The Love Triangle Debate thread of KNEEL BEFORE ZOD OR SUFFER HIS WRATH (ignore the opening posts at your peril) (Round 6)

[The Twilight Mexican]

And yes, several others asked the same question. Do you think they're also full of bullshit (though one of them I would have said that regardless of this incident) Considering Anastar's focus is usually on the LTD stuff, I'd imagine she only focused on CoLW with that book and that's all she associated with it.

The title of the book sure isn't "On the Way to Clerith," so I really can't fathom anyone assuming that more than one story under the "On the Way to a Smile" title wouldn't be in a book entitled "On the Way to a Smile." Can you?

I actually thought CoB came out before that honestly and just had a revised version.

As far as I can tell, the Japanese text of Case of Barret matches up with the English translation. I don't think this one got a revised edition.

I'm more annoyed at whoever wrote the Wiki page for spreading false information. I mean, really, Anastar would have to be really fucking stupid to KNOW where CoB came from and try to call you out on the Japanese version she knows exists just to try to make you look bad. Not to say there wasn't any animosity on her end either, it's just not nearly as bad as you're making it out to be.

I think it is. I hate to get this fucking petty, but after the shit I've been accused of, my ability to give a fuck is seriously diminished.

So, that bit on the FF Wiki she quoted? "Case of Barret was released exclusively in English, with the North American and European limited edition box set of Advent Children"?

Read the very next sentence:

On the Way to a Smile was released simultaneously with Final Fantasy VII: Advent Children Complete, collecting the short stories in book format, with the Japanese version of Case of Barret, as well as four new stories: Case of Yuffie, Case of Red XIII, Case of Shinra, and Case of the Lifestream.

http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/On_the_Way_to_a_Smile

A quick glance at the page's edit history tells us it hasn't been altered since October 24, so that line was there when she quoted the one above it:

http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/index.php?title=On_the_Way_to_a_Smile&action=history

So, yeah, there's some definite bullshit at work here. I know it's been said that the woman doesn't exactly have Ezio Auditore's Eagle Vision, but, for fuck's sake, it was the very next sentence.

Not to mention that it's simply absurd that any self-identified fan of FFVII who has known about the On the Way to a Smile stories for years -- and has made reference to one of the stories in this book for years -- would be unaware of Case of Barret being in there.

You might think it's still possible, though, so look at the first post in that thread over there:

(June 11, 2009)

ALL of the new novella's are being translated!

All translations can be found here:

FFVII Web Novels

These are NOT official translations! These are FAN translations by XComp, but they still give a good idea of the stories. You can find all of the current translations here: FFVII Web Novels, including:

Case of Denzel - translation complete Case of Denzel

Case of Tifa - translation complete: Case of Tifa - Revised

OLD VERSION - CoT: Case of Tifa - first version

Case of Barret: OLD VERSION Case of Barret - first version

Case of Nanaki - translation complete: Case of Nanaki

Case of Yuffie - translation complete Case of Yuffie

Case of Shinra - translation complete Case of Shinra

Case of Lifestream: Same version found at Lifestream.net. Translation by Hitoshura.

Source: http://s8.zetaboards.com/Cloud_x_Aerith/single/?p=285315&t=530201

And then 16 posts later, there's this:

Case of Denzel isn't new. It first came out in 2007, but it wasn't revised with the new edition of OTWTAS.

Case of Tifa on FFVII Web Novels is the OLD version (2007). The revised version is here: Case of Tifa - Revised

Case of Barret on FFVII Web Novels is also the OLD version (2007). The revised version of CoB hasn't been translated yet.

Source: http://s8.zetaboards.com/Cloud_x_Aerith/single/?p=286793&t=530201

So ... she knew about the book and what was in it two years ago. We have "Case of Barret" and "translated" in the same line of thought here. She knew that Case of Barret was in Japanese in this book.

Does she suffer from the same condition as the dude in "Memento" on top of having the Anti-Eagle Vision?

She also talks about reading Case of Barret, Nanaki, Yuffie and Shin-Ra. There was complete familiarity with all of On the Way to a Smile on her part.

Oh, and there's that thread about the official German release of the On the Way to a Smile book -- where Case of Barret is the first story mentioned:

http://s8.zetaboards.com/Cloud_x_Aerith/topic/531405/1/

So, tell me, how should I feel?

though I am curious now, how would you have reacted if she had asked you where you version of CoB came from?

Probably with indignation about the question even being proposed given that the story having a Japanese release is common knowledge, but then I would have given her the scan I gave you.

 

[Dashell]

Okay I really don't wanna talk about Anastar for the next 5 pages, XD so I'm just going to give my brief thoughts on this and talk to you in more detail about it in a PM, okay? Besides this will probably all be removed anyway

What you've shown me here is ... interesting. I would certainly like to see her response to all this and what her thought process was. I'm not going to condemn her just yet because I'm a stubborn bitch like that but more importantly, I would like to know what she has to gain by making you look like a liar.

 

[Strangelove]

'Case of ~' kind of bugs me now that both the full novel and the OVA with ACC when with 'Episode ~' (except Lifestream Black/White IIRC?). It's like 'First Tsurugi' all over again

 

[Ryushikaze]

Tres, to Anastar, EVERYTHING is LT related, so it might as well be Case of Clerith.
That just makes the companion case of Clephiroth.

Okay I really don't wanna talk about Anastar for the next 5 pages, XD so I'm just going to give my brief thoughts on this and talk to you in more detail about it in a PM, okay? Besides this will probably all be removed anyway

What you've shown me here is ... interesting. I would certainly like to see her response to all this and what her thought process was. I'm not going to condemn her just yet because I'm a stubborn bitch like that but more importantly, I would like to know what she has to gain by making you look like a liar.

Plenty of things. Primarily protecting her ability to twist and recast the English in tortuous ways and protect her hypothesis.
And Quex, how many second chances are you going to give that woman?

'Case of ~' kind of bugs me now that both the full novel and the OVA with ACC when with 'Episode ~' (except Lifestream Black/White IIRC?). It's like 'First Tsurugi' all over again

Well, in this case, I think it's more a convenient appelation than a 'This is what it is!' thing. CoT and CoB make for better distinguished acronyms than E.T. and E.B.

 

[Strangelove]

But if we all know we're talking about OTWTAS, while would be (or become) clear from the context of the conversation, E... instead of Co... doesn't really make much different.

Some people like Aeris better but that doesn't stop Aerith from being what Square's going with now.

 

[Ryushikaze]

But if we all know we're talking about OTWTAS, while would be (or become) clear from the context of the conversation, E... instead of Co... doesn't really make much different.

Some people like Aeris better but that doesn't stop Aerith from being what Square's going with now.

Oh, I'm not saying it's official or anything, or that preference dictates what's real. I'm just saying it's catchier, more or less, easier to remember, and that's why folks are using it.
It's wrong, sure, but to use Aerith/Aeris, so's Aeris, and people still use it.

 

[Strangelove]

I just think people should use the proper terms, instead of making incorrect ones into the most well-known. That the FFWiki (which should be using what's correct and not just what fans like better, IMO) is calling them all 'Case of ~' is daft when the only ones ever given that title were Denzel and Tifa when they featured in the AC Prologue book. None of the others have ever being called that. The English versions from the AC collector's edition just used the characters names alone, and the novel uses 'Episode: ~' and 'LIFE STREAM Black/White'.

But like 'First Tsurugi', despite it already have been confirmed to be wrong, people still use it because when everyone keeps on using the wrong one, people who are just learning about it think that's what it is supposed to be.

Which might be how Anastar picks up her erroneous knowledge in part, since I believe she doesn't read/watch/play everything and goes on what other people have told her.

 

[Ryushikaze]

I just think people should use the proper terms, instead of making incorrect ones into the most well-known. That the FFWiki (which should be using what's correct and not just what fans like better, IMO) is calling them all 'Case of ~' is daft when the only ones ever given that title were Denzel and Tifa when they featured in the AC Prologue book. None of the others have ever being called that. The English versions from the AC collector's edition just used the characters names alone, and the novel uses 'Episode: ~' and 'LIFE STREAM Black/White'.

But like 'First Tsurugi', despite it already have been confirmed to be wrong, people still use it because when everyone keeps on using the wrong one, people who are just learning about it think that's what it is supposed to be.

Which might be how Anastar picks up her erroneous knowledge in part, since I believe she doesn't read/watch/play everything and goes on what other people have told her.

In that case, I do agree. Haphazard parlance is different from supposed repositories of knowledge, and the repositories SHOULD strive to be correct.
Which just means we need to start an edit war correct the information on the Wiki.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I just think people should use the proper terms, instead of making incorrect ones into the most well-known. That the FFWiki (which should be using what's correct and not just what fans like better, IMO) is calling them all 'Case of ~' is daft when the only ones ever given that title were Denzel and Tifa when they featured in the AC Prologue book.

That's why I refer to all of them with that title. At the very least, that was the name given to Denzel and Tifa's stories, and it just makes sense to be consistent.

That being said, I do agree that the FF Wiki should strive for being thorough. It needs to specify what things have been entitled at every point.

 

[aerbear]

I was fairly certain he meant his GF really.

I feel so slowwwwww.

Um, who?
And again, candid can mean ' 'free of prejudice or impartial' which is the only candid that word can mean.

Doesn't candid mean honest?

Remember, in the full quote, the apathetic version is contrasted against the version that has feelngs. It's the version which has feelings, or the version which is apathetic/ indifferent/ doesn't care.

You can express your feelings carelessly. We know that Cloud felt like he had Tifa at his side that night. It shows that it isn't trying to say they treat or feel indifferently towards each other. So either way stands.

And feelings happened that night. Period, end of.

Didn't say that it didn't.

We're told they did happen. That's the point of a Story summary.

It's picking a version of an optional scene. Oooh.

Not Cloud's feelings. We've been told he and Tifa confirm he and Tifa confirm mutual romantic feelings.

Optional scene. How's that for canon?

You mean like putting it in a story summary? Or having Cloud talk about how he is sure Tifa will be by his side and be generally positive about his life because of Tifa?

That means he must love her like that? You can't be happy having someone's company without getting frisky?

I mean, seriously, do they literally have to explicitly reference something in a narrative for it to have happened?

Where does it say in a narrative that Cloud loves Tifa, Cloud and Tifa are together? That would end this whole thing.

Seriously, why can you accept what Lucas says about things happening, but can't accept 8 TIMES Square says it?

Because it's in the narrative.

Maybe KotOR wasn't the best example. I'll try something else... Is a male soldier named John the canon Commander Shepard because he's in all of the promotions and guides? Is a male Nord named Bendu Olo the canon Dragonborn because he's in the manuals?

That's official policy, actually. Games are less canon than other sources, because the games are there for fun, not for factual accuracy.

Master Chief and Cortana weren't floating in half of Forward Unto Dawn until a Halo guide said so?

Putting 'god forbid' before anything means it's pretty much going to universally come off as hostile.

Um.

How's it ironic, though?

I get the darkly, but the irony is evading me.

Darkly. That's the irony.

You've never heard the phrase 'She's one sexy bird' before?
In any case, that's enough on that subject.

Alright.

Wait, because we can see what you say in public elsewhere is why only two of you are here?

That's.... not a favorably thing to reveal about your friends.

No. Because you find us "amusing" and talk about us with people who "quite frankly find us all absolutely hilarious."

Because it's parsimonious and simple to deduce. Who she's an ally and like a mom too also aren't specified. They weren't mentioned because they weren't required.

An ally and a mom is describing Tifa, is it not? Tifa is also loved - isn't that describing her, too?

If it is, then Aerith is wrong. The word when used to refer to a relationship actually REQUIRES a relationship. There was none for C/A.

Doesn't koibito just mean people love each other?

Why do you assume there's more than one answer for any given subject? You're evading the question here. Why do you read 'answers' as 'multiple answers on the same subject' as opposed to 'answers about different related subjects?'

He was talking specifically about the LT. Not anything else. That's 'multiple answers on the same subject.'

And again, Kitase said PROVIDE. As in they are handing us answers. Are you arguing they handed us a deliberate contradiction?

He said it would provide some sort of answers for us. Maybe most importantly, it means he wasn't expecting us to think anything was canon before the movie.

She did, by her own admission.

I see that. I meant, I don't think she was trying to be offensive.

I was just trying to provoke a response, either a reply or a 'hold on.' It worked.

Only because I happened to look a little while after you posted.

Anastar? Credit? Seriously?

Anastar? A human being with feelings that shouldn't get hurt over a fictional character debate? Seriously?

I didn't care to look at what she's had to say in her sanctuary

*thinks of song from Kingdom Hearts 2*

after she went silent, but someone did take it upon themselves to tell me that over the past few days she's been accusing me of making up Japanese text for Case of Barret because "FF Wiki says it was only published in English!" and that if a Japanese version exists, then she has no idea where to find it.

And it seems that person took it upon themselves to lie. She didn't accuse you of anything. I don't think your name was brought up at all until Quex told us that you have the Japanese version of CoB and gave us a scan. No one was accusing anybody of anything; the article was just a little misleading, so we weren't sure if the Japanese text being mentioned here was translated by fans from the English one or official.

Are you buying that bullshit, aerbear? Is anyone else over there buying it? Someone who constantly makes reference to the Japanese version of Case of the Lifestream White -- which was published in Japanese in the same book as Case of Barret -- has no idea where Japanese text for the story might be found, or if Nojima even wrote it in Japanese at all?

There is no CoL:W in English. That's the only difference.

Fucking bullshit.

If she had any credibility left to speak of, it rolled over and died with that. And you know as well as I that if she were genuinely unaware of the Japanese text's existence and genuinely interested in finding out where I got it, she could have simply asked me.

I think you're a cool guy, Tres, but after everything that's been said about Anastar here, I don't blame her for not feeling comfortable asking.

Seriously, what the fuck.

To this, I have one thing to say: goosfraba.

Okay I guess this is my bad...

Gahh, I just saw this. So it was all a misunderstanding, then.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Doesn't candid mean honest?

It can. It can also mean without prejudice or bias. That's a definition more in line with indifference and apathy.

You can express your feelings carelessly. We know that Cloud felt like he had Tifa at his side that night. It shows that it isn't trying to say they treat or feel indifferently towards each other. So either way stands.

No, it says the CONVERSATION is indifferent, the CONVERSATION is apathetic. IT has no feelings either way. IT is contrasted against the version THAT HAS FEELINGS.
You keep missing this point. I keep wondering if you're doing it deliberately.

Didn't say that it didn't.

Good. Then the low version didn't happen.
Because the version with feelings is contrasted with that version in the UO.
QED.

It's picking a version of an optional scene. Oooh.

It's saying which version happened.

Optional scene. How's that for canon?

Canon scene. Because we're told that's what happened, without any mention of which version. If one scene simply cannot contain that occurence, then it did not happen.

That means he must love her like that? You can't be happy having someone's company without getting frisky?

You asked for indications of it in the narative.

Where does it say in a narrative that Cloud loves Tifa, Cloud and Tifa are together? That would end this whole thing.

It says it that Cloud moved in with, started a family with, and is happy with Tifa. Their friends said they were together, that Tifa wore the pants in their relationship. The writer said they belong together. The STORY SUMMARY for AC says they belong together.
What the fuck more do you need?

Because it's in the narrative.

No. It's not. When Lucasfilm says 'THIS HAPPENED,' it is NOT in the narrative. It tells you what's IN the narrative, but isn't. Same thing here. You accept it with Lucas, but not here. What's DIFFERENT?
Why the double standard?

Maybe KotOR wasn't the best example. I'll try something else... Is a male soldier named John the canon Commander Shepard because he's in all of the promotions and guides? Is a male Nord named Bendu Olo the canon Dragonborn because he's in the manuals?

Are those official story summaries? No? Then don't make false comparisons.

Master Chief and Cortana weren't floating in half of Forward Unto Dawn until a Halo guide said so?

Take it up with Halo, not me. It's their policy. Games resemble, but are not, the actual story.

Um.

What? Do you disagree? Do you accept the statement made? What?

Darkly. That's the irony.

That's not ironic.

No. Because you find us "amusing" and talk about us with people who "quite frankly find us all absolutely hilarious."

Yes, because so many of them talk a huge game but can't find the cojones to bring their 'crushing' arguments anywhere where they might be smacked down.
It's quite simple. They talk shit when they think there's no danger, but never actually go anywhere to make good on that shittalking. That's hilarious.

An ally and a mom is describing Tifa, is it not? Tifa is also loved - isn't that describing her, too?

It is. But to be loved, she must be loved by someone. Romantically. She must be a mom TO someone, and ally TO someone. There must be someone for her to be these things TO. It's not her fucking personality, it's her roles in life.

Doesn't koibito just mean people love each other?

No. If it's used in the sense of mutuality, it's going to be used to describe something actualized.
Regardless, even if you do stretch it that far, it's STILL entirely presumptuous for Aerith to use it in such a fashion.

He was talking specifically about the LT. Not anything else. That's 'multiple answers on the same subject.'

No, he wasn't. Why do you assume that quote speaks only of the Love Triangle? And still, why would they GIVE US multiple contradictory answers in the same medium?

He said it would provide some sort of answers for us. Maybe most importantly, it means he wasn't expecting us to think anything was canon before the movie.

It means nothing of the sort. There can be a canon answer with questions left over.
'Hey, what did they do AFTER the game' is one such answer. 'Have they had any kids' is another. Hey! Multiple answers, and ones that don't contradict each other.

Only because I happened to look a little while after you posted.

It still works.

Anastar? A human being with feelings that shouldn't get hurt over a fictional character debate? Seriously?

And yet she does get hurt. Over NOTHING. She got mortally offended I called her SILLY and now she's accusing Tres of MAKING SHIT UP.
Tres is a human being too, Aerbear.

And it seems that person took it upon themselves to lie. She didn't accuse you of anything. I don't think your name was brought up at all until Quex told us that you have the Japanese version of CoB and gave us a scan. No one was accusing anybody of anything; the article was just a little misleading, so we weren't sure if the Japanese text being mentioned here was translated by fans from the English one or official.

In which case how the fuck did Anastar forget about a novella she herself recognized as being published in Japanese by S-E?

There is no CoL:W in English. That's the only difference.

That's not what Tres was talking about at all. How does 'there's no english COLW' have anything to do with Anastar forgetting about the novella she herself posted about being released by Square-Enix?

I think you're a cool guy, Tres, but after everything that's been said about Anastar here, I don't blame her for not feeling comfortable asking.

You do know that what's been said about her is a direct result of the way she's been ACTING, right?
SHE ignored responses, she's been making excuses, she's been caught in direct contradictions and flip flopping between positions to whatever suits her fancy at any given moment.
Anastar, whatever positive traits she may have, is not good at debating.

And I see the current argument is that 'They could just be sharing the place, LIKE ROOMMATES!'

Seriously, you're basically telling us at this point that you even refuse to consider C/T. The goalposts keep shifting, the standards keep changing, at the very least, just admit you don't WANT it to be canon instead of acting like this is some sort of intellectual stance. It's obvious from a quick glance anywhere else that it's preference, not inference.

 

[Strangelove]

That's why I refer to all of them with that title. At the very least, that was the name given to Denzel and Tifa's stories, and it just makes sense to be consistent.

You will never know how disappoint I am in you now, son. I will have to whip you into shape.

While I'm waiting for the database errors to go away, I'll type stuff about the only thread I can still read:

It's picking a version of an optional scene. Oooh.

I'm sure someone's said this before, but things like the Highwind scene or the date event aren't optional. Player-influenced, but regardless they still happen. Getting Yuffie and Vincent is optional, Wutai is optional, the Shinra manor basement scene (flashback with Zack) is optional, Lucretia's cave is optional. You can opt out of doing any of those. But you can't not see the Highwind or date scenes, they are completely unavoidable and thus you have no option about it. But which you see will change depending on what you've done.

Is a male soldier named John the canon Commander Shepard because he's in all of the promotions and guides? Is a male Nord named Bendu Olo the canon Dragonborn because he's in the manuals?

That's a completely different thing, though. They obviously can't include every single variation of the characters you can make in other RPGs like Mass Effect in every promo or guide. So they just pick a default.

But there's only 2 versions of the Highwind scene (and in essence 2 of the date, because who takes the Yuffie and Barret date seriously in all honesty?). That's not a difficult choice if you wanted to show what's the 'canon' scene, unlike the hundreds of possibilities of Shepards you could make. While you're suppose to empathise with Cloud in FFVII, it's not the same as more open ended games like Western style RPGs that get you to create an avatar and make more choices than occasional 2-option dialogue branches.

Doesn't koibito just mean people love each other?

That there is a relationship is usually implicit by using it.

That's honestly why it always came across as strange in LSW (I'm gonna use my own, correct abbreviations and you're all gonna stop being dumbasses take it and comply).

Snow is Serah's koibito in FFXIII (before moving on to konyakusha), but they clearly had a relationship that had been there before the story began (even before Episode Zero). But where in FFVII do Cloud and Aerith have that kind of relationship? They go on one date where Cloud is mostly clueless. I think Cloud felt something special for Aerith, but they never had the chance to move their relationship on because they were fighting monsters and then she died. I don't see their mutually having feelings for each other being incompatible with how the rest of the stories go.

I accept it for Tifa and Cloud having a relationship on the basis that: 1) they reveal how they feel about each other at the end of FFVII; 2) post-FFVII they have a troubled start to their relationship; 3) things are resolved in AC and they can make another go at it from then on. Since it was said in the context of AC, I can understand it more easily. I don't think they had anything going on until at least the Highwind scene, and nothing proper until after FFVII.

I suppose if you distil it down to its most basic meaning, it only really requires that two people are in a relationship where they love (romantically) each other. But I think in the majority of case, people are going to see it and think 'dating'.


but i guess nojima just didn't want to piss off all those ~rabid~ clerith fans and had to throw that bone in there do they don't get mad and stop buying stuff

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Doesn't candid mean honest?

You should be concerning yourself with the Japanese word rather than focusing on one of its possible English translations (which is a word that itself has some significant differences in meaning). I explained to you in the post right after the one you did reply to -- and provided you the means to verify for yourself -- why the "honest" meaning of candid does not fit the context of the Japanese word:

Don't rely on people to tell you. You can just check for yourself. Here's the line in question:

好感度が低いと、ふたりで夜を明かす場面の会話 が淡白で短め。 ("When the affection rating is low, the conversation of the scene where the two spend the evening is candid/apathetic and rather short.")

Here's a scan for verification:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...ghtbefore2.jpg

Take that line somewhere like popjisyo.com and confirm it for yourself:

http://www.popjisyo.com/WebHint/Portal_e.aspx

淡白 is the part meaning "candid" or "apathetic." Notice the common theme of all the English words it offers as a possible match:

-candid
-frank
-simple
-indifferent
-ingenuous
-light
-plain

They're all dealing with something that is lacking -- especially impartiality or a lack of feeling. The meaning of "candid" that applies here is obvious.

Also -- and I can't stress this enough -- notice that it refers to the "conversation of the scene where the two spend the evening." Unlike what Anastar would like you to believe, that passage is talking about the scenes we actually see in the game, not magical, hidden events that only she is privy to.

An ally and a mom is describing Tifa, is it not? Tifa is also loved - isn't that describing her, too?

Then someone has to love her/she needs to actually be someone's koibito in order for it to describe her. Just like she actually has to be an ally to someone in order to be an ally.

Doesn't koibito just mean people love each other?

It means the koibito is the beloved of someone. It may be mutual, it may not, just like beloved. I explained this in the same post as "candid":

Look at "koibito" the way you would "beloved." Someone can be the beloved of someone they aren't in a relationship with. Someone can be the beloved of someone they are in a relationship with (making the other person their beloved as well).

Those are the only ways the word is used, and "koibito" is the same. Both words are typically used in contexts where the feelings are mutual, but that is not nearly the case 100% of the time. "Beloved" simply identifies the object of someone's affection, as does "koibito." Some instances carry the implication of mutuality, some don't -- but the ones that do and don't are obvious.

As hito has said before, Japanese isn't English with squiggles. You can't just plug in a possible word because it "might" mean that. The context informs the translation, not the other way around. You would know which word is appropriate to use based on what you know about the situation it's talking about.

Were Aerith and Cloud ever in an established romantic relationship? No. So "boyfriend" or "lover" is demonstrably not appropriate to the context. "Beloved" is.

For the record, "beloved" is also fine in the Reunion Files koibito quote about Tifa. Its significance there has less to do with a possible mutual implication and more to do with Tifa being referred to as someone's beloved in Advent Children, with that role carrying as much significance as her "like a mother" and "ally in battle" roles.

He was talking specifically about the LT. Not anything else. That's 'multiple answers on the same subject.'

The subject was "Cloud, Tifa, and Aerith's relationship." Multiple, non-contradicting answers on the same topic could be the nature of Cloud's feelings for Tifa and his feelings for Aerith, where he may have romantic feelings for one and not the other.

And not just Cloud's feelings for the women, but their feelings for each other ("Cherishing Aerith is Tifa's honest feeling" -- AC section of Tifa's 10th Anniversary Ultimania profile) are also matters within that same subject ("Cloud, Tifa, and Aerith's relationship"), granting a plurality for the word "answers."

He said it would provide some sort of answers for us. Maybe most importantly, it means he wasn't expecting us to think anything was canon before the movie.

Which means nothing in the six+ years since his statement (including the movie he was talking about) could establish anything concrete?

Anastar? A human being with feelings that shouldn't get hurt over a fictional character debate? Seriously?

Guess I'm something less than human. She sure didn't give a shit about my feelings, did she?

And it seems that person took it upon themselves to lie. She didn't accuse you of anything.

Yes, she did. She said she didn't believe what I said was true, so ... what does that mean?

She said: "Well, frankly - if they don't trust me, why should I trust them?

" -- while repeatedly citing information that she was implying should mean I don't have access to the Japanese text of the story. I mean, fuck, how much clearer can the accusation factor of this thing be?

And I've already thoroughly gone over why it's obvious she was faking that whole thing about not really knowing Case of Barret had a Japanese release (a post which I notice you ignored along with the one about "candid"):

http://thelifestream.net/forums/showpost.php?p=390546&postcount=2451

I don't think your name was brought up at all until Quex told us that you have the Japanese version of CoB and gave us a scan.

And who do you think was the "Cloti in the TLS debate [who] was insisting that the Japanese ... specifies that the house belongs to just Cloud and Tifa, not Barret Cloud and Tifa" that Anastar was talking about? Who else in this thread was providing Japanese text for Case of Barret? Come on.

No one was accusing anybody of anything; the article was just a little misleading ...

What article? She was referring to posts in this thread. She said "the TLS debate." =|

... so we weren't sure if the Japanese text being mentioned here was translated by fans from the English one or official.

=| Yeah, I got no reason to feel insulted. What the fuck.

There is no CoL:W in English. That's the only difference.

Missing the point significantly -- I'm saying she knows about the book the Japanese Case of Barret is in, and constantly makes reference to it.

I think you're a cool guy, Tres, but after everything that's been said about Anastar here, I don't blame her for not feeling comfortable asking.

What about everything she's said about me? Seriously.

Not that any of that has anything to do with verifiable facts, which she could easily ask about if she was ever actually curious and not just trying to make me look like a liar.

Gahh, I just saw this. So it was all a misunderstanding, then.

If only.

 

[Dashell]

Gahh, I just saw this. So it was all a misunderstanding, then.

If only.

I think she means she thought I got you angry on purpose then read that I didn't mean to.... or ... idk maybe not, I'm not really sure what's what anymore.

And I've already thoroughly gone over why it's obvious she was faking that whole thing about not really knowing Case of Barret had a Japanese release (a post which I notice you ignored along with the one about "candid"):

Well I sent this to you on face book but I basically said it's possible she just got excited that she found something that would help prove her point and either forgot that CoB had been released in Japan or thought she had been wrong about it.

EDIT
and I'm not saying that's for sure what happened, it's just a suggestion. But you know me I'm always giving people the benefit of the doubt so maybe I'm wrong. I'd still like to hear her thoughts on it tbh.

EDIT II
And ... sorry if it seems like I'm just totally taking her side. I can understand why you're upset Tres, but... you have such a great reputation out there in the fandom... even if Anastar really WAS trying to tell lies about you and say "Guys Tres is a liar, I have proof!" I just really don't think it'd effect you that badly. At most some people on her forum might think you're a liar, but I don't think it'd effect your reputation in the greater Final Fantasy fandom.

 

[Master Bates]

You have such a great reputation out there in the fandom... even if Anastar really WAS trying to tell lies about you and say "Guys Tres is a liar, I have proof!" I just really don't think it'd effect you that badly. At most some people on her forum might think you're a liar, but I don't think it'd effect your reputation in the greater Final Fantasy fandom.

Actually, it would. Perhaps for the OG fans, Tres is a legend. But for the newer fans (and there are many of them) of the compilation (esp. those who became fans after watching AC/C), Tres is not quite known. Perhaps due to his long absence from the fandom, I dunno, but I'm fairly certain most newer fans I encounter don't even know the name "Squall of Seed" and his legendary articles. To these fans, lies against Tres are "acceptable" even with little to no basis because... well... they're new. They are prone to gullibility and that would damage Tres' reputation to them. And that's not cool.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Well I sent this to you on face book but I basically said it's possible she just got excited that she found something that would help prove her point and either forgot that CoB had been released in Japan or thought she had been wrong about it.

EDIT
and I'm not saying that's for sure what happened, it's just a suggestion. But you know me I'm always giving people the benefit of the doubt so maybe I'm wrong.

I know you do, and that's a wonderful thing about you. It makes me want to hug you. You have a sincerely kind nature and never stop believing in people's better nature. And you might even be right that their better nature will always win out in the end.

I like to believe in people's better nature too, but after a certain threshhold, I accept that we won't be seeing it.

EDIT II
And ... sorry if it seems like I'm just totally taking her side.

Don't apologize to me for doing what you believe in. You're a good person. Keep on being you, sweety.

I can understand why you're upset Tres, but... you have such a great reputation out there in the fandom... even if Anastar really WAS trying to tell lies about you and say "Guys Tres is a liar, I have proof!" I just really don't think it'd effect you that badly. At most some people on her forum might think you're a liar, but I don't think it'd effect your reputation in the greater Final Fantasy fandom.

Well, for me, this goes beyond my reputation in this fandom, and strikes at my reputation as a person. I think someone who did lie about a fairly inconsequential topic like this is revealing much about their character in general.

Not to mention that -- even if I haven't had a steady job doing it for a while -- I'm a journalist. Attacking my honesty is a really big deal.

 

[Dashell]

Well, for me, this goes beyond my reputation in this fandom, and strikes at my reputation as a person. I think someone who did lie about a fairly inconsequential topic like this is revealing much about their character in general.

Not to mention that -- even if I haven't had a steady job doing it for a while -- I'm a journalist. Attacking my honesty is a really big deal.

Oh shit, I didn't think about that

But at least it's pretty easy to prove you were being honest
I would hope your superiors would ask you about it and not just assume you were lying. That's a good point though, I can certainly see why this is a problem.

 

[Danseru-kun]

You know, I had planned to write an LTD thread analysis but all these unfair treatment depresses me. I mean, if someone has to accuse someone of lying, he/she has to do it here, not in others sites where the person isn't present. That's a poor way of trying to win a debate.

Anyway, guys, how about you gather all your reliable translators and make a document/manifesto of why translations are like that and challenge those who disagree for a debate. I'm bothered by the opposition to these translations by people who don't even know Japanese. I myself don't know Japanese but when I see translators explaining why such is such, it makes me believe them. I won't believe people who pick out dictionary translations that fit them the most.

 

[Dashell]

I don't think anyone was arguing about the translation itself, just where the Japanese version came from...I think... feel free to prove me wrong.

Though JayM pointed out something that I thought was interesting. Someone brought up the point that if Sally, Sharona and Devin all live together in a house, and you say "I'm going over to Devin and Sharona's" that doesn't mean that only those two own the house. So they thought maybe by saying "Cloud and Tifa's house" it could belong to Barret as well as Cloud and Tifa.

But then JayM pointed something out that I found very fascinating and I hope she doesn't mind me posting it here. (Hito I'd like to hear your thoughts on this as well.) I asked if there would be a difference in the way the sentence is worded in Japanese if they were saying it's Cloud and Tifa's house if it also belonged to Barret vs what the Japanese version said:

You'd use "ya" instead of "to" (や instead of と, rather, if you want to look at the kana).

So if they were trying to say it was Cloud'n'Tifa'n'Barret's place but they only wanted to mention C&T, it'd be クラウドやティファの家 instead. や implies the list of stuff you're connecting is incomplete. There's other ways you could switch the sentence around to imply similar things but that one's the simplest.

Someday I hope to know as much about Japanese as our wonderful translators

Anyway thought that was neat
So if anyone tries to give ownership to Barret anymore, well... just no

 

[Danseru-kun]

Well not just the Cloud/Tifa place but the "koibito" ones and the "communicated feelings" as well. All those disputable Japanese words. Whatever helps the LTD.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Yeah, JayM's right. "Ya" is used for incomplete lists, "to" for complete ones.

The house simply is not Barret's.

 

[Theozilla]

Yeah, JayM's right. "Ya" is used for incomplete lists, "to" for complete ones.

The house simply is not Barret's.

Also doesn't the present day footage/dialogue from Reminiscence of Final Fantasy VII mention Barret having his own place. That Cloud needs to pick something up from Barret's place?

 

[Ryushikaze]

Yes, it's a call from Yuffie who says he needs to pick up something from Barret's place, which turn out to be a present for Marlene and a 'closed' sign Yuffie left for him.

 

[Strangelove]

I don't think it'd effect your reputation in the greater Final Fantasy fandom.

Tres you fucker, what are you doing being all e-famous and shit.

Anyway, guys, how about you gather all your reliable translators and make a document/manifesto of why translations are like that and challenge those who disagree for a debate. I'm bothered by the opposition to these translations by people who don't even know Japanese. I myself don't know Japanese but when I see translators explaining why such is such, it makes me believe them. I won't believe people who pick out dictionary translations that fit them the most.

I think that was Tres' idea when he talked about rewriting his LTD article. Explain why these choices were made, and the decisions that lead to them.

Of course, it wouldn't be needed if people just asked about it in the first place. But herpderp, i guess it's easier to just say it's all lies and go write some bullshit about cait sith pulling tickets out of his arse to tell the future.

But then JayM pointed something out that I found very fascinating and I hope she doesn't mind me posting it here. (Hito I'd like to hear your thoughts on this as well.) I asked if there would be a difference in the way the sentence is worded in Japanese if they were saying it's Cloud and Tifa's house if it also belonged to Barret vs what the Japanese version said:

I agree with this, but that doesn't mean much because it's all factually correct and it'd be stupid not to agree I hadn't thought of this, though I stayed out of the whole issue because I thought what Tres had said was enough.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Tres you fucker, what are you doing being all e-famous and shit.

You're so pretty I can easily make you famous, doll.

I think that was Tres' idea when he talked about rewriting his LTD article. Explain why these choices were made, and the decisions that lead to them.

Yeah, that's going to be a big part of it. The Japanese text -- as well as scans where possible (and I've surprised myself at just how many scans or other Japanese sources I've been able to accumulate) -- will be provided for everything, and explanations will be provided for anything particularly "sensitive."

Readers will, of course, be encouraged to take the Japanese text elsewhere to confirm it for themselves as well.

Of course, it wouldn't be needed if people just asked about it in the first place. But herpderp, i guess it's easier to just say it's all lies and go write some bullshit about cait sith pulling tickets out of his arse to tell the future.

I feel like this represents where hito's mind was when he read about the "tickets" thing:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5jsT12bkDIg