The Love Triangle Debate thread of KNEEL BEFORE ZOD OR SUFFER HIS WRATH (ignore the opening posts at your peril) (Round 6)

[BlankBeat]

Why I'll never accept that the HA Highwind scene is canon:

1. “After stopping Hojo from going amuck, the conversation with Tifa before they rush into the Northern Crater diverges into two conditions, according to Tifa’s affection rating with Cloud. When it gets low, the conversation in the scene that they spend the night will be apathetic and ends short. Next morning in the cockpit, Tifa says “Were you listening?” and stamps on tiptoe. On the other hand, when degree gets higher, the conversation of the scene that they spend the night will have strong emotions. Next morning in the cockpit, Tifa will say “Were you watching?” and feels terribly shy”~page 198, Final Fantasy VII Ultimania Omega

2. “Another event is when the party was dismissed and after everyone left for their own places separately, Cloud and Tifa spent the night together. At that moment, according to Tifa’s affection rating with Cloud, the event of dialogues exchanged between them from dusk to dawn and Tifa’s reaction and lines when she found out that everyone might see (or hear) that circumstance will be different.”~FFVII Dismantled, page 201

3. “Deviation – Two versions of the conversation before the final battle:
Prior to the final battle, the contents of the conversation between Cloud and Tifa can change depending on the degree of Tifa’s affection. If the degree of affection is high, the contents of the two’s conversation will involve deep subject matter and strong feelings for each other. As well, the sight of the two seen by their companions the next morning will lead to an embarrassing scene for Tifa, and she blushes greatly.” ~page 232, Final Fantasy 20th Anniversary Ultimania

SE has stated over and over again that the Highwind scene has two versions. SE has never stated which version is canon. Strong feelings are expressed between Cloud and Tifa ONLY IF the affection points are high enough. Thus, it is determined by each player who Cloud loves.

Furthermore, a separate section in the 20th Anniversary Ultimania is titled, “Scenes Involving Love Other Than Romantic Love” — this section talks about love other than romantic love such as the brotherly love between Edgar and Sabin of Final Fantasy VI.

However, the Cloud x Aerith date scene is shown under the section about romantic love. There is no reason to include the Cloud x Aerith date scene under the romantic love section when they have another section specifically for non-romantic love. If SE was trying to proclaim that Cloti is canon, why is Cloud the only protagonist shown with two women on a page showing romantic couples? The answer to this should be blatantly obvious to anyone that is not a Cloti shipper.

In addition, FFVII is the only Final Fantasy on that page where both scenes in the romantic love section are said to have multiple versions that depend on affection points. Why is this? Because FFVII’s romance is based around a love triangle that is determined by player controlled affection points. Who Cloud loves is up to player interpretation.

Also, if SE said that Cloti is canon why were they not shown romantically in AC? All other Final Fantasy couples are shown romantically except Cloud x Tifa. Why is that? Maybe, just maybe, SE is being ambiguous about their relationship to continue with the love triangle? If anything, the relationship between Cloud and Tifa shown in AC seems to be a very contentious and strained one.

And just because Cloud and Tifa live together does not mean they are automatically a couple. Barret and Tifa lived together raising Marlene. Does that mean they were a couple? SE also stated that Cloud and Tifa sleep in separate rooms.

And why is Cloud living in Aerith’s church at the beginning of AC? The answer to this question depends on the viewer. I personally believe that Cloud wants to be close to Aerith, and that he hopes to reunite with her in the Promised Land because of his romantic feelings for her. This is again an example of SE leaving it up to player interpretation.

SE was purposely ambiguous throughout AC to continue with the love triangle.

There is evidence in the FFVII compilation to support both pairings. If Cloti's would stop claiming their pairing is canon the two sides could continue co-existing peacefully. I really wish a rebuttal was allowed to be posted in response to the article claiming the LTD is over.

I know I'll get a million responses attempting to rip my evidence to shreds. But this all boils down to OPINION. It is only an OPINION that the LTD is over. I highly doubt SE would choose to end the LTD on one minor page of an Ultimania that has to be translated for the majority of FFVII fans. And it's a page, I might add, that also shows a picture of Cloud x Aerith (Cloud is the only protagonist shown with two women in two variable scenes). SE could have easily put the canon Cloud x Aerith date (the Clerith date is easier to obtain and is said to have happened in the compilation) under the "Scenes Involving Love Other Than Romantic Love," but they chose not to. They chose to include the Cloud x Aerith date on the Romantic Couples page for a reason.

If you were to tell SE about this page being used to prove Cloti is canon they would probably laugh in your face, point to the picture of Cloud x Aerith, and then flip to page 232.

I'll end with some of my favorite Clerith quotes:

“Cloud was her friend, her koibito — a symbol of what was important to her, and someone to be protected.” ~Case of Lifestream: White (Koibito: lover or lifelong partners in Japanese)

“A girl with the blood of the Ancients flowing through her veins who is engraved in Cloud’s heart for the rest of his life” ~Square Enix

“…I think I’m beginning to understand. An answer from the planet…the Promised Land… I think I can meet her… there…” ~Cloud Strife

“I never blamed you. Not once. You came for me. That’s all that matters.” ~Aerith Gainsborough

“But, I’m —I mean— we’re here for you, right?” ~Cloud Strife

“But if you play Kingdom Hearts, towards the end, some of the questions about the relationship between Cloud and Aerith in VII might be answered.” ~Nomura

“Cloud see’s Aerith because her consciousness lives on inside of him.” ~Nomura

“Looks good. You are perfect for each other! Aerith’s star and Cloud’s star! They show a great future! Poor Tifa!" ~Cait Sith

“I’m your bodyguard, right?” ~Cloud Strife

Cheers!

 

[Vendel]

SE has stated over and over again that the Highwind scene has two versions.

Yes and?

SE has never stated which version is canon. Strong feelings are expressed between Cloud and Tifa ONLY IF the affection points are high enough. Thus, it is determined by each player who Cloud loves.

Except you just so happen to leave out where it tells us that C/T in fact do express "strong feelings" for each other. And if this happens only in one version of that scene? Then that is the scene which has to have happened.

There we go. Mystery solved.

Furthermore, a separate section in the 20th Anniversary Ultimania is titled, “Scenes Involving Love Other Than Romantic Love” — this section talks about love other than romantic love such as the brotherly love between Edgar and Sabin of Final Fantasy VI.

However, the Cloud x Aerith date scene is shown under the section about romantic love. There is no reason to include the Cloud x Aerith date scene under the romantic love section when they have another section specifically for non-romantic love. If SE was trying to proclaim that Cloti is canon, why is Cloud the only protagonist shown with two women on a page showing romantic couples? The answer to this should be blatantly obvious to anyone that is not a Cloti shipper.

I am still wondering where it says anything about Aerith on the FTOIL page.

In addition, FFVII is the only Final Fantasy on that page where both scenes in the romantic love section are said to have multiple versions that depend on affection points.

It says nowhere on the FTOIL page that the C/T love is based on anything like that. It says it happens. Flat out.

Why is this?

Why is what? Why do you have to literally ignore what the FTOIL page is telling you to argue against it?

Because FFVII’s romance is based around a love triangle that is determined by player controlled affection points. Who Cloud loves is up to player interpretation.

Tell us where SE has ever said that.

Also, if SE said that Cloti is canon why were they not shown romantically in AC?

What, like making out during the Bahamut fight?

All other Final Fantasy couples are shown romantically except Cloud x Tifa. Why is that? Maybe, just maybe, SE is being ambiguous about their relationship to continue with the love triangle? If anything, the relationship between Cloud and Tifa shown in AC seems to be a very contentious and strained one.

So SE wants to keep a love triangle alive that involves a dead woman?

And if there is "strain" in the movie it is because it's supposed to be a stressful situation with people dying and children kidnapped. But no none of that matters. There is strain because Cloud doesn't love Tifa right?

And just because Cloud and Tifa live together does not mean they are automatically a couple. Barret and Tifa lived together raising Marlene. Does that mean they were a couple? SE also stated that Cloud and Tifa sleep in separate rooms.

But Cloud being within 5 miles of the Church means he is "searching for Aerith" right?

And could you show us where it says Tifa is raising Marlene before AC? Also could you show is where SE says C/T sleep in different rooms as of the time of AC?

And why is Cloud living in Aerith’s church at the beginning of AC? The answer to this question depends on the viewer. I personally believe that Cloud wants to be close to Aerith, and that he hopes to reunite with her in the Promised Land because of his romantic feelings for her. This is again an example of SE leaving it up to player interpretation.

I hadn't even read this part but it looks like I nailed it above.

SE was purposely ambiguous throughout AC to continue with the love triangle.

Yes by showing Cloud having an established family unit with Tifa and two children. And by having Aerith walk into the light with Zack at the end of the movie. OF COURSE!!

I know I'll get a million responses ripping my evidence to shreds. But this all boils down to OPINION. It is only an OPINION that the LTD is over.

Yes just like it is opinion that water is wet and fire hot!

I highly doubt SE would choose to end the LTD on one minor page of an Ultimania that has to be translated for the majority of FFVII fans.

Yeah they should do something like kill one of the girls and have the guy start a life with the other one. Something dramatic like that.

 

[BlankBeat]

Except you just so happen to leave out where it tells us that C/T in fact do express "strong feelings" for each other. And if this happens only in one version of that scene? Then that is the scene which has to have happened

Tifa and Cloud express "strong feelings" only in the HA Highwind scene. Nowhere did SE say that the HA version is the canon version.

Why would SE reference page 232 above the picture of Cloud and Tifa if they wanted to definitively proclaim that the HA version is the canon version? There is absolutely no reason for the distinction provided on page 232 if SE was truly trying to proclaim that the HA version is canon.

Granted, the HA Highwind scene is a very romantic scene, so it should be included on a page discussing (possible) romanic couples. But it warrants a distinction -- a distinction SE was happy to provide on page 232. SE also provides this distinction on page 201 of FFVII Dismantled and page 198 of Final Fantasy VII Ultimania Omega.

Just because there are two versions of an event does not mean it should be omitted from a page discussing romantic couples, but it does warrant a distinction. SE has provided this distinction over and over again, which suggests to me that they want to make it clear that two versions of the Highwind scene exist and depend on how you play the game. The love triangle is up to player interpretation.

Again, there is absolutely no reason to reference a distinction provided on page 232 if SE was truly trying to proclaim that the HA version is canon.

I am still wondering where it says anything about Aerith on the FTOIL page.

Cloti's love to over emphasize the importance of the captions on this page. A picture is worth a thousand words. If you honestly don't think it was intentional that a picture of Cloud and Aerith's date was included on a page discussing romantic couples, you really need to take a step back and look at things objectively

Cloud is the only Final Fantasy protagonist shown with two women in two separate scenes. Coincidence? Doubtful.

Also, since when does the FTOIL page decide which couples are and are not canon? Why is the FTOIL page the end-all-be-all in deciding who Cloud loves? I think SE would be shocked to know that such a big deal has been made over the FTOIL page.

What, like making out during the Bahamut fight?

Virtually every Final Fantasy couple have undeniable romantic scenes except Cloud x Tifa. Most of the romantic scenes in the FFVII compilation are either variable or ambiguous. I interpret the hand reach scene at the end of FFVII to be romantic and completely pro-Clerith. I also interpret the quote, “…I think I’m beginning to understand. An answer from the planet…the Promised Land… I think I can meet her… there…," as Cloud wanting to be with Aerith. This is further confirmed (to me) when he is living in Aerith's Church at the beginning of AC.

The overall point I'm trying to make is that most of the evidence both sides use is based on interpretation and opinion. There are numerous scenes, quotes and evidence that I believe support Clerith. But I understand that others might interpret those things differently.

Why is it so offensive that I believe neither pairing has been proclaimed canon and that it is up to each player to decide who Cloud loves?

So SE wants to keep a love triangle alive that involves a dead woman?

Aerith and Cloud can be together again in the Promised Land. SE also states that Aerith's consciousness lives on inside of Cloud, which allows him to see her.

And the question is not who Cloud can be with, it is who Cloud loves. Whose to say love stops after someone dies?

Also could you show is where SE says C/T sleep in different rooms as of the time of AC?

As with most of the evidence both sides use, SE does not definitively say C/T sleep in different rooms (just like they never say Cloti is canon). But here are two quotes that suggest they don't sleep together:

"It was night and they had closed the bar. Cloud was drinking alcohol even though he rarely does. He drained his glass. Tifa thought about it before going over and filling his glass.
"Shall I join you?" There was something she wanted to talk to him about.
Cloud "I want to drink alone."
Hearing that, Tifa lost control and said, "Then drink in your room." ~Case of Tifa

Now, Tifa did not say "bedroom," nor did she say, "office" (or something similar). I interpret this as Cloud having his own room, which usually means a place to sleep. I'm sure most of you Cloti supporters will disagree with what should be common sense: room = place to sleep.

But another quote that adds evidence that Cloud has a separate room is that Marlene seems to sleep with Tifa:

"Marlene, who had always slept with Tifa, slept with her foster father Barret the night before he left. Their conversations could be heard late into the night." ~Case of Tifa

Considering that Marlene still lives with them and "always" slept with Tifa, the logical assumption would be that she still sleeps with Tifa.

When you combine these two quotes together it seems clear that Cloud and Tifa have separate rooms.

Also, here is another quote I think you should read:

"Friends were a necessity to me so that I could live on without being suppressed by the sins in my consciousness. Even if they were fellow companions that had the same wounds. Even if they were fellow companions who were burdened with the same sins. We couldn’t live without comforting each other and encouraging each other.
 Maybe you could call that family. We just had to keep the family together and do our best. Tifa thought she could get over anything while being with friends that she could call her family." ~Tifa, Case of Tifa

Obviously this is implying that friends can form a family together, just as AVALANCHE did in FFVII.

Furthermore, in Case of Tifa it says, "Barret turned round and shouted, "Take care!" His voice was a little shaky. "Put the family's strength together and keep at it!"

Which implies that this family is one of friends.

Also, you never answered this:

"A separate section in the 20th Anniversary Ultimania is titled, “Scenes Involving Love Other Than Romantic Love” — this section talks about love other than romantic love such as the brotherly love between Edgar and Sabin of Final Fantasy VI.

However, the Cloud x Aerith date scene is shown under the section about romantic love. There is no reason to include the Cloud x Aerith date scene under the romantic love section when they have another section specifically for non-romantic love. If SE was trying to proclaim that Cloti is canon, why is Cloud the only protagonist shown with two women on a page showing romantic couples? The answer to this should be blatantly obvious to anyone that is not a Cloti shipper."

My overall point is this: no official statement has been released by SE proclaiming which pairing is canon. There is tons of evidence to support BOTH pairings. Why can't we just accept that Final Fantasy VII is unique in that it incorporates a love triangle and who Cloud loves is determined by each one of us? While watching AC and playing FFVII, everything I saw points to Cloud x Aerith, and everything you saw points to Cloud x Tifa. SE has purposely been ambiguous about the who Cloud loves on purpose. They want each one of us to decide for ourselves, which is why they continue to provide evidence for both sides.

I will never understand why Cloti's cannot accept that the LTD is up to player interpretation.

 

[Danseru-kun]

Cloti's love to over emphasize the importance of the captions on this page. A picture is worth a thousand words. If you honestly don't think it was intentional that a picture of Cloud and Aerith's date was included on a page discussing romantic couples, you really need to take a step back and look at things objectively

I'm tired of repeating myself so I'm not going to answer the points already answered repeatedly for the past 100 pages or so. Just this: say, if there's a page listing all the canon couples in a franchise, and an average person would look into it, what would he assume seeing two women with the same man.

I say, it would be more accepting to say that there are two legit love interest. Yes, if that it the one being argued to me, I think it's a strong case. However, why do you make all these complicated arguments to say that neither love interest is canon because there are two women pictured with the same guy.

Two women pictured with the same guy in a page listing all canon couples means that neither is canon? Just because there are two versions of the scene means that there is no canon love interest? Even if the words used to describe the scene in the FTOIL page is the words used for every HAHW description as well as Cloud and Tifa's profiles? Even if the captions in the FTOIL is the HAHW version? If neither version is canon then why put the screencap of the HAHW page instead of just putting a neutral one?

If SE is saying that there is no canon couple, then it should have said in the FTOIL page that "Depending on Cloud's behavior, he might share or might not share romantic feelings with Tifa?" Why say the date depends on the player but single out the HAHW screenshot and put captions that they did share feelings?

I will never understand why Cloti's cannot accept that the LTD is up to player interpretation.

I don't understand why you keep on insisting that just because SE provided us with their own confirmation, it doesn't mean we cannot interpret things. All the more I don't understand why you would insist the word "interpretation." If I play FFVII without any guide and I'm a Clerith but then I was able to get the Tifa date and the HAHW scene, then is that interpretation? Is that "optional" because I would have wanted a Clerith outcome but because I'm so dumb at playing I wasn't able to get one.

Case of Tifa? Advent Children? Reunion Files? Cloud and Tifa's Profiles? Story Summaries? Does those things get affected by how I play the game or what couple I root for? Are we twisting what the creators say when they're right there?

And when is this all about Clotis? Do you think people who concluded that Cloti is canon are all Clotis? Do you think this is because shipping? No. This is about analysis of canon. I wasn't even a Cloti when I supported that this couple is canon. Also, do you know that there Cleriths as well who think that Cloti is canon or both are canon?

And you give us all those Clerith quotes. I mean, sure they're all canon quotes but if Cloud does love Aerith, does that mean he doesn't love Tifa? If you proved that Cloud loves Aerith, how exactly would that disprove all proofs for Cloti?

We know all the indications of Aerith being a very important person Cloud's life, but how exactly would all those quotes disprove all the evidences for Cloti? I mean how can you prove that FFVII being more Clerith means it becomes less Cloti? Or more Cloti means less Clerith?

 

[Vendel]

Tifa and Cloud express "strong feelings" only in the HA Highwind scene. Nowhere did SE say that the HA version is the canon version.

Why would SE reference page 232 above the picture of Cloud and Tifa if they wanted to definitively proclaim that the HA version is the canon version? There is absolutely no reason for the distinction provided on page 232 if SE was truly trying to proclaim that the HA version is canon.

I'm not sure how a guidebook telling you there are two versions of a scene overrides a different part of that guidebook telling you one version of it is what happened in the story. Normally it would be the other way around.

Granted, the HA Highwind scene is a very romantic scene, so it should be included on a page discussing (possible) romanic couples. But it warrants a distinction -- a distinction SE was happy to provide on page 232. SE also provides this distinction on page 201 of FFVII Dismantled and page 198 of Final Fantasy VII Ultimania Omega.

Again you are quoting guidebooks. They tell us several kinds of information. Game mechanics and narrative are amongst them.

Just because there are two versions of an event does not mean it should be omitted from a page discussing romantic couples, but it does warrant a distinction. SE has provided this distinction over and over again, which suggests to me that they want to make it clear that two versions of the Highwind scene exist and depend on how you play the game. The love triangle is up to player interpretation.

Or again there is a difference between game play and story.

Again, there is absolutely no reason to reference a distinction provided on page 232 if SE was truly trying to proclaim that the HA version is canon.

Unless SE in their infinite wisdom decided to actually put game play information in a guidebook along with their narrative information.

Cloti's love to over emphasize the importance of the captions on this page. A picture is worth a thousand words.

Yes, but when there are actual words one would normally read them.

Also, since when does the FTOIL page decide which couples are and are not canon? Why is the FTOIL page the end-all-be-all in deciding who Cloud loves? I think SE would be shocked to know that such a big deal has been made over the FTOIL page.

First off the page doesn't decide. It simply list. Secondly if SE were to be shocked by anything it would be the ability of shippers to ignore and twist information they don't like. But I doubt this actually surprises SE anymore.

Virtually every Final Fantasy couple have undeniable romantic scenes except Cloud x Tifa. Most of the romantic scenes in the FFVII compilation are either variable or ambiguous. I interpret the hand reach scene at the end of FFVII to be romantic and completely pro-Clerith. I also interpret the quote, “…I think I’m beginning to understand. An answer from the planet…the Promised Land… I think I can meet her… there…," as Cloud wanting to be with Aerith. This is further confirmed (to me) when he is living in Aerith's Church at the beginning of AC.

And here we have the "nothing C/T can do will ever be considered romantic. While even the vaguest C/A information is incredibly romantic" part of the argument.

Why is it so offensive that I believe neither pairing has been proclaimed canon and that it is up to each player to decide who Cloud loves?

Offensive is a strong word. But if someone enjoys a work and they see someone twisting it into something incomprehensible just to support a ship, while proclaiming that their version of events is just as valid? One might become annoyed.

Aerith and Cloud can be together again in the Promised Land. SE also states that Aerith's consciousness lives on inside of Cloud, which allows him to see her.

But SE has already described what Cloud's promised land is. It's being with his family free of guilt. With Aerith and Zack leaving in the end. So if she was gonna be with him that was her last chance.

As with most of the evidence both sides use, SE does not definitively say C/T sleep in different rooms (just like they never say Cloti is canon). But here are two quotes that suggest they don't sleep together:

"It was night and they had closed the bar. Cloud was drinking alcohol even though he rarely does. He drained his glass. Tifa thought about it before going over and filling his glass.
"Shall I join you?" There was something she wanted to talk to him about.
Cloud "I want to drink alone."
Hearing that, Tifa lost control and said, "Then drink in your room." ~Case of Tifa

The only room described as Clouds is his office.

But another quote that adds evidence that Cloud has a separate room is that Marlene seems to sleep with Tifa:

"Marlene, who had always slept with Tifa, slept with her foster father Barret the night before he left. Their conversations could be heard late into the night." ~Case of Tifa

Considering that Marlene still lives with them and "always" slept with Tifa, the logical assumption would be that she still sleeps with Tifa.

This conversation takes place two weeks after 7th heaven opens up. Before this they were sleeping wherever they could find shelter. And before that the old 7th Heaven. So by that point Marlene had "always" slept with Tifa.

But by the time ACC rolls around she shares a room with Denzel.

Also, here is another quote I think you should read:

"Friends were a necessity to me so that I could live on without being suppressed by the sins in my consciousness. Even if they were fellow companions that had the same wounds. Even if they were fellow companions who were burdened with the same sins. We couldn’t live without comforting each other and encouraging each other.
 Maybe you could call that family. We just had to keep the family together and do our best. Tifa thought she could get over anything while being with friends that she could call her family." ~Tifa, Case of Tifa

Obviously this is implying that friends can form a family together, just as AVALANCHE did in FFVII.

Furthermore, in Case of Tifa it says, "Barret turned round and shouted, "Take care!" His voice was a little shaky. "Put the family's strength together and keep at it!"

Which implies that this family is one of friends.

I wonder what part of that paragraph you quoted applies to Marlene? And later Denzel for that matter.

I also wonder why AVALANCHE is never included in quotes talking about the 7Th Heaven family?

One would almost think Tifa is reminiscing about her time with AVALANCHE as Barret is leaving. Removing himself the the equation so the 7th Heaven family unit can start.

I will never understand why Cloti's cannot accept that the LTD is up to player interpretation.

I think it is C/A shippers who can't accept that it isn't. Although if you would bother to look around I'm sure you could find plenty of information pre-AC where your friends were singing quite a different tune.

 

[Kain Strife]

Why is this debate in a form of a triangle? I see no reason whatsoever that Aerith would date Cloud, she already realized that he isn't her dead boyfriend. After that she kind of gave him a you're cute and special to me but no.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Why I'll never accept that the HA Highwind scene is canon:

1. “After stopping Hojo from going amuck, the conversation with Tifa before they rush into the Northern Crater diverges into two conditions, according to Tifa’s affection rating with Cloud. When it gets low, the conversation in the scene that they spend the night will be apathetic and ends short. Next morning in the cockpit, Tifa says “Were you listening?” and stamps on tiptoe. On the other hand, when degree gets higher, the conversation of the scene that they spend the night will have strong emotions. Next morning in the cockpit, Tifa will say “Were you watching?” and feels terribly shy”~page 198, Final Fantasy VII Ultimania Omega

And 8 sources state that the two of them shared strong emotions, in several cases, specifiying for each other. One of these is their shared keyword in the Crisis Core Ultimania.

2. “Another event is when the party was dismissed and after everyone left for their own places separately, Cloud and Tifa spent the night together. At that moment, according to Tifa’s affection rating with Cloud, the event of dialogues exchanged between them from dusk to dawn and Tifa’s reaction and lines when she found out that everyone might see (or hear) that circumstance will be different.”~FFVII Dismantled, page 201

3. “Deviation – Two versions of the conversation before the final battle:
Prior to the final battle, the contents of the conversation between Cloud and Tifa can change depending on the degree of Tifa’s affection. If the degree of affection is high, the contents of the two’s conversation will involve deep subject matter and strong feelings for each other. As well, the sight of the two seen by their companions the next morning will lead to an embarrassing scene for Tifa, and she blushes greatly.” ~page 232, Final Fantasy 20th Anniversary Ultimania

SE has stated over and over again that the Highwind scene has two versions. SE has never stated which version is canon. Strong feelings are expressed between Cloud and Tifa ONLY IF the affection points are high enough. Thus, it is determined by each player who Cloud loves.

Actually, Blank, they HAVE stated which version is canon, because they've said that Cloud and Tifa express strong feelings that night. Period, end of. If I say 'If Bob does X, Y happens, but if he doesn't, Z happens' and tell you that Y happens, and X and NotX are the only possible choices, Bob has done X.

Furthermore, a separate section in the 20th Anniversary Ultimania is titled, “Scenes Involving Love Other Than Romantic Love” this section talks about love other than romantic love such as the brotherly love between Edgar and Sabin of Final Fantasy VI.

However, the Cloud x Aerith date scene is shown under the section about romantic love. There is no reason to include the Cloud x Aerith date scene under the romantic love section when they have another section specifically for non-romantic love. If SE was trying to proclaim that Cloti is canon, why is Cloud the only protagonist shown with two women on a page showing romantic couples? The answer to this should be blatantly obvious to anyone that is not a Cloti shipper.

Both situations displayed are romantic confessions, same as with all the other scenes shown. The page itself is explicitly concerned with DISPLAYS of affection, both romantic and in the subheading, nonromantic.

In addition, FFVII is the only Final Fantasy on that page where both scenes in the romantic love section are said to have multiple versions that depend on affection points. Why is this? Because FFVII’s romance is based around a love triangle that is determined by player controlled affection points. Who Cloud loves is up to player interpretation.

Only the date is said to have multiple outcomes on the page, and that's because the choice of the date matters. Contrariwise, it is the communicating feelings which matters for the Highwind scene.

Also, if SE said that Cloti is canon why were they not shown romantically in AC? All other Final Fantasy couples are shown romantically except Cloud x Tifa.

What did Ingus and Sarah or Locke and Celes do to be 'shown romantically' that wouldn't count for C/T? We are talking about two people who decided to live with each other.

Why is that? Maybe, just maybe, SE is being ambiguous about their relationship to continue with the love triangle? If anything, the relationship between Cloud and Tifa shown in AC seems to be a very contentious and strained one.

The relationship between Cloud and EVERYONE is strained in AC because the dumbass has exiled himself from his family in a misguided attempt to protect their asses.
Come DoC and a year after that, he's back to living with Tifa. WHERE HE BELONGS.

And just because Cloud and Tifa live together does not mean they are automatically a couple. Barret and Tifa lived together raising Marlene. Does that mean they were a couple? SE also stated that Cloud and Tifa sleep in separate rooms.

No they did not. You're making things up now.
Also, Barret and Tifa were never referred to as 'belonging together,' they never formed a family together, she was never 'an important woman' to Barret, nor has Barret thought of Tifa as the mother to children under his care, even as she has thought of him as the father. Barret and Tifa do not have an explicitly stated future together.

And why is Cloud living in Aerith’s church at the beginning of AC? The answer to this question depends on the viewer. I personally believe that Cloud wants to be close to Aerith, and that he hopes to reunite with her in the Promised Land because of his romantic feelings for her. This is again an example of SE leaving it up to player interpretation.

It does not depend on the player. Cloud says, exlplicitly in the film, that what he wanted from Aerith was FORGIVENESS.

SE was purposely ambiguous throughout AC to continue with the love triangle.

There is evidence in the FFVII compilation to support both pairings. If Cloti's would stop claiming their pairing is canon the two sides could continue co-existing peacefully. I really wish a rebuttal was allowed to be posted in response to the article claiming the LTD is over.

No one's submitted a damn thing to my two year old, written over the course of 20 minutes including the Ted Koppel image piece of totty. It's not a question of 'allowed.' It's a question of 'tried.'

I know I'll get a million responses attempting to rip my evidence to shreds. But this all boils down to OPINION. It is only an OPINION that the LTD is over. I highly doubt SE would choose to end the LTD on one minor page of an Ultimania that has to be translated for the majority of FFVII fans. And it's a page, I might add, that also shows a picture of Cloud x Aerith (Cloud is the only protagonist shown with two women in two variable scenes). SE could have easily put the canon Cloud x Aerith date (the Clerith date is easier to obtain and is said to have happened in the compilation) under the "Scenes Involving Love Other Than Romantic Love," but they chose not to. They chose to include the Cloud x Aerith date on the Romantic Couples page for a reason.

Because she was trying to confess to him. He didn't get the memo.
Also, I reject your claim that this is merely an opinion. There is narrative and metanarrative evidence. We're dealing with a question of narrative, not simple preference.

If you were to tell SE about this page being used to prove Cloti is canon they would probably laugh in your face, point to the picture of Cloud x Aerith, and then flip to page 232.

Careful, your bias is showing. You know what 'SE' would probably do? Go "The fuck are you talking about? Wanna buy our latest games?"

I'll end with some of my favorite Clerith quotes:
“Cloud was her friend, her koibito — a symbol of what was important to her, and someone to be protected.” ~Case of Lifestream: White (Koibito: lover or lifelong partners in Japanese)

Lifelong partners? I'll have to add that one to 'definitions for Koibito I've never actually seen in a dictionary, ever.'
And yes, Aerith loved Cloud. No one disputes this. But Cloud was oblivious to her intentions. He cannot have been her lover, because he didn't know she was interested.
And do remember, Koibito works very well for C/T, as well. So well, in fact, that CxA spent years pretending it meant nothing until it could suddenly be used in favor of C/A, and you've had to backpedal from even that position.

“A girl with the blood of the Ancients flowing through her veins who is engraved in Cloud’s heart for the rest of his life” ~Square Enix

This refers to memory, and is easily explained by her being brutally murdered in front of him. Also engraved in Cloud's heart is his promise to Tifa.

“…I think I’m beginning to understand. An answer from the planet…the Promised Land… I think I can meet her… there…” ~Cloud Strife

Cloud then spends two years doing anything BUT look for the promised land, and instead starts a family and a business with Tifa.

“I never blamed you. Not once. You came for me. That’s all that matters.” ~Aerith Gainsborough

How's that prove anything about Cloud?

“But, I’m —I mean— we’re here for you, right?” ~Cloud Strife

"How can you feel alone? I'm here. We're all here!" Aerith has just expressed that she feels all alone. Cloud is admirably trying to cheer her up, but misses her point entirely.

“But if you play Kingdom Hearts, towards the end, some of the questions about the relationship between Cloud and Aerith in VII might be answered.” ~Nomura

What gets answered is that it takes Cid to drag Cloud's ass back to Hollow Bastion and Cloud couldn't give less of a shit about Aerith. Note this scene is stuck between two scenes displaying familial relationships.

“Cloud see’s Aerith because her consciousness lives on inside of him.” ~Nomura

So, too, he sees Zack. Also, Mako Parasite Theory FTW!

“Looks good. You are perfect for each other! Aerith’s star and Cloud’s star! They show a great future! Poor Tifa!" ~Cait Sith

Now remember that Cait Sith is explicitly unreliable in his fortunes, and that that selfsame prediction gets completely and utterly falsified at the end of the disc.

“I’m your bodyguard, right?” ~Cloud Strife

Cloud honors his promises. It's a thing with him. He also honors Zack's. ZOMFG Zloud?

Tifa and Cloud express "strong feelings" only in the HA Highwind scene. Nowhere did SE say that the HA version is the canon version.

They have said that Cloud and Tifa reveal their feelings for each other at the end of the story and as a result live together. They have a future together, they belong together, etc. etc. etc.

Why would SE reference page 232 above the picture of Cloud and Tifa if they wanted to definitively proclaim that the HA version is the canon version? There is absolutely no reason for the distinction provided on page 232 if SE was truly trying to proclaim that the HA version is canon.

Because every citation there leads to another page. There's more to the HA scene in total than that Cloud and Tifa confessed to each other, but that's what the creators were stressing.

Granted, the HA Highwind scene is a very romantic scene, so it should be included on a page discussing (possible) romanic couples. But it warrants a distinction -- a distinction SE was happy to provide on page 232. SE also provides this distinction on page 201 of FFVII Dismantled and page 198 of Final Fantasy VII Ultimania Omega.

No, it warrant further explanation, same as EVERY OTHER ENTRY on the page warranted further discussion. Know what else the scene warranted? Being one of the four most notable scenes of the game, being quoted in full at the start of the FF7 section.

Just because there are two versions of an event does not mean it should be omitted from a page discussing romantic couples, but it does warrant a distinction. SE has provided this distinction over and over again, which suggests to me that they want to make it clear that two versions of the Highwind scene exist and depend on how you play the game. The love triangle is up to player interpretation.

They also want to make it Clear that Vincent and Yuffie are optional party members.
Their entry into the party is canon, BTW. Noting an optional variance doesn't preclude one of the variances being the 'correct' one.

Again, there is absolutely no reason to reference a distinction provided on page 232 if SE was truly trying to proclaim that the HA version is canon.

Yes there is. Because they want to discuss alternate outcomes. They do it several times in the sideboards. The 'plot' as it were, is left in the main body, which, again, says C/T share their feelings for each other.

Cloti's love to over emphasize the importance of the captions on this page. A picture is worth a thousand words. If you honestly don't think it was intentional that a picture of Cloud and Aerith's date was included on a page discussing romantic couples, you really need to take a step back and look at things objectively

She said, blindly oblivious to the irony involved.
Yes, the picture is important. It tells us we are discussing the date sequence, and Aerith IS one of the four members who will 'come around' with Cloud on said sequence. Objectively, that is all the page tells us, that, and that it must be related to a confession or public display of affection, somehow. Likewise, Tifa, Yuffie, and Even Barret's to an extent fit this rule. What does the page tell us of the Highwind sequence? Cloud and Tifa confirmed mutual feelings. We are not overemphasizing the captions. We are READING them.

Cloud is the only Final Fantasy protagonist shown with two women in two separate scenes. Coincidence? Doubtful.

Cloud's the only guy to have multiple confessors and confession scenes.

Also, since when does the FTOIL page decide which couples are and are not canon? Why is the FTOIL page the end-all-be-all in deciding who Cloud loves? I think SE would be shocked to know that such a big deal has been made over the FTOIL page.

FTOIL tells us one thing. Cloud and Tifa confessed to each other in the context of romance. That's all it NEEDS to do.

Virtually every Final Fantasy couple have undeniable romantic scenes except Cloud x Tifa. Most of the romantic scenes in the FFVII compilation are either variable or ambiguous. I interpret the hand reach scene at the end of FFVII to be romantic and completely pro-Clerith. I also interpret the quote, “…I think I’m beginning to understand. An answer from the planet…the Promised Land… I think I can meet her… there…," as Cloud wanting to be with Aerith. This is further confirmed (to me) when he is living in Aerith's Church at the beginning of AC.

Thus ignoring two years of him doing anything but searching for her, telling her he wants forgiveness, moving back in with Tifa, him belonging with Tifa, having a future with her. Cherry Picking your evidence doesn't make your conclusion stronger. It makes it weaker.

The overall point I'm trying to make is that most of the evidence both sides use is based on interpretation and opinion. There are numerous scenes, quotes and evidence that I believe support Clerith. But I understand that others might interpret those things differently.

.
Cloud and Tifa formed a family TOGETHER. Have a future TOGETHER. The belong TOGETHER. None of those are interpretations, but cold hard fact. Add to that that each sees the other as the parent of the children they raise, that Tifa is someone's beloved, and that living with Tifa and the kids makes Cloud increasingly happy, and you begin to understand why they are always TOGETHER.

Why is it so offensive that I believe neither pairing has been proclaimed canon and that it is up to each player to decide who Cloud loves?

Because it's blatantly transparent wedge tactics, really. We can tell you don't really believe that, and that you offer the middle ground only because you don't want 'to lose' instead of enjoying your preferred pairing as fanon.

Aerith and Cloud can be together again in the Promised Land. SE also states that Aerith's consciousness lives on inside of Cloud, which allows him to see her.

They also state Aerith lives on in the hearts of all her friends, that Aerith lives and belongs in the cycle of souls around the planet, and that she's doing this with Zack.

And the question is not who Cloud can be with, it is who Cloud loves. Whose to say love stops after someone dies?

You need to prove there was love before she died before bringing that argument up.
We get to sit on Cloud loving a still alive Tifa. That why, for us, this has been over for many many years. You need to prove he loved Aerith romantically, and to such an extent he still loves her four years later, despite knowing her two weeks.

As with most of the evidence both sides use, SE does not definitively say C/T sleep in different rooms (just like they never say Cloti is canon). But here are two quotes that suggest they don't sleep together:

"It was night and they had closed the bar. Cloud was drinking alcohol even though he rarely does. He drained his glass. Tifa thought about it before going over and filling his glass.
"Shall I join you?" There was something she wanted to talk to him about.
Cloud "I want to drink alone."
Hearing that, Tifa lost control and said, "Then drink in your room." ~Case of Tifa

"Your" is not found in the original text, and does not have to indicate his bedroom. It could mean an office. My father sleeps wit my mother. "His room" is his office. It even has a bed in it, because it's a guest bedroom as well.

Now, Tifa did not say "bedroom," nor did she say, "office" (or something similar). I interpret this as Cloud having his own room, which usually means a place to sleep. I'm sure most of you Cloti supporters will disagree with what should be common sense: room = place to sleep.

Room- a place with four walls, a ceiling, and a floor, usually with a door and sometimes windows. Includes offices, bedrooms, living rooms, dining rooms, bathrooms, and even garages.

But another quote that adds evidence that Cloud has a separate room is that Marlene seems to sleep with Tifa:

"Marlene, who had always slept with Tifa, slept with her foster father Barret the night before he left. Their conversations could be heard late into the night." ~Case of Tifa

And then Marlene starts sleeping in her own room, this also does not preclude Cloud also being in the same bed.

Considering that Marlene still lives with them and "always" slept with Tifa, the logical assumption would be that she still sleeps with Tifa.

Except we know where she sleeps. It's the children's room where she and Denzel sleep. It has her clothes hanging on a hanger in the corner, even.

When you combine these two quotes together it seems clear that Cloud and Tifa have separate rooms.

No, it doesn't. Especially with the 'waited til he was asleep' and 'waited til morning' scene.

Also, here is another quote I think you should read:

"Friends were a necessity to me so that I could live on without being suppressed by the sins in my consciousness. Even if they were fellow companions that had the same wounds. Even if they were fellow companions who were burdened with the same sins. We couldn’t live without comforting each other and encouraging each other.
Maybe you could call that family. We just had to keep the family together and do our best. Tifa thought she could get over anything while being with friends that she could call her family." ~Tifa, Case of Tifa

Obviously this is implying that friends can form a family together, just as AVALANCHE did in FFVII.

It was, in point of fact, referring to old AVALANCHE, and not her new family, one which was started with a man for whom she has confirmed her feelings for.

Furthermore, in Case of Tifa it says, "Barret turned round and shouted, "Take care!" His voice was a little shaky. "Put the family's strength together and keep at it!"

Which implies that this family is one of friends.

You are pulling this straight out of your ass at this point. It doesn't imply anything at all about the family being of friends. It implies he's putting on a brave face, but is really torn up about leaving.

I will never understand why Cloti's cannot accept that the LTD is up to player interpretation.

Because, like so much else in the world, it isn't. It's a matter of the narrative, and the narrative has spoken, just as it has on Yuffie, Vincent, Sephiroth being in charge, Jenova being braindead, and many other things. Accept it, and move on.

 

[Kain Strife]

That was alot of points... I should just add what sounded important to me since I believe it may not have been there Ryu. Tifa's famous line " Words aren't the only way to convey your feelings. " Was reused in Dissidia 012 Duodecim as a Secret line for Tifa... No reedit, retranslation. That line was intended, and they found it important enough to be the quote chosen for her secret line. (Has this been mentioned before? This is good right?)

 

[BlankBeat]

However, why do you make all these complicated arguments to say that neither love interest is canon because there are two women pictured with the same guy.

You can argue that neither couple is canon or both couples are canon. I guess it depends on how you want to look at it.

Just because there are two versions of the scene means that there is no canon love interest?

A variable scene should not be used as evidence to proclaim a pairing is canon. SE has pointed out over and over again that the Highwind scene has two versions. Only in the HA version do Cloud and Tifa express strong feelings for each other. SE made sure to point this out on page 232, and listed it for reference above the picture of Cloud x Tifa. There is absolutely no reason to do this if they wanted to proclaim that the HA version is the canon version.

Even if the captions in the FTOIL is the HAHW version? If neither version is canon then why put the screencap of the HAHW page instead of just putting a neutral one?

The answer is simple: SE used the HA version because the FTOIL page is talking about romantic couples. Of course they are going to include the HA version on a page talking about romantic couples. But doing this requires that they also provide a disclaimer saying that two versions of this scene exist. They provided us with that distinction on page 232, and listed it for reference above the picture of Cloud x Tifa.

If SE is saying that there is no canon couple, then it should have said in the FTOIL page that "Depending on Cloud's behavior, he might share or might not share romantic feelings with Tifa?" Why say the date depends on the player but single out the HAHW screenshot and put captions that they did share feelings?

Why does it matter where they explain that two versions exist and depend on Cloud's behavior? Are you saying that just because it wasn't explained in the caption that therefore it is irrelevant?

Personally, I think listing a page for reference and then taking up far more room than a caption to explain that two versions of the Highwind scene exist is actually making a bigger deal out of it than explaining it in a silly little caption.

It doesn't really matter where SE provided the distinction. All that matters is that they provided it.

I mean how can you prove that FFVII being more Clerith means it becomes less Cloti? Or more Cloti means less Clerith?

It all boils down to opinion. I think the evidence is stronger in favor of Clerith. You feel the evidence is stronger in favor of Cloti.

But neither pairing has been proclaimed canon. SE is purposely ambiguous about who Cloud loves because they understand that this is a love triangle.

 

[Kain Strife]

I guess my point has been discussed already.

 

[Strangelove]

lifelong partners

oh god i am posting in this thread just to say that i have pissed myself laughing

shine on you crazy diamonds

 

[BlankBeat]

Actually, Blank, they HAVE stated which version is canon, because they've said that Cloud and Tifa express strong feelings that night. Period, end of.

They express strong feelings in the HA version. Nowhere is it stated that the HA version is canon. SE has repeatedly pointed out that two versions of the Highwind scene exist, and they have never proclaimed either version to be canon.

Only the date is said to have multiple outcomes on the page, and that's because the choice of the date matters. Contrariwise, it is the communicating feelings which matters for the Highwind scene.

Why does it matter where SE explains that multiple outcomes exist? Whether SE provides it in a caption or on a separate page, they provided it. Period.

We are talking about two people who decided to live with each other.

The children Tifa and Cloud are raising are due to very rare circumstances. It isn't as if they were an established couple and adopted two kids from China.

And as Tifa says, friends can form a family together. No romantic scenes are shown between Cloud and Tifa. There is nothing to suggest that they are a couple raising these children. That is only one interpretation of what is going on. And PS: just because Barret is gone does not mean he isn't still Marlene's father.

It does not depend on the player. Cloud says, exlplicitly in the film, that what he wanted from Aerith was FORGIVENESS.

Yes, he wanted forgiveness. But why did he want forgiveness? Some say because Aerith and him were such good friends. Others say because of the romantic feelings he has for Aerith. Again, it is up to interpretation.

Lifelong partners? I'll have to add that one to 'definitions for Koibito I've never actually seen in a dictionary, ever.'
And yes, Aerith loved Cloud. No one disputes this. But Cloud was oblivious to her intentions. He cannot have been her lover, because he didn't know she was interested.
And do remember, Koibito works very well for C/T, as well. So well, in fact, that CxA spent years pretending it meant nothing until it could suddenly be used in favor of C/A, and you've had to backpedal from even that position.

Oh, I know all about the word Koibito being used in favor of C/T. Although the context of Koibito is different in both cases (Cloud is never mentioned in Tifa's Koibito quote), I think this is yet another example of SE continuing on with the love triangle. By using Koibito in both cases suggests to me that SE wants each one of us to decide who Cloud loves.

This refers to memory, and is easily explained by her being brutally murdered in front of him. Also engraved in Cloud's heart is his promise to Tifa.

SE could have easily said Aerith was engraved in his "mind" -- but they chose "heart" for a reason. Using the word "heart" has obvious romantic implications.

As for the promise being engraved in Cloud's heart, too...well...of course a childhood crush will always have a special place in Cloud's heart. But I don't think a promise Cloud was strong-armed into making is very strong evidence. But again, this all boils down to opinion.

SE has yet again provided two somewhat contradictory bits of evidence. Seems to be a pattern for them. So maybe, just maybe, they are providing evidence for both pairings because they want each one of us to decide who we think Cloud loves.

Every bit of evidence both sides use is up to interpretation.

You don't think the quotes I provided suggest Clerith. I do. But I'm not going to sit here and say your interpretation is wrong because I think SE purposely leaves almost everything in regards to the LTD up to interpretation.

Noting an optional variance doesn't preclude one of the variances being the 'correct' one.

SE has never said which of the Highwind scenes is 'correct'.

FTOIL tells us one thing. Cloud and Tifa confessed to each other in the context of romance. That's all it NEEDS to do.

Yes, they confessed this in the HA version.

Where does it say that the FTOIL page is proclaiming canon couples? Again, a picture of Cloud x Aerith is also shown on this page. A picture is just as important as a caption.

Why is Cloud the only protagonist shown with two women in two variable scenes? BECAUSE FFVII INCORPORATES THE USE OF A LOVE TRIANGLE. And who Cloud loves is based on us, the player or viewer.

"Your" is not found in the original text, and does not have to indicate his bedroom. It could mean an office. My father sleeps wit my mother. "His room" is his office. It even has a bed in it, because it's a guest bedroom as well.

Room- a place with four walls, a ceiling, and a floor, usually with a door and sometimes windows. Includes offices, bedrooms, living rooms, dining rooms, bathrooms, and even garages.


And then Marlene starts sleeping in her own room, this also does not preclude Cloud also being in the same bed.


Except we know where she sleeps. It's the children's room where she and Denzel sleep. It has her clothes hanging on a hanger in the corner, even.

No, it doesn't. Especially with the 'waited til he was asleep' and 'waited til morning' scene.

It was, in point of fact, referring to old AVALANCHE, and not her new family, one which was started with a man for whom she has confirmed her feelings for.


You are pulling this straight out of your ass at this point. It doesn't imply anything at all about the family being of friends. It implies he's putting on a brave face, but is really torn up about leaving.

Tifa says that friends can form a family. That is what I believe is occurring in Advent Children because the HA Highwind scene is not confirmed as canon.

I believe Cloud has his own room. Granted, no one can say for sure if it is a bedroom or an office. But my parents always said, "go to you room" when I was in trouble growing up. They never said "bedroom". So in my opinion, it is clear that Cloud and Tifa sleep separately, especially because Marlene was sleeping with Tifa for a period of time.

Where was Cloud sleeping when Marlene was sleeping with Tifa? Probably in his "room,"...or maybe he snuck on over to Aerith's Church

 

[Dashell]

oh god i am posting in this thread just to say that i have pissed myself laughing

shine on you crazy diamonds

It can be used in the contest of husband and wife though, right? I'm going to guess that's what she was going for...

maybe...


...

and since this constantly comes up:

"Friends were a necessity to me so that I could live on without being suppressed by the sins in my consciousness. Even if they were fellow companions that had the same wounds. Even if they were fellow companions who were burdened with the same sins. We couldn’t live without comforting each other and encouraging each other.
Maybe you could call that family. We just had to keep the family together and do our best. Tifa thought she could get over anything while being with friends that she could call her family." ~Tifa, Case of Tifa

Obviously this is implying that friends can form a family together, just as AVALANCHE did in FFVII.

what are Marlene's sins? Has anyone ever answered this? and is this a bad time to bring up the mistranslation on Nomura's "Her consciousness lives on inside of him" line since he never actually said that? No one ever talks about that when this quote comes up for some reason and I'm kinda surprised by that.

 

[Kain Strife]

Let's just say someone like me was in charge of Square... and had this set idea of how a relationship with Cloud were to play out. Let's just say that you had to be careful with how you expressed the way things are little by little. Say, to not hurt the hearts of Gamers of the series since the story is laid out a certain way and may hurt them if their own conclusions became crushed...
Hey theres a game with Tifa in it, a dozen characters get secret lines, quotes from their original game.
Let's give Tifa one, we could use " Words aren't the only way to express your feelings. " Now, there are better ones we could use, but I think we should go with that specific quote. Why? To remind gamers this was an important moment, and it did happen. There was no mistranslation and it is still held in high regard today. It may even ease fans into an understanding of what happened.
Another reason that this may have been a drive for this choice is that her secret line, among others (Possibly all I dunno) can be triggered in gameplay. But her line sounds out of place, she says it right during Final Heaven, if you meet the prerequisite. Now, that line makes no sense in battle. I think it was chosen to make a subtle statement.

That is what I have to say about that.

 

[BlankBeat]

One of the biggest reasons I'm pro-Clerith is because of the progression of these three events:

1. At the end of Final Fantasy VII Aerith's hand reaches for Cloud and Cloud proclaims: “…I think I’m beginning to understand. An answer from the planet…the Promised Land… I think I can meet her… there…”

2. At the beginning of AC we see Cloud living in Aerith's Church.

3. During the ending credits of AC we see Cloud riding his motorcycle by himself. We don't see him with Tifa or at Seventh Heaven. Eventually, Cloud rides his motorcycle into an area (Promised Land??) that is surrounded by flowers that are the same color as the ones found in Aerith's Church (Nomura, Reunion Files).

As Cloud is riding his motorcycle, you see Aerith standing in a field of flowers. SE flashes back and forth between Cloud and Aerith, both surrounded by the same flowers found in Aerith's Church.

Although many Cloti's will probably disagree, this suggests (to me) that Cloud is out on the road searching to be with Aerith in the Promised Land (just as he said he would do at the end of FFVII).

By the end of AC, Cloud already knows Aerith never blamed him for what happened, yet he is still trying to search for her and be with her.

Then at the very end it cuts to Aerith's Church, which ties together the beginning and end of AC perfectly.

Yes, this is all my own interpretation. But I don't think it's that big of a stretch to believe that these three events heavily imply Clerith.

 

[Kain Strife]

He travels the world to deliver packages, he's gonna spend alot of time on the road at one time. plus the timing of that scene could be at any moment. before or after the film. those were also CGI tests for the animators, using real shots as examples to animate Cloud and his bike. and a good easter egg, showing Aerith's face for more than two seconds.

 

[BlankBeat]

He travels the world to deliver packages, he's gonna spend alot of time on the road at one time.

...and yet they show Cloud riding his motorcycle through an area that has the exact same flowers that are found in Aerith's Church, and are the exact same flowers surrounding Aerith in a "random" field (Promised Land).

There is no reason for SE to cut back and forth between Cloud and Aerith both being surrounded by the same flowers unless they were trying to hint at something and weave together the endings of Final Fantasy VII and Advent Children (in my opinion).

plus the timing of that scene could be at any moment. before or after the film.

Of course we can't say for certain, but I think common sense suggests these scenes take place AFTER the film. But again, SE is purposely being ambiguous to continue with the love triangle.

It seems very odd that SE would choose to end a film this way if they were trying to unequivocally show that Cloti is the intended pairing. There are just too many coincidences. From the back and forth shots of Cloud and Aerith both being surrounded by the same flowers found in Aerith's Church, to Cloud riding his motorcycle in an area eerily similar to the area Aerith is shown in, to Aerith's flowers being on Cloud's desk, to Aerith's Church being the very last moment of the film.

If I were trying to show Cloti is the intended pairing, I would show Cloud and Tifa playing with the children together during the ending credits. The very last thing I would put in the credits is what WAS put in the credits.

 

[Zealkin]

Blankbeat, honestly if you believe that the love triangle is not over fine.

But why are you trying to convince us so badly? Honestly, what are you trying to get out of this? You keep repeating that it's our opinion, and if that's the case shouldn't you just leave things alone?

Why does it annoy you that people have come to a different conclusion than you? Why should this even matter, if it's all just up to interpretation like you've said?

 

[Lex]

The clincher for me was this moment:

Thanks to Tifa, Cloud regains himself, and before the final battle with Sephiroth, without using words, he confirms with her that their feelings match.

That's just completely impossible to ignore, and I'm pretty damn sure it means the high affection scene is canon. Far be it for me to shut down someone's headcanon, but to me that's what CxA is - headcanon.

Final Fantasy VII isn't Mass Effect, where the choices you make affect the entire story based on your preferences. The different possibilities in VII are purely peripheral, and in the end moot because there are sequels where the choices you made in the game have no bearing (Yuffie, Vincent.... Cloud and Tifa).

 

[Danseru-kun]

I had thought that the next time I would post again in this thread is when my sensei finally answers my email I sent to her 3 months ago. Because of this revival of the thread I think I have to bug the whole linguistic faculty in our university.

Simple points for simplicity:

1. There are two versions of the HW scene, one has strong feelings, one has low feelings. SE states this because its a game and have to mention both versions just like how they always mention that there are 4 dates.
2. 8 times, in different materials, in profiles and summaries, SE has stated in many of them that Cloud and Tifa communicated feelings without mentioning the version.
3. (I need help with this Quex and Tres) but the feelings is described as "feelings of desire/wanting each other" and mutual."
4. The phrase "communicated their feelings" was never used for the LAHW version ever. Give me an example when it was used for that version.
5. Again and again, the HAHW scene is not the only proof that Cloti is canon.

You can argue that neither couple is canon or both couples are canon. I guess it depends on how you want to look at it.

Look at this, SE listed all the canon couples in a page. It's not just about the scene, it's about the characters. For example, did Ingus and Sarah have a big confession in the game? No. But they are listed because they are a couple.

A variable scene should not be used as evidence to proclaim a pairing is canon. SE has pointed out over and over again that the Highwind scene has two versions. Only in the HA version do Cloud and Tifa express strong feelings for each other. SE made sure to point this out on page 232, and listed it for reference above the picture of Cloud x Tifa. There is absolutely no reason to do this if they wanted to proclaim that the HA version is the canon version.

Then also have absolutely no reason to repeatedly state that Cloud and Tifa exchanged strong feelings in their own profiles which has been described as "feelings of desire" without IF's or deviation. Profiles tell a character's canon story. And in story summaries which I don't say summarizes a story without IF's, this is also the case.

(FFVII Ultimania Omega, pg. 15; Cloud’s profile)
最終決戦を前に一時解散を宣言し、飛空艇に残ったティファと想いを通わせる。

“Declares that the team should dissolve in the final hours before the final battle, and communicates his feelings together with Tifa, who remains behind at the airship with him.”

(FFVII Ultimania Omega, pg. 27; Tifa’s profile)
クラウドの提案で一時解散することになるが、飛空艇に残り、クラウドと想いを通わせる。

“When Cloud proposes that the group separates temporarily, she remains behind at the airship and communicates her feelings together with Cloud.


(Crisis Core Ultimania, pg. 33; Tifa’s profile)
クラウドとは物語の終盤に想いを通わせ、「AC」「DC」の時代は一緒に暮らしている。

“She communicates her feelings together with Cloud in the final stages of the story, and in AC and DC they live together.”

(FFVII 10th Anniversary Ultimania, pg. 118; pg. 120 in the Revised Edition; story summary)
残ったクラウドとティファは、互いへの想いを打ち明け、確かめ合う。

“Cloud and Tifa, who remain, reveal their feelings for each other and confirm them to match.”

(FF 20th Anniversary Ultimania File 2: Scenario, pg. 232; main body of FFVII’s story summary)
そして、ふたり、きりになったクラウドとティファは、残された最後の時間で互いの想いを打ち明け合う。

“And when Cloud and Tifa remain behind alone, in their final hours, they disclose that their feelings for each other match.”

(FF 20th Anniversary Ultimania File 2: Scenario, pg. 394; “For the One I Love” page)
「VII」最終決戦前夜に
ティファのおかげで自分を取り戻したクラウドはセフィロスとの最後の戦いを前に言葉では伝えられない想いを彼女と確かめ合う

“VII - The night before the final battle
Thanks to Tifa, Cloud regains himself, and before the final battle with Sephiroth, without using words, he confirms with her that their feelings match.”

(FFVII Ultimania Omega, pg. 198; story summary)
大切な人の待つ場所へと仲間が散っていき、ふたりきりになたクラドとティファ。残された最後の時間でお互いの想いを打ち明け、そして……。

“When their companions disperse to the places where people important to them await, Cloud and Tifa are the only two to remain behind. They reveal their mutual feelings in their final hours, and…….”

IF SE really cares about saying that the version of the HW scene is all about player action then they could have omitted these or say that "Tifa and Cloud exchanged feelings (depending on the player)" every time. They totally ignored the LA version in the profiles.

The answer is simple: SE used the HA version because the FTOIL page is talking about romantic couples. Of course they are going to include the HA version on a page talking about romantic couples.

Ow you did say it's about couples, not scenes. Then regardless of the version that happened, the page listed canon couples then?

Why does it matter where they explain that two versions exist and depend on Cloud's behavior? Are you saying that just because it wasn't explained in the caption that therefore it is irrelevant?

I'm saying that SE made sure to say that the dates depended on Cloud's behavior + Page reference. It does matter, because they didn't get the same treatment. You said a picture is worth a thousand words?

Clerith date = picture
HAHW scene = picture+caption that does not indicate optionality

In short the HAHW is a picture worth a thousand words + more words!

Personally, I think listing a page for reference and then taking up far more room than a caption to explain that two versions of the Highwind scene exist is actually making a bigger deal out of it than explaining it in a silly little caption.

It's actually easier for them to just provide a screencap without "Words aren't the only way..."

Captions are silly? Will you say that if SE confirms that "Cloud gets a date with Aerith" in the page?

It doesn't really matter where SE provided the distinction. All that matters is that they provided it.

That's what makes the argument that the HAHW is canon strong. SE provided the distinction that Cloud and Tifa exchanged feelings in the HA version ONLY. So the words in their profiles would only apply to the HA version because in the LAHW, they did not exchange feelings at all.

It all boils down to opinion. I think the evidence is stronger in favor of Clerith. You feel the evidence is stronger in favor of Cloti.

Both pairings do not actually necessarily contradict each other. Both can actually happen without messing up the story. I admit that the Clerith evidence is strong as well (though not that strong as Cloti) but it doesn't make Cloti any weaker.

You give us all those Clerith proofs but they don't make Cloti any less canon because:

1. Cloud loving Aerith does not mean he doesn't love Tifa.
2. Cloud loving Tifa does not mean he doesn't love Aerith.
3. Prove that those two statements are wrong.

Cloud can be living in that church because he both loves Aerith and feels that he is an unworthy father to his family with Tifa. Cloud can be happy to see Aerith again in the ending of AC because he loves her and then he's also happy that he's with Tifa and their children. Cloud can meet Aerith in the flower field (which didn't happen) and then come home back to Tifa. Fixed.

Edit: It's not like it's some sort of a polygamous relationship. You can simply use a widower model where a guy still loves his dead wife but now has a another one which he also loves.

But neither pairing has been proclaimed canon. SE is purposely ambiguous about who Cloud loves because they understand that this is a love triangle.

Japan does not use the word "canon." It's an English jargon. But there are many things unambiguous that people insist are ambiguous like Tifa described as someone's "koibito," and that "Cloud and Tifa would be together" quote or Cloud life will now be different because he has Tifa now, in a different way etc.

 

[Ryushikaze]

It can be used in the contest of husband and wife though, right? I'm going to guess that's what she was going for...

maybe...


...

and since this constantly comes up:




what are Marlene's sins? Has anyone ever answered this? and is this a bad time to bring up the mistranslation on Nomura's "Her consciousness lives on inside of him" line since he never actually said that? No one ever talks about that when this quote comes up for some reason and I'm kinda surprised by that.

I kinda got bored of it. MAKO PARASITE THEORY FTW is far more amusing.
Oh, yeah, actual response to Blank at some point.

 

[Tetsujin]

As Cloud is riding his motorcycle, you see Aerith standing in a field of flowers.

Not anymore.

 

[Kain Strife]

Oh yeah, plus I like Safe And Sound more.

 

[BlankBeat]

Some variable scenes have canon versions and others don’t. Every single variable scene does not have to have a canon version, especially when you consider Final Fantasy VII has always incorporated the theme of a love triangle. Let me ask you this: if variable scenes must have a canon version, which date scene is canon?

(And don't give me that: well the HA Highwind scene is canonized because of the FTOIL page, and the date scene isn't because there is no page that says which date happens. The overall point I'm trying to make is that not all variable scenes have to be canonized. In addition, it is only an opinion that the FTOIL page makes the HA Highwind scene canon. In my opinion, all the FTOIL page did was direct us to page 232 which shows us that Tifa and Cloud are an optional romantic couple that depends on player controlled affection points. Including Tifa and Cloud on a romantic couples page makes sense, but warrants a distinction -- a distinction SE gave us on page 232).

Furthermore, Cloud and Tifa are never shown together romantically, they sleep in separate rooms (Cloud sometimes sleeps in Aerith's Church), Tifa feels a maternal bond towards Cloud (Nomura; Reunion Files), Tifa doesn’t know if Cloud loves her (Case of Tifa), Marlene is Barret’s daughter, Denzel is a very rare and unique situation, and the Seventh Heaven family has always been one that primarily consists of friends (Tifa even admits that friends can form a family together). Plus, Nomura even states that he doesn’t know if Cloud and Tifa have a relationship together.

In addition, the ending of Advent Children suggests to me that Cloud is continuing his search for the Promised Land so he can be with Aerith (just like he said he would do at the end of Final Fantasy VII). And remember, the question is not whom Cloud can be with at the moment, but whom he loves. His actions at the end of Advent Children suggest to me that his love still lies with Aerith.

Granted, this is all my interpretation, but SE has stated over and over again that they want each one of us to decide for ourselves what we think of the events that happen throughout the compilation.

Maybe the canon answer is that Cloud loves both women and SE wants to leave it up to us to decide whom he loves romantically. This perspective follows along with Cloud being the only Final Fantasy protagonist pictured with two women in two variable scenes on the FTOIL page. And ironically, virtually every other canon pairing has been shown in undeniable romantic situations except Cloud x Tifa and Cloud x Aerith.

The bottom line is: there is no reason to put the date scene of Cloud and Aerith on a page discussing ‘Love Between Heroes’ unless love can exist between Cloud and Aerith.

What makes Final Fantasy VII unique is that it uses the theme of a love triangle. I feel as though this theme is carried on throughout the compilation.

Now to talk about the other Highwind quotes...

Most of the quotes discussing the Highwind scene don’t specify which version they are referring to, and the quotes that are referring specifically to the HA version are provided with a distinction saying that two versions exist.

In both versions Tifa and Cloud express to each other that they are not alone heading into the final battle because they have each other. This means that feelings were expressed in both versions, but that the type of feelings can either be platonic or romantic depending on Tifa’s affection level. Only in the HA version are romantic feelings mutual.

Just because romantic feelings between Tifa and Cloud match in the HA version does not mean feelings weren’t also expressed in the LA version. SE never said feelings weren’t expressed in the LA version, they simply said that romantic feelings between Cloud and Tifa matched in the HA version.

In the LA version Cloud and Tifa may express mutual platonic feelings, come to a mutual understanding that they will only ever be good friends, or simply confirm mutual feelings of not feeling alone heading into the final battle (which is conveniently expressed in BOTH versions).

Most of those quotes could be talking about either the LA version or the HA version. It just depends on your own interpretation of Cloud and Tifa's relationship. But only in the HA version do romantic feelings between Cloud and Tifa match, which is an optional scene that has never been declared canon by SE.

 

[Danseru-kun]

You know Blankbeat, I know it's tough to reply to everyone here so I understand that it could be the reason why you didn't directly address the rebuttals given to you. So I'm suggesting this for the benefit of the people who are following the debate and are eager to see you reply to those arguments: choose a person or two whose arguments you will reply directly so that there is a direct clash and clear communication between the different sides.

Some variable scenes have canon versions and others don’t. Every single variable scene does not have to have a canon version, especially when you consider Final Fantasy VII has always incorporated the theme of a love triangle. Let me ask you this: if variable scenes must have a canon version, which date scene is canon?

I dunno which date scene is canon because Cloud's profile doesn't seem to point a specific date even if he is actually pictured with Tifa. (A picture says a thousand words right?)

Speaking of variable scenes, you actually have an option not to include Vincent or Yuffie in the game at all but SE has confirmed that the two characters are canoncially there, even if they are not seen in the ending FMV at all.

So just because there are deviations mean that there is no canon version and just because there are variable scenes like the date mean that the other variable scene also have no canon outcome. Just because one aspect of the LTD has no canon confirmation like optional dialogues and stuff, you cannot simply use those examples to prove that the whole LTD itself has no clear outcome.

(And don't give me that: well the HA Highwind scene is canonized because of the FTOIL page, and the date scene isn't because there is no page that says which date happens.

Again, not just the FTOIL page but Cloud and Tifa's profiles and story summaries.

It is only an opinion that the FTOIL page makes the HA Highwind scene canon. In my opinion, all the FTOIL page did was direct us to page 232 which shows us that Tifa and Cloud are an optional romantic couple that depends on player controlled affection points. Including Tifa and Cloud on a romantic couples page makes sense, but warrants a distinction -- a distinction SE gave us on page 232).

I'm going to be honest here Blankbeat. We don't debate with opinions. If it's only your opinion that we're just saying our opinions, then whose opinion is right?

See the problem there? If all you are saying are just your opinion and in your opinion we're also just saying opinions, then you are wasting both your time and our time.

Furthermore, Cloud and Tifa are never shown together romantically, they sleep in separate rooms (Cloud sometimes sleeps in Aerith's Church), Tifa feels a maternal bond towards Cloud (Nomura; Reunion Files), Tifa doesn’t know if Cloud loves her (Case of Tifa), Marlene is Barret’s daughter, Denzel is a very rare and unique situation, and the Seventh Heaven family has always been one that primarily consists of friends (Tifa even admits that friends can form a family together).

Quotes? Give it to me or I won't believe you.

Plus, Nomura even states that he doesn’t know if Cloud and Tifa have a relationship together.

When is that interview? Can you give it to us? I know that quote but when was it stated? Official materials can override each other. Even if Nomura said that at that time there are new materials making that interview outdated and already invalid. He may have said he didn't know yet that time, but the proof we are giving to tell that things are now different. You cannot use old quotes to battle new official statements because you know, SE can either change their mind or decide new things.

New is the canon.

In addition, the ending of Advent Children suggests to me that Cloud is continuing his search for the Promised Land so he can be with Aerith (just like he said he would do at the end of Final Fantasy VII). And remember, the question is not whom Cloud can be with at the moment, but whom he loves. His actions at the end of Advent Children suggest to me that his love still lies with Aerith.

Why the hell would I debate with your opinion?

Granted, this is all my interpretation, but SE has stated over and over again that they want each one of us to decide for ourselves what we think of the events that happen throughout the compilation.

Where are the SE quotes you're talking about? Can we see them so we can debate about them properly? I won't believe you if you don't give them.

Maybe the canon answer is that Cloud loves both women and SE wants to leave it up to us to decide whom he loves romantically. This perspective follows along with Cloud being the only Final Fantasy protagonist pictured with two women in two variable scenes on the FTOIL page. And ironically, virtually every other canon pairing has been shown in undeniable romantic situations except Cloud x Tifa and Cloud x Aerith.

Ingus and Sarah has an undeniable romantic situation!? When and where?

And you just contradicted yourself. You just said that even Clerith don't have undeniable romantic situations when in the past posts you keep on referencing all the evidences of Clerith romance. So you say those aren't undeniable? Okay.

The bottom line is: there is no reason to put the date scene of Cloud and Aerith on a page discussing ‘Love Between Heroes’ unless love can exist between Cloud and Aerith.

Then there is no reason either to put Cloud and Tifa there either if love cannot exist between them.

Most of the quotes discussing the Highwind scene don’t specify which version they are referring to, and the quotes that are referring specifically to the HA version are provided with a distinction saying that two versions exist.

But they did mention that Cloud and Tifa exchanged feelings with one another regardless of player control and whenever the two versions are mentioned, it's always specified that the LAHW has no feelings involved.

In both versions Tifa and Cloud express to each other that they are not alone heading into the final battle because they have each other. This means that feelings were expressed in both versions, but that the type of feelings can either be platonic or romantic depending on Tifa’s affection level. Only in the HA version are romantic feelings mutual.

Yes, they're mutual no matter what.

(FFVII Ultimania Omega, pg. 198; story summary)
大切な人の待つ場所へと仲間が散っていき、ふたりきりになたクラドとティファ。残された最後の時間でお互いの想いを打ち明け、そして……。

“When their companions disperse to the places where people important to them await, Cloud and Tifa are the only two to remain behind. They reveal their mutual feelings in their final hours, and…….”

Just because romantic feelings between Tifa and Cloud match in the HA version does not mean feelings weren’t also expressed in the LA version. SE never said feelings weren’t expressed in the LA version, they simply said that romantic feelings between Cloud and Tifa matched in the HA version.

SE never said that feelings were exchanged in the LA version, unless you could give me a quote referring to platonic feelings.

Tifa loves Cloud, the quote above said the feelings are mutual. Then they should be the same.

Here's the quote saying Tifa loves Cloud:

Both Aerith, who is forthright, and Tifa, who is demure, have feelings for Cloud but he is none the wiser to them. - (Cloud's Profile FFVII 10th Aniversary Ultimania.)

Note that his was quoted to reference to the events prior to the Lifestream sequence so Cloud isn't aware of Tifa's feelings yet.

In the LA version Cloud and Tifa may express mutual platonic feelings, come to a mutual understanding that they will only ever be good friends, or simply confirm mutual feelings of not feeling alone heading into the final battle (which is conveniently expressed in BOTH versions).

Again, give me a quote suggesting that feelings were exchanged at all at the LA version too.

Most of those quotes could be talking about either the LA version or the HA version. It just depends on your own interpretation of Cloud and Tifa's relationship. But only in the HA version do romantic feelings between Cloud and Tifa match, which is an optional scene that has never been declared canon by SE.

Again, give me a quote suggesting that feelings are exchanged in the LA version.