The Love Triangle Debate thread of KNEEL BEFORE ZOD OR SUFFER HIS WRATH (ignore the opening posts at your peril) (Round 6)

[Strangelove]

Because lolz, they're using it with the 'let's laugh at the gay guy' scene so obviously it must not mean anything serious for Cloud and Tifa unless you think it did there too.

 

[Alessa Gillespie]

Furthermore, Reminiscence summarized the story of FFVII with the most important scenes pertinent to AC/ACC. There were absolutely no references to the HW scene in Reminiscence or in AC/ACC, which frankly means that the HW scene wasn't pertinent or relevant to AC/ACC at all.

but it does contain explicit references to the lifestream and promise sequences which are both pretty romantic cloti references idk

 

[Octo]

Because lolz, they're using it with the 'let's laugh at the gay guy' scene so obviously it must not mean anything serious for Cloud and Tifa unless you think it did there too.

It totally did! Because to get the Mukki scene Cloud chooses the 'group room' which shows that he wants to have sex with other people, other people other than Tifa that is! Later Tifa can smell the baby oil on him and this lowers her affection level!

The Mukki scene is actually the most risque in the whole game, even more than the planned Highwind Chocobo Stable scene.

 

[Danseru-kun]

There is nothing to prove that this relationship does not continue between Cloud and Aerith after AC/ACC.

There is nothing to prove that Iraq has no nuclear weapons.
There is nothing to prove that Cloud is not compensating something with his Buster Sword.
There is nothing to prove that Sephiroth does not hate Aerith for imitating his bangs.


Seriously, this argumentation only works for crack theories and the phrasing of proving a negative makes debates more confusing. Also in a more serious note, this is the equivalent of a person being "guilty until proven innocent." You would make a terrible judge if you sentence a person because he has no proof that he did not commit the crime.

As for Aerith's death... Even if it's the more important scene in FFVII it doesn't mean that it's romantic. Also the creators are mature enough to show that the death of a comrade had more significance in everyone's lives than a night where everyone might have watched Cloud and Tifa had sex.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

As for Aerith's death... Even if it's the more important scene in FFVII it doesn't mean that it's romantic. Also the creators are mature enough to show that the death of a comrade had more significance in everyone's lives than a night where everyone might have watched Cloud and Tifa had sex.

Ironically, both Aerith's death scene and the higher affection Highwind scene are among the four Impressive Scenes identified in the U20 Scenario -- but I guess Aerith's death isn't really important to the FFVII staff either, and its only importance comes from fans getting their undies in a wad over it.

 

[Danseru-kun]

What I was addressing is Anastar's argument that the HW scene being not present in the AC Reminiscene means that it isn't significant.

Well I don't remember the date scene being there either

 

[Dashell]

Was it ever stated that Reminiscence only had important scenes or something? I'm not sure I understand why Reminiscence is being referred to as some kind of ultimate importance and the "Impressive Scenes" page is being tossed aside.

For that matter I don't see... well why it matters. Is it stated somewhere that characters only have romantic moments in important scenes? In the grand scheme of things, the LT subplot of FFVII really is NOT that important. It's just not at all... how about other Impressive Scenes? Are all the things on FTOIL considered Impressive Scenes?

 

[Ryushikaze]

Was it ever stated that Reminiscence only had important scenes or something? I'm not sure I understand why Reminiscence is being referred to as some kind of ultimate importance and the "Impressive Scenes" page is being tossed aside.

For that matter I don't see... well why it matters. Is it stated somewhere that characters only have romantic moments in important scenes? In the grand scheme of things, the LT subplot of FFVII really is NOT that important. It's just not at all... how about other Impressive Scenes? Are all the things on FTOIL considered Impressive Scenes?

No. While I've not seen the whole of the book, I do know that the date sequence isn't an impressive scene. Pretty damn sure none of the other scenes (Apart, perhaps, from Squall and Rinoa) would warrant a slot in their game's impressive scenes areas.
Steiner/ Beatrix DEFINITELY wouldn't.
Zidane coming back might, though, but more for the 'coming back'

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

The only other romantic moment from the "For the One I Love" page to also be included in its respective game's Impressive Scenes is Tidus and Yuna's moment in the Macalania spring from FFX. Among the non-romantic scenes mentioned in the sub-section on the page, only Terra's moment with the children is included.

Mostly, the "Impressive Scenes" pages seem to feature moments that are pivotal to the plot and/or moments that greatly develop or resolve personal character arcs.

While I've not scene the whole of the book, I do know that the date sequence isn't an impressive scene. Pretty damn sure none of the other scenes (Apart, perhaps, from Squall and Rinoa) would warrant a slot in their game's impressive scenes areas.

The Impressive Scenes for FFVIII are Edea's speech in Deling City; the conversation between Kiros, Raine and Laguna at the beginning of Disc 2; when Squall sets off on his own to take Rinoa to Esthar; and when Squall dives into the vacuum of space to save Rinoa.

 

[Ryushikaze]

The only other romantic moment from the "For the One I Love" page to also be included in its respective game's Impressive Scenes is Tidus and Yuna's moment in the Macalania spring from FFX. Among the non-romantic scenes mentioned in the sub-section on the page, only Terra's moment with the children is included.

Huh. I figured 10 would have other scenes there instead. I guess they spent so much time on the water makeout FMV they want damn sure it's seen by all and sundry.

Mostly, the "Impressive Scenes" pages seem to feature moments that are pivotal to the plot and/or moments that greatly develop or resolve personal character arcs.

Which is why I figured 8's might be there, but 10 wouldn't be.

The Impressive Scenes for FFVIII are Edea's speech in Deling City; the conversation between Kiros, Raine and Laguna at the beginning of Disc 2; when Squall sets off on his own to take Rinoa to Esthar; and when Squall dives into the vacuum of space to save Rinoa.

So, two in sort of the same vein, but not the scene itself.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Basically, yes. Squall's love for Rinoa is declared way before VIII's "For the One I Love" moment, but that was really the moment where he openly expressed it to her. It was only to himself and others he had done so prior, but those scenes were still ... well, impressive.

For anyone curious, X's other three scenes are: the Luca laughing scene, when Yuna defies the teachings in Zanarkand, and when Tidus and Jecht are reunited.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Basically, yes. Squall's love for Rinoa is declared way before VIII's "For the One I Love" moment, but that was really the moment where he openly expressed it to her. It was only to himself and others he had done so prior, but those scenes were still ... well, impressive.

Likewise to it being declared but not demonstrated/ confessed in VIII until the FTOIL scene, FFIV's FTOIL scene is not where that pairing started, it's just where it's most notably demonstrated in game.

For anyone curious, X's other three scenes are: the Luca laughing scene, when Yuna defies the teachings in Zanarkand, and when Tidus and Jecht are reunited.

I can see those three, but the water makeout scene still feels out of place, even with the laughing (The laughing! I cannot escape the laughing!) scene there.

 

[Zealkin]

Zealkin

Disclaimer:
1) I do not think that either Clerith or Cloti have been canonized by SE.
2) I argue for Clerith because I agree with that interpretation of the Compilation.
3) I use Clerith interpretations to support optionality by showing that scenes and source materials can be interpreted in other ways than just Cloti.
4) I use official quotes to show that those quotes can be used to support the Clerith interpretation, too - not just Cloti. That does not mean I think that the Clerith interpretation is the only possible interpretation. It means I think that SE doesn't support only one pairing or one version of the Compilation.
5) I am not trying to prove that Cloti is wrong. I'm trying to show that Clerith is a possible interpretation of the Compilation, that Cloti is not the only possible interpretation of the Compilation, that the Clerith interpretation is every bit as valid as the Cloti interpretation, and that the Clerith interpretation can also be supported by official source material - not just Cloti.

Here's mine:
1. I use quotes to support my arguments...
2.we should have a fanart trading warrrr
That’s it.

We don't know that feelings aren't communicated in the LA version, or that feelings are only communicated in the HA version. That's purely your assumption.

Maybe we don't know because there were no feelings, there has been no mention of feelings in the LA scene and a single word cherry picking a certain definition out of context is not indicative of feeling. We don't know if Cloud and Tifa grew as closer friends before Cloud left but you cannot assume that they did.
And it's not your assumption that Cloud loves Aerith in the LA version even though it says nothing of the sort ANYWHERE? I've read the deviation quote you’ve given me, the word "feelings" is not used, and the explanation that you're using for apathetic does not match up. You're using one definition for a context that does not support said definition.

For example:
The word charge can be used many different ways
1. Charge a battery.
2. An electrical charge.
3. Charge like a bull.
4. Charge with a crime.
5. Charge a payment.
6. Be in charge.
7. Take charge of a situation.
8. Charge a glass
9. Explosive charge
But do they mean the same thing in context? No. The word apathetic in this context is not used as indifferent towards romantic feelings, they don't delve into this in the LA scene, and it's not even hinted that they talk after it fades to black, so how are you coming to this conclusion? Could this be interpretation?

The phrase saying that the LA version is apathetic and ends short does not mean that feelings aren't communicated. I said this to Lancelot the other day, but I'll repeat it here:

- No, that does not confirm the HA version. They disclose their feelings for one another in both versions. The word "apathetic" does not mean that nothing is communicated. Cloud can communicate indifference by simply saying, "Just to be clear, I don't want to be anything more than friends, Tifa". That statement is both apathetic (or candid) and short. It's apathetic because it shows his indifference to getting involved romantically. It's candid because it's honest. It also discloses his feelings. If Tifa said back, "I feel the same way, Cloud", then she's expressing mutual feelings with Cloud. It's apathetic because it shows her indifference to a relationship, it's candid, it discloses her feelings of indifference, and it's short. ~Chantara, http://thelifestream.net/forums/showpost.php?p=383710&postcount=2303

Yeah, except that never happens and it's not mentioned to happen. They awkwardly talk and then fall asleep, that conversation does not exist.

So feelings can still be communicated in an apathetic scene that ends quickly.

Where is this said? In the Fade to black, where they fall asleep? In the deviations descriptions, that are as short as the scene? When do they have a conversation about how they don't want to have a relationship? Why wouldn't Square just say that? And why would they say that if they might die the next day? They do the "If I die tomorrow" scenario with a lot of couples, saying "yeah don't like you" "yah me neither" is just anticlimactic and not worthy of being called an impressive scene :/

Furthermore, it's actually stated on the Deviations page that there is communication in the LA version:

Deviation - Two versions of the conversation before the final battle
Prior to the final battle, the contents of the conversation between Cloud and Tifa can change depending on the degree of Tifa's affection. If the degree of affection is high, the contents of the two's conversation will involve deep subject matter and strong feelings for each other. As well, the sight of the two seen by their companions the next morning will lead to an embarrassing scene for Tifa, and she blushes greatly. ~page 232, Final Fantasy 20th Anniversary Ultimania

It clearly says that the conversation is different in the two versions depending on Tifa's affection level. Therefore, there's conversation in both versions.

Again having a conversation=/= communication of feelings
heck you can have a conversation where nothing is communicated the least of all feelings.

Just a note: I don't remember seeing this from you before. But anyway, I see the FTOIL page as showing optionality for several reasons.

1. Cloud is pictured with both Aerith and Tifa under the heading of Love Between Heroes. No other main protagonist has two different pictures with two different women on that page.
2. Both the pictured scene of Cloud with Aerith and the pictured scene of Cloud with Tifa are labeled as optional with deviations. They are labeled that way by a page number being listed for further reference above each picture:
3. These are the ONLY two pictures on the page that are labeled as having deviations/optional versions. All of the other pictures on the page show non-optional scenes.
4. There is absolutely no reason for the Clerith date picture to be on the FTOIL page unless it has something to do with the title "Love Between Heroes".
5. There is absolutely no reason for the Clerith date picture to be on the FTOIL page if Cloti is being declared canon.

The only explanation for Cloud to be pictured on the FTOIL page with two different females, both in optional scenes, is that SE considers both women to be possible love interests for Cloud on an optional basis.

Except no where is that said, Aertih's date was one-sided with HER voicing her feelings but Cloud being a derp didn't get it, not only that but it mentions all four dates wherein one-sided romance is directed at Cloud. Does Cloud also love Yuffie, Aerith, Tifa and Barret all optionally/at the same time because all four dates are mentioned? Because you keep mentioning pg 232 and that's where ALL four dates are spoken of not just Aerith's..

The page numbers are there to provide further information about each picture, are they not? If the page number is listed on the FTOIL page, then the information on those pages is considered relevant to the topic of "Love Between Heroes".

So Aertih's date, Tifa's date, Yuffie's date, and Barrets date are all canon optionally too right? I guess Tifa's twice as canon since she gets two awesome sauce scenes. If you consider the date as mutual you have to take in account all 4 dates.

In the first place, I don't consider that to be complicated. In the second place, no other Final Fantasy has optional love interests for the main protagonist. In the third place, how else would SE show that Cloud has optional love interests than to picture him with both women and note that the scenes are optional?

It's not complicated that you had to make up a conversation that isn't mentioned, and continue to pursue the idea that Cloud and Aeirh love each other in the LA scene even though there is no indication of that happening?

Actualllyyy FFX does, Lulu and Rikku both have affection points, and Tidus does pursue an interest with them depending on the game mechanics. Does that make Tidus and Yuna any less Official? Me thinks not.
How else would they show optional love interest? hmm maybe by putting a SUBTITLE over it?

IF SE wanted to make either Cloti or Clerith canon, then why picture Cloud with the other woman, too?

It’s not the clerith date, it mentions all four dates, all four of the people that visited Cloud had SOME kind of romantic inclination toward Cloud, and that is mentioned underneath the Aerith and Cloud date. Cloud was oblivious in both Tifa's and Aerith's dates Yuffie was able to communicate physically but obviously Cloud does not reciprocate and so does Barret in his own strange...strange way..

You're either looking at the pictures that represent a HA scene and a cloud and aerith date, or you're solely relying on pg 232 as means for confirming optionally. You cannot have it both ways it’s contradicting.

Besides, the Cloti's in this debate have been saying that you can tell the HA HW scene is canon because it's used in story summaries. That's a WAY more complicated way to show something's canon than showing Cloud with two women in optional scenes to mean that his love interest is optional.

Or the fact that the story summaries that you insist cannot strictly be talking about the HA scene have been confirmed to be romantic by a translator, one you trust I might add, with several quotes. All but one is romantically inclined, and the only romantic/desire laden scene is the HA scene:


http://www.allexperts.com/user.cgi?m...97&qID=5001685
CONFIRMED ROMANCE:

(FFVII Ultimania Omega, pg. 15; Cloud's profile)
[FONT=&quot]最終決戦を前に一時解散を宣言し、飛空艇に残ったティファと想いを通わせる。[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]"Declares that the team should dissolve in the final hours before the final battle, and communicates his feelings together with Tifa, who remains behind at the airship with him."[/FONT]


[FONT=&quot](FFVII Ultimania Omega, pg. 27; Tifa's profile)[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]クラウドの提案で一時解散することになるが、飛空艇に残り、クラウドと想いを通わせる。[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]"When Cloud proposes that the group separates temporarily, she remains behind at the airship and communicates her feelings together with Cloud. "[/FONT]


[FONT=&quot](FFVII Ultimania Omega, pg. 27; Tifa's profile)[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]ティファのクラウドに対する好感度が高い場合、飛空艇に残ったふたりは、互いを求める気持ちを確かめ合う。[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]"If Tifa's affection regarding Cloud is high, when the two stay behind at the airship, they will confirm that their feelings of desire/wanting for one another match."[/FONT]


[FONT=&quot](Crisis Core Ultimania, pg. 33; Tifa's profile)[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]クラウドとは物語の終盤に想いを通わせ、「AC」「DC」の時代は一緒に暮らしている。[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]"She communicates her feelings together with Cloud in the final stages of the story, and in AC and DC they live together."[/FONT]


[FONT=&quot](FFVII 10th Anniversary Ultimania, pg. 118; pg. 120 in the Revised Edition; story summary)[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]残ったクラウドとティファは、互いへの想いを打ち明け、確かめ合う。[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]"Cloud and Tifa, who remain, reveal their feelings for each other and confirm them to match."[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot](FF 20th Anniversary Ultimania File 2: Scenario, pg. 232; main body of FFVII's story summary)[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]そして、ふたり、きりになったクラウドとティファは、残された最後の時間で互いの想いを打ち明け合う。[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]"And when Cloud and Tifa remain behind alone, in their final hours, they disclose that their feelings for each other match."[/FONT]


[FONT=&quot](FF 20th Anniversary Ultimania File 2: Scenario, pg. 394; "For the One I Love" page)[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]「VII」最終決戦前夜に[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]ティファのおかげで自分を取り戻したクラウドはセフィロスとの最後の戦いを前に言葉では伝えられない想いを彼女と確かめ合う[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]"VII - The night before the final battle[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Thanks to Tifa, Cloud regains himself, and before the final battle with Sephiroth, without using words, he confirms with her that their feelings match."[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]DOESN'T SAY WHAT FEELINGS:[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot](FFVII Ultimania Omega, pg. 198; story summary)[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]大切な人の待つ場所へと仲間が散っていき、ふたりきりになたクラドとティファ。残された最後の時間でお互いの想いを打ち明け、そして……。[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]"When their companions disperse to the places where people important to them await, Cloud and Tifa are the only two to remain behind. They reveal their mutual feelings in their final hours, and......."[/FONT]

I see nothing unprofessional or complicated about saying that Cloud has optional love interests.

It's unprofessional because it's never actually stated or implied, and the way you have come to this conclusion causes you to force conversation into the game that doesn’t exist.

The point is that IF SE was trying to say that Cloti is canon, then there is absolutely no reason whatsoever for SE to put the Clerith date scene on the page, too. That'd be like putting the FFX snowmobile ride of Tidus with Rikku/Lulu on the page alongside the pic of Tidus kissing Yuna in the Macalania spring. Why is Cloud the ONLY main protagonist shown with two women? Because the pairings are optional.

Except it's not the “clerith” date, it's describing all four dates, where feelings from the woman/barret side are expressed towards Cloud, he simply doesn't read them, excluding Yuffie and Barrets.
And Rikku and Lulu don't actually love Tidus now do they? Nor do they actually TRY to pursue a relationship with him, the game mechanics are just for fun just like in ff7 but the canon Yuna and Tidus is fully realized.

Good question, but they obviously didn't want to do it that way or they would have.

Now why wouldn't they put the subtitle there? Maybe because it's not needed or implied. And how do you know what they would have and would not have done exactly?

Point is, why the hell is the Clerith date scene even on the page under "Love Between Heroes" IF Cloti is canon? The Clerith date scene has absolutely no relevance IF Cloti is canon. Why not just put the HW scene picture ONLY without specifying that there are two optional versions IF Cloti is canon?

Then why is the Clerith date picture on the page, too? IF SE wanted to make it clear that Cloti is canon, then it would have been made clear if SE had put ONLY the HW scene picture on the page without labeling the scene as optional. But they chose not to do that - why?

The title is: "For the One that I love" actually, and Aerith does Love Cloud and Yuffie does have a romantic interest for him as well, why not mention all the dates wherein characters direct affections at the protagonist?

Instead, SE made the decision to put both girls on the page with Cloud and label both scenes as optional. It's the only pairing on the page where that is done. Why?

Except it mentions all four dates not just Aeriths..

And again why wouldn't the commercial artists put a title for their optional love?

Because they're not talking about feelings of friendship. They're talking about feelings of love being possible with two different women in FFVII.

I was mentioning both highwind scene and regarding which one actually HAPPENED, if the LA scene did happen, there would be no need to continue mentioning the HA(with the quotes that allude to it above) or even have one if this is what actually took place.

And no. Why didn't the Cloud and Aertih date scene, as you like to put it, have discussion of mutual feelings as well? Because Cloud WAS oblivious when that happened..

already explained how feelings can be communicated in the LA version.

And you have no backing for this, as you like to say It's your interpretation, because you have no quotes that say this happens..

did I say that was definite, but I've already explained numerous times how it's possible.

Your question is like asking me why Cloud loves Tifa (assuming that he does). It's possible that Cloud loves Tifa because she fights well and she's sexy. It's possible that Cloud loves Tifa because he had a crush on her when he was a kid and he never got over it. It's possible that Cloud loves Tifa because she's brave and optimistic. It's possible that Cloud loves Tifa because she understands him so well. Any of those reasons are possible, or it's possible that he loves her for ALL of those reasons combined. But SE has never said so - in fact, SE has never said at all that Cloud loves Tifa on a non-optional basis. Yet, you think he does

So why does he NOT love Tifa in the LA version? SE hasn't said why, just like SE hasn't said why Cloud loves Tifa or even IF Cloud loves Tifa non-optionally. I've given you possible reasons. I've already explained those possible reasons.

NEVER EVER HAS SQUARE SAID THAT THE HIGWIND SCENE WAS OPTIONAL. EVUR.(misspelling ftw)
There are deviations yes, but there is no word optional, there is no: you can love this person or you can love that person, it's simply there. And the quotes I gave you above ALL allude to the HA scene happening because it is the romantic one of the two,

and no, the LA scene does not happen, why would Tifa communicate that she only wants to be friends and then in CoT ask Cloud if he loves her? Why would Tifa be the only one that Cloud opens his heart to? The LA scene did not happen it’s a deviation, something that can happen just like all the four dates can happen depending on the player. But that does not change that fact that the HA scene is continuously mentioned. There is no optional loving Tifa in the game, in the compilation it happens.

See above. I'm answering your question with another question because I can't answer your question for the same reason you can't answer my question.

So you cannot come up with a quote that says Cloud loves Aerith in the LA scene then, fine.

I already explained that. It's possible to hurt people you love by accident.

but you JUST said that if he drops the barrels on Aerith that he does NOT like her, that’s not him loving her, that’s him not liking her according to you, when in reality when someone accidentally hurts someone it doesn't necessarily mean they don't like them, because it was an accident. And since the affection values is so valuable to you please give me a quote that actually says that it is an important canon part of the game.

Easy. Because asking Tifa to take care of Aerith means that he likes Aerith. That lowers Tifa's affection score because it makes Tifa jealous.

it makes Tifa "jealous" but it somehow makes Barret happy..wat?

That's only your assumption. There's no proof that those quotes relate to the HA version only. The phrase describing the LA version as "apathetic" (or "candid") and "ends quickly" does not mean that feelings weren't exchanged. I showed that in my example to Lancelot.

see quotes above, 7 out of 8 are desire/romantic oriented, it's the HA scene.

Furthermore, it's stated on the Deviations page that both versions contain conversation. If there's conversation in both versions, then there's communication in both versions:

Deviation - Two versions of the conversation before the final battle
Prior to the final battle, the contents of the conversation between Cloud and Tifa can change depending on the degree of Tifa's affection. If the degree of affection is high, the contents of the two's conversation will involve deep subject matter and strong feelings for each other. As well, the sight of the two seen by their companions the next morning will lead to an embarrassing scene for Tifa, and she blushes greatly. ~page 232, Final Fantasy 20th Anniversary Ultimania
It clearly says that the conversation is different in the two versions depending on Tifa's affection level. Therefore, there's conversation and communication in both versions.

communication=/= communicating feelings...

In the first place, we know they're feelings of love for Celes/Locke, Cecil/Rosa. and Ingus/Sara because their feelings of love for one another are well established in the game itself on a non-optional basis. However, It's never established for Cloud and Tifa in FFVII on a non-optional basis.

OKAY so when Cloud says to Tifa IN the game
"But, Tifa......."
"But you said, 'Long time no see, Cloud' right?"
"Those words will always support me." AND
”No matter what anyone else says to me, it's your attitude that counts..." when they see the feelings they have for one another in the lifestream scene, and communicating love in HA scene happens in the game’s narrative, so there’s your in game proofz that don’t happen optionally.

The only way we know the "mutual feelings" described in the paragraph about the HW scene on the FTOIL are feelings of love because of the title and caption on the page itself - nothing else indicates that it's love. In fact, the word "love" isn't even used in the description. SE says they share "deep feelings", not WHAT feelings. So the ONLY way we know it's love is because of the title saying "Love Between Heroes". Current love between Cloud and Tifa was NEVER confirmed in the game itself or anywhere in the Compilation on a non-optional basis.

And you're ignoring the fact that the other characters blurbs that I JUST posted don't talk about WHAT feelings either, so are they any less genuine? And according to that logic, the Date scene with Aerith is only 1/4 of its normal worth because it talks about all 4 scenes...

So the only way we know the feelings talked about on the FTOIL page is because of the title of the page, "Love Between Heroes". Well, the same title about love is over the picture of Cloud and Aerith, too. If the only way we know that the HW scene pic is about love, then it means we know that the Clerith date scene pic is about love, too.

Yeah love that ONLY AERITH COMMUNICATES Cloud is oblivious during the WHOLE thing, not only that but you keep ignoring the fact that there are 4 dates, the pictures don't matter as much as the text does.

Celes and Locke's scene isn't labeled as optional, and there isn't a second picture of Locke with another woman on that page. Cecil and Rosa's scene isn't labeled as optional, and there isn't a second picture of Cecil with another woman on that page. Ingus and Sara's scene isn't labeled as optional, and there isn't a second picture of Ingus with another woman on that page.

The very fact that there is a second picture of Cloud with another woman and that both pictures of Cloud are labeled as optional means that things are different for FFVII than in the other FF games.

That's only your interpretation. Seriously you have no poof of this, and I’ve asked you for it several times.

"Apathetic" and "ends short" don't mean that Cloud and Tifa didn't communicate anything.

communication=/= communicating feelings

That's only your assumption.

Same to you. Why don't you actually explain to me why it's my interpretation instead of just repeating this response over and over? You're not making a point you're just making a statement that cannot be responded to,

One has to happen.

yes and now that we've reached that conclusion, it's not really optional is it? the one that happens has to 7 quotes backing it up.

The meaning of "apathetic" does not say anything about communication. One can be apathetic and still communicate.

Yet feelings are not communicated I've explained this above.

As clarification. That's necessary at times when you're good friends with a member of the opposite sex.

PLEASE make up your mind what did they communicate to you? First it's friendship and another day it's indifference to romantic feelings which is it?
And if they did communicate friendship there would be no need to put them on the FTIOL page.

I see no basis for either assertion. I've already shown that feelings can be expressed when the conversation is apathetic (or candid) and ends short. I'll repeat it here:

- No, that does not confirm the HA version. They disclose their feelings for one another in both versions. The word "apathetic" does not mean that nothing is communicated. Cloud can communicate indifference by simply saying, "Just to be clear, I don't want to be anything more than friends, Tifa". That statement is both apathetic (or candid) and short. It's apathetic because it shows his indifference to getting involved romantically. It's candid because it's honest. It also discloses his feelings. If Tifa said back, "I feel the same way, Cloud", then she's expressing mutual feelings with Cloud. It's apathetic because it shows her indifference to a relationship, it's candid, it discloses her feelings of indifference, and it's short. ~Chantara, http://thelifestream.net/forums/showpost.php?p=383710&postcount=2303

That has as much basis for happening as the HA version if a player has been picking choices throughout the game that raise Aerith's affection level instead of Tifa's.

And once again this conversation does not exist and there is no place to put it in the LA scene, communication=/= communicating feelings and like you said ONE scene has to happen, and it’s the scene that has 7 quotes backing it up.

And why does the darkness have to convey something other than sleeping if they have no interest in a relationship with each other?

It's just as possible for Cloud and Tifa to not have interest in a relationship with each other as it is for them to have interest in a relationship with each other. There's nothing confirmed either way in the game or the rest of the Compilation on a non-optional basis.

Because you're literally making up a conversation that never happened, and when that conversation would happen is unknown since they go to sleep, and never say anything like let's just be friends" like you wrote yourself.

Yet, their relationships are confirmed on a non-optional basis in game.

How? Prove it use quotes, because I can assure you no where in ff4 does Cecil say I love you to Rosa with her responding to a I love you too, because that's apparently the only way to have a relationship be confirmed. The only one I can think of that says it is Yuna, and she actually just says THANK YOU to Tidus in the Japanese version.

Then show me the quote, because I don't see any such thing said in CoT.

"“You’ve always had me.”

“What I mean is kind of different,” Cloud answered with another smile."

Please show me the quote where Cloud "excludes Barret from the family". I didn't see any such thing.

“Now running a delivery business while helping out Tifa with the newly opened “Seventh Heaven” bar, Cloud, Tifa, Marlene and Denzel lived together like a family.”(Cloud’s 10th Au profile)

Please show me the quote.

""Good for you. Whole world's clappin' you on the back. So Cloud's with Tifa?"
"Yeah. Tifa opened a bar, just like the old days. Cloud was helpin' out, but it sounds like he's got his own business keepin' him tied up now. A delivery service."
"Cloud? Run a business?"
"You can bet it's Tifa kickin' his ass into shape."
"I see. In the end, it's the women [who] wear the pants.""

Yes, I've heard the colloquialism, but I've never heard that it can ONLY refer to a boyfriend/girlfriend relationship.

So when is there ANY instance of it not? When only referring to a platonic relationship?

Show me where apathetic means no communication.

You know the definitions. You just accept one of the many definitions for it, Like I explained with the word charge. Aathetic also means indifferent or without emotion, which is what is emphasized in the context of the deviation.

In the first place, how do you know the quotes are referring back to the FTOIL page? In the second place, the FTOIL page specifies that there are two versions of the HW scene and that Cloud shares "strong feelings" with Tifa ONLY when Tifa's affection level is high.

Because Romantic feelings or desire are not expressed in the LA scene, and Tifa and Cloud do communicate regardless of what barrel you want to push.

So when the quotes say that the two confirm mutual feelings, it can be referring to the LA version as easily as it can be referring to the HA version.

Except they DON’T confirm feelings in the LA scene, and it’s never been said to, that’s your interpretation, wherein you have to make up a scene in order for it to fit.

I'm still unclear what you mean. Are you saying that the LA scene isn't described on the Deviations page? If so, then I don't see how that matters.

The HA scene has feelings the LA scene has indifference and feelings are not communicated, there is a difference between the two. Feelings are only mentioned in the HA scene and that is the scene that is constantly alluded to. See quotes above.

For one thing, the Deviation page clearly says that there are two versions of the scene depending on Tifa's affection level, and that the conversation involves "strong feelings for each other" ONLY when Tifa's affection level is high.

In the second place, it doesn't matter because both versions were described fully in the FFVII UO.

Actually, it's stated on the Deviations page:

Deviation - Two versions of the conversation before the final battle
Prior to the final battle, the contents of the conversation between Cloud and Tifa can change depending on the degree of Tifa's affection. If the degree of affection is high, the contents of the two's conversation will involve deep subject matter and strong feelings for each other. As well, the sight of the two seen by their companions the next morning will lead to an embarrassing scene for Tifa, and she blushes greatly. ~page 232, Final Fantasy 20th Anniversary Ultimania

It clearly says that the conversation is different in the two versions depending on Tifa's affection level. Therefore, there's conversation in both versions.

Um now you’re skipping over content in your own quote? It says Tifa’s high affection would make for a deeper conversation, it doesn’t say that Tifa or Cloud do not stop having those feelings, the players choice does not matter.

Then how come I'm not the only Clerith advocate who noticed it? And frankly, the way Cloti's in this debate are arriving at the conclusion that the HA HW scene is canon is extremely complicated - I'd say it's far more complicated than the way I'm arriving at my conclusion.

Because… you share things? So If we’re given info that says that Cloud and Tifa communicated their romantic feelings together SEVEN times we’re being complicated and should be making up conversations that didn’t happen. Got it.

Hey, I didn't use the word apathetic to describe the scene - the FFVII UO did, so complain to SE. Besides, the JP word can also mean "candid", so that may have been the word they intended. I don't know.

The point WAS this isn’t poetry you’re not MEANT to extract meaning and various definitions out of words, it’s a GUIDE book it’s there to GUIDE YOU.

The post you linked to said it best:

Not to say that's always the case, since emotions are a subjective thing. ~Rygdea

Rygdea says right there that you can't say what the meaning is for sure. Rygdea also says this:

And you’re glossing over the point where he states that it’s not always mutual, nor is it always one-sided.

It's basically, if you hear this, people are going to assume that it's mutual and that there's two people involved there (since the word itself is talking about the object of affection, not the person doting the affection). And for Tifa, the only one who really makes any sense is Cloud. ~Rygdea

There's the crux of the problem right there. The only one who makes any sense TO YOU is Cloud. To me, it makes no sense whatsoever because I think Cloud loves Aerith, not Tifa. Plus, I saw no indication of romance existing between Cloud and Tifa on those pages of the Reunion Files. Furthermore, Nomura said that he had no idea if there was a romantic relationship between Cloud and Tifa between FFVII and AC/ACC. Furthermore, Cloud's name wasn't used in that quote in RF.

3) I use Clerith interpretations to support optionality by showing that scenes and source materials can be interpreted in other ways than just Cloti.
4) I use official quotes to show that those quotes can be used to support the Clerith interpretation, too - not just Cloti. That does not mean I think that the Clerith interpretation is the only possible interpretation. It means I think that SE doesn't support only one pairing or one version of the Compilation.
5) I am not trying to prove that Cloti is wrong. I'm trying to show that Clerith is a possible interpretation of the Compilation, that Cloti is not the only possible interpretation of the Compilation, that the Clerith interpretation is every bit as valid as the Cloti interpretation, and that the Clerith interpretation can also be supported by official source material - not just Cloti.

You just invalidated 3 of our 5 points in your disclaimer.
And No, he said he had no idea ABOUT it. He also said the movie profoundly grasped the truth of their relationship.
And Aerith’s isn’t used in CoLW guess we’re lost again then.

So there's nothing to confirm that it's Cloud. It's only your interpretation and opinion.

Kay so the woman in CoLW is forever a mystery again. Got it.

And yet in the post you linked me to, Rygdea said that koibito means "since the word itself is talking about the object of affection, not the person doting the affection". If Tifa is "like a sweetheart", that would mean that Tifa is the object of affection to someone. Tifa's clearly the object of affection to Johnny - he even named his place "Johnny's Heaven" after the "Seventh Heaven" because he wanted to live like Tifa.

But she isn’t like a sweetheart just like she isn’t like an ally in battle, and for the LAST time Johnny IS NOT IN ADVENT CHILDREN The Reunion Files is talking about Advent Children. Johnny does not matter, his emotions are never said to matter, and this is very strongly YOUR INTERPRETATION.

Sure, it's possible - but I'd question just how healthy a relationship of that kind would be.

According to you right? Because a lot of people have motherly bonds to their significant others.

Sorry, but it's not common knowledge and SE has not been saying it for awhile now. It's merely what you interpret them to be saying - it's not fact by any means.

Just like you making up a conversation that’s your interpretation too.
The fact that Tifa ‘s ally in battle and mother status is NEVER questioned, only her sweetheart role, noted.

I don't see how that statement implies that two people are in a romantic relationship. As far as I know, it can pertain to more than just romantic relationships.

Since when is a woman being left behind by a man, ever used non romantically?

It says on the FTOIL page that it's optional by referring to page 232, which contains information pertinent to the scene It says on page 232 that the scene has two versions and that it's only when Tifa's affection level is high that Cloud and Tifa share strong feelings with each other. The FFVII UO says that when Tifa's affection level is low, the scene is apathetic and ends short. We know that the conversation is apathetic and ends short because the Deviation on page 232 specifies that there are two versions of the conversation.
.

No, it says that only when her affection is high that the CONVERSATION has deep subject matter. And again Deviation=/=Everything is optional

The compilation never showed me that Cloud loves Tifa currently, so that's only your opinion. Actually, the first time I saw AC/ACC, I thought it canonized Clerith.

Maybe it’s your interpretation that is keeping you from seeing it

Tifa talking about lecturing Cloud with Marlene on that page doesn't indicate a romantic relationship. My mother has lectured me, my father has lectured me, I've had teachers lecture me, and I've had friends lecture me. Sorry, but lecturing does not indicate a romantic relationship.

Sorry but using pictures as an indication for love or no love isn’t valid, that was the point. Where are all her allies in battle? Pictures are not more important than text.

What childhood memories do they share together besides one conversation at the water tower, and Cloud not being able to save Tifa when she fell off the bridge?

Why is looking for Cloud in the papers romantic? I look up Obama in the papers almost daily to see what the latest news is, and I'm not romantically interested in him.

And how is joining Avalanche together romantic? Cid, Aerith, Barret, RedXIII, Vincent, Cait Sith, and Yuffie all joined Avalanche, too - were Cloud and Tifa romantically involved with all of them?

You were using a quote that talks about Cloud being a large part of Tifa’s life, he was, I listed these things as proof, not as romantic context (even some are both)
I don’t think you’re romantically into Obama right?

I already answered that. It's a source you trust, and it's your question.

See this is why a full post would be less complicated. Why can’t you prove my point is wrong with sources that you “trust”

Because I'm not trying to prove that Cloti is impossible or that Clerith is canon. I'm arguing that who Cloud loves is based on interpretation only, that SE intended it that way, and that SE has yet to declare either pairing canon.

You’ve yet to actually find the word optional, had to create conversations and have contradicted you own disclaimer several times. And Square will never come out and say so and so is canon, they haven't done it for 12 final fantasy's and they certainly won't do it for this one.

What do I consider to be canon material? I think a better question would be, "Just how reliable is material that gets contradicted?"

That’s almost the entire compilation so I guess that leaves you with nothing.

The point is not how well Tifa understands Cloud, but how reliable that piece of information is when it turns around and says that Tifa doesn't understand the complexities of Cloud's heart and this makes her uneasy.

And you left out the word some, she doesn’t understand SOME of the complexities in his heart, and that is very much the point, Tifa is the one that best understands him, but like it was said earlier, you cannot know EVERYTHING about a person.

page 21 of the RF says that Tifa opened her heart to Cloud - it didn't say that Cloud opened his heart to Tifa.

The reunion files doesn’t say it but the Advent Children Playback does.

“Since 2 years ago, Tifa has been the only one [Cloud] has opened his heart to. Now, his heart is closed even to her.”(Advent Children playback)
Hmm another allusion to the HA scene.

Is it? Then why does Cloud look so miserable here:

He doesn't look at all happy to me. Why does he leave the Seventh Heaven to live in Aerith's church if he's so happy? Wouldn't he want to spend his dying days with the family he supposedly loves? Why does Nojima say that CoT is based on the premise that there will be problems between Cloud and Tifa that have nothing to do with Geostigma and Sephiroth? Why is Tifa uneasy because she doesn't understand the complexities of Cloud's heart? Why does Tifa keep wondering if they're a real family? Why does Tifa say to Cloud in AC/ACC that, "I guess that only works for real families?"

He doesn't seem that happy to me.

"-- So, why has Cloud separated himself from his friends?

Nomura: Cloud is scared that the peace he has now might shatter, so he is living on his own.

-- Why?

Nomura: In the past he meet Zack, his best friend, and Aerith, someone who was important to him, but he lost them, so wonders if his present peace will also shatter one day... Since something might happen while he's around, he left everyone behind and is doing delivery work on his own.”
AND
"Nojima: Cloud never had a candid personality to begin with, and although he started living with Tifa and even started working, he obtained a peaceful living he's never experienced before, and this conversely made him anxious. And in the midst of this he contracts Geostigma himself, and rather than being able to protect the people dear to him, he instead was forced to face his own death, and so ran away.

Nomura: Even though he found peace, Cloud has lost a lot of people dear to him up until this point. Not only that, but looking at Cloud's history, this is the first time he's experienced a 'peaceful' environment in the true sense of the word. Cloud is a character who will always keep thinking, regardless of what's going on around him."

So we’re analyzing pictures again, in the same way that you think Tifa looked “defeated” Cloud was happy and has been stated to be happy many many times:
"In Advent Children
The happier he is now,
The more Cloud is tormented by painful “memories” of the past."

"The more he realizes how happy he is living with Tifa and the children, the more the fear of losing that and regrets toward the past trouble Cloud…"
(10th AU)

And why are those contradicted by the quotes I gave above if he's so happy?

They’re not.

Because he wasn't actually reunited with Aerith until AC/ACC.

Except they weren’t reunited since she’s still very much dead, and then she goes back to the lifestream where she belongs. This is your opinion.

Because, as Nomura said in Distance, Aerith lives on inside of him. Because she lives on inside of him, she's always with him.

Again this is figurative; I mentioned this later in my post.

Aerith didn't depart for the Lifestream at the end of AC/ACC in the way you're taking it to mean. In actuality, she never left the Lifestream. Spirits can't leave the Lifestream - they're part of the Lifestream.

Sephiroth did.

It's said right in the quote that you gave me:

Behind these actions lies feelings of guilt towards his past failure to protect PEOPLE who were important to him

Who do you think the person was who was important to him that he failed to protect?

People is a plural word. It’s more than JUST Aerith.

And I think it's more than logical that he goes to Aerith's Church to be near Aerith. It's the place where he can be closest to her. He leaves Seventh Heaven to go live at Aerith's Church while he's dying. Who is he going to be near while he's at Aerith's Church? Aerith or Tifa?

And once again you’ve disregarded your disclaimer. Notice that he’s depressed not only in the church but everywhere he goes, If Aerith is ALWAYS with him why should it even matter? The point is he’s not looking for Aerith like the quotes I game form Nomura and Nojima above, he’s running away.

I can't find what we were talking about here.

Or why he would drag around an incredible guilt where she and her friends have moved on?

Why Tifa was mad at Cloud for not moving on when she and the rest or her friends have.

Not the point. The point is that not understanding the complexities of Cloud's heart makes Tifa feel uneasy. If not understanding Cloud makes Tifa feel uneasy, then there's something wrong with the relationship.

So every relationship has to be perfect now and there can be no misunderstandings, gee Cloud has high standards, this is an opinion if I ever saw one.

Actually, I didn't say that. I said that there were some inaccuracies in the information. You think there are no inaccuracies in anything that's canon? Of course there are.

Chantara:

What do I consider to be canon material? I think a better question would be, "Just how reliable is material that gets contradicted?"

And actually, I said nothing about whether RF is canon. What I said was this:

As I've had others say to me about the FFVII commercial - if one part isn't accurate, then why should we believe anything else? ~Anastar, http://thelifestream.net/forums/showpost.php?p=381491&postcount=2143
So if we can't believe anything in the FFVII commercial because there's a supposed inaccuracy in it, why should we believe the Reunion Files?

Once again almost the entire compilation has been like this and a commercial does not deliver factual information, especially since this commercial was made by Sony, a different company, and the fact that commercials are just generally made up lies to get you to buy something.

Will Red Bull really give me wings? No. But it hooks people’s interest.

Well, that's nice - but it's merely Quex's opinion.

No making up a conversation is opinion; actually supporting yourself with facts is not.

The only thing SE has confirmed is that Cloud and Tifa are able to have a romantic relationship on an optional basis. SE has also confirmed that Cloud and Tifa are able to have a non-romantic relationship on an optional basis. Therefore, there's nothing canon about their romance - it's only optional.

DEVIATION=/= OPTIONAL explained the rest of this above.

1) because He and Tifa have communicated feelings of love with one another
Optionally. SE has specified that they are able to communicate love on an optional basis ONLY. SE has said nothing about their love being canon.
2) Cloud wants her in a different way then before
You've yet to give me the quote where this is said.
3) Tifa is never said to love another man
Doesn't mean that Cloud loves Tifa
4) no other mans love for Tifa has been relevant
But the love of other men for Tifa (like Johnny) has been confirmed on a non-optional basis
5) the fact that they were happy together as a family before Geostigma and guilt Actually, there's many indications that they were unhappy as a family. The family is said to be a family of friends. And even IF Cloud is happy with them, it doesn't confirm that he's in love with Tifa.

• The word Optional is never used. Square said that they ONLY communicate feelings this way.
• gave you the quote
• you keep mentioning Johnny, trying to counter Tifa’s koibito quote when Johnny isn’t relevant that’s why this was mentioned. And like the koibito used in the RF IS mutual Tifa had never been said to love Johnny. EVER.
• AGAIN Johnny does NOT matter and the koibito use is mutual, Tifa does not love Johnny.
• already argued this above. And it’s not one thing that makes Cloud and Tif acanon, as I’ve said before.

In your opinion.

It’s your interpretation that it’s my opinion.
So that mean Squares puzzles are hard then? I guess that’s why we still don’t know who the woman in CoLW is.

Actually, I assume no such thing. I said there's more than one meaning for koibito - that it can mean a mutual relationship as well as a one-sided relationship, and therefore you cannot assume which kind of relationship is indicated by the statement in CoLWhite.

As for the statement in RF, Cloud's name isn't used and there is no reference to a romantic relationship between Tifa and Cloud anywhere on Tifa's profile pages in RF. Therefore, there's no reason to assume that a romantic relationship exists between them.

So Cloud now has another onesided love from this random woman?

And I believe I answered all that you said about optionality above.

Ditto Nibelheim

There is one BIG difference here. It's already been confirmed on a non-optional basis that Tifa is an ally in battle. It has NOT been confirmed on a non-optional basis that Cloud loves Tifa currently.

But according to you it’s up to the player most of the time, what if I never have Tifa in my party of three?

And you apparently can know who she’s an ally in battle to, who she’s a mother to but cannot figure out her koibito? It’s the CoLW woman mystery all over again.

Zealkin

Sorry for the delay, but I kept losing the responses that I started writing to you.

It’s cool just take your time seriously there’s no rush.

At any rate, we were talking here about whether or not koibito in CoLWhite means that the affection between Cloud and Aerith is mutual or one-sided:

Well, according to the link you gave, Rydia says that koibito usually means mutual affection, not one-sided:

I've asked several people, Japanese people who I asked in Japanese and they answered in Japanese, about this word and its usage and have never heard this 'one-sided' thing that gets tossed around. It's basically, if you hear this, people are going to assume that it's mutual and that there's two people involved there (since the word itself is talking about the object of affection, not the person doting the affection). ~Rygdia, http://thelifestream.net/forums/showpost.php?p=1217&postcount=87

That implies that koibito's usage in CoLWhite means that Aerith and Cloud have a mutual love interest, not one-sided.

You completely ignored this part that kinda contradicts what you’re saying..
“Not to say that's always the case, since emotions are a subjective thing. You can think to yourself, "hey, Billy's my koibito" while Billy might be all "woah, back off woman". However, we aren't talking about what Tifa thinks herself. Because this was Nomura, talking about a fictional character in the third person.”

The difference between Tifa and Aeriths quote is that Aerith is speaking for HERSELF with no indication of Cloud’s say, Tifa is being DESCRIBED in third person, just like you can deduce who she’s an ally in battle to, and a mother to, you can deduce who she’s a koibito to, and the link explains why it WOULD be mutual.

Since when do hardships confirm a love relationship? It's possible for two people in love to experience hardships together, but two people who are NOT in a love relationship can also experience hardships together. For example, Cloud and Zack were imprisoned in Hojo's lab for 5(?) years together and went through a bunch of trouble together as they escaped - but they weren't in love.

I meant hardships AND their memories. Not exclusively hardships, and it’s the fact that they face them together as a couple that makes it significant.

As through the confirmation of mutual feelings, Cloud and Tifa confirm mutual feelings in both the LA and HA version of the HW scene. Both versions completely fit in with the plot line of the Compilation since there's absolutely nothing after the HW scene which confirms whether Cloud is only friends with Tifa or in a romantic relationship with her.

The LA scene NEVER says mutual feelings;I’ve explained this before, and Cloud saying he has Tifa in a new way before, after the final battle contradicts that, not only that but:

"Her determination towards the last fight was resolved in Disc 3, however she was not able to contain her fear. On the flight deck on the airship she talks to Cloud and asks him “Say it’s going to be okay”.[FONT=&quot]　[/FONT]Even though she sounded lost, there was Tifa who acted a bit childish, and when Cloud answered “It’s going to be okay”, it was almost as though both their heart connected and it was very heart warming. By the way the conversation they had just now, relates back to what Tifa said a while ago (Ultimania Omega)
A scene that happens directly after the HA scene is described, why would their hearts connect if they had just denied romantic feelings for one another?

As for Aerith's koibito not being confirmed in CoLWhite, it clearly says that Cloud is Aerith's koibito. I've given other examples of where I believe Clerith love is confirmed, but you don't accept that evidence - just like I don't accept your evidence for Cloti.

No, it says Cloud was the woman’s Koibito, we don’t know who the woman is. And the woman has said that Cloud is her Koibito. Cloud’s say is excluded.

The quote from page 21 in the Reunion Files says nothing about "matters of the heart". It only says this:

There's only one scene where she opens up and tells Cloud what's going on from her heart. ~RF, page 21

That's obviously talking about the "dilly dally shilly shally" scene, since that's the only scene where she opens up to Cloud. In that scene, she says nothing about feelings of romance. She tells Cloud not to give up even though he's got Geostigma, and that she's willing to help him work through it. Then she says she guesses that only works for real families.

The words she uses in that scene can be said between friends as well as between romantic partners. It does not confirm what kind of relationship they have at all.

That’s not what I was trying to say. You told me to read some of your essays, whenever the engraved in heart Aerith quote comes up, you regard it as romantic, but Tifa’s dealings with Clouds heart are disregarded, even when Cloud is the only one he has opened his heart to(I posted the quote earlier)

Not the point. The point is that Tifa could say the same thing to Barret (or any other friend) in a similar situation. There's nothing in that conversation which can only be said to someone with whom you have a romantic relationship.

Tifa COULD have told RedXII or Cid or Vincent or Yazoo, but she doesn’t she expresses this towards Cloud and Cloud alone, there is no point in playing the what if game. There are endless possibilities and we’re trying to rely on what we have, not what could be.No?

Yes, but both versions totally fit what happens in the Compilation after the HW scene. It's just as possible for Cloud to wander around with Tifa, Barret, and Marlene after FFVII if Cloud and Tifa are nothing but friends. It's just as possible for Cloud to agree to start a bar with Barret to sell alcohol if Cloud and Tifa are nothing but friends. It's just as possible for Cloud to build the Seventh Heaven with Barret and Tifa if Cloud and Tifa are nothing but friends. It's just as possible for Cloud to start a delivery service if he and Tifa are nothing but friends. It's just as possible for Cloud to live at the Seventh Heaven in his own room if he and Tifa are nothing but friends. It's just as possible for Marlene to invite Cloud into the family if Cloud and Tifa are nothing but friends. It's just as possible for Cloud to catch Geostigma if Cloud and Tifa are nothing but friends. I could go on, but that should give you the idea. There's not a single, solitary thing that can ONLY happen if Cloud and Tifa are in a romantic relationship. It's just as possible that Cloud and Tifa are nothing but friends.

No it’s not possible, because at the VERY beginning of CoT Clopud has Tifa in DIFFERENT way than before, they have already been said to be friends during the game, he has her in a different way, a HA non optional scene points to them being together.

So what? According to Nojima, no one even thought that Tifa's line about "Words aren't the only thing..." would be important when they wrote it:

Interviewer: “Words aren't the only way to tell someone how you feel", that line, right? That's a rather mature conversation for a FF game.
Kitase: "Although I remember we had to tone down a version that was too strong."
Nojima: "The original idea was more extreme. The plan was for Cloud to walk out of the chocobo stable in the airship, followed by Tifa leaving while she kept looking around, but Kitase rejected it. But I think perhaps no one expected that line to be so important [laughs]" ~10th Anniversary Ultimania

So they didn't even think that line was important when they wrote it, which means they didn't think it was important to the story of FFVII. The creators were actually surprised by the reaction of fans. The only thing that makes that scene important is the reaction of fans to it - not what the creators were thinking about the plot when they wrote the scene.

That doesn’t change the fact that it’s still listed as an important scene, ddi they KNOW ff7 was going to be an automatic hit among gamers worldwide either? No, but it still was it still is, and the HA scene importance over the LA scene says something. The LA scene isn’t on the same footing to the HA scene as you like to believe.

Furthermore, Reminiscence summarized the story of FFVII with the most important scenes pertinent to AC/ACC. There were absolutely no references to the HW scene in Reminiscence or in AC/ACC, which frankly means that the HW scene wasn't pertinent or relevant to AC/ACC at all.

Um maybe because it was too risqué to put in the movie…and there were no references to the Date scene either and you deem that as important. And where does it say Reminiscence has the most important scenes again? And why just because it’s related to ACC does that knock down a guidebook that DOES have impressive scenes?

But AC/ACC did include a tribute to the hand reach scene at the end of FFVII, and the hand reach scene was also included in Reminiscence. Cloud saying, "I think I can meet her.... there" was also included in Reminiscence. Also in AC/ACC was a flashback of Aerith's funeral. So I don't think the HW scene is nearly as important as you like to think.

How is Cloud wanting to meet a dead friend with Tifa romantic?(please don’t bring up the sad Tifa face again)And how is a funeral of said dead friend romantic? It’s depressing, and something that hit Cloud the hardest considering HE almost did the killing HIMSELF.

Then how come the script of the LA version is in the FFVII UO? How come the deviation is specified in both the 20th AU as well as in the FFVII UO? How come the pic of the HW scene used on the FTOIL page is from both the LA and HA versions?

How come ALL the dates are shown? Because they ARE POSSIBLE. And maybe because feelings are communicated non optionally.

Please give me the quote saying that because I've never seen it. I've only seen where it says Tifa loves Cloud, but that doesn't necessarily mean that she wants more than a friendship with him. There are times when a person knows it would be a mistake to get romantically involved with someone.

So you’ve never seen the script of Tifa’s date scene then…? Obviously she tries to communicate feelings to Cloud in that date, regardless if she ends up doing it or not she’s interested in a relationship with him. Does Aerith explicitly say she wants a relationship with Cloud either? You know they both do; they don’t need to say “Gee Clouds hot, I like him, I want to be in a relationship with him..” for it to be known that they want a relationship with him.
“Despite his cold behavior in several scenes, Cloud is essentially popular with members of the opposite sex. In addition to FFVII’s heroines Tifa and Aerith both having feelings for him,”(Clouds 10th AU profile)

Off the top of my head, I remember Barret not wanting to pay Cloud more because the money was for Marlene's schooling, and Tifa had to talk him into it. Tifa kept asking Barret not to interrupt Cloud when Cloud was telling them the story in Kalm. Barret asked Tifa in Mideel whether she was sure Cloud wasn't really just a Sephiroth clone. Tifa was upset when Barret said he was going on a journey in CoT. Stuff like that happened between them all the time.

Problems erupted and they Argued over pay AFTER Cloud had just helped them blow something up…

Yes, and I stick by what I said there.

But no where in either of those quotes is it talking about Tifa wanting a relationship with Cloud. Which is what you had said those scenes portrayed.

I was talking about the sequence in which we find the following quote, which you gave me:

"Tifa was able to cope with the sins in her consciousness. She hadn’t forgotten about them. Someday, the day may come when she will be punished. Until that day came, Tifa was going to look ahead and live. She was going to live, not just taking, but proving that she herself can give too."(CoT) ~quoted by Zealkin, http://thelifestream.net/forums/showpost.php?p=381758&postcount=2157

I replied that that quote is in

CoT WAY BEFORE the scene where Cloud is drinking and Tifa says, "Go drink in your room". That is the problem with sequence I was talking about - that quote is not used in reference to the drinking scene.

It’s only a paragraph or two away from the elmyra scene…and just because it’s separate does not mean Tifa’s feelings are dismissed. Why wouldn’t Tifa get pissed at Cloud for drinking like that? Because he didn’t let her join in? Or because he was wallowing? The quote I provided indicates the latter.

And what I said about that situation is that I think it shows that Tifa wanted to help Cloud by offering to have a drink with him - to me, offering to have a drink with him obviously means she wants to talk with him. If she wants to talk with him, then she's trying to reach out to him.

Yes because she’s knows he’s feelings guilty and remembering horrible things. So why did you say differently earlier, is this your stance now?

But the Reunion Files says she doesn't do that. Page 20 says:

She doesn't like what Cloud is doing, but instead of lecturing him about every little thing, she's been waiting for him to realize for himself what he's doing.... I think that using words to help lead Cloud to his own conclusions instead of constant lecture is a defining quality of Tifa's personality. (Nomura) Page 20, RF

She doesn't do that when she tells him to go drink in his room, either. She also doesn't do that in the "dilly dally shilly shally" scene. So where exactly do you think she does that?

Yes she doesn’t like what Cloud is doing, and what is Cloud doing exactly? Wallowing in guilt, ignoring his family, and keeping his deadly disease a secret; which is what I was saying. He was being a jerk.

How is "not understanding the complexities of Cloud's heart" mean that she's angry about everything Cloud has been doing?

As in Cloud distancing himself from his family, him being inconsiderate, and unnecessarily burdening himself with guilt.

Plus, if she's keeping it to herself, she's keeping it to herself - whether it's for the sake of the children, or for the sake of Shinra, or for the sake of whipped cream, I don't care. She's keeping it to herself and WHY she's keeping it to herself doesn't matter. If she's keeping it to herself, then she's not telling Cloud about it.

But we KNOW She voices her feelings about his behavior later on, She tells him why what he was doing is wrong in the bedroom scene..

I discussed that in this post: http://thelifestream.net/forums/showpost.php?p=384842&postcount=2378[/QUOTE]

And again you’ve failed to find one, fine with me.

First of all, even after your quote breakdown, I still see it the same way. Please bear that in mind while I answer different points that you made

1) The bond is not specified. True. But what feelings are shared in the HW scene are not specified, either. So my assumption about the bond between Aerith and Cloud being love is as valid as your assumption about Cloud and Tifa sharing feelings of love under the HW.
2) It makes the most sense for Tifa to be jealous of a bond of love between Aerith and Cloud if Aerith and Tifa are love rivals. Would it make sense for Tifa to be jealous of a bond of friendship if Aerith and Tifa are love rivals?

Except that bond has been reiterated as love SEVEN times with the quotes I have given you. The feelings in the HA scene ARE specified, the complex feelings could be many things, but they ARE NOT specified.

In the world of FFVII, Aerith can be a love rival even though she's deceased because Aerith and Cloud can touch one another, see one another, and communicate with one another in AC/ACC. There is nothing to prove that this relationship does not continue between Cloud and Aerith after AC/ACC.

When does Aerith touch/communicate with Cloud besides in ACC where he is looking for redemption…? This possibility has never been regarded, or mentioned. No dead person continues having a relationship with those that are alive romantically in ff7, and it has never been implied..
And if we’re proving negatives:
Prove to me that Red XII does not like a1 steak sauce.
There's also nothing to prove Barret and Vincent aren't secretly meeting in the woods to watch Nanaki perform Shakespeare.(had to add this one because it is just too epic)

In the first place, the sentence structure actually says:

This was due to the fact that Cloud construed that Denzel was "the child which Aerith brought here" and took care of him.

I don't remember the exact grammatical terminology, but I believe the phrase in between the commas is called an independent clause. It is merely additional information. The main clause is saying that Cloud construed that Denzel was the child that Aerith brought to him. That would be reason enough for Tifa to be jealous if Tifa considers Aerith to be a love rival.

The THIS WAS DUE TO THE FACT modifies the sentence, the this was due to the fact says that Tifa’s complex feelings came from such and such, it tells of a different topic not relevant to her love rival..

However, I still think that the reason for Tifa's jealousy is explained in this sentence:

Nevertheless, it is not hard to imagine that she carries complex feelings as a woman toward Aerith, who had built up a special bond with Cloud that was different from Tifa's.

I think it's explained there because that's where it brings up Aerith and Tifa being love rivals. That's the best place to explain it.

The second paragraph then goes on to give further information about why Tifa's jealous: 1) Cloud thinks that Aerith brought Denzel to him, and 2) Cloud has been visiting Aerith's church.

The second paragraph explains the “this was due to the fact” changing the love rival topic, they are different clauses as many have said before me.

Where does it say that it was Cloud's guilt that led him to the Church? It says that Tifa is irritated because Cloud isn't merely dragging the past around (his guilt) - so his guilt isn't the only reason.

but because that reason might also be related to Aerith. - So in addition to the guilt that Cloud is dragging around, Cloud may still be in love with Aerith, and this makes Tifa jealous.

You’re assuming things mean love again, without any indication of love being mentioned, so here’s a quote:
“Two years after returning to the planet, Aerith still lives on in the hearts of her friends who saved the planet. And in particular to Cloud, as a symbol of his failure to having being unable protect those dear to him, she was a major factor in causing him to close himself off. For Cloud, and the world once again faced with danger, she reaches out and offers her aid.”(Aerith’s 10th AU profile)

That's merely your interpretation.

Since you’ve failed to give a reason why this is such, I guess that means you’re assumptions of my “interpretations” are your own opinion and don’t have any backing behind them.

CoLWhite, for one.

A woman one-sidedly does, what about Cloud’s feelings?

Kitase: When I first read Nojima’s scenario, I felt strongly that his image of a heroine was fresh. The hero didn’t have a typical personality, single-minded or righteous, and Aerith lived in the slums. Those things were really fresh. And having two heroines, Aerith and Tifa, and having the hero waver between them, at the time that was something new. ~Interview with the creators, pg. 8-13, 10th Anniversary Ultimania

Young, beautiful, and somewhat mysterious, Aerith met Cloud while selling flowers on the streets of Midgar. She decided to join him soon after. Her unusual abilities enable her to use magic, but she seems more interested in the deepening love triangle between herself, Cloud and Tifa. ~Aerith's profile, FFVII game manual

I've given other quotes in previous posts. Do I need to repeat them?

I already discussed that extensively in my last post to you:

http://thelifestream.net/forums/showpost.php?p=384842&postcount=2378

I believe I answered this earlier in the post.

Red Bull does not give me wings, so why should I be trusting a commercial again?
These only talk about Aerith’s feelings towards Cloud, Clouds say is nowhere to be found.

Geez that was long.

 

[Master Bates]

Now I don't have problems with interpretations per se, but if it gets tossed around like flying saucers in a factual debate, I start to get skeptical with the person pulling the card. And the way Anastar is raping the "interpretation"/"opinion" word is alarming that I sometimes deem her "misinterpreting" the word "interpretation". Is it just me or is she really contradicting a direct unequivocal quote from a canon source with an "interpretation/opinion" card? Woman, that is so totally wrong. It's not our interpretation/opinion that Cloud is happy with his family, he IS happy. Period. End of. It is not merely our opinion that Cloud is Tifa's beloved-er, it is our objective conclusion backed up with factual evidence while applying Occam's bloody razor.

You are using the interpretation/opinion word like a reflex, almost without thought. That hardly counts anything in a factual debate, and frankly speaking, is quite rude when your opponent is using facts in her arguments while you dismiss it with an "it's only your opinion/it's only your interpretation" statement. That's a very cowardly tactic, I must say.

Yeah, so I'm tired of it. Chill.

 

[Dashell]

Zealkin, good post but your link to the allexperts page is broken. Please fix this before sending it to her. Also just wanted to comment on:

which frankly means that the HW scene wasn't pertinent or relevant to AC/ACC at all.

Correct. Because it's not about Cloud's love life. It's about Cloud getting himself back together.

 

[Vendel]

Yes, but both versions totally fit what happens in the Compilation after the HW scene. It's just as possible for Cloud to wander around with Tifa, Barret, and Marlene after FFVII if Cloud and Tifa are nothing but friends. It's just as possible for Cloud to agree to start a bar with Barret to sell alcohol if Cloud and Tifa are nothing but friends. It's just as possible for Cloud to build the Seventh Heaven with Barret and Tifa if Cloud and Tifa are nothing but friends. It's just as possible for Cloud to start a delivery service if he and Tifa are nothing but friends. It's just as possible for Cloud to live at the Seventh Heaven in his own room if he and Tifa are nothing but friends. It's just as possible for Marlene to invite Cloud into the family if Cloud and Tifa are nothing but friends. It's just as possible for Cloud to catch Geostigma if Cloud and Tifa are nothing but friends.

I could go on, but that should give you the idea. There's not a single, solitary thing that can ONLY happen if Cloud and Tifa are in a romantic relationship. It's just as possible that Cloud and Tifa are nothing but friends.

I think you forgot a few things. Cloud saying he will succeed because he has Tifa in a way that is different from before. Adopting a sick child. Barret and Cid making comments about Tifa being in charge of the relationship between her and Cloud. Tifa asking Cloud if he loves her. I could go on. (Anyone else feel free to add to the list. )

Your list (besides being full of nonsense) also seems to forget that without Tifa's presence none of that would have happened. No bar, no delivery service, no Marlene. None of it.

 

[Ryushikaze]

So, it's been one week since I responded to Aerbear, and nearly a week since Zealkin (the only person who Anastar listens to at present) responded to Anastar, and nary a peep from them on this board.

While one might hope Anastar is taking the time to actually comprehensively respond to the arguments presented in full, this is taking quite some time.
I submit that they may have simply unceremoniously left the discussion, ladies and gentlemen.
Oh well. Twas fun while it lasted.

 

[Dashell]

So, it's been one week since I responded to Aerbear, and nearly a week since Zealkin (the only person who Anastar listens to at present) responded to Anastar, and nary a peep from them on this board.

While one might hope Anastar is taking the time to actually comprehensively respond to the arguments presented in full, this is taking quite some time.
I submit that they may have simply unceremoniously left the discussion, ladies and gentlemen.
Oh well. Twas fun while it lasted.

Dude, this is why Anastar feels rushed to respond to things. Maybe she's taking her time, maybe she's done. I don't know. But you can't constantly tell someone to take their time to respond and then do this when they take a while to respond.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Dude, this is why Anastar feels rushed to respond to things. Maybe she's taking her time, maybe she's done. I don't know. But you can't constantly tell someone to take their time to respond and then do this when they take a while to respond.

Yes I can.
It's called a reminder.
Or a guilt trip, if we're being brutally honest.
Anastar is still welcome to take time to respond, but I do want it known to her and Aerbear that things are not simply forgotten simply because they have been fallow.

And that's being generous and assuming Anastar actually 'felt rushed' and didn't use it as a convenient excuse.

 

[aerbear]

Apathetic. It's more in line with the definition of candid meaning 'free of prejudice or impartial' than 'open and straightforward.

We're told by a few people that it might be candid.

A listing of the events that occurred in the narrative IS telling you the canon with a sledgehammer.

A listing of events that we know can happen in the game is not the sledgehammer.

Basically, SE chooses to go 007 mode. They've never just said what Cloud's feelings are, but they do talk about people thinking for themselves what they haven't said to us. And what's been left unsaid?

Again, does Tifa have to go "Hey, remember when we fucked" for it to have happened? You did not answer that question.

She doesn't. But if they canonically have romantic feelings for each other, it should be included within this here lovely narrative. Like in the novella about their relationship.

If you want to know what actually happens in the story, yes. To Halo, Games are not canon. They resemble, but are not, the actual events. Pillar of Autumn is not 17 miles long, or however long the last level is, for example.

You're saying the games are unreliable?

Uh, wow, that was unnecessarily hostile.

Ahh! I'm sorry, I didn't mean for it to sound like that.

Er.... How?

Because I was talking about the dark and you said darkl-

............

How is it sad that she has a mind of her own?

No, she's not. She's a wonderful sexy bird and doesn't need to change her hobby at all.

I read Quex's post and she said you're talking about your girlfriend? I had no idea. Whenever you would say, "a sexy bird/someone tells me what people write at CxA", I thought you were just making a joke of it all. If I knew, I wouldn't have.

Especially given how informative and amusing it is.

Hence, why Anastar and me are the only ones still here.

The Koibito quote in RF? It tells us that one of Tifa's roles in the world- one of things that's part of her life- is someone's beloved. From there, it is a hop, skip, and cut with Okkam's razor to determine who loves her and would be worth mentioning as part of her life.

And yet they left Cloud's name out, for a reason. Why, if it's canon?

It's not about Cloud not feeling and everything to do with Cloud explicitly not KNOWING. At no point during Aerith's life did Cloud know Aerith's feelings for him- he didn't know Tifa's until later as well- meaning he could not have been her lover or boyfriend. Using the word in the mutual sense would require there to have actually been a relationship, and there never was.

Mutual to me means they feel the same way about each other, regardless of if they know it or not. If "lover" was the word, it could mean that they loved each other, not that they are together. But I know that Anastar doesn't think it absolutely means "lover", but that there's a possibility it does. We can't speak for Nojima, so can we all agree that it just might have been that word?

You keep reading 'answers' as 'multiple answers on the same subject' as opposed to 'answers about different related subjects'
Why is that? Also, Kitase said provide answers, not 'find for ourselves.'

Cloud and Tifa love each other. That's one answer. They never say that there's only one.

Oh, and Quex, neither I nor the sexy bird appreciate your laughing at Aerbear's comment. In the future, Don't.

You shouldn't get upset with Quex. She didn't know.

So, it's been one week since I responded to Aerbear, and nearly a week since Zealkin (the only person who Anastar listens to at present) responded to Anastar, and nary a peep from them on this board.

It's a matter of time, and I'm falling behind on things lately. Plus, I got Skyrim, so.

I submit that they may have simply unceremoniously left the discussion, ladies and gentlemen.
Oh well. Twas fun while it lasted.

I will most likely tell you if I plan on leaving for good.

And as for Anastar, she could use time away, she's been here for awhile. Give the girl some credit.

 

[Dashell]

A reminder is. "Hey guys don't forget to reply to the thread when you get the chance." This:

I submit that they may have simply unceremoniously left the discussion, ladies and gentlemen.

is not a reminder. That's rushing them.

You shouldn't get upset with Quex. She didn't know.

I was fairly certain he meant his GF really. I just like the term sexy bird... even when he said "The sexy bird and I" or whatever he said, it was still kind of funny. It's just a cute name is all

and to be picky

And yet they left Cloud's name out, for a reason. Why, if it's canon?

So she's not really an ally in battle or like a mother? Those don't have names... so those aren't canon?

 

[Ryushikaze]

A reminder is. "Hey guys don't forget to reply to the thread when you get the chance." This:

is not a reminder. That's rushing them.

It's a reminder. And it worked.

I was fairly certain he meant his GF really. I just like the term sexy bird... even when he said "The sexy bird and I" or whatever he said, it was still kind of funny. It's just a cute name is all

and to be picky

So she's not really an ally in battle or like a mother? Those don't have names... so those aren't canon?

Tifa has no status in the world. AT ALL.

We're told by a few people that it might be candid.

Um, who?
And again, candid can mean ' 'free of prejudice or impartial' which is the only candid that word can mean.
Remember, in the full quote, the apathetic version is contrasted against the version that has feelngs. It's the version which has feelings, or the version which is apathetic/ indifferent/ doesn't care.
And feelings happened that night. Period, end of.

A listing of events that we know can happen in the game is not the sledgehammer.

We're told they did happen. That's the point of a Story summary.

Basically, SE chooses to go 007 mode. They've never just said what Cloud's feelings are, but they do talk about people thinking for themselves what they haven't said to us. And what's been left unsaid?[/quote]

Not Cloud's feelings. We've been told he and Tifa confirm he and Tifa confirm mutual romantic feelings.

She doesn't. But if they canonically have romantic feelings for each other, it should be included within this here lovely narrative. Like in the novella about their relationship.

You mean like putting it in a story summary? Or having Cloud talk about how he is sure Tifa will be by his side and be generally positive about his life because of Tifa?
I mean, seriously, do they literally have to explicitly reference something in a narrative for it to have happened?
Seriously, why can you accept what Lucas says about things happening, but can't accept 8 TIMES Square says it?

You're saying the games are unreliable?

That's official policy, actually. Games are less canon than other sources, because the games are there for fun, not for factual accuracy.

Ahh! I'm sorry, I didn't mean for it to sound like that.

Putting 'god forbid' before anything means it's pretty much going to universally come off as hostile.

Because I was talking about the dark and you said darkl-

............

How's it ironic, though?

I get the darkly, but the irony is evading me.

I read Quex's post and she said you're talking about your girlfriend? I had no idea. Whenever you would say, "a sexy bird/someone tells me what people write at CxA", I thought you were just making a joke of it all. If I knew, I wouldn't have.

You've never heard the phrase 'She's one sexy bird' before?
In any case, that's enough on that subject.

Hence, why Anastar and me are the only ones still here.

Wait, because we can see what you say in public elsewhere is why only two of you are here?

That's.... not a favorably thing to reveal about your friends.

And yet they left Cloud's name out, for a reason. Why, if it's canon?

Because it's parsimonious and simple to deduce. Who she's an ally and like a mom too also aren't specified. They weren't mentioned because they weren't required.

Mutual to me means they feel the same way about each other, regardless of if they know it or not. If "lover" was the word, it could mean that they loved each other, not that they are together. But I know that Anastar doesn't think it absolutely means "lover", but that there's a possibility it does. We can't speak for Nojima, so can we all agree that it just might have been that word?

If it is, then Aerith is wrong. The word when used to refer to a relationship actually REQUIRES a relationship. There was none for C/A.

Cloud and Tifa love each other. That's one answer. They never say that there's only one.

Why do you assume there's more than one answer for any given subject? You're evading the question here. Why do you read 'answers' as 'multiple answers on the same subject' as opposed to 'answers about different related subjects?'
And again, Kitase said PROVIDE. As in they are handing us answers. Are you arguing they handed us a deliberate contradiction?

You shouldn't get upset with Quex. She didn't know.

She did, by her own admission.

It's a matter of time, and I'm falling behind on things lately. Plus, I got Skyrim, so.

Did you get a copy for the entire LTD? No? I'm going to have to confiscate yours, then.

I will most likely tell you if I plan on leaving for good.

I was just trying to provoke a response, either a reply or a 'hold on.' It worked.

And as for Anastar, she could use time away, she's been here for awhile. Give the girl some credit.

She refuses to give me any and she exhausted all the credit I extended her initially.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Anastar? Credit? Seriously?

I didn't care to look at what she's had to say in her sanctuary after she went silent, but someone did take it upon themselves to tell me that over the past few days she's been accusing me of making up Japanese text for Case of Barret because "FF Wiki says it was only published in English!" and that if a Japanese version exists, then she has no idea where to find it.

Are you buying that bullshit, aerbear? Is anyone else over there buying it? Someone who constantly makes reference to the Japanese version of Case of the Lifestream White -- which was published in Japanese in the same book as Case of Barret -- has no idea where Japanese text for the story might be found, or if Nojima even wrote it in Japanese at all?

Fucking bullshit.

If she had any credibility left to speak of, it rolled over and died with that. And you know as well as I that if she were genuinely unaware of the Japanese text's existence and genuinely interested in finding out where I got it, she could have simply asked me. Seriously, what the fuck.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

We're told by a few people that it might be candid.

Don't rely on people to tell you. You can just check for yourself. Here's the line in question:

好感度が低いと、ふたりで夜を明かす場面の会話 が淡白で短め。 ("When the affection rating is low, the conversation of the scene where the two spend the evening is candid/apathetic and rather short.")

Here's a scan for verification:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v132/Squall_of_Seed/nightbefore2.jpg

Take that line somewhere like popjisyo.com and confirm it for yourself:

http://www.popjisyo.com/WebHint/Portal_e.aspx

淡白 is the part meaning "candid" or "apathetic." Notice the common theme of all the English words it offers as a possible match:

-candid
-frank
-simple
-indifferent
-ingenuous
-light
-plain

They're all dealing with something that is lacking -- especially impartiality or a lack of feeling. The meaning of "candid" that applies here is obvious.

Also -- and I can't stress this enough -- notice that it refers to the "conversation of the scene where the two spend the evening." Unlike what Anastar would like you to believe, that passage is talking about the scenes we actually see in the game, not magical, hidden events that only she is privy to.

Mutual to me means they feel the same way about each other, regardless of if they know it or not. If "lover" was the word, it could mean that they loved each other, not that they are together. But I know that Anastar doesn't think it absolutely means "lover", but that there's a possibility it does. We can't speak for Nojima, so can we all agree that it just might have been that word?

No, we cannot. Look at "koibito" the way you would "beloved." Someone can be the beloved of someone they aren't in a relationship with. Someone can be the beloved of someone they are in a relationship with (making the other person their beloved as well).

Those are the only ways the word is used, and "koibito" is the same. Both words are typically used in contexts where the feelings are mutual, but that is not nearly the case 100% of the time. "Beloved" simply identifies the object of someone's affection, as does "koibito." Some instances carry the implication of mutuality, some don't -- but the ones that do and don't are obvious.

As hito has said before, Japanese isn't English with squiggles. You can't just plug in a possible word because it "might" mean that. The context informs the translation, not the other way around. You would know which word is appropriate to use based on what you know about the situation it's talking about.

Were Aerith and Cloud ever in an established romantic relationship? No. So "boyfriend" or "lover" is demonstrably not appropriate to the context. "Beloved" is.

For the record, "beloved" is also fine in the Reunion Files koibito quote about Tifa. Its significance there has less to do with a possible mutual implication and more to do with Tifa being referred to as someone's beloved in Advent Children, with that role carrying as much significance as her "like a mother" and "ally in battle" roles.

 

[Dashell]

Anastar? Credit? Seriously?

I didn't care to look at what she's had to say in her sanctuary after she went silent, but someone did take it upon themselves to tell me that over the past few days she's been accusing me of making up Japanese text for Case of Barret because "FF Wiki says it was only published in English!" and that if a Japanese version exists, then she has no idea where to find it.

Are you buying that bullshit, aerbear? Is anyone else over there buying it? Someone who constantly makes reference to the Japanese version of Case of the Lifestream White -- which was published in Japanese in the same book as Case of Barret -- has no idea where Japanese text for the story might be found, or if Nojima even wrote it in Japanese at all?

Fucking bullshit.

If she had any credibility left to speak of, it rolled over and died with that. And you know as well as I that if she were genuinely unaware of the Japanese text's existence and genuinely interested in finding out where I got it, she could have simply asked me. Seriously, what the fuck.

Okay I guess this is my bad... Tres I didn't ask you for a scan of that page and tell you what was going on to piss you off. The only reason I asked if you knew why I wanted it was because you seemed prepared as if you had been expecting it.

And yes, several others asked the same question. Do you think they're also full of bullshit (though one of them I would have said that regardless of this incident) Considering Anastar's focus is usually on the LTD stuff, I'd imagine she only focused on CoLW with that book and that's all she associated with it. I actually thought CoB came out before that honestly and just had a revised version. I'm more annoyed at whoever wrote the Wiki page for spreading false information. I mean, really, Anastar would have to be really fucking stupid to KNOW where CoB came from and try to call you out on the Japanese version she knows exists just to try to make you look bad. Not to say there wasn't any animosity on her end either, it's just not nearly as bad as you're making it out to be.

If she had any credibility left to speak of, it rolled over and died with that. And you know as well as I that if she were genuinely unaware of the Japanese text's existence and genuinely interested in finding out where I got it, she could have simply asked me. Seriously, what the fuck.

though I am curious now, how would you have reacted if she had asked you where you version of CoB came from?