The Love Triangle Debate thread of KNEEL BEFORE ZOD OR SUFFER HIS WRATH (ignore the opening posts at your peril) (Round 6)

[Vendel]

I don't know what to make of the notion that Tifa doesn't love the real Cloud because of the following.

You have to understand Denseru. They like to take things about Tifa and project them on to Aerith and vice versa.

Like Tifa doesn't love the real Cloud but Aerith does. Even though Aerith never met the real Cloud. Or to put it another way, that Tifa likes the Zack parts of Cloud while Aerith likes the Cloud parts etc.

Or things like Cloud takes time from his work to spirit frolic with Aerith in the flowers. But if he tells Tifa to close the bar the next day it's because he wants to spend time with EVERYONE!!

(They called it a retcon when "The kids are Alright" confirmed the Avalanche reunion picture happened right after AC ended. Oh noez I guess Cloud really does want to spend time with Tifa *gasp*)

There are other examples. But just know that despite Aerith stalking Cloud because he reminds her of her dead boyfriend Tifa is the clingy/delusional one.

There may have been discussion about this before, but I really don't want to look all over for it. Um, what is Dismantled? Is it canon? And why do I see some Cleriths using parts of it as C/A evidence?

For instance, there was one part from Aerith's POV that went something like "I now undoubtedly know I love Cloud more than Zack". Or something like that. And there are a bunch more, sort of like journal entries.. I just wanna know who wrote 'em and if they should be taken seriously.

As far as I know Dismantled is a guidbook that happens to have flavor text in it. Written by the same guy who wrote "maiden". They are both published fanfiction as far as I am concerned. The Cleriths love it for the same reason they love maiden. It's very flowery and Benny apparently has a hard-on for Aerith. I for one ignore prose not written by Nojima. You know, the guy who actually writes the stories.

 

[Edley]

I had this alternate ending of AC in mind where Cloud jumps out of the water and chases Ghost Aerith and Zack screaming "I CHOOSE A MEMORY!" But they fade away and Cloud is left to cry as the rest of the group awkwardly walks away.

Clerith Cloud is such a wanker.

 

[Vendel]

I had this alternate ending of AC in mind where Cloud jumps out of the water and chases Ghost Aerith and Zack screaming "I CHOOSE A MEMORY!" But they fade away and Cloud is left to cry as the rest of the group awkwardly walks away.

Clerith Cloud is such a wanker.

Don't you get it? even Death is powerless in the face of Cloud and Aerith’s desire to be together again, demonstrating a love greater and far more cherishable than anything he could ever know with Tifa.

 

[I Am Not Me]

Didn't Dismantled come out before Crisis Core? I'm not sure. But Aerith certainly didn't love Cloud more than Zack. I can say equally, if she goes on to say Cloud is her beloved/lover. But it doesn't change the fact that she still wore Zack's ribbon, that she still wore pink for their next date that never came, that she started falling for Cloud because he reminded her of Zack.

All the latest things will always trump the old things. In their own words, "it's in the past, therefore not valid". I mean, they even updated Advent Children to show how important both Aerith and Zack were to Cloud, removed Aerith from the passing flower field, added more flashbacks and a scene involving Zack, and added a scene between Cloud and Tifa. In fact, they re-rendered almost everything else... except the CA back to back scene (amongst other things).

ACC was pretty much a stab in the back and front and sides to them. The FTOIL page was like salt and vinegar to those stab wounds. So let them say what they want, let them throw their temper tantrums. It doesn't change what facts (that don't need interpretation) there are present from the past and present (hi, Compilation, hi Dissidia Duodecim).






I'm so mature.

CLACK FTW

 

[Sikozu]

Okay, this is going to sound ridiculous - oh wait, this is the LTD, everything's crazy. Nevermind.

When Sephiroth asks what Cloud cherishes most so he can take it away and images of his friends and family flash through his mind, can someone tell me the order in which they appear? And is it different from AC to ACC? Because I saw someone say that Aerith appears first and that means that Cloud loves her the most, and I'd like to reply to them for some silly reason but both my versions are in storage.

So Benny Matsuyama wrote those diary entries for the characters? I see, so are they about as official as the OFFICIAL US commercial, then? Jeebus.

 

[I Am Not Me]

Okay, this is going to sound ridiculous - oh wait, this is the LTD, everything's crazy. Nevermind.

When Sephiroth asks what Cloud cherishes most so he can take it away and images of his friends and family flash through his mind, can someone tell me the order in which they appear? And is it different from AC to ACC? Because I saw someone say that Aerith appears first and that means that Cloud loves her the most, and I'd like to reply to them for some silly reason but both my versions are in storage.

And I have the answer to that. In fact, I'm going to repost my really old post regarding that topic, just to show how ridiculous that "omg the order in which they flash is proof of troo luv!!11" argument is:

I know you're all thinking it, and are just afraid to say it. So I'll post it for everyone.

Let us recall what Sephiroth says that triggers this scene:
"Tell me what you cherish most. Give me the pleasure of taking it away"

From this alone, we can conclude that the order of appearances is made to be in ascending order. Meaning, least to greatest. This would basically mean that the first to appear is the one Cloud dislikes most, and the last is the one Cloud likes best/is in love with. It's simply just the "save the best for last" universal law.

First, we have Aerith appearing. She not only flashes once, but twice. There is a reason for this. Aerith appears twice to emphasize Cloud's dislike for her. Among all of these people, Aerith is the least he cherishes.

Don't ask me how this bodes for the rest of the AVALANCHE members who are not even on the list.

Next, we have Tifa. She's just a girl Cloud is living with. He stays with her for food, shelter, and laundry. She is liked more than Aerith, if only for packing Cloud's lunches and keeping his underwear clean.

Next, we have Marlene. She's in the middle of the list, which means Cloud is neutral about her. He probably would've liked her better if she didn't look like Aerith with that ribbon in her hair.

Second to the last is Denzel. Clearly, Cloud likes him. After minutes of finding the kid, he holds his hand. He also parallels Denzel to the person he likes the most, which can be seen in the scenes before the Bahamut fight.

The last to be shown is Zack, and he's not just flashed. He has heavier emphasis than Cloud's dislike for Aerith. His appearance has more weight in this whole scene, as he also appears back-to-back with Cloud, giving him the strength to fight again. It's clear that Cloud cherishes him the most, and quite possibly, he's also in love with him.


Simply put: Barret & co. < Aerith < Tifa < Marlene < Denzel < Zack

You people should learn to accept the cold, hard truth. It can't get any more clearer than this. Clack is the intended pairing of FFVII.

Yep.

 

[Vendel]

When Sephiroth asks what Cloud cherishes most so he can take it away and images of his friends and family flash through his mind, can someone tell me the order in which they appear? And is it different from AC to ACC?

They are different. Zack appears last in ACC as a lead in to a whitespace conversation.

Because I saw someone say that Aerith appears first and that means that Cloud loves her the most,

No, it just means that person is an idiot.

But if we are going by order does Marlene mean more to him than Denzel? But wait Zack leads directly into a conversation? Does that mean it was building up to that and thus Aerith is the least important?

When confronted with logic like this there are three possible responses

1. They ignore it
2. Aerrth is special so the "loves the most" rule only applies to her.
or
3. That Aerith is most important and Zack is least important and that Cloud does cherish Denzel less than Marlene. Even though he is supposedly C/A's kid or something.

So Benny Matsuyama wrote those diary entries for the characters? I see, so are they about as official as the OFFICIAL US commercial, then? Jeebus.

Let's just say they are of dubious worth.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Yes, that argument has to be the worst pro-Clerith claim of all. Not only are the images drastically different between the two versions of the film (one would think they would be identical if this whole idea held any water to begin with), but -- well, just read this post I've made on the topic before:

As for Cloud thinking of Aerith first, the problem I have with this interpretation (that it means she's more important to him than anyone else) is that it requires we assume that each successive image means a little less to him. That becomes especially problematic since the last image (Zack) lingers the longest.

One could also argue that, because this is a film, the images are building to a climax rather than starting with it. Of course, that argument has its problems too: the opposite situation as the other suggestion. It requires we assume each successive image means a little more to him.

The biggest issue I have with either argument is that both assume one of the kids means less to Cloud than the other. If you start with Aerith as most important, then Marlene means more to him than Denzel. If you start with Aerith as least important, then Denzel means more to him than Marlene.

I simply cannot see Cloud as a douche who would love one of his children more than the other, and I will not entertain any notion that he is. As distatestful as that on its own would be, the idea of him caring more for a dead person (whether it be Aerith or Zack) than the family he's lived with for two years, who Cloud himself says has always been there for him ... that would just ruin him as a character.

That being said, I can reason some significance to the order of the images that doesn't make Cloud an asshole. This, by the way, is going with the order used in Advent Children Complete rather than the original cut of the movie.

We first have two flashes of Aerith, one of her while alive, then another from when she came to help him after she died. Next is Tifa, then Marlene, then Denzel. Finally, we have two flashes of Zack; one from when he was alive, and then a flash into white space where Zack encourages Cloud even after death.

The only significance to all this that fits the character is a) he's thinking of the five people who mean the most to him, and b) the ones still alive are bookended with thoughts of the two he felt he had let down. If I were to go a step further than that, I'd say the major significance of Aerith being first comes from her being the symbol of his guilt, which he is now breaking free of. At the other end is Zack, with whom he reaffirms that he will live on before asserting once and for all that he isn't a prisoner to his memories by sending Sephiroth "back where you belong. My memories."

 

[Strangelove]

being first obviously means you're most important, unless the context is being flung into the sky to stab a dragon in the face in which case last place means you're the greetest

does no one learn

I'm so mature.

HOLY CHRIST YOU'RE 16 NOW

i forgot

that

people age

 

[TotoroTori]

This is my first time in the LTD area on this forum, so lets see how I do

Well the flashback motion, I would usually be "Yeah last person seen is the most important" (Clack is totally cannon y'all!)

But thanks to ACC this is how I see it. The moment when Sephiroth says, 'Give me the pleasure of taking it away" First you see is Aerith, someone that Sephiroth already took someone that was precious to Cloud (and to the rest of the team) with her last smile before Sephiroth killed her and then you see Tifa, Marlene, and Denzel as well as the photograph focusing on those three, Cloud's cherished family, that is what he cherished and I think he panicked in fear that he could fail and they would be taken away from him with Aerith was by Sephiroth and then you see Zack (who wasn't killed by Sephiroth per say) who gives him the encouragement to push on.

Maybe I see it wrong but that is how I saw it personally.


Also with the Maiden, every time that gets pointed out I twitch because Aerith just didn't seem like Aerith in it , I couldn't finish it because it felt a bit boring and I never read the 'Dismantled' or seen anything of it.

 

[Sikozu]

I was watching Advent Children on a streaming site a little while ago, and I skipped to the "cherish most" part had a laugh because if you look at it as a numbered list it goes like:

- Aerith and Cloud clasping hands
- Aerith the moment before she was killed
- Zack smiling in a truck
- Aerith's reflection in Cloud's eye
- Tifa
- Marlene
- Denzel
- Tifa, Marlene and Denzel together

So Cloud cherishes some part of Zack more than some part of Aerith? Or he did in the first version at least. In ACC he downgrades him. That's messed up, Cloud. Zack in a truck used to be your third favorite thing. What. a. butthole.

 

[Vendel]

This is my first time in the LTD area on this forum, so lets see how I do

You can check out, but you can never leave.

Well the flashback motion, I would usually be "Yeah last person seen is the most important" (Clack is totally cannon y'all!)

But thanks to ACC this is how I see it. The moment when Sephiroth says, 'Give me the pleasure of taking it away" First you see is Aerith, someone that Sephiroth already took someone that was precious to Cloud (and to the rest of the team) with her last smile before Sephiroth killed her and then you see

WAIT! So you are saying that when Sephiroth is talking about killing people that the first thing Cloud would think about is someone he had actually killed?

Stop making sense by voicing my thoughts on the subject since I first saw the movie!

Tifa, Marlene, and Denzel as well as the photograph focusing on those three, Cloud's cherished family, that is what he cherished and I think he panicked in fear that he could fail and they would be taken away from him with Aerith was by Sephiroth and then you see Zack (who wasn't killed by Sephiroth per say) who gives him the encouragement to push on.

Maybe I see it wrong but that is how I saw it personally.

You know I just had a different thought. If the 7th Heaven Family is just a "family of friends" shouldn't Cloud have had a vision of the rest of the team? Or at least Barret? Because he is supposedly the father figure of the family, Tifa is the mother and Cloud is the brother or son or.....hell I can't keep track of the nonsense. Where is everyone else?

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Ven, you still having trouble with the logistics of Denzel being CxA's kid? But hold on, Tifa is identified as the mother of the family at 7th Heaven, so that would make Cloud the fa -- no, wait, wait, Tifa is Denzel's new mother, yes, but if she's the mother figure, that must make Cloud the big brother and another son to Tifa, who is younger than him, but that doesn't matter, 'cause Barret is older than Cloud and *he* is the actual father figure -- okay, right, so Barret doesn't live there, but it is his place, like one of those Mexican fathers who goes to the U.S. as a migrant worker and sends money home -- okay, sure, Case of Barret says that it's Cloud and Tifa's home, and specifically excludes Barret from sharing ownership, but Tifa worries that Cloud may not be in love with her, so they must not be the parents -- right, yes, she's started looking at him as a son even though she still wants him to be in love with her -- now, hold on, what do you mean only Marlene, Denzel and Tifa are identified as Cloud's family, while Barret is grouped in with his nakama? And what's this you're saying about Denzel looking at Cloud and Tifa as his parents?

You know what, they're just a family of friends at 7th Heaven, and all the members of AVALANCHE are included. Especially the ones who don't live there.

Really, man, what's so hard to understand about this?

And while you're trying to figure that out, here I am more than three years later still waiting to find out exactly what sins exactly Marlene is supposed to share with the members of AVALANCHE, the family of friends who live at 7th Heaven -- even though most of them don't.

 

[OneWingedDemon]

I simply cannot see Cloud as a douche who would love one of his children more than the other, and I will not entertain any notion that he is.

He loves Denzel more because Aeris brought him to Cloud.
Denzel is their love child. He has Aeris' hair and Cloud's eyes.

 

[TotoroTori]

He loves Denzel more because Aeris brought him to Cloud.
Denzel is their love child. He has Aeris' hair and Cloud's eyes.

yeah that is what was said about Sora who is in Kingdom Hearts.

And now I suddenly remember a post about Cloud and Aerith having spirit sex in the lifestream from several years ago

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

We need more Cleriths in here. Entertaining as sarcasm and mockery of the Path of Pinkness is on its own, its just not the same without someone trying (and failing) to argue in its favor.

 

[I Am Not Me]

I would volunteer to be the temporary Clerith, but I think you'll all just see my posts as sarcastic and/or ridiculous.

Plus, Father Ryu and Uncle Vendel are scary, rabid Clotis.

 

[jazzflower92]

I wonder how the game would be if Sephiroth was female.Man,they would amp up even more Foe Yay with Cloud if that happened.Although I have a feeling the fangirls wouldn't be that excited for the pairing as much if Sephiroth was female.

 

[TotoroTori]

I would volunteer to be the temporary Clerith, but I think you'll all just see my posts as sarcastic and/or ridiculous.

Plus, Father Ryu and Uncle Vendel are scary, rabid Clotis.

I dunno I think I can be a very rapid CloTi at least a long time ago I was.

But Cleriths are all on tumblr spamming the Final Fantasy VII tag and the other tags within the FF7 world including CloTi

 

[Danseru-kun]

Because I'm such a pathetic Cloti I asked my Japanese groupmate regarding the issue and SURPRISE it didn't negate what we have been arguing for, she actually confirmed Cloti like materials have done for the 574537nth time.

-The "email" were talking about is school stuff okay?

Her last message says "thank you, you can ask me anything about Japanese anytime is ok."

She said "I made a mistake" before it gets cherry-picked again it refers to her making a spelling error (tunhkol should be tungkol) and not about the translation. So may have noticed that when I'm trying hard to speak in Japanese, she's trying to learn Filipino so you get English sandwiched in between our conversation. Makes my day

 

[I Am Not Me]

^All I have to say, Danseru, is that at least you have legit Japanese people to speak of. That right there is a real person you are talking to.

Now if you can conduct some of those confirmations in a McDonalds, it'll be perfect.

I dunno I think I can be a very rapid CloTi at least a long time ago I was.

But Cleriths are all on tumblr spamming the Final Fantasy VII tag and the other tags within the FF7 world including CloTi

Yeah, I saw that. That really kind of annoying. ._. How would they like it if people bashed their pairing in their tag? When you call their attention, they act victimized and/or entitled.

Fandumb.

 

[Danseru-kun]

^

If you think one Japanese is not enough, I have 10 more Japanese classmates and I'm friends with another one in facebook. But I think one is enough, she didn't know anything about the subject and she just answered that it confirms romance between a man and a woman. Anyway, Risa will be my groupmate for the rest of the semester and if you want to ask Japanese stuff, she said I can ask her anything.

And just a reminder guys, we're not supposed to bring ship wars happening in other sites to to this thread.

 

[TotoroTori]

^

And just a reminder guys, we're not supposed to bring ship wars happening in other sites to to this thread.

Right sorry...

Anyways another argument I saw is based off the concept of "First girl that is seen" that since Aerith is the first girl seen that makes her the main love interest as seen with several traditions that the first person the main character see's is who they fall in love with

 

[I Am Not Me]

I thought that rule meant other forums and specific individuals, but I guess that's fair. Shutting up about it now.

As for the whole Japanese friend thing, it's good that you asked someone who doesn't know anything about the LTD. That keeps the neutrality. Maybe you should ask them about the whole paragraph to make sure they don't nitpick that you gave her something out of context.

Spoiler

I would ask my dad or my grandma but they'll just scold me and tell me to find out myself. But I hate studying Kanji. I'm only good at speaking in Japanese.

Ask her what she thinks of koi________bito.

Right sorry...

Anyways another argument I saw is based off the concept of "First girl that is seen" that since Aerith is the first girl seen that makes her the main love interest as seen with several traditions that the first person the main character see's is who they fall in love with

First girl (who appears) doesn't always win.

And if you take into consideration the whole story, it's actually Tifa who Cloud himself first sees. So, if you use their own argument...

 

[Danseru-kun]

Well...

In FFX, Rikku is first seen rather than Yuna...
In Crisis Core it's Yuffie...
In Star Wars, Leia is the first woman (or the only one) seen yet Han gets her
In Gundam Seed, you don't see Lacus Clyne until after a few episodes

I don't think we should take that seriously

@ Meibito

Okay I'll give her the whole sentence but I'll change the names. As for koibito, I think there is too much info on that already but let us see. Because no matter how koibito is two-sided or not, the fact remains that in COLW it was from Aerith's perspective when the RF line for Tifa is a statement of SE.