The Love Triangle Debate thread of KNEEL BEFORE ZOD OR SUFFER HIS WRATH (ignore the opening posts at your peril) (Round 6)

[Morana]

HiI I have been lurking around this forums for some time and I just wanted to pop in and say that I think this is by far the most objective love triangle debate I stumbled upon. I love your arguments and I found out some things I didn't know before.

Danseru-kun, I have read your essays and I loved them. Especially, your essay about Anti-Tifa arguments since she is my favorite fictional character and I hate when someone distorts her personality completely.

To stay on topic, 'For the one I love' page sealed the deal for me. I just don't know how revelation of matching mutual feelings means suddenly friendship,rejection etc. Everything except love. It just doesn't make sense to me.

 

[Danseru-kun]

^

They argue that because there are statements saying that the HW version you'll get depends on your game choices, it means the scene is entirely optional. They claim the phrases "communicated feelings" in Cloud and Tifa's profile can mean friendship which they claim to have happened in the LA HW version. Therefore, either the HA HW or the LA HW version could have happened depending on player interpretation.

That's the prettiest way I can explain their argument, that does not account the double standard on the Aerith date, the denial of the confirmed romance of the Japanese phrase when they don't know Japanese at all, the imaginary scenarios and hypothetical dialogue that they propose to make sense of the their theory and use it against what the canon material actually gives.

> _ > Sorry if that sounded harsh, I'm in my "not nice" mood.

 

[Morana]

^

They argue that because there are statements saying that the HW version you'll get depends on your game choices, it means the scene is entirely optional. They claim the phrases "communicated feelings" in Cloud and Tifa's profile can mean friendship which they claim to have happened in the LA HW version. Therefore, either the HA HW or the LA HW version could have happened depending on player interpretation.

That's the prettiest way I can explain their argument, that does not account the double standard on the Aerith date, the denial of the confirmed romance of the Japanese phrase when they don't know Japanese at all, the imaginary scenarios and hypothetical dialogue that they propose to make sense of the their theory and use it against what the canon material actually gives.

> _ > Sorry if that sounded harsh, I'm in my "not nice" mood.

It is okay. I know you must be exasperated. Thanks for explaining me this. Don't the imaginary scenarios and hypothetical dialogue belong to fanfiction? Still the page is called For the one I love and there are all canon couples. So Tifa and Cloud are exception? It seems they are exception to everything. And yes, there is picture of Aerith and Cloud on the date but under that picture it says that his date could be also Barret, Tifa or Yuffie.

 

[Danseru-kun]

Yes, Cloud and Tifa are exemptions because of these arguments:

1. Cloud is pictured with two women, therefore there is no canon love interest
2. The Highwind Scene has two versions indicated by the redirect page in page 232 and the FTOIL page only confirmed that the HA HW scene is romantic but it doesn't confirm it happened
3. The Japanese phrase in Cloud and Tifa's profiles and story summaries can both be used in romantic and non romantic situations

Some things that piss me off
1. Celes and Locke's confession is also optional I think, but nobody questions them
2. The phrase used for Cloud and Tifa are also used for CelesxLocke and IngusxSarah but for some reason, it's different when used to the two of them.
3. They don't know a single thing about Japanese but act like they do and when a translator explains them the meaning, as long as it's not pro-Clerith, it's wrong and you're misleading people with biased Cloti information. Honestly it is, that's what we have been talking about in the last pages... and the last 100 pages.

 

[Morana]

Yes, Cloud and Tifa are exemptions because of these arguments:

1. Cloud is pictured with two women, therefore there is no canon love interest
2. The Highwind Scene has two versions indicated by the redirect page in page 232 and the FTOIL page only confirmed that the HA HW scene is romantic but it doesn't confirm it happened
3. The Japanese phrase in Cloud and Tifa's profiles and story summaries can both be used in romantic and non romantic situations

Some things that piss me off
1. Celes and Locke's confession is also optional I think, but nobody questions them
2. The phrase used for Cloud and Tifa are also used for CelesxLocke and IngusxSarah but for some reason, it's different when used to the two of them.
3. They don't know a single thing about Japanese but act like they do and when a translator explains them the meaning, as long as it's not pro-Clerith, it's wrong and you're misleading people with biased Cloti information. Honestly it is, that's what we have been talking about in the last pages... and the last 100 pages.

So basically it is denying the evidence. I just hate double standards.

 

[Sikozu]

The FTOIL stuff really irritates me. It's so asinine to pretend this isn't a confirmation of Cloud and Tifa starting a romantic relationship. Even if all it was saying was that there was an option to have them get together, the lack of an equivalent for Cloud and Aerith should tell you something. Sure, there's a picture of them at GS date, but the caption doesn't discuss it beyond including it as one of four possibilities.

Cleriths think the fact that the C/A date is pictured alone lends it significance(and they think that date's canon because it's default already, I think), but the conversation they have on that date doesn't move them from friends to lovers, so even if it was canon it's not a big deal for C/A. Aerith shares her feelings about her Cloud/Zack dilemma, Cloud doesn't have a clue what she's talking about. They get off the ride, Aerith says they should do it again sometime, then it's back to the hotel.

So where's even the option for Cloud and Aerith? Where's the "I'm here for you", the "fingers tingling, mouth dry, eyes burning", the "I think I can meet her there"?

 

[Morana]

The FTOIL stuff really irritates me. It's so asinine to pretend this isn't a confirmation of Cloud and Tifa starting a romantic relationship. Even if all it was saying was that there was an option to have them get together, the lack of an equivalent for Cloud and Aerith should tell you something. Sure, there's a picture of them at GS date, but the caption doesn't discuss it beyond including it as one of four possibilities.

Cleriths think the fact that the C/A date is pictured alone lends it significance(and they think that date's canon because it's default already, I think), but the conversation they have on that date doesn't move them from friends to lovers, so even if it was canon it's not a big deal for C/A. Aerith shares her feelings about her Cloud/Zack dilemma, Cloud doesn't have a clue what she's talking about. They get off the ride, Aerith says they should do it again sometime, then it's back to the hotel.

I never saw Aerith's and Cloud's date as anything so romantic. He just sat there being all confused. The only date that he seems vaguely interested is the one with Tifa.

So where's even the option for Cloud and Aerith? Where's the "I'm here for you", the "fingers tingling, mouth dry, eyes burning", the "I think I can meet her there"?

All of this comes way more important then anything Cloud ever said to Tifa.

 

[Kermitu Kleric Katie]

First of all, regarding the I think I can meet her there line, Cloud should be saying "I think we can meet her there.", the translators just messed up. People often treat it as Cloud saying he wants to meet Aerith again, even though it's Tifa who expresses the desire to do so. Cloud was just reassuring her that if they die, at least they can see Aerith again.

And the FTOIL page says nothing about optionality in regards to Cloud and Tifa conveying their feelings without using words. It just says the confirmed their mutual feelings without using words, period, it says nothing about optionality, which either means Cloud and Tifa confirm mutual feelings in both Highwind scenes, or the HA version is canon.

And the I'm here for you(that's not even the line, it's "I...We're here for you.", which just shows how Cloud isn't very used to being a part of a group) and the fingers tingling, mouth dry, eyes burning aren't even necessarily romantic either, the former is Cloud being socially awkward while trying to comfort Aerith, and the latter is how Cloud's grief about Aerith's death manifests itself physically: His fingers tingled, his mouth grew dry, and his eyes burned with rage. I'm sure some of the other party members had the same reactions, especially the ones who were especially close to her, so at least Tifa and Yuffie.

 

[Sikozu]

I personally don't have a problem with anyone seeing the Cosmo Candle dialogue between Cloud and Aerith as a Clerithy moment, but when (some) Clerith shippers treat it like it's a confession of love(or all but) it's like, what?

But a very similar exchange between Cloud and Tifa being referred to as romantic is just "biased twisting". I mean:

When Tifa and Cloud were alone, Cloud said, “It’s not like you to be troubled by your thoughts.”

“It’s… Just the way I am.”

“No. You’re much more cheerful and strong. If you’ve forgotten the way you were then, I’ll be there to remind you.”

“You really will?”

“Probably,” Cloud said blushing.

Aerith and Tifa are both down, Cloud offers support. If the Aerith/Cloud one is romantic, then this one definitely is, too. I mean, he actually blushes.

 

[Vendel]

I personally don't have a problem with anyone seeing the Cosmo Candle dialogue between Cloud and Aerith as a Clerithy moment, but when (some) Clerith shippers treat it like it's a confession of love(or all but) it's like, what?

If it was it would be on the FTOIL page. I seem to recall pointing this out not long ago.

But I do like how all these "significant Clerith scenes" are either not treated as romantic by SE or just ignored for the most part. Take Cloud's various promises. He promises to protect Tifa and Aerith. But his promise to Tifa is so ingrained into his character it might as well be tattooed into his brain. The C/A folks like to believe that the C/A bodyguard promise holds as much if not more weight.

But let's take a quick look at his 10th Anv profile.

A Promise to Tifa, Etched in his Memory.

When Cloud left the village dreaming of being a SOLDIER, he swore to Tifa that he would come running to her rescue if she was in trouble. While it was Tifa who strong-armed him into making the promise, it seems that the idea that he must keep this vow was forever in Cloud’s mind. In BC he is obsessive about protecting people, and if he runs out of strength part way though he will mention the “promise.”
......
· FFVII/BC – Nibelheim
On the water tower, he announced to Tifa that he would become a SOLDIER. He promised to save her if she got into trouble, and left the village.

Damn that Tifa! Abusing Cloud and forcing this on his poor fragile mind. If only some woman would come along and offer you her body for protection.

 

[Kermitu Kleric Katie]

I think the fact that Cloud tried to ditch Aerith a few hours after promising to be her bodyguard shows how much he cares about that promise.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Let's not let snark toward outlandish retorts cloud our own view of things, though. Cloud did care about his promise to protect Aerith (he brings it up again on his own in the Shin-Ra.building), and he felt devastated by failing to save her.

Yes, he's in love with Tifa and the promise to her is the core of his persona, but he takes promises (and protecting others) in general to heart.

 

[Kermitu Kleric Katie]

Let's not let snark toward outlandish retorts cloud our own view of things, though. Cloud did care about his promise to protect Aerith (he brings it up again on his own in the Shin-Ra.building), and he felt devastated by failing to save her.

Yes, he's in love with Tifa and the promise to her is the core of his persona, but he takes promises (and protecting others) in general to heart.

It was a joke. I personally think it didn't mean much to him at first, but after he befriended Aerith it started to mean something to him.

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

Let's not let snark toward outlandish retorts cloud our own view of things, though. Cloud did care about his promise to protect Aerith (he brings it up again on his own in the Shin-Ra.building), and he felt devastated by failing to save her.

Yes, he's in love with Tifa and the promise to her is the core of his persona, but he takes promises (and protecting others) in general to heart.

It was a joke. I personally think it didn't mean much to him at first, but after he befriended Aerith it started to mean something to him.

On that note, let's not forget Cloud was involved in some extremely dangerous shit already. If you promise to protect someone/keep them safe, and you are yourself knowingly walking back into a life as a mercenary hired by domestic terrorists... yeah leaving them the hell at home is probably a good way to keep your promise

 

[Vendel]

On that note, let's not forget Cloud was involved in some extremely dangerous shit already. If you promise to protect someone/keep them safe, and you are yourself knowingly walking back into a life as a mercenary hired by domestic terrorists... yeah leaving them the hell at home is probably a good way to keep your promise

Ah, so cloud trying to sneak out of her house in the middle of the night to get back to Tifa shows just how much he loves Aerith?

/squee

 

[Morana]

I had more than once encountered the claims that Tifa forced Cloud to be her hero. This doesn't make sense because Cloud wanted to be her hero. This was the reason he decided to join the Soldier. So how could have Tifa forced him to do something he himself wanted in the first place?
His promise to Aerith to be her bodyguard is important to him too. I don't disagree with that but his promise to Tifa in a way marked him as a person.

 

[Sikozu]

Yeah, it's made clear in the Lifestream scene that Cloud wanted to be a hero, Tifa's in particular, before she ever got him to promise it at the well.

His desire to be a hero started when Cloud followed Tifa into the mountains and she fell from the bridge and went into a coma. Cloud said he was devastated and angry at himself that he was too weak to save her. He felt like Tifa blamed him and got out of control, getting into fights. He says that's the first time he heard of Sephiroth, and thought if he could be strong like him then he could get Tifa to notice him.

Some Cleriths say that he couldn't have really wanted to be her hero because he was clearly reluctant to make the promise in that scene. I think he was just taken aback. He believed she blamed him, he probably believed she thought he was as weak as he believed himself to be. So I think he was just surprised that she asked him to be her hero.

And yeah, someone who who is forced into something doesn't throw himself into the task as enthusiastically as Cloud did.

Oh, and I just wanted to confirm something real quick before I use this in my counterargument with the person I'm talking to. It's about the engraved in his heart/etched in his memory thing. I think I read here that in Japanese they were the same thing(that it means to never forget something and doesn't have automatic romantic connotations on its own?)

 

[Ryushikaze]

Yeah, it's made clear in the Lifestream scene that Cloud wanted to be a hero, Tifa's in particular, before she ever got him to promise it at the well.

His desire to be a hero started when Cloud followed Tifa into the mountains and she fell from the bridge and went into a coma. Cloud said he was devastated and angry at himself that he was too weak to save her. He felt like Tifa blamed him and got out of control, getting into fights. He says that's the first time he heard of Sephiroth, and thought if he could be strong like him then he could get Tifa to notice him.

Some Cleriths say that he couldn't have really wanted to be her hero because he was clearly reluctant to make the promise in that scene. I think he was just taken aback. He believed she blamed him, he probably believed she thought he was as weak as he believed himself to be. So I think he was just surprised that she asked him to be her hero.

And yeah, someone who who is forced into something doesn't throw himself into the task as enthusiastically as Cloud did.

Oh, and I just wanted to confirm something real quick before I use this in my counterargument with the person I'm talking to. It's about the engraved in his heart/etched in his memory thing. I think I read here that in Japanese they were the same thing(that it means to never forget something and doesn't have automatic romantic connotations on its own?)

They are the EXACT same phrase, and no, it does not have automatic romantic connotations. Someone's murder, for a particularly relevant example, could become 'engraved in your heart.'

Keep in mind that several words mean both heart and mind, and, well, yeah.

 

[Kermitu Kleric Katie]

I need you guys to vote for Tifa in this thread, since she's losing to Aerith:
http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/197341-final-fantasy-vii/64426450
You don't need to have a GameFAQs account to vote, so don't worry. Guess the cleriths aren't as diminished as we thought.

Cloti is finally beating Clack. Clack is still beating Clerith though.

 

[Strangelove]

i remember when people said tifa was trying to change cloud in ac because she didn't want him to just let himself die without a fight and that was wrong of her to force him to do that

which was a good time

like the time you got herpes

 

[Frostwave]

These days whenever I read a particularly redonkulous argument(for anything, not just the LTD), I read it in the voice of the Sicilian from The Princess Bride.

Seriously, try it. It makes everything more fun.

 

[I Am Not Me]

Cloti is finally beating Clack. Clack is still beating Clerith though.

BLASPHEMY, NOTHING BEATS CLACK.

THAT POLL IS A JUST BIASED CLOTI.

THAT WEBSITE IS A BIASED CLOTI.

EVERYONE IS JUST A BIASED CLOTI.

 

[Strangelove]

Spoiler: personally i hear this sound whenever this topic comes up

it's a sign that you're entering a world of nightmares and darkness

"what's happening... "

"oh, we're back on 'mutual feelings of friendship' again, as represented by this monster banging its head against a wall"

 

[Morana]

I remember reading how Tifa was a nagging bitch because she wanted Cloud to stop wallowing in misery and do something. Yes, she should have let him die so he could be with Aerith. Come on, even Aerith herself wanted him to fight. Not mention world would be gone if there wasn't for Tifa's so called nagging.

 

[Danseru-kun]

^

Also, Cloud could have died after he was shot by Yazoo but Aerith apparently brought him back. So even if Cloud commits suicide for Aerith, she'll (and maybe Zack too) bring him back to Tifa before he totally dies IMO.