The Love Triangle Debate thread of KNEEL BEFORE ZOD OR SUFFER HIS WRATH (ignore the opening posts at your peril) (Round 6)

[Kermitu Kleric Katie]

^

Because Cloud's depression proves that he loves Aerith and not Tifa?

No it proves he loves Zack more than Tifa, because he thought about Zack more throughout the film. Aerith initiated all of his conversations with her.

 

[OneWingedDemon]

[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]For me, the best evidence for Clerith is the way Cloud reacted to her death[/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]LOL.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][/FONT][FONT=&quot]If the best evidence that exists for two people loving each other is one’s reaction to the other’s death, I’d say the ship sank long ago.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][/FONT][FONT=&quot]By people’s reaction to that death scene, you’d think Cloud had been, like, a second away from admitting intention to propose to her.
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Aeris’ death is an extreme. An already unraveling Cloud is faced with the death of a friend and his own failure associated with that. Are we really going to assign special meaning to the fact the guy’s mouth is dry? Or that he’s trembling? After watching Sephiroth skewer her? [/FONT]

 

[Kermitu Kleric Katie]

[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]LOL.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][/FONT][FONT=&quot]If the best evidence that exists for two people loving each other is one’s reaction to the other’s death, I’d say the ship sank long ago.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][/FONT][FONT=&quot]By people’s reaction to that death scene, you’d think Cloud had been, like, a second away from admitting intention to propose to her.
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Aeris’ death is an extreme. An already unraveling Cloud is faced with the death of a friend and his own failure associated with that. Are we really going to assign special meaning to the fact the guy’s mouth is dry? Or that he’s trembling? After watching Sephiroth skewer her? [/FONT]

If we're going to take reactions to death as proof of couples, then Clack and Yerith are ttly cannonz, because Cloud's reaction to Zack was way moar emotional than his reactions to Aerith's(manly tears ftw), and Yuffie had the moast emotional reaction to Aerith's death, with her crying and then hugging Cloud. Yuffie and Aerith had likely gown close over the journey. And let's not forget that tears start to well up in Cloud's eyes when Tifa is merely injured.

 

[Misaka]

What do Clerith shippers think about Crisis Core? To me, it seems like they were really forcing a Zerith pairing. Doesn't that take away from Clerith when you consider how similar the circumstances were?

 

[Vendel]

What do Clerith shippers think about Crisis Core? To me, it seems like they were really forcing a Zerith pairing. Doesn't that take away from Clerith when you consider how similar the circumstances were?

Oh I'm sure it sticks in their craw that so many "clerith" moments are copies of Zerith ones. Or that all of the "clerith" symbolism around pink and ribbons and flower and such is because of Zack.

 

[minimosey]

What do Clerith shippers think about Crisis Core? To me, it seems like they were really forcing a Zerith pairing. Doesn't that take away from Clerith when you consider how similar the circumstances were?

As someone who likes Clerith? Crisis Core annoyed me a lot more for how it portrayed Aerith and made a lot of her characteristics derived from Zack than anything else.

Zack and Aerith's relationship is pretty fulfilling for her emotional state in Final Fantasy VII. If they hadn't had such a sweet thing together, it'd make no sense for her to still be thinking about him five years later. And the similarities were already mentioned in the original game; she noticed it in Cloud's mannerisms and they bothered her. I suppose the date offer would count as another similarity, but CC doesn't change her flirting with Cloud to the very end (...and beyond, calling him "beloved"), knowing full well he isn't Zack.

If anything I think some of the similarities actually improves on some things. She was hardheaded about following Cloud just after they met in the church, and even in the original game we knew it was because the similarity to Zack was bothering her, but that's kind of vague, you know? Now with Crisis Core, we know that after she met him once (and that time let him go without any unusual comment), Cloud then not only duplicated Zack's bizarre accident of falling into the flower bed but copied the way Zack got up (they both do the same flippy move and there's even a dmv scene that shows how Cloud saw Zack do it once to have learned it), on top of showing the general mannerisms we were already told about and got to see more of from Zack in CC. We also know from Crisis Core that Aerith had definitely sensed something about Zack only a few weeks prior to meeting Cloud, even if it's not 100% sure she knew he was dead. So...yeah, for someone who's strongly intuitive I believe it'd make sense to Aerith that something is strange and she needs to figure out wtf is up with this guy. In that way Crisis Core makes her seem more rational about the Cloud/Zack resemblance, because with the original game alone there was the question of if she wasn't just projecting what she wanted to see onto a supposed First Class. CC estabishes there were very strong, borderline creepy (...no, actually, they are creepy) similarities that would have been hard to dismiss as just coincidence.

tl;dr: to me, Zack/Aerith in Crisis Core is only problematic for Cloud/Aerith if you think Aerith can only love one of them.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Best rationalization of Crisis Core I've ever read there, mini.

Still hate that game, though.

 

[Vendel]

tl;dr: to me, Zack/Aerith in Crisis Core is only problematic for Cloud/Aerith if you think Aerith can only love one of them.

That is a bit silly to say. You don't reinforce just how much of the C/A "relationship" is built on lies if you don't want to hammer home a point or two.

Also how many people do you know who played CC first and come away thinking C/A is canon?

 

[Kermitu Kleric Katie]

That is a bit silly to say. You don't reinforce just how much of the C/A "relationship" is built on lies if you don't want to hammer home a point or two.

Also how many people do you know who played CC first and come away thinking C/A is canon?

I don't know any. I do know many who played it first who were confused when Cloud told the Nibelheim incident story in Kalm, and who overreacted to Aerith's death. I overall recommend playing VII first, then Crisis Core. And CC also helps solidify the CloTi relationship as well as Zerith. There's Cloud groping Tifa's boob at the reactor, Tifa's letter, etc. CCU only helps furhter solidify CloTi moar, with Tifa's page, the part about Cloud being in love with Tifa, etc. Though I have to say, Clerith is one of the most plausible non-canon pairings, and I could see it happening if Tifa didn't exist and Aerith was younger than Cloud, assuming Zack still dies. But then again, if Tifa didn't exist, we wouldn't have FFVII, since Cloud wouldn't try (and fail) to join SOLDIER, and would never befriend Zack or fall in love with Tifa, and wouldn't defeat Sephy and the reactor, and would probably die during the Nibelheim fire, leaving Sephy to try and take over the world before most likely being killed by a bunch of Shinra SOLDIERs and infantrymen.

 

[Arianna]

And I peeked in just to say, once again: We're still debating this?!

 

[Kermitu Kleric Katie]

And I peeked in just to say, once again: We're still debating this?!

I've been debating with someone about whether Clack or Cloti is teh cannonz:
http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/197341-final-fantasy-vii/64426450

 

[Kermitu Kleric Katie]

I need you guys to vote for Tifa in this thread, since she's losing to Aerith:
http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/197341-final-fantasy-vii/64426450
You don't need to have a GameFAQs account to vote, so don't worry. Guess the cleriths aren't as diminished as we thought.

 

[Danseru-kun]

[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]LOL.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]If the best evidence that exists for two people loving each other is one’s reaction to the other’s death, I’d say the ship sank long ago.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]By people’s reaction to that death scene, you’d think Cloud had been, like, a second away from admitting intention to propose to her.
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Aeris’ death is an extreme. An already unraveling Cloud is faced with the death of a friend and his own failure associated with that. Are we really going to assign special meaning to the fact the guy’s mouth is dry? Or that he’s trembling? After watching Sephiroth skewer her? [/FONT]

Precisely it is, aside from Aeriths' death scene, there is no mutually emotional moment between Cloud and Aerith, and in her death, she's dead, so it's not exactly two-way unless you count MWTTP.

But that's exactly what I feel about it, Cloud's reaction is the best they can get, but I'm not saying it's strong enough. I say even if it has a huge emotional value, it's no where as close to Cloud's interactions with Tifa in terms of romantic proof.

Honestly, I don't think it's absurd to think that Cloud's reaction to her death is romantic (even if I don't think it's romantic.) Let's just say it's a plausible theory, just a theory. But the problem is when people insist that's enough to proof that it's a canon romance and get offended when people think otherwise.

So yeah, I think Aerith's death's impact to Cloud is the best Clerith evidence, BUT it's not enough to be at par to Cloti ones.

 

[Selphie Tilmitt]

^^ I think it's emotional and it was even picked as one of the scenes to be shown/most memorable scenes at the live FF7 event for the FF 25th Anniversary in Japan/the care scene/scene where Cloud lost his cool and poured out his emotions (source -http://www.famitsu.com/news/201209/02020568.html) though I'm not entirely clear on whether Square Enix picked the scenes which were noted/referred to during the event or the Japanese fans did, iirc the fans based off results from a questionare before the event, but it doesn't prove romance in and of itself, it just proved Cloud realised he cared quite a lot about Aerith/Cloud had an emotional reaction I think Even for a friend Cloud realised she was a special one/special person to him

 

[Kermitu Kleric Katie]

Aerith's death is ttly AerTi proofz. Tifa kneels before Aerith and cries, before running off still crying, and in the ending, Tifa even tells Cloud she wants to meet Aerith again! Isn't that just romantic?

 

[Vendel]

And I peeked in just to say, once again: We're still debating this?!

Ain't no gettin' offa this train we're on!!!

 

[Kermitu Kleric Katie]

Ain't no gettin' offa this train we're on!!!

'til we reach the end of the line!

 

[I Am Not Me]

I need you guys to vote for Tifa in this thread, since she's losing to Aerith:
http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/197341-final-fantasy-vii/64426450
You don't need to have a GameFAQs account to vote, so don't worry. Guess the cleriths aren't as diminished as we thought.

Zack is winning. Looks like the Clacks are flourishing.

Spoiler: Just as planned.

And to contribute to the...umm, discussion.


While Aerith's death is a pretty emotional point in the storyline, it still isn't enough proof to base canon off of. A fanbase maybe, but definitely not for canon. Many characters have died in different stories and a lot of different characters have reacted to such deaths, both romantic and non-romantic in relation to the dead person. An example would be... say, Gandalf dying in LoTR. The following scene was emotional, and the characters CRIED and grieved, and you don't see people shipping Gandalf/the Fellowship as canon. It's all sorts of wrong, though, so that could be why.

This next example is a much better parallel, but is spoilerific (if you haven't played it) so read at your own risk:

Spoiler

In Final Fantasy XIII-2 (if you haven't played it to the end STOP READING), we know that Snow/Serah is the obvious canon couple. They're engaged, if that isn't obvious enough. They're canon whether we like it or not. While the Serah/Noel dynamic is a bit more ambiguous, we do know that for the most part, they're just friends. Serah never broke up with Snow, and Noel didn't seem to mind their relationship, or even expressed jealousy (it was played with, but it turns out he just didn't like Snow for leaving Serah by herself). Noel also may or may not have romantic feelings for Yeul (but it seems to be leaning more on the latter). When Serah died in the end, Noel cried, shouted her name, stroked her face, hugged her close, and was appropriately anguished. But they weren't romantically involved. Noel just really cared about her, just as Cloud did for Aerith. If Noel did have romantic feelings for Serah, he would be faced with some problems: she's dead, she's getting married (if she lives again; death is cheap if you have time travel), and he also did say he wants to be with Yeul.

I can see how the ending could set a Noel/Serah ship sailing, but if we look at the actual couple (Snow/Serah) and how much they have going for them (kissing and hugging and being officially engaged should be more than enough proof), one death scene which shows an appropriately upset Noel isn't enough to disprove those. In parallel to Clerith and Cloti; Cloti obviously has a lot pointing to them, concretely and abstractly. Clerith has a death scene, Cloti has a family. Aerith is dead and never coming back, and she has Zack mowing the lifestream. Tifa is alive, and she's living with Cloud, with kids who regard them as parents.

That being said, I ship Noel/Serah. But they're not canon.

I know I don't base Clack on Zack's death scene, that's for sure.

Hello, LTD thread. Glad to see you guys still discussing this. I missed the FFVII fandom.

 

[Kermitu Kleric Katie]

I think the FFVII fanbase is becoming as overrun with Yaoi fangirls as Kingdom Hearts. Who will save us?

 

[I Am Not Me]

I think the FFVII fanbase is becoming as overrun with Yaoi fangirls as Kingdom Hearts. Who will save us?

No one can. Yaoi is the new het. And yuri too.

 

[Kermitu Kleric Katie]

No one can. Yaoi is the new het. And yuri too.

But, that's not true! THAT'S IMPOSSIBLE!

 

[Arianna]

Ain't no gettin' offa this train we're on!!!

'til we reach the end of the line!

Well, I think the line hit a brick wall a while back, and is somehow just repeatedly backing up and slamming into the same wall over and over and over again.

Oh well.

 

[Danseru-kun]

I don't know what to make of the notion that Tifa doesn't love the real Cloud because of the following.

1. She didn't even notice Cloud in Nibelheim when she was 7-12 years old when Aerith at 22 years old noticed Cloud at first sight
2. Tifa only because interested in Cloud when he said he'll be someone famous even if he himself never had the courage to talk to her when they were kids when Aerith loves him for he is
3. Tifa strong-armed Cloud to make a promise for her when she was 13 when Aerith at 22 years old apparently didn't strong-arm him into doing anything for her
4. Tifa only pursued Cloud when a love rival, Aerith, arrived and had a chance of winning against her

"Therefore, Tifa doesn't love Cloud but is selfish and took him for granted."

The blackened parts are what's always omitted. Sorry for phoenix downing this thread, I need to vent steam.

 

[I Am Not Me]

Meh, don't worry too much about it, Danseru. Nowadays I just notice that most they do is shoot down Cloti and nothing else. It's like, somehow, saying that Cloti isn't valid makes the other couple the more valid option.

"Cloti isn't canon, and neither is our ship, so our ship wins! Somehow! Because logic! "

Which is, in my opinion, what people on a sinking ship is liable to do. Shoot down the opposing ship so that they go down together.

Spoiler

 

[Sikozu]

There may have been discussion about this before, but I really don't want to look all over for it. Um, what is Dismantled? Is it canon? And why do I see some Cleriths using parts of it as C/A evidence?

For instance, there was one part from Aerith's POV that went something like "I now undoubtedly know I love Cloud more than Zack". Or something like that. And there are a bunch more, sort of like journal entries.. I just wanna know who wrote 'em and if they should be taken seriously.