I'll finish answering Zealkin's questions first:
Zealkin
This all seems very confusing, so Tifa knows she will be rejected because she knows Cloud and Aerith are together and decides to deny her feelings again? Why does Tifa even live with Cloud?
I never said that Tifa knows she'll be rejected. What I said was that Tifa knows that it's not a good idea to get involved with Cloud right now because she knows he's in love with Aerith. So she tells Cloud in the LA scene that they will always be good friends and leaves it at that.
It's not that Tifa knows she will be rejected - it's that Tifa doesn't WANT a relationship with Cloud right now. Sometimes, regardless of your feelings for someone, you know that it's not a good idea to get involved with them.
Now, why would Tifa live with him? First of all, they ARE good friends. Second, she has noplace else to go. Third, she thinks Barret's going to live with them, so she's thinking it will be like the old Avalanche at the Seventh Heaven in Midgar. Fourth, she's hoping there's a chance that Cloud will grow to love her.
That's an interesting perspective, but CoT was said to have a lot of relationship problems between the two of them, and Tifa snapping probably had to do with the fact that she and the rest of her friends were all trying to move on, it seems kind of unfair to her that Cloud is wallowing when it was so hard for her and the other to move on themselves.
And this situation would be a good reason for relationship problems between the two of them.
As for her snapping at him being because Cloud is wallowing when the others try to move on - that's a possible interpretation, of course. But my interpretation is just as possible.
Can I see a quote indicating the scene went in this direction or something?
Which scene? The LA scene or the Tifa snapping scene?
If you mean the Tifa snapping scene, there's nothing about either interpretation. If you mean the LA scene, then:
After stopping Hojo from going amuck, the conversation with Tifa before they rush into the Northern Crater diverges into two conditions, according to Tifa's affection rating for Cloud. When the affection rating is low, the conversation in the scene where they spend the night will be apathetic and ends quickly. ~page 198, Final Fantasy VII Ultimania Omega
Look at the meaning of apathetic:
apathetic - adjective
1. having or showing little or no emotion: apathetic behavior.
2. not interested or concerned; indifferent or unresponsive: an apathetic audience.
Synonyms 1.
unfeeling, impassive, cool. 2.
uninterested,
unconcerned.
- Source:
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/apathetic
So the LA version shows they're not interested in each other romantically. Cloud, because he's still in love with Aerith. Tifa, because she knows it's not a good idea to get involved with Cloud right now.
Because if that's what went down, why even put Cloud and Tifa on the FTOIL page in the first place?
Because the FTOIL page says it's optional for Cloud to love Tifa. The page number at the top of the HW picture leads to a paragraph about how the conversation between Cloud and Tifa diverges into two conditions according to Tifa's affection level with Cloud.
So, Cloud CAN love Tifa, according to the HA version - optionally. But, in the LA version, Cloud's still in love with Aerith - optionally.
Hmm the first quote is about Tifa trying to move on from the past herself, and how she still is guilty about it, and how the film doesn't really go too much in depth about it(It's all about Cloud afterall)
The second talks about her strong character, and how this is allowing her to move on, which invariably raises the question, would a strong woman let herself be emotionally conflicted by a man like how you're describing?
Sorry, but I'm not sure where those quotes came from - I assume they're from someone else's post? I think that person's commenting on a page from the Reunion File's, but I'd like to know which page.
It's been said a few times, but Clouds feelings aren't optional
But I've also given you quotes where SE says that Cloud's feelings ARE optional:
Deviation - Two versions of the conversation before the final battle
Prior to the final battle, the contents of the conversation between Cloud and Tifa can change depending on the degree of Tifa's affection. ~page 232, Final Fantasy 20th Anniversary Ultimania
"If Tifa's affection regarding Cloud is high, when the two stay behind at the airship, they will confirm that their feelings of desire/wanting for one another match." ~Tifa's profile, FFVII UO
Before the Final Battle (divergence):
After stopping Hojo from going amuck, the conversation with Tifa before they rush into the Northern Crater diverges into two conditions, according to Tifa's affection rating with Cloud. ~page198, FFVII Ultimania Omega
Before the Final Battle:
Until they reunite with friends in the airship, the conversation in the scene that Cloud and Tifa spend the night in the meadow can be different according to the rating of Tifa’s affection to Cloud. ~page 201, FFVII Ultimania Omega
and the quote I provided earlier about them communicating their feelings is not optional
They communicated feelings in both the LA and HA versions of the HW scene. The feelings in the LA scene were feelings of friendship only and/or disinterest in a romantic relationship, while the feelings between them in the HA scene are romantic. If SE just says they "communicated feelings", that doesn't tell us
what kind of feelings - so it can easily apply to both versions.
nor is it talking about past feelings, like you said Tifa and Cloud didn't know each other that long in their childhood, and Tifa's feelings did not develop until later on. So the feelings are speaking of the ones they hold presently.
I think you're talking here about the Lifestream event again? "Nor is it talking about past feelings" - if you look at the Lifestream event, Cloud and Tifa are clearly talking about past feelings at that time.
Cloud "I only used to look up at it [Tifa's window] from outside."
Tifa "After you left town, I really thought about you a lot."
(She holds her face in her hands.)
"I used to wonder how Cloud was doing." "I wonder if Cloud was able to get into SOLDIER?"
....
Cloud "That was the first time I heard about Sephiroth." "If I got strong like Sephiroth, then everyone might..."
...
"If I could just get stronger...... Then even Tifa would have to notice me......"
Now, Cloud's feelings are clearly how Cloud felt in Nibelheim as a child. The FFVII UO also specifies that Tifa didn't have any interest in Cloud until he said he was going to try to join SOLDIER:
In those days, Tifa didn't take much notice to Cloud. The reason why she said to him "To be saved by a Hero" was only to satisfy her childish princess desire. ~Cloud's profile, FFVII Ultimania Omega
Even though Cloud was holding feelings for Tifa from some time ago, Tifa's interest in Cloud did not start until the time when the Promise was exchanged. It might have been her loneliness due to her surrounding friends leaving one after another, but more than that, it seems largely in part to him making the promise to become her hero. ~Cloud's profile, FFVII Ultimania Omega
So Tifa had no interest in Cloud until she learned that he was going to try to become a SOLDIER. There were other boys who called Tifa out to the well, too. There were other boys writing her love letters, too - one of those letters is on her desk in her room when you visit Nibelheim:
Cloud "I read it..." "It was a letter addressed to Tifa from the son of the guy that runs the General Store..."
....
"And most of all, how are you, Tifa? It feels like I haven't seen you for years." "We were all talking about you last night." "Everyone likes you. But because everyone idolizes you, I couldn't very well stab them in the back." "I always acted cool, but actually, I was just afraid of being jilted." "Wow, if I keep writing like this, this'll become a love letter!" "So, I think I'll stop here. Take care. I'll write again." "P.S. Write me back, okay?"
So Cloud wasn't the only boy with a crush on Tifa. The only thing that got her interested in Cloud was him going off to join SOLDIER.
Hmm that's weird, why would she continue to reach out for a possible relationship, like you said she might be doing when she snapped at Cloud?
I didn't say she was reaching out for a possible relationship when she snapped at Cloud. I said she was reaching out for a possible relationship when she asked if he wanted to talk after finding that delivery order from Elmyra to deliver flowers to Aerith's grave. And that wasn't the only example - there would be many opportunities for her to reach out while she was living with him in the same house.
Why not drop it if she knows he's in love with another girl?
Most likely because the other girl is dead. Cloud and Tifa have a strong friendship, so she'd have reason to hope it would grow into something more.
In fact, Aerith being dead is one reason that Cloti's have said for a long time that Cloud wouldn't be in love with Aerith and that he would move on, etc. Thing is, feelings like that are able to continue after death - just look at Yuna's feelings for Tidus. Just look at Barret's feeling for his dead wife. Just look at Vincent's feelings for Lucrecia.
She's supposed to be strong I think she would back off for good if this were the case. Not only that but her feelings extend past the game so this seems kind of out of character for Tifa.
Doesn't seem OOC for Tifa at all to me. Like I said to Tres, it takes a lot of emotional strength for a person to wait for someone else to grow to love them, and to hope it will happen someday.
Tres
Ariadne said:
Chantara said:
Okay, I'm going to address your last question first, because I see no place in Case of Tifa where it "specifies that Barret helped build Cloud and Tifa's home rather than his, Cloud and Tifa's home." Unless this is something added to the Audiobooks, which I haven't listened to - it's nowhere in the text copies I've read online.
That was a typo on my part, sorry. I meant to say Case of Barret.
Second line of Barret's story in the English version says "After helping Tifa and Cloud build their home ..." (i.e. Cloud and Tifa's home). The second line of Barret's story in the Japanese version says the same thing: "バレットはティファとクラウドの家造りを手伝った後 ...."
Ownership of the home is attributed to Tifa and Cloud ("ティファとクラウドの家"), but not Barret.
In the first place,"their home" can grammatically mean "Barret, Cloud, and Tifa's home". Barret can easily be part of "their", especially since the story is written in third person.
In the second place, he may be calling it "Cloud and Tifa's home" because that's where Cloud and Tifa are living.
Case of Tifa makes it very obvious that Barret's planning to live there
with them while he's helping to build it. Plus,
Case of Tifa shows that it was all Barret's idea to start a business together with Cloud and Tifa, which is why the house was built. Barret was planning to stay - Case of Barret makes it clear that the only reason he left was to find redemption for his sins.
Being with Marlene gave him peace of mind; he felt guilty for putting off action just one more day. He knew he had to leave, even if he had no purpose. Put some space between him and his heart's crutch, bear himself to the wilds. This was a "quick-fix" departure.. ~Case of Barret
He wanted to put space between himself and Marlene because she is his "heart's crutch". He didn't think he could find redemption with Marlene at his side.
Anastar said:
Why is Tifa talking about taking off to settling her past (like Barret) if the plan is to live here with Cloud and build a family?
Is leaving Cloud behind necessary to settle her past? Ultimately, she seeks redemption right there by -- as Barret bid her to do -- trying to prove she could give, not just take.
Maybe so, but Barret had to point that out to Tifa. In
Case of Tifa, we see that Tifa was thinking of taking off to settle her sins, too, before Barret said that to her.
Anastar said:
Why does Tifa wonder if Cloud thinks of the Seventh Heaven as "Tifa's place", too, if it's supposed to be Cloud and Tifa's place?
If I were to guess, I'd say that it's because -- as you pointed out -- she was surprised Barret left. Since Cloud seemed to understand Barret's reasons for leaving, she probably had concerns about how well he would adapt to a normal life as well.
And if Cloud seems to understand Barret's reasons for leaving, it could be because Cloud has reasons for leaving, too. However, my original question remains - why would Tifa wonder if Cloud thinks of the Seventh Heaven as "Tifa's place"? If this is supposed to be "Cloud and Tifa's place", then she shouldn't even be wondering whether Cloud thinks of it as Tifa's place alone.
Nonetheless, the narrative does call it Cloud and Tifa's home, so that's what it was.
After Barret left. What was it before Barret left? Was Barret staying at "Cloud and Tifa's home", or was the Seventh Heaven "Cloud, Barret, and Tifa's home" before Barret left on a
journey to settle his sins?
Anastar said:
Also notice that it says that Marlene had been sleeping with Tifa. Sounds to me like the girls were sharing a room - not Cloud and Tifa.
Yes, for at least that first week after Seventh Heaven was opened Marlene slept with Tifa; presumably as they had been doing while they were homeless. That doesn't seem out of the ordinary, though. Marlene was still a small child who had been through many changes and traumatic events. You wouldn't shove her off to her own room immediately.
Okay, but what about after Barret left? Do the girls continue sharing a room until Denzel arrives?
Anastar said:
So I'm not sure where you get the idea that Barret was building a place for Cloud and Tifa, or that Barret wasn't originally planning to stay. Plus, Barret says he's going on a journey to settle his past. A "journey" implies that he will be back someday - which is another reason I think Barret is part of the family. I think Barret still plans to return once he has "settled his past".
Well, you can now see where I get the idea that Barret was building a place for Cloud and Tifa, and never intended to stay with them. His own story calls it theirs.
But Barret may be calling it Cloud and Tifa's place simply because that's where they are living at that time.
Case of Tifa shows that Barret was originally planning to stay and run a business with Cloud and Tifa. If he had stayed, the Seventh Heaven would most likely be "Barret, Cloud, and Tifa's place".
And of course Barret will be back someday. His daughter is there. That doesn't entail that he's going to live at Seventh Heaven, though.
That doesn't entail that Barret's NOT going to live at Seventh Heaven when he returns, either.
As for him being part of the nuclear family, he's not been described as such, so we can't assume he is.
Marlene seems to consider him part of the nuclear family, since she still calls Barret "Daddy" in ACC. Last I heard, Marlene and Denzel both still call Cloud and Tifa by their first names instead of designating them as parents.
Anastar said:
Why do they specifically choose to live together, though, rather than as neighbors in their own adjacent houses?
Since the original plan was to have Barret living there, too, why not? It was Barret, Cloud, and Tifa with no place to go. The original plan was to run the business together, according to Barret. Barret wanted to build a place for the business, and they made it into a place like the old Seventh Heaven where a whole group of people use to live.
That's a fair enough response, I suppose, at least for their initial arrangements. What about after Barret had gone?
Well, I'm not sure how long they were homeless and living together, nor am I sure how long it took to build the Seventh Heaven - but I would assume that that was a period of at least several months. Before that, Cloud and Tifa were traveling together with Avalanche for a number of months during the course of FFVII and before that, in the Seventh Heaven.
So up to that point, Cloud and Tifa have been together for approximately a year total. During that time, it's never definitely established whether or not they are romantically involved. Whatever relationship they've had over that course of time would just continue.
So why not, considering that the new Seventh Heaven is the only plan they have and they have no place else to go. I don't see why friends wouldn't decide to do that in the middle of a wrecked community where everything they ever had has been demolished - except for the Seventh Heaven. They already said they didn't want to go back to Nibelheim, so where else?
And you seem to forget that I'm saying this COULD be happening as easily as your idea of their relationship COULD be happening. Personally, I think it's up to interpretation, and that either interpretation is possible.
Anastar said:
Plus, Cloud says this in Case of Tifa (Revised):
“No. You’re much more cheerful and strong. If you’ve forgotten the way you were then, I’ll be there to remind you.”
“You really will?”
“Probably,” Cloud said blushing.
Probably? Why is Cloud saying "probably" if his only plan is to live with Tifa?
Probably because he's bashful.
In any case, he had already just told her that his plan was to have her with him from that day forward and that he knew his new life could succeed because he had her. It's definite that his plan was to live with her.
Okay, it's possible that he's just bashful, but that's also your interpretation. Yes, he had told her that his plan was to have her with him from that day forward, but how do you know he hasn't changed his mind since then? It's only your interpretation that Cloud meant it romantically when he said he was to have Tifa with him from that day forward.
Like I said earlier - since Cloud seems to understand Barret's reasons for wanting to leave, it's possible that Cloud's wanting to leave, too. Tifa said she was thinking about leaving and resolving her sins like Barret - so it's obvious that she had similar thoughts.
The world as they knew it is disheveled right now. All of them are feeling guilty. All of them are wanting to find redemption for their sins. None of them are sure how to do it. It doesn't seem to me that any of them have any definite plans at this point.
Anastar said:
So, is she interested in a relationship with him or is she not?
In the LA or the HA version?
I was talking here about the LA version. You wanted to know how Cloud and Tifa could confirm that they are mutually disinterested in a relationship if SE says that Tifa loves Cloud. I replied that it's possible for someone to realize that it would be a mistake to start a relationship with someone even though you're attracted to that person. That would qualify as Tifa being disinterested in a relationship.
But I went on to say that Tifa
may still be hoping that someday
things will change. So no, she's still not interested in a relationship NOW - especially when she sees that Cloud is still in love with Aerith.
If she's currently hoping for things to change, then she's interested in a relationship right now. It wouldn't be accurate to say that she's not interested in a relationship right now -- instead, it would be that she wants things to change right now.
Bah - you really don't understand women very well, do you?
I was in a similar situation in college. I was romantically interested in this guy who was going out with a friend of mine. I didn't try to interfere with their relationship in any way, but I kept hoping he'd take an interest in me at some point. After he broke up with her, I was still hoping that he would. It never happened, and eventually I moved on - but he and I remain good friends until this day.
Anastar said:
It pretty much says that in Tifa's profile:
In addition, Cloud had also gone away to the church that Aerith had been in. The thing which she is unable to hide in her irritation towards Cloud is the fact that he isn’t merely dragging the past around, but because that reason might perhaps be related to Aerith.
......
AC: Upon knowing that Cloud had been residing in Aerith’s church after leaving the place they had been living in together, her expression becomes complex. ~Tifa's character profile, 10th Anniversary Ultimania
It doesn't say that, though. You're still leaving out parts of that quote. What it says is that Tifa's irritation related to Aerith stems from how he's let his guilt over her death drag him into depression:
(bold added for emphasis)
Tifa’s complicated feelings continue even in AC, two years after Aerith had departed the world. This was due to the fact that Cloud, succumbing to the notion that Aerith’s death was his fault and condemning himself, construed that Denzel was “the child which Aerith brought here” and took care of him. In addition, Cloud had also gone away to the church that Aerith had been in. The thing which she is unable to hide in her irritation towards Cloud is the fact that he isn’t merely dragging the past around, but because that reason might perhaps be related to Aerith.
And the same part of Tifa's profile says that Aerith was/is (not specified) a "love rival" to Tifa:
Both of them share feelings for Cloud — Tifa was close to Aerith, who can also be called a love rival. With that point in mind, they were also good friends. Nevertheless, it is not hard to imagine that she carries complex feelings as a woman toward Aerith, who had built up a special bond with Cloud that was different from Tifa’s.
Tifa’s complicated feelings continue even in AC, two years after Aerith had departed the world.
"Both of them share feelings for Cloud" is in present tense.
"Aerith, who can also be called a love rival" is once again in present tense.
"she carries complex feelings as a woman toward Aerith" is also in present tense.
"Tifa's complicated feelings continue even in AC" is also in present tense.
So if Tifa's complex/complicated feelings as a woman are present even in AC, then Tifa still considers Aerith a "love rival". This would indicate that the LA version of the HW scene took place.
Anastar said:
Also, since Tifa's affection value is the one subject to manipulation by the player, if Cloud's feelings are supposed to be mercurial and adjust to match hers, in a scenario in which Tifa thinks it unwise to get into a relationship with Cloud because he's in love with Aerith, shouldn't her feelings have influenced his rather than the reverse?
I already explained that in an earlier post. I'm not going to bother digging it up, but here's the concept:
Tifa's affection level goes up when Cloud is nice to her. Tifa's affection level goes down when Cloud isn't nice to her.
When Cloud is nice to Tifa, then his affection for her goes up. That happens in RL, doesn't it? When you have good interactions with someone, you get to like them more. When Cloud isn't nice to Tifa, then his affection level for her goes down. Again, that happens in RL - you act nasty to someone when you don't like them. When Cloud acts nasty to Tifa, her affection goes down.
So yes, the affection level is mutual for this reason.
That doesn't match the game mechanics, though. Cloud doesn't have an affection rating. Tifa does. Her feelings are the ones the player manipulates.
But Tifa's affection level is the result of Cloud's ACTIONS or WORDS toward Tifa (or Aerith). As an example:
When everyone lands in the sewer:
- Talk to Aeris first: (+3 Aeris)
- Talk to Tifa first: (+3 Tifa)
Source:
http://www.rpgamer.com/games/ff/ff7/info/tf_date.txt
It's easy to assume that Cloud is acting according to how he feels. If you like one girl more than the other, then it's normal to treat and talk to the girl you like better in a more favorable way than you treat the other. The way Cloud acts and talks is also an indication of how he feels.
What you've said is that Cloud's feelings for Tifa will fluctuate to match hers for him -- but you're also saying that her feelings for him are dependent on his feelings for Aerith. Which is the dependent and independent variable here?
Actually, no. I'm not saying that.
I said that Tifa's interest in a relationship with Cloud will change. She may still be attracted to him and still be very fond of him, while at the same time she is not interested in a relationship with him.
That also doesn't really make sense because the player doesn't have options to act nasty toward Tifa (e.g. there's no option to call her the slum drunk).
You don't have to "be nasty" to Tifa to subtract points from Tifa's affection level. For example, when you first meet RedXIII (and free RedXIII and Aerith from Hojo's "breeding cage"):
When you first meet Red XIII:
- "Tifa, I'm countin' on you!" (-2 Tifa)
- "Barret, take care of her!" (+2 Barret)
Source: http://www.rpgamer.com/games/ff/ff7/info/tf_date.txt
It subtracts points from Tifa's affection level if you ask Tifa to take care of Aerith. Cloud's not "being nasty" to Tifa - he's just asking Tifa to take care of Aerith when Tifa would rather be in on the fight.
For that matter, one can get the high affection Highwind scene even if they didn't get Tifa for the date.
And that could be interpreted to mean that Cloud loves
both Aerith and Tifa.
And, further still, most of the things that influence the affection values are completely arbitrary with no obvious relationship to the values that they influence, and even less obvious links to the effects they have.
For example, before the player even meets Tifa, they can influence Tifa's affection value. It goes down by three points if you tell Jessie "Looking forward to it" on the train ride back to Sector 7.
What does that have to do with Tifa?
Easy.
Talk to Jessie twice on the train home from the first mission:
"Thanks anyway" --
"Looking forward to it" (-3 Tifa)
If Cloud talks twice to Jessie, then he's starting to get interested in a relationship with Jessie, so it's -3 Tifa. That's a very good example of how Cloud's actions suggest how he feels toward Tifa. If he's getting interested in a relationship with Jessie, then he's less likely to be interested in a relationship with Tifa. So, Tifa gets -3 points to her affection level.
How about getting to the last train car before lockdown during the Reactor 5 mission? Why does that give Tifa and Barret's affection values five points?
Easy. They both respect Cloud's abilities more, since he's able to get out of trouble as easily as they are - they didn't have to help him out. So both of them like him more.
Why does saying "I don't know if I can hold on" at the end of that mission give Tifa's affection rating one point?
Because if he says that, she thinks he's about to die. (If you pick the opposite, he says not to worry about him.) So if you pick the other one, Tifa's remembering her fondness for him before Cloud dies. She even tries to grab him as he falls away, but fails.
If Aerith is chosen as Corneo's date, why does saying "We've gotta help Aerith!" increase Tifa's affection value, while asking her if she's alright lowers it?
Aw, come on - that's unfair. Even the person who wrote the Date Mech guide at
http://www.rpgamer.com/games/ff/ff7/info/tf_date.txt says that he/she doesn't know why it's that way.
But... I would think it would be like this. If Cloud asks Tifa if she's alright, then Cloud thinks she needs help. If Cloud asks Tifa to help him find Aerith, then Cloud thinks Tifa's a good ally to have in a fight.
Sorry, but that's all I have time for....