The Love Triangle Debate thread of KNEEL BEFORE ZOD OR SUFFER HIS WRATH (ignore the opening posts at your peril) (Round 6)

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Dashell

SMILE!
AKA
Sonique, Quexinos, Pinkie Pie, Derpy Hooves
oh and one more thing just to super duper clarify, I'm NOT talking about the quotes Celes posted. While I agree with her that they point toward Cloti, those quotes don't specify romance. I'm talking about the ones I posted here:

http://thelifestream.net/forums/showpost.php?p=370963&postcount=1484

Those are quotes about the HA scene (that we are told BY Square is romantic, yes I know it's optional but in this case it doesn't matter, I'm trying to prove a point) and quotes saying Cloud fell in love with Tifa as a kid (dimly/past doesn't matter). If that isn't making myself super duper clear, then I guess I'm the worst explainer ever :monster:
 

Fairheartstrife

[no fucks given]
AKA
FHS, that cloti bitch
No he doesn't. He was close to death, but not actually dead.

Is there a specification quote? Not trying to be an asshole, but the whitespace and 'you don't belong here' doesn't speak 'almost dead' It's you're dead and we're sending you back. Unless the kids carted his unconscious ass into the pool of water? EDIT: Thanks, Ryu.


Irrelevant to the point. She had him there. She chose to have Zack there also.

Not as cool as Ryu's Venn diagram but
mutual.png
because apparently we all need picture-books to make our points. :\
 

Dashell

SMILE!
AKA
Sonique, Quexinos, Pinkie Pie, Derpy Hooves
I think it's in the Reunion Files, can you give me a bit to find it? I have to work early today and should be getting ready and not posting here :monster:

.. x.x So tired...

Cute pic BTW

The answer- especially since Anastar used the commercial again- would appear to be no.

"Doesn't say whose love it is"
That's the other problem with the commercial. I could say it's talking about Aerith's love only. Or I could bring up hatred and stuff... I want a specific quote from SE that says.... well yeah you know what I want. Or maybe you don't, idk :awesome:
 

Ryushikaze

Deus Admiral Parsimonious, PHD, DDS, MD, JD, OBE
AKA
Tim, Ryu
3. "And when Cloud and Tifa remain behind alone, in their final hours, they disclose that their feelings for each other match." - also talking about the HA scene. (yes these are optional, but I said optionals count)

Yeah, this one says 'when', not 'if' and is part of why we can say that though there's a choice in the game, there's no choice in the narrative.

WHEN they stay behind, they disclose matching feelings. No ifs, no conditional. What happens.
That we are told IF the affections are high, feelings are shared does not contradict this. It means that the feelings must have been high.
Why? Because the feelings have to have been shared. We've been told they were. We can't escape that.
 

Dashell

SMILE!
AKA
Sonique, Quexinos, Pinkie Pie, Derpy Hooves
I'm trying to make a point here Ryu :monster:

They keep saying "Well that's an optional scene."

My point
So what if it's optional or not? There doesn't seem to be any quotes for romantic feelings from Cloud to Aerith. At least no one has provided one yet.
 

Ryushikaze

Deus Admiral Parsimonious, PHD, DDS, MD, JD, OBE
AKA
Tim, Ryu
I'm trying to make a point here Ryu :monster:

So am I.

They keep saying "Well that's an optional scene."

My point
So what if it's optional or not? There doesn't seem to be any quotes for romantic feelings from Cloud to Aerith. At least no one has provided one yet.

My point: Even if the scene is optional, this sequence of events IS NOT. That means there's a 'correct' option.

ADDENDUM:
Just to demonstrate one of Anastar's quote mines- she cites P87 of the RF as a Pro Clerith comment, and often claims that the filming was done there BECAUSE the flowers there were like those in Aerith's church.

"6. In keeping with the notion that Cloud is in the live action world in the end, we filmed the video for the ending credits in Hawaii. There are fields of flowers on both sides of the road, and the colors - yellow and white - are the same as the flowers in Aerith's church. ~Nomura, Reunion Files, pg. 87"

She omitted half of the entry. The entry goes ON to say.

I wanted to have the sea lying beyond the horizon, and this was the best place. The actual filming took place a year before the release. When the release got pushed back, some of us wanted to go back and film it again. Big Surprise (Laughs). (Nomura)

Hawaii filming was because of the sea over the horizon, not because of flowers. The flowers are simply a happy consequence of the shoot.
 
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Celes Chere

Banned
AKA
Noctis
CR said:
Actually, I could say the same thing with the CloTi quotes.

She and Cloud came to realize their feelings for each other in the end of the story, and live together in AC and DC.

It's not optional, and if you believe this quote is up to interpretation please explain how?

Also I could easily prove Clack is canon using the logic from the opposing side in this thread. :awesome:
Though I'm happy enough with RikuSora being canon, so I won't mess with it. =w=

It's funny how you claim Cloti is a Realistic couple

They are. Couples fight. They make up. They learn from it. I see lots of claims that Cloud was NEVER happy with Tifa, and yet I post quotes about him smiling, wanting to start a life with her, and blushing. SOUNDS MIGHTY DISFUNCTIONAL.

, those quotes don't specify romance.

The very first quotes does.
 

Fairheartstrife

[no fucks given]
AKA
FHS, that cloti bitch
Just to go on record: I think it's fucking hilarious that ANY Clerith would comment on how ''unrealistic" Cloud and Tifa are. That's just... speshul.

She and Cloud came to realize their feelings for each other in the end of the story, and live together in AC and DC.


It's not optional, and if you believe this quote is up to interpretation please explain how?

Here, let me save them the trouble of answering **ahem** here goes:

Well, see, it doesn't specify WHAT feelings. And they live together like friends. Duh.
 

Celes Chere

Banned
AKA
Noctis
But they already knew they were friends. ;P And obviously they don't hate each other. I know you're being sarcastic, just getting that out there. :monster:
 

Fairheartstrife

[no fucks given]
AKA
FHS, that cloti bitch
Yeah, and they mutually agreed that friends was all they were gonna be. I mean, really, Tifa said that they weren't that close as kids, so they weren't really friends before. She only wanted him to be her hero like some spoiled princess. After she found him, they weren't friends either. He wanted to leave until she blackmailed him into staying. So yeah, the feelings they realized were those of friendship. Because it's not like they considered each other friends before that. Not really. So yeah, friendship. Sticking with it.

Besides, it's painfully obvious that Cloud was still hung up on Zack. He went so far as to create the illusion of the man within himself because his death was that traumatizing for him. He could not let it go. He literally HAD to have part of Zack with him.

ps. I told you guys I'd be bringing out the Clack truthiness. Run Clotis and Cleriths, you've met your bullshit interpretation match. :giggle:

Edit: this post is literally soaked and dripping in sarcasm, and because I don't want to be accused of legitimate asshattery I won't take it any farther than this unless it's in rebuttal to an equally outlandish argument. ^^
 

Rena

Cherry Garcia.
i think the story recap that tres has pointed out mentioned what was...

It was pointed by Tres, not SE themselves.

and lol cloti is not romantic because they don't sleep together? well we don't have any proof snow and serah slept together after two years, so we better say they're unrealistic as a couple too.
edit: and just to clarify, yes they have been living together for two years between ff13 and 13-2

Exactly!! That's just to put an example.

Except HE never says he wants to meet her. Tifa's the one who wants to meet Aerith again.
Because, y'know, they were friends. And there's no reason one would ever want to meet a dead friend again. So if Cloud can only want to meet Aerith for romantic reasons (even though he never expresses a want), I guess we've confirmed Aeti.

Are you serious?? Did you played FFVII all the way through the end?
Or are you gonna bring some twisted mistranslation that explains why Cloud didn’t really meant he wanted to meet her when he clearly states:

“I think I can meet her there”

No. It does not. The mutual confirmation of feelings is what happens in the narrative. That there is a variance no more changes the established narrative than the fact that it's optional to to take or NOT take Vincent to the Sister ray changes DoC.

Please provide me with a statement that clearly says it is not optional anymore.

[/QUOTE] And the text beneath it says 'Depending on how you act, one of four people will join Cloud on a date' (Very rough paraphrase), nothing about what happens on the dates. Meanwhile, the text referring to C/T mentions mutual confirmation of feelings without words.[/QUOTE]

It is still there, and why bother.

Tifa's Crisis Core profile says 'She and Cloud came to realize their feelings for each other in the end of the story, and live together in AC and DC.'

The U10 says they confirm their feelings- no mention of optionality.

The U20 says they confirm their feelings as the normal course of events.

The HA scene is listed as one of the four most important scenes in the game.

So yes, we can arrive easily at the conclusion that the scene where the feelings are confirmed- the high highwind, since nothing is shared in the low- is the version that occured in the narrative.

It's a bit irrelevant, though, since the FTOIL page doesn't mention versions.

Feelings of WHAT?

I’d bet the same undying feeling he’s got for Aerith.

Not sleeping together?
Are you assuming the consequent? Why yes you are!
As mentioned many times, the exact nature of their sleeping arrangements has not been established, but the 'do you love me/marlene' scene in CoT is most parsimonious- and depicts Tifa as less creepy and Clingy- if they share a room if not bed.

You’re just assuming they do sleep together.
But I guess Tifa just loves to take turns between Cloud and Marlene.

And Tifa not creepy and clingy?
Maybe not creepy but she’s always been clingy as hell.

When psychics and ghosts are a material fact of a universe, hearing voices and seeing ghosts is a sign of lousy neighbors, not mental illness.

That’s exactly what I’m trying to say! Cloud can get stabbed by a dead Sephiroth and get into fights with him, see him, talk to him and have every kind of personal contact Aerith or Tifa would envy and yet any kind of contact he has with Aerith up until now just doesn’t count ‘cause you keep claiming she’s dead. Well, breaking news: Sephiroth’s dead too.

Thanks for clearing it up.

It’s Final Fantasy, not Final Real-Cloti-love.

Bringing up psychotics and 'the tough time they have dealing with reality' is not the best tactic in a thread where reality is kind of allied against your position.

Read the above, thank you.
 

Rena

Cherry Garcia.
Just to go on record: I think it's fucking hilarious that ANY Clerith would comment on how ''unrealistic" Cloud and Tifa are. That's just... speshul.



Here, let me save them the trouble of answering **ahem** here goes:

Well, see, it doesn't specify WHAT feelings. And they live together like friends. Duh.

They live together...along with Barret. :awesome:
 

Tina Armstrong

Rockstar
AKA
Fackbito, RedGloves, Eileen Galvin, Saria, Lady Croft
And Tifa not creepy and clingy?
Maybe not creepy but she’s always been clingy as hell.
SE's whole fucking point was to NOT make her clingy. You're wrong.

They live together...along with Barret.
... Not.

"It had been several months since that day—the chosen day. After helping Tifa and Cloud build their home, Barret entrusted his best friend Dyne's orphaned daughter Marlene to the two of them and embarked on a journey." -Case of Barret

"Now running a delivery business while helping out Tifa with the newly opened “Seventh Heaven” bar, Cloud, Tifa, Marlene and Denzel lived together like a family." -Cloud's Profile, FFVII 10th Anniversary Ultimania

Feelings of WHAT?
Yeah, they realized their feelings of friendship for each other.
What the fuck do you think?
 
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Alessa Gillespie

a letter to my future self
AKA
Sansa Stark, Sweet Bro, Feferi, tentacleTherapist, Nin, Aki, Catwoman, Shinjiro Aragaki, Terezi, Princess Bubblegum
It was pointed by Tres, not SE themselves.
it was in the ultimania. so uh....isn't that se......?
They live together...along with Barret. :awesome:
yeah he totally doesn't make a point of leaving in what i feel was a fucking terrible characterization on se's part
 

Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
Rena, I don't know if you're trolling or just completely ignorant.

The recap Tres provided was written by Square-Enix themselves. That first line is a non-sequitur.

And seriously. Stop the special pleading. The fact that the FFVII 10th Anniversary Ultimania, Crisis Core Complete Guide, and FTOIL page in the 20th Anniversary Final Fantasy Ultimania specifically denotes that the high affection Highwind scene is the one that occurred within the context of the OBJECTIVE storyline in terms of continuity...

Means that *that* version of the game is the canon one. That playthrough is the one within narrative continuity. Just like Vincent and Yuffie are part of the canon storyline of FFVII continuity. Just like Shadow making off the Floating Continent is canon. Just like Tidus coming back to life in FFX-2 is canon.

Stop. The word games. Deliberate ignorance is not excusable.

And if Tifa feelings show she is in love with Cloud, and on a night with Cloud, they confirm their mutual feelings for each other, then what does that mean? That's basic common sense. It wouldn't be anything else BUT feelings of mutual love because that's what Tifa has, and their feelings are said to match.

No more word games here. This is the LTD thread not "A Seminar in Advanced Semantic Debating."

And Barret left, that's made extremely clear in Case of Tifa. Know the material you're debating.
 

Ryushikaze

Deus Admiral Parsimonious, PHD, DDS, MD, JD, OBE
AKA
Tim, Ryu
It was pointed by Tres, not SE themselves.

SE was the one who put the HA scene into the story summary.

Exactly!! That's just to put an example.

So, you are arguing that Snow and Serah are an unrealistic couple, then?

Are you serious?? Did you played FFVII all the way through the end?
Or are you gonna bring some twisted mistranslation that explains why Cloud didn’t really meant he wanted to meet her when he clearly states:

“I think I can meet her there”

Do YOU see the word want? Do you see a statement of intent? I see a statement of realization, that such a thing is possible, it CAN be done.
I see from Tifa the statement 'Let's go meet her,' which IS a statement of intent.
Further, I know from the UO that Cloud and Tifa were discussing meeting people, so he's not muttering this to himself, he's informing Tifa of the possibility.

Please provide me with a statement that clearly says it is not optional anymore.

I did. So did Quex. Here, let me repaste them.
"Tifa's Crisis Core profile says 'She and Cloud came to realize their feelings for each other in the end of the story, and live together in AC and DC.'"

"And when Cloud and Tifa remain behind alone, in their final hours, they disclose that their feelings for each other match."

That's what happens. QED.

It is still there, and why bother.

This attempt at flippancy does not address what it responds to, nor is it a good zinger at all.

Feelings of WHAT?

Romance. Desire. Love.

I’d bet the same undying feeling he’s got for Aerith.

Even if this were the case, your side is arguing that those undying feelings are love. This would be a validation for the C/T conclusion.
For the record, though, the undying feelings are almost certainly guilt, and not the same as those expressed under the highwind.

You’re just assuming they do sleep together.
But I guess Tifa just loves to take turns between Cloud and Marlene.

Marlene slept with Tifa while they built the house and for a week after. She has her own bed in a room she shares with Denzel. She and Tifa don't sleep together regularly, nor would her sleeping with Tifa preclude Cloud also sleeping with Tifa any more than my baby brother wanting to sleep with my mom for security when he was a small child meant my dad slept elsewhere.

And Tifa not creepy and clingy?
Maybe not creepy but she’s always been clingy as hell.

It always comes out.
And no, the creators would not willingly portray her as such. They do not want her to appear a clingy woman.
In addition, I thank you to agree she's not creepy, and thus would not have snuck into Cloud's room after he slept to ask him a question. Thus, parsimoniously, the scene depicts two people sharing a room and also possibly bed.

That’s exactly what I’m trying to say! Cloud can get stabbed by a dead Sephiroth and get into fights with him, see him, talk to him and have every kind of personal contact Aerith or Tifa would envy and yet any kind of contact he has with Aerith up until now just doesn’t count ‘cause you keep claiming she’s dead. Well, breaking news: Sephiroth’s dead too.

What contact? Aerith can't have any contact with Cloud. She's recognized she couldn't because he was in the world of the living and she was in the lifestream. Likewise Sephiroth could not interact with Cloud until HE managed to cheat the system and create a living form to inhabit.
Aerith, meanwhile, is literally said to return to the lifestream around the planet at the end of ACC, where she belongs. So when would she be contacting Cloudybutt outside the very special circumstances of AC/C, given that she immediately and willingly returns to the place where she is prevented from being able to normally communicate with the living?

Thanks for clearing it up.

What it clears up, kiddo, is that you're latching onto anything you think can help you, with no consistency at all.

It’s Final Fantasy, not Final Real-Cloti-love.


No Final Fantasy to date has had a relationship where one of the partners was dead at the time of the relationship. A few have even gone out of their way to specifically state such things as impossible, stupid, etc.

Read the above, thank you.

Even a fantasy story has a 'reality' to which the story adheres. Your position is aligned against that fictional reality.

They live together...along with Barret. :awesome:

Case in point. Barret does not live with them. He rather explicitly does not live with them.
 

Fairheartstrife

[no fucks given]
AKA
FHS, that cloti bitch
Are all Clerith fans avid Tifa haters? Weird. Must be her big boobs and the fact that she gets Cloud's Buster Sword :awesome:

Rena, if I could, for one moment, take your argument seriously, I'd reply with something more in depth. Must since I can't, let me just say: I'm terribly sorry for your fictional character's loss, and I hope that you can move beyond this someday and let go of the pain.

Ryu or Tres or even Q--on the 'I think I can meet her there' quote. Am I mistaken or wasn't that another case of a non-specific/non-possessive translation that got the 'This guy are sick' treatment? I can't recall, tbh.
 

Vendel

Banned
yeah he totally doesn't make a point of leaving in what i feel was a fucking terrible characterization on se's part

Well keeping with Cloud being the main character. I guess Nojima felt it was more important to the story for Cloud and Tifa to build their own little world together with Marlene than to have Barret hanging around. Now you can agree or disagree with this decision. But it is significant nonetheless.

It's not like it's totally out of character for Barret either. A man who will run an eco-terrorist group can be forgiven for taking drastic actions.

So there we have it. Barret needs to make the world a better place so he can live on. Cloud needs Tifa.
 

Alessa Gillespie

a letter to my future self
AKA
Sansa Stark, Sweet Bro, Feferi, tentacleTherapist, Nin, Aki, Catwoman, Shinjiro Aragaki, Terezi, Princess Bubblegum
It's not like it's totally out of character for Barret either. A man who will run an eco-terrorist group can be forgiven for taking drastic actions.
but he always, always, ALWAYS does everything for marlene. the only time he was like 'okay maybe i should leave marlene with someone else for a bit' was when the party was in serious danger and someone died. other than that, even when he was an eco-terrorist, he always kept marlene by his side.

i mean yes, i can understand why they wanted to bring together cloud and tifa as a cohesive family unit, but i still question their idea with barret's characterization towards it. bluh
 

Fairheartstrife

[no fucks given]
AKA
FHS, that cloti bitch
I think Barret felt finding a new energy source and helping the Planet recover was his way of atoning. He had a massive amount of guilt in relation to Avalanche, sector seven etc. I think him leaving Marlene with the only family she knows shows that he's considerate of her--her future and her stability. He was doing the only thing a man like him knows how to do. Barret doesn't do 'stagnant' very well, so I don't think SE bastardized him. If he showed up and never acknowledged Marlene, maybe, but his phone call to Cloud says that she's on his mind, and his first words to Tifa are about Marlene... so yeah...

back to the LSD...
 

Alessa Gillespie

a letter to my future self
AKA
Sansa Stark, Sweet Bro, Feferi, tentacleTherapist, Nin, Aki, Catwoman, Shinjiro Aragaki, Terezi, Princess Bubblegum
I think Barret felt finding a new energy source and helping the Planet recover was his way of atoning. He had a massive amount of guilt in relation to Avalanche, sector seven etc. I think him leaving Marlene with the only family she knows shows that he's considerate of her--her future and her stability. He was doing the only thing a man like him knows how to do. Barret doesn't do 'stagnant' very well, so I don't think SE bastardized him. If he showed up and never acknowledged Marlene, maybe, but his phone call to Cloud says that she's on his mind, and his first words to Tifa are about Marlene... so yeah...
like i said, i understand why they did it. i just can't understand the fact that he didn't seem to see her very much for a long while. he's a dude who both loves and i think depends a bit on his daughter to be there, so while i can understand him leaving her with tifa and cloud, i think it would have been more ic if we saw more evidence of him calling her frequently or something idk

back to the LSD...
sums up my feelings on the entire thread.......
 

Celes Chere

Banned
AKA
Noctis
Feelings of WHAT?

I’d bet the same undying feeling he’s got for Aerith.

IDK how many times I have to repeat this but:

- Cloud and Tifa know they are friends.
- Cloud and Tifa don't hate each other.
- Cloud and Tifa came to realize their feelings for one another.

Love is the only feeling left. If NOT please give your point of view pretty please. ;w;

His undying feeling for Aerith... means she's never going to be forgotten or leave the place in his heart. If a dear, dear friend dies, that's what happens. ;/ And Cloud was closer to her than anyone else in the party. Doesn't mean they were in love.

It’s Final Fantasy, not Final Real-Cloti-love.


Lol kaaay no one said it was. There are realistic features in a fantasy game... just so you know.

along with Barret.

Who is never around and entrusted Marlene to Tifa and Cloud. :awesome:

SE's whole fucking point was to NOT make her clingy.

Exactly. Read the Reunion Files. SE states everything every Tifa fan has said in her defense. The point was to not spoon feed Cloud, but to lead him on the right path so he can make his own conclusions.

It was pointed by Tres

TRES'S WORD IS THE LAAAW!

Also, if Cloud loves Aerith, where is it stated they realize THEIR mutual feelings for one another? Let me just check - owait
 

Ryushikaze

Deus Admiral Parsimonious, PHD, DDS, MD, JD, OBE
AKA
Tim, Ryu
Are all Clerith fans avid Tifa haters? Weird. Must be her big boobs and the fact that she gets Cloud's Buster Sword :awesome:

Rena, if I could, for one moment, take your argument seriously, I'd reply with something more in depth. Must since I can't, let me just say: I'm terribly sorry for your fictional character's loss, and I hope that you can move beyond this someday and let go of the pain.

Ryu or Tres or even Q--on the 'I think I can meet her there' quote. Am I mistaken or wasn't that another case of a non-specific/non-possessive translation that got the 'This guy are sick' treatment? I can't recall, tbh.

Literally, it's 'think can meet' 'let's go meet' but that they're talking about Aerith is pretty obvious from context and the UO. But like I said, the UO is pretty explicit that they're TALKING, he's not just mumbling to himself with Tifa responding. So 'we' is probably more likely the intent.

but he always, always, ALWAYS does everything for marlene. the only time he was like 'okay maybe i should leave marlene with someone else for a bit' was when the party was in serious danger and someone died. other than that, even when he was an eco-terrorist, he always kept marlene by his side.

i mean yes, i can understand why they wanted to bring together cloud and tifa as a cohesive family unit, but i still question their idea with barret's characterization towards it. bluh

I get the feeling, myself, that the only reason he kept Marlene by his side was because he felt she'd be safer there, but that after the incident, she'd be safe enough- and be better off- with Cloud and Tifa. He's doing it for Marlene's sake, he's just come to the idea that he's not what's best for her as he is, not without being able to create something, to make the world better. I do suspect he's going to come back and be a proper father at some point- in my personal timeline, this occurs slowly after ACC over the course of a year or two (IE-, He'd be about half done with settling things and settling in as of DoC) as he makes more trips to visit, gets a home setup, and eventually moves in with Marlene, while maybe still leaving her with C/T when he needs to go off on Business with Cid and such. Or maybe he takes her with when it's safe enough.

Also, while we do gloss over a lot of time, we get the note in CoT that Barret called, and the implication seemed to be this was a regular thing, in AC/C he wanted to know about her safety pretty much immediately, and in Reminiscence, he was sending a gift home with Cloud.
 

Fairheartstrife

[no fucks given]
AKA
FHS, that cloti bitch
Literally, it's 'think can meet' 'let's go meet' but that they're talking about Aerith is pretty obvious from context and the UO. But like I said, the UO is pretty explicit that they're TALKING, he's not just mumbling to himself with Tifa responding. So 'we' is probably more likely the intent.

Oh, I knew it was Aerith they were referring to, but it was the possessive 'I' that was throwing me, because I seem to recall the translation being without a personal commitment... as in a general 'we' not singularly him nor he and Tifa, but as an all encompassing 'we', but it very well could be 'let's and 'we' as in he and Tifa. I am not bugging my friend for translation again, she's already mocking me. 'Full grown adult debating with kiddies' etc. :awesome: she's lucky I adore her... :P
 
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