To be fair, what she thinks (also written in her essay) are things that have been, or are being, addressed in this thread. I'm sure she wasn't trying to be rude.
Not all. And several of those points did go unaddressed in responses to other people. Tres's first rage at his big bold underlined yelly post comes to mine.
She does have a job and her own life constraining her, like how I'm constrained by my Xbox and sleeping Ahem, moving on..
Anastar is under no time constraint to respond here. That means exactly what it says. She may take as long as she requires to respond, but we would appreciate the courtesy of complete, honest responses.
Many of the posters in this thread are constrained by job and life.
That one post sums it up, but I don't have the time tonight. I'll get back to this later. Maybe I should print the rude stuff out and pretty it up, add some pictures, make a scrapbook of our times together.
After you do that, we can go over all the times folks have been rude in their responses to me and my friends.
We've have no reason to think that they talked at all in those months after they first spoke. The only interaction between them ever mentioned or seen has been the night they made that promise.
Congratulations. You've AGAIN, made the case against Clerith. "We've have no reason to think" (omit either the 've or the have in that sentence, BTW, to make it grammatically correct) cuts against many of the arguments that have been presented, which operate on assumptions of what could happen, but which we have no reason to assume are true.
In this case, though, I would argue we DO have a reason to think they'd talk again. Tifa was interested. Cloud was interested. Even if they were oblivious to each other- and they were, don't get me wrong- they'd want to be near each other and spend time around their crushes.
But he actually knew Aerith. During his childhood, and during most of the time between the first time he talked to Tifa and the start of FFVII, he didn't know her very well. Aerith and Tifa were more or less on equal footing with Cloud by the time Aerith and Tifa met.
Even if we discount any meaning of their childhood, Cloud has spent at least an extra week with Tifa as he recovered at the 7th heaven. More likely a month or two. As far as Cloud knowing both women, that's weight in Tifa's camp again.
Cloud knew Tifa at least as well as he knew Aerith. That's my point. If he didn't know Tifa well enough to love her despite years of knowledge about her, how well could get get to know Aerith in two really distracting weeks?
"In this story, Cloud also carries his own undying feeling for Aerith even to this very day." -Nomura
"Aerith Gainsborough - A girl with the blood of the Ancients running through her veins, who Cloud would never forget." -DoC game manual
That's a lotta feeling for a girl he only knew for two weeks, so she was still something special. The length of their relationship doesn't really mean much.
That's also a lot of feeling for a girl Tifa knew two weeks. And Tifa has her own feelings towards Aerith, and unless we're being really asinine, also won't forget her. No one in the party will never forget her.
Assuming there isn't a timeline for Final Fantasy X, I counted 11 in-game days. But Yuna still loved Tidus, didn't she.
You realize you're still arguing against your INITIAL argument, right? By pointing out that the time you get to spend with someone doesn't matter, you're arguing against the initial point of Cloud not knowing Tifa well enough to love her.
Because at the time, he didn't remember having feelings for Tifa as a kid. The memories were there, but buried.
The feelings were still there too. That's my point. Not merely memories of those feelings, but those feelings. We're told the feelings are still held by whole Cloud.
Might not, but he does?
I might not have a large second toe, but I do?
'Might not' is a probability statement. I might or might not have three juggling badgers riding chainsaws.
As it turns out, I don't. I only have two.
You probably don't have a second big toe (I presume on a single foot), but if you do, you do.
There are a lot of quotes about Cloud and Aerith saying more or less the same things. I meant that he isn't driven by the same things he was before. He has more that drives him now, including Tifa. I agree that she helps him a lot, because he cares for her very much.
But having more that drives him doesn't take away that Tifa is still a driving factor in his life.
She's the one who convinces him to try and save the kids even at his lowest confidence point.
And instead of saying there are 'a lot' of quotes saying 'more or less the same things' show me the quotes.
So you agree he knows and there's a definite answer?
"The viewer is free to decide how they interpret or enjoy what we've made. The staff have their own answers to everything included throughout the film, such as the angel statue. But even if someone who watches it interprets it differently, then that's still another possible answer. I guess 'comparing answers' could be one of the ways to enjoy the film."
He's also saying that their own interpretations - the people who made the movie - are just possible answers, some out of many. He's giving us a lot of creative freedom. This is why we're here, to preserve this freedom he's given us to make of it what we will. He wants us to enjoy what's been given to us without writing off anything as definite. He didn't even write Cloud and Tifa's possible romantic relationship off as definite or canon, but with what he said, just one possible answer.
Actually, he didn't. He said the staff have their own answers. That is definite. He said that viewers have interpretations that are possible answers. The interpretations of the viewer CAN be correct, but the answers of the creators ARE correct.
And even then, I repeat, this doesn't mean 'all interpretations are valid' or 'there is no answer' It means an interpretation CAN be an answer. Doesn't mean it is.
Didn't think I'd hear that on here.
We don't mind different interpretations. We just expect them to be sufficiently supported by the weight of the facts.
I've found different answers than you. I'm not saying they're right or wrong, and neither is he. My answers are as valid as yours. In his words, they're possible answers.
Your answers and my answers are not valid on their own. They are possible answers. But without evidence, without reason, those answers, those interpretations are not even PROBABLE answers.
EDIT: Re-reading what you wrote, I forgot something.
I'm not saying Cloud and Vincent are going to be together, or something. That's an interpretation, but not a valid one, because I wasn't given reasonable cause. We have a scenario where Cloud's romantic feelings are never blatantly specified, but are hinted at. We have two girls who we know feel romantically about him. Aerith died, but the LT didn't, because it hasn't been said anywhere that Cloud's feelings can die for her and then focus on Tifa alone. That defeats the purpose of the love triangle anyway. They invented it around the time when they decided Aerith would be killed, not to make one couple canon, but to give us a choice. Because the answer wasn't made clear and it still hasn't been.
Could you please provide some support here for 'they did it to give us a choice?' Because that 'choice' gave us the option to go with Barret or Yuffie, and we also have the choice to ignore Yuffie and Vincent.
We have reasonable cause to think Cloud and Aerith, and you've got reasonable cause to think Cloud and Tifa.
You say you have reasonable cause. Can you explain why your cause is reasonable? What evidence leads you to think that C/A is a reasonable suspicion, more reasonable than a filial relationship? This is, as I keep trying to get back to, in many ways the heart of the matter.
In another way, though, it seems our causes are at the root a fight of the Gnostic vs the Agnostic philosophy. I've been stressing that there is a truth, that we CAN know. You seem to stress the reverse, in a postmodernist 'there is no wrong view' skein (And newsflash to the postmodernists, you were wrong. There's no 'wrong' emotional reaction to a scenario, but there are DEFINITELY incorrect hypotheses about the facts of the scenario and the narratives of those books)
Guess I forgot the apostrophe.
More you forgot to remove '2k'
Beautifully said.
Thank you.
It's really A LOT. She's had a great impact on Cloud, so much that he will never forget her even if they had only a few weeks of interaction.
But so to will Vincent, Cid, Barret, Nanaki, Reeve, Marlene, and Tifa never forget her.
And Marlene had a few minutes!
He accepted being her bodyguard almost immediately, he smiled with her, he rushed to save her when she got kidnapped, and he had her engraved in his heart/memory for all time... Whoop!
All of those things, if we take them as romantic, put her on equal footing with Tifa, meaning Cloud loves both women.
But the thing is, he's living with Tifa. Aerith, if we recognize Maiden, recognizes this. Hell, repeatedly Aerith keeps punting his ass back to the world of the living. If Cloud does romantically love Aerith, she's telling him not to bother. She's not pulled a literal Anna or Rachel, but she has led him back to Tifa when his mind was in the lifestream after fighting Sephiroth. She healed his dying body and sent him back to his family where he belongs (along with Zack telling him he didn't belong in the afterlife). Aerith is sending the boy a message.
So worry more about making that case, not tearing down the wall for the other pair.
Oh! Somehow her
Fantasy world seems closer to the Fantasy world of FF7 than your "reality"
Ignoring that this is an insult and a bad one for the sake of argument, what 'reality' other than the reality that we all share are you speaking of, and how does her fantasy speculation more fit the FF7 world more than this 'reality'
Inquiring minds want to know if you have any substance to the accusation.
Alright I just read everything closely here and
This was probably my fault. I probably screwed up your quotes when I sent them to her. I know you don't like the PM thing, but it's easier on her modem.
Anastar can turn off Sigs, Avatars, and Images under her general options, and change the color scheme to a much simpler mode.
Saw this and decided to oblige while I was in the neighborhood. Off the top of my head without digging too far, my "return" post to the thread comes to mind.
The reason I want the earliest example of insults is because a number of people believe that it was Anastar that acted in an unvicil manner first.
And don't get me wrong, I'm not saying no insults are fired. They are. I know the people here. We insult the people we like from time to time. I just want an example of the insult threshhold- to see what counts as an insult, just as I wanted to know what counted as slander earlier in the thread. In that case, it turned saying 'bullshit' counted as slander in Anastar's eyes.
This is just one more log on the fire of "Anastar doesn't even read what we say" logic.
Considering that Anastar has been found to have neglected to respond to significant portions of posts, and has repeatedly resisted attempts to be corrected about Shadow's demise, this one I cannot call an insult.
This person is an expert on jumping to conclusions folks, maybe we should listen to her this time?
Your unwillingness to comprehend these things is cute. Sad, but cute. I could just put you in my pocket.
These two, I can see as insults, but I also know GLD felt she was being materially dishonest with her responses, which while not a 'you fucker', is quite insulting and rude.
I think she did, when everything she does seem to be with the intention of retaining a man who just doesn’t seem to be there.
But he was there most of the time. He was spending time with the family. He was happy with them.
This pairing is about 80% struggles and 20% anything else. If that’s just every pairing then I think I’ve just lost faith in love.
That's an interestingly specific percentage you have there. Where are you getting 80% struggle from? And to be frank, life is full of struggles, not just relationships.
He comes as self-centered when he just won’t share what’s inside of him with his life-long “partner” and thus creating doubt and frustration on her by constantly keeping things to himself and doing things behind her back.
But if he does these admittedly stupid things with his family in mind. It makes him a dumbass, not self centered.
Or maybe because they realized they “unintentionally” portrayed her as clingy in the original game.
Yeah, this argument didn't hold water back when it was the 'Butting into the private promised land thoughts' argument, and really doesn't hold water now.
Seriously, your dictionary Tactic just won’t do it for me.
It's not a tactic. You're not a native speaker. The dictionary is a more objective reference, and I doubt we're going DSMIV here.
1.- We’re not talking about sexual perversions, so this definition certainly does not apply to neither Tifa or Cloud. (Unless we count rocks and grass as a need to reach sexual arousal).
Agreed. Also, rocks and grass wouldn't be required, they just wouldn't get in the way. Difference.
And even if they were required, that would be a different sexual fetish altogether.
Also, either Tifa or Cloud.
2.- Constantly wallowing on guilt to the point of detaching yourself from the external world sounds to me like:
He constantly chases after his own self with inner persecutory thoughts to the point of neglecting people around him, causing pain on others because of his self-pitying behavior which despite the effort of his “family” to make him come to his senses, just won’t change him.
Either he’s stupid/crazy or he enjoys self-pity which actually doesn’t sound so incredible coming from a person whose dealt with identity crisis throughout the entire compilation.
So, you're not responding to the definitions I put forth at all. Because none of what I cited mentioned 'constantly wallowing in guilt' or even guilt, and even if you're arguing that that is pain and degradation, it makes no case for -taking gratification- in it, which is the most important part.
3.- Self-denial: “Sacrifice of one's own desires or interests.” Oh! Tifa…[/B]
Again 'finds pleasure in' self denial. That does mean she'd ENJOY it.
Seriously, you're wrong in your usage of Masochist. Please accept this and move on.
Or perhaps a woman so desperate to hold onto a man who just seems to be drifting away.
Congratulations, you're trying to argue with a fact now. And by introducing a tangent to the original point. Concession of original point accepted, unless you'd like to explain how this non sequitor has anything to do with 'And asking for all these traits Cloud just doesn’t seem to have to manifest,'
Thank you, I’ll keep it in mind to improve my use of the language.
You accept this, but not Masochist. Odd.
I didn’t know Cloud and Vincent (Or anyone else for the matter) shared something deeper than friendship.
Now you’re saying he’s promiscuous?
I think what I'm saying right now is that you're missing the point I was trying to make.
Also, Aerith and X. It's Cloud's name you replace. And no, I wasn't saying she was promiscuous either. I said she had an impact on everyone beyond simple friendship.
Saving Tifa from Don Corneo= Aerith’s idea.
How he did it, yes. Cloud was planning on charging in. The intent was all his.
Saving Aerith from ShinRa= Barret [To Cloud]: “So there are times when even you fight for other people. I am impressed”,
So, Cloud will save people in trouble. This is actually a standard behaviour of 'real Cloud,' and he is driven by it and his promise during Before Crisis.
But I did ask for examples, plural. Could you give other instances where you think Aerith 'gets him moving without needing to ask?'
penance [ˈpɛnəns]
n
1. voluntary self-punishment to atone for a sin, crime, etc.
2. a feeling of regret for one's wrongdoings
3. (Christianity / Ecclesiastical Terms) Christianity
a. a punishment usually consisting of prayer, fasting, etc., undertaken voluntarily as an expression of penitence for sin
b. a punishment of this kind imposed by church authority as a condition of absolution
I thought you said he was not a masochist.
I did. Punishing onesself doesn't make you a masochist automatically.
And why aren’t Tifa and the kids enough reason to justify his own happiness to himself?
Justify deserving what makes him happy with the very thing that makes him happy?
That's tautologous.
Which begins to happen when he actually meets Aerith in the Forgotten City.
Once again, it is Aerith who makes him come to his senses. Not Tifa.
It's Vincent, actually. And Tifa, Aerith, and even Marlene helped as well. But you know, Cloud did actually start just plain trying again when Tifa asked him to.
Despite numerous quotes from SE stating exactly the opposite…damn those liars!
You're joking, right?
There's no quote saying Cloud didn't remind Aerith of Zack, numerous quotes that do, and several that go so far as to say she fell for him because of this assocation.
It is actually called “Null hypothesis” and sure it can be proved.
When the alternate hypothesis which implies a positive remark is proved wrong then the Null hypothesis turns out to be correct.
The Null hypothesis is 'wedunno,' kiddo. And you never prove it.
So no, I’m not wrong.
Apart from the alternate position being validated by the evidence.
It is not realistic, it is painful.
Of course couples struggle at different times in their relationship, but not just 80% or more of it.
You've pulled that hyperbolic percentage out twice now. Why?
And that has to do with…
Him knowing what masochism is and what masochists are.
Then perhaps you should consider not posting insulting one liners in the future.
Also, before I forget, please do respond to this section of my previous post to me that you ignored.
To atone for his failing. To maybe, just maybe, get a cure. Because Cloud started out looking for a cure. He stayed away when it looked like he was going to die without it. Cloud felt he wasn't worthy of his family and the happiness they brought him. He had to do something to be worthy of them, or be forgiven so that he could return to them.
Cloud isn't looking for someone else to comfort him, he's looking for something to allow or justify his own happiness to himself.
Part of why he initially takes in Denzel is because you can't bring back the dead, but you can take care of those still living. Denzel is Cloud's atonement, the act of justification which allows him to feel happy without feeling guilty. And when Denzel's sickness comes to a head, Cloud looks for a cure- he's not going to fail this time. And then he gets the disease himself. He can't face his family being a burden and a failure. He doesn't want to force them to take care of unworthy him. So he seeks whatever he can to release his guilt to return home.
At the absolute root of Cloud's story in AC/C is that happiness of his family life makes him feel guilty, and that he must DO something in order to deserve his happiness. But he's also afraid of screwing things up and ruining everything. Cloud's turning point comes when he realizes that succeeding isn't the requirement. It's trying. Pushing forward, even if you fail. By trying to atone, he's already atoning, already proving his worthiness of that happiness.
