The Love Triangle Debate thread of KNEEL BEFORE ZOD OR SUFFER HIS WRATH (ignore the opening posts at your peril) (Round 6)

[Marle]

You understand that you completely sully the significance and beautiful meaning behind Aerith's death by insisting she can communicate whenever she wants and pursue a relationship with Cloud post mortem and post AC/C right?

 

[Fairheartstrife]

You understand that you completely sully the significance and beautiful meaning behind Aerith's death by insisting she can communicate and pursue a relationship with Cloud post mortem right?

Who the fuck cares, as long as she WINS!

 

[Wolfmania]

@Rena:

Sephiroth was dead. He regenerated a new body so he could 1-on-1 Cloud cause he was mad at him cause Cloud bested him twice already.

Aerith is dead for real. There's a difference. And I don't see anyone discrediting Aerith's contacts with Cloud. They just had nothing to do with romance.

But everything to do with guilt. That's the feeling that defines Cloud's character in AC/C - guilt.

 

[Marle]

On the Tifa being clingy thing. I've just about had enough of this argument. Because it isn't true and just a way to 'bash' Tifa. And don't say it isn't because it is.

If you're gonna claim she's clingy, prove it. Where is Tifa 'clingy'?

Is she clingy when she gives Cloud his space in AC/C when he starts acting all guilt ridden?

Is she clingy when she sticks around and waits patiently for him to get over his hump?

Is she clingy when she leaves him short messages about his deliveries rather than leaving him a lengthy, bitchy phone message about the fact that he's acting like a douche?

Is she clingy when she finally calls him out on it after keeping it inside of her, bottled up for so long?

And that's only AC/C.

In FF7, was she clingy when she let him leave to pursue his dreams?

Was she clingy when she noticed he was detaching himself from her?

Was she clingy when she saw him building a world with Aerith?

Was she clingy when she stayed behind and abandoned everything in order to stay by his side while he remained a vegetable, most likely never to recover?

If you dislike Tifa, fine, dislike her. But don't invent excuses about aspects of her character that are untrue just to justify it.

I'm done.

 

[Dashell]

If you dislike Tifa, fine, dislike her. But don't invent excuses about aspects of her character that are untrue just to justify it.

WORD.

And don't invent excuses about not liking her cause you're pissed that the debate isn't going your way. Seriously either debate the love triangle or GTFO. Don't sit there and have temper tantrums cause the debate or game didn't go your way. That's just childish.

 

[Celes Chere]

Yeah it's like saying "Aerith is a slut because she loved two people"'

I also love how Tifa's the slut when her whole life she has loved Cloud, lol. And Cloud only.

 

[Rena]

Literally, it's 'think can meet' 'let's go meet' but that they're talking about Aerith is pretty obvious from context and the UO. But like I said, the UO is pretty explicit that they're TALKING, he's not just mumbling to himself with Tifa responding. So 'we' is probably more likely the intent.

So because it was a conversation between the two it automatically means cloud meant “WE” even when he blantly says “I”…wow.

And don't invent excuses about not liking her cause you're pissed that the debate isn't going your way. Seriously either debate the love triangle or GTFO. Don't sit there and have temper tantrums cause the debate or game didn't go your way. That's just childish.

I’m not pissed the debate isn’t going my way; I came here by free will knowing 80% of the people here are Cloti and it would be pathetic to expect the discussion to favor me now.

I do not like Tifa and I’m not give any excuse, she’s just not my type and I don’t see what’s so wrong about that. I guess it is ok with you to bash real people with sarcastic comments questioning their intelligence but it is not ok to hate on a fictional character.

I came here because even though I may believe even most of the arguments people give, on the other hand, some of them are seriously stupid.

And just read the 100+ pages of this debate…it’s not me the one throwing tantrums. I may be now, yes ‘cause most of you seem to take things quiet personal when you don’t like what you read and you DO get personal, bless my heart it does cause a reaction, however it’s funny how it is always the other side the ones been childish and never the other way round.

Anyway, I do not want to get personal with you ‘cause despite the fact that I’ve never had a conversation with you or anything, I’ve seen your posts and I respect you and have always had a liking for some of the things you say.

Thank you.

 

[Random Nobody]

I came here because even though I may believe even most of the arguments people give, on the other hand, some of them are seriously stupid.

Now I'm not trying to troll here, but I hope you've read your arguments, then. I don't usually do pairing debates, so I can scarcely believe my eyeballs.

 

[Marle]

I’m not pissed the debate isn’t going my way; I came here by free will knowing 80% of the people here are Cloti and it would be pathetic to expect the discussion to favor me now.

80%? Hoping you don't mean the 80% of this forum, 'cause 80% of the forum don't even come into this thread. :T

I do not like Tifa and I’m not give any excuse, she’s just not my type and I don’t see what’s so wrong about that. I guess it is ok with you to bash real people with sarcastic comments questioning their intelligence but it is not ok to hate on a fictional character.

Didn't say you can't dislike her. Actually, I said you can. What I said was not cool, was justifying your dislike for her by creating aspects of her character that aren't true; example: being clingy.

I dislike Snow. I have no valid reason and there is really nothing wrong with his character; he's just not a character I particularly like. And there isn't anything wrong with that. Now, if I go around saying how 'clingy' or 'whiny' Snow is, there would be something wrong with that because he simply isn't.

Oh and wait a second, hold up. Bashing real people? When have I bashed real people? If I recall correctly, not even a few pages ago, someone who was arguing for clerith brought up how they were venting about the people here at a different forum in which the people here cannot even defend themselves. At least here, everything is in the open so if someone is crossing a line, you can call them out and report them and I'd expect that you would do just that.

I came here because even though I may believe even most of the arguments people give, on the other hand, some of them are seriously stupid.

Which arguments are stupid? I believe many people who brought up stupid arguments were called out by other forum goers. For example, I find the argument that paints Aerith and Tifa as moms to Cloud extremely stupid and will argue against it all the time. But seriously, do tell which ones are stupid, I'd like to know.

And just read the 100+ pages of this debate…it’s not me the one throwing tantrums. I may be now, yes ‘cause most of you seem to take things quiet personal when you don’t like what you read and you DO get personal, bless my heart it does cause a reaction, however it’s funny how it is always the other side the ones been childish and never the other way round.

Hun, this is the LTD. Shit can get personal. It may not be intended to end up like that, but it happens. For example, you just got personal by saying how people on 'the other side', assuming you're referring to the 'cloti' side, are always the ones who act childish while 'your side' does not. So uhm, since I'm a cloti fan and shipper, I will take it personally. Not to mention, that is highly untrue.

The squares are even; we have childish and annoying fans everywhere in the FF7 fandom and the LTD isn't an exception.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

So because it was a conversation between the two it automatically means cloud meant “WE” even when he blantly says “I”…wow.

I don't think you actually read what you responded to there. In the Japanese sentence there, Cloud does not say "I" or "we" -- he literally says "think can meet," to which Tifa responds "Let's go meet."

There was no "I" or "we" pronoun in Cloud's line, leaving the game's translator to assign one. They could also have as easily and accurately translated the line as "I think it's possible to meet."

The reason "we" is a better fit than "I" is because the Ultimania Omega identified the little exchange there as a conversation between the two, and because Tifa says "Let's go meet."

In any case, however one chooses to translate it, there is no "I" in the original line, so the best anyone can do is speculate on it from the context.

 

[Vivi]

Are all Clerith fans avid Tifa haters?

I'm sorry if I'm off topic, but I feel like a have to save Cleriths like myself here. Tifa's one of my favorite characters, and I do get pissed off when she's bashed. Clerith, to me, is that Cloud had romantic feelings for Aeris and that a relationship could have been possible if she had lived. This isn't to say that I don't think that Cloud loves Tifa. I always thought that was made pretty clear in the Lifestream sequence. But it's always possible to love two people at once. I think this situation is similar to how Aeris loved both Zack and Cloud. Aeris moved on from Zack after he died, and Cloud had to do the same with Aeris.

I do realize that this is entirely my head canon, but I just wanted to pop in and say that Clerith usually isn't spirit sex and Tifa hating.

 

[Splintered]

I do not like Tifa and I’m not give any excuse, she’s just not my type and I don’t see what’s so wrong about that. I guess it is ok with you to bash real people with sarcastic comments questioning their intelligence but it is not ok to hate on a fictional character.

No one's stopping you from hating a character.

But here's the reality of what you did and the problem with 99% of the LTD: the passive aggressive swipes at the other character as if it would someone illegitimate relationship between two characters. It's the lowest common denominator in any shipping debate and quite frankly, it's just plain annoying.

Especially since you said she was "clingy" when she wasn't, and no, this isn't about "your interpretation." Tifa spent most of her time emotionally propping up Cloud and keeping her family together. In CoT she clearly gave him emotional space to work things out, and when things weren't working things she out she tried to help.

She was willing to stay with him until the proverbial end of days, wiping the drool off his face, because she was trying to help him. The difference is that she's not going to hold his hand while he continues to have self destructive habits. That's not being clingy, that's her refusing to enable his bullshit. Hell, even Aerith came back from the lifestream to kick his ass into shape. Tifa said he was a better man than this, and he was. Cloud wasn't happy, not because he didn't want to be in a relationship but because he slipped back into survivor's guilt and confusion, and now he's better with her, and everyone else's help.

however it’s funny how it is always the other side the ones been childish and never the other way round.

lol, fandom victimization. C/A and C/T fans need to understand that no one buys that the other side is persecuting them. Everyone outside of the LTD knows that they are both assholes.

The LTD is the toilet of the FFVII fandom, it just so happens I like a good shitfest.

Lets argue the stupid points, not the fandom pointing.

 

[Ryushikaze]

So, Rena, can I assume you're simply ignoring all the points raised here, then?
Because you kind of have.

So because it was a conversation between the two it automatically means cloud meant “WE” even when he blantly says “I”…wow.

Cloud says 'I' only in the translation. It's not in the original line.
Off course, translations can be wrong. That's how you'll fool them, because this guy are sick, Cloud had a lot of nerve for Doing Elena's boss in, and Holy is having the opposite effect.
Put another way, the English translations were far from perfect, and context both in and out of the original game suggests he's not speaking purely for himself.

I’m not pissed the debate isn’t going my way; I came here by free will knowing 80% of the people here are Cloti and it would be pathetic to expect the discussion to favor me now.

Well, your strawman arguments are pretty pathetic already.

I do not like Tifa and I’m not give any excuse, she’s just not my type and I don’t see what’s so wrong about that.

It's the 'making shit up to validate the dislike' that's wrong. That's what you've been doing.

I guess it is ok with you to bash real people with sarcastic comments questioning their intelligence but it is not ok to hate on a fictional character.

Oh, no, we're fine with hate. We just tend to prefer hating on people and characters for what they've done.

I came here because even though I may believe even most of the arguments people give, on the other hand, some of them are seriously stupid.

Examples and explanations, please.

And just read the 100+ pages of this debate…it’s not me the one throwing tantrums. I may be now, yes ‘cause most of you seem to take things quiet personal when you don’t like what you read and you DO get personal, bless my heart

One tends to get offended when ones arguments are ignored, twisted, quote mined, and generally treated with unabashed dishonesty.

 

[aerbear]

*defensively jumps in front of Rena with a gravity hammer* BACK OFF BITCHUZ!!

Well, I am gonna argue that he DOES sleep in that room, bedroom or office or whatever it is, due to the presence of said cot.

We've had no reason to think otherwise. I'd argue that too. But I do hope the guy gets a nice bed after Advent Children

Nomura: "AC is a film made by 'Japanese people'. In Hollywood, I think there's this trend that the meaning of every scene has to be clearly shown, but this film isn't necessarily like that. The viewer is free to decide how they interpret or enjoy what we've made. The staff have their own answers to everything included throughout the film, such as the angel statue. But even if someone who watches it interprets it differently, then that's still another possible answer. I guess 'comparing answers' could be one of the ways to enjoy the film. I think AC is the kind of film that people will want to talk about when they've watched it." ~Nomura, Director's Commentary on Japanese edition of AC

So, if we interpret that Cloud is missing Aerith in Advent Children for whatever reason (love, friendship, whatever), I think this is him saying we aren't unjust. Like if you guys think that the ending is on a good note for Cloud and Tifa to be in a relationship, not unjust.

So, he's saying it's about interpretation. One of the times he talked specifically about the relationships in the story, he said he has no idea, you can imagine as you like, and enjoy talking about it with friends.

"What's not already shown in the games/films -- I think it's better for the fans to enjoy it by imagining it as you like..."

Cloud and Tifa are never definitively shown as, or said to be, a romantic couple in the games or films. He's never retracted these statements, never said they weren't true. He wants us to enjoy Final Fantasy VII in our own way. If we enjoy it seeing Cloud and Aerith where you see Cloud and Tifa, we have that right. He's never said we don't. He's said we do. Therefore, it's still open. Boom shakalaka.

Yeah it's like saying "Aerith is a slut because she loved two people"'

People say this quite a bit, unfortunately.

If I recall correctly, not even a few pages ago, someone who was arguing for clerith brought up how they were venting about the people here at a different forum in which the people here cannot even defend themselves.

I never meant that we've been talking badly about anybody, not at all. I myself think of some of you as friends . But I do tend to say the wrong things or what I don't mean. Word vomit.

 

[Celes Chere]

I came here by free will knowing 80% of the people here are Cloti

In the LTD thread maybe but in the entire Forum? :/ And you know, what's so WRONG with being Cloti? Would you really be put off of a place just because of the shippers lolol. This isn't necessarily aimed at you but at others who seem to think Cloti shippers are some sort of evil. I like that people just assume shit about TLS without posting in other sections of the Forum. (eye rolling)

it is ok with you to bash real people with sarcastic comments questioning their intelligence but it is not ok to hate on a fictional character.

FFS, if you saw bashing why didn't you report it? Why is this so hard for people to understand?

some of them are seriously stupid.

Didn't you just say you hated when people bashed one another?

’s funny how it is always the other side the ones been childish and never the other way round.

BS. A lot of us have defended Clerith fans.

Also no Clerith fan has told me what "mutual feelings" between Cloud and Aerith means to them. That's okay, I'll wait for the eternity I've already been waiting.

 

[Ryushikaze]

I'm sorry if I'm off topic, but I feel like a have to save Cleriths like myself here. Tifa's one of my favorite characters, and I do get pissed off when she's bashed. Clerith, to me, is that Cloud had romantic feelings for Aeris and that a relationship could have been possible if she had lived. This isn't to say that I don't think that Cloud loves Tifa. I always thought that was made pretty clear in the Lifestream sequence. But it's always possible to love two people at once. I think this situation is similar to how Aeris loved both Zack and Cloud. Aeris moved on from Zack after he died, and Cloud had to do the same with Aeris.

I do realize that this is entirely my head canon, but I just wanted to pop in and say that Clerith usually isn't spirit sex and Tifa hating.

I'm rather certain FHS was referring to the evidence that the subset of 'spirit sex' Cleriths seem to all be Tifa haters too.
I much prefer the term 'Pinker' for them, myself.

lol, fandom victimization. C/A and C/T fans need to understand that no one buys that the other side is persecuting them. Everyone outside of the LTD knows that they are both assholes.

Hell, a lot of us know we're assholes. I just tend to think of myself as the honest asshole.

The LTD is the toilet of the FFVII fandom, it just so happens I like a good shitfest.

Pairing debates are the toilet of most all fandoms.
Except the Sci-Fi vs debate fandoms. The toilet there is a bit different, but contains similar shittiness towards series and factions.

 

[Fairheartstrife]

People say this quite a bit, unfortunately.

I've been debating this LTD nonsense for a loooooooooooooong time, and I rarely see this argument unless it's to counter a 'Tifa's a slut' argument. Hell, i can't recall the last time I saw it, actually, so if it's 'quite a bit' do feel free to point it out.

I never meant that we've been talking badly about anybody, not at all. I myself think of some of you as friends . But I do tend to say the wrong things or what I don't mean. Word vomit.

You do realize your little Clerith forum isn't invisible right? Just really, really think about that and how easy 'prtsc' is before you go and claim innocence. M'kay. We can't drag it in here, but if you want to offer yourself up for rebuttal...


Also, Vivi--I don't literally think ALL Clerith shippers hate Tifa, but yeah, there's a very vocal subset that does. For a very long time I loathed Aerith as a character because of her Materia Jesus fanbase. They are bitter and they tend to sour the character with it. Makes me kind of sad, because as Raven Roth pointed out, Aerith's death was meant to be huge and impactful. Not LOL we can bring her back whenever, hardy-har. Flower fields and rainbow farts wheeeee....

Edit: I fucking love you for this, Vivi

I do realize that this is entirely my head canon

You have no idea how much. You, my friend, are fantabulous. If only every shipper was like you... **wistful sigh**

ps. Fack is the true OTP

 

[aerbear]

BS. A lot of us have defended Clerith fans.

This is true.

You do realize your little Clerith forum isn't invisible right? Just really, really think about that and how easy 'prtsc' is before you go and claim innocence. M'kay. We can't drag it in here, but if you want to offer yourself up for rebuttal...

Yeah. I do realize 'my little forum' isn't invisible. And I don't shit talk my friends, period, so there's nothing I'm ashamed of.

I've been debating this LTD nonsense for a loooooooooooooong time, and I rarely see this argument unless it's to counter a 'Tifa's a slut' argument. Hell, i can't recall the last time I saw it, actually, so if it's 'quite a bit' do feel free to point it out.

Not on here, but I meant that I see it around a lot.

 

[Ryushikaze]

This is true.


Yeah. I do realize 'my little forum' isn't invisible. And I don't shit talk my friends, period, so there's nothing I'm ashamed of.

She's not referring to you shit talking friends. She's talking about complaining that people badmouth Aerith and shit talk people here, but while elsewhere, engage in similar ways as what you complain of others doing.

Not on here, but I meant that I see it around a lot.

Well, even if you see it around elsewhere, those people are not the people here and cannot be held responsible for what random internet assholes have said.
The assholes here can only be held responsible for their own words.
And that applies to assholes on both sides.

 

[Fairheartstrife]

Yeah. I do realize 'my little forum' isn't invisible. And I don't shit talk my friends, period, so there's nothing I'm ashamed of.

So, it's changed from

I never meant that we've been talking badly about anybody, not at all.

to you don't shit talk your friends... huh... is there anything you guys are consistent on?

Not on here, but I meant that I see it around a lot.

Then why bring it up here?



Edit: Fucking ninja'd by Ryu.

 

[Splintered]

I just might have to punch myself in the face if we are going to talk about Clerith forums again. I'm sure aerbear is a lovely person who doesn't trash talk people so lets get on with it. So many fucks not given for the forum where someone said something about another person.

Also I do think Aerith's character gets injustice because of LTD as well. She either gets slammed with the "pure, innocent" routine, or people make her out to be selfish and goes out of her way to make Tifa feel bad. Which I don't feel like at all, I think there's a part of her that may seem selfish, but that's mostly because she's a person that lives in the moment and wants to experience everything and holds nothing back, that she did like Tifa but wasn't quite aware of her the consequence of some her actions.

EDIT: Oh, and most of all, the "damsel in distress" argument needs to die. Since she saved an entire planet that was in distress. Twice.

 

[Random Nobody]

When was Aerith in distress? I haven't played through the game in a while, but the only time I remember (outside of the Church scene where you can make her fight) was when she was captured by the Turks...with whom she willingly went in order to spare Marlene.

 

[Fairheartstrife]

I don't think anyone actually WANTS to talk about the other forums, but sorry, there's only so much bald-faced lie that should be tolerated. Do I think we need to discuss their forum or the shit they spew on it? No. But if someone wants to claim it doesn't happen when we all know it damn well does, yeah, I'm calling them on it.

I think Aerith is a social retard with selfish tendencies. It's actually one of her awesome quirks. I don't think she realizes a lot of it, no, but I do think she is fully aware of Tifa's feelings and that doesn't stop her. I think (head canon here) that she needs to not lose Cloud. That she's almost desperate to be with him because of Zack. I don't think (again this is head canon people, chill) that she ever got over Zack's disappearance and she knows he's dead--refuses to admit it--and as such forms an unhealthy attachment to the person that reminds her of him. Aerith, one of the many onions of FFVII.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Yeah, let's try to scale back the discussion of other forums and such. Let's keep the focus as much as possible on what's going on right here.

We grow enough douchery domestically; no need to start importing.

 

[Alessa Gillespie]

I don't think anyone actually WANTS to talk about the other forums, but sorry, there's only so much bald-faced lie that should be tolerated. Do I think we need to discuss their forum or the shit they spew on it? No. But if someone wants to claim it doesn't happen when we all know it damn well does, yeah, I'm calling them on it.

i think it might be against forum rules to talk about other forums?

i mean assuming that mods read this thread it's already been brought to their attention, but maybe we shouldn't discuss forums that ain't this one