The Love Triangle Debate thread of KNEEL BEFORE ZOD OR SUFFER HIS WRATH (ignore the opening posts at your peril) (Round 6)

[Wolfmania]

No need to even mention that Cloud needed to be scolded and turned back into reality. To say what Tifa did is anything negative is nothing short of ridiculous. Should she just let the man she loves, father of her familiy, waste away in degradation? Wretched? How do you have the gall to use that conotation for what Tifa did?

But fuck that, let's make it even more simple. If Tifa hadn't done that, Cloud would've never recovered, would've went back to the church, wasted away and died an emotional wreck with absolutely no willwpower of his own.

And that means what? Good-bye planet. Nice knowing you, I just hope the catastrophic crash against a bigger piece of rock dosen't hurt much after Sephiroth telekinetically rides you through space.

Tifa, indirectly, saved the world by saving Cloud's life, and then helping restore real!Cloud, buried beneath suicidal!Cloud.

Wretched? How about heroic? But, even then, that was not her primary motivation.

 

[Marle]

You have got to be kidding me.

I wonder if people really do understand the point of it? I do feel a huge sense of Clerith hints are played out, completely. Here’s my take on it:

Let’s start with where Final Fantasy VII ended off. Cloud and co. defeated Sephiroth and the planet was being attacked by Meteor. Cloud has this vision of a woman’s hand (Aerith’s hand) reaching out to him. He knows in his heart that it is Aerith, and so he reaches back, excited to see her. In reality, Aerith was leading him to Tifa’s hand to protect him from imminent death. Before they plummet to the center of the planet and what would be their demise, Cloud tells Tifa that he can “find her there.” At the Promised Land, and that he was going to look for her (Aerith.)

As the Lifestream spurts out of the planet to stop Meteor, it is realized that it is the cause of Aerith gathering all the consciousness within the planet. Before the scene finishes, we see an image of Aerith, and then the credits roll.

Two years pass. We have questions unanswered: What became of AVALANCHE afterwards? Did Cloud ever go on his search for Aerith? And if you watched the 500 years epilogue, how did Nanaki find his mate?

Advent Children was meant to answer at least the first two. Cloud has fallen into this trap of depression. He has placed himself at fault for everything that happened to two people whom he cherished with all his heart. They made him stronger, and yet, he could do nothing when they met their fate. Cloud was afraid of being happy, because he could lose it all again. There is no denying that Cloud was indeed content with his situation, but there is still the fact that Aerith lingered in his heart, that she consumed his thoughts.

Cloud would stay at Aerith’s church. He found some sort of comfort there, because he could feel closer to her. Completely normal behavior for someone who is mourning the loss of a loved one. He was coping the best way he knew how; all alone. Cloud had been all alone most of his life, and when he became close to people, terrible things happened. He didn’t want to be the cause of another loved one’s demise.

Then Cloud meets Denzel. He is completely convinced that Aerith brought this little boy to him. That Denzel was like his and Aerith’s child, and that Cloud needed to protect him. He did what he knew to do best, and that was to take him back to 7th Heaven. He couldn’t keep the child at the church, and Cloud didn’t know the first thing about caring for a child. Tifa had cared for him when he was sick, so it would be perfectly logical to send the child to her who had experience with children already (Marlene).

If you ask me, there is a huge sense of Tifa being extremely insensitive to Cloud’s pain and his way of thinking. The two have little to no communication between the two of them, and when they do, Tifa takes on a much more motherly role over him. He’s afraid to tell her things that no one should have to be afraid to tell someone. He’s awkward and even talks to Tifa like he’s in need of her permission for things. He talk to her like he’s a child and she’s the adult. It’s very strange. Tifa even treats Cloud like a child. She often scolds him and tells him he’s wrong. When he tells Tifa that he thinks Aerith brought Denzel to him, Tifa “corrects” him and says she brought him to the both of them, to which Cloud doesn’t respond (iirc).

She even gives him an ultimatum, which, in this situation, is extremely selfish. “Which is it? A memory or us?” To refer to a cherished individual as a mere memory is just wretched in my honest opinion. Why is he not allowed to continue to love his lost mage and still be a part of their family? That’s almost like marrying a widow (if you indeed believe Cloud and Aerith had a romantic relationship) and then telling him to completely forget about his first wife, whom he would STILL be with had they not died. It’s just terrible.

Throughout the movie, Tifa is very forceful on Cloud to get better, whereas Aerith merely encourages him to realize that life goes on, she is still by his side, and he isn’t at fault for anything that happened. Tifa just doesn’t get it. “Look at you, you think you’ve got it so damn hard!” That’s not what he’s upset about! He’s in a state of mourning and fear! Losing loved ones is hard! Of course you want him to move on, that’s understandable, but forcing him to put a smile on his face won’t be what gets him back on his feet. Healing takes time, and longer for some.

I think Advent Children really does show you just how incompatible Cloud and Tifa really are. They have little to no communication and both think the other is a totally different person. They know next to nothing about each other, and Tifa has no idea how to handle Cloud when he’s at his worst. Ever since the promise at the well, she has forced him into a role that he wasn’t ready for.

Eventually, Cloud starts to crawl his way back up to some form of contentment. He’s hesitant, but his visions of Aerith help encourage him. The children in danger that he cares about are also a part of that. He is beaten, still a weak-willed man scared of failure. So scared, in fact, that his actions are shaky and unstable. He’s so unsure of himself.

Soon, he builds up the courage to fight. You know why? Because of Aerith’s words of encouragement and even her slight teasing of his self-blame. “Dilly dally shilly shally! Isn’t it time you did the forgiving?” She never blamed him for her death. Not even once. The fact that she found he was being silly is probably what made him realize just how much she meant those words. He had been forgiven, and now the only person’s forgiveness he still needed was his own.

He charges on to finish old business, defeat this monster-man who had actually been to blame for all the sadness he and his comrades and fallen loved ones had had to endure. He was ready to end it all, build a bridge and move on. Though he is defeated unexpectedly (shot by Loz and Yazoo), it is not his time to leave the planet.

And where does he wake up? In his Promised Land, which is in Aerith’s church, which is also Aerith’s Promised Land. This is the place that has always offered him comfort, healing, serenity, and warmth. It only makes sense that her church would be his paradise. And when he wakes in his paradise, all those who adore him are there waiting for him, including Aerith and Zack. He has just seen two ghosts, and his face lights up. Even though they are gone, they are still there for him during his high moments, his low moments, and all in between. He wasn’t alone and he never would be. He’s finally forgiven himself.

Advent Children is a movie about forgiveness, moving on, life after death, and knowing that just because we have lost someone very dear, they continue to live on within our hearts. The ones we love will never die so long as we hold them close to our hearts. That is what Advent Children is about. IMHO, it’s telling us the Aerith and Cloud can NEVER be separated. She continues to live on in his heart, in his very soul. They share the same Promised Land, the same world.

What gets me about Cloti’s is that they always (at least, a great deal of them) claim Cloud is such an asshole to Tifa, so why do you fight so hard that they are the canon coupling? I just don’t get it. Why would you think that they’re meant to be? It’s not even about whether Tifa is good for Cloud, but is Cloud good for Tifa? He doesn’t know how to handle her and her worst, either. He doesn’t know her, either. Tifa needs a protector to fit into her princess desires. She needs a knight in shining armor who can make her laugh and remind her that she has no reason to be afraid to share her feelings. She needs someone like Zack. Zack and Tifa would be such a great match, they really would. It breaks my heart that so many just can’t seem to see that.

Here was my lengthy ass reply to this ridiculous post on tumblr. Also c/ped.

Okay, so I agree with a bit of what you’re saying but there’s some things I have to say are not the way I saw it at all. I am a Cloti fan but I’m not a cray cray so this isn’t an attack or anything. I just want to get my perspective out there in a mature sense because your post is largely opinion and I like swapping opinions.

Also, I like to prove that not all Cloti fans are mean and nasty towards the clerith pairing.

I agree with almost everything you say up until you say Tifa was insensitive to Cloud and his pain. I didn’t see her being ‘insensitive’ to his pain. The woman gave him space and time and didn’t question him or his absence. She let him do his thing and figured he’d come to her on his own terms. Tifa has always been someone to treat others with a sensitive plight. Sure, she probably didn’t know how to handle the situation but at the same time, she didn’t press him or nag him or annoy him about it.

I think she was being extremely sensitive to his pain, maybe a little too much so. She gave him too much space when what she should have done is call him out on it from the get go and talk it out.

Yes, they have very little communication and I also see that as an issue. But I feel like that was more Square Enix being lazy and rehashing issues from the original game that were thought to be solved already. Either way, I don’t get why people feel like every relationship has to be sunshine and rainbows? Like every person must be so compatible for one another in order for it to be true love?

That’s why I like Cloud and Tifa. They have problems. They are not perfect for each other, they are not soul mates, they don’t ‘complete’ one another. But they try because they’re in love (imo). And they’re willing to try and fix things for the sake of love and in the end, isn’t that what every real couple does?

The mother comment is something that always bothers me, whether it’s for Aerith or Tifa. Neither woman is suddenly Cloud’s mother instead of lover simply because they nurture and care for him. It is in a female’s nature to mother the man she loves. It doesn’t make them less of a romantic prospective simply because they do this. Women take care of their lovers because they want to, not because they want to be seen like their mother.

Yeesh.

Cloud is afraid to tell anyone anything. The guy spent a portion of his life in a freaking test tube. Cloud has never, ever been good at communicating with people. He’s afraid of opening up to Tifa because he’s afraid of hurting her. It’s in his nature; Cloud always wants to protect without realizing he distances himself in this way. He doesn’t want her to worry or get attached because he knows he is dying.

Cloud is a LOT like a child. This is not suddenly Tifa’s fault. It’s his own flaw. He lost five years of his life in a tube. In his mind, he’s still this naive kid. Hence the reason the relationship is weird but, with anyone, I feel like Cloud would act this way. It isn’t because it’s Tifa.

She often scolds him? She scolded him once. And she was growing fed up with his attitude. I swear, sometimes I feel like Tifa can do no right. I would have snapped at my boyfriend if he started acting the way Cloud was acting. I guess that would make me a terrible girlfriend?

The Denzel comment is really not how I saw it at ALL. Wow. Cloud smiles, he SMILES at her when she says that Aerith brought Denzel to the both of them. He’s happy with that comment, not miserable because Tifa is stealing his moment with Aerith. @_@ She did not ‘correct’ him in a way that was supposed to seem obnoxious, she wanted him to know that she accepted Denzel too and that she believed in him. At least, that was what I got when I read the novella.

Her line of “A memory or us” is also something I saw differently. I didn’t see Tifa being a selfish witch saying: PICK ME CLOUD OVER AERITH OR ELSE.

I saw it as a subtle way of reminding him that what he was doing was tearing his family apart. IMO, she didn’t mean for him to choose anything, only to awaken him to the realization of what he was doing to himself and those he loved.

Believe it or not, I’m totally okay with Cloud still loving Aerith. I personally don’t see it that way, but I know a lot of people who claim he loves both women and I honestly feel like that’s entirely reasonable and plausible. I don’t get why he’s always got to ‘choose’ one over the other. He’s loved Tifa from his childhood and he met Aerith and it is entirely possible he loved her as well. Did that cancel his feelings for Tifa out? I don’t think so. Does the fact that Aerith died and Tifa is still breathing means he settled? Fuck no. Does the fact that Aerith died mean Cloud stopped loving her and moved on with Tifa? No. He could have loved both women equally and had Aerith lived, who knows what could have happened?

Both women, imo, at the end, want Cloud to be happy. That is how much they loved him. I firmly believe that if Aerith lived, Tifa would have stepped back and allowed for them to be together. In the same way, I saw Aerith try to bring Cloud back to his family in ACC because she wanted him to be happy, out of the love she bore for him.

Wait what? Tifa is forceful? Woah. She gave the guy space and time and let him do his thing and she was forceful? Did we watch the same movie? Yes, she argued with him. I can’t blame her. I was cheering for her to call him out on his bullshit attitude towards his family. This woman suffered a long period of time where she had to take care of the kids, run her business, help him with his deliveries, leave him messages and deal with the fact that the man she loves might be dying. Cloud’s intentions may have been good and he may have been grieving, but he was hurting his family at the end of the day.

He was the one who wanted to live with Tifa in the first place and then he completely abandons her without so much as a word. As a couple, people fight. The argument and harsh words Tifa dished out were the feelings she’d been holding back for so long. I didn’t see Tifa being this big nasty bitch when she did that. I saw her being the lover he left behind trying to remind him what he was doing to her and her family. She is a woman fighting for what she loves.

I really dislike this image of Aerith being a sweet flawless angel while Tifa is painted some sort of bitch. I love Aerith. She’s feisty and cute and strong willed and had it been her, she’d have acted differently with Cloud, yes. Both women have contrasting ways of dealing with things but neither of them are always right. Example; the scene with Barret at the Gold Saucer. Aerith was insensitive to Barret’s feelings, does that make her a bitch? No. It gave her character, it added depth and quite frankly, I loved her for it. That was just who she was.

Yes, you’re right; they are incompatible. But often times, couples are. You aren’t going to find a person who is going to fit you like a puzzle piece. Love is about compromise and sacrifice as much as it is about rainbows and butterflies. Cloud and Tifa have to sacrifice a lot and work hard to make what they have work but the point is, they do. They try. At the end of the day, Cloud returns home and spends time with his family, happy to be happy at last thanks to Aerith, Zack and everyone else who gave him the courage to live his life.

It doesn’t necessarily mean he ever has to ‘move on’. Cloud’s problem was never moving on. His problem was that he was too happy and he felt undeserving of that happiness while others suffered for it. He felt guilty for being so blissfully happy and it sent him into this rut.

And then he felt useless again when he couldn’t save Denzel. He felt like a burden and that he can’t help anyone because he failed so many others in his past. Believe it or not, Tifa is one of the people he feels he failed as well.

You realize it wasn’t only Aerith’s words that encouraged him right? I believe there’s a quote somewhere saying how it was a combination of Aerith, Tifa, Vincent and Marlene who woke him up to what he was doing.

Agreed about Aerith forgiving him. She never needed to forgive him because she never blamed him. She loved him so much that she never thought ill of him.

Hm, disagree about the physical church being his promised land, though. I felt like there was a deeper meaning there. The people, being surrounded by all those he loved was his true promised land. That included Aerith and Zack’s ghost, by the way. His promised land are the people, not the actual church, imo. If it were the church, he still seemed awfully unhappy during the time he was living there, imo.

After that, I’m on board with you on what the meaning is of the movie.

As a cloti, let me answer your questions. You did tag this in the cloti tag so I expect you want answers.

Cloud isn’t an asshole to Tifa. He hurts her, yes. She hurts him, yes. They screw up, they hurt each other while their intentions are always the opposite. Cloud’s actions in ACC affected Tifa badly but in Cloud’s mind, he was protecting her. Tifa not confronting Cloud in the beginning about their problems distanced him from her even more. But she felt he needed space and time away. Which may not have been the best way to go about it.

Why do I fight so hard to prove them canon? LOL, I don’t. I believe they are canon, yes. From my interpretations of the translations and what not and my whole experience with the entire series, that is how I feel. I don’t speak Japanese so I can’t argue with quotes and the like because…well, that’s sort of invalid? Also, simply because they’re the canon couple doesn’t make them the better couple, imo. If you feel Clerith is better, who am I to tell you otherwise?

I enjoyed Cloud and Aerith’s interactions in-game quite a lot. They had a very beautiful relationship and it’s sad that we never get to see it go further. I am friends with people who appreciate and love them more than Cloti but know cloti is canon. Sometimes, I even feel that by canonizing cloti, the pairing lost a lot of it’s natural beauty. But that’s because I’m not the biggest fan of ACC.

The funny thing is, you don’t like cloti because they’re incompatible and I find it entirely refreshing. I’m sick of the typical FF love story with the cliche characters and corny romance. I never get attached to them. I will like them and not mind them but they’re so boring and bland most of the time. Which is why you’ll never see me writing fiction on Rinoa/Squall or Yuna/Tidus. I just don’t care enough? I like pairings where everything isn’t already said and done.

Are Cloud and Tifa good for each other? No, they aren’t. They hurt one another, they make mistakes, they work it out and then they continue on living. To me, that’s the very essence of being with someone you love. You have problems but you overcome them. It isn’t always about knowing what to do when the person is at their worst. It’s about coming through on it together at the end.

Hehe, Zack/Tifa is one of my fave crackships tbh. So no argument there. Even so, I feel like the two would have their own problems. Which, imo, is a good thing. But I love Zerith and Cloti and they’re always my go-to. I won’t get into Zack and Aerith though. This post is lengthy enough.

Also, I do not intend to change your opinion or view or make you like Cloti. I just want to make a stance on my side of the argument.

I could respond to more stuff, but everyone has pretty much said what I would anyway so.

 

[Wolfmania]

Are Cloud and Tifa good for each other? No, they aren’t. They hurt one another, they make mistakes, they work it out and then they continue on living. To me, that’s the very essence of being with someone you love. You have problems but you overcome them. It isn’t always about knowing what to do when the person is at their worst. It’s about coming through on it together at the end.

Good God, THANK YOU for that comment. This is one of the pivotal points that I think might irk Cleriths, and maybe that's because they don't fully understand 'love', or at least the love portrayed by FFVII.

Love isn't all fun and games, as much as today's music may portray that in the false dichotomy: 'If my love is here, everything's awesome! If she's not, everything's bad!".

No. As much as current culture might portray love like that, It's MUCH more complicated, which is why I like Cloud and Tifa. It's that great, darker, Shakespearean love that sometimes hurts, yet is also the most wonderful feeling.

You know, the real kind. I think Clerith's might see that as a sign of, I don't know, 'not-love'. Which is completely wrong.

 

[Danseru-kun]

Love isn't all fun and games, as much as today's music may portray that in the false dichotomy: 'If my love is here, everything's awesome! If she's not, everything's bad!".

No. As much as current culture might portray love like that, It's MUCH more complicated, which is why I like Cloud and Tifa. It's that great, sometimes dark, Shakespearean love that sometimes hurts.

You know, the real kind. I think Clerith's might see that as a sign of, I don't know, 'not-love'. Which is completely wrong.

If you ask me, when I read Case of Tifa I reall didn't see a failing relationship, I see a struggling young couple trying to be parents despite their insecurities and weaknesses. I never fell in love or had a relationship, but I know how hard it is to raise a family in a harsh setting. I know how a terminal disease can affect individuals. Cloud was acting like my grandfather before he died; not wanting to bother his children who spent time taking care of him, feels guilt for all the medical expenses and was losing his faith. Just like Cloud, he recovered though, with the help of his family. Cloud's depression is a very human reaction especially after what he had been through.

I know the Clerith perspective may be romantic but I don't like it when Cloud's humanity is dismissed as a proof that Cloti doesn't work and Aerith will be what he needed to overcome his troubles. To add, I also don't like it when Cloud's failure help himself despite Tifa's support is a proof that Tifa lacks what Aerith had to bring Cloud back together, which we never really see in the OG.

 

[Wolfmania]

That's precisely It. I see Clerith's trying to tax Cloud/Tifa as a failed relationship simply because their love is not idealistic or utopic, because it's human. Profoundly so.

Cloud's reflection of the human psyche and mind is what made his character awesome. It's what made the whole 'a puppet, his illusion and his and puppeteer' plot-point my favorite.

I also dislike when people people try to downplay Cloud's humanity, especially since that's arguably the core of his character. Unlike 'monsters' such as Sephiroth, Genesis, etc... he never estranged himself from his human side, which is why I love the fact Cloud does not, and will never, posses a wing. Unlike his fakey, non-canon KH version.

To summarize: a struggling relationship does not mean a failed relationship.

It just means both Cloud and Tifa are human. And extremely well-written and developed characters at that.

 

[OneWingedDemon]

Ugh. "A memory or us?" again?
FOR FUCK'S SAKE, IT REFERS TO THE BATTLE WITH SEPHIROTH!!
You know, the guy who kinda fucked everything up for Cloud and is now killing him slowly.

This line should have made that more than obvious: "Stay there in my memories"
Said to Sephiroth. Not Aeris. Because it's negative, depressing ass memories of failure and loss. Those memories.

What does Sephiroth say? "I will never be a memory".
Why? Because Cloud's memories were very much affecting his life even after the event and for him they weren't just memories, but real obstacles he could not see beyond. He was literally defeated by them, paralyzed into inaction again as he was when Aeris was about to die (after the dream in the forest). Remember when Cloud refused to budge because he was fucking terrified of himself and Sephiroth? Ja, that.


Sephiroth says he will never be only a memory, that he will continue to have the same fucking effect on Cloud.

Stop downplaying my bb

 

[Vendel]

Ugh. "A memory or us?" again?
FOR FUCK'S SAKE, IT REFERS TO THE BATTLE WITH SEPHIROTH!!
You know, the guy who kinda fucked everything up for Cloud and is now killing him slowly.

This line should have made that more than obvious: "Stay there in my memories"
Said to Sephiroth. Not Aeris. Because it's negative, depressing ass memories of failure and loss. Those memories.

I have seen Q bring up several times that Tifa asking "Aerith or me" makes no sense whatsoever.

"Hey Cloud our children are missing so I need you to decide between me or Aerith....."

 

[Alessa Gillespie]

moreover the fact that tifa says 'you were watching the whole time, weren't you' at a waterdrop implied to be aerith or some junk did not seem to imply any 'HEY Y WERE U MESSING WITH CLOUD AT ALL' or anything, and aerith ALSO wants cloud to move on, as implied in the flower field scene

so apparently most people in the movie can see what the line is about: are you going to lose against your demons, or move forward

 

[OneWingedDemon]

I like how Tifa is the selfish one when Cloud is basically standing around moping about his angsty man pain while his fucking kids are kidnapped. What a bitch for telling him to move his ass.

Hell, even Aeris was so annoyed at this douchefuckery she had to schedule in a trip from beyond the freakin grave!

 

[Dashell]

I'm going through some issues now and I saw these posts and I wasn't gonna say anything... I was going to leave my last response here to "k" and dismiss the whole thing but then Vendel made me laugh and I remembered why I do enjoy this sometimes.

I like how Tifa is the selfish one when Cloud is basically standing around moping about his angsty man pain while his fucking kids are kidnapped. What a bitch for telling him to move his ass.

Exactly. The FFVII Fandom is the ONLY fandom, probably in the history of the world where telling a man who once saved the world to go rescue his kidnapped children is considered nagging or selfish.

 

[Blade]

So many late-comers to this debate...honestly, I still want a Harem, instead.

With Cloud Strife as the omni-pimp, and a harem consisting of Aerith, Tifa, Scarlet, Elfé, Jessie, "Shotgun", "Gun"+Elena (hot blonde sisters lol), "Martial Arts", "Shuriken", Rosso, and Shalua+Shelke (cute brunette sisters lol).

It would be glorious!

Someone needs to do a fanart of this! Canon logic be damned...(hey if they can resurrect Jihl Nabaat as DLC for FFXIII-2...)

 

[BlankBeat]

The last few days I've been on this forum I've really appreciated your thoughts and responses. When I decided to engage in this debate I never realized I wouldn't be able to get it out of my head. No wonder people have spent years debating this topic and still, to this day, continue to debate it. I have so much more I want to say and so many thoughts I'd like to share. But as evidenced by how many pages this thread has already accumulated, this is a never-ending debate and both sides will probably never see eye-to-eye. If I don't stop debating soon, I feel as though I'll never be able to stop! Anyway...here I go!

I firmly believe Squaresoft purposely included a love triangle in Final Fantasy VII for a reason. Square wanted a game revolved around a protagonist that was torn between a love for two women. Throughout Final Fantasy VII, Square gave us examples that showed Cloud loved both Aerith and Tifa -- hence a love triangle. It has always been up to each gamer to decide who Cloud loves more, which makes this debate a matter of opinion.

But for the sake of the compilation, there has to be one answer. But I honestly don't think Square has given us an answer and in many ways, I feel as though the answer is that Cloud loves both Aerith and Tifa in different ways and for different reasons. There is firm evidence to support both sides, but depending on your personal preference, the evidence each side presents may or may not seem convincing.

While I played the game growing up as a teenager, I always felt Cloud loved Aerith in a romantic way, and that his feelings for Tifa were of a strong love between two friends. I've cited numerous scenes, dialogue and reasons that suggests this to me. But in the last few weeks, after deciding to see what others thought online, I now realize there are numerous people who feel the exact opposite. Funny how people can play the same game and come away with two totally different perspectives. But I think that's the way Square always intended for it to play out between those who played the game.

I don't believe that one single page in the Ultimania proves Square officially believes Cloti is canon. It just doesn't add up to me. If they truly wanted to come out with an official position, I don't think they would have chosen to do it so ambiguously on one single page (a page, I might add, that's in Japanese and could easily be missed by millions of Final Fantasy VII fans). If they were to make such a bold declaration, I believe they would have done it differently and probably through a different platform. The importance of this page seems to be over inflated; but I can understand why considering how long this debate has been raging.

I truly believe if you asked Square about the page personally, they would be shocked to find out so much hoopla has been made over it. I don't think they ever intended for this page to be used as official evidence to declare that Cloti is canon. But let's examine the page in question for the sake of argument.

All of the scenes in the Ultimania portraying the other canon couples are not optional scenes. So although the page in question is showing romantic couples of the Final Fantasy series, the Ultimania made sure to point out that the pairing of Cloud and Tifa is an optional romance depending on which Highwind scene occurs.

Why would Square point out this distinction if it wasn't a valid distinction? I'll tell you why: because it is a valid distinction. It's a valid distinction because Final Fantasy VII is the story revolving around a love triangle. Square wanted to make sure readers understood that although the other Final Fantasy couples are not optional, Tifa and Cloud are, in fact, an optional romantic couple.

Now just because Tifa and Cloud are an optional romantic couple does not mean they shouldn't be included on a page talking about romantic couples…but it does warrant a distinction, a distinction Sqaure provided.

But here's my real problem with using this as evidence that Cloti is canon. Most everyone would agree that Cloud loves Tifa. This page is simply stating what we already knew based on the high affection scene.

But how does Cloud's love for Tifa take away from his love for Aerith?
Hasn't the story of FFVII always been about a man who loves two women?
How does the Highwind scene prove Cloud loves Tifa more than Aerith?
Did Cloud's love for Aerith simply disappear after this scene takes place?

These questions have always been at the very crux of this debate, and have yet to officially be answered by Square. All Square officially said was that Cloud loves Tifa in the optional high affection Highwind scene. So in my mind, all Square did was confirm what we already knew: that Cloud loves Tifa. Square did not say, however, that Cloud doesn't have a separate love for Aerith -- a love that is clearly established throughout the game and is at the very core of the love triangle.

In real life, someone can love two people simultaneously, which is the very point I think Square was trying to make through establishing a love triangle in Final Fantasy VII. Given the very nature of Cloud, and his quest to find out who he truly is and discover his true feelings, it makes perfect sense that Square would present him with two equally valid love interests.

Also, if you take the fact that all the canon couples were included on this one page of the Ultimania, and use that as proof Cloti is canon because the page is discussing "romantic love," (omitting the picture of Aerith and Cloud because the caption doesn't specifically mention Aerith's name, even though it's obvious what Square was trying to do by including this picture on the page) -- my response would be this is hardly different than claiming the official artwork as a valid argument. All the official artwork produced for FFVIII, FFIX and FFX show the canon couples together romantically. The artwork for FFVII shows Aerith and Cloud together. Following the logic that all the canon couples were drawn together for the official artwork, Aerith and Cloud would clearly be the canon couple.

This leads me to this conclusion: Square has always given mixed messages about who the canon couple is for Final Fantasy VII on purpose because the story of Final Fantasy VII revolves around a love triangle. It is a story about a man who loves two women for different reasons, and the level of love, and the kind of love he has for each woman is purely a matter of opinion and the decisions each player makes during the game. The page in the Ultimania is simply more evidence that Square has always given us mixed messages, especially when they provided a distinction between Cloud, Tifa and the rest of the Final Fantasy couples included on that page.

In many ways, I feel as though the low affection Highwind scene is more accurate judging by the relationship shown between Cloud and Tifa in Advent Children. I just can't help but feel that the relationship shown in Advent Children is anything but romantic. Barret is also apart of Cloud and Tifa's family, and nowhere does it show any intimate scenes between Tifa and Cloud. If anything, it appears as if Tifa and Cloud have a complicated and sometimes hostile friendship with one another.

Also in Advent Children, Cloud's feelings toward Aerith are shown to be of guilt and remorse. But I also think they are feelings of love, and a desire for this love to continue in the Promise Land. In numerous material that Square has released since Final Fantasy VII, it shows Cloud searching for the Promise Land due to his guilt and desire for forgiveness. But Cloud's guilt and remorse seem directly linked, in my opinion, to his never-ending infatuation, love and quest to be with Aerith in the Promise Land.

Final Fantasy VII has always been a story that revolves around a love triangle and Cloud's struggle to comes to terms with it. Establishing Cloud's obvious love for Tifa (in the high affection scene) does not take away from his love for Aerith, nor does it prove he loves Tifa more than Aerith. All it proves is something we basically already knew.

Furthermore, Square made sure to provide a distinction in the Ultimania that points out that the romantic couple of Tifa and Cloud is different from all the other romantic couples shown on the same page. How is the couple of Cloud and Tifa different from the other couples? Their romance is based on an optional scene. Why did Square make sure to include this important distinction? Because Final Fantasy VII revolves around a love triangle.

Omitting Tifa and Cloud from a page discussing Final Fantasy romance because the couple is based on an optional scene doesn't make sense, but does warrant a distinction. A distinction Square was happy to give us.

This page in the Ultimania is further evidence of the mixed messages Square has always given us because they understand that Cloud loves both women for different reasons and in different ways. It boils down to a matter of opinion and that's why this debate continues to rage on. For anyone to use this single page as the end-all-be-all in declaring which couple is canon doesn't make sense to me. And I don't think Square intended for it to be used that way, especially because of the distinction they provided.

Anyway...sorry I didn't respond to all of your critiques. But there is honestly no way I have the time to respond to each of your posts individually, and I know any response I give will be met with several responses almost immediately. This is why I highly doubt any Clerith supporter will ever have a fighting chance here. I'm in no way saying this is a Cloti forum, it just coincidentally happens to have several pro-Cloti members that are extremely vocal and knowledgeable. That's not anyone's fault, but a simple fact. For anyone who cares, I've recently joined a few Cloud x Aerith forums and will probably post on them from now on.

I know some of you might view this as an easy way to escape this debate, but I truly don't have a fighting chance considering how outnumbered I am and the lack of time I have to construct adequate responses. I recently graduated from college and I'm in the process of getting my life in order. Debating on online forums should be the last thing on my list of things to do.

I bid you all farewell and I hope I've given you more insight into why some still feel Clerith is the true couple of Final Fantasy VII. I might return some day, and I'll probably come back to see if any Clerith supporters have gotten up the courage to debate you guys.

Have fun and don't rip apart my post too much, OK?

 

[Vendel]

Listening to Slipknot - Iowa as I reply. Seems appropriate.

I firmly believe Squaresoft purposely included a love triangle in Final Fantasy VII for a reason. Square wanted a game revolved around a protagonist that was torn between a love for two women.

And here we have the first big issue. A shipper looks at FFVII and thinks who Cloud loves was the most important thing on the creators minds as well.

The love triangle is an aspect of the story that ends on disk one. That's it.

Throughout Final Fantasy VII, Square gave us examples that showed Cloud loved both Aerith and Tifa -- hence a love triangle. It has always been up to each gamer to decide who Cloud loves more, which makes this debate a matter of opinion.

All that is required of a love triangle is that two people love a third.

Years later and we are still waiting for those examples that Cloud loved Aerith romantically.

But for the sake of the compilation, there has to be one answer.

There is.

But I honestly don't think Square has given us an answer

They have.

and in many ways, I feel as though the answer is that Cloud loves both Aerith and Tifa in different ways and for different reasons.

Yes Cloud loves Tifa in the "spend the rest of your life with and start a family" way. He loves Aerith as Tifa Barret and the rest do.

There is firm evidence to support both sides,

No there isn't.

but depending on your personal preference, the evidence each side presents may or may not seem convincing.

Preference has nothing to do with it. You either accept canon or you think Cloud prefers Aerith.

While I played the game growing up as a teenager, I always felt Cloud loved Aerith in a romantic way,

And you were wrong.

and that his feelings for Tifa were of a strong love between two friends.

Close but not quite.

I've cited numerous scenes, dialogue and reasons that suggests this to me.

All of which are painfully lacking.

But in the last few weeks, after deciding to see what others thought online, I now realize there are numerous people who feel the exact opposite.

Not just numerous. But most of the fandom.

Funny how people can play the same game and come away with two totally different perspectives. But I think that's the way Square always intended for it to play out between those who played the game.

Yes it is funny. And I highly doubt Square thought people could still be so wrong about the story over a decade after the game came out.

I don't believe that one single page in the Ultimania proves Square officially believes Cloti is canon.

Well that one page itself in fact says they are. But take that away and you still have literally everything else telling you the same thing.

It just doesn't add up to me.

Try this. "Cloud actually loves Tifa". With that in mind you might just have a moment of clarity.

If they truly wanted to come out with an official position, I don't think they would have chosen to do it so ambiguously on one single page (a page, I might add, that's in Japanese and could easily be missed by millions of Final Fantasy VII fans).

If SE was not goign to put this stuff in an Ultimania where would they? Oh again it's not just one page.

If they were to make such a bold declaration, I believe they would have done it differently and probably through a different platform.

It's not bold.

The importance of this page seems to be over inflated; but I can understand why considering how long this debate has been raging.

Well for something that isn't important it sure has put a burr up the ass of hardcore celrith shippers since it came out.

I would say it's far more important to you people than to those that accepted canon long ago.

I truly believe

Every time I see this I want to finish the sentence with "something obviously wrong".

if you asked Square about the page personally, they would be shocked to find out so much hoopla has been made over it.

That anyone has trouble understanding it maybe. Not that it says what it plainly says.

I don't think they ever intended for this page to be used as official evidence to declare that Cloti is canon. But let's examine the page in question for the sake of argument.

Again if SE doesn't consider their Ultimania to be official then what is? Why bother with them at all?

All of the scenes in the Ultimania portraying the other canon couples are not optional scenes. So although the page in question is showing romantic couples of the Final Fantasy series, the Ultimania made sure to point out that the pairing of Cloud and Tifa is an optional romance depending on which Highwind scene occurs.

Funny I don't see the word "optional" or any variation therein under the heading for C/T. Maybe I missed that?

Why would Square point out this distinction if it wasn't a valid distinction? I'll tell you why: because it is a valid distinction. It's a valid distinction because Final Fantasy VII is the story revolving around a love triangle. Square wanted to make sure readers understood that although the other Final Fantasy couples are not optional, Tifa and Cloud are, in fact, an optional romantic couple.

Again where does it say C/T is optional on that page?

Now just because Tifa and Cloud are an optional romantic couple does not mean they shouldn't be included on a page talking about romantic couples…but it does warrant a distinction, a distinction Sqaure provided.

Actually the page is about decelerations of romantic love. Just to clear that up.

But here's my real problem with using this as evidence that Cloti is canon. Most everyone would agree that Cloud loves Tifa. This page is simply stating what we already knew based on the high affection scene.

Where does it say "high affection" on that page?

But how does Cloud's love for Tifa take away from his love for Aerith?

It doesn't. It's just that his love for Aeirth is not of the romantic sort. Once you keep that in mind there is zero conflict.

Hasn't the story of FFVII always been about a man who loves two women?

No.

How does the Highwind scene prove Cloud loves Tifa more than Aerith?
Did Cloud's love for Aerith simply disappear after this scene takes place?[/b]

Cloud and Aeirth do not anything that establishes a mutual love. Cloud and Tifa have the lifestream sequence.

And again if you just keep in mind Cloud doesn't love Aerith "in that way" then there is no conflict.

These questions have always been at the very crux of this debate,

No they haven't.

and have yet to officially be answered by Square.

They are not questions that needed to be answered. And insofar as they do? Se has.

All Square officially said was that Cloud loves Tifa in the optional high affection Highwind scene.

No. what SQUARE ENIX said in it's ultimaia was.

"The night before the final battle

Thanks to Tifa, Cloud regains himself, and before the final battle with Sephiroth, without using words, he confirms with her that their feelings match."

So in my mind, all Square did was confirm what we already knew: that Cloud loves Tifa. Square did not say, however, that Cloud doesn't have a separate love for Aerith -- a love that is clearly established throughout the game and is at the very core of the love triangle.

Clearly established?

In real life, someone can love two people simultaneously, which is the very point I think Square was trying to make through establishing a love triangle in Final Fantasy VII.

Again I very seriously doubt Square gave it near as much thought as you think they did. And no where near what the CiC crowd has,.

Given the very nature of Cloud, and his quest to find out who he truly is and discover his true feelings, it makes perfect sense that Square would present him with two equally valid love interests.

And then one dies halfway through the game and he spends his last night on the planet with the other. Love Triangle solved. Thanks square!

Also, if you take the fact that all the canon couples were included on this one page of the Ultimania,

Not all of them were.

and use that as proof Cloti is canon because the page is discussing "romantic love," (omitting the picture of Aerith and Cloud because the caption doesn't specifically mention Aerith's name, even though it's obvious what Square was trying to do by including this picture on the page) -- my response would be this is hardly different than claiming the official artwork as a valid argument. All the official artwork produced for FFVIII, FFIX and FFX show the canon couples together romantically.

"All of the artwork" does not show what you claim it does.

The artwork for FFVII shows Aerith and Cloud together. Following the logic that all the canon couples were drawn together for the official artwork, Aerith and Cloud would clearly be the canon couple.

See above.

This leads me to this conclusion: Square has always given mixed messages about who the canon couple is for Final Fantasy VII on purpose because the story of Final Fantasy VII revolves around a love triangle.

They haven't. And it doesn't.

It is a story about a man who loves two women for different reasons,

Tits and Ass?

and the level of love, and the kind of love he has for each woman is purely a matter of opinion and the decisions each player makes during the game.

No it isn't.

The page in the Ultimania is simply more evidence that Square has always given us mixed messages, especially when they provided a distinction between Cloud, Tifa and the rest of the Final Fantasy couples included on that page.

They provide zero "distiction" between the C/T entry and the rest of the couples. The date entry is the one that sticks out. And it names no names.

In many ways, I feel as though the low affection Highwind scene is more accurate judging by the relationship shown between Cloud and Tifa in Advent Children.

Not sure how one would flow to the other. Two years later mind you.

I just can't help but feel that the relationship shown in Advent Children is anything but romantic.

And the relationship between Cloud and Aerith is?

Also not much time for some heavy petting between kidnappings and boss battles.

Barret is also apart of Cloud and Tifa's family,

No he isn't. At least not Cloud's

and nowhere does it show any intimate scenes between Tifa and Cloud.

Define "intimate". And then tell me based on that what his intimate scenes with Aerith were.

If anything, it appears as if Tifa and Cloud have a complicated and sometimes hostile friendship with one another.

Yes the type of friendship where you build a home together and raise children in it for the rest of your lives. That kind of everyday occurrence.....

Also in Advent Children, Cloud's feelings toward Aerith are shown to be of guilt and remorse. But I also think they are feelings of love, and a desire for this love to continue in the Promise Land.

If there was desire there why did Cloud nor Aerith show any AT ALL?

They had just reunited after nearly two years apart. This should be the emotional climax of the movie right? CLOUD HAS FINALLY FOUND AERITH! And what happens? Nothing. Aeirth tells Cloud to get over his guilt and she leaves with her Ex in the end.

In numerous material that Square has released since Final Fantasy VII, it shows Cloud searching for the Promise Land due to his guilt and desire for forgiveness. But Cloud's guilt and remorse seem directly linked, in my opinion, to his never-ending infatuation, love and quest to be with Aerith in the Promise Land.

Again if Cloud's desire was to be with Aerith why doesn't he make any effort to do so? He avoids the Forgotten City. And when she is right there in AC he watchers her leave with Zack. And then Cloud GOES HOME to be with his family.

Final Fantasy VII has always been a story that revolves around a love triangle and Cloud's struggle to comes to terms with it.

NO IT HASN'T.

Establishing Cloud's obvious love for Tifa (in the high affection scene) does not take away from his love for Aerith, nor does it prove he loves Tifa more than Aerith. All it proves is something we basically already knew.

Actually when it states Cloud and Tifa love each other romantically and it says zilch abotu Aerith that pretty much is exactly telling us he loves Tifa more than Aerith.

Furthermore, Square made sure to provide a distinction in the Ultimania that points out that the romantic couple of Tifa and Cloud is different from all the other romantic couples shown on the same page.

How?

How is the couple of Cloud and Tifa different from the other couples?

They're not.

Their romance is based on an optional scene.

It isn't.

Why did Square make sure to include this important distinction?

They didn't.

Because Final Fantasy VII revolves around a love triangle.

IT DOESN'T.

Omitting Tifa and Cloud from a page discussing Final Fantasy romance because the couple is based on an optional scene doesn't make sense, but does warrant a distinction. A distinction Square was happy to give us.

There is no distinction. Just saying there is doesn't make it so.

This page in the Ultimania is further evidence of the mixed messages Square has always given us because they understand that Cloud loves both women for different reasons and in different ways.

The message is not mixed. Only the brains of the people reading it.

It boils down to a matter of opinion

No it doesn't.

and that's why this debate continues to rage on.

That and denial.

For anyone to use this single page as the end-all-be-all in declaring which couple is canon doesn't make sense to me.

That you think this is the only thing that declares C/T canon and being confused by this doesn't surprise me at this point.

And I don't think Square intended for it to be used that way, especially because of the distinction they provided.

I think SE intended the page to be used as we have used it. It's only people like you who attempt to twist it into something incomprehensible just so you don't have to acknowledge what it says.

Anyway...sorry I didn't respond to all of your critiques.

I'm sure it would have been entertaining.

But there is honestly no way I have the time to respond to each of your posts individually, and I know any response I give will be met with several responses almost immediately. This is why I highly doubt any Clerith supporter will ever have a fighting chance here.

It clearly has nothing to do with having an argument so weak a toddler could overpower it right?

I'm in no way saying this is a Cloti forum, it just coincidentally happens to have several pro-Cloti members that are extremely vocal and knowledgeable.

Where you are just vocal.

That's not anyone's fault, but a simple fact. For anyone who cares, I've recently joined a few Cloud x Aerith forums and will probably post on them from now on.

They don't care if you can think over there. In fact the less the better.

I know some of you might view this as an easy way to escape this debate, but I truly don't have a fighting chance

You never did. No one of your position does.

considering how outnumbered I am and the lack of time I have to construct adequate responses. I recently graduated from college and I'm in the process of getting my life in order. Debating on online forums should be the last thing on my list of things to do.

A grad? And here I was hoping (for your sake) that you were like 13 or something.

I bid you all farewell and I hope I've given you more insight into why some still feel Clerith is the true couple of Final Fantasy VII.

Oh this has been a treat.

I might return some day, and I'll probably come back to see if any Clerith supporters have gotten up the courage to debate you guys.

I doubt it.

Have fun and don't rip apart my post too much, OK?

Would never dream of it.

 

[Danseru-kun]

To not to stress you too much, I'll be giving minimal answers as much as possible.

But as evidenced by how many pages this thread has already accumulated, this is a never-ending debate and both sides will probably never see eye-to-eye. If I don't stop debating soon, I feel as though I'll never be able to stop! Anyway...here I go!

The thing is though, almost all the recent posts are not in your favor and you didn't really address the rebuttals. Meaning, you didn't prove your claims nor refute our arguments. Even if you don't give up, the sides in this debate are not equal. One is stronger and it's not by numbers.

It has always been up to each gamer to decide who Cloud loves more, which makes this debate a matter of opinion.

Love triangles doesn't need two way arrows all the time. Look at Quistis->SquallxRinoa, Naruto->Sakura->Sasuke->Naruto, Hotohori->MiyakaxTamahome, Clayton->JanexTarzan etc. Before you can debate on who Cloud loves more you need to prove that he loved both. You haven't proven that he loves Aerith yet, so the "love more" debate is nonexistent.

There is firm evidence to support both sides, but depending on your personal preference, the evidence each side presents may or may not seem convincing.

Problem is though, you need to prove that Cloti evidence is not convincing not based on your opinion but based on facts presented by SE.

But in the last few weeks, after deciding to see what others thought online, I now realize there are numerous people who feel the exact opposite. Funny how people can play the same game and come away with two totally different perspectives. But I think that's the way Square always intended for it to play out between those who played the game.

I haven't played the game so I actually had no emotional attachment to any pairing for many years. I had come to the conclusion that Cloti is canon without shipping them.

The importance of this page seems to be over inflated; but I can understand why considering how long this debate has been raging.

It's not just one page. It's Tifa's profile, Cloud's profile, story summary, impressive scenes, Dengeki profiles, Crisis Core Tifa profile, Reunion Files, Case of Tifa, Dissidia's "Words aren't the only way" line, interview about KHII, and the OG of course. But hey, you can fit them all in one page if you reduce the font size into .05 I think.

the Ultimania made sure to point out that the pairing of Cloud and Tifa is an optional romance depending on which Highwind scene occurs.

The For the One I Love page didn't make a distinction. It said that Cloud and Tifa exchanged romantic feelings in the Highwind whereas the date is said to have happened with four different candidates. Why specify that the date is open ended but not with the HW scene? Also, SE listed all romantic couples at the top, and differentiated friends at the bottom. If Cloud and Tifa were just friends, they would be listed below instead.

But how does Cloud's love for Tifa take away from his love for Aerith?
Hasn't the story of FFVII always been about a man who loves two women?
How does the Highwind scene prove Cloud loves Tifa more than Aerith?
Did Cloud's love for Aerith simply disappear after this scene takes place?

The Utimania page has nothing to say about Aerith. Nothing at all. You can make your theories but you will never be able to give a canon source on what Cloud feels about Aerith that time.

Also, if you take the fact that all the canon couples were included on this one page of the Ultimania, and use that as proof Cloti is canon because the page is discussing "romantic love," (omitting the picture of Aerith and Cloud because the caption doesn't specifically mention Aerith's name, even though it's obvious what Square was trying to do by including this picture on the page) --

That's your double standard there. You think a picture with a caption making no specification on who the canon date is with can prove that Aerith is a valid love interest for Cloud while the picture of the High Affection HW scene (without mention of the Low affection scene) with a caption of communicated romantic feelings is not enough to prove that Cloud loves Tifa.

If anything, it appears as if Tifa and Cloud have a complicated and sometimes hostile friendship with one another.

Give me quotes from AC and Case of Tifa showing this hostile friendship.

But Cloud's guilt and remorse seem directly linked, in my opinion, to his never-ending infatuation, love and quest to be with Aerith in the Promise Land.

Somebody give him/her the quote that his Promised Land has nothing to do with a romantic love for Aerith but has to do with his family, friends and healing.

In real life, someone can love two people simultaneously, which is the very point I think Square was trying to make through establishing a love triangle in Final Fantasy VII. Given the very nature of Cloud, and his quest to find out who he truly is and discover his true feelings, it makes perfect sense that Square would present him with two equally valid love interests.

Two love interests are different from two potential love interests or two women who love him.

Final Fantasy VII has always been a story that revolves around a love triangle and Cloud's struggle to comes to terms with it.

FFVII is about a weak man who despite all his shortcomings, overcame grief and saved the world with the help of his friends, living and dead alike. FFVII also has a theme about every life being part of one planet. Anyone can enjoy FFVII without seeing romance in it at all.

Establishing Cloud's obvious love for Tifa (in the high affection scene) does not take away from his love for Aerith, nor does it prove he loves Tifa more than Aerith. All it proves is something we basically already knew.

The problem is though, Cleriths are saying that his love for Aerith makes Cloti dysfunctional. This is when your inconsistency comes. You say he can love both equally but then one pair is the true intended pair of the compilation and the other is not the OTP because it's not functional. Then you say it's open ended.

Here's the problem: you debate opinions and want us to do the same. In debating opinions, there is a never ending debate. No, we don't do that. We debate facts which you don't accept and your defense mechanism is to claim that the debate is about opinions and say that it will never end when you cannot find a way to respond anymore.

Their romance is based on an optional scene. Why did Square make sure to include this important distinction? Because Final Fantasy VII revolves around a love triangle.

A distinction Square was happy to give us.

Where is the distinction in the page? Can you give it to us? 8 quotes made no distinction of the low affection and the high affection. 8 quotes from profiles, story summaries, impressive moments say these three things:

1. They exchanged feelings with high affection
2. It's mutual
3. It's a feeling of desire/wanting another

Give us any source that says that they exchanged low feelings.

Anyway...sorry I didn't respond to all of your critiques. But there is honestly no way I have the time to respond to each of your posts individually, and I know any response I give will be met with several responses almost immediately. This is why I highly doubt any Clerith supporter will ever have a fighting chance here.

There were a few Cleriths before here, and I have to say the numbers were not far off in the beginning of the debate. But in the end, it's not the numbers that matter, it's the strengths of the arguments. You can be alone but can still win. As for now, you, along with many Cleriths failed to answer rebuttals and had left, some bitterly.

I know some of you might view this as an easy way to escape this debate, but I truly don't have a fighting chance considering how outnumbered I am and the lack of time I have to construct adequate responses.

I TOLD YOU THAT YOU CAN DEBATE ONE PERSON SO YOU WON'T FEEL OUTNUMBERED. We actually can wait if if you want to take time to write your response, that's why this thread had no post for about a month before you came. That's how patient we are.

I bid you all farewell and I hope I've given you more insight into why some still feel Clerith is the true couple of Final Fantasy VII. I might return some day, and I'll probably come back to see if any Clerith supporters have gotten up the courage to debate you guys.

Have fun and don't rip apart my post too much, OK?

I just did. TLS LTD people are like piranhas. Avoid this part of the river if you don't want to be ripped to pieces.

When you ask for a debate, this is the consequence. Exiting like this might be rude or frustrating to people, but in the end, the failure to address multiple arguments takes the toll on your side, not the on other.

 

[Master Bates]

Spoiler: almost ryu-level post

I wonder if people really do understand the point of it? I do feel a huge sense of Clerith hints are played out, completely. Here’s my take on it:

Let’s start with where Final Fantasy VII ended off. Cloud and co. defeated Sephiroth and the planet was being attacked by Meteor. Cloud has this vision of a woman’s hand (Aerith’s hand) reaching out to him. He knows in his heart that it is Aerith, and so he reaches back, excited to see her. In reality, Aerith was leading him to Tifa’s hand to protect him from imminent death. Before they plummet to the center of the planet and what would be their demise, Cloud tells Tifa that he can “find her there.” At the Promised Land, and that he was going to look for her (Aerith.)

As the Lifestream spurts out of the planet to stop Meteor, it is realized that it is the cause of Aerith gathering all the consciousness within the planet. Before the scene finishes, we see an image of Aerith, and then the credits roll.

Two years pass. We have questions unanswered: What became of AVALANCHE afterwards? Did Cloud ever go on his search for Aerith? And if you watched the 500 years epilogue, how did Nanaki find his mate?

Advent Children was meant to answer at least the first two. Cloud has fallen into this trap of depression. He has placed himself at fault for everything that happened to two people whom he cherished with all his heart. They made him stronger, and yet, he could do nothing when they met their fate. Cloud was afraid of being happy, because he could lose it all again. There is no denying that Cloud was indeed content with his situation, but there is still the fact that Aerith lingered in his heart, that she consumed his thoughts.

Cloud would stay at Aerith’s church. He found some sort of comfort there, because he could feel closer to her. Completely normal behavior for someone who is mourning the loss of a loved one. He was coping the best way he knew how; all alone. Cloud had been all alone most of his life, and when he became close to people, terrible things happened. He didn’t want to be the cause of another loved one’s demise.

Then Cloud meets Denzel. He is completely convinced that Aerith brought this little boy to him. That Denzel was like his and Aerith’s child, and that Cloud needed to protect him. He did what he knew to do best, and that was to take him back to 7th Heaven. He couldn’t keep the child at the church, and Cloud didn’t know the first thing about caring for a child. Tifa had cared for him when he was sick, so it would be perfectly logical to send the child to her who had experience with children already (Marlene).

If you ask me, there is a huge sense of Tifa being extremely insensitive to Cloud’s pain and his way of thinking. The two have little to no communication between the two of them, and when they do, Tifa takes on a much more motherly role over him. He’s afraid to tell her things that no one should have to be afraid to tell someone. He’s awkward and even talks to Tifa like he’s in need of her permission for things. He talk to her like he’s a child and she’s the adult. It’s very strange. Tifa even treats Cloud like a child. She often scolds him and tells him he’s wrong. When he tells Tifa that he thinks Aerith brought Denzel to him, Tifa “corrects” him and says she brought him to the both of them, to which Cloud doesn’t respond (iirc).

She even gives him an ultimatum, which, in this situation, is extremely selfish. “Which is it? A memory or us?” To refer to a cherished individual as a mere memory is just wretched in my honest opinion. Why is he not allowed to continue to love his lost mage and still be a part of their family? That’s almost like marrying a widow (if you indeed believe Cloud and Aerith had a romantic relationship) and then telling him to completely forget about his first wife, whom he would STILL be with had they not died. It’s just terrible.

Throughout the movie, Tifa is very forceful on Cloud to get better, whereas Aerith merely encourages him to realize that life goes on, she is still by his side, and he isn’t at fault for anything that happened. Tifa just doesn’t get it. “Look at you, you think you’ve got it so damn hard!” That’s not what he’s upset about! He’s in a state of mourning and fear! Losing loved ones is hard! Of course you want him to move on, that’s understandable, but forcing him to put a smile on his face won’t be what gets him back on his feet. Healing takes time, and longer for some.

I think Advent Children really does show you just how incompatible Cloud and Tifa really are. They have little to no communication and both think the other is a totally different person. They know next to nothing about each other, and Tifa has no idea how to handle Cloud when he’s at his worst. Ever since the promise at the well, she has forced him into a role that he wasn’t ready for.

Eventually, Cloud starts to crawl his way back up to some form of contentment. He’s hesitant, but his visions of Aerith help encourage him. The children in danger that he cares about are also a part of that. He is beaten, still a weak-willed man scared of failure. So scared, in fact, that his actions are shaky and unstable. He’s so unsure of himself.

Soon, he builds up the courage to fight. You know why? Because of Aerith’s words of encouragement and even her slight teasing of his self-blame. “Dilly dally shilly shally! Isn’t it time you did the forgiving?” She never blamed him for her death. Not even once. The fact that she found he was being silly is probably what made him realize just how much she meant those words. He had been forgiven, and now the only person’s forgiveness he still needed was his own.

He charges on to finish old business, defeat this monster-man who had actually been to blame for all the sadness he and his comrades and fallen loved ones had had to endure. He was ready to end it all, build a bridge and move on. Though he is defeated unexpectedly (shot by Loz and Yazoo), it is not his time to leave the planet.

And where does he wake up? In his Promised Land, which is in Aerith’s church, which is also Aerith’s Promised Land. This is the place that has always offered him comfort, healing, serenity, and warmth. It only makes sense that her church would be his paradise. And when he wakes in his paradise, all those who adore him are there waiting for him, including Aerith and Zack. He has just seen two ghosts, and his face lights up. Even though they are gone, they are still there for him during his high moments, his low moments, and all in between. He wasn’t alone and he never would be. He’s finally forgiven himself.

Advent Children is a movie about forgiveness, moving on, life after death, and knowing that just because we have lost someone very dear, they continue to live on within our hearts. The ones we love will never die so long as we hold them close to our hearts. That is what Advent Children is about. IMHO, it’s telling us the Aerith and Cloud can NEVER be separated. She continues to live on in his heart, in his very soul. They share the same Promised Land, the same world.

What gets me about Cloti’s is that they always (at least, a great deal of them) claim Cloud is such an asshole to Tifa, so why do you fight so hard that they are the canon coupling? I just don’t get it. Why would you think that they’re meant to be? It’s not even about whether Tifa is good for Cloud, but is Cloud good for Tifa? He doesn’t know how to handle her and her worst, either. He doesn’t know her, either. Tifa needs a protector to fit into her princess desires. She needs a knight in shining armor who can make her laugh and remind her that she has no reason to be afraid to share her feelings. She needs someone like Zack. Zack and Tifa would be such a great match, they really would. It breaks my heart that so many just can’t seem to see that.

Oh essay. Why do I find you familiar and why do I feel a sense of incredibility? Oh yeah, lol that one Ava posted on the 'rant' thread some time ago... from the obvious Tifa-hater.

*continues reading more*

edit:
Oh, damn.

I firmly believe Squaresoft purposely included a love triangle in Final Fantasy VII for a reason. Square wanted a game revolved around a protagonist that was torn between a love for two women. Throughout Final Fantasy VII, Square gave us examples that showed Cloud loved both Aerith and Tifa -- hence a love triangle. It has always been up to each gamer to decide who Cloud loves more, which makes this debate a matter of opinion.

Uhmmm... how 'bout no? Cloud's mind does not revolve around romance during the OG. He was more concerned about his self.

 

[Wolfmania]

FFVII's Compilation revolving around romance? FFVII revolving around a Love Triangle? A fucking love triangle?



No. No nonononononono.

Just no.

Sorry, among all the things that can bring out the inner asshole in me, it's people downplaying Cloud's character as if he revolved around a fucking love triangle.
FFVII DOES NOT revolve on that. Cloud's character DOES NOT revolve around love. That is way past his central theme. And this isn't even a matter of interpretation, it's objective fact.

The most important relationship Cloud's character posseses IS NOT one of love, ok? FFVII, and by extention Cloud's character, are all about the journey to finding one's true self when you are lost.

Self-discovery and self-analyzation, the story of how a a troubled kid restored himself from the brink after his mind wanted to collapse, with the help of his friends, and through sheer force of will, defeated the most powerful being in his universe and saved the world, became a hero, etc...
Moving past his grief and living on, breaking from the puppet persona, proving to Sephiroth that he is more than an empty puppet with no will that he controls. THAT's what Cloud is all about. Overcoming your troubled psyche, your illusions and projections to become something more and live on.

Love isn't even close to an integral theme of his character. I'd say family would be the second theme, but that's just me. The fact he loves Tifa is a sub-plot point. As is his relationship with Aerith and all his friends and family.

Sorry if I'm hostile towards you...but that is just dead wrong, and I hate how Clerith's twist the compilation like that.

Ok, I'm done ranting. Don't mind me.

 

[Unlucky]

This is also one of my observations of some debaters of the LTD, in and outside of this forum. FFVII is a lot more than a love triangle, it's not even a story about romance. If anything, the 'love triangle' as some describe, ie Cloud's relationship with Aerith and Tifa, is but an integral portion of his character and the storyline. But the story itself DOES NOT revolve around that.

The moment people assume or believe that FFVII is mainly about romance, everything else will only make sense to them if understood from that aspect. Like for example, Cloud's decision to stay in Aerith's church instead of confiding to his family about his pressing problem. Call Advent Children one stinky pile of shit of a movie, but insofar as portraying Cloud's depression, SE was accurate on that one. Seeking comfort from your family is the most sensible thing to do, but Cloud, being depressed, chose to do otherwise-- and this is actually a decision some depressed people do in real life. His decision to stay in Aerith's church is to isolate himself, to seek forgiveness from the person he felt he wronged, to die alone. It's about his depression and guilt.

Now I've read arguments claiming Cloud chose to do so to reunite with Aerith, to express his longing for her love, and to stay away from the nagging bitch that is Tifa because they are not compatible whatsoever. Because you know, FFVII's message is about lurv and shit, not about depression or family or finding yourself.

PLEASE. FFVII is not about one man's sappy struggle about true love. It's much deeper than that.

I'm not saying that above argument is yours, Blank, but for you to be able to have a good debate here, at least you have to come in terms with folks here that FFVII is so much more than being about the LTD.

 

[Fairheartstrife]

I must have played the wrong game. As far as I knew the 'love story' of FFVII was so irrelevant they made it a mini-side-game. I could have sworn FFVII was about rebelling against a Planet sucking evil corp. that was hell bent on world dominaaaaaaaation... I really do learn something new every day.

PLEASE. FFVII is not about one man's sappy struggle about true love. It's much deeper than that.

WRONG. FFVII is clearly about Sephy-poo's struggle to find true love with Cloud/Angeal/Jenova (player's kink of choice). It's all about the man in black, baby. <3

FFVII's message is about lurv and shit, not about depression or family or finding yourself.

Thank you. That actually sums up compilation very nicely.

 

[Ryushikaze]

I firmly believe Squaresoft purposely included a love triangle in Final Fantasy VII for a reason. Square wanted a game revolved around a protagonist that was torn between a love for two women. Throughout Final Fantasy VII, Square gave us examples that showed Cloud loved both Aerith and Tifa -- hence a love triangle. It has always been up to each gamer to decide who Cloud loves more, which makes this debate a matter of opinion.

In order of sentences, Yes, No, No, and very no.
Yes, they put it in for a reason. No, it was not to have someone torn between two women. It was so Cloud would waver between them, yes, but the dating mechanics and the four people it can influence are all part of an INCREDIBLY clever red herring that sets you up for the whammies that start dropping left and right near the end of disc 1. FF7 is not meant to be fully understood at first, and they use the whole 'two women interested in Cloud' angle to keep you distracted, from piecing stuff together too early.
And no, there's not really evidence that Cloud romantically loved Aerith, nor does a love triangle require him to do so.
FFIV has a love triangle, and two of its points are already in a relationship, with the third simply pining for the women in the relationship.

But for the sake of the compilation, there has to be one answer. But I honestly don't think Square has given us an answer and in many ways, I feel as though the answer is that Cloud loves both Aerith and Tifa in different ways and for different reasons. There is firm evidence to support both sides, but depending on your personal preference, the evidence each side presents may or may not seem convincing.

True enough, but it helps if the evidence one presents actually fits the established narrative. Quite a lot of C/A 'evidence' outright contradicts the basic narrative, and simply casts several characters in an unusually negative light, such as Tifa being 'selfish' and the memory line being seen as an Ultimatum to Cloud about Aerith, when such a thing makes no goddamn sense at all.

While I played the game growing up as a teenager, I always felt Cloud loved Aerith in a romantic way, and that his feelings for Tifa were of a strong love between two friends. I've cited numerous scenes, dialogue and reasons that suggests this to me.

Have you? I don't recall seeing those cited here. Did I miss a post?

But in the last few weeks, after deciding to see what others thought online, I now realize there are numerous people who feel the exact opposite. Funny how people can play the same game and come away with two totally different perspectives. But I think that's the way Square always intended for it to play out between those who played the game.

I disagree. There was a definite story to tell, and the dating game was a red herring in it. If Cloud's romance is vague, it's not due to deliberate coyness, but apathy. Unlike 8, the romance is entirely ancillary to 7.

I don't believe that one single page in the Ultimania proves Square officially believes Cloti is canon. It just doesn't add up to me. If they truly wanted to come out with an official position, I don't think they would have chosen to do it so ambiguously on one single page (a page, I might add, that's in Japanese and could easily be missed by millions of Final Fantasy VII fans). If they were to make such a bold declaration, I believe they would have done it differently and probably through a different platform. The importance of this page seems to be over inflated; but I can understand why considering how long this debate has been raging.

Firstly, why do you think there needs to be a single 'press release' announcement on this subject? There's not one for FFIII, FFIV, FFVI, FFVIII, FFIX, or FFX, who are all on that page as well.
Secondly, S-E is Japanese, and, surprise surprise, are largely nationalistic in their scope, just as a lot of English speaking companies are. That it's in Japanese lessens its importance not one iota. This particular argument feels really cheap, since it IS just special pleading. Many a Clerith has tried to dismiss this page in this way while using other Japan only sources as pro C/A.
Thirdly, the declaration is hardly bold. It's saying 'Yes, these two characters confirmed their love for each other on this night, just as a significant portion of the fandom had already realized.' By your argument, though, we can't say R!=U because the information that lets us determine that was only revealed in a Japanese only Ultimania.
Fourthly, we have a lot more than just this one page. Scale back a moment, please, and realize that 'This one thing doesn't prove' is not going to help you when we have a bigass pile, of which this is just the most recent and one of the most straightforward.
We have EIGHT instances of this phrase or variations of it relating to this scene, including on p232 which you would claim contradicts this page. S-E is very consistent that Cloud and Tifa realized and confirmed their mutual feelings at the end of FFVII.

I truly believe if you asked Square about the page personally, they would be shocked to find out so much hoopla has been made over it. I don't think they ever intended for this page to be used as official evidence to declare that Cloti is canon. But let's examine the page in question for the sake of argument.

To the first sentence, I'd agree. But I'd say that they'd be shocked because people still weren't seeing the obvious.

All of the scenes in the Ultimania portraying the other canon couples are not optional scenes. So although the page in question is showing romantic couples of the Final Fantasy series, the Ultimania made sure to point out that the pairing of Cloud and Tifa is an optional romance depending on which Highwind scene occurs.

They did no such thing, and at this point, I KNOW you are reciting talking points, Child.

Why would Square point out this distinction if it wasn't a valid distinction? I'll tell you why: because it is a valid distinction. It's a valid distinction because Final Fantasy VII is the story revolving around a love triangle. Square wanted to make sure readers understood that although the other Final Fantasy couples are not optional, Tifa and Cloud are, in fact, an optional romantic couple.

Now just because Tifa and Cloud are an optional romantic couple does not mean they shouldn't be included on a page talking about romantic couples&#8230;but it does warrant a distinction, a distinction Sqaure provided.

There was absolutely no distinction provided. It was 'Cloud and Tifa do this thing. On six other occasions, it was 'Cloud and Tifa do this thing.' Period, end of. That they note in a few place that this thing is only done under certain conditions does not change them repeatedly stating 'Cloud and Tifa do this.'

But here's my real problem with using this as evidence that Cloti is canon. Most everyone would agree that Cloud loves Tifa. This page is simply stating what we already knew based on the high affection scene.

But how does Cloud's love for Tifa take away from his love for Aerith?
Hasn't the story of FFVII always been about a man who loves two women?

It doesn't, and no, it has never been that. The story of FF7 is about a young boy who leaves town to be a hero, in part to impress the girl he's had a crush on since he was 8 or even earlier, doesn't manage to get into a supersoldier program, feels he's a failure, hides his identity when he goes home, loses his hometown to the merciless slaughter of one he has once considered his hero, defeats his hero, is expirimented on, and then loses and reconstructs his mind. It's the story of him finding out who he actually is.
The bits with Aerith hitting on him are, again, a red herring, but also a mirror of his self identity arc.

How does the Highwind scene prove Cloud loves Tifa more than Aerith?
Did Cloud's love for Aerith simply disappear after this scene takes place?

Here is another problem. You are assuming Cloud loves Aerith romantically, without evidence. Even IF Cloud loves Aerith, it's not up to us to prove Cloud loves Tifa more than Aerith, it's up to you to prove how much he loved Aerith, if at all.

These questions have always been at the very crux of this debate,

Having been in it for a decade, fuck no they haven't. The question was simply 'Which of the two or possibly four romantic interests and Barret did Cloud 'choose?' Case of Tifa makes that clear.

and have yet to officially be answered by Square. All Square officially said was that Cloud loves Tifa in the optional high affection Highwind scene.

Actually, they didn't say 'in the optional high affection highwind scene.' They just said he does it. But note, also, that ALL S-E has ever said is that Cloud loves Tifa. While the absence of evidence is not automatically the evidence of absence, the absence here is still telling.

So in my mind, all Square did was confirm what we already knew: that Cloud loves Tifa. Square did not say, however, that Cloud doesn't have a separate love for Aerith -- a love that is clearly established throughout the game and is at the very core of the love triangle.

Then you had best get to rationally and empirically demonstrating that love, because you are literally asking us to prove a negative if you want us to prove Cloud didn't romantically love Aerith, and that is a no go.
Unless you want to give me that ten million dollars you owe me.

In real life, someone can love two people simultaneously, which is the very point I think Square was trying to make through establishing a love triangle in Final Fantasy VII.

Not the way they did it, no. Well, not in Cloud's oblivious case anyways. Maybe Aerith's, with her part in the triangle subplot, but Cloud was a clueless water buffallo though basically the whole first disc's romance shennanigans.
You'd be better off looking at VI for 'two loves.'

Given the very nature of Cloud, and his quest to find out who he truly is and discover his true feelings, it makes perfect sense that Square would present him with two equally valid love interests.

They gave him four. One of them is a man. Also, you bring up Cloud finding out who he is and his true feelings. There's a character who features QUITE heavily in both of those things, and it's Tifa, not Aerith. Aerith does not so much as blip onto radar during the sequence where we meet the true Cloud and learn his motivations.

Also, if you take the fact that all the canon couples were included on this one page of the Ultimania, and use that as proof Cloti is canon because the page is discussing "romantic love," (omitting the picture of Aerith and Cloud because the caption doesn't specifically mention Aerith's name, even though it's obvious what Square was trying to do by including this picture on the page) -- my response would be this is hardly different than claiming the official artwork as a valid argument. All the official artwork produced for FFVIII, FFIX and FFX show the canon couples together romantically.

You are wrong. The official Amano art for FF8, 9, and 10 does show the couples who happen to be canon, but he also draws Squall and Selphie together, Yuna and Brother, Yuna and Seymour, etc. The man does not draw 'the canon couples. In fact, it was not until 17 years after FFIV that he drew Cecil and Rosa in an artwork together. He still has not, AFAIK, drawn Locke and Celes, though he has drawn Sabin/ Mash and Celes. Amano art is a complete nonstarter.

Further, the subject of the page is romantic declarations of love. It's not that Cloud and Tifa are pictured that's the evidence. It's THE TEXT that says THEY MUTUALLY CONFIRMED THEIR FEELINGS that's the evidence. All the date picture says is that one of four people will show up depending on what Cloud does. It says nothing about Cloud liking the person who shows up.

The artwork for FFVII shows Aerith and Cloud together. Following the logic that all the canon couples were drawn together for the official artwork, Aerith and Cloud would clearly be the canon couple.

See above. Amano art is not an indication of canon couples, because he draws non canon couples together and oftentimes never draws canon couples. He would also tell you, straight out, his art DOES NOT DICTATE STORY, especially since he stopped being lead designer, but even before that.

This leads me to this conclusion: Square has always given mixed messages about who the canon couple is for Final Fantasy VII on purpose because the story of Final Fantasy VII revolves around a love triangle. It is a story about a man who loves two women for different reasons, and the level of love, and the kind of love he has for each woman is purely a matter of opinion and the decisions each player makes during the game. The page in the Ultimania is simply more evidence that Square has always given us mixed messages, especially when they provided a distinction between Cloud, Tifa and the rest of the Final Fantasy couples included on that page.

Your conclusion, based upon false premises and a poor understanding of the facts, is incorrect. Square isn't giving us mixed signals, not are they 'making a distinction' for Cloud on the FTOIL page.

In many ways, I feel as though the low affection Highwind scene is more accurate judging by the relationship shown between Cloud and Tifa in Advent Children. I just can't help but feel that the relationship shown in Advent Children is anything but romantic.

Then you have never been in a long term mature relationship. Shit is not always roses and rainbow farts.

Barret is also apart of Cloud and Tifa's family,

Almost made it the whole post before this PRATT came out. No, he's not. He does not consider himself part of it, nor do Cloud and Tifa, nor does Square.
Also, Apart and A Part ARE NOT THE SAME.

and nowhere does it show any intimate scenes between Tifa and Cloud. If anything, it appears as if Tifa and Cloud have a complicated and sometimes hostile friendship with one another.

Complicated, yes, Cloud's got a goddamn fatal wasting disease and has exiled himself in a form of penance because he feels guilty about how happy his family makes him and how he was useless to help the child they adopted when it really mattered. Hostile, fuck no. Tifa told Cloud exactly what he needed to hear when he needed to hear it.

Also in Advent Children, Cloud's feelings toward Aerith are shown to be of guilt and remorse. But I also think they are feelings of love, and a desire for this love to continue in the Promise Land.

You will now provide concrete evidence for this claim immediately.

In numerous material that Square has released since Final Fantasy VII, it shows Cloud searching for the Promise Land due to his guilt and desire for forgiveness.

No, no it does not. Please, PROVIDE EVIDENCE. Cite these 'numerous material.' I insist. I suggest you do so before I demand.

But Cloud's guilt and remorse seem directly linked, in my opinion, to his never-ending infatuation, love and quest to be with Aerith in the Promise Land.

Opinions are like assholes, kid. Everyone has them, and they're typically shitty.
'In My opinion' means nothing. Why, because you had not established, in the slightest, there is ANY infatuation, love, OR quest, much less a never-ending one.

Final Fantasy VII has always been a story that revolves around a love triangle

No. No. No. No. No. No. No.
It has not been that AT ALL. That is what you have conceived of it as, but that is not what it is.

and Cloud's struggle to comes to terms with it. Establishing Cloud's obvious love for Tifa (in the high affection scene) does not take away from his love for Aerith, nor does it prove he loves Tifa more than Aerith. All it proves is something we basically already knew.

You've said this already. But you know what you haven't done? Established a love for Aerith.
Heck, this entire time, you've been doing exactly what I complain about. You ASSUME the love for Aerith as a given and proceed from there. You are literally assuming your desired conclusion. DON'T DO THAT.

Furthermore, Square made sure to provide a distinction in the Ultimania that points out that the romantic couple of Tifa and Cloud is different from all the other romantic couples shown on the same page. How is the couple of Cloud and Tifa different from the other couples?

Since you phrased that like a question, no, they didn't.

Their romance is based on an optional scene. Why did Square make sure to include this important distinction? Because Final Fantasy VII revolves around a love triangle.

No, it's because they take notice of variable scenes, even when there's a canon outcome. They take notice of Yuffie and Vincent joining or not, even though them joining is what officially happened. They also don't 'include this distinction,' even remotely, 7/8 of the time they mention Cloud and Tifa confirm feelings at the end of FFVII. And the 8th only gets mention off in a sidebar that actually just says 'If the degree of affection is high, emotions will be strong, otherwise not so much' I paraphrase, of course.

Omitting Tifa and Cloud from a page discussing Final Fantasy romance because the couple is based on an optional scene doesn't make sense, but does warrant a distinction. A distinction Square was happy to give us.

A distinction that doesn't mean what you want it to mean, which is not on the page, which doesn't change that Cloud and Tifa's optional scene is still the scene S-E deems as important, nor does it change that we're told time and time again with NO distinction whatsoever, that Cloud and Tifa confirmed their feelings that night.

And that's not even getting into the 'their family' 'their future' 'they belong together' quotes.

This page in the Ultimania is further evidence of the mixed messages Square has always given us because they understand that Cloud loves both women for different reasons and in different ways. It boils down to a matter of opinion and that's why this debate continues to rage on. For anyone to use this single page as the end-all-be-all in declaring which couple is canon doesn't make sense to me. And I don't think Square intended for it to be used that way, especially because of the distinction they provided.

It's not the be all end all. Even my original post didn't treat it as such. But nice strawman, kiddo.

Anyway...sorry I didn't respond to all of your critiques. But there is honestly no way I have the time to respond to each of your posts individually, and I know any response I give will be met with several responses almost immediately. This is why I highly doubt any Clerith supporter will ever have a fighting chance here. I'm in no way saying this is a Cloti forum, it just coincidentally happens to have several pro-Cloti members that are extremely vocal and knowledgeable. That's not anyone's fault, but a simple fact. For anyone who cares, I've recently joined a few Cloud x Aerith forums and will probably post on them from now on.

The reason Clerith does not have a fighting chance here is because we are armed with facts, logic, and an understanding of narrative flow and the narrative in question.
That you've decided to join the echo chamber after parroting their talking points doesn't surprise me.
Keep in mind, Kiddo, that this entire time, you haven't demonstrated any of what is, but only what you want things to be. And that's all you'll get at CxA. What you want to hear, even if it's completely illusory.

I know some of you might view this as an easy way to escape this debate, but I truly don't have a fighting chance considering how outnumbered I am and the lack of time I have to construct adequate responses. I recently graduated from college and I'm in the process of getting my life in order. Debating on online forums should be the last thing on my list of things to do.

Then why trade a forum only tangentially related with this matter for one almost entirely devoted to it?
As the saying goes 'Does not compute.'

I bid you all farewell and I hope I've given you more insight into why some still feel Clerith is the true couple of Final Fantasy VII. I might return some day, and I'll probably come back to see if any Clerith supporters have gotten up the courage to debate you guys.

You've given us insight into the mindset, but not any evidence to demonstrate that any of that mindset has validity.

Have fun and don't rip apart my post too much, OK?

It is only by ripping apart what you say that you can be shown how lacking in substance it truly is. Harsh words, but true.

You argue for Clerith entirely because you WANT Clerith to be true, not because there's substantive evidence for it, or against C/T.

 

[Tetsujin]

Final Fantasy VII is the story revolving around a love triangle

See? That's the problem with the LTD debate. The fact that people think the game revolved around this.

Because people don't pay attention to the plot and to the actual core themes. It's all about a fucking dating gimmick that doesn't even go past disc one.

 

[Fairheartstrife]

I find it very telling that to 'prove' Clerith you first have to disprove Cloti. In order for Cloud to love Aerith you have to prove he doesn't love Tifa. I have never, ever, seen a Clerith argument that wasn't built on a foundation of attempting to disprove Cloud x Tifa. And yet for Cloti, you just have to let it be. He loves Tifa. End of. There is absolutely no need to disprove he loved Aerith, because, well, there's no evidence he ever did. For Cloti to work, you just have to follow the story. No suppositions, no hidden meanings, no alternate interpretations. It's just THERE.

 

[Unlucky]

True. Also, it's funny that there is a felt need to overanalyze things and associate everything with twisted symbolism (ex. flowers during the credits mean Cloud is meeting up with her), but when it comes to Cloti evidence, not even a hint of that probing attitude could be applied ('doesn't say what feelings were exchanged'/ 'doesn't say whose sweetheart she is' arguments).

 

[Blade]

I find that a simple "No, you're wrong" would suffice. Wall'o'text is unneeded.

If this were about FFVIII...then yeah romance would be important...but this is VII...VII is about...well...the Planet, sorta...and WHAT HAS SCIENCE DONE!? and all that...

With that said, I STILL WANT A HAREM, DAMMIT!

 

[Danseru-kun]

While I do buy the flower symbolism sometimes, it will never ever be enough as an evidence to prove that Cloud's goal in life is to reunite with Aerith. It's simply an interpretation based on perspectives, not official word. For me, the flower fields symbolizes Aerith's spirit and memory in a way that she is always there, one with the planet, near Cloud and everyone else.

 

[BlankBeat]

PS: Just wanted to clarify so my post makes sense. Vendel keeps saying the story doesn't revolve around a love triangle (lol) and that Square didn't make a distinction between Cloud, Tifa and the rest of the Final Fantasy couples on the romantic love page. Although they did not make a distinction on the specific page in question, they did include a distinction on page 232. Page 232 was clearly and blatantly listed above the photo of Cloud and Tifa. This distinction points out that the Highwind scene of Cloud and Tifa is an optional scene, therefore they are an optional couple. This is a distinction that was made for no other couples but Cloud and Tifa. This distinction is important and worth noting.

Omitting Tifa and Cloud from a page discussing Final Fantasy romance because the couple is based on an optional scene doesn't make sense, but does warrant a distinction. A distinction Square gave us on page 232 (a page number that was blatantly listed above the photo of Cloud and Tifa). Just wanted to clarify I was referring to the distinction made on page 232 because Vendel didn't seem to catch that or pretended not to catch it.

Anyway. Loved reading all your responses. Just wanted to clarify!