The Love Triangle Debate thread of KNEEL BEFORE ZOD OR SUFFER HIS WRATH (ignore the opening posts at your peril) (Round 6)

[The Twilight Mexican]

still cannot believe 'apathetic conversation' needs discussion

because it seems clear that it's talking about what we see in the game, where there are no feelings talked about

One would think books summarizing the game's story would be talking about scenes shown to us in the game, yes.

but this whole debate never grows and never changes lolz

Objection. It gets more retarded.

also is there a scan of this companion page to the FTOIL one so i can force my translation on people look at it?

She's talking about pg. 232 of the U20 Scenario, from the Story Playback for FFVII:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v132/Squall_of_Seed/ffu20highwind.jpg

 

[Strangelove]

One would think books summarizing the game's story would be talking about scenes shown to us in the game, yes.

Obviously Nomura means that we should use our imagination for filling in everything.

Imagination is probably the only way any of us will be playing FF Versus XIII before old age, after all

Objection. It gets more retarded.

It's astounding. Time is fleeting, madness takes its toll. But listen closely (not for very much longer), I've got to keep control.

I remember doing the Time Warp, drinking those moments when the blackness would hit me and the void would be calling: "Let's do the Time Warp again!"

okay so i'm just about to watch rocky horror and this is the closest i can get to singing

She's talking about pg. 232 of the U20 Scenario, from the Story Playback for FFVII:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v132/Squall_of_Seed/ffu20highwind.jpg

delicious criticism feeds my soul nomnomnom

- the contents of
This could be excluded all together or switched around, since with the following 'deep subject matter' it sounds awkward and kind of stilted.

- the two's conversation
Overly literal and unpleasant when it's used to just mean 'their conversation'.

- deep subject matter
Or exclude 'subject matter' and render it "the content of their conversation will be deep..."

- and strong feelings for each other
The 'strong feelings' aren't an additional item in the conversation, that's what the 'deep subject matter' was about, using よう to give an example of what the subject matter is (お互いを強く思いやるような深い内&#23481. And rather than 'strong feelings for each other', I would say '[such as showing that] they care deeply for each other'. To be honest, this seems to be the most innocent of all the quotes relating to the Highwind scene (high affection) to me.

- the sight of the two
'Sight' for 様子? Seems kind of odd, and possibly something that could be excluded with little consequence.

- seen by their companions the next morning
This makes it sound like the team saw them the next morning, rather than what the Japanese line says that the fact the team were watching [Cloud and Tifa] (ふたりの様子を仲間たちが見ていたこと&#12364 is discovered/found out by Tifa the next morning (翌朝発覚&#12375.

- an embarrassing scene for Tifa
ティファが照れる場面

ティファ - Tifa
が - subject marker
照れる - to be embarrassed
場面 - scene

Using the awesome power of no-relative-pronouns, this is 'the scene where Tifa is embarrassed' (though in English you would probably put 'Tifa'--or this whole clause--a lot closer to the start of this sentence).

- and she blushes greatly.
Missing the reference where it says that with the high affection version her reaction is greater, than the not-mentioned low version (好感度の高いときのほうが彼女の照れかたが大きい）

Spoiler: just to give another version that everyone much now believe above all else

The conversation between Cloud and Tifa before the final battle will differ depending on Tifa's degree of affection. If her affection value is high, the content of their conversation will be deep, showing that they strongly care for each other. Also, in the scene where Tifa is embarrassed to discover the next morning that the team were watching her and Cloud, her reaction when her affection is high is greater.

Thanks for the scan, honey.

I also notice that in this section talking about the two different versions of the scene, it only talks about the high one.

It's almost like they're trying to hint at something.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Thanks for the clarification, sexy. Hope I'll be as good as you someday (in every way ).

 

[Dashell]

okay I'm trying to get to sleep here... but I can't seem to get to sleep so I'm going to start responding to Anastar's latest response and see if maybe that'll wear me out a bit. LTDing is hard work sometimes

Disclaimer:
1) I do not think that either Clerith or Cloti have been canonized by SE.
2) I argue for Clerith because I agree with that interpretation of the Compilation.
3) I use Clerith interpretations to support optionality by showing that scenes and source materials can be interpreted in other ways than just Cloti.
4) I use official quotes to show that those quotes can be used to support the Clerith interpretation, too - not just Cloti. That does not mean I think that the Clerith interpretation is the only possible interpretation. It means I think that SE doesn't support only one pairing or one version of the Compilation.
5) I am not trying to prove that Cloti is wrong. I'm trying to show that Clerith is a possible interpretation of the Compilation, that Cloti is not the only possible interpretation of the Compilation, that the Clerith interpretation is every bit as valid as the Cloti interpretation, and that the Clerith interpretation can also be supported by official source material - not just Cloti.

okay here's mine:

DISCLAIMER:

1. I do not have any malicious feelings with this post
2. I am not trying to insult you in any way.
3. If you feel offended when reading something I say, please don't. If I intend to be offensive, I'll let you know.
4. Little Willy Willy won't go home
5. You don't really need to reply to this since I'm sure Zealkin will reply herself, but if she wants to use anything from this post she can.

We don't know that feelings aren't communicated in the LA version, or that feelings are only communicated in the HA version. That's purely your assumption.

Is it possible it's your assumption that feelings ARE shared in the LA version? We have no such statement, so wouldn't it be just as much an assumption to say feelings are shared? Especially since the word feelings is only said in the HA scene?

The phrase saying that the LA version is apathetic and ends short does not mean that feelings aren't communicated. I said this to Lancelot the other day, but I'll repeat it here:

- No, that does not confirm the HA version. They disclose their feelings for one another in both versions. The word "apathetic" does not mean that nothing is communicated. Cloud can communicate indifference by simply saying, "Just to be clear, I don't want to be anything more than friends, Tifa". That statement is both apathetic (or candid) and short.

Any particular reason you're using the "apathetic and ends short" quote and applying it to a conversation that we don't see in the game? Wouldn't it make more sense that they're telling us about the conversation we DID see?

It's apathetic because it shows his indifference to getting involved romantically.

That's one definition of apathetic. Apathetic could also mean he's not interested in her at all and vice versa, right? Could it also mean he's not interested in being just friends?

It's candid because it's honest. It also discloses his feelings. If Tifa said back, "I feel the same way, Cloud", then she's expressing mutual feelings with Cloud. It's apathetic because it shows her indifference to a relationship, it's candid, it discloses her feelings of indifference, and it's short. ~Chantara, http://thelifestream.net/forums/show...postcount=2303

So feelings can still be communicated in an apathetic scene that ends quickly.

Again, this did NOT happen in the game. I don't understand why a conversation that didn't happen in the game, that you wrote yourself keeps getting brought up.

Do you mean this happened after the scene fades to black? Cloud says "We should get some sleep." and Tifa shakes her head. This would imply they went to sleep then and the conversation was over.

Deviation - Two versions of the conversation before the final battle
Prior to the final battle, the contents of the conversation between Cloud and Tifa can change depending on the degree of Tifa's affection. If the degree of affection is high, the contents of the two's conversation will involve deep subject matter and strong feelings for each other. As well, the sight of the two seen by their companions the next morning will lead to an embarrassing scene for Tifa, and she blushes greatly. ~page 232, Final Fantasy 20th Anniversary Ultimania

It clearly says that the conversation is different in the two versions depending on Tifa's affection level. Therefore, there's conversation in both versions.

Okay, uhm I'll admit that I haven't been following the topic all that well lately but did someone say there's no conversation in the LA scene? Cause there kinda is... they don't just stand there

But that quote is talking about what we see in the game. There's differences between the talk that we see between Cloud and Tifa in both versions. You have a script of both on your site, they're different from one another. When Square says, "The conversation is different." they mean the conversation that took place within the game.

1. Cloud is pictured with both Aerith and Tifa under the heading of Love Between Heroes. No other main protagonist has two different pictures with two different women on that page.

What does the text say about Aerith again?

2. Both the pictured scene of Cloud with Aerith and the pictured scene of Cloud with Tifa are labeled as optional with deviations. They are labeled that way by a page number being listed for further reference above each picture:

Can you please highlight on the FTOIL page where this deviation is listed? I don't see it. You obviously have the picture, so can you please circle it or something?

4. There is absolutely no reason for the Clerith date picture to be on the FTOIL page unless it has something to do with the title "Love Between Heroes".
5. There is absolutely no reason for the Clerith date picture to be on the FTOIL page if Cloti is being declared canon.

The only explanation for Cloud to be pictured on the FTOIL page with two different females, both in optional scenes, is that SE considers both women to be possible love interests for Cloud on an optional basis.

So if I gave more explanations as to why Aerith is on the page, none of those would count? Since there's only one explanation? Or is this your interpretation?

The page numbers are there to provide further information about each picture, are they not? If the page number is listed on the FTOIL page, then the information on those pages is considered relevant to the topic of "Love Between Heroes".

Or it's just more information about the scenes themselves...

In the first place, I don't consider that to be complicated. In the second place, no other Final Fantasy has optional love interests for the main protagonist. In the third place, how else would SE show that Cloud has optional love interests than to picture him with both women and note that the scenes are optional?

Idk, SAY something about Aerith and Cloud communicating feelings... instead of a picture with a description of "This turns out one of 4 ways."

IF SE wanted to make either Cloti or Clerith canon, then why picture Cloud with the other woman, too?

Well it's been said that because this is the only game where the hero can go on a date with one of 4 people, but according to you there's only ONE explanation, right?

Besides, the Cloti's in this debate have been saying that you can tell the HA HW scene is canon because it's used in story summaries. That's a WAY more complicated way to show something's canon than showing Cloud with two women in optional scenes to mean that his love interest is optional.

Is that why we're saying the HA scene is canon? I thought it was because that's how the story panned out in that direction.. in fact I thought I posted a big essay on it, with everything I said backed up with a factual statement by the creators.


Also saying in a story summery, "This happened."is a complicated way of saying, "This happened."?

I see nothing unprofessional or complicated about saying that Cloud has optional love interests.

Me either... but it'd probably have been a LOT less difficult for them if they had you know, mentioned Aerith by name on the page and not just "This turns out one of 4 ways." idk, I think if Square wanted to say the couples were optional they did it in a stupid way

The point is that IF SE was trying to say that Cloti is canon, then there is absolutely no reason whatsoever for SE to put the Clerith date scene on the page, too. That'd be like putting the FFX snowmobile ride of Tidus with Rikku/Lulu on the page alongside the pic of Tidus kissing Yuna in the Macalania spring. Why is Cloud the ONLY main protagonist shown with two women? Because the pairings are optional.

Is this interpretation again, or fact? Because I can come up with other reasons, reasons that have been said in this thread and reasons that wouldn't change no matter WHO was depicted in the date scene.

Also can you honestly tell me you'd change your mind about Tidus and Yuna if there was an image of Tidus riding a snowmobile with Lulu and the text said, "depending on how Tidus treats them, someone will ride along with Tidus on the snowmobile to Seymour's"

Good question, but they obviously didn't want to do it that way or they would have.

I agree. They didn't want to do it that way, so they didn't. Now.... why didn't they want to do it that way?

Point is, why the hell is the Clerith date scene even on the page under "Love Between Heroes" IF Cloti is canon? The Clerith date scene has absolutely no relevance IF Cloti is canon. Why not just put the HW scene picture ONLY without specifying that there are two optional versions IF Cloti is canon?
---
Then why is the Clerith date picture on the page, too? IF SE wanted to make it clear that Cloti is canon, then it would have been made clear if SE had put ONLY the HW scene picture on the page without labeling the scene as optional. But they chose not to do that - why?

Cause it's not the "Clerith date" scene? okay here's a serious question.

On the page with the date scene it says (something like), "Aerith voices her feelings for Cloud."

Speaking just of the FTOIL page and not the pages they link to, why didn't they say THAT on the FTOIL page under the date? why did they go with "this ends one of 4 ways."? If they wanted to emphasize Cloud and Aerith, why only show a picture but not mention it in text?

The text beneath the HW scene just says flat out "C and T share feelings." so why not do this for the date scene as well?

Let's break it down here. I'm not sure how I'll do this without tables but I'll try.
___________________________HW Scene | Date Scene
Has a page number up in the
corner that speaks of a deviation.____[X]_______[X]

Has a page number up in the
corner that goes into more details____[X]_______[X]

Mentions optionality on the
FTOIL page______________________[O]_______[X]

Mentions girl by name
on the FTOIL page________________[X]_______[O]


Yeah it's a stupid graphic but it took me a while so imma leave it in

Because they're not talking about feelings of friendship. They're talking about feelings of love being possible with two different women in FFVII.

So they put the whole page together to say "Cloud's love life is optional"?

I've already explained how feelings can be communicated in the LA version.

But you kind of had to rewrite the scene to do so. okay watch this.

Cloud: We should get some sleep
Tifa: Yeah you're right *shakes head*
Cloud: What's wrong? Why did you shake your head?
Tifa: *Sigh* because Cloud, I really want us to be more than just friends but you're obviously not interested ;_;
Cloud: T-Tifa... that IS what I wanted... I thought YOU weren't interested.
Tifa: Really Cloud?
Cloud: Sure, let's be more than friends. I love you and I always have. Friendship just won't work for us.
Tifa: I agree


Okay... there now, see they're apathetic to a friendship...









not buying it are you?
I don't blame you, I'm not either. But see how that doesn't work? You have to make up a scene for it to work instead of using the content in the game. Why does Clerith have to do this where Cloti does not?

So why does he NOT love Tifa in the LA version? SE hasn't said why, just like SE hasn't said why Cloud loves Tifa or even IF Cloud loves Tifa non-optionally. I've given you possible reasons. I've already explained those possible reasons.

SE also hasn't said he doesn't love Tifa in the LA scene IIRC. If they do, please provide a quote. And I want a quote that says that exactly, not a quote you interpret as saying such.

See above. I'm answering your question with another question because I can't answer your question for the same reason you can't answer my question.

Glad we got that figured out.

I already explained that. It's possible to hurt people you love by accident.

You said Cloud will do things to raise their affections because he likes them more and vice versa. By your own words, Cloud pushes the barrels because he DOES NOT like Aerith that much. He's doing it on purpose according to you.

That's only your assumption. There's no proof that those quotes relate to the HA version only. The phrase describing the LA version as "apathetic" (or "candid") and "ends quickly" does not mean that feelings weren't exchanged. I showed that in my example to Lancelot.

Furthermore, it's stated on the Deviations page that both versions contain conversation. If there's conversation in both versions, then there's communication in both versions:

Deviation - Two versions of the conversation before the final battle
Prior to the final battle, the contents of the conversation between Cloud and Tifa can change depending on the degree of Tifa's affection. If the degree of affection is high, the contents of the two's conversation will involve deep subject matter and strong feelings for each other. As well, the sight of the two seen by their companions the next morning will lead to an embarrassing scene for Tifa, and she blushes greatly. ~page 232, Final Fantasy 20th Anniversary Ultimania

It clearly says that the conversation is different in the two versions depending on Tifa's affection level. Therefore, there's conversation and communication in both versions.

I honestly don't want to respond to this again.

In the first place, we know they're feelings of love for Celes/Locke, Cecil/Rosa. and Ingus/Sara because their feelings of love for one another are well established in the game itself on a non-optional basis. However, It's never established for Cloud and Tifa in FFVII on a non-optional basis.

But this is your opinion right? Is it possible your opinion is wrong?

The only way we know the "mutual feelings" described in the paragraph about the HW scene on the FTOIL are feelings of love because of the title and caption on the page itself - nothing else indicates that it's love. In fact, the word "love" isn't even used in the description. SE says they share "deep feelings", not WHAT feelings. So the ONLY way we know it's love is because of the title saying "Love Between Heroes". Current love between Cloud and Tifa was NEVER confirmed in the game itself or anywhere in the Compilation on a non-optional basis.

1. The Lifestream event
2. 7/8 quotes are romantic, we've been told this by allexperts.com.
3. your OPINION is that there's no confirmation in the game or anywhere in the Compilation on a non-optional basis. Again, is it possible your opinion is wrong?

So the only way we know the feelings talked about on the FTOIL page is because of the title of the page, "Love Between Heroes".

Isn't it For the One I Love?

Well, the same title about love is over the picture of Cloud and Aerith, too. If the only way we know that the HW scene pic is about love, then it means we know that the Clerith date scene pic is about love, too.

then why does it say "This happens one of 4 ways" if ONLY the Clerith date is romantic. Or are the other dates romantic too?

The very fact that there is a second picture of Cloud with another woman and that both pictures of Cloud are labeled as optional means that things are different for FFVII than in the other FF games.

Except the pictures aren't labeled as optional...

"Apathetic" and "ends short" don't mean that Cloud and Tifa didn't communicate anything.

It does if the conversation was apathetic.

As clarification. That's necessary at times when you're good friends with a member of the opposite sex.

Or the same sex if homosexuality is involved


So you're arguing that on Cloud and Tifa's last night alive together they decide to tell each other how they aren't interested in each other romantically? That makes sense to you?

That has as much basis for happening as the HA version if a player has been picking choices throughout the game that raise Aerith's affection level instead of Tifa's.

No it doesn't. You can't just make up a scene and say "This could have happened." as an argument when we're discussing canon.

And why does the darkness have to convey something other than sleeping if they have no interest in a relationship with each other?

You're aware that you've been pushing a scene that does not exist as a possibility based on the fact that it may have happened after the fade to black right? Now you're saying they were sleeping.

Please pick a stance

a. Scene you wrote
b. Sleepy time

It's just as possible for Cloud and Tifa to not have interest in a relationship with each other as it is for them to have interest in a relationship with each other. There's nothing confirmed either way in the game or the rest of the Compilation on a non-optional basis.

your opinion... could it be wrong?

Ryu got the quotes so:

Yes, I've heard the colloquialism, but I've never heard that it can ONLY refer to a boyfriend/girlfriend relationship.

Please provide at least 3 examples of it being used for friends then. And it has to say "[girl's name] was left behind by a man" not [girl's name] was left behind by [boy's name]

In the first place, how do you know the quotes are referring back to the FTOIL page? In the second place, the FTOIL page specifies that there are two versions of the HW scene and that Cloud shares "strong feelings" with Tifa ONLY when Tifa's affection level is high.

So when the quotes say that the two confirm mutual feelings, it can be referring to the LA version as easily as it can be referring to the HA version.

do you mean "When the quote?" because only one of them isn't romantic




kay that's all i can do. I know this won't be responded to but I think i wore myself out enough. Zealkin, feel free to use any of this as you like

 

[Vendel]

It's said right in the quote that you gave me:

Behind these actions lies feelings of guilt towards his past failure to protect people who were important to him

Who do you think the person was who was important to him that he failed to protect?

I just noticed this. But how can you say this quote is just talking about Aerith when it says "people" important to him and not "person"?

Seems to me this quote can easily cover Tifa, Zack, his mom etc.

And I think it's more than logical that he goes to Aerith's Church to be near Aerith. It's the place where he can be closest to her. He leaves Seventh Heaven to go live at Aerith's Church while he's dying. Who is he going to be near while he's at Aerith's Church? Aerith or Tifa?

Isn't the forgotten City the place where he can be closest to her? That is where the group goes to say goodbye to her in CoT. Now if one were seeking forgiveness? A church makes sense.

Also I feel the need to point out it is never stated anywhere that Cloud leaves to be "closer to Aerith".

 

[Danseru-kun]

Haha I'm back pretty soon because I can't help it. It seems that Anastar has ignored two scenes in AC/ACC:

1. Cloud and Aerith's dialogue at the Forgotten Capital.

"I want to be forgiven" instead of "I wan't to be with you Aerith" or "I miss you, I want to see your face one more time."

2. Cloud and Marlene's aww talk that's all about Denzel

Seriously, I watched AC without knowing anything about FFVII. I thought that Meteor was Jenova because she was "the calamity that fell from the sky." I belonged to the wave of new fans who knew Cloud as a very depressed dude instead of a leader.

Without any bias or emotional attachment to any character, I saw Cloud and Tifa as a man and woman working on problems in their relationship while raising children. Aerith and Cloud's bond intrigued me and I shipped them, despite seeing no romance between them in the film. All I got from Cloud is his depression from being sick and his guilt from "letting your(Aerith) die."

After reading LTD's, I found out my initial interpretation isn't far from what it's supposed to be.

 

[Strangelove]

Thanks for the clarification, sexy. Hope I'll be as good as you someday (in every way ).

Don't dream it, be it!

By which I mean I always have mountains of stuff I could share with you if you ever need it

Also can you honestly tell me you'd change your mind about Tidus and Yuna if there was an image of Tidus riding a snowmobile with Lulu and the text said, "depending on how Tidus treats them, someone will ride along with Tidus on the snowmobile to Seymour's"

I don't have the book, so maybe someone who does can check, but does FFX's story summary talk about the player influenced deviations like saying Lulu's more your type, or such? Does that mean that there's an optional element to Tidus' love life?

But since we're seemingly in the realm of imaginary conversations, I don't even know anymore.

 

[Dashell]

I just noticed this. But how can you say this quote is just talking about Aerith when it says "people" important to him and not "person"?

Silly vendel, every quote is about Aerith

Isn't the forgotten City the place where he can be closest to her? That is where the group goes to say goodbye to her in CoT. Now if one were seeking forgiveness? A church makes sense.

Isn't she living inside him? Wouldn't he be close to her no matter what?

 

[Alessa Gillespie]

But since we're seemingly in the realm of imaginary conversations, I don't even know anymore.

imaginaaaaaary lovers
never turn you down
when all others turn you away
they're around

SE has only said that "feelings" were shared in the HW scene, not romantic feelings. Whenever SE says that "strong feelings" were shared, they specify that those feelings were shared in the HA version. Note that SE never says that romantic feelings were shared or that love was shared in the HA version - they only say "strong feelings".

is this from the same person who says that undying feelings indicates cloud must be in love with aerith? the irony is palpable in the air.........

join me and say cloud loves everyone cause really it makes the most sense bluh

 

[aerbear]

It is. Don't deny it.
Doesn't matter.
For a similar reason that all the versions of the Sister Ray scene without Vincent in them don't matter. We're told what happens that night. Romantic feelings are mutually shared. The version that has no feelings does not happen.

I'm still confused - is it "candid" or "apathetic"?

Where would you add it in if not a story summary or including it as the most impressive scene? Or a listing of notable romantic confessions?

Because that's like, the sledgehammer of canon.

Does Tifa literally have to go 'Hey Cloud, remember when we had sex underneath the highwind?'

'Hey Cloud, remember when we didn't have sex underneath the highwind?'

Must it be kludged in unceremoniously to have happened?
I supposed 90% of the stuff in FFVII didn't happen then, since it's never explicitly recalled later on, even though we're told what happened.

Did not mean that, smarty.

False dichotomy.
It's not either or.
What the Ultimanias do is INFORM the original games, and yes, that includes saying 'this shit happened' just like the Holocron and other sources for Lucasfilm include saying which shit happened and which shit did not.

You just went the Holocron on me.

So, now you're literally just ignoring information.
And trying to hold a Heisenberg continuity for this one moment.

Okay. Am I, as a Halo player, required to read the Halo Encyclopedia?

There is communication, but it's awkward. And don't get us wrong, I don't think anyone trumpets the HAHW as magically solving all their issues, it was a singular breakthrough of them managing to communicate. Not a panacea for all future issues, especially communication issues about a completely different subject.

Eh, I just think the HA version is weird altogether. It doesn't explain anything to me. If anything, it raises more questions.

To answer that question- no, Canonicity is pretty much universally understood not to be up to interpretation. Ironically, the phrase you used 'shown us the light' is used referring to realizing a truth that is not up to interpretation.

God forbid anything get past Ryu.

Doubly ironically, it is almost always used to refer to something that is wholly up to interpretation.
Ah, Linguistic fuckery.

Enjoy that fuckery.

She's going to piss Batman off, though, and that's far worse.

Batman's always pissed. He'll adjust.

Skin her alive or get into her head and convince her of things?

I'm suppressing the mental images.

So, like you're making a big deal of nothing?

If it's nothing, why do these things go on for hundreds of pages?

How darkly appropriate.

How darkly ironic.

Won't. And it wouldn't have any effect.

That's so sad.

Your sexy bird is tragic.

Getting back to things, Hitobito used to be 'that persion you know and trust.'
Then he honestly translated things, and he was insulted and no longer trustworthy because of it.

I wasn't there so I can't comment. But I'm sorry if he was given a hard time.

I don't- in principle- have any problem with verifying a translation. I encouraged it in my article. The problem is, that's not what's at issue here.

With the Koibito in RF translation, the argument isn't over the translation, it's over the understanding of the translation itself. The prime source is provided to aid in the understanding of it.

I fail to see how it's canonizing C/T.

With the Koibito in COLW translation, again, the argument isn't over the word itself, but the greater context of the word, with us saying that for safety and honesty's sake, it must be translated in a particular way, with Anastar wanting it to be translated in a way that favors her, but which is quite literally incorrect given the surrounding information.

I myself think it's her own feeling as opposed to both of theirs, but I have to ask, where does the context say Cloud doesn't feel the same?

Y'know what, though, tell us which translations, specifically, you have issue with, and we can try and walk you through them.

Aw hey, that's nice. Thank you for offering.


-------------------------------

"AC and DC both have their own resolutions, so don't expect cliff-hangers there. Also, DC isn't the direct sequel to FFVII, Advent Children is. So we can't view DC as the ending to the whole big FFVII saga. Plus, FFVII definitely has so many diverse elements, and different fans have interest in different characters, so if, for example, one person is interested in Cloud, Tifa, and Aerith's relationship, then AC may provide some sort of answers for them. Somebody else might be interested in Vincent, so they might want to explore DC. It's not like this is going to complete the whole story, but it will satisfy fans who have strong attachments to individual characters." ~ Kitase, Electronic Gaming Monthly, issue #196, October 2005.

I put the entire statement, so I wouldn't be accused of the dreaded quote mining.

Kitase said we, the viewers, can find some sort of answers (plural!) for ourselves. That makes it clear there isn't one definite answer. No canon. Therefore, the LT wasn't over by Advent Children.

O'Doyle rules.

(Let me guess. Someone found a loophole in this interview and it isn't legitimate? )

 

[Makoeyes987]

....Considering Aerith isn't mentioned, shown, or even related to anything at all going on in Dirge of Cerberus or relating to Cloud and Tifa in that game...

What answer do you think you just got? There's your answer that apparently you can't seem to see. She's gone, and they're moving on.

Also, if you try to discuss Halo without knowing any of the actual facts from said encyclopedia, you'll just look like a fool. So it's up to you.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

-------------------------------

"AC and DC both have their own resolutions, so don't expect cliff-hangers there. Also, DC isn't the direct sequel to FFVII, Advent Children is. So we can't view DC as the ending to the whole big FFVII saga. Plus, FFVII definitely has so many diverse elements, and different fans have interest in different characters, so if, for example, one person is interested in Cloud, Tifa, and Aerith's relationship, then AC may provide some sort of answers for them. Somebody else might be interested in Vincent, so they might want to explore DC. It's not like this is going to complete the whole story, but it will satisfy fans who have strong attachments to individual characters." ~ Kitase, Electronic Gaming Monthly, issue #196, October 2005.

I put the entire statement, so I wouldn't be accused of the dreaded quote mining.

Kitase said we, the viewers, can find some sort of answers (plural!) for ourselves. That makes it clear there isn't one definite answer. No canon. Therefore, the LT wasn't over by Advent Children.

O'Doyle rules.

(Let me guess. Someone found a loophole in this interview and it isn't legitimate? )

Correct me if I'm missing something, but doesn't the notion that there are answers to be found kind of run counter to the notion that everything is optional?

And why are you still using quotes that pre-date the Ultimanias in an attempt to trump them?

 

[Zealkin]

I already have a huge post to respond to but I had to respond to this:

"AC and DC both have their own resolutions, so don't expect cliff-hangers there. Also, DC isn't the direct sequel to FFVII, Advent Children is. So we can't view DC as the ending to the whole big FFVII saga. Plus, FFVII definitely has so many diverse elements, and different fans have interest in different characters, so if, for example, one person is interested in Cloud, Tifa, and Aerith's relationship, then AC may provide some sort of answers for them. Somebody else might be interested in Vincent, so they might want to explore DC. It's not like this is going to complete the whole story, but it will satisfy fans who have strong attachments to individual characters." ~ Kitase, Electronic Gaming Monthly, issue #196, October 2005.

I put the entire statement, so I wouldn't be accused of the dreaded quote mining.

Kitase said we, the viewers, can find some sort of answers (plural!) for ourselves. That makes it clear there isn't one definite answer. No canon. Therefore, the LT wasn't over by Advent Children.

O'Doyle rules.

say whatttttttttt?

No where in that quote does it say that the viewer or fan can come to their own conclusions, it says at the beginning of the quote that the movie will provide answers, but no where does it say that you can make those answers whatever you choose.

Fans that are interested in the trios relationship will get their answers in the movie, it doesn't say the movie will fulfill all of your aspirations towards a certain pairing :/

 

[Strangelove]

Correct me if I'm missing something, but doesn't the notion that there are answers to be found kind of run counter to the notion that everything is optional?

There's a line from chapter 1 of FFXIII that references an optional event in chapter 11 (

Spoiler

Vanille's "you [Hope] said you liked my smile", the actual scene being easily missed if you don't go to the specific and optional location that triggers it

).

So it's a scene that potentially 'doesn't happen' (= isn't viewed by the player) and is an optional part of the story, but has a reference in the main narrative before it's even seen in the game.

I was trying to make a point, but this argument confuses me enough so I'm just going to stop

And why are you still using quotes that pre-date the Ultimanias in an attempt to trump them?

Time warp

 

[Anastar]

Disclaimer:
1) I do not think that either Clerith or Cloti have been canonized by SE.
2) I argue for Clerith because I agree with that interpretation of the Compilation.
3) I use Clerith interpretations to support optionality by showing that scenes and source materials can be interpreted in other ways than just Cloti.
4) I use official quotes to show that those quotes can be used to support the Clerith interpretation, too - not just Cloti. That does not mean I think that the Clerith interpretation is the only possible interpretation. It means I think that SE doesn't support only one pairing or one version of the Compilation.
5) I am not trying to prove that Cloti is wrong. I'm trying to show that Clerith is a possible interpretation of the Compilation, that Cloti is not the only possible interpretation of the Compilation, that the Clerith interpretation is every bit as valid as the Cloti interpretation, and that the Clerith interpretation can also be supported by official source material - not just Cloti.

Zealkin

Sorry for the delay, but I kept losing the responses that I started writing to you.

At any rate, we were talking here about whether or not koibito in CoLWhite means that the affection between Cloud and Aerith is mutual or one-sided:

It can, but the way that it is used in COLW implies that it is not used mutually.
http://thelifestream.net/forums/show...7&postcount=87

But people have translated it, people that know Japanese, and are native speakers, I guess just look at the link I posted above again.

Well, according to the link you gave, Rydia says that koibito usually means mutual affection, not one-sided:

I've asked several people, Japanese people who I asked in Japanese and they answered in Japanese, about this word and its usage and have never heard this 'one-sided' thing that gets tossed around. It's basically, if you hear this, people are going to assume that it's mutual and that there's two people involved there (since the word itself is talking about the object of affection, not the person doting the affection). ~Rygdia, http://thelifestream.net/forums/showpost.php?p=1217&postcount=87

That implies that koibito's usage in CoLWhite means that Aerith and Cloud have a mutual love interest, not one-sided.

Yes there is, through their hardships, and through their confirmation of mutual feelings you know that it's Cloud. And what of Aerith, don't see a confirmation of her koibito as you've said above yourself.

Since when do hardships confirm a love relationship? It's possible for two people in love to experience hardships together, but two people who are NOT in a love relationship can also experience hardships together. For example, Cloud and Zack were imprisoned in Hojo's lab for 5(?) years together and went through a bunch of trouble together as they escaped - but they weren't in love.

As through the confirmation of mutual feelings, Cloud and Tifa confirm mutual feelings in both the LA and HA version of the HW scene. Both versions completely fit in with the plot line of the Compilation since there's absolutely nothing after the HW scene which confirms whether Cloud is only friends with Tifa or in a romantic relationship with her.

As for Aerith's koibito not being confirmed in CoLWhite, it clearly says that Cloud is Aerith's koibito. I've given other examples of where I believe Clerith love is confirmed, but you don't accept that evidence - just like I don't accept your evidence for Cloti.

So when Tifa opens her heart she's being candid and honest, and no intimacy is implied, yet when the matters of the heart involve Cloud and Aerith it is intimate then?

The quote from page 21 in the Reunion Files says nothing about "matters of the heart". It only says this:

There's only one scene where she opens up and tells Cloud what's going on from her heart. ~RF, page 21

That's obviously talking about the "dilly dally shilly shally" scene, since that's the only scene where she opens up to Cloud. In that scene, she says nothing about feelings of romance. She tells Cloud not to give up even though he's got Geostigma, and that she's willing to help him work through it. Then she says she guesses that only works for real families.

The words she uses in that scene can be said between friends as well as between romantic partners. It does not confirm what kind of relationship they have at all.

But she says it to Cloud not Barrett, it's intimate because of their relationship with one another, and Barrett definitely would not hurt Marlene as much as Cloud has.

Not the point. The point is that Tifa could say the same thing to Barret (or any other friend) in a similar situation. There's nothing in that conversation which can only be said to someone with whom you have a romantic relationship.

One scene does have to happen, and I've explained why the other scene does not fit the bill

Yes, but both versions totally fit what happens in the Compilation after the HW scene. It's just as possible for Cloud to wander around with Tifa, Barret, and Marlene after FFVII if Cloud and Tifa are nothing but friends. It's just as possible for Cloud to agree to start a bar with Barret to sell alcohol if Cloud and Tifa are nothing but friends. It's just as possible for Cloud to build the Seventh Heaven with Barret and Tifa if Cloud and Tifa are nothing but friends. It's just as possible for Cloud to start a delivery service if he and Tifa are nothing but friends. It's just as possible for Cloud to live at the Seventh Heaven in his own room if he and Tifa are nothing but friends. It's just as possible for Marlene to invite Cloud into the family if Cloud and Tifa are nothing but friends. It's just as possible for Cloud to catch Geostigma if Cloud and Tifa are nothing but friends.

I could go on, but that should give you the idea. There's not a single, solitary thing that can ONLY happen if Cloud and Tifa are in a romantic relationship. It's just as possible that Cloud and Tifa are nothing but friends.

it's even listed as one of the most Important scenes of the game

So what? According to Nojima, no one even thought that Tifa's line about "Words aren't the only thing..." would be important when they wrote it:

Interviewer: “Words aren't the only way to tell someone how you feel", that line, right? That's a rather mature conversation for a FF game.
Kitase: "Although I remember we had to tone down a version that was too strong."
Nojima: "The original idea was more extreme. The plan was for Cloud to walk out of the chocobo stable in the airship, followed by Tifa leaving while she kept looking around, but Kitase rejected it. But I think perhaps no one expected that line to be so important [laughs]" ~10th Anniversary Ultimania

So they didn't even think that line was important when they wrote it, which means they didn't think it was important to the story of FFVII. The creators were actually surprised by the reaction of fans. The only thing that makes that scene important is the reaction of fans to it - not what the creators were thinking about the plot when they wrote the scene.

Furthermore, Reminiscence summarized the story of FFVII with the most important scenes pertinent to AC/ACC. There were absolutely no references to the HW scene in Reminiscence or in AC/ACC, which frankly means that the HW scene wasn't pertinent or relevant to AC/ACC at all.

But AC/ACC did include a tribute to the hand reach scene at the end of FFVII, and the hand reach scene was also included in Reminiscence. Cloud saying, "I think I can meet her.... there" was also included in Reminiscence. Also in AC/ACC was a flashback of Aerith's funeral. So I don't think the HW scene is nearly as important as you like to think.

something that the LA scene does not hold a candle to.

Then how come the script of the LA version is in the FFVII UO? How come the deviation is specified in both the 20th AU as well as in the FFVII UO? How come the pic of the HW scene used on the FTOIL page is from both the LA and HA versions?

But Tifa wants more than that, shes been stated to want more than friendship.

Please give me the quote saying that because I've never seen it. I've only seen where it says Tifa loves Cloud, but that doesn't necessarily mean that she wants more than a friendship with him. There are times when a person knows it would be a mistake to get romantically involved with someone.

And when did Barret and Tifa have problems that didn't involve blowing something up?

Off the top of my head, I remember Barret not wanting to pay Cloud more because the money was for Marlene's schooling, and Tifa had to talk him into it. Tifa kept asking Barret not to interrupt Cloud when Cloud was telling them the story in Kalm. Barret asked Tifa in Mideel whether she was sure Cloud wasn't really just a Sephiroth clone. Tifa was upset when Barret said he was going on a journey in CoT. Stuff like that happened between them all the time.

You have said this though:

I think Tifa's the type who would be hopeful and keep dreaming that Cloud may change IF she put herself in that situation. Both Nojima and Nomura even hinted at that in the Reunion Files:

Considering Tifa's background and all she's been through up to this point, she is carrying a huge burden herself. But in this film, you don't get a clear look of what's actually going on inside Tifa's head. ~Nojima, Reunion Files, page 21

Tifa is a strong woman. She doesn't like what Cloud is doing, but instead of lecturing him about every little thing, she's been waiting for him to realize for himself what his actions are doing. ~Nomura, Reunion Files, page 2

That's how we got involved with the guilt and that bar scene because you insisted upon this happening.

Yes, and I stick by what I said there.

I think we're talking about two different things here. I first brought up that scene because it showed Tifa trying to reach out to Cloud, but he rejected her help. You're talking about how Tifa's overcoming her guilt and Cloud is not.

How the two of them are dealing with guilt does take place in CoT. What I'm saying is that the quotes you're using aren't in reference to the scene where Cloud is drinking and Tifa says to "go to your room".

Look up the quote you gave me:

"Tifa was able to cope with the sins in her consciousness. She hadn’t forgotten about them. Someday, the day may come when she will be punished. Until that day came, Tifa was going to look ahead and live. She was going to live, not just taking, but proving that she herself can give too."(CoT)

That quote is on this page in CoT: http://ffviinovels.lhyeung.net/caseoftifa/page08.php
That's when Cloud is just starting the delivery service. He hasn't gotten that order from Elmyra yet, and it's not when he's drinking himself into oblivion. So yes, it's part of CoT, but it's not referring to the scene where Tifa tells him to go drink in his own room.

So sorry, but I think we're talking about two different things.

I have looked it up, I have the sequence right:

I was talking about the sequence in which we find the following quote, which you gave me:

"Tifa was able to cope with the sins in her consciousness. She hadn’t forgotten about them. Someday, the day may come when she will be punished. Until that day came, Tifa was going to look ahead and live. She was going to live, not just taking, but proving that she herself can give too."(CoT) ~quoted by Zealkin, http://thelifestream.net/forums/showpost.php?p=381758&postcount=2157

I replied that that quote is in CoT WAY BEFORE the scene where Cloud is drinking and Tifa says, "Go drink in your room". That is the problem with sequence I was talking about - that quote is not used in reference to the drinking scene.

"During their holiday, Tifa and Marlene were cleaning the room that was now Cloud’s office. There were many slips that laid scattered about unsorted. One of them caught Tifa’s eye. Client Name – Elmyra Gainsborough
Delivery Item – Bouquet
Destination – The Forgotten City
Tifa put the slip away with the others as if nothing happened, but she was trembling severely. Transporting mail around the world meant he was traveling around his past too. She knew that Cloud was in great pain because he couldn’t protect Aerith. Cloud was trying to overcome that and live on. But, going back to the place where he parted from Aerith might mean that his sorrow and regret was going to tear his heart again.
It was night, and they had closed the bar. Cloud was drinking alcohol even though he rarely did. He drained his glass. Tifa thought about it before going over and filling his glass.
“Shall I join you?” There was something she wanted to talk to him about.
“I want to drink alone.”
Hearing that, Tifa lost control and said, “Then drink in your room.” "

She finds the slip, she realizes Cloud may feeling immense guilt traveling everywhere, and she confronts him about it to find him drinking(which he rarely does) She offers to join him but he refuses, he wants to be alone. Why does she not get to wallow and drink her guilt away while Cloud does? She snaps.
This is the situation we are talking about.

And what I said about that situation is that I think it shows that Tifa wanted to help Cloud by offering to have a drink with him - to me, offering to have a drink with him obviously means she wants to talk with him. If she wants to talk with him, then she's trying to reach out to him.

No we're not see above. I did not say she was revealing everything about herself, she reveals everything about Clouds behavior, and how he has acted, immature, irresponsible and him just being a jerk.

But the Reunion Files says she doesn't do that. Page 20 says:

She doesn't like what Cloud is doing, but instead of lecturing him about every little thing, she's been waiting for him to realize for himself what he's doing.... I think that using words to help lead Cloud to his own conclusions instead of constant lecture is a defining quality of Tifa's personality. (Nomura) Page 20, RF

She doesn't do that when she tells him to go drink in his room, either. She also doesn't do that in the "dilly dally shilly shally" scene. So where exactly do you think she does that?

However, page 19 of the Reunion Files does say that Tifa doesn't understand some of the complexities of Cloud's heart, which makes her uneasy. Then it goes on to say that she keeps these feelings to herself for the sake of the children. If she's keeping feelings to herself, then why wouldn't she keep that from Cloud?

For the sake of the children, how are romantic feelings for the sake of children? It's talking about her anger towards everything Cloud has been doing and I reiterated that above.

How is "not understanding the complexities of Cloud's heart" mean that she's angry about everything Cloud has been doing?

Plus, if she's keeping it to herself, she's keeping it to herself - whether it's for the sake of the children, or for the sake of Shinra, or for the sake of whipped cream, I don't care. She's keeping it to herself and WHY she's keeping it to herself doesn't matter. If she's keeping it to herself, then she's not telling Cloud about it.

Also I'd like to note this has nothing to do with me asking for a quote of Cloud not being with Tifa because he loves Aerith.

I discussed that in this post: http://thelifestream.net/forums/showpost.php?p=384842&postcount=2378

No, I didn't leave out the "This was due to" part of the quote - but I think the part I highlighted explains why Tifa has these complicated feelings.

"Nevertheless, it is not hard to imagine that she carries complex feelings as a woman toward Aerith, who had built up a special bond with Cloud that was different from Tifa's."

The quote says right there that Tifa has these complex feelings as a woman [jealousy] toward Aerith because Aerith had built up a special bond with Cloud that was different from Tifa's. It says this right after it says that Tifa and Aerith were love rivals. So that's where the complicated/complex feelings are coming from, not from Cloud's continued guilt.

Quote breakdown time

"Both of them share feelings for Cloud -- Tifa was close to Aerith, who can also be called a love rival. With that point in mind, they were also good friends. Nevertheless, it is not hard to imagine that she carries complex feelings as a woman toward Aerith, who had built up a special bond with Cloud that was different from Tifa's."

So Tifa has complex feelings towards a girl that is her good friend and is also love rival. Jealous of a bond that she did not have with Cloud(what that bond is is not specified)

First of all, even after your quote breakdown, I still see it the same way. Please bear that in mind while I answer different points that you made.

1) The bond is not specified. True. But what feelings are shared in the HW scene are not specified, either. So my assumption about the bond between Aerith and Cloud being love is as valid as your assumption about Cloud and Tifa sharing feelings of love under the HW.
2) It makes the most sense for Tifa to be jealous of a bond of love between Aerith and Cloud if Aerith and Tifa are love rivals. Would it make sense for Tifa to be jealous of a bond of friendship if Aerith and Tifa are love rivals?

"Tifa's complicated feelings continue even in AC, two years after Aerith had departed the world."

complicated feelings okay, she had them towards Aerith, but she cannot be a love rival at this point because she is well deceased. so what could they
be?

In the world of FFVII, Aerith can be a love rival even though she's deceased because Aerith and Cloud can touch one another, see one another, and communicate with one another in AC/ACC. There is nothing to prove that this relationship does not continue between Cloud and Aerith after AC/ACC.

This was due to the fact that Cloud, succumbing to the notion that Aerith's death was his fault and condemning himself, construed that Denzel was "the child which Aerith brought here" and took care of him.

edit: Why would the previous paragraph tell us more about why she's carrying those feelings in AC/C than the very next sentence, which begins with "This was due to the fact"?
So Tifa has complicated feelings towards Aerith in Advent Chldren because of Clouds guilt and his want of redemption through Denzel. Where are there love rival feeling here?

In the first place, the sentence structure actually says:

This was due to the fact that Cloud construed that Denzel was "the child which Aerith brought here" and took care of him.

I don't remember the exact grammatical terminology, but I believe the phrase in between the commas is called an independent clause. It is merely additional information. The main clause is saying that Cloud construed that Denzel was the child that Aerith brought to him. That would be reason enough for Tifa to be jealous if Tifa considers Aerith to be a love rival.

However, I still think that the reason for Tifa's jealousy is explained in this sentence:

Nevertheless, it is not hard to imagine that she carries complex feelings as a woman toward Aerith, who had built up a special bond with Cloud that was different from Tifa's.

I think it's explained there because that's where it brings up Aerith and Tifa being love rivals. That's the best place to explain it.

The second paragraph then goes on to give further information about why Tifa's jealous: 1) Cloud thinks that Aerith brought Denzel to him, and 2) Cloud has been visiting Aerith's church.

In addition, Cloud had also gone away to the church that Aerith had been in. The thing which she is unable to hide in her irritation towards Cloud is the factthat he isn't merely dragging the past around, but because that reason might perhaps be related to Aerith."

Her complicated feelings continue when his guilt leads him to places Aerith was

Where does it say that it was Cloud's guilt that led him to the Church? It says that Tifa is irritated because Cloud isn't merely dragging the past around (his guilt) - so his guilt isn't the only reason.

but because that reason might also be related to Aerith. - So in addition to the guilt that Cloud is dragging around, Cloud may still be in love with Aerith, and this makes Tifa jealous.

and was dragging the past around(while traveling all across Gaia) and was also dragging around something else related to Aerith, which is a guilt that is bubbling up inside of Cloud.

That's merely your interpretation.

Now where does it say even what that bond WAS I'm going to use your card, feeling of the HA highwind aren't described as love, so what makes you think this bond is?

CoLWhite, for one.

Kitase: When I first read Nojima’s scenario, I felt strongly that his image of a heroine was fresh. The hero didn’t have a typical personality, single-minded or righteous, and Aerith lived in the slums. Those things were really fresh. And having two heroines, Aerith and Tifa, and having the hero waver between them, at the time that was something new. ~Interview with the creators, pg. 8-13, 10th Anniversary Ultimania

Young, beautiful, and somewhat mysterious, Aerith met Cloud while selling flowers on the streets of Midgar. She decided to join him soon after. Her unusual abilities enable her to use magic, but she seems more interested in the deepening love triangle between herself, Cloud and Tifa. ~Aerith's profile, FFVII game manual

I've given other quotes in previous posts. Do I need to repeat them?

But the one that is noted to be one of the most important scenes of the game must be relevant. One scene happened and until a quote is found of the LA scene communicating ANYTHING it's the HA scene that happened.

I already discussed that extensively in my last post to you:

http://thelifestream.net/forums/showpost.php?p=384842&postcount=2378

Then why can't you just use other sources that you do trust to prove what I'm, saying is false then? And again just because Tifa understand Cloud best does not mean that she understands everything about him and his bad behavior, she doesn't voice anything about his behavior at first for the children's sake.

I believe I answered this earlier in the post.

 

[Celes Chere]

Disclaimer:

You don't have to put it every time we read it the first time

There is nothing to prove that this relationship does not continue between Cloud and Aerith after AC/ACC.

...And there's no proof that it continues. Aerith fades away and returns to the Lifestream after AC/ACC. You believe maiden is canon, so even that work of writing states Aerith returns to the Lifestream and does not come back. Aerith can not just appear to Cloud. I thought this was established... if Aerith could do that, why doesn't she come and visit Cloud whenever she wants? And though she can touch him, there is not a shred of evidence to prove that Cloud actually feels it. I mean she's a spirit ffs. Come on now...
Also if you're going to use jealousy against Tifa, remember that Aerith was also jealous of Tifa for being the only one able to help Cloud during the LS scene. Tifa is also jealous when only Aerith is able to reach Cloud sometimes.That doesn't necessarily mean she thinks he's in love with Aerith.

 

[Master Bates]

There is nothing to prove that this relationship does not continue between Cloud and Aerith after AC/ACC.

It's pointless to prove a negative. Besides, isn't the right thing to do at debates is to provide evidence that supports your claim? Since you claim it to be so, it is just right for you to prove it so.

Furthermore, there is more evidence within the canon that's basically against this stand of yours. There is much more reason to believe against this point, just saying.

"AC and DC both have their own resolutions, so don't expect cliff-hangers there. Also, DC isn't the direct sequel to FFVII, Advent Children is. So we can't view DC as the ending to the whole big FFVII saga. Plus, FFVII definitely has so many diverse elements, and different fans have interest in different characters, so if, for example, one person is interested in Cloud, Tifa, and Aerith's relationship, then AC may provide some sort of answers for them. Somebody else might be interested in Vincent, so they might want to explore DC. It's not like this is going to complete the whole story, but it will satisfy fans who have strong attachments to individual characters." ~ Kitase, Electronic Gaming Monthly, issue #196, October 2005.

I put the entire statement, so I wouldn't be accused of the dreaded quote mining.

Kitase said we, the viewers, can find some sort of answers (plural!) for ourselves. That makes it clear there isn't one definite answer. No canon. Therefore, the LT wasn't over by Advent Children.

Yes, answers. That C/T is canon, Aerith (along with Zack) says her goodbye and returns to the LS where she belong.

Those are pretty much answers if you ask me.

 

[Dashell]

Okay I'm going to start adding a disclaimer now too, here it is:

Disclaimer:

1. It's a commercial made by a third party.
2. The burden is on YOU to prove your points, not for us to disprove them.

There is nothing to prove that this relationship does not continue between Cloud and Aerith after AC/ACC.

Dude, please stop asking us to prove negatives. It's ridonkulous. Prove to me that invisible elves don't exist. Prove to me aliens didn't visit Egypt and build the pyramids. Prove to me that Ryu isn't a robot. You can't do it, but that doesn't make it plausible.


EDIT
Also Anastar, is there any reason you don't use notepad or wordpad to save your posts in so you don't lose them? I do it all the time. It's so much easier than relying on a browser.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Prove to me aliens didn't visit Egypt and build the pyramids.

So, Anastar, I guess you won't be acknowledging the responses Quexinos got from people who have said the "communicate their feelings" quotes are all romantic, huh? Despite your hard-on for input from folks outside the LTD?

Can I see a show of hands from those who are surprised by this?

Really, no one? Yeah, me neither.

Well, according to the link you gave, Rydia says that koibito usually means mutual affection, not one-sided:

I've asked several people, Japanese people who I asked in Japanese and they answered in Japanese, about this word and its usage and have never heard this 'one-sided' thing that gets tossed around. It's basically, if you hear this, people are going to assume that it's mutual and that there's two people involved there (since the word itself is talking about the object of affection, not the person doting the affection). ~Rygdia, http://thelifestream.net/forums/showpost.php?p=1217&postcount=87

That implies that koibito's usage in CoLWhite means that Aerith and Cloud have a mutual love interest, not one-sided.

Aaand, as always, you say this without any consideration to what it would mean for the "koibito" comment in the Reunion Files.

As for Aerith's koibito not being confirmed in CoLWhite, it clearly says that Cloud is Aerith's koibito.

Yes, but it's Cloud's koibito who isn't identified in Case of the Lifestream White. The one who is the koibito is the one that is beloved.

I don't know how it is that you still don't get this.

So what? According to Nojima, no one even thought that Tifa's line about "Words aren't the only thing..." would be important when they wrote it:

Interviewer: “Words aren't the only way to tell someone how you feel", that line, right? That's a rather mature conversation for a FF game.
Kitase: "Although I remember we had to tone down a version that was too strong."
Nojima: "The original idea was more extreme. The plan was for Cloud to walk out of the chocobo stable in the airship, followed by Tifa leaving while she kept looking around, but Kitase rejected it. But I think perhaps no one expected that line to be so important [laughs]" ~10th Anniversary Ultimania

So they didn't even think that line was important when they wrote it, which means they didn't think it was important to the story of FFVII.

Is this going to be like the thing where SE says Cloud was happy with Tifa and the kids and you're like, "Uh, no, he wasn't, SE. What you say isn't official"?

Any particular reason you're ignoring the placement of "so" in front of "important" in that sentence? Isn't there quite a world of difference between it being there and not being there, particularly given the context Nojima was using it in (the obvious reference to fandom disputes, which you mentioned)?

The creators were actually surprised by the reaction of fans. The only thing that makes that scene important is the reaction of fans to it - not what the creators were thinking about the plot when they wrote the scene.

Don't suppose you can prove that, can you? No, didn't think so.

Furthermore, Reminiscence summarized the story of FFVII with the most important scenes pertinent to AC/ACC. There were absolutely no references to the HW scene in Reminiscence or in AC/ACC, which frankly means that the HW scene wasn't pertinent or relevant to AC/ACC at all.

You're aware that the date sequence isn't in there either, right? Is that unimportant?

That one scene in the game that got a whole section of the Ultimania Omega devoted to is unimportant, huh?

This is just another example of your mercurial positioning that shifts to support whatever claim you want to make at a given moment. Just like the "koibito" thing up there.

You're going to insist that "koibito" usually means mutual feelings, and so probably does there, but won't even acknowledge the Reunion Files quote while backing that horse.

But AC/ACC did include a tribute to the hand reach scene at the end of FFVII, and the hand reach scene was also included in Reminiscence.

And AC/ACC included a reference to Cloud and Tifa's promise ("Sorry I'm late"), which was also in Reminiscence (within the first minute and a half, actually). So, what's your point?

For that matter, there's nothing inherently romantic about the hand reach scene, while the promise actually had a romantic element.

Not that I'm saying the scene where it came up in AC/C was romantic. I'm just pointing out the double-standard you're pushing for here.

Cloud saying, "I think I can meet her.... there" was also included in Reminiscence.

Again, is it romantic?

Also in AC/ACC was a flashback of Aerith's funeral.

Nothing says romance like a funeral.

So I don't think the HW scene is nearly as important as you like to think.

SE disagrees with you. Just like they disagree with you about whether Cloud was happy at home. Get over it.

Then how come the script of the LA version is in the FFVII UO?

Because damn near every optional exchange in the game has its script in the UO. It's an extremely thorough book. With which your unfamiliarity becomes more and more obvious as time goes by.

How come the deviation is specified in both the 20th AU as well as in the FFVII UO?

Attention to detail?

How come the pic of the HW scene used on the FTOIL page is from both the LA and HA versions?

Yeah, you don't want to go there. Because if you're trying to establish an equivocation between the two versions on a page that says something romantic occurred, you're not really helping your case.

By the way, where do you get off asking anyone this question when you won't acknowledge the presence of the high affection screenshot in the 10th AU's Story Playback? What makes you a special snowflake?

Please give me the quote saying that because I've never seen it. I've only seen where it says Tifa loves Cloud, but that doesn't necessarily mean that she wants more than a friendship with him. There are times when a person knows it would be a mistake to get romantically involved with someone.

There's your laughable double-standards again. Where's a quote saying Aerith wants more than friendship with Cloud, huh?

To throw your own logic back your way, maybe she decided that getting involved with a guy who she became interested in because of a previous boyfriend was a bad idea. Can I prove this? No, it's bullshit, because Aerith wanted to ride his Buster Sword -- but you can't meet your own indefensible standard on this point, as with so many other double-standards you use.

Off the top of my head, I remember Barret not wanting to pay Cloud more because the money was for Marlene's schooling, and Tifa had to talk him into it. Tifa kept asking Barret not to interrupt Cloud when Cloud was telling them the story in Kalm. Barret asked Tifa in Mideel whether she was sure Cloud wasn't really just a Sephiroth clone. Tifa was upset when Barret said he was going on a journey in CoT. Stuff like that happened between them all the time.

Yeah, that's totally comparable to abandoning one's family to go die alone in a place that made the pre-Meteor slums look like prime real estate.

1) The bond is not specified. True. But what feelings are shared in the HW scene are not specified, either.

Keep on spinning that broken record.

2) It makes the most sense for Tifa to be jealous of a bond of love between Aerith and Cloud if Aerith and Tifa are love rivals. Would it make sense for Tifa to be jealous of a bond of friendship if Aerith and Tifa are love rivals?

It makes pretty good sense for Tifa to be jealous of their closeness when they want the same guy and Aerith is able to easily communicate with him, whereas she can't bring herself to say anything to him she'd like to -- romantic feelings, concerns about his memories, etc.

In the world of FFVII, Aerith can be a love rival even though she's deceased because Aerith and Cloud can touch one another, see one another, and communicate with one another in AC/ACC.

Had Cloud been doing that in the two years between FFVII and AC/C? No. Did Tifa have any reason to believe it was even possible? No.

So, tell me again why she's jealous of Cloud and Aerith's necro sessions.

There is nothing to prove that this relationship does not continue between Cloud and Aerith after AC/ACC.

REALLY? The complete lack of any contact whatsoever for two years wouldn't do that?

And that's even being generous enough to suppose there was something going on while she was alive.

However, I still think that the reason for Tifa's jealousy is explained in this sentence:

Nevertheless, it is not hard to imagine that she carries complex feelings as a woman toward Aerith, who had built up a special bond with Cloud that was different from Tifa's.

I think it's explained there because that's where it brings up Aerith and Tifa being love rivals. That's the best place to explain it.

The presence of a sentence saying "This is due to the fact" means you're wrong.

In the first place, the sentence structure actually says:

This was due to the fact that Cloud construed that Denzel was "the child which Aerith brought here" and took care of him.

I don't remember the exact grammatical terminology, but I believe the phrase in between the commas is called an independent clause. It is merely additional information. The main clause is saying that Cloud construed that Denzel was the child that Aerith brought to him. That would be reason enough for Tifa to be jealous if Tifa considers Aerith to be a love rival.

Any particular reason you left the "succumbing to the notion that Aerith’s death was his fault and condemning himself" clause out of there, even though it explains Cloud's thought processes, which lead to the actions that piss Tifa off?

The second paragraph then goes on to give further information about why Tifa's jealous: 1) Cloud thinks that Aerith brought Denzel to him, and 2) Cloud has been visiting Aerith's church.

1) The reason he thinks Aerith brought the kid to him couldn't possibly be the cause of Tifa being bothered about that? Even though Cloud thinks it's because she blamed him for her death and sent him this kid to take care of to make up for it? 2) He had left home to go stay there at this point; that's what's mentioned here.

Where does it say that it was Cloud's guilt that led him to the Church?

Are you fucking kidding?

Nomura, in the AC Prologue book's 3N interview:

(translation by hito, I think)

Nojima: "Cloud never had a candid personality to begin with, and although he started living with Tifa and even started working, he obtained a peaceful living he's never experienced before, and this conversely made him anxious. And in the midst of this he contracts Geostigma himself, and rather than being able to protect the people dear to him, he instead was forced to face his own death, and so ran away."

Nomura: "Even though he found peace, Cloud has lost a lot of people dear to him up until this point. Not only that, but looking at Cloud's history, this is the first time he's experienced a 'peaceful' environment in the true sense of the word. Cloud is a character who will always keep thinking, regardless of what's going on around him."

And another, from the October 2005 issue of Shonen Gangan:

-- So, why has Cloud separated himself from his friends?

Nomura: "Cloud is scared that the peace he has now might shatter, so he is living on his own."

-- Why?

Nomura: "In the past he meet Zack, his best friend, and Aerith, someone who was important to him, but he lost them, so wonders if his present peace will also shatter one day... Since something might happen while he's around, he left everyone behind and is doing delivery work on his own."

From Cloud's 10th AU profile:

Now running a delivery business while helping out Tifa with the newly opened “Seventh Heaven” bar, Cloud, Tifa, Marlene and Denzel lived together like a family. However, when Cloud contracts Geostigma he disappears. Behind these actions lies feelings of guilt towards his past failure to protect people who were important to him, but through his battle with Kadaj’s gang, the legacy of Jenova, he regains the courage to face reality.

...

Because he contracted Geostigma, he left Tifa and the children, and began living in the Slum church.

From Aerith's 10th AU profile:

Two years after returning to the planet, Aerith still lives on in the hearts of her friends who saved the planet. And in particular to Cloud, as a symbol of his failure to having being unable protect those dear to him, she was a major factor in causing him to close himself off.

And, you know, how about that damn wolf that appears in places related to Zack and Aerith?

Do you have a single quote saying that Cloud went to Aerith's church because he had romantic feelings for her? No, you don't! Get over it.

Now where does it say even what that bond WAS I'm going to use your card, feeling of the HA highwind aren't described as love, so what makes you think this bond is?

CoLWhite, for one.

There's that fabulous double-standard of yours again. "Bond" must mean "romantic love" where it's related to Cloud and Aerith, but "communicated feelings" can't mean that when it involves Cloud and Tifa -- even if the phrase itself is used to refer to romantic situations.





Not that you're going to read or respond to any of this, being that you're a coward (independent clause so it's not relevant information! lololololol ), but whatever.

 

[Dashell]

So, Anastar, I guess you won't be acknowledging the responses Quexinos got from people who have said the "communicate their feelings" quotes are all romantic, huh? Despite your hard-on for input from folks outside the LTD?

Can I see a show of hands from those who are surprised by this?

Really, no one? Yeah, me neither.

To be fair, Zealkin probably hasn't sent that to her yet since I found out after that huge post she posted and Zealkin hasn't responded to it yet (or it was like a day before or something), and I haven't sent it either.

So they didn't even think that line was important when they wrote it, which means they didn't think it was important to the story of FFVII.

No they didn't think it'd be "SO" important. They thought it was important, but not as important as it ended up being. It'd be like if I said, "I didn't think the new pizza would be so popular." That doesn't mean I didn't think it'd be popular at all, I just didn't think it'd be as popular as it ended up being.

I mean, "Okay this scene isn't important so let's put in on the most impressive scenes page"... I mean that just doesn't make a lot of sense

2) It makes the most sense for Tifa to be jealous of a bond of love between Aerith and Cloud if Aerith and Tifa are love rivals. Would it make sense for Tifa to be jealous of a bond of friendship if Aerith and Tifa are love rivals?

Is this a bad time to mention my BF has said he's jealous of the bond me and my brother share? I'm not sure I want to go there

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

To be fair, Zealkin probably hasn't sent that to her yet since I found out after that huge post she posted and Zealkin hasn't responded to it yet (or it was like a day before or something), and I haven't sent it either.

Oh.

Well, I just sent them to her.

 

[Ryushikaze]

SE has only said that "feelings" were shared in the HW scene, not romantic feelings. Whenever SE says that "strong feelings" were shared, they specify that those feelings were shared in the HA version. Note that SE never says that romantic feelings were shared or that love was shared in the HA version - they only say "strong feelings".

Even though the feelings are romantic ones in 7 of the 8 examples we have.

The only source which specifies "love" is the FTOIL page. The FTOIL page says "love" in a title and caption which also appears over the Clerith date scene. Both the HW scene and the Clerith Date scene are specified as optional.

Keep repeating that. Maybe, eventually, you'll actually beleive it.

You're stating that no feelings are shared in the LA version when SE has never said that no feelings are shared in the LA version. That's only your assumption.

Apathetic or indifferent scenes and conversations have no feelings. Also, the apathetic version was contrasted in the UO to the scene that actually has feelings. QED.

I'm still confused - is it "candid" or "apathetic"?

Apathetic. It's more in line with the definition of candid meaning 'free of prejudice or impartial' than 'open and straightforward.

Because that's like, the sledgehammer of canon.

A listing of the events that occurred in the narrative IS telling you the canon with a sledgehammer.

'Hey Cloud, remember when we didn't have sex underneath the highwind?'

Again, does Tifa have to go "Hey, remember when we fucked" for it to have happened? You did not answer that question.

Did not mean that, smarty.

That IS what your logic results in, however.

You just went the Holocron on me.

Yes. I did. Do you agree or disagree that it and Ultimanias inform the original games and movies, including statements of what happened and did not?

Okay. Am I, as a Halo player, required to read the Halo Encyclopedia?

If you want to know what actually happens in the story, yes. To Halo, Games are not canon. They resemble, but are not, the actual events. Pillar of Autumn is not 17 miles long, or however long the last level is, for example.

Eh, I just think the HA version is weird altogether. It doesn't explain anything to me. If anything, it raises more questions.

Such as?
And really, how does it not explain shit? It hands you explanations on a platter.

God forbid anything get past Ryu.

Uh, wow, that was unnecessarily hostile.

Enjoy that fuckery.

That too.

Batman's always pissed. He'll adjust.

Yes. By taking it out on you.

I'm suppressing the mental images.

Well, which is it?

If it's nothing, why do these things go on for hundreds of pages?

Hey, it was your analogy in the firstplace.
Pus, SW V ST's gone on for decades.

How darkly ironic.

Er.... How?

That's so sad.

How is it sad that she has a mind of her own?

Your sexy bird is tragic.

No, she's not. She's a wonderful sexy bird and doesn't need to change her hobby at all. Especially given how informative and amusing it is.
Besides, if she needs a new hobby, so do all of your lurkers.

I wasn't there so I can't comment. But I'm sorry if he was given a hard time.

It's not that he was given a hard time. It's that he suddenly couldn't be trusted for translating any longer, just because what he said didn't sound like what they wanted to hear.

I fail to see how it's canonizing C/T.

The Koibito quote in RF? It tells us that one of Tifa's roles in the world- one of things that's part of her life- is someone's beloved. From there, it is a hop, skip, and cut with Okkam's razor to determine who loves her and would be worth mentioning as part of her life.

I myself think it's her own feeling as opposed to both of theirs, but I have to ask, where does the context say Cloud doesn't feel the same?

It's not about Cloud not feeling and everything to do with Cloud explicitly not KNOWING. At no point during Aerith's life did Cloud know Aerith's feelings for him- he didn't know Tifa's until later as well- meaning he could not have been her lover or boyfriend. Using the word in the mutual sense would require there to have actually been a relationship, and there never was.

Aw hey, that's nice. Thank you for offering.


-------------------------------

"AC and DC both have their own resolutions, so don't expect cliff-hangers there. Also, DC isn't the direct sequel to FFVII, Advent Children is. So we can't view DC as the ending to the whole big FFVII saga. Plus, FFVII definitely has so many diverse elements, and different fans have interest in different characters, so if, for example, one person is interested in Cloud, Tifa, and Aerith's relationship, then AC may provide some sort of answers for them. Somebody else might be interested in Vincent, so they might want to explore DC. It's not like this is going to complete the whole story, but it will satisfy fans who have strong attachments to individual characters." ~ Kitase, Electronic Gaming Monthly, issue #196, October 2005.

I put the entire statement, so I wouldn't be accused of the dreaded quote mining.

Kitase said we, the viewers, can find some sort of answers (plural!) for ourselves. That makes it clear there isn't one definite answer. No canon. Therefore, the LT wasn't over by Advent Children.

You keep reading 'answers' as 'multiple answers on the same subject' as opposed to 'answers about different related subjects'
Why is that? Also, Kitase said provide answers, not 'find for ourselves.'

O'Doyle rules.

(Let me guess. Someone found a loophole in this interview and it isn't legitimate? )

No. We disagree with the way you read the interview because you seem to think that 'answers' means 'two opposing answers to the same question' when pretty much no one uses it that way.
And the LT was over long before AC. The LTD is a different matter.

That implies that koibito's usage in CoLWhite means that Aerith and Cloud have a mutual love interest, not one-sided.

Except that the use of Koibito in the mutual sense requires an actualized relationship, and so would be wrong.

As through the confirmation of mutual feelings, Cloud and Tifa confirm mutual feelings in both the LA and HA version of the HW scene. Both versions completely fit in with the plot line of the Compilation since there's absolutely nothing after the HW scene which confirms whether Cloud is only friends with Tifa or in a romantic relationship with her.

Once again, Anastar flip flops on whether she sees HAHW as romantic of not.

As for Aerith's koibito not being confirmed in CoLWhite, it clearly says that Cloud is Aerith's koibito. I've given other examples of where I believe Clerith love is confirmed, but you don't accept that evidence - just like I don't accept your evidence for Cloti.

No, it says who the woman's beloved it. It tells us nothing of who Cloud's beloved is.

That's obviously talking about the "dilly dally shilly shally" scene, since that's the only scene where she opens up to Cloud. In that scene, she says nothing about feelings of romance. She tells Cloud not to give up even though he's got Geostigma, and that she's willing to help him work through it. Then she says she guesses that only works for real families.

So, you CAN understand context... when it suits you.

Yes, but both versions totally fit what happens in the Compilation after the HW scene. It's just as possible for Cloud to wander around with Tifa, Barret, and Marlene after FFVII if Cloud and Tifa are nothing but friends. It's just as possible for Cloud to agree to start a bar with Barret to sell alcohol if Cloud and Tifa are nothing but friends. It's just as possible for Cloud to build the Seventh Heaven with Barret and Tifa if Cloud and Tifa are nothing but friends. It's just as possible for Cloud to start a delivery service if he and Tifa are nothing but friends. It's just as possible for Cloud to live at the Seventh Heaven in his own room if he and Tifa are nothing but friends. It's just as possible for Marlene to invite Cloud into the family if Cloud and Tifa are nothing but friends. It's just as possible for Cloud to catch Geostigma if Cloud and Tifa are nothing but friends.

You keep harping on possible. Try plausible.

I could go on, but that should give you the idea. There's not a single, solitary thing that can ONLY happen if Cloud and Tifa are in a romantic relationship. It's just as possible that Cloud and Tifa are nothing but friends.

But it's not plausible. It's extremely unlikely, especially given we know Tifa's still interested.

So what? According to Nojima, no one even thought that Tifa's line about "Words aren't the only thing..." would be important when they wrote it:

Interviewer: “Words aren't the only way to tell someone how you feel", that line, right? That's a rather mature conversation for a FF game.
Kitase: "Although I remember we had to tone down a version that was too strong."
Nojima: "The original idea was more extreme. The plan was for Cloud to walk out of the chocobo stable in the airship, followed by Tifa leaving while she kept looking around, but Kitase rejected it. But I think perhaps no one expected that line to be so important [laughs]" ~10th Anniversary Ultimania

So they didn't even think that line was important when they wrote it, which means they didn't think it was important to the story of FFVII. The creators were actually surprised by the reaction of fans. The only thing that makes that scene important is the reaction of fans to it - not what the creators were thinking about the plot when they wrote the scene.

You keep ignoring modifiers to adjectives. 'THAT close' 'SO important'
Those modifiers matter, Annie.

Furthermore, Reminiscence summarized the story of FFVII with the most important scenes pertinent to AC/ACC. There were absolutely no references to the HW scene in Reminiscence or in AC/ACC, which frankly means that the HW scene wasn't pertinent or relevant to AC/ACC at all.

And as mentioned, the dates weren't, but the promise was.

But AC/ACC did include a tribute to the hand reach scene at the end of FFVII, and the hand reach scene was also included in Reminiscence. Cloud saying, "I think I can meet her.... there" was also included in Reminiscence. Also in AC/ACC was a flashback of Aerith's funeral. So I don't think the HW scene is nearly as important as you like to think.

I just think they couldn't show it in ACC without an R or NC-17 rating.

Then how come the script of the LA version is in the FFVII UO? How come the deviation is specified in both the 20th AU as well as in the FFVII UO?

Every single deviation IN THE GAME is in the UO.

How come the pic of the HW scene used on the FTOIL page is from both the LA and HA versions?

Because Romance is what happened that night, period, end of speech.

Please give me the quote saying that because I've never seen it. I've only seen where it says Tifa loves Cloud, but that doesn't necessarily mean that she wants more than a friendship with him. There are times when a person knows it would be a mistake to get romantically involved with someone.

You really need a quote for this now?
Alright, give me a quote that says Aerith didn't go back to spirit!dating Zack post ACC. Give me a quote saying Red XIII doesn't have a human fetish.

Off the top of my head, I remember Barret not wanting to pay Cloud more because the money was for Marlene's schooling, and Tifa had to talk him into it. Tifa kept asking Barret not to interrupt Cloud when Cloud was telling them the story in Kalm. Barret asked Tifa in Mideel whether she was sure Cloud wasn't really just a Sephiroth clone. Tifa was upset when Barret said he was going on a journey in CoT. Stuff like that happened between them all the time.

Those are your 'problems' between those two? Fuck, if that's the level of problems C/T are having, why the fuck are we worried about their relationships?

Yes, and I stick by what I said there.

THUS you agree she wants a relationship with him.
AND demonstrate you cannot follow a conversation.

First of all, even after your quote breakdown, I still see it the same way. Please bear that in mind while I answer different points that you made.

1) The bond is not specified. True. But what feelings are shared in the HW scene are not specified, either. So my assumption about the bond between Aerith and Cloud being love is as valid as your assumption about Cloud and Tifa sharing feelings of love under the HW.

In this vein, the COMPLEX FEELINGS aren't specified. So our assumption that they're longing for Aerith because Tifa wants to tap that too and it thus conflicted because her love interest is hitting on her other love interest making her a love rival gets interesting is also just as valid as your assumption about jealousy.

[qote]2) It makes the most sense for Tifa to be jealous of a bond of love between Aerith and Cloud if Aerith and Tifa are love rivals. Would it make sense for Tifa to be jealous of a bond of friendship if Aerith and Tifa are love rivals?[/quote]

Assuming it's jealousy, it's not the bond she has to be jealous of, though. She can be jealous of Aerith being able to express herself.

In the world of FFVII, Aerith can be a love rival even though she's deceased because Aerith and Cloud can touch one another, see one another, and communicate with one another in AC/ACC. There is nothing to prove that this relationship does not continue between Cloud and Aerith after AC/ACC.

There's also nothing to prove Barret and Vincent aren't secretly meeting in the woods to watch Nanaki perform shakespeare.
Stop asking us to prove a negative. I hope my absurd examples have demonstrated how fucktarded this line of thinking is.

In the first place, the sentence structure actually says:

This was due to the fact that Cloud construed that Denzel was "the child which Aerith brought here" and took care of him.

I don't remember the exact grammatical terminology, but I believe the phrase in between the commas is called an independent clause. It is merely additional information. The main clause is saying that Cloud construed that Denzel was the child that Aerith brought to him. That would be reason enough for Tifa to be jealous if Tifa considers Aerith to be a love rival.

Uh. Wow, you fail English. That's a DEPENDENT Clause. It requires the rest of the sentence to make sense, lacking a subject of its own. It definitely belongs there. It modifies the existing sentence.

However, I still think that the reason for Tifa's jealousy is explained in this sentence:

Nevertheless, it is not hard to imagine that she carries complex feelings as a woman toward Aerith, who had built up a special bond with Cloud that was different from Tifa's.

I think it's explained there because that's where it brings up Aerith and Tifa being love rivals. That's the best place to explain it.

The second paragraph then goes on to give further information about why Tifa's jealous: 1) Cloud thinks that Aerith brought Denzel to him, and 2) Cloud has been visiting Aerith's church.

The second paragraph explains the comple feelings of two years later, using the phrase, 'this is due to the fact'
It is not the same set of complex feelings from two years prior. Different causes.

Where does it say that it was Cloud's guilt that led him to the Church? It says that Tifa is irritated because Cloud isn't merely dragging the past around (his guilt) - so his guilt isn't the only reason.

but because that reason might also be related to Aerith. - So in addition to the guilt that Cloud is dragging around, Cloud may still be in love with Aerith, and this makes Tifa jealous.

Not just because Cloud is guilty.... but because he's guilty about Aerith. So her feelings are complex because her best friend is also the cause of Cloud's self destruction.

That's merely your interpretation.

It's an interpretation that fits the facts and is far more parsimonious than any of yours.

CoLWhite, for one.

A woman has a crush on Cloud in COLW. Where's the bond?

Kitase: When I first read Nojima’s scenario, I felt strongly that his image of a heroine was fresh. The hero didn’t have a typical personality, single-minded or righteous, and Aerith lived in the slums. Those things were really fresh. And having two heroines, Aerith and Tifa, and having the hero waver between them, at the time that was something new. ~Interview with the creators, pg. 8-13, 10th Anniversary Ultimania

Young, beautiful, and somewhat mysterious, Aerith met Cloud while selling flowers on the streets of Midgar. She decided to join him soon after. Her unusual abilities enable her to use magic, but she seems more interested in the deepening love triangle between herself, Cloud and Tifa. ~Aerith's profile, FFVII game manual

I've given other quotes in previous posts. Do I need to repeat them?

You need to give us something that says something about Cloud loving Aerith, for once. You keep telling us Aerith likes Cloud, that she wants to deepen the love triangle of her and Tifa both loving Cloud- that, BTW, is all it takes for her to be a love rival- and that Cloud is stuck between them.
You ASSUME Cloud's love. You always fucking have.
You use Aerith's love to prove Cloud loves her back.
Stop doing that. It's stupid and dishonest and you'd rightly call foul if we seriously tried to do the same with Tifa's love for Cloud.

Oh, and Quex, neither I nor the sexy bird appreciate your laughing at Aerbear's comment. In the future, Don't.

 

[Dashell]

Alright, since I'm being called out in public

Oh, and Quex, neither I nor the sexy bird appreciate your laughing at Aerbear's comment. In the future, Don't.

It's nice that you stand up for your GF like that, but I was laughing at but the fact that Aerbear repeated the term "sexy bird." I don't care if anyone looks at other forums for things, I do it all the time, so she can do what she wants. If I meant to insult her in any way, I wouldn't have posted it for everyone to see. But I apologize if I offended either of you.

and just so this doesn't get removed:
Uhm... idk


Nanaki didn't mention his dad in AC/C... guess his dad isn't important... or something.

 

[Strangelove]

Am I missing something with all this 'laughing at' stuff?


ontopic: no one mentioned Mukki in AC/C, so I guess he's not important. Noooooo.

moreontopic: does anyone have a page number for where the UO is supposed to call the scene with Mukki 'risqué' (which was used to dismiss the use in the staff interview about the Hingwind scene)? I've just been working through that part of the book, but didn't see anything like that and not the same word used, but maybe I missed something.

 

[Dashell]

does anyone have a page number for where the UO is supposed to call the scene with Mukki 'risqué' (which was used to dismiss the use in the staff interview about the Hingwind scene)?

Why? The scene with Mukki was risqué. How would that dismiss the Highwind scene risqué thing?