate thread of KNEEL BEFORE ZOD OR SUFFER HIS WRATH (ignore the opening posts at your peril) (Round 6)

[Ⓐaron]

I think the thing that more than anything prevents me from taking Clerith Is Canon™ arguments seriously, more than the fact that the creators have all but stated Cloti is canon, more than the fact that the game itself strongly implies that Cloud isn't able to rebuild his shattered psyche without Tifa, more even than the fact that there is never a shred of evidence presented to show that Cloud has the same kind of feelings for Aerith that he has for Tifa, is that the Clerith arguments require Cloud to be a complete asshole. He would have to string along the woman he knows to love him, start a family with her even though he has no feelings for her whatsoever, all for the love of some dead flower girl. Cloud may be incapable of expressing himself, and he may come across as rather cold at the beginning of the game, but he is not an asshole. It completely contradicts his characterisation from the rest of the compilation.

I'm still not reading much of this thread but I just felt like throwing that out there.

 

[Marle]

It's funny cause like

the way I see it the LA version kinda makes more sense with the compilation?? Ok hear me out: if FF7 stayed put as a standalone game I'd say it 1000% makes more sense in the narrative for the HA to be "canon" but

With CoT/AC obviously their communication problem is something they still have to work on, which is something the LA scene hints at that the HA scene doesn't quite do.

When it comes down to it tho in a narrative sense either scene could really work, because you either have a Cloud that can't express himself which foreshadows the problems occurring in CoT or you have Cloud jumping into the relationship when he's still got demons to sort out

but imo the HA scene as canon just makes it look like really lazy rehashed writing which

i guess describes what the compilation is anyway....

Either way when it comes down to it CoT just skips over all that and starts them off at the point in which they're starting a new life so whatever you got can still be canon for you so long as we're all on the same page at the start of OTWTAS /shrug

Zee, I adore you for your perspectives, so don't stop dishing them

See, for me, the communication being an issue still exists even in the HAHW. It tells it perfectly when Cloud says to Tifa how much he needs to tell her and that he doesn't know how, to which Tifa uses that infamous line. The main reason why I think the LA scene makes little sense compilation wise is because Cloud's pretty cold to Tifa and they barely discuss their feelings. Which leaves me confused as to why he'd want to pursue a relationship with her at the beginning of CoT at all. His attitude in that scene just sucks and the writing for it is weak. For an impressive scene, it doesn't accomplish much at all.

Just like how even though you can get Barret, Yuffie or Tifa for the date doesn't leave the story with as much meaning than when it's Aerith.

But I can see where you're coming from and I can get why it might make sense. It really made me analyze the scenes more properly so I quite enjoyed it. Which is what a debate should be like.

 

[Zee]

@Theozilla: Well I didn't save the HA scene didn't fit at all just that the LA scene can fit just as well. Seeing how the compilation itself skirts around what actually happened the player can fill in the blanks themselves.

The main reason why I think the LA scene makes little sense compilation wise is because Cloud's pretty cold to Tifa and they barely discuss their feelings. Which leaves me confused as to why he'd want to pursue a relationship with her at the beginning of CoT at all.

Really? I didn't find him cold so much as sorta confused, which makes sense after just piecing his memories together which is some pretty heavy stuff to take in. They still spend the night together which still implies a closeness just not the same level as the HA. I always thought either way that scene was the beginning of them regarding each other as family.

Also ty bb. ;; I like bouncing back perspectives with you too! <3

more even than the fact that there is never a shred of evidence presented to show that Cloud has the same kind of feelings for Aerith that he has for Tifa,

Well

When Sephiroth asks him what's most important he only sees Zack, Tifa, and Aeris flash through his mind. Aeris was the prominent love interest before disk two sooooooo.....if she's one of the three people that's most important to him + one of his love interests that's kind of an obvious indicator

is that the Clerith arguments require Cloud to be a complete asshole. He would have to string along the woman he knows to love him, start a family with her even though he has no feelings for her whatsoever, all for the love of some dead flower girl. Cloud may be incapable of expressing himself, and he may come across as rather cold at the beginning of the game, but he is not an asshole. It completely contradicts his characterisation from the rest of the compilation.

I really

don't get why people think Cloud has to be an asshole for Clerith to be canon!
Just because he had feelings for Aeris while alive doesn't mean he can't love Tifa as well. He's not ignoring a living girl for a dead one, but after watching someone you love die in front of you, it's not like you'd be eager to subject someone else to that.

imo FF7's love stories had this over arching theme of loss and forgiveness and sort of had a bittersweet ending - that Zack and Aeris ending up in the same place, but they're not really together - Aeris aids Cloud, but towards a life she can never be a part of. That doesn't make either of their relationships less significant because they didn't work out in the end or the character moved on.

Cloti and Cleris can co exist without completely derailing the characters really!

 

[Theozilla]

@Theozilla: Well I didn't save the HA scene didn't fit at all just that the LA scene can fit just as well. Seeing how the compilation itself skirts around what actually happened the player can fill in the blanks themselves.



Really? I didn't find him cold so much as sorta confused, which makes sense after just piecing his memories together which is some pretty heavy stuff to take in. They still spend the night together which still implies a closeness just not the same level as the HA. I always thought either way that scene was the beginning of them regarding each other as family.

Also ty bb. ;; I like bouncing back perspectives with you too! <3



Well

When Sephiroth asks him what's most important he only sees Zack, Tifa, and Aeris flash through his mind. Aeris was the prominent love interest before disk two sooooooo.....if she's one of the three people that's most important to him + one of his love interests that's kind of an obvious indicator



I really

don't get why people think Cloud has to be an asshole for Clerith to be canon!
Just because he had feelings for Aeris while alive doesn't mean he can't love Tifa as well. He's not ignoring a living girl for a dead one, but after watching someone you love die in front of you, it's not like you'd be eager to subject someone else to that.

imo FF7's love stories had this over arching theme of loss and forgiveness and sort of had a bittersweet ending - that Zack and Aeris ending up in the same place, but they're not really together - Aeris aids Cloud, but towards a life she can never be a part of. That doesn't make either of their relationships less significant because they didn't work out in the end or the character moved on.

Cloti and Cleris can co exist without completely derailing the characters really!

Ehhh, yeah it could fit, but I still don't see it as being a better fit to the narrative than the canon HA version.

Also Marlene and Denzel are also included in the "flash" in AC/C in addition to Zack, Tifa, and Aertih. And while it does show that Aerith is someone that Cloud greatly cherished it is not enough to be concrete evidence for a romantic interest.

EDIT: Ah, I see Tobias Fünke already responded himself.

 

[Ⓐaron]

I'm not talking about people who argue that he loved both. That's actually somewhat plausible. The people who argue that he doesn't love Tifa, however, make him out to be a complete asshole.

And yeah I was referring to people who argue for him to continue loving Aerith and not Tifa after her death.

 

[OneWingedDemon]

the way I see it the LA version kinda makes more sense with the compilation?? Ok hear me out: if FF7 stayed put as a standalone game I'd say it 1000% makes more sense in the narrative for the HA to be "canon" but

With CoT/AC obviously their communication problem is something they still have to work on, which is something the LA scene hints at that the HA scene doesn't quite do.

The LA scene isn't necessary in hinting anything of the sort. In fact, it's downright redundant if that is the case and, in addition, quite nonsensical considering that Cloud and Tifa must have communicated something in order to live together and raise kids later in CoT.

There is an entire game in which Cloud and Tifa are unable to communicate for various reasons. Tifa starts as a character with a big secret both with regards to Cloud's history and also her own feelings for Cloud. Cloud's story is likewise one of deception (Cloud himself doesn't know his past and similarly, like Tifa, his own feelings for her aren't communicated until much later). The whole point of the end is the revelation of all this crap. Ditto for Cloud and Tifa's love. An LA version in which nothing is communicated leaves both these characters exactly where they started, which makes for shitty characterization.

Not to mention that following the LA version in which you say they did not communicate, we then lose the narrative link between the end and Cloud and Tifa's jump into their CoT life. If their romantic issues aren't touched on/resolved, then how do they progress there? How do we end up at CoT? How can the LA version make more sense?

 

[Strangelove]

Cloud doesn't hear Tifa's heart calling to him, otherwise idk what else is different.

I totally made this list just now based on the Ultimania Omega's write up of it:

HA: Cloud hears Tifa shouting, which calls him back from the sea of consciousness in the Lifestream, and he refers to his promise to save her.
LA: Cloud only thinks he hears Tifa's voice.

HA: Cloud says that it was Tifa who taught him, in the Lifestream, that whoever/whatever might be watching them (stars, etc.), they just have to do what they can and believe in themselves.
LA: Cloud says they'll find the answer someday, as long as they just don't give up.

HA: Cloud has a lot of things he wants to talk to Tifa about, but now he's alone with her he doesn't know what to say anymore. "Cloud, words aren't the only way to tell someone how you feel..." "Tifa..."
LA: Cloud suggests they get an early night for tomorrow's battle.

HA: The morning after, Cloud apoligises for waking Tifa and tells her it's nearly dawn. Tifa sounds a bit shy/hesitant with her speech ("Right... Erm... M-, morning... Cloud.")
LA: Cloud simply says good morning and tells her it's almost dawn. Tifa speaks normally ("Right... Morning, Cloud.")

HA: When Tifa asks for a bit of time to stay as they are, Cloud says that this might be the final time they have together.
LA: Cloud is silent.

HA: When Cid says that if they'd have interrupted them then they wouldn't know what they'd say later, Tifa asks if they were watching and collapses onto the floor.
LA: Tifa asks if they were listening, and starts prodding the floor with the tip of her foot.

 

[Zee]

Also Marlene and Denzel are also included in the "flash" in AC/C in addition to Zack, Tifa, and Aertih. And while it does show that Aerith is someone that Cloud greatly cherished it is not enough to be concrete evidence for a romantic interest.

I'm doing it from memory so I only recall them showing Tifa hugging the children in that photo, I really don't remember if he flashed them separately or not but I always figured it was representing three aspects of things he lost/didn't want to lose again:

I mean we have family = Tifa/Marlene/Denzel
Friendship = Zack
Aeris = ????

Her interaction with Cloud while she was alive was littered with romantic overtones so it's not like it's a stretch to count her as a previous romantic interest.

An LA version in which nothing is communicated leaves both these characters exactly where they started, which makes for shitty characterization.

lol but AC starts them exactly where they started anyway the characterization is shit regardless!!

We've communicated about our communication problems, but I've failed to communicate so I've got to communicate your communication issues to me yet again????????

I mean really okay I'm not saying the LA scene is stellar or anything but let's not act like SE didn't entirely rehash Cloud and Tifa's exact same problem they spent a game getting over with the HA scene.

Not to mention that following the LA version in which you say they did not communicate, we then lose the narrative link between the end and Cloud and Tifa's jump into their CoT life.

,,,,waht i

did not say they didn't communicate in fact I said Tifa gets her feelings across just fine, Cloud is just not as enthusiastic but he still says that they can find answers together leading to CoT where they're starting a life.

it's not like it's impossible to reconcile the two scenes with the start of CoT; if anything it's written specifically to start everyone off at the same point no matter what ending they got.

 

[Master Bates]

I totally made this list just now based on the Ultimania Omega's write up of it:

HA: Cloud hears Tifa shouting, which calls him back from the sea of consciousness in the Lifestream, and he refers to his promise to save her.
LA: Cloud only thinks he hears Tifa's voice.

HA: Cloud says that it was Tifa who taught him, in the Lifestream, that whoever/whatever might be watching them (stars, etc.), they just have to do what they can and believe in themselves.
LA: Cloud says they'll find the answer someday, as long as they just don't give up.

HA: Cloud has a lot of things he wants to talk to Tifa about, but now he's alone with her he doesn't know what to say anymore. "Cloud, words aren't the only way to tell someone how you feel..." "Tifa..."
LA: Cloud suggests they get an early night for tomorrow's battle.

HA: The morning after, Cloud apoligises for waking Tifa and tells her it's nearly dawn. Tifa sounds a bit shy/hesitant with her speech ("Right... Erm... M-, morning... Cloud.")
LA: Cloud simply says good morning and tells her it's almost dawn. Tifa speaks normally ("Right... Morning, Cloud.")

HA: When Tifa asks for a bit of time to stay as they are, Cloud says that this might be the final time they have together.
LA: Cloud is silent.

HA: When Cid says that if they'd have interrupted them then they wouldn't know what they'd say later, Tifa asks if they were watching and collapses onto the floor.
LA: Tifa asks if they were listening, and starts prodding the floor with the tip of her foot.

Well, it seems to me they haven't really confirmed their "mutual" feelings in the LA version compared to the HA one, which means the latter must've happened.

But hell if I know what I'm talking about.

 

[Theozilla]

I'm doing it from memory so I only recall them showing Tifa hugging the children in that photo, I really don't remember if he flashed them separately or not but I always figured it was representing three aspects of things he lost/didn't want to lose again:

I mean we have family = Tifa/Marlene/Denzel
Friendship = Zack
Aeris = ????

Her interaction with Cloud while she was alive was littered with romantic overtones so it's not like it's a stretch to count her as a previous romantic interest.



lol but AC starts them exactly where they started anyway the characterization is shit regardless!!

We've communicated about our communication problems, but I've failed to communicate so I've got to communicate your communication issues to me yet again????????

I mean really okay I'm not saying the LA scene is stellar or anything but let's not act like SE didn't entirely rehash Cloud and Tifa's exact same problem they spent a game getting over with the HA scene.



,,,,waht i

did not say they didn't communicate in fact I said Tifa gets her feelings across just fine, Cloud is just not as enthusiastic but he still says that they can find answers together leading to CoT where they're starting a life.

it's not like it's impossible to reconcile the two scenes with the start of CoT; if anything it's written specifically to start everyone off at the same point no matter what ending they got.

No it flashes through each of them separately, Aerith, Tifa, Marlene, Denzel, and then Zack.

And I am not arguing that Aerith did not fall in love with Cloud, so of course there is romantic overtones in some of their interactions, but like other posters have said there is not sufficient evidence to say that cloud reciprocated her feelings.

And AC/C does not starts Cloud and Tifa exactly where they were before the Highwind scene, a couple can go through relationship troubles even if they have already expressed their feelings before. And the crux of their problems is not communication but being able to let go of guilt and forgiving one's self. During the original game Cloud had not started having problems with his guilt yet, because it was not being intensified due his feelings of happiness that he did have in Case of Tifa. So no they were no rehashing the same problem that Cloud and Tifa went through in the original game (which was regaining identity and discovering and realizing feelings).

And again it is not impossible to reconcile the LA Highwind scene with the start of CoT, but it does not fit as well logically and narratively as the HA Highwind scene (which is the stated canon version).

 

[Ryushikaze]

It's funny cause like

the way I see it the LA version kinda makes more sense with the compilation?? Ok hear me out: if FF7 stayed put as a standalone game I'd say it 1000% makes more sense in the narrative for the HA to be "canon" but

With CoT/AC obviously their communication problem is something they still have to work on, which is something the LA scene hints at that the HA scene doesn't quite do.

When it comes down to it tho in a narrative sense either scene could really work, because you either have a Cloud that can't express himself which foreshadows the problems occurring in CoT or you have Cloud jumping into the relationship when he's still got demons to sort out

but imo the HA scene as canon just makes it look like really lazy rehashed writing which

i guess describes what the compilation is anyway....

Either way when it comes down to it CoT just skips over all that and starts them off at the point in which they're starting a new life so whatever you got can still be canon for you so long as we're all on the same page at the start of OTWTAS /shrug

Establishing that you have communication issues and then managing to work through them in one instance does not mean you have gotten over those communication issues at all.
Especially since the communication issues of AC/C are actually materially different from those in play in FF7.
In FF7 Cloud wanted to tell but could not.
In AC/C, Cloud does not want to share because he has taken his burdens entirely upon himself because of his guilt complex.

Well

When Sephiroth asks him what's most important he only sees Zack, Tifa, and Aeris flash through his mind. Aeris was the prominent love interest before disk two sooooooo.....if she's one of the three people that's most important to him + one of his love interests that's kind of an obvious indicator

If we establish that she was a serious love interest- which is a possibility, but not certain- sure, it could mean something. But given that Zack and the kids are included to, it definitely need not be romantic.

I really

don't get why people think Cloud has to be an asshole for Clerith to be canon!
Just because he had feelings for Aeris while alive doesn't mean he can't love Tifa as well. He's not ignoring a living girl for a dead one, but after watching someone you love die in front of you, it's not like you'd be eager to subject someone else to that.

'Clerith!Cloud' is an asshole because he's a user. He's taking advantage of Tifa despite his lack of interest in her. That's not 'LovedBoth!Cloud' BTW.

imo FF7's love stories had this over arching theme of loss and forgiveness and sort of had a bittersweet ending - that Zack and Aeris ending up in the same place, but they're not really together - Aeris aids Cloud, but towards a life she can never be a part of. That doesn't make either of their relationships less significant because they didn't work out in the end or the character moved on.

The thing about Cloud and Aerith for me is that they're sharing the same narrative through different sides of a funhouse mirror. Cloud and Aerith are both coming to terms with themselves- finding their true selves and becoming better for it.
Forgiveness isn't the key theme, either. That you don't need forgiveness is actually closer to the case.

Cloti and Cleris can co exist without completely derailing the characters really!

They both can, but Clerith can't exist on its own post Aerith mortem without everyone turning into an asshole or doormat.

I'm doing it from memory so I only recall them showing Tifa hugging the children in that photo, I really don't remember if he flashed them separately or not but I always figured it was representing three aspects of things he lost/didn't want to lose again:

The kids and Tifa got flashes apart and separate.

I mean we have family = Tifa/Marlene/Denzel
Friendship = Zack
Aeris = ????

Her interaction with Cloud while she was alive was littered with romantic overtones so it's not like it's a stretch to count her as a previous romantic interest.

Yeah, but technically so was Jesse's interaction with Cloud.

lol but AC starts them exactly where they started anyway the characterization is shit regardless!!

No, it doesn't. Even if we do boil it down to 'communicaton problems' like you do, the nature of those problems are completely different.

We've communicated about our communication problems, but I've failed to communicate so I've got to communicate your communication issues to me yet again????????

The problem here is that you assume one communication problem solved is all of them solved. This is totally not the case.

I mean really okay I'm not saying the LA scene is stellar or anything but let's not act like SE didn't entirely rehash Cloud and Tifa's exact same problem they spent a game getting over with the HA scene.

They didn't.
A man having trouble expressing his feelings and a man having trouble asking his family for help for what he considers problems that will only burden them ARE NOT THE SAME PROBLEMS.

,,,,waht i

did not say they didn't communicate in fact I said Tifa gets her feelings across just fine, Cloud is just not as enthusiastic but he still says that they can find answers together leading to CoT where they're starting a life.

it's not like it's impossible to reconcile the two scenes with the start of CoT; if anything it's written specifically to start everyone off at the same point no matter what ending they got.

To which I simply ask, where's the romance in that?
Bringing this all the way back to the FTOIL page, it quite simply says there's a romantic confirmation of feelings that evening. Period, end of. If that can be fit into both versions, then so be it. If not, oh well.

 

[Dashell]

I really

don't get why people think Cloud has to be an asshole for Clerith to be canon!
Just because he had feelings for Aeris while alive doesn't mean he can't love Tifa as well. He's not ignoring a living girl for a dead one, but after watching someone you love die in front of you, it's not like you'd be eager to subject someone else to that.

You keep bringing this up again and again, but what you fail to realize is NO ONE is saying he can't love both. You keep insisting that we're all saying "Cloud is a douche for loving two girls." and we're not. No one is. Please stop saying this.

What we're saying is Cloud is a douche, for moving in with a girl he knows has romantic feelings with him even though he has none in her, stringing her along, having her pay with a lifetime of labor for his motorcycle even though he has no intent to stay with her, starts a family with her, in which he loves the child of his friend more than the child his lover supposedly brought to him, and basically uses Tifa.

How does that NOT make him seem like an asshole?

 

[Zee]

You keep bringing this up again and again, but what you fail to realize is NO ONE is saying he can't love both. You keep insisting that we're all saying "Cloud is a douche for loving two girls." and we're not. No one is. Please stop saying this.

when someone says "i have a problem with the clerith is canon theory" i can't mind read and assume they only mean one specific POV

excuuuuuse me princess

What we're saying is Cloud is a douche, for moving in with a girl he knows has romantic feelings with him even though he has none in her, stringing her along, having her pay with a lifetime of labor for his motorcycle even though he has no intent to stay with her, starts a family with her, in which he loves the child of his friend more than the child his lover supposedly brought to him, and basically uses Tifa.

Um just playing devil's advocate but let's run with the theory that Cloud has no romantic feelings for Tifa -- so he can't view her as bestie/family and want to live with her? I wasn't aware if someone loved you, you were either obligated to love them back or cut off ties with them forever lol

 

[Dashell]

Um just playing devil's advocate but let's run with the theory that Cloud has no romantic feelings for Tifa -- so he can't view her as bestie/family and want to live with her? I wasn't aware if someone loved you, you were either obligated to love them back or cut off ties with them forever lol

Before I respond, please point out where I said this. I seriously grow so tired of people accusing me of things I never said.

 

[Zee]

Cloud is a douche, for moving in with a girl he knows has romantic feelings with him even though he has none in her, stringing her along,

that's pretty much what you're implying by saying cloud is a douche for living with a girl that likes him

but if you wanna clarify go right ahead

 

[Octo]

If it helps*, I think Cloud would be a douche for 'loving' two girls, given that he only knew one of them for 2 weeks before she died. I don't think its impossible that he was attracted to Aerith, or that if she had lived they couldn't have had a relationship.

He didn't reciprocate Aeriths feelings while she was alive, on their date he had an oppurtunity yet he was still oblivious. So thinking logically for a moment, if Cloud had feelings for Aerith, wouldn't he have said something to her? Given that she was so forward with her feelings?

And what about Cait Sith's *cough* 'prediction'? Wouldn't Cloud have got excited about that? Or at least said something? She wanted to know how compatible they were - you can't get much more blunt than that. Yet Cloud doesn't say a fucking thing during that scene at all.

(And yeah, we can say 'Well Cloud always had a crush on Tifa, so why didn't he say/do anything on their date?' The thing is, Tifa basically fudges what she wanted to say, and he remains oblivious.)

So I really don't see how he could have actually loved both girls. Unless he suddenly decided that he loved Aerith after she died. Which I think everyone can agree, is fucking weird.

I can understand completely why he would feel guilt over her death, she was his friend, and it was because of him she got involved in the first place, and he almost killed her himself twice.

But the idea that he's still hung up on what was, at most, a bit of a crush he had for 2 weeks just makes him out to be an idiot, and makes his treatment of Tifa and his family just plain reprehensible.

*it doesn't does it?

EDIT: Here is Cait Sith's prediction scene. Cloud doesn't even move a muscle! Not even his usual 'head scratch' (Apologies for the 'creative' character names lol)

EDIT 2:

Cloud is a douche, for moving in with a girl he knows has romantic feelings with him even though he has none in her, stringing her along,​

that's pretty much what you're implying by saying cloud is a douche for living with a girl that likes him

but if you wanna clarify go right ahead

Well, yeah pretty much. If we're saying Cloud knows Tifa has feelings for him, yet he decides to live with her then thats a douchey move, because playing 'daddy' is stringing her along (as well as all that other stuff - motorbike payments and being together 'in a different way'). Plus it makes idiots out of both of them. They don't have to cut off contact, but living together under the same roof and raising kids? So what happens when one or both of them starts a relationship with someone else? Marlene and Denzel have been fucked over enough without having their new family being fractured like that.

If we're saying neither of them have feelings for the other, its just idiocy instead of douchery. Living together is going to create difficulties down the line, because the way the kids view it Cloud and Tifa are their parents.

 

[Ryushikaze]

when someone says "i have a problem with the clerith is canon theory" i can't mind read and assume they only mean one specific POV

excuuuuuse me princess

Why do you assume they mean the less commonly discussed one and not the one that has specifically been referred to as the particular theory which results in Cloud being a giant asshole by taking advantage of a woman he knows loves him.

And no, NO ONE is saying he's 'obligated' to love her back, but you know what he is kinda obligated to be? A decent human being.
Taking advantage of Tifa to get her to trade a lifetime of goods and service for his own bike when he had zero interest in her but knows she's interested in him is pretty fucking douchey.

 

[Master Bates]

The reason why I am skeptical with Cloud loving Aerith romantically is because I don't think he is capable of it in disc one. I am still under the impression that he wasn't interested in either girls during the span of that disc. Sure, he flirts and gets attracted to some extent, but falling in love? Disc1Cloud didn't give me that vibe. He was even more fixated in tracking down Sephiroth and ironing out the assfuckery inside his head.

But I am not saying he isn't capable of having good relationships with them. I'm sure he wasn't completely "out of it" during that disc, or if he was, then I would also doubt the friendships he formed with AVALANCHE during that time. Just that, he wasn't thinking about "romance".

 

[Vendel]

when someone says "i have a problem with the clerith is canon theory" i can't mind read and assume they only mean one specific POV

excuuuuuse me princess

As far as I know you are one of the very few people who seriously pushes the "both Clerith and Cloti are canon" idea.

So I'm not sure why you would assume anyone would be talking about your headcanon unless they specifically address it.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Anastar. Hi. I'm Tres. You might remember me from such posts as the one where you got called a cunt, and numerous other instances of correcting your lies.

Tres

Tres. I'm Anastar. I remember you accusing me of lies, yes. Thing is, those "lies" are all in your imagination. Hey, if you think I've lied to you - it's your problem, not mine.

No, dear, you being a pathological liar is very much your own problem. In fact, because I'm so sick of your bullshit, I'm going to waste my time and put together all (if possible) of your lies from the past 100 pages of this thread.

I'll do that at the end of this post, though.

You might also remember me from that last private message I sent you, where I specifically asked that you wait until you could reply to everything I've said to you all at once -- so that we wouldn't have to continue with what basically amounts to sending messages backwards and forwards across time to one another.

Hmmm... let's look at what you actually said:

By the way, take your time responding to these and the three previous posts I sent. There's no need to rush, and I'd rather you just wait to get to them all at once. ~Tres, PM on Oct. 27

I see nothing specifically saying that I should respond to your PMs all at once.

"I'd rather you just wait to get to them all at once." I ... have no snarky follow-up. Just read the fucking sentence.

To me, your PM says not to rush because I can respond to it all at once if I want to.

Canon vs. fanon, deary.

Guess where your interpretation falls.

In any case, since you've disregarded that request and have taken your dishonest debating tactics to absurd new depths

If you see it that way, you see it that way. Frankly, I think the situation is the reverse. The only poor and/or dishonest debating tactics I see in this thread is on the Cloti side of the fence. But whatever...

"Whatever" indeed, seeing as you won't point to any examples. In fact, generalizations is all you made in this entire post I'm responding to.

That's two posts from you to me now in which you didn't address any of the actual arguments on the table.

Mostly, however, I just see insults thrown at me in an apparent effort to evade responding to me.

Like Ryu said, there might be insults in the mix, but the stew is direct response every single time.

So, now we're back to the relationship charts from the U20 Character guide again.

Seeing as how I haven't brought it up to you before, I don't see why not.

Ah, let's go ahead and get to one of those lies of yours right now, why don't we?:

Okay. I don't want to get into an LT debate here, so I'll respond to your paragraphs in our Response thread.

The only thing I'll say here is that if you consider those screenshots and script to show a definite love relationship between Cloud and Tifa, then why does the 20th Anniversary Ultimania (the same book) also say there is no canon couple for FFVII?

FFVII Relationship Chart - 20th Anniversary Ultimania

In other words, SE obviously doesn't consider what you've cited to be sufficient evidence to determine which couple is canon, since Cloud and Tifa are not shown as FFVII's canon couple in the same book's relationship chart. So why do you?

(BTW, the screenshots in this scan are way too dark to see clearly. Is there a better scan?)

Source: http://s8.zetaboards.com/Cloud_x_Aerith/single/?p=294512&t=530394

That's what we (i.e. the dictionary, reality, etc.) call a lie, honey.

That's also one of your many inaccuracies (it ain't the same damn book), which I brought up in the very post you're responding to.

Oh, and don't try editing anything. I already screenshotted that shit.

You're going to scream from the rooftops that the "childhood friends" description on FFVII's chart tells us all there is to know about Cloud and Tifa's relationship.

No, actually I was going to ask why they're being described as "childhood friends" when you're claiming that SE has validated them as a couple?

Let's ask Wakka and Lulu. Wait, they're busy fucking. We should come back later.

And meanwhile, you're going to avoid the question and retreat into supposed parallels with other couples from other Final Fantasies.

And meanwhile, you're going to avoid the question and retreat into supposed parallels with other couples from other Final Fantasies.

I directly addressed the question, as I have more than once before now. I pointed out that FF couples don't have to be portrayed with "suki" arrows on charts in order to be canon.

There's one big, major difference between CidxShera, DaggerxZidane, LuluxWakka, and Cloud and Tifa. The difference is that CidxShera, DaggerxZidane, and LuluxWakka have been confirmed as couples on a non-optional basis. This is not true of Cloud and Tifa, and that's why they are the supposed "exception".

This really qualifies as another lie since you're ignoring not only that the "For the One I Love" page doesn't speak of optionality, but that the entire 10th Anniversary Ultimania for FFVII doesn't speak of affection ratings, and explicitly includes the high affection version of the Highwind scene in its summary of events.

But, then, you've repeated that particular lie about the "For the One I Love" page saying everything is optional countless times in this thread, and there's no way I can hunt them all down.

Focus on the commercial? I don't think so. After all, I gave you a whole essay about supporting evidence for CloudxAerith:

http://clerith.heliohost.org/ClerithEssay.htm

That essay is 6,980 words long. The total amount of words in that essay about the commercial is 247. That means that there are 6,733 words in the essay about evidence other than the commercial. So is the commercial a focus? Hardly.

You've come back to it frequently in this thread. It's a cornerstone of your claims.

As for your essay, you still owe Ryu a response about it. He paid you the courtesy of responding to that entire thing and you've not even acknowledged him.

Plus, you're trying to get me to defend CloudxAerith, which I consider simply another evasion tactic from you.

There's a word called "debate" you need to look up. Defend your position.

I've already said I'm here to discuss ONE thing:

The TLS article about "This Just In: The Love Triangle Debate - Over" is nothing but your opinion. There is no confirmation from SE that Cloud and Tifa are the official couple of FFVII. The FTOIL page is saying that CloudxTifa as well as CloudxAerith are optional, which is why BOTH women are shown on the FTOIL page with Cloud and why BOTH are specified as optional.

Another lie. Both aren't specified as optional on the "For the One I Love" page.

But, as said, you've stated this particular lie many times now, and I won't be able to find all the instances even if I try.

I know you disagree - but I say it again because you should NOT be claiming that your opinion is fact when it has not been validated by SE.

What do you think you're doing? For that matter, you keep spouting off your opinion about the "For the One I Love" page as fact ("which is why BOTH women ..." etc.). Where's that press release from SE saying "This is why BOTH women ..." etc.?

And you seem to ignore the fact that I do not care what you think about CloudxAerith. I've never claimed that CloudxAerith are canon.

LMFAO

Hang on. I'm going to need a bigger typeface.

LMFAO

That's still not big enough, but it'll have to do.

Holy shit, woman. That might be your biggest lie ever. Which I can easily prove to be a lie by closing my eyes and letting my hand fall on damn near anything you've ever posted to the Internet.

Here's a random example:

Tifa was never said to be Cloud's koibito either. Cloud only called Tifa his "nakama", but not his "koibito."

And yes, Aerith was described as Cloud's koibito here:

[Note: though it appears to be a broken image now, the quoted post contained a screenshot from the old FFVII commercial where the word "Love" pops up]


Source: http://thelifestream.net/forums/showpost.php?p=373882&postcount=1809

Were Aerith described as Cloud's koibito, that would make CloudxAerith canon, since we already know he's hers. You're insistent on this commercial SE had no hand in making being relevant, if not definitive.

The "koibito" quote in the Reunion Files only says that Tifa is LIKE a mother and LIKE a koibito. She's not really a mother, is she? She's just LIKE one. So, she's not really a sweetheart, either.

For someone who's admitted having no knowledge of the Japanese language, you sure like to act like an expert on it. It's been explained countless times that Nomura uses three separate grammatically complete clauses in that sentence -- one in which he refers to Tifa as "like a mother," one in which he says she is an ally in battle, and one in which he says she is a koibito.

Here's a thorough explanation that you've probably already ignored before:

While on the subject of the word "koibito," it's been used in reference to Tifa before as well, in the Advent Children Reunion Files book (pg. 19). There, Nomura said, "There are many dimensions to Tifa's character. She's like a mother, a sweetheart [koibito], and a close ally in battle":

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v132/Squall_of_Seed/tifa-1.jpg

A more accurate translation than that printed in English in the book would be, "Various positions come together in Tifa. She's also like a mother, is also a koibito, and is also a close ally in battle."

The Japanese sentences ("Tifa wa ironna tachiba wo awase motte irun desu ne. Haha no you demo ari, koibito demo ari, isshou ni tatakatte kita senyuu demo aru") contain separate thought endings for each noun Tifa's identified as. The presence of "demo ari" -- meaning "is also" -- indicates the end to a complete thought, so Tifa is only described with "like a" for "like a mother."

"No you" -- meaning "like" -- would need to be before each use of "demo ari" in order for Tifa to also be "like a koibito" and "like a close ally in battle." She simply *is* identified as "also" ("demo") being those things.

And like Ryu asked, how the hell does it make sense to claim that she is "like an ally in battle"? That's something she plainly is.

Convenient how you left that out of your little "like a" spiel.

Furthermore, there's nothing even hinting that it has anything to do with Cloud. Cloud's name isn't used in the sentence. You're just assuming it's in reference to Cloud.

Funny that you bring up Cloud here, considering that I didn't. All I did was mention that if you had your way and "koibito" always implied mutuality, then you'd have to square with the Reunion Files quote from Nomura where he said she's someone's koibito. In which case whoever she loves would have to love her back.

But you'd never insist that "koibito" must imply mutual feelings, right?

Anyway, no, I'm not assuming shit about Cloud. I'm reasoning that it's in reference to Cloud, which is exactly the opposite of assuming.

You won't even do as much as offer an assumption. You obstinantly refuse to even address who Tifa could be a koibito to, with this role being so significant as to be described alongside her like a mother-status to Denzel and Marlene, and her ally-status to the rest of AVALANCHE.

You know, the roles she has in the movie that the book is about.

You'll insist that the counterintuitive meaning you derived from a hyperbolic, misleading advertisement produced 14 years ago by the marketing department of another company's foreign subsidiary is a more insightful indication of the intentions of FFVII's developers than a score of statements to have come since from SE and the game's developers.

Keep ignoring the fact that I provided plenty of other examples from FFVII's developers that provide evidence for CloudxAerith.

Clearly I'm the one in this discussion who doesn't address the points people bring up. No, it couldn't be you, what with the not addressing the points I brought up there.

And you'll do all of this without even recognizing that the position you're putting forward is inconsistent with the position of neutrality and open-ended optionality that you claim to hold.

All because I'm saying that SE has left the LT up to interpretation, and that SE has yet to declare either Cloti or Clerith canon. All because I dare to disagree with your opinion. Go figure.

I don't give a shit if you disagree with my opinion on its own count. Anyone here I've had any degree of discussion with can tell you I've admitted to being wrong plenty of times -- but that was when evidence to demonstrate that I was wrong was presented.

Were Steele still around instead of in a self-imposed exile due to repulsion at the Compilation, he could even tell you how I conceded that the Puppet Master Theory (in the years prior to AC's release, it was a popular/infamous theory that JENOVA was the one really in control, rather than Seph) was wrong. And I was a hell of a lot more emotionally invested in that theory than I am in ... well, any other fan theory the FF fandom has had, with the exception of shutting down the Rinoa=Ultimecia theory.

I didn't flail my arms and legs and hold onto the doorframe as I was dragged out into the light of truth. I said, "Oh. Well, darn. Looks like you were right, man. Congrats." I'm paraphrasing of course (I don't remember exactly how I phrased that six years ago), but those were the sentiments I expressed.

You're the one demonstrating all the characteristics described in #5 here:

http://www.cracked.com/article_1946...-that-make-you-wrong-more-than-you-think.html






Anyway, let's get to that list of your other lies now.

For the record, I won't count inaccuracies about screenshots and details of the stories (e.g. when you called a direct screenshot from FFVII a photoshop; somehow missed a door in an ACC screenshot that occupied a good 20% of the frame; somehow missed a nightstand in yet another ACC screenshot; said Denzel and Marlene were at home when the Turks carried Cloud and Tifa there) as lies. These may just be you remembering things wrong or having trouble seeing.

I do hope, by the way, that those folks who left the debate after getting offended on your behalf see this and realize what a horrible person they were defending.

Anastar's lies

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First, I've never heard Aerith referred to as Cloud's "nakama".

Source: http://thelifestream.net/forums/showpost.php?p=372939&postcount=1727

Why it's a lie: from the very post you were responding to there --

You're saying one can't be both someone else's nakama and their koibito? That is a huge claim you will need to substantiate. It isn't true.

Also, Aerith is called Cloud's nakama too. Off the top of my head, I know her Reunion Files profile calls her this. Seems like her 10th AU profile and the Dissidia Ultimania's "Link to the Original" section for FFVII does too.

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No, Tifa calls it "your room" in CoT - not "your office" - when she tells him to go "drink in your room". Sounds like he sleeps there to me.

Tifa tells him to go drink in another room. She does not say "your room." There is no possessive article. You know this. You've been told this countless times.

Actually, no I haven't - this is the first time I've been told that. I'm beginning to think you've got me confused with someone else, especially since we always got along just fine before I came here.

Its been said multiple times in this very thread. If you have limitations that caused you to miss it, then that sucks for you. Though I am almost certain that it was said in direct replies to you at least once, so unless I am wrong that excuse is out too.

No, it hasn't been mentioned in direct replies to me before this.

Sources: http://thelifestream.net/forums/showpost.php?p=370478&postcount=1434

http://thelifestream.net/forums/showpost.php?p=370686&postcount=1462

Why it's a lie: you knew. I brought it up in my debate with FFG that you made sure was posted on record at CxA (you posted it there yourself).

Source: http://s8.zetaboards.com/Cloud_x_Aerith/topic/530757/1/

Also, Lady Lifestream mentioned it in a direct reply to you after you told her she should go read that debate:

I´ve already read all those debates. ...Took me a week though. It was SO funny how he nitpicked about CoT and if Tifa and Cloud shared a room or not.

SoS: "The Japanese script says only "drink in room". It isn´t specificated if it´s his or hers."

FF_G: "Yes, but the official Englisch translation says "Drink in your room"."

Source: http://s8.zetaboards.com/Cloud_x_Aerith/single/?p=319976&t=531296

And I know you read her post, because the very next post in the thread is from you, with you responding to parts of that post.

Source: http://s8.zetaboards.com/Cloud_x_Aerith/single/?p=319986&t=531296
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Second
In the Reunion Files, Nomura says that one of Tifa's roles is that of a koibito. Even if you refuse to admit that it's referring to Cloud, given your insistence otherwise that koibito implies mutual feelings, if Tifa's somebody's koibito, Nomura should damn well know what the status of Cloud and Tifa's relationship is.

FACT: it does not say that she's a koibito to ANYONE. Therefore, you cannot assign that role to anyone that you want to. SE has to do that.

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Source: http://thelifestream.net/forums/showpost.php?p=374413&postcount=1831

Why it's a lie: you have to be desired by someone to be a koibito (which means "desired person").
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Not to mention you're still pointing to a scene that simply does not exist.

And which scene is this? The Low Affection version of the Highwind scene? How can you say it doesn't exist when the script for it is given in the FFVII UO? You told us that the scripts for both versions were given in the FFVII UO when you visited the CxA Forum:

What you just described is the high affection version and the low affection version. That's all there is.

Again, the Ultimania Omega (pg. 201) provides the script for both versions, and the high affection version doesn't have more than one reaction for Tifa. That one reaction is "Were you watching?" followed by crumbling to the floor. ~TresDias, Nov 20, 2009
Source: http://s8.zetaboards.com/Cloud_x_Aer...97495&t=529440

Didn't you say that the script being available means that version is canon?

Source: http://thelifestream.net/forums/showpost.php?p=374413&postcount=1831

Why it's a lie: quote mine (details here: http://thelifestream.net/forums/showpost.php?p=374880&postcount=1854), plus I have never said that a script existing for something makes it canon. That's fucking retarded.
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Oh, but I did find this from the FFVII UO:
http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/f...sivescenes.jpg

It's the Impressive Scenes pages, and you forgot to mention that Aerith's death scene is there, too. You know, the part where Cloud is holding a dead Aerith in his arms and saying, "What are we going to do?" I always thought that it would be rather weird for Cloud to say "we" to mean "Avalanche" because Avalanche didn't know about Holy until Disk Two. So it's more likely that Cloud means "me and Aerith" when he says, "we". Then there's the pic of Cloud laying Aerith into the water during the funeral. Ye know, the same pic they used in the commercial with the caption "Love" over it:

The same scene which was re-enacted in AC/ACC, so I'd say it has some significance.

Source: http://thelifestream.net/forums/showpost.php?p=374413&postcount=1831

Why it's a lie: I mentioned it nearly two years ago, and even provided a scan of the page. Also, mention of it has been in my FFVII Plot Analysis FAQ for just as long.

You also got the book wrong. That was the FF 20th Anniversary Ultimania File 2: Scenario guide, not the FFVII UO.
---------------------------------------------

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You're ignoring two other quotes from Nomura that contradict your claim of what he said there.

Know why I'm ignoring them? You're the first person to PM those quotes to me. The only parts of this thread I read are the posts sent to me in PM. If you don't send it to me in PM, then I don't read it.

Source: http://thelifestream.net/forums/showpost.php?p=374413&postcount=1831

Why it's a lie: you've known about the Reunion Files quote for years. Easily proven in numerous ways. Most satisfying one would probably be to point to that post of yours from a couple of weeks ago where you mentioned it:

If the word "koibito" on its own does not indicate that a relationship has been established, then why do you think its use in RF means that Tifa is in a relationship?

Source: http://thelifestream.net/forums/showpost.php?p=370478&postcount=1434

There's also that thread at CxA where you and others discussed that first LTD essay I wrote (which talked about the RF quote):

http://s8.zetaboards.com/Cloud_x_Aerith/topic/530394/1/
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According to Cloti's before the publication of CoLWhite, "koibito" always meant lover, sweetheart, boy/girlfriend - mutual attraction. Even your translator Vilaeth said so. Funny how the meaning has conveniently changed once CoLWhite got published.

I know very little about Japanese, but Vilaeth always told us that "koibito" meant the feelings were mutual. And even a simple translator tool says that it means mutual - here's the translation of koibito from Google translations:
http://translate.google.com/?hl=en&tab=wT#ja|en|%E6%81%8B%E4%BA%BA

The first three definitions are: lover, sweetheart, paramour (lover) - all mean mutual love

That's the definition I always heard Cloti's use - including Vilaeth and Ryu - before CoLWhite got published.

Source: http://thelifestream.net/forums/showpost.php?p=371824&postcount=1656

Why it's a lie: 'cause hito never fucking said that. Easily proven: http://thelifestream.net/forums/showpost.php?p=1217&postcount=87

Ryu also said that it can mean "beloved" prior to the publiation of that novella: http://killthemongoose.com/tnc/index.php?topic=514.msg14735#msg14735
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At any rate, you are choosing the translation of "beloved" for Case of Lifestream:White out of four possible translations. "Koibito" can also mean "lover, sweetheart, boyfriend/girlfriend". Since there is no official translation, it could just as easily be translated as "Cloud is the woman's friend, lover" or "Cloud is the woman's friend, sweetheart" or "Cloud is the woman's friend, boyfriend" If any one of those translations is the official translation, then it means the feeling between Cloud and Aerith is mutual, not one-sided.

"Koibito" has a specific meaning in that it identifies someone who is desired by another. That is its meaning. It can be translated (which is to say interpreted, depending on the context) as "beloved," "lover," "girlfriend"/"boyfriend" or "sweetheart," yes -- but its actual meaning remains "one who is desired by another" and any of those other words are a translator's choice for best conveying their understanding of the context.

On its own, it doesn't inherently entail reciprocity, though. Ever. Even in the case of the Reunion Files quote, reciprocity can only be said to be entailed because of Tifa's own otherwise confirmed feelings.

Well, this quote from Vilaeth says otherwise:

Then, of course, koi--bito (Though in the Reunion Files and not the Ultimania.) I've asked several people, Japanese people who I asked in Japanese and they answered in Japanese, about this word and its usage and have never heard this 'one-sided' thing that gets tossed around. It's basically, if you hear this, people are going to assume that it's mutual and that there's two people involved there (since the word itself is talking about the object of affection, not the person doting the affection). And for Tifa, the only one who really makes any sense is Cloud.
Source: http://thelifestream.net/forums/showpost.php?p=1217&postcount=87

Source: http://thelifestream.net/forums/showpost.php?p=372939&postcount=1727

Why it's a lie: it's a quote mine. The next paragraph of hito's post there is in line with exactly what I said:

Then, of course, koi--bito (Though in the Reunion Files and not the Ultimania.) I've asked several people, Japanese people who I asked in Japanese and they answered in Japanese, about this word and its usage and have never heard this 'one-sided' thing that gets tossed around. It's basically, if you hear this, people are going to assume that it's mutual and that there's two people involved there (since the word itself is talking about the object of affection, not the person doting the affection). And for Tifa, the only one who really makes any sense is Cloud.

Not to say that's always the case, since emotions are a subjective thing. You can think to yourself, "hey, Billy's my koibito" while Billy might be all "woah, back off woman". However, we aren't talking about what Tifa thinks herself. Because this was Nomura, talking about a fictional character in the third person.

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Nomura even said he chose to film the ending in Hawaii because the flowers surrounding the road are the same color as the flowers in Aerith's church.

Source: http://thelifestream.net/forums/showpost.php?p=372747&postcount=1717

Nomura even said they went to film that part in Hawaii because there were large fields of yellow and white flowers like the ones in Aerith's church. So Cloud is surrounded by Aerith - Tifa is nothing more than a sideline, so to speak.

Source: http://thelifestream.net/forums/showpost.php?p=368353&postcount=1180

In keeping with the notion that Cloud is in the live action world in the end, we filmed the video for the ending credits in Hawaii. There are fields of flowers on both sides of the road, and the colors - yellow and white - are the same as the flowers in Aerith's church. ~Nomura, Reunion Files, pg. 87

Source: http://thelifestream.net/forums/showpost.php?p=370974&postcount=1485

Why it's a lie: quote mine. Anastar ignores Nomura's full quote --

In keeping with the notion that Cloud is in the live action world in the end, we filmed the video for the ending credits in Hawaii. There are fields of flowers on both sides of the road, and the colors - yellow and white - are the same as the flowers in Aerith's church.

I wanted to have the sea lying beyond the horizon, and this was the best place. The actual filming took place a year before the release. When the release got pushed back, some of us wanted to go back and film it again. Big Surprise (Laughs).

Nomura filmed in Hawaii because he wanted the sea beyond the horizon. The flowers were a coincedence they worked in.
---------------------------------------------

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Fact is, Aerith is always with Cloud. That was explained in Distance, when Nomura said that Aerith's consciousness lives on inside of Cloud. What that means is that Cloud and Aerith are inseparable. They are like soul mates, a fact which is also demonstrated in FFVII when Cloud is able to sense Aerith's presence in the Forgotten City.

Amazing revelation straight from SE, folks! Marlene and Tifa are Aerith's other soul mates!

Along with Cloud!

'Cause they can all sense her!

Now, how's that for a foursome?

That might be relevant if SE had shown that Marlene and Tifa could actually see Aerith like Cloud can, and if SE had shown that Marlene and Tifa could talk and touch Aerith like Cloud can, and if SE had shown that Tifa could sense Aerith's presence in the Forgotten City like Cloud did, and if SE had said that Tifa and Aerith had a special bond like Cloud and Aerith. In fact, SE said that Cloud and Aerith had a special bond that was different than Cloud and Tifa's:

Nevertheless, it is not hard to imagine that she [Tifa] carries complex feelings as a woman toward Aerith, who had built up a special bond with Cloud that was different from Tifa’s. ~Tifa's character profile, 10th Anniversary Ultimania

Cloud is not alone in his ability to sense, see, hear or touch Aerith. She seems able to appear to, touch and communicate with whomever she wishes.

Kadaj sees her as he's dying, and takes her hand. Two children in the church scene at the end of AC/C see her and speak with her. Marlene senses her at the beginning of Cloud and Sephiroth's final battle. Tifa senses her at the end of the battle.

Aerith calls everyone in Edge who has a telephone for God's sake.

Also, in the staff commentary on the Japanese AC DVD, Nomura thought of including the scene where Tifa senses Aerith's presence to demonstrate "the link between Tifa and Aerith"?:

http://ffviinovels.lhyeung.net/ffacinfo/commentary.php

So they have a special bond too.
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Nomura: I believe, for those who formerly traveled with her as comrades and for the viewers, each carries their own feelings and loves for Aerith. In this story, Cloud also carries his own undying feeling for Aerith even to this very day. ~Nomura interview; Dengeki Playstation 2007

Source: http://thelifestream.net/forums/showpost.php?p=370974&postcount=1485

Why it's a lie: quote mine, wrong magazine and wrong year. Full quote contains two more lines: "Its relation to the church scene is.... Yeah. I'll leave this to everyone's imagination. (laughs)"

It was actually said by Nomura in the issue of Famitsu PS2 released on October 24, 2003, and is not a post-AC/C quote as Anastar has tried to peddle it for years. The quote came about a month after the 2003 Tokyo Game Show trailers that unveiled AC's existence to the world, and at the time Nomura said that, the only church scene we had been shown was Cloud walking through the pews. In the released film, we learned that this is the scene where Cloud finds Tifa after she has been beaten by Loz. It's also one of the appearances by the wolf that symbolizes Cloud's feelings of guilt.

That was the undying feeling Nomura was talking about: guilt. The wolf appears in that scene.

Sources: http://ff7ac.hotcafe.to/magazine/magazine03.html

http://www.enterbrain.co.jp/product/.../03003520.html

Japanese text of the quote:

エアリスはかつてともに旅をした仲間で、受け手側の皆さんにも、それぞれの愛情や想いがあると思います。この物語のクラウドも、エアリスに対して、いまもなお死なぬ想いは あると・・・・。この教会の場面との関係は・・・・・うーん。このあたりは皆さんのご想像におまかせします（笑）。

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In addition, Cloud had also gone away to the church that Aerith had been in. The thing which [Tifa] is unable to hide in her irritation towards Cloud is the fact that he isn’t merely dragging the past around, but because that reason might perhaps be related to Aerith. ~Tifa's character profile, 10th Anniversary Ultimania

Source: http://thelifestream.net/forums/showpost.php?p=370974&postcount=1485

Why it's a lie: another quote mine. The rest of the quotation explains that Tifa's complicated feelings stem from Aerith being related to Cloud's guilt and self-isolation:

Tifa’s complicated feelings continue even in AC, two years after Aerith had departed the world. This was due to the fact that Cloud, succumbing to the notion that Aerith’s death was his fault and condemning himself, construed that Denzel was “the child which Aerith brought here” and took care of him. In addition, Cloud had also gone away to the church that Aerith had been in. The thing which she is unable to hide in her irritation towards Cloud is the fact that he isn’t merely dragging the past around, but because that reason might perhaps be related to Aerith.

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And I'm tired now, and hungry. I have to give up.

I must admit, Anastar, you finally found a way to beat me. I can't keep track of all the lies you've told.



EDIT: Added some more. Still can't keep up with them all, though.

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And why are we saying for sure that Cloud and Tifa have separate bedrooms? Did someone prove that Cloud sleeps in his office yet?

I didn't say they had separate bedrooms for sure.

Source: http://thelifestream.net/forums/showpost.php?p=375307&postcount=1897

Why it's a lie: you've said that many times --

Sorry, I don't consider a story summary to be enough evidence. It needs to happen in the actual game or movie or novella before I believe it. The trouble with your story summary evidence is that what happens in the game/movie/novella can contradict what you accept as canon, such as Cloud having a separate bedroom.

Source: http://thelifestream.net/forums/showpost.php?p=370228&postcount=1407

And like I said before, your idea of "canon" is contradicted by other things, such as quotes in both the U20 on page 232 and on page 198 in the FFVIIUO where it says that the story diverges into two conditions according to Tifa's affection level with Cloud. It's also contradicted by things such as Cloud and Tifa having separate bedrooms in CoT, and Tifa not knowing whether Cloud loves her in CoT.

Source: http://thelifestream.net/forums/showpost.php?p=368353&postcount=1180

I said nothing about rejection. I said that they don't have interest in one another romantically. That's backed up by things like Cloud sleeping in a separate room and being invited into the family by Marlene.

Source: http://thelifestream.net/forums/showpost.php?p=373637&postcount=1788
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TLS presents absolutely no perspective on the LTD from the Clerith point of view. Yet, TLS calls itself a neutral site for all fans.

Source: http://thelifestream.net/forums/showpost.php?p=374846&postcount=1850

Why it's a lie: because there is a Clerith-based LTD analysis on the site --

http://thelifestream.net/final-fantasy-vii/6218/now-for-something-new-user-submitted-editorials/

TLS accepts user-submitted editorials.
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Okay so

According to Cloti's before the publication of CoLWhite, "koibito" always meant lover, sweetheart, boy/girlfriend - mutual attraction. Even your translator Vilaeth said so. Funny how the meaning has conveniently changed once CoLWhite got published.

Did you mean sometimes here instead of always? That's a pretty big difference in word choice. And the last line seems to say you're ragging on Hito for flip flopping which he never did.

And how dare you say I was ragging on Hito? How can I be ragging on Hito when I'm agreeing with him?!?

Where exactly did I say that Hito flip flopped? All I quoted was Hito saying that the meaning of "koibito" is usually "lover, sweetheart" or "boy/girlfriend".

Source: http://thelifestream.net/forums/showpost.php?p=374846&postcount=1850

Why it's a lie: it's right there in the portion quoted by Quexinos. Anastar had said this about hito (he used to go by "Vilaeth"): "According to Cloti's before the publication of CoLWhite, 'koibito' always meant lover, sweetheart, boy/girlfriend - mutual attraction. Even your translator Vilaeth said so. Funny how the meaning has conveniently changed once CoLWhite got published."
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For your information, it was Quex who kept translating the word "tanpaku" as "apathetic". I always said that "candid" made more sense.

Source: http://thelifestream.net/forums/showpost.php?p=374413&postcount=1831

Why it's a lie: Que explained why herself better than I could --

Okay, now in all seriousness Anastar, what did I do to you to deserve being on the other end of your lies? I've been trying to help you and you here and you go and tell a lie about me? Maybe you're trying to attack my credibility with translations and... well you don't need to, we all know I suck at it

Look here:

http://s8.zetaboards.com/Cloud_x_Aer...23113&t=531419

When I posted TRES's translation saying it was "candid" and ends short, you said "I disagree, I've always seen apathetic."

So this
For your information, it was Quex who kept translating the word "tanpaku" as "apathetic". I always said that "candid" made more sense.

Is a lie. And you're using CHIBICA's translation of that line BTW, not mine.

Afterwards I even said to you:
Actually I didn't do these translations, I think Tres did. But the word used for "apathetic" or "candid" is tanpaku, which is basically a way of saying it's indifferent, plain or simple, so really I think either word works. It's blah, I think is the point

http://www.nihongodict.com/w/57740/tanpaku/

Full topic here:
http://s8.zetaboards.com/Cloud_x_Aerith/topic/531419/1/

Source: http://thelifestream.net/forums/showpost.php?p=374421&postcount=1833
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[Dashell]

that's pretty much what you're implying by saying cloud is a douche for living with a girl that likes him

but if you wanna clarify go right ahead

any particular reason you didn't bring up the rest of the quote, including him stringing her along? Loving one of his children more than the other? Or making Tifa pay for his items with her work when he hardly ever stays there? I'm kind of curious as to why you left those out since, you know, that would anyone seem kinda like an ass.

So, now we're back to the relationship charts from the U20 Character guide again.

Seeing as how I haven't brought it up to you before, I don't see why not.

Ah, let's go ahead and get to one of those lies of yours right now, why don't we?:

I think she meant brought it up HERE but...


EDIT:

LMFAO

Hang on. I'm going to need a bigger typeface.

LMFAO

That's still not big enough, but it'll have to do.

That better?

 

[Master Bates]

http://www.cracked.com/article_1946...-that-make-you-wrong-more-than-you-think.html

I enjoyed reading your gigantic post, good sir, but where would you categorize the phantom Clotis? And aren't #'s 1 and 5 basically the same?

Oh my! This post is totally irrelevant, what to do?! what to do?! Oh yeah, Clerith is cano---wait wat?

spare me

Oh hell! I have to make this relevant.

I think she meant brought it up HERE but...

The posts:

So, now we're back to the relationship charts from the U20 Character guide again.

Seeing as how I haven't brought it up to you before, I don't see why not.

you = Tres

Now I may not be understanding things here, but I don't take that as something limited to TLS, but as to their debate history as a whole. And IIRC, I think they (Anastar, FFG, perhaps even Shrouded and Tres) had already tackled this before. But then, I have bad memory so I could be wrong.

 

[Dashell]

Okay I'm going to play devil's advocate here just because, well I honestly feel at this point that somebody has to. Sorry about the formatting but I don't feel like going through and doing it correctly since plan ol quoting doesn't work.

Anastar wrote: First, I've never heard Aerith referred to as Cloud's "nakama".

Source: http://thelifestream.net/forums/show...postcount=1727

Why it's a lie: from the very post you were responding to there --

I wrote: You're saying one can't be both someone else's nakama and their koibito? That is a huge claim you will need to substantiate. It isn't true.

Also, Aerith is called Cloud's nakama too. Off the top of my head, I know her Reunion Files profile calls her this. Seems like her 10th AU profile and the Dissidia Ultimania's "Link to the Original" section for FFVII does too.

You said: "Aerith is called Cloud's nakama" and she was saying, in response to you, "I had never heard that before." She's not saying she never heard it at all, she's saying she didn't hear it before you brought it up.

Anastar wrote:

Ariadne wrote: Second
In the Reunion Files, Nomura says that one of Tifa's roles is that of a koibito. Even if you refuse to admit that it's referring to Cloud, given your insistence otherwise that koibito implies mutual feelings, if Tifa's somebody's koibito, Nomura should damn well know what the status of Cloud and Tifa's relationship is.

FACT: it does not say that she's a koibito to ANYONE. Therefore, you cannot assign that role to anyone that you want to. SE has to do that.

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Source: http://thelifestream.net/forums/show...postcount=1831

Why it's a lie: you have to be desired by someone to be a koibito (which means "desired person").

Her argument is that she's not said to be a koibito to anyone, so you can't just say it's Cloud. She's not saying that she isn't a koibito to anyone, but that we don't know who it is (even though we do )

Anastar wrote:

Ariadne wrote: You're ignoring two other quotes from Nomura that contradict your claim of what he said there.

Know why I'm ignoring them? You're the first person to PM those quotes to me. The only parts of this thread I read are the posts sent to me in PM. If you don't send it to me in PM, then I don't read it.

Source: http://thelifestream.net/forums/show...postcount=1831

Why it's a lie: you've known about the Reunion Files quote for years. Easily proven in numerous ways. Most satisfying one would probably be to point to that post of yours from a couple of weeks ago where you mentioned it:

You wrote: If the word "koibito" on its own does not indicate that a relationship has been established, then why do you think its use in RF means that Tifa is in a relationship?

Source: http://thelifestream.net/forums/show...postcount=1434

There's also that thread at CxA where you and others discussed that first LTD essay I wrote (which talked about the RF quote):

http://s8.zetaboards.com/Cloud_x_Aerith/topic/530394/1/

Her point was that she hadn't seen anyone bring up the points in THIS topic so she didn't respond. You were the first one to PM her those quotes in this topic. She's not saying she didn't know of them.



Don't really have an explanation for the others, I'll leave that to her, but at least those ones I pointed out didn't really seem like lies to me.

 

[Fairheartstrife]

Because I've seen it come up a few times recently...

Cait's Compatibility Prediction:

Aerith
"Hmm, let's see how compatible Cloud and I are!"

(Tifa turns away.)

Cait Sith
"That'll cost ya. Exactly one date!"

(She turns back)

Cait Sith
"Here I go!"

(Cait Sith does his fortune-telling dance, then stops hopping and faces
away.)

Cait Sith
"This isn't good. I can't say it."
"Poor Tifa."

(Tifa turns away. Aerith runs over to Cait Sith)

Aerith
"No! Tell me!"
"I promise I won't get mad!"

(Tifa turns back around. Cait Sith turns to Aerith and starts hopping)

Cait Sith
"Is that so? Then I'll tell you."
"Looks good. You are perfect for each other!"
"Aerith's star and Cloud's star! They show a great future!"
"Cloud, I'll be your matchmaker, preacher... I'll do whatever
you want me to!"
"You just call me when it all happens!"

---------------------------------------------------------------------
SE declares Cait's predictions bogus, but let's assume, for argument's sake, that there is merit to them.... Here's the thing that a lot of Cleriths seem to be forgetting... At this point in the game Cloud is still Zack!Cloud. We've been told numerous times—and by Cloud himself—that his personality is an ILLUSION that he created based off of Zack. So... Cait, checking compatibility says that Zack!Cloud and Aerith are perfect matches. Gee, I wonder why? Cleriths can feel free to try and say Cait's compatibility reading is valid, but in doing so they simply validate Zerith. (Please note the 'one date reference')

If they want to try and argue that it's not personality but their 'stars' that Cait reads, then I call bollocks on the whole thing based on the fallacy of horoscopes and they should be openly mocked for legitimizing something SE themselves have repeatedly undermined.

Also, Cait seems to think 'Poor Tifa' may have a problem with Aerith and Cloud hooking up. Really hard to argue disinterest with subtle hints like those slamming around.

You know who's compatible with Real!Cloud? Tifa. You know who told us that? Cloud. By choosing her to start his life with. He says those exact words: start a life. Not continue on as bffs, but start a new life TOGETHER, and I'm pretty sure he wasn't referring to 'location'.

Clerith doesn't exist. It's a fanon pairing with a loose basis of physical attraction between a flower girl that saw her ex-love in a messed up kid that thinks he's a SOLDIER. I know there are those that argue he loved both girls, and I think he was interested in Aerith, loved her as someone dear to him, but he was never 'in love' with her. It's just not supported, especially when one consider the HW scene and the fact that immediately after defeating Sephy Cloud is all blushing and wanting Tifa to have a life with him.

And, Zee, even in the hypothetical where Cloud sees Tifa as a bestie and not a love interest, he knows she loves him and wants his junk, so yes, even if he views her as his BFF and likes her as a friend it's still a giant suck-a-bag-of-dicks move to ask her to live with him because it's a complete and utter disregard of her feelings.

Last post for awhile as I am off for some weeks, bitches. I'll miss you and think about the LTD... probably not fucking once, but still, you know, good wishes and shit.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Okay I'm going to play devil's advocate here just because, well I honestly feel at this point that somebody has to. Sorry about the formatting but I don't feel like going through and doing it correctly since plan ol quoting doesn't work.



You said: "Aerith is called Cloud's nakama" and she was saying, in response to you, "I had never heard that before." She's not saying she never heard it at all, she's saying she didn't hear it before you brought it up.

Which is itself entirely unlikely.

Her argument is that she's not said to be a koibito to anyone, so you can't just say it's Cloud. She's not saying that she isn't a koibito to anyone, but that we don't know who it is (even though we do )

This one does not fly, since she argued the 'you can't use it to mean someone's beloved without specifying' angle when one of her forum members reported that 'her sensei' had told her that.
It ALSO doesn't fly, because she has no problem identifying the anonymous woman of COLW. It's a blatant double standard.

Her point was that she hadn't seen anyone bring up the points in THIS topic so she didn't respond. You were the first one to PM her those quotes in this topic. She's not saying she didn't know of them.

That DEFINITELY does not fly, because SHE brought the point up in the topic and then proceeded to ignore it when it suited her whim, so even if it is relegated EXCLUSIVELY to this topic, she's still wrong for IGNORING QUOTES SHE KNEW TO EXIST, for omitting them from her analysis. Saying 'Well, no one brought them up' is entirely a non-defense, since she already knew they existed.

And this is just the tip of the iceberg. There's rather constant misattribution of arguments- including attributing HER argument to TRES in one of the quoted reply, hers to you and you to hers, quote mining, quote twisting, red herrings galore (Especially RE: Deviations and canon), it's ridiculous.
She's tried to cut off half of a sentence and act like the first half is a complete thought modifying a different sentence entirely.
EVEN IF she wasn't guilty of these three counts of lying, she's definitely guilty of the other innumerable counts of it.